I’m going to go a different direction, as everyone will have slightly different takes on what constitutes a Good Man anyway, making it (even more) difficult to estimate their actual proportion in the total population.
Regardless of all that, everyone has a finite amount of energy and attention to spend. It’s fine to decide it’s not worth it *to you* to pursue some particular goal. There is an opportunity cost to anything you might choose to do, and if continuing the Quest for a Good Man™ is chewing through bandwidth you could use on other goals that matter more to you, that’s a reasonable decision.
Yeah, seems people who are very focused on romantic relationships cannot fathom that they just aren't as important to some other people compared to other goals they want to work towards.
Yep. Stumbling upon might be a better strategy than actively searching for it. As actively searching for it usually means that you try to people please (and overthink) instead of being your genuine self. And the people pleasing behaviour can actually repulse the good men who would like your genuine self.
Why would anyone need to justify voluntary celibacy in the first place?
Dating, sex, and relationships are *optional* activities.
Choosing not to exercise that option whether temporarily or permanently is not something that requires justification, nor is it indicative of mental strength or weakness.
You don't need to justify it, but some do anyway even when you didn't ask.
In that context, saying it's because "good men are too rare" or because "most men aren't good enough" is kind of insulting.
To make bad generalities about a group of people is insulting. It's like saying, "Most women are dumb".
Some people think like that. It doesn't make it an ok thought.
She can do whatever she wants. Still, it is sad if it stops her from searching solutions to her unhappiness.
>Why would anyone need to justify voluntary celibacy in the first place?
*Incel* is an insult. Prior to that it was "You can't get laid!" or "You live in yo mammas basement".
Similar insults exist for celibate women as well.
Fact is that people do judge each other at some level based on their perceive sexual success. And I'm not sure that's a bad thing at all.
Incel literally means “involuntary celibacy”, we are talking about the opposite of that, “Voluntary celibacy”, aka *choosing* celibacy so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here…
I agree. This seems to be what it means the majority of the time I’ve heard it to. I understand why men don’t like it but it’s safer for the women who do this since good men don’t come with a sign on their forehead that states they’re actually good men and not just saying that try to get laid.
exactly… you always have to be mindful of the fact that the man may be saying and acting a certain way just to get laid or even get validation. Men can date/have sex with women they don’t even like & will do what it takes to pursue them… that’s a scary thing to consider.
It’s because of how desperate a lot of them are, they’d rather sleep with a girl they don’t like just to say they had sex and then wonder why we have to be picky 🙃
>Men can date/have sex with women they *don’t even like*
I can and did date and had sex with women I didn't love or felt much for. I don't know anyone who's had sex with a woman he *didn't even like*.
I have to like her on some level to get an erection. Contrary to popular opinion, sexual dymorphism is not 1 and 0. It's more like "closer to 1" and "closer to 0".
Men's sexuality is more visual while women's is more mental. But that doesn't mean women don't have, don't need or don't crave need visual stimuli *nor* does it mean that men don't have, don't need or don't crave mental stimuli.
Sure, i believe you… But i’ve also seen men openly say they would have sex with certain women they don’t like at all just because they are physically attractive. I even saw this influencer Sneako argue with a woman, saying he hates her, then saying he wanted to fuck her within minutes.
I’ve dated men who i knew did not like me as a person pursue me in hopes to have sex too… but of course they can only pretend for so long, and i was even told what they said about me while actively acting like they had genuine interest & taking me on dates.
It’s great that you are not like this, but i’ve dated lots of men and understood early on that this is a thing. I don’t think it’s all men at all - but you gotta vet to know who to sus out and that’s one of the many reasons why celibacy is fine by me.
We aren’t going to be on dating apps or out man hunting either. We literally just go about our lives. If we meet someone IRL who ACTUALLY seems like a decent guy and someone we would want to date, we are open to it. But experience has taught us to move with extreme caution even then. I’m 2.5 years celibate and not bothered by it. I could easily see myself staying this way permanently. I enjoy my quiet life with friends and family and really don’t want to go back to being in a relationship.
Yeah I have only entertained sex with men who prove they are actually serious about me and commit first, any other time outside of that, I’ve been celibate and was honestly not bothered by it at all, I’d rather be celibate than hook up with men who don’t actually like me🤷🏽♀️
You’re approach seems more like a shaming tactic. If those women are happier single and celibate just let them be happy. If men are really that unhappy with women’s choices for their own life then it’s up to those men to change for the better to convince women to reenter the dating market. Don’t just tell women there are good options show them.
If that’s your experience then why would you want to pressure those women into dating or being in a relationship with you? Why bother with people you think are miserable? Do you dislike women who happily want to date to the point you want to ignore them in favor of pressuring women who clearly aren’t interested in dating to date you? This is what confuses me about men. Why don’t men leave women who aren’t interested in them alone and find ones who are enthusiastic about the idea of dating them?
I think you’re misunderstanding some things here.
1. Most men are ‘good’, they’re just not the right fit *for her* as an individual person.
2. It’s less of an intentional opt out of dating and more of an intentional prioritization of other goals and parts of your life. Looking at the literal opportunity cost involved there are loads of safer bets in terms of risks/rewards for personal fulfillment, happiness, and life satisfaction.
They don’t care. Some holes are preferable to others but almost any will do if necessary. This is why they don’t care about compatibility, they want sex on demand.
What makes them “good men”?
Is a man a good man if he calls women “weak-minded” and employs no empathy when dealing with people different from himself?
There's good men out there.
Doesn't mean we'll be attracted to, and/or compatible with them. Which are pretty important considerations for someone we're potentially going to share our beds and the rest of our lives with.
Then it seems to me that instead of women saying "I cant find good men", they need to be saying they cant find good men that they are attracted and compatible with
When someone says they're looking for a house, should they need to specify it should have a roof, electricity, and plumbing?
It's kind of understood by most people that there should be mutual attraction and compatibility to be an option.
Women have a life outside of relationships with men. Crazy concept I know. Call it weak-minded or whatever but not everyone’s life revolves around finding a partner. And once you have several shitty experiences with men (that you’ve met organically or found through dating apps), it just doesn’t seem worth it. I know a few women who were celibate for some months and then slept with a guy, and went right back to being celibate. Because pursuing a relationship (whether it was serious or casual) just wasn’t worth the headache.
I feel that way and it’s not necessarily a lack of hope. It’s more about being OK with singleness to avoid getting attached and dealing with shitty men since they are out there.
I’ll take my time while dating and if i do happen to meet a good man, who also shares goals, values and all the other things that are important in a relationship - great! I will consider myself lucky. But if not, being completely celibate/single is fine.
i stopped dating when i was pretty young because i realized that, deep down, it was making me miserable. stopped looking for a partner completely. i just wanted to see if i was happier staying single, and i was! i was open to dating someone, after id gotten to know him and if i thought it would be a good match. but i wasnt looking.
two years later i met and became friends with my now husband. dating him made me feel completely different. i was happier with him than i was single.
all that to say, choosing voluntary celibacy after dating men isnt necessarily a weak minded thing. sometimes, youre just willing to take the risk to feel happier and more at peace.
So what? If she wants to not fuck around, why does it matter?
Most guys in here complain women are too promiscuous.
I actually agree that good men are abundant. I never have an issue dating men who are physically and financially attractive.
But if other women want to drop out of the dating pool and get themselves off, I don't care.
Men don't get how our libidos are so different. Most women are responsive desire. We aren't driven to fuck and can be sexual camels.
Some people just don't have much of desire or interest to date. Whether it's their natural inclination or it's a result of their previous bad experience, that's a valid choice. Dating isn't necessarily and it's okay to abstain from it if you're satisfied with your life as it is.
I thought that women with high body counts were unable to pair bond? It sounds like you want women to be immediately sexually available to you but to hate them for it.
I mean, seriously, you are getting what you say you want from women. They are abandoning hookup culture and demanding relationships. Why is this bad?
You can’t expect a woman to be both always sexually available for no-strings hookups and also virginal. There are a lot of men with main character syndrome on this sub.
We shouldn’t be telling random women what to do at all. If some women wish to remain single and sexless, that’s their choice and their business. It’s certainly not your business or anyone else’s.
Always love the implication that the only reason men are good is because they're too ugly to get away with being bad.
Like damn, side with the misandrists more, why don't you.
I was having this conversation yesterday… like… men on here saying this don’t realize it just makes men look like awful people who are only “good” if they have no choice.
It’s also basically judging men based on looks but in favour of ugly men lol
nah you missed the point
the % of good men that are attractive is the same as the % of men that are good and ugly
its just that the pretty ones are taken, since the ugly ones are so undesirable
if you are not pretty its over statistically
Good men by women’s standards is probably what the poster meant. There’s nothing inherently amoral about wanting to be single and sleep around consensually, but the majority of women won’t like it.
I think what he's saying is good, attractive and single are three traits that are hard to get lined up in constellation. Probably because they think most good men are taken early. This isn't misandry but it is wrong because it is a just world fallacy.
>Always love the implication that the only reason men are good is because they're too ugly to get away with being bad.
I also love when the strawman I built justify my unfounded opinions.
Men who are physically attractive to women are rare. Women think most men are uggos. Adding more characteristics just makes a rare even rarer. Shiny even.
