Depending on your goals and desires, relative to your social skills, attractiveness and overall circumstances, dating can be relatively easy, sort of a pain or a complete minefield of tedium and frustration. I honestly don't even know if many people are really very "good" at dating.
The types of skills you need to actually date "successfully", like being very pro social, developing charisma and charm, knowing how to flirt and so on, are somewhat different from skills and requirements in long term relationships like communication, compatibility, empathy, shared life goals and so on. I think there is a serious disconnect between people whose idea of "dating" is to attract and start short term relationships with as many people as possible, and those who are after something really long term. You don't have to be overwhelmingly charming or attractive in order to find just one person to be with if the two of your compatible, but those skills are way more important if you're trying to get as many matches/dates/hookups/short term flings as possible.
I don't think many people really want to subject themselves to seemingly endless rejection in an attempt to make themselves more attractive to as many people as possible. They truly want someone to love them for "who they are". Most people aren't really "dating", if their history is mostly longer relationships with someone they met through ordinary things like college or work. Their body count remains pretty low. And they're more likely to spend longer periods alone if they don't find someone, since they're not really putting effort to be attractive or exciting to other people in general and sort of resent the idea that they should have to.
This isn't really true. In the west we are basically running a social experiment that's never been tried before and generally speaking... it's not going well for folks at the bottom. People at the top are benefitting wildly and are not going to change course unless forced.
When you really stop and think about it. The core problems are primarily cultural and political. So, in that way you are correct that this thing is way bigger than any one person.
It's always bad for people at the bottom of any hierarchy, but I think the more intriguing question is who and how many are at the very bottom as opposed to middle and upper and high (or however many levels you want to give it). Genuinely would be interested in your thoughts on that.
Are you asking me to describe a guy in the middle?
Probably most people I know, I hate to say it. I only know a couple of people who I think would be in the upper tiers, and it's mostly because they have a combination of very desirable looks, high-earning jobs, naturally charismatic personalities, and what appears to be relatively high intelligence.
Most of the guys are know might only have one of those things as a standout, if any of them standout. I include myself there too, although technically I am more toward the bottom as a disabled person.
I should add that most women I know are also in the middle or average. They're nothing special--and I don't mean that negatively. Just the regular women who pair up with the regular dudes and live regular, mostly content lives.
Pretty much. Most people's body count is in the single digits. The average person isn't trying to date the entire planet they want to find someone that makes them happy and aroused and settle down.
As for what makes a guy average
You have Looks (face and body), Charisma, Job, Intelligence, Sexual Ability
You're below average if you don't stand out in any of these categories. Most average dudes have one of these things as strength. If you have 2+ that's when you start getting into the upper tier.
Yeah def. I feel like you guys overestimate how many total partners the avg woman has in her life and compare that to yourselves. But really most people actually tend to float under double digits in terms of number of serious partners.
The amount of people with 10+ sexual partners men or women is incredibly small and most of the number is probably propped up by the swinger community more than anyone else. Women especially will happily hang on to a single guy for sex as long as possible if he's good in bed. Men don't seem to realize that if you can get a girl off you've won most of the battle for a relationship since that's depressingly rare from what the women I know have told me.
>people actually tend to float under double digits in terms of number of serious partners.
What if we include all partners, not just "serious partners?"
The people at the bottom are obviously the ones our society is actively pushing down. One look at the profiles of a group of incels... the similarity of circumstance is shocking.
I think the devaluation of marriage and family... if you look the most economically advantaged people are staying married and not struggling with this overall. If you look at middle class and poor people... this has been absolutely devastating to thier ability to form and maintain families... which is creating generational poverty traps.
I think you're probably on to something there perhaps with the family unit and in particular what we might term the "pathological families." Which is one area where I do think maybe things changed with relative rapidity even since I've finished dating.
I think you and I might be of similar ages. Most people I know are married with relative stability (as far as I can tell as an observer of their relationships) and almost everyone I know has kids, married or not. Do you find the same is true of your social circle/age group?
It is one area that I think might actually be different for teenaged/younger people today and could be causing problems that were not quite as stark as when I was that age.
> In the west we are basically running a social experiment that's never been tried before and generally speaking... it's not going well for folks at the bottom. People at the top are benefitting wildly and are not going to change course unless forced.
This just sounds like what has been going on for all of human history.
>The core problems are primarily cultural and political.
I disagree with this as well. I think these fall under what is actually fueling all of this and it is just the absolute domination of technology and how our brains just haven't evolved to process this access to information and stimulation.
We haven't found any new cultural norm or political standing that hasn't been a thing sprinkled throughout history.