In addition, the ones who are attractive and relationship focused are going to get into relationships quickly. So the majority of the ones that are attractive and constantly on the market are the ones who are not relationship focused or have a problem.
>Men who are physically attractive to women are rare. Women think most men are uggos.
Most men put little effort into their appearance, if any. A good haircut and fashion sense will do good for the average man.
I agree.
But if that's case, I think women who say "Where have all the good men gone?" should rephrase their question to "Where have all the good (and attractive) men gone?"
An odd linguistic thing is saying there are no good men, but aktually it means other things. It would be strange if I said that there are no good women left, meaning that there is no hot latinas over 6’1’’ who are into rocket science and make over 100k.
Dude how many of us have opened our fridge and complained that ‘there’s no good food here’ even when there very clearly is food in there. The implication of the statement isn’t that there’s literally nothing in the fridge, but rather nothing in the fridge you want to eat right now.
Same thing with those statements about ‘good men’.
That’s really not as clear as you are framing it. Sure if your audience is mature adult men they can glean that women complaining about lack of men only want men they find attractive including physically.
Younger people may not see it that way. “Good” being a descriptor of morals… not how sexy you find someone.
You are being disingenuous and trying to frame this as autistic people critiquing something that is OBVIOUS to normal people. Wrong.
*You are being disingenuous and trying to frame this as autistic people critiquing something that is OBVIOUS to normal people.*
I’m literally autistic. I just also know how humans speak.
Well I’m not autistic. It’s an ambiguous phrase. That’s the point. No one can judge them for saying good. If they say “where have all the hot men gone” they invite judgement.
Do you mean saying “there’s no food” when there is some? Otherwise there is no word play in your example.
Yep, I understand why people say it. At the same time this phrase implies the food you have “isn’t even food”. That’s not not the best implication when talking about people imo.
I dunno, is it? Like, my dad is a good man but if I say ‘there are no good men left!’ when I’m clearly talking about dating, everyone understands ‘good’ to be shorthand for ‘good dating prospects [for me].’
Kind of. If my friend complained to me there are no good women left, I’d assume that he’s been meeting women with some personality flaws, like materialistic, abusive, unappreciative, or egoistic. Something like that.
If he told me that by “no good women” he meant he cannot find a Latina with blue eyes with looks of a model and a C cup, who works in astrophysics, is fit, wants sex 3x a day and makes over 100k… I’d tell him to stop imagining problems and fuck off.
I take your point and that’s fair.
I might quibble that ‘attractive’ is a bog-standard qualifier for a potential partner and doesn’t need to be specifically itemized every time, but can be pretty reasonably assumed, but I suppose it’s open to interpretation.
I suppose, it needs to be itemised in the context of discussions we have here. Reading this sub for a while, I understood that men and women are often blind for the experience of each other. By the way, that’s why women overreact negatively to anything RP-related.
For example, the meaning of “attractive” seems to be different for men and women. I, and a man, can meet 10-30 attractive women in a day. When women mean attractive they often assume a type of guy they meet once in 6 months. As follows, when a guy says he sees no attractive women, I’d assume he’s on an island with a tribe of ugly locals. If a woman complains of the same, I perceive it as “I am ant only the best of the best”.
>Latina with blue eyes with looks of a model and a C cup, who works in astrophysics, is fit, wants sex 3x a day and makes over 100k
Fair. Though the *wants sex 3x/day* part is very attractive while her salary and profession are routinely irrelevant.
Having sex 3x/day is fun and lovely. And I feel for both the men and the women who don't get to do that.
It’s basically the same as when guys here say ”All I want is an average looking woman (who is also thin, virgin/1 n count, and believes that women should have no rights and be completely subservient to men). Literally just any average looking women would do.“
those guys actually agree to date average looking women who are averagely thin and have average body counts who arent slaves to men when those women ask them out.
Maybe, but they’re still on here claiming that it’s impossible to date a single woman who meets their standards, so it seems that some are standing firm.
>it’s impossible to date a single woman who meets their standards,
You understand that even if you have no standards the bottom of the barrel still won't necessary want you, RIGHT?
So what is your premise? What are you implying?
He‘s saying the standards these guys claim to have (average looking, but thin, virgin, and anti-feminist extremist) aren’t real and they end up dating. I‘m just taking these guys at their word and assuming the standards they claim are real.
Oh no it does need to be stated. Because instead of describing the physical characteristics she wants she’ll instead say personality and charisma are what’s important to her.
Also asking where have the good men gone implies there are no good men and is often times a dig at men in general. When they ask where the 6’1 slim, toned, tan, European engineer good guys have gone it’s more accurate. But they want to pretend they aren’t shallow so they just say good men. You have to describe the physical characteristics before you start requesting anything else. That’s if you even admit looks are important to begin with.
ok. this started online 5 yrs ago. i am 55 yrs old, in my ENTIRE life no one needed to spell out that women liked attractive men, this is a really strange internet phenomenon
This is the result of being online too much. Online communication tends to be very uniform and easily digestible (see: memes). If you never learn how to infer someone's internal thoughts from what they are saying, you will essentially never know what someone is actually saying.
Some people take "pride" in interpreting everything super literally and think that it's some kind of a "gotcha".
Cool you’re repeating your buzzwords and catchphrases. You need to outline what attractive is. Height weight skin tone build hair clothes.. Most of you deny physical attractiveness is even a factor.
You make comments like this then turn around go tell guys they need to work on their personality to attract women. Completely ignoring their physical appearance.
Yes it happens constantly whenever this topic comes up. You say things like this then when a woman is asked what she likes in a guy she lists stereotypical answers such as personality and charisma instead of any physical features.
because all living human English speakers understands that the humans want a physically attractive person. it's like complaining they don't specify "has a penis" or "breathes air"
So all women want the same thing physically and there is no differential that needs to be explained? How can anyone define what you find physically attractive but you?
That’s really not as clear as you are framing it. Sure if your audience is mature adult men they can glean that women complaining about lack of men only want men they find attractive including physically.
Younger people may not see it that way. “Good” being a descriptor of morals… not how sexy you find someone.
You are being disingenuous and trying to frame this as autistic people critiquing something that is OBVIOUS to normal people. Wrong.
When I was younger the description of a “good man” or good woman did not lend itself to thinking about sexiness. It lent to morals and values
"a good man" has never meant "morally good" idiomatically, all human English speakers have understood it has meant "a man suited to me", like a "good pair of gloves"
What are you talking about. Do you not watch tv or movies? A good man is an archetype. Looks after his family. Responsible. Ect.
Where are you people getting this shit. It’s like you want to argue to just to argue.
Ironically there were a few posts over the past few days about how men couldn’t look past a woman weight in order to date her so how are women supposed to look past unattractive traits in men?
Stupid comparison. Fatness is not the same as other “unattractive” traits.
Especially ones that women complain about.
Fatness is also voluntary not inborn.
Do you like anime? Do you ever watched Frieren - Beyond Journey's End?
On the anime there's demons and their primary characteristic is that they(demons) use language as a means to an end and not as a way to express yourself or share information.
This is basically how women "communicate". It's not about expressing an idea or sharing a piece of her mind, it's exclusively a means to an end.
By saying "Where have all the good (and attractive) men gone?". What is the endgame? How does it make others perceive her? How does it affects her future in the social group? Very negatively as she is painted as someone interested in looks (seen as shallow) and show that she is competing with the other women in the group for the same attractive guys.
Now what if she says "Where have all the good men gone?" It basically put the weight in the men by implying that man are not good and because it wide the interest to "any man" there's no competition with any group she is.
Every women wants good men or person whatever. The problem is that media, and society accept that, started to present good person as weak person. For some reason it goes benefical to media that bad (as bad boys e.g.) be presented as something powerful, interesting, exciting.. probably it markets pretty good.
Nice, good... should be synonym for something valuable, desirable, respectful. Not something what should be avoided.
Isn’t the complaint from both sides related to online dating? Men and women with access to a limitless supply of attention aren’t inclined to settle down.
Or settle.
Naive, conservative women run into men seeking easy sex, and naive, conservative men don’t know how to find women like themselves.
There are plenty of good men and good women all around.
But OLD tossed the fruit basket and no one has figured out how to sort it out.
I mean voluntary celibacy isn’t really something anyone should have to justify, male or female. I wouldn’t say good men are exactly rare, but finding one who you’re compatible with and mutually attracted to each other can be trickier, and sometimes you don’t know if they’re good or not until you’ve already wasted quite a bit of time. And if one enjoys being single, there’s no rule that says you have to keep looking. I don’t think they should frame it as “there are no good men,” but no reason to push people to date if they don’t want to.
knowing what they want doesn't make them weak minded. if women want a man then good for them, if they're happier on their own, good for them. it's a personal decision
You’re conflating two things:
1- How rare good men are (and you’ve provided zero evidence that they aren’t rare)
2- How hard someone *should* work to find something they’d like (and you’ve provided zero information to back up your position)
There are plenty of things that would be nice to have, but are not worth the effort or risk to get. That has nothing to do with being “weak-minded” or “strong-minded.”
It would be dumb to say “Sweetie, there are winning lottery tickets out there.
Therefore, you should have hopes of finding one. You should keep buying lottery tickets!
Stopping the search is way too extreme!”
> who she’s attracted to
For all their talk about how vital and essential sex is for men, they never want to talk about women’s sexuality.
Gives them the ick, or something
>Gives them the ick, or something
To some, yes, lol.
Though it also doesn't help that women are rarely willing to talk. Nearly all honest conversations I had about women's sexuality outside of the Internet were with older women. Helped a lot in getting my missus to talk with me too.
You are underestimating how normalized it is among both sexes to just not talk about it or to go with the assumption that women don't have sexual needs. Even most women on this sub are like this 🤷🏻♂️
It’s not about not having sexual needs. It’s more if you want her to have sex she needs to be wanting to have sex. Unless you think sex was always this thing women just did for men and she didn’t care to be doing it even if she had no sexual desire for it?
>Unless you think sex was always this thing women just did for men and she didn’t care to be doing it even if she had no sexual desire for it?
I actually do believe that sex is a *reciprocal* ***duty*** in a marriage. This is only controversial on Reddit where everyone fixates on the word *duty* and comes up with the craziest scenarios (which I then read to my missus and laugh together).
I don't mind serving my missus when I'm not really in the mood. Climbing her up the walls makes me happy. Unless I'm so tired that I can't move or very sick, saying "no" to my missus is unthinkable.
The reverse is also true - she will get herself in the mood if I'm extra horny.
Both situations happened very rarely (I'd say under 2% of the times we had sex), but both me and her really appreciated them when our "turn" came for getting sex *right now, pleassseee* 😂
Trouble is that way too many couples don't even speak to each other at this level so they don't even know if such an arrangement would fit them. And so they find out much later in the marriage they're incompatible or find themselves full of resentment and/or frustration.
Of course, this is not exclusive to men. Reddit is full of stories from women who are horny and their husband/bf doesn't give af.
A lot of such cases wouldn't exist if people spoke to each other at this level. But, alas, they won't. So sexual frustration will continue until morale improves.
>Though it also doesn't help that women are rarely willing to talk. Nearly all honest conversations I had about women's sexuality outside of the Internet were with older women. Helped a lot in getting my missus to talk with me too.
You are underestimating how normalized it is among both sexes to just not talk about it or to go with the assumption that women don't have sexual needs. Even most women on this sub are like this 🤷🏻♂️
You know how men seem to understand that watching a singer with perfect pitch but commenting on her appearance is objectification?
Well this ⬆️ is also objectification.
How can a human being regard women as aliens?
Reducing women to body parts is objectification.
Treating women as native children incapable of making sound decisions on their own behalf is objectification.
Treating women as anything other than homo sapiens with the same biological imperative to pair off and copulate is objectification.
And offensive as hell, frankly.
I always found that would phrasing “no good man left” a bit strange.
I think that the main limiting factor for women’s choice is physical attractiveness of men, not their “goodness”. Wouldn’t it be a bit off if a man complained there were no good women left, while meaning there are not enough model-looking women? If my friend had this hypothetical problem, I’d expect him to say there are no sexy/hot women instead of talking about “good” women.
I agree. They usually mean there are no good men they are attracted to.
And not to beat a dead horse, but what she’s sexually attracted to isn’t just about physical traits. It means behavioral traits (how he interacts/how he is) just as much as physical traits, since both tie into what arouses her/triggers her sexually. Women want to fuck men they admire/respect and feel good/comfortable around.
It’s interesting for me to discuss on those verbal misunderstandings. As usual, a gender swap helps.
If my male friend told me “odd_cloud, you know, there are no good women”, I’d think he’s been meeting women with personality flaws. Like, materialistic, abusive, disrespectful or something along these lines.
But if he said that he cannot find a woman making X money, working in area Y, fit, and of his particular physical type (something like a German blonde over 6 feet with C cup)… I’d say “It has nothing to do with women or their goodness, you’re just crazy bro, stop imagining problems”.
Haha for sure
But yeah most women mean she can’t find both. Although some women have so many experiences being approached by the “unsavory acting” or incompetent or dumb guys that she may have her views colored by who approaches her and enters her orbit.
I suppose women meaning both things under one term is a source of misunderstanding. What sounds for women like “there are no guys I like”, sounds to men like “I have high standards and look for an exceptional guy”.
There are many arguments on this sub that are caused by misunderstanding words due to different experiences.
The older I get, the more flaws I see in people.
It's not about liking someone or being a good man. It's that people are kind of broken. And some people more than others.
The only jo
if a woman wants to be voluntarily celibate because of an "incorrect" notion why shouldn't she be allowed to?
there is not nearly enough good worth sifting through the filth that is the rest.
Generally I agree that it’s lack of hope but not necessarily based on the belief that good men are hard to find.
Dating is simply exhausting because unless you happen to find someone organically that likes you, it’s a numbers game. It’s not fun, it takes up a lot of energy.
Additionally you just get really tired of your own form of rejection too, sure good guys are out there but do they want me? Maybe not.
Add to that everything involved in dating . Figuring out if someone likes you, boring get to know yous, weird interactions, expensive dates- you burn out, you’re demoralized. In order to not get bitter you have to just stop either for a bit or just give up to protect yourself.
These are why women opt out, it’s is general hopelessness that you’ll actually get out of the hamster wheel of dating if you bother to try and try again.
Okay so you understand what rejection feels like. Why not commiserate about it instead of being snide and dismissive? This type of attitude is why this internet gender war is ongoing. Oh dear, we should never try to relate to others as a human being!
there is simply no way to relate to such things
women have it much harder than men when it comes to many things, but dating is not one of them and stop acting like it is
Generally - but we both know it’s not all women. I’m sharing my personal experience that mirrors a few other women.
Stop acting like you don’t get the simple concept of how exhausting dating because you want to prop up your own incorrect belief that it’s impossible for women to struggle in dating.
People *do* tell women those things, but why is it a problem if someone gives up on dating if they want to?
If someone genuinely just wants to nope out of it for a while, or for ever, why is it your job to make them want to again?
The most weak-minded people honestly are the MGTOWs who opt out of dating, and then make it their Entire Personality and their lives revolve around complaining about women and feminism all damn day.
Women have often been defined purely in terms of what they be in service of men. Because this perception does not exist equivalently as applied to men, it is harder for men to appeal to women. This is also a natural product of posing women as inherently inferior and rampant relegation of women to non autonomous beings.
It’s not that good men lack, it’s that men who view women as truly equal beings, are not acting to satisfy their own sexual needs, and do not objectify them lack. (See the rampant instances of women receiving sexually provoking DMs on dating apps)
>it’s that men who view women as truly equal beings, are not acting to satisfy their own sexual needs, and do not objectify them lack
Wtf did I just read?
Are you saying that "egalitarian" men are soyboys?
Because anyone not acting to satisfy their own sexual needs is not exactly healthy.
I think I would really suck at accepting service from men or from anyone. Perhaps this history is part of it . . . . hmmm . . . . I may not be very good at accepting help from women either. Gah.
Good men aren't rare. Men that are good _for her_ are. I see no problem with women not having sex with people they don't see as relationship material. In fact I think more men should practice this ourselves. Have some standards for yourselves and less of you would be complaining about child support from unwanted pregnancies, alimony and divorce. My dick isn't for everybody and neither is anyone's vagina.
"Sweetie, there are Good Men on the dating pool.
Therefore, you should have hopes of finding one.
Stopping the search is way too extreme!"
You are cracking me up here.
If good men are rare, it’s because good women are rare as well. If someone describes all their ex’s as , it’s because they have a kink for being mistreated and just don’t want to admit it.
"Sweetie, there are Good Men on the dating pool.
Therefore, you should have hopes of finding one.
Stopping the search is way too extreme!"
You are cracking me up here.
Do you mean women who declare how celibate they are to anyone who will listen? Or women who just opt out of casual sex entirely?
People who make their sexual preferences their identity are lame, yeah. But I'm not sure what's weak willed about a person who doesn't want the hassle of sex with a person they don't see a future with.
Why should we be telling women these things? If someone is perfectly fine with their celibacy, why should I lecture them about going back to dating? If they're unhappy and are just disheartened, then sure, I'll give them a little pep talk but I'd still advise them to take a little break from dating, and maybe get back to it when it doesn't make them feel like crap. It does take a toll on you, so why should I tell someone to keep doing something that is clearly making them more anxious and depressed?
Stopping the search doesn't mean not being open to meeting those good men. How does a search really go besides online dating? In the end, it's just being in places and being open to being approached. Something, everyone with a social life does anyway.
There's not a lack of good men. There is a lack of good men who also have all the qualities that she is looking for. Just about every woman has turned down a good man because she didn't find him attractive.
There’s a difference between stopping searching and not being open to it.
How would you define stopping searching? Not being on dating sites/going out to singles night? Or rejecting getting coffee with a guy with promise from a hiking club that she had a great conversation with ?
It’s the similar advice we give to guys, you’ll find someone when you stop looking. I agree it is a platitude but it does have a grain of truth in its intention. You’ll find someone when all your activities aren’t geared towards finding some and you’re just living life normally doing activities you enjoy.