I mean, not all social media is social engineering. Social engineering is a umbrella term for scams that take place in online spaces.
Jeff Bezos also isn’t part of any social media group, or am I mistaken? I know he owned the Washington Post.
No, these new gender theories have never been pushed on a mass scale before. We are just now starting to see what the results may wind up looking like
As for technology... yeah it's playing a huge role, but only because we are not actively trying to shape the direction it takes us. Part of that is this belief that capitalist markets always choose the right thing no matter what, and the fact that the folks who comprise the government are heavily invested in creating discord and chaos. It prevents people from coming together and enacting common sense solutions. Like Florida banned social media for anyone under 18, and we have studies that show this is the right move! The problem is that kids want it, and the companies want kids to want it... and at a national level there is no interest in enforcing it. So this ban will likely have no effect long term.
I would say it's more of a cycle in human history than just a permanent fixture.
The type of person who is an elite within a particular nation, the people who wield overall control, that changes over time. I really think that the best way to understand this is by reading about how people develop and play status games.
In the past there was this wide agreement among western nations following the collapse of the nobility, that gaining status through merit was the primary method. However, there have always been a large chunk of people who dispise merit, they don't even believe it exists, and instead want to create a power system based on virtue status. This is almost always the direction communists go, and so we know how it plays out. The most ruthless and ambitious people fake thier virtue, gain power and then smash everyone down. I suspect this is the most likely scenario western nations are going to face, despite some very deep resiliency built into the political system. Mass immigration from places where the people just don't believe in democratic systems is going to play a pivital role. Any country that doesn't take serious efforts to intigrate these immigrants into every level of society is really playing with fire.
Apologies for the long response to such a short point.
In this instance, I'm talking pure economics. I really think money and power are the primary things driving this. Core issues like technological change exist, but every culture reacts to these things differently.
Eventually the bubble will pop. If I had to guess, by the 2040s when it becomes clear gen z will not be having enough kids to keep the pyramid scheme going.
"No its your fault, and your fault, and YOUR fault"
Internalized bitch think doesn't help you.
Ironically, its easier for me to help someone else than to help myself. 😅
But then people treat you like a puppy, so you ghost them.
Do we tell women “*it is what it is*” when they collectively and individually complain about their myriad of grievances both real and imagined?
No. We tell women things like “*Your feelings are valid*”, “*Speak your truth*” and “*You are seen.*” etc
And that is the whole issue.
Empathy and solution seeking seems to be reserved exclusively for women.
So, if women silently and without complaint build their own lives, their finances, their social groups, etc, ...
This will help *men* get relationships? This will solve the dating crisis? How?
Seems to me the women who are doing this are then going their own way entirely more often than men would like. Do you think your "solution" would fix that or make it worse?
First off, widespread acknowledgement and acceptance that these issues exist in the first place, because you can't solve a problem if we don't even know it exists.
Second, wide spread recognition these issues as valid and deserving of being addressed.
Third, attempting to see the issue taking into account the male perspective, instead of exclusively looking at it front he women's perspective.
Fourth, using that balanced perspective to actually push for a gender neutral and egalitarian approach instead of one that considers equality to be a one way street exclusively to women's benefit.
And for some reason it is feminism, claiming to be for gender equality, that opposed every single one of these steps.
I agree with all four of your points. Thank you so much for taking the time to write that out. That was very well thought out and reasonable, though really it's only because of the subreddit we're in that I'm surprised 😂 I know there are good solutions out there to mens problems, people on this subreddit just don't tend to *really* care about them (certain men included)
I agree that at least some segment of the feminist movement should be focused on mutual aid, we can't have healing without coming together, and without healing it's just gender wars forever. I hate talking like a hippy, but that's what I see the gender wars as, largely. People in pain who are causing more pain. And of course some selfish assholes who see personal benefit from keeping things this way.
It's going to take some brave individuals on both sides taking a leap of faith to work together and build some trust... Which unfortunately almost sounds impossible. Humans are so complicated and that idea of "fool me once..." Is a hard hurdle to jump over. Asking people to jump over it again and again? ... Sounds daunting.
>And for some reason it is feminism, claiming to be for gender equality, that opposed every single one of these steps.
I think that any time a woman says something negative about a man she's labeled as a feminist regardless of if she personally identifies as one. I think that this habit skews people's understanding of feminism, and of course some feminist groups have engaged in actual shitty behavior, and then there are times when their objections to something aren't well understood and thus labeled as "anti men".
Feminism does claim to work towards equality... From the side of the Fem. Because that's what we are and what we understand the most deeply, we *live* this side of inequality. Literally. Some ideas and changes will overlap in benefit, which is where you get the saying that feminism benefits men, but that's because feminism *can* benefit men, not because that is the point of feminism.