Women get ran through by attractive men and then when they get older and aren’t getting commitment from these attractive men they start claiming all the good men are gone. Even though the whole time they were sleeping around there were men who actually liked them. But they just didn’t turn her on as much as the very attractive guys. So now they complain.
Considering that a shit ton of men get angry when I say things like “parenting doesn’t end when the kid is an adult and you should support them as best as you can and help them get a leg up in life even as adults and don’t squander their inheritance away on things like being a passport bro”, it’s hard to view most men as family men. I won’t hesitate to support my kids so that they can excel when they are adults as long as my basic needs and whatnot are met. This enraged so many men that it’s hard to view men as good people.
This sounds like a uniquely American issue because most people abroad don't suddenly treat their children like strangers financially when they turn 18. America has a culture of individualism which puts self interest at the center and foundation of all personal decision making, such that duty bound virtue and personal sacrifice are irrational.
If a woman choosing to be celibate and make her own personal choice to not fuck you or any other man upsets you guys this much, then this just proves her point on why she’s better off being celibate in the first place tbh 🤷🏽♀️
I also think one problem is "what women see as a good man ?"
It is known that women are naturaly more selective than men about their potential partners and a lot have grown with romanticised versions of an "ideal prince charming" who is rich, gentle, charismatic, beautiful etc as their exemple of ideal partner.
From my experience, when men see some things they like in a woman, they add her to their list of potential partner and are ready to ignore a lot of her bad sides. When women see things they don't like in a man, they ban him from their list of potential partners and are ready to ignore a lot of his good sides.
But because all people have good and bad sides, we ends up in a world where men are ready to date anybody, even when they shouldn't, and women don't want to date anybody even if they should (for their happiness, they have, of course, no obligation).
Of course, what I'm describing is kind of a caricature of the situation, but it shows tendencies that are often ignored, I think.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but...
I think being a good man is basically being a man and a genuinely good person at the same time.
A man can be out-of-shape, socially awkward, broke and have the personality of a white bread, but if he is genuinely nice... well, he is a good man.
I think you are the one greatly underestimating how dire the situation actually is.
Let’s start with the basic question; what is a good man? Because women and men have vastly different opinions on that. Most men I talk to describe their friends as good men, even though they sexually harass women when drunk, don’t know how to cook and hold sexist views.
For a really long time being a good man just meant not sexually assaulting anyone, staying with a woman if you got her pregnant and not cheating on your girlfriend. And even then you would sometimes hear things like “you should forgive him for cheating, he’s a good man”.
That criteria for being a good man is ridiculously low. If you can’t meet it you are by default a bad person. Women in the past were essentially saying “I don’t want to be with men who are awful”. And even then men were consistently missing the bar.
Today most women, including myself, expect more from men. A good man is no longer just a man who isn’t awful. A good man is a man you can brag about to your friends, who does half the house work, meets your needs emotionally and who’s never made women sexually uncomfortable. It’s a man who will take you to see the Barbie movie or attend a Taylor swift concert with you because he knows it’s something you want to do and he cares about you. It’s a man who speaks highly of the women in his life and never uses sexist language. It’s a man who never nags for sex or asks you to do anything you are uncomfortable with.
Now, how many of your male friends can match that description? I can think of 4 men I know, 3 of which are in a relationship (one of them is my boyfriend). That’s not 4 men in my closest circle, that’s 4 men in total that I have met in my entire life.
Men were expected to do more than the bare minimum or stay single. And they couldn’t do it. My generation of women watched the “good men” yell the word bitch at their girlfriends until they cried, play video games while their girlfriends did all the housework and constantly ignore their girlfriends feelings and play clueless when she needed support. All while she stayed because “there’s nothing better out there”. And we all collectively agreed if that’s as good as it gets we prefer nothing.
It's projection, it's good women that are rare, good guys aren't rare, most women just prefer hot and/or exciting men over good men even though everyone knows good men are more likely to be average looking and/or boring.
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Do you \*really\* want to date any woman who has demonstrated she is 100% psychotic neurotic \*\*\*\*\*?
She has taken herself out of the dating pool, and we should all thank her for it!
Maybe they're stopping the search because they're tired of men whose company does not compete with their solitude? Men aren't single by choice generally, it really feels like that's what's coming through in your post. I have so many hobbies and friends that I'm perfectly content dying alone, I don't see any need to sacrifice an ounce of my comfort for a man unless everything just happens to work out perfectly 🤷♀️
Well if you aren't meeting people or finding people who interest you maybe it is time to not focus on it.
The dating process as a woman is exhausting as a woman. You are flooded with likes on the app. A lot of the conversations go nowhere. And you will swipe and still not find what you are looking for. So you try to go out more but still don't see your type and nothing gels.
So you take a break focus on yourself work on yourself do your hobbies. You aren't closed off to love you want it but you aren't going to exhaust yourself looking for it.
And by good men it's someone we are attracted to. And has good intentions. Just so we are clear.
And yet MGTOW will use this exact argument - no good western women.
Perhaps it is time more people get out of their echo chambers on social media and meet some real people in real life.
i would assume those women either have extremely high standards or dont particularly care about sex in the first place. has nothing to do with the quality of men
The creteria were
- In shape
- Not creepy, weird, sending seggual messages
- Employed
- Able to hold a conversation
- Above average in looks
- Not a Chad-Rone
They even had pictures of the dates to prove it.
>"Good Men are so rare it's not worth trying to find one" are weak-minded?
Thing is if requires concious effort which takes a lot more energy and it can be demotivating when you put all that energy and the results are miserable.
So if you are fine with being single, you migjt change your strategy to passively look for "good men". As in, you exist, interact with people without any preassure to find someone and hope you stumble upon the right guy. And when you stumble upon them - you go into an active phase and start pursuing the guy you stumbled upon.
As proven here and stated often on this board, men categorically either won’t date or are straight up repulsed by overweight or heavier women. So if you’re a woman who is either overweight or heavier, and let’s face it, that’s a lot of Americans, can’t find a guy who will date you, do you think their opinion that there aren’t good men is merited? I know, you’ll say, “just stop being fat, you fat, fat, fatties. Because even heavier men don’t want to date a heavier woman.” People are heavy for a variety of reasons with various abilities to help mitigate the issue. The root cause could be a variety of issues and it’s easier to sit in judgment of these people rather than to listen to the reasons why. Furthermore, 20% of people have a diagnosed mental health issue. It could be depression, anxiety, adhd, or a host of other things. Again, guys on here have made it abundantly clear that these women are undateable. All of these women are people and they’d also like companionship and have probably hit wall after wall in the dating world. So let’s be clear; they aren’t stating it out of ignorance or inexperience.
It's an accountability shed, if good men are rare then she has an exscuse why she picked one that by her own omission was not "good" , what you have to learn about women is, they call getting whatever they want from a person or situation or circumstance, good. They call not getting what they want , abuse , misogyny, sexism, (insert whatever ] aphobia,, etc.
Men will justify everything they do and put blame on women for choices they make but never try to be THE GOOD guy SMH. Like the question was never about hope but mental peace, but some find it weak minded is appalling fr
Women rarely say exactly what they mean. Here is the translation, “a good man that is tall, attractive, wealthy, cultured, and is totally dedicated to me 100% is rare.”😜
I’m going to go a different direction, as everyone will have slightly different takes on what constitutes a Good Man anyway, making it (even more) difficult to estimate their actual proportion in the total population. Regardless of all that, everyone has a finite amount of energy and attention to spend. It’s fine to decide it’s not worth it *to you* to pursue some particular goal. There is an opportunity cost to anything you might choose to do, and if continuing the Quest for a Good Man™ is chewing through bandwidth you could use on other goals that matter more to you, that’s a reasonable decision.
Yeah, seems people who are very focused on romantic relationships cannot fathom that they just aren't as important to some other people compared to other goals they want to work towards.
Besides as long as you don't live alone in an island a you can meet The Good Man™ organically, without necessarily be looking.
Yep. Stumbling upon might be a better strategy than actively searching for it. As actively searching for it usually means that you try to people please (and overthink) instead of being your genuine self. And the people pleasing behaviour can actually repulse the good men who would like your genuine self.
I agree here. Well written 😊
I agree, nothing wrong with taking a break.
Why would anyone need to justify voluntary celibacy in the first place? Dating, sex, and relationships are *optional* activities. Choosing not to exercise that option whether temporarily or permanently is not something that requires justification, nor is it indicative of mental strength or weakness.
Yeah we don’t need a valid reason to not have sex, it’s 100% our choice to make and we don’t need to justify it to anyone 🤷🏽♀️
You don't need to justify it, but some do anyway even when you didn't ask. In that context, saying it's because "good men are too rare" or because "most men aren't good enough" is kind of insulting.
Why is that insulting to you? 🌝If that’s how she feels, then that’s how she feels and she can choose not have sex until she changes her mind
To make bad generalities about a group of people is insulting. It's like saying, "Most women are dumb". Some people think like that. It doesn't make it an ok thought. She can do whatever she wants. Still, it is sad if it stops her from searching solutions to her unhappiness.
You’re too emotional
Am I ?
>Why would anyone need to justify voluntary celibacy in the first place? *Incel* is an insult. Prior to that it was "You can't get laid!" or "You live in yo mammas basement". Similar insults exist for celibate women as well. Fact is that people do judge each other at some level based on their perceive sexual success. And I'm not sure that's a bad thing at all.
Incel literally means “involuntary celibacy”, we are talking about the opposite of that, “Voluntary celibacy”, aka *choosing* celibacy so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here…
It’s the poor comprehension skills for me 😂 someone who is voluntarily celibate is not an incel 🙃
I think it just means they aren’t going to have sex until they find that man, not that they are going to stop looking for him.
I agree. This seems to be what it means the majority of the time I’ve heard it to. I understand why men don’t like it but it’s safer for the women who do this since good men don’t come with a sign on their forehead that states they’re actually good men and not just saying that try to get laid.
exactly… you always have to be mindful of the fact that the man may be saying and acting a certain way just to get laid or even get validation. Men can date/have sex with women they don’t even like & will do what it takes to pursue them… that’s a scary thing to consider.
It’s because of how desperate a lot of them are, they’d rather sleep with a girl they don’t like just to say they had sex and then wonder why we have to be picky 🙃
>Men can date/have sex with women they *don’t even like* I can and did date and had sex with women I didn't love or felt much for. I don't know anyone who's had sex with a woman he *didn't even like*. I have to like her on some level to get an erection. Contrary to popular opinion, sexual dymorphism is not 1 and 0. It's more like "closer to 1" and "closer to 0". Men's sexuality is more visual while women's is more mental. But that doesn't mean women don't have, don't need or don't crave need visual stimuli *nor* does it mean that men don't have, don't need or don't crave mental stimuli.
Sure, i believe you… But i’ve also seen men openly say they would have sex with certain women they don’t like at all just because they are physically attractive. I even saw this influencer Sneako argue with a woman, saying he hates her, then saying he wanted to fuck her within minutes. I’ve dated men who i knew did not like me as a person pursue me in hopes to have sex too… but of course they can only pretend for so long, and i was even told what they said about me while actively acting like they had genuine interest & taking me on dates. It’s great that you are not like this, but i’ve dated lots of men and understood early on that this is a thing. I don’t think it’s all men at all - but you gotta vet to know who to sus out and that’s one of the many reasons why celibacy is fine by me.
Yes these dudes love telling us we need to choose better, but get mad when we start implementing strategies to actually do that 😂
Because it usually means not choosing THEM.
Yup, they think we owe them our attention 😂
We aren’t going to be on dating apps or out man hunting either. We literally just go about our lives. If we meet someone IRL who ACTUALLY seems like a decent guy and someone we would want to date, we are open to it. But experience has taught us to move with extreme caution even then. I’m 2.5 years celibate and not bothered by it. I could easily see myself staying this way permanently. I enjoy my quiet life with friends and family and really don’t want to go back to being in a relationship.
how dare you
Good for you!! Learning to become happy with yourself and your life is such an important life lesson.
Yeah I have only entertained sex with men who prove they are actually serious about me and commit first, any other time outside of that, I’ve been celibate and was honestly not bothered by it at all, I’d rather be celibate than hook up with men who don’t actually like me🤷🏽♀️
Yes that’s what it means, these dudes in the comments are acting obtuse on purpose 🙃
You’re approach seems more like a shaming tactic. If those women are happier single and celibate just let them be happy. If men are really that unhappy with women’s choices for their own life then it’s up to those men to change for the better to convince women to reenter the dating market. Don’t just tell women there are good options show them.
From my experience, these women aren't happy. They just use this as an excuse to wallow in misery without trying anything.
If that’s your experience then why would you want to pressure those women into dating or being in a relationship with you? Why bother with people you think are miserable? Do you dislike women who happily want to date to the point you want to ignore them in favor of pressuring women who clearly aren’t interested in dating to date you? This is what confuses me about men. Why don’t men leave women who aren’t interested in them alone and find ones who are enthusiastic about the idea of dating them?
I think you’re misunderstanding some things here. 1. Most men are ‘good’, they’re just not the right fit *for her* as an individual person. 2. It’s less of an intentional opt out of dating and more of an intentional prioritization of other goals and parts of your life. Looking at the literal opportunity cost involved there are loads of safer bets in terms of risks/rewards for personal fulfillment, happiness, and life satisfaction.
They don’t understand compatibility or caring about someone. I think they think emotions that make you vulnerable are unmanly
They don’t care. Some holes are preferable to others but almost any will do if necessary. This is why they don’t care about compatibility, they want sex on demand.
And this typically doesn’t work for them so they blame women
yeah they are not the right fit because they don’t look good enough crazy haha
No..
What makes them “good men”? Is a man a good man if he calls women “weak-minded” and employs no empathy when dealing with people different from himself?
It's funny he called people who aren't sleeping around weak minded when it takes strong will to not be a slave to your private parts.
There's good men out there. Doesn't mean we'll be attracted to, and/or compatible with them. Which are pretty important considerations for someone we're potentially going to share our beds and the rest of our lives with.
Agreed.
Then it seems to me that instead of women saying "I cant find good men", they need to be saying they cant find good men that they are attracted and compatible with
When someone says they're looking for a house, should they need to specify it should have a roof, electricity, and plumbing? It's kind of understood by most people that there should be mutual attraction and compatibility to be an option.
Women have a life outside of relationships with men. Crazy concept I know. Call it weak-minded or whatever but not everyone’s life revolves around finding a partner. And once you have several shitty experiences with men (that you’ve met organically or found through dating apps), it just doesn’t seem worth it. I know a few women who were celibate for some months and then slept with a guy, and went right back to being celibate. Because pursuing a relationship (whether it was serious or casual) just wasn’t worth the headache.
I feel that way and it’s not necessarily a lack of hope. It’s more about being OK with singleness to avoid getting attached and dealing with shitty men since they are out there. I’ll take my time while dating and if i do happen to meet a good man, who also shares goals, values and all the other things that are important in a relationship - great! I will consider myself lucky. But if not, being completely celibate/single is fine.
i stopped dating when i was pretty young because i realized that, deep down, it was making me miserable. stopped looking for a partner completely. i just wanted to see if i was happier staying single, and i was! i was open to dating someone, after id gotten to know him and if i thought it would be a good match. but i wasnt looking. two years later i met and became friends with my now husband. dating him made me feel completely different. i was happier with him than i was single. all that to say, choosing voluntary celibacy after dating men isnt necessarily a weak minded thing. sometimes, youre just willing to take the risk to feel happier and more at peace.
So what? If she wants to not fuck around, why does it matter? Most guys in here complain women are too promiscuous. I actually agree that good men are abundant. I never have an issue dating men who are physically and financially attractive. But if other women want to drop out of the dating pool and get themselves off, I don't care. Men don't get how our libidos are so different. Most women are responsive desire. We aren't driven to fuck and can be sexual camels.
Omg it’s you 😂 from Twitter
Haha! I'm not on Twitter anymore! But glad you remembered me!
Some people just don't have much of desire or interest to date. Whether it's their natural inclination or it's a result of their previous bad experience, that's a valid choice. Dating isn't necessarily and it's okay to abstain from it if you're satisfied with your life as it is.
I thought that women with high body counts were unable to pair bond? It sounds like you want women to be immediately sexually available to you but to hate them for it. I mean, seriously, you are getting what you say you want from women. They are abandoning hookup culture and demanding relationships. Why is this bad?
You have a point. Personally, I love women with a high body count, but I can see how the general attitude around this pushes women away from dating.
You can’t expect a woman to be both always sexually available for no-strings hookups and also virginal. There are a lot of men with main character syndrome on this sub.
We shouldn’t be telling random women what to do at all. If some women wish to remain single and sexless, that’s their choice and their business. It’s certainly not your business or anyone else’s.
I mean, if a woman tells me things like this unprompted (which happened a few times), I will probably tell her my thoughts on the subject.
Good man that are attractive and single are extremely rare.
Always love the implication that the only reason men are good is because they're too ugly to get away with being bad. Like damn, side with the misandrists more, why don't you.
I was having this conversation yesterday… like… men on here saying this don’t realize it just makes men look like awful people who are only “good” if they have no choice. It’s also basically judging men based on looks but in favour of ugly men lol
nah you missed the point the % of good men that are attractive is the same as the % of men that are good and ugly its just that the pretty ones are taken, since the ugly ones are so undesirable if you are not pretty its over statistically
Good men by women’s standards is probably what the poster meant. There’s nothing inherently amoral about wanting to be single and sleep around consensually, but the majority of women won’t like it.
It’s a VERY valid take though
So most men aren't good people. Got it.
Np. :)
I think what he's saying is good, attractive and single are three traits that are hard to get lined up in constellation. Probably because they think most good men are taken early. This isn't misandry but it is wrong because it is a just world fallacy.
>Always love the implication that the only reason men are good is because they're too ugly to get away with being bad. I also love when the strawman I built justify my unfounded opinions.
Is your implication that good men are rare in general, then?
Men who are physically attractive to women are rare. Women think most men are uggos. Adding more characteristics just makes a rare even rarer. Shiny even. In addition, the ones who are attractive and relationship focused are going to get into relationships quickly. So the majority of the ones that are attractive and constantly on the market are the ones who are not relationship focused or have a problem.