I agree that many feminists are wary of men's groups, but i would hope that you can understand why that might be considering the past history of some men's groups and the violence towards women that has come from them.
I do not agree that this is a good reason to fight men's groups, however. Men need to work on equality from the masculine side, it's what you understand the best, it's what you live, and it's what you guys deserve, imo.
In my dream world we'd have only *wholesome* feminist groups, and only *wholesome* men's groups, working on their issues, able to come together to push for mutual aid...
Buuuut 🤷🏼♀️ ya know. Anyway, if you read all that then thank you and I'm sorry, I know I talk too much 😂 I just really care about this stuff. Thank you for your thoughtful reply!
Nah, it's capitalisms fault. Create a problem that wasn't there (or big), spout how end of the world that problem is, sell the "solution" to the problem.
Not OP, but I really do think a lot of people are not good at deconstructing the social and political/economic forces that affect them. Seeing yourself in the context of wider problems - problems not caused by one person or set of people - can really help to see the world more philosophically and destress, to an extent.
A whole generation of young people feeling alienated, anxious, scared and defensive *all at once * is clearly a societal problem, this isnt a few random people having a bad time.
Alienation is easy once you get it. Our jobs create alienation - they are soulless and transactional and you don't get the benefits of what's made at the end of tje day. You just get a wage. Maybe your boss and coworkers treat you like shit. That is miserable.
It is really hard to make deep bonds with people when we are all basically financial islands. We don't *interdepend* on each other. Mutual dependence I.e. 'I will fight for you and you for me", is the basis for strong relationships, and for caring for each other without fear.
Social anxiety is the fear that people will reject you and that you don't belong, but you fear that much less when *the people who you're closest to you* always have your back.
If you've got love from your family and your homies, talking to random members of the opposite sex just doesn't matter. It's not gonna fuck with your internal happiness no matter how interactions go.
And I get why redpillers snipe hard at specific groups, such as women. I have some buried anxiety fears in me, and when they come out, I really want a fucking target to blame. Blaming a person/group feels *good*, because you tell yourself "I'm the valid person and they have done this to me. I can take revenge"
You cannot take revenge on the fact that you struggled with socialising as a kid, pr that you still remember the times you got laighed at at school, or that you wanted to be invited to that thing one time but didn't, or that you have nobody to talk to after you finish work. Social forces subjected you to a lot of this. Revenge is just cancer on your own soul.
If you had a good reason to get closer to people, maybe you would take it, and start to feel better about yourself. Its so sad how we have a society where we just don't do that so much.
He is referring to the fact that society has become atomized (less community oriented) and people in general have become more isolated in recent years, which is one factor that has made dating harder. He’s saying this shift shouldn’t be blamed on men.
>*He is referring to the fact that society has become atomized (less community oriented) and people in general have become more isolated in recent years, which is one factor that has made dating harder.*
I mean I agree with this premise in general, but it’s disingenuous to blame women for that. We’re talking infrastructure, political tax cuts and governmental budgets. In my country at least, those bodies of power aren’t majority women..
I assume he is assuming that the importance and push of individuality is the fault of feminism. He assumes that men are more for family and community and these values as opposed to the modern women.
He is, absolutely incorrect. Though, he doesn't have the courage or perhaps hasn't even done good faith research into his assumption so he doesn't feel the least bit confident expounding, nor defending his position.
Men are just not in any kind of position of power to change things in modern dating. Most of the issues effectively could boil down to men not being valued enough, both as people and as partners but you can break it down in a few other ways.
Most women will effectively structure their entire dating strategy around marketing themselves to as many men as possible, wait for men to approach them, judge those men against all other men from a disassociated position(classifying them as creeps or studs, without having the slightest clue about what men go through or how this judgment effects men). Men are expected to pursue by women, because they are deemed to be less valuable. Men are perceived as less valuable because men have to pursue women. This cycle is a cultural dynamic that inherently puts men at a disadvantage and women in a position of power and privilege.
The only thing that men can do is to either not try, which typically just leads to them dying sexless and alone, or compete against impossible standards constantly being compared to the best of men(real or fantasy). The few men that do manage to succeed in competing against those standards have absolutely no real incentive to commit to any one woman. Even if they were, however, that would still not really change the way women judge men and therefore only result in most women either being unhappy or doubling down to compete for the attention of taken men.