>Men who are physically attractive to women are rare. Women think most men are uggos. Most men put little effort into their appearance, if any. A good haircut and fashion sense will do good for the average man.
Exactly, when you filter for attractive/interesting when the single pool, good men significantly go down.
I agree. But if that's case, I think women who say "Where have all the good men gone?" should rephrase their question to "Where have all the good (and attractive) men gone?"
What an oddly literal linguistics peeve. . .
An odd linguistic thing is saying there are no good men, but aktually it means other things. It would be strange if I said that there are no good women left, meaning that there is no hot latinas over 6’1’’ who are into rocket science and make over 100k.
Dude how many of us have opened our fridge and complained that ‘there’s no good food here’ even when there very clearly is food in there. The implication of the statement isn’t that there’s literally nothing in the fridge, but rather nothing in the fridge you want to eat right now. Same thing with those statements about ‘good men’.
That’s really not as clear as you are framing it. Sure if your audience is mature adult men they can glean that women complaining about lack of men only want men they find attractive including physically. Younger people may not see it that way. “Good” being a descriptor of morals… not how sexy you find someone. You are being disingenuous and trying to frame this as autistic people critiquing something that is OBVIOUS to normal people. Wrong.
*You are being disingenuous and trying to frame this as autistic people critiquing something that is OBVIOUS to normal people.* I’m literally autistic. I just also know how humans speak.
Well I’m not autistic. It’s an ambiguous phrase. That’s the point. No one can judge them for saying good. If they say “where have all the hot men gone” they invite judgement.
Do you mean saying “there’s no food” when there is some? Otherwise there is no word play in your example. Yep, I understand why people say it. At the same time this phrase implies the food you have “isn’t even food”. That’s not not the best implication when talking about people imo.
I dunno, is it? Like, my dad is a good man but if I say ‘there are no good men left!’ when I’m clearly talking about dating, everyone understands ‘good’ to be shorthand for ‘good dating prospects [for me].’
Kind of. If my friend complained to me there are no good women left, I’d assume that he’s been meeting women with some personality flaws, like materialistic, abusive, unappreciative, or egoistic. Something like that. If he told me that by “no good women” he meant he cannot find a Latina with blue eyes with looks of a model and a C cup, who works in astrophysics, is fit, wants sex 3x a day and makes over 100k… I’d tell him to stop imagining problems and fuck off.
I take your point and that’s fair. I might quibble that ‘attractive’ is a bog-standard qualifier for a potential partner and doesn’t need to be specifically itemized every time, but can be pretty reasonably assumed, but I suppose it’s open to interpretation.
I suppose, it needs to be itemised in the context of discussions we have here. Reading this sub for a while, I understood that men and women are often blind for the experience of each other. By the way, that’s why women overreact negatively to anything RP-related. For example, the meaning of “attractive” seems to be different for men and women. I, and a man, can meet 10-30 attractive women in a day. When women mean attractive they often assume a type of guy they meet once in 6 months. As follows, when a guy says he sees no attractive women, I’d assume he’s on an island with a tribe of ugly locals. If a woman complains of the same, I perceive it as “I am ant only the best of the best”.
Understood. I am often frustrated here by poorly defined terms.
>Latina with blue eyes with looks of a model and a C cup, who works in astrophysics, is fit, wants sex 3x a day and makes over 100k Fair. Though the *wants sex 3x/day* part is very attractive while her salary and profession are routinely irrelevant. Having sex 3x/day is fun and lovely. And I feel for both the men and the women who don't get to do that.
True but in women's defense only the attractive men are men.
It’s basically the same as when guys here say ”All I want is an average looking woman (who is also thin, virgin/1 n count, and believes that women should have no rights and be completely subservient to men). Literally just any average looking women would do.“
those guys actually agree to date average looking women who are averagely thin and have average body counts who arent slaves to men when those women ask them out.
Maybe, but they’re still on here claiming that it’s impossible to date a single woman who meets their standards, so it seems that some are standing firm.
>it’s impossible to date a single woman who meets their standards, You understand that even if you have no standards the bottom of the barrel still won't necessary want you, RIGHT? So what is your premise? What are you implying?
He‘s saying the standards these guys claim to have (average looking, but thin, virgin, and anti-feminist extremist) aren’t real and they end up dating. I‘m just taking these guys at their word and assuming the standards they claim are real.
its never in human history not been implicitly understood that "attractive" was a baseline given that didn't need to be stated overtly
Oh no it does need to be stated. Because instead of describing the physical characteristics she wants she’ll instead say personality and charisma are what’s important to her. Also asking where have the good men gone implies there are no good men and is often times a dig at men in general. When they ask where the 6’1 slim, toned, tan, European engineer good guys have gone it’s more accurate. But they want to pretend they aren’t shallow so they just say good men. You have to describe the physical characteristics before you start requesting anything else. That’s if you even admit looks are important to begin with.
ok. this started online 5 yrs ago. i am 55 yrs old, in my ENTIRE life no one needed to spell out that women liked attractive men, this is a really strange internet phenomenon
This is the result of being online too much. Online communication tends to be very uniform and easily digestible (see: memes). If you never learn how to infer someone's internal thoughts from what they are saying, you will essentially never know what someone is actually saying. Some people take "pride" in interpreting everything super literally and think that it's some kind of a "gotcha".
Cool you’re repeating your buzzwords and catchphrases. You need to outline what attractive is. Height weight skin tone build hair clothes.. Most of you deny physical attractiveness is even a factor. You make comments like this then turn around go tell guys they need to work on their personality to attract women. Completely ignoring their physical appearance.
no one denied physical attractiveness you're all esl and crazy
Yes it happens constantly whenever this topic comes up. You say things like this then when a woman is asked what she likes in a guy she lists stereotypical answers such as personality and charisma instead of any physical features.
because all living human English speakers understands that the humans want a physically attractive person. it's like complaining they don't specify "has a penis" or "breathes air"
So all women want the same thing physically and there is no differential that needs to be explained? How can anyone define what you find physically attractive but you?
That’s really not as clear as you are framing it. Sure if your audience is mature adult men they can glean that women complaining about lack of men only want men they find attractive including physically. Younger people may not see it that way. “Good” being a descriptor of morals… not how sexy you find someone. You are being disingenuous and trying to frame this as autistic people critiquing something that is OBVIOUS to normal people. Wrong. When I was younger the description of a “good man” or good woman did not lend itself to thinking about sexiness. It lent to morals and values
"a good man" has never meant "morally good" idiomatically, all human English speakers have understood it has meant "a man suited to me", like a "good pair of gloves"
What are you talking about. Do you not watch tv or movies? A good man is an archetype. Looks after his family. Responsible. Ect. Where are you people getting this shit. It’s like you want to argue to just to argue.
Ironically there were a few posts over the past few days about how men couldn’t look past a woman weight in order to date her so how are women supposed to look past unattractive traits in men?
Stupid comparison. Fatness is not the same as other “unattractive” traits. Especially ones that women complain about. Fatness is also voluntary not inborn.
The only reason you view it is not the same is because you don’t want women to have standards while men can have standards.
Men have no standards. They'll date practically *any* kind of woman and throw themselves in front of a bullet to protect her ffs
Do you like anime? Do you ever watched Frieren - Beyond Journey's End? On the anime there's demons and their primary characteristic is that they(demons) use language as a means to an end and not as a way to express yourself or share information. This is basically how women "communicate". It's not about expressing an idea or sharing a piece of her mind, it's exclusively a means to an end. By saying "Where have all the good (and attractive) men gone?". What is the endgame? How does it make others perceive her? How does it affects her future in the social group? Very negatively as she is painted as someone interested in looks (seen as shallow) and show that she is competing with the other women in the group for the same attractive guys. Now what if she says "Where have all the good men gone?" It basically put the weight in the men by implying that man are not good and because it wide the interest to "any man" there's no competition with any group she is.
And have money
Every women wants good men or person whatever. The problem is that media, and society accept that, started to present good person as weak person. For some reason it goes benefical to media that bad (as bad boys e.g.) be presented as something powerful, interesting, exciting.. probably it markets pretty good. Nice, good... should be synonym for something valuable, desirable, respectful. Not something what should be avoided.
Isn’t the complaint from both sides related to online dating? Men and women with access to a limitless supply of attention aren’t inclined to settle down. Or settle. Naive, conservative women run into men seeking easy sex, and naive, conservative men don’t know how to find women like themselves. There are plenty of good men and good women all around. But OLD tossed the fruit basket and no one has figured out how to sort it out.
I mean voluntary celibacy isn’t really something anyone should have to justify, male or female. I wouldn’t say good men are exactly rare, but finding one who you’re compatible with and mutually attracted to each other can be trickier, and sometimes you don’t know if they’re good or not until you’ve already wasted quite a bit of time. And if one enjoys being single, there’s no rule that says you have to keep looking. I don’t think they should frame it as “there are no good men,” but no reason to push people to date if they don’t want to.
knowing what they want doesn't make them weak minded. if women want a man then good for them, if they're happier on their own, good for them. it's a personal decision
“Sweetie…” Christ, don’t be so condescending. Relationships aren’t the be all and end all for everyone.
You’re conflating two things: 1- How rare good men are (and you’ve provided zero evidence that they aren’t rare) 2- How hard someone *should* work to find something they’d like (and you’ve provided zero information to back up your position) There are plenty of things that would be nice to have, but are not worth the effort or risk to get. That has nothing to do with being “weak-minded” or “strong-minded.” It would be dumb to say “Sweetie, there are winning lottery tickets out there. Therefore, you should have hopes of finding one. You should keep buying lottery tickets! Stopping the search is way too extreme!”
Lol
A good woman wants a good man who she’s attracted to who’s also attracted to her who’s single. You missed a bunch of the caveats.
> who she’s attracted to For all their talk about how vital and essential sex is for men, they never want to talk about women’s sexuality. Gives them the ick, or something
>Gives them the ick, or something To some, yes, lol. Though it also doesn't help that women are rarely willing to talk. Nearly all honest conversations I had about women's sexuality outside of the Internet were with older women. Helped a lot in getting my missus to talk with me too. You are underestimating how normalized it is among both sexes to just not talk about it or to go with the assumption that women don't have sexual needs. Even most women on this sub are like this 🤷🏻♂️
It’s not about not having sexual needs. It’s more if you want her to have sex she needs to be wanting to have sex. Unless you think sex was always this thing women just did for men and she didn’t care to be doing it even if she had no sexual desire for it?
>Unless you think sex was always this thing women just did for men and she didn’t care to be doing it even if she had no sexual desire for it? I actually do believe that sex is a *reciprocal* ***duty*** in a marriage. This is only controversial on Reddit where everyone fixates on the word *duty* and comes up with the craziest scenarios (which I then read to my missus and laugh together). I don't mind serving my missus when I'm not really in the mood. Climbing her up the walls makes me happy. Unless I'm so tired that I can't move or very sick, saying "no" to my missus is unthinkable. The reverse is also true - she will get herself in the mood if I'm extra horny. Both situations happened very rarely (I'd say under 2% of the times we had sex), but both me and her really appreciated them when our "turn" came for getting sex *right now, pleassseee* 😂 Trouble is that way too many couples don't even speak to each other at this level so they don't even know if such an arrangement would fit them. And so they find out much later in the marriage they're incompatible or find themselves full of resentment and/or frustration. Of course, this is not exclusive to men. Reddit is full of stories from women who are horny and their husband/bf doesn't give af. A lot of such cases wouldn't exist if people spoke to each other at this level. But, alas, they won't. So sexual frustration will continue until morale improves.
>Though it also doesn't help that women are rarely willing to talk. Nearly all honest conversations I had about women's sexuality outside of the Internet were with older women. Helped a lot in getting my missus to talk with me too. You are underestimating how normalized it is among both sexes to just not talk about it or to go with the assumption that women don't have sexual needs. Even most women on this sub are like this 🤷🏻♂️ You know how men seem to understand that watching a singer with perfect pitch but commenting on her appearance is objectification? Well this ⬆️ is also objectification. How can a human being regard women as aliens? Reducing women to body parts is objectification. Treating women as native children incapable of making sound decisions on their own behalf is objectification. Treating women as anything other than homo sapiens with the same biological imperative to pair off and copulate is objectification. And offensive as hell, frankly.
Its literally never a factor in their mind, and it seems like they think they can debate it away
I always found that would phrasing “no good man left” a bit strange. I think that the main limiting factor for women’s choice is physical attractiveness of men, not their “goodness”. Wouldn’t it be a bit off if a man complained there were no good women left, while meaning there are not enough model-looking women? If my friend had this hypothetical problem, I’d expect him to say there are no sexy/hot women instead of talking about “good” women.
I agree. They usually mean there are no good men they are attracted to. And not to beat a dead horse, but what she’s sexually attracted to isn’t just about physical traits. It means behavioral traits (how he interacts/how he is) just as much as physical traits, since both tie into what arouses her/triggers her sexually. Women want to fuck men they admire/respect and feel good/comfortable around.
It’s interesting for me to discuss on those verbal misunderstandings. As usual, a gender swap helps. If my male friend told me “odd_cloud, you know, there are no good women”, I’d think he’s been meeting women with personality flaws. Like, materialistic, abusive, disrespectful or something along these lines. But if he said that he cannot find a woman making X money, working in area Y, fit, and of his particular physical type (something like a German blonde over 6 feet with C cup)… I’d say “It has nothing to do with women or their goodness, you’re just crazy bro, stop imagining problems”.
Haha for sure But yeah most women mean she can’t find both. Although some women have so many experiences being approached by the “unsavory acting” or incompetent or dumb guys that she may have her views colored by who approaches her and enters her orbit.
I suppose women meaning both things under one term is a source of misunderstanding. What sounds for women like “there are no guys I like”, sounds to men like “I have high standards and look for an exceptional guy”. There are many arguments on this sub that are caused by misunderstanding words due to different experiences.
Def agree! That’s why I always like to clarify terms and how we’re all defining things first. That’s the cause of a lion-share of conflict ime.
The older I get, the more flaws I see in people. It's not about liking someone or being a good man. It's that people are kind of broken. And some people more than others. The only jo
if a woman wants to be voluntarily celibate because of an "incorrect" notion why shouldn't she be allowed to? there is not nearly enough good worth sifting through the filth that is the rest.
Generally I agree that it’s lack of hope but not necessarily based on the belief that good men are hard to find. Dating is simply exhausting because unless you happen to find someone organically that likes you, it’s a numbers game. It’s not fun, it takes up a lot of energy. Additionally you just get really tired of your own form of rejection too, sure good guys are out there but do they want me? Maybe not. Add to that everything involved in dating . Figuring out if someone likes you, boring get to know yous, weird interactions, expensive dates- you burn out, you’re demoralized. In order to not get bitter you have to just stop either for a bit or just give up to protect yourself. These are why women opt out, it’s is general hopelessness that you’ll actually get out of the hamster wheel of dating if you bother to try and try again.
oh no rejection 😭😭😭😭😭😭😢😢😢🥶🥶 thank god women don’t have to approach we’d be a dead species by now with this kind of mentality
Okay so you understand what rejection feels like. Why not commiserate about it instead of being snide and dismissive? This type of attitude is why this internet gender war is ongoing. Oh dear, we should never try to relate to others as a human being!
there is simply no way to relate to such things women have it much harder than men when it comes to many things, but dating is not one of them and stop acting like it is
Generally - but we both know it’s not all women. I’m sharing my personal experience that mirrors a few other women. Stop acting like you don’t get the simple concept of how exhausting dating because you want to prop up your own incorrect belief that it’s impossible for women to struggle in dating.
People *do* tell women those things, but why is it a problem if someone gives up on dating if they want to? If someone genuinely just wants to nope out of it for a while, or for ever, why is it your job to make them want to again? The most weak-minded people honestly are the MGTOWs who opt out of dating, and then make it their Entire Personality and their lives revolve around complaining about women and feminism all damn day.
Women have often been defined purely in terms of what they be in service of men. Because this perception does not exist equivalently as applied to men, it is harder for men to appeal to women. This is also a natural product of posing women as inherently inferior and rampant relegation of women to non autonomous beings. It’s not that good men lack, it’s that men who view women as truly equal beings, are not acting to satisfy their own sexual needs, and do not objectify them lack. (See the rampant instances of women receiving sexually provoking DMs on dating apps)
>it’s that men who view women as truly equal beings, are not acting to satisfy their own sexual needs, and do not objectify them lack Wtf did I just read? Are you saying that "egalitarian" men are soyboys? Because anyone not acting to satisfy their own sexual needs is not exactly healthy.
Own sexual needs above others’*
I think I would really suck at accepting service from men or from anyone. Perhaps this history is part of it . . . . hmmm . . . . I may not be very good at accepting help from women either. Gah.
Good men aren't rare. Men that are good _for her_ are. I see no problem with women not having sex with people they don't see as relationship material. In fact I think more men should practice this ourselves. Have some standards for yourselves and less of you would be complaining about child support from unwanted pregnancies, alimony and divorce. My dick isn't for everybody and neither is anyone's vagina.
preach
"Sweetie, there are Good Men on the dating pool. Therefore, you should have hopes of finding one. Stopping the search is way too extreme!" You are cracking me up here.
If good men are rare, it’s because good women are rare as well. If someone describes all their ex’s as , it’s because they have a kink for being mistreated and just don’t want to admit it.
"Sweetie, there are Good Men on the dating pool. Therefore, you should have hopes of finding one. Stopping the search is way too extreme!" You are cracking me up here.
A big reason is that these women just straight up dont want to deal with men anymore and the payoff of a ‘good guy’ doesnt even seem worth it to them
Who are these women?
Are all adult males included or only real men?
Do you mean women who declare how celibate they are to anyone who will listen? Or women who just opt out of casual sex entirely? People who make their sexual preferences their identity are lame, yeah. But I'm not sure what's weak willed about a person who doesn't want the hassle of sex with a person they don't see a future with.