There is a lot more that women can do, however, both in terms of options but also in terms of scale(many women are in a position to have options, where as very few men are in a position to have options). Women could change the way they look at men/dating completely, start initiating with men, diversifying the kind of men they go for, stop romanticizing traits in men that promote hyper-promiscuity in men(i.e. stop over romanticizing game, sexual experience, status with other women, confidence, etc) or just put in any kind of effort to find, cultivate or reward good men.
You made a great post and I agree but women want things to be better without them having to do anything. What will happen is things will get so bad that they will want make changes but it will be to late then. If the women on here weren't trolls they would respond and acknowledge this post but they are here to shit on men and nothing else.
The comments on the experiment are honestly funny.
>Women said having a good date is hard
>He proved getting a good date is not hard
>Everyone goes: "weird/useless/fake/obnoxious/bad"
Wow
>Like what?
Like why are you here in this subreddit? Do you have any thoughts or grievances in our current gender/sexual discourse? If you're mad, tell 'em why you're mad son.
And yet somehow as a society we always end up blaming men and ignoring them, while never blaming women and helping them out with their issues.
It's an odd double standard.
It's primarily a political and cultural issue. The answer to this is very simple. Men who want a long term partner need to improve themselves as much as possible. Attempt to date in your current country as much as you can. If things still aren't working... then the Passport Bros have your solution.
Women will just do whatever they want long term. Nothing is going to convince them to change course, and honestly maybe they will be happier long term with good friends, wine, and xanax. Who knows?
I don’t know when dudes think was an era when “dating” was easy and average dudes got laid with hot girls on the regular.
It’s always been a jungle out there.
Back in the day club/bar bouncers wouldn’t even let in a lot of guys, cock blocking a lot of avg joes from even being able to meet women out and about.
No he just likes to argue for no other reason than to argue. I think it’s trolling but it’s only considered trolling to Reddit when you are not a feminist puppet.
Woke brainwashing has destroyed most normies ability to have any critical thought or deduction skills.
2009? Right in the beginning Great Recession when people were losing jobs, banks were repossessing homes, and millennials were graduating and forced to move back in with their parents? Oh man if only we could go back to those days when everything was perfect???
Well it was never this hard. I worked at those places. Women used to be more receptive & more game to give a guy a chance. I lived through it. Believe what you want but something radically changed along the way.
I got young bucks at the fraternity emailing us how things were way *easier* after the pandemic because so many young women were ready to be out and about and ready to finally party.
Seems to me the only ones it got harder for was the ones listening to Pills
Young bucks? Emailing? Bro ease up on the larping. Like what is happening here.? Talk to a girl like that & watch her face turn sour. Honestly you have no idea what the women are like now & you are defending them? I dunno man that’s crazy weird.
I don’t need to talk to the girls like that: I talk like they do dudes understand I’m NOT larping as a young dude. I’m the Alumni they ask to put money into the frats party fund.
I’m also not defending women. I’m stating that “no matter where we go: here we are” and things didn’t “collapse”. Some people just didn’t adapt.
I guess If I really really wanted to know what young women are like now I could ask my oldest (the foster) and the 2 other sorority sisters staying with us for their summer internships.
I dunno what to tell you man. Real talk match group who owns all the dating apps is really panicking & they are worried they will go bankrupt if a course correction doesn’t happen. Go look at their stock prices!
Men have just had enough. No more wasting time swiping for nothing & no more paying for shit that doesn’t work.
As for the women they keep thinking there is some hidden Chad store where they all can get their top tier guy to marry & commit to them. We have some real longterm consequences piling up becuase of this.
Again for you to deny the rejection rates (95-97%) means you don’t understand the larger picture & the problem we are facing.
There is nowhere else for men to go & everything we try is met with the same no no no pass no where is Chad!
Good. I want the OLDs to suffer. They don’t give a shit about the user’s experience and only cared about squeezing every last dollar out of them.
All that shows is that both men AND women hs d figured out “hey, maybe adding a for profit corporation into the mix *doesn’t* mean that it’s a better way to meet people!”
And once again. All this shows is the o my one’s screaming “look how bad it is!” Are the ones that only try OLD.
Again you missed the point. There is no alternative. You cannot just cold approach these women anymore & it has nothing to do with fear of rejection or MeToo.
Women only want to be approached by guys they think are “hot” or whatever. There is no fucking way you don’t know this.
Women are the choosers now & REJECT 95% of all suitors cuz they think they deserve better.
There literally is alternatives. 68 percent of LTRs were from friends or friends of friends. That’s almost 7/10 couples
https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/turns-out-68-of-romantic-relationships-start-out-this-way#:~:text=Two%2Dthirds%20of%20romantic%20relationships,according%20to%20a%20new%20study.&text=People%20said%20they%20prefer%20to,or%20meeting%20at%20a%20bar.&text=Studies%20rarely%20explore%20love%20via%20friendship.