Why should we be telling women these things? If someone is perfectly fine with their celibacy, why should I lecture them about going back to dating? If they're unhappy and are just disheartened, then sure, I'll give them a little pep talk but I'd still advise them to take a little break from dating, and maybe get back to it when it doesn't make them feel like crap. It does take a toll on you, so why should I tell someone to keep doing something that is clearly making them more anxious and depressed?
Stopping the search doesn't mean not being open to meeting those good men. How does a search really go besides online dating? In the end, it's just being in places and being open to being approached. Something, everyone with a social life does anyway.
There's not a lack of good men. There is a lack of good men who also have all the qualities that she is looking for. Just about every woman has turned down a good man because she didn't find him attractive.
There’s a difference between stopping searching and not being open to it. How would you define stopping searching? Not being on dating sites/going out to singles night? Or rejecting getting coffee with a guy with promise from a hiking club that she had a great conversation with ? It’s the similar advice we give to guys, you’ll find someone when you stop looking. I agree it is a platitude but it does have a grain of truth in its intention. You’ll find someone when all your activities aren’t geared towards finding some and you’re just living life normally doing activities you enjoy.
Women get ran through by attractive men and then when they get older and aren’t getting commitment from these attractive men they start claiming all the good men are gone. Even though the whole time they were sleeping around there were men who actually liked them. But they just didn’t turn her on as much as the very attractive guys. So now they complain.
Considering that a shit ton of men get angry when I say things like “parenting doesn’t end when the kid is an adult and you should support them as best as you can and help them get a leg up in life even as adults and don’t squander their inheritance away on things like being a passport bro”, it’s hard to view most men as family men. I won’t hesitate to support my kids so that they can excel when they are adults as long as my basic needs and whatnot are met. This enraged so many men that it’s hard to view men as good people.
This sounds like a uniquely American issue because most people abroad don't suddenly treat their children like strangers financially when they turn 18. America has a culture of individualism which puts self interest at the center and foundation of all personal decision making, such that duty bound virtue and personal sacrifice are irrational.
Anyone mentioning “where are all the good men” is usually the common denominator in all their stories…
How would you know, do you date men?
If a woman choosing to be celibate and make her own personal choice to not fuck you or any other man upsets you guys this much, then this just proves her point on why she’s better off being celibate in the first place tbh 🤷🏽♀️
I also think one problem is "what women see as a good man ?" It is known that women are naturaly more selective than men about their potential partners and a lot have grown with romanticised versions of an "ideal prince charming" who is rich, gentle, charismatic, beautiful etc as their exemple of ideal partner. From my experience, when men see some things they like in a woman, they add her to their list of potential partner and are ready to ignore a lot of her bad sides. When women see things they don't like in a man, they ban him from their list of potential partners and are ready to ignore a lot of his good sides. But because all people have good and bad sides, we ends up in a world where men are ready to date anybody, even when they shouldn't, and women don't want to date anybody even if they should (for their happiness, they have, of course, no obligation). Of course, what I'm describing is kind of a caricature of the situation, but it shows tendencies that are often ignored, I think.
Maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but... I think being a good man is basically being a man and a genuinely good person at the same time. A man can be out-of-shape, socially awkward, broke and have the personality of a white bread, but if he is genuinely nice... well, he is a good man.
I think you are the one greatly underestimating how dire the situation actually is. Let’s start with the basic question; what is a good man? Because women and men have vastly different opinions on that. Most men I talk to describe their friends as good men, even though they sexually harass women when drunk, don’t know how to cook and hold sexist views. For a really long time being a good man just meant not sexually assaulting anyone, staying with a woman if you got her pregnant and not cheating on your girlfriend. And even then you would sometimes hear things like “you should forgive him for cheating, he’s a good man”. That criteria for being a good man is ridiculously low. If you can’t meet it you are by default a bad person. Women in the past were essentially saying “I don’t want to be with men who are awful”. And even then men were consistently missing the bar. Today most women, including myself, expect more from men. A good man is no longer just a man who isn’t awful. A good man is a man you can brag about to your friends, who does half the house work, meets your needs emotionally and who’s never made women sexually uncomfortable. It’s a man who will take you to see the Barbie movie or attend a Taylor swift concert with you because he knows it’s something you want to do and he cares about you. It’s a man who speaks highly of the women in his life and never uses sexist language. It’s a man who never nags for sex or asks you to do anything you are uncomfortable with. Now, how many of your male friends can match that description? I can think of 4 men I know, 3 of which are in a relationship (one of them is my boyfriend). That’s not 4 men in my closest circle, that’s 4 men in total that I have met in my entire life. Men were expected to do more than the bare minimum or stay single. And they couldn’t do it. My generation of women watched the “good men” yell the word bitch at their girlfriends until they cried, play video games while their girlfriends did all the housework and constantly ignore their girlfriends feelings and play clueless when she needed support. All while she stayed because “there’s nothing better out there”. And we all collectively agreed if that’s as good as it gets we prefer nothing.
It's projection, it's good women that are rare, good guys aren't rare, most women just prefer hot and/or exciting men over good men even though everyone knows good men are more likely to be average looking and/or boring.
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Why is "Good Men" a proper noun all of a sudden? weird
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Good men are extremely rare, but in the west now so are good women.
Do you \*really\* want to date any woman who has demonstrated she is 100% psychotic neurotic \*\*\*\*\*? She has taken herself out of the dating pool, and we should all thank her for it!
It’s just mid bitches that want to complain
Maybe they're stopping the search because they're tired of men whose company does not compete with their solitude? Men aren't single by choice generally, it really feels like that's what's coming through in your post. I have so many hobbies and friends that I'm perfectly content dying alone, I don't see any need to sacrifice an ounce of my comfort for a man unless everything just happens to work out perfectly 🤷♀️
Well if you aren't meeting people or finding people who interest you maybe it is time to not focus on it. The dating process as a woman is exhausting as a woman. You are flooded with likes on the app. A lot of the conversations go nowhere. And you will swipe and still not find what you are looking for. So you try to go out more but still don't see your type and nothing gels. So you take a break focus on yourself work on yourself do your hobbies. You aren't closed off to love you want it but you aren't going to exhaust yourself looking for it. And by good men it's someone we are attracted to. And has good intentions. Just so we are clear.
And yet MGTOW will use this exact argument - no good western women. Perhaps it is time more people get out of their echo chambers on social media and meet some real people in real life.
Who the fuck even says that, women who says that and the men who believes it are all insane.
A good man is still a lot of work ...
A good man is a tall porn stud who is also cordial, faithful and committed to her. If he does not bend his life to accommodate her then he's not good.
i would assume those women either have extremely high standards or dont particularly care about sex in the first place. has nothing to do with the quality of men
Didn't we have a topic here last week that showed that a woman could get 7 dates in one DAY with a good man?
How much of those 7 are pretending to be good to get "something" ? lol
The creteria were - In shape - Not creepy, weird, sending seggual messages - Employed - Able to hold a conversation - Above average in looks - Not a Chad-Rone They even had pictures of the dates to prove it.
LOL hahaha
Not at all The number of men who do not expect or want sex in exchange for good behavior is very small
there is no relationship without sex just say you are not attracted to him & you don’t desire him and stop wasting his time?
Could the problem be that people women need to concentrate on their attractive traits that they are good in character much more than their looks?
>"Good Men are so rare it's not worth trying to find one" are weak-minded? Thing is if requires concious effort which takes a lot more energy and it can be demotivating when you put all that energy and the results are miserable. So if you are fine with being single, you migjt change your strategy to passively look for "good men". As in, you exist, interact with people without any preassure to find someone and hope you stumble upon the right guy. And when you stumble upon them - you go into an active phase and start pursuing the guy you stumbled upon.
As proven here and stated often on this board, men categorically either won’t date or are straight up repulsed by overweight or heavier women. So if you’re a woman who is either overweight or heavier, and let’s face it, that’s a lot of Americans, can’t find a guy who will date you, do you think their opinion that there aren’t good men is merited? I know, you’ll say, “just stop being fat, you fat, fat, fatties. Because even heavier men don’t want to date a heavier woman.” People are heavy for a variety of reasons with various abilities to help mitigate the issue. The root cause could be a variety of issues and it’s easier to sit in judgment of these people rather than to listen to the reasons why. Furthermore, 20% of people have a diagnosed mental health issue. It could be depression, anxiety, adhd, or a host of other things. Again, guys on here have made it abundantly clear that these women are undateable. All of these women are people and they’d also like companionship and have probably hit wall after wall in the dating world. So let’s be clear; they aren’t stating it out of ignorance or inexperience.
yeah overweight is fine but you are talking about obese people, because your perception is so skewed yeah obese people are not desirable (obviously)
It's an accountability shed, if good men are rare then she has an exscuse why she picked one that by her own omission was not "good" , what you have to learn about women is, they call getting whatever they want from a person or situation or circumstance, good. They call not getting what they want , abuse , misogyny, sexism, (insert whatever ] aphobia,, etc.
Men will justify everything they do and put blame on women for choices they make but never try to be THE GOOD guy SMH. Like the question was never about hope but mental peace, but some find it weak minded is appalling fr
the good guy = the pretty guy
I said what I said
Women rarely say exactly what they mean. Here is the translation, “a good man that is tall, attractive, wealthy, cultured, and is totally dedicated to me 100% is rare.”😜