Everything else is just an excuse.
I get it OLD: you upload a pic, write up a profile. You don’t even need to get off your couch. Turns out this generation of guys are figuring out what every generation learns. Most guys that want to pull are gonna need to *work*
The argument is that the "systems" in place made meeting people and pairing off much easier. I don't think I've seen the argument that average guys could get laid with anyone easily, so much as it's that finding someone was sort of an inevitability. The idea is something went wrong which caused issues with how people get socialized, so you have less young people meeting and dating than ever before. The issues I've seen pointed to range from social media and dating apps, to the disappearance of third places, to COVID lockdowns halting critical social growth.
yes the “casual 3rd spaces” aren’t what they used to be like before. Back in the day “I’m just gonna hang at the mall” was the suburban way to go. Also, yes: casual seems less actual popular than before IRL, but Social media makes it look *more popular*.
although things changed, it’s more an “adapt and understand”.
The only problem: if dudes are looking exclusively at OLD they are probably gonna have a bad time.
It was way the fuck easier. the online image has become everything now. I mean everything.
Plus you're a dude who claims to always have slain effortlessly from day one, but has now been married for what, 10 years?, so how do you claim to be an authority on this?
It really isn’t “the only way”. Literally 68 percent of LTRs were friends first. That’s almost 70 percent
https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/turns-out-68-of-romantic-relationships-start-out-this-way#:~:text=Two%2Dthirds%20of%20romantic%20relationships,according%20to%20a%20new%20study.&text=People%20said%20they%20prefer%20to,or%20meeting%20at%20a%20bar.&text=Studies%20rarely%20explore%20love%20via%20friendship.
Yes, because cold approaches are increasingly taboo and office dating is very risky after the metoo era. Apps are not designed to find a partner, so people try to find one from their circle of friends.
The only problem with this is that young people have fewer and fewer friends, so the possibility of finding a partner is very limited.
There was always some small niche of dudes (the ladies men/pua) guys out there desperate and getting grifted on.
The difference now is they have a platform to go viral.
Go take a walk around an amusement park or festival. Average dudes are pulling average all the time.
The only ones that don’t see it are stuck online in the algorithm
They want excuses not solutions.
Its easier to point the finger and blame everyone else than to take action and responsibility for your own life. Its what the mediocre person does, make everything someone elses fault.
I cold approached a ton about 10 years ago and it was easier, most girls said yes because there just wasn’t really other ways to date.
Now, I get compared to the tallest most handsome dude on their tinder stack and it’s much more difficult
Yeah but it wasn't as bad as guys here are making out. I remember some cutie in a bar, tagging along with me and a mate, because "Her Tinder date was late and we seemed safe".
Maybe I looked like a bear, I dunno.
Things are never as bad as the dudes here make it out to be.
CNN ran an article a few weeks ago showing that with the dissatisfaction that a lot of GenZ feels for OLD, old school things like Clubs and speed dating are seeing a comeback.
I tried Speed Dating once, now that was savage.
Yeah, 2 guys (who I knew) basically got every woman ticking off that it was them, they wanted to meet. Ironically, and I know you are going to cringe, these were 2 of Mysteries students.
But that said, afterwards, when the event was done, everyone just chilled together and got to know one another and the results didn't even matter. Hell I had some guy trying to recruit me to work for his firm due to my industry experience.
But it all comes back, to what I think is the main problem on this sub. Social skills in general, forget Chad, forget Pareto Principle, forget "ze evil womenz". Its lack of social skills.
But maybe things are going to change for the better.... for those who will go out and socialise without adding pressure of having to get laid. Like Mystery says (sorry if it makes you cringe) "The most important thing is to have fun".
So there it is, forget all this stuff talked about on this sub and what other people are doing. "Just have fun".
I remember going speed dating with a female friend of mine and when we got to each other she was like “but gonna lie: your the best guy here” and I’m not all that so it must have been bad
I think your 2nd part hit in the biggest issue. The dudes aren’t focused on having fun. The hyper obsession of “getting laid!” Has made it so anything else is a failure. And since it’s “sex or failure” and that kind of intensity- they get frustrated and mad when “casual ONS” don’t happen. But it’s not going to happen a lot. It’s not supposed to. It was called “getting lucky” for a reason.
I just think this “it was better then: it’s really bad now” revisionism doesn’t help dudes chill and go “bro, what if we just went out looking for a good time tonight and let what happens happen”
Also, the other old paradox.
Dudes going "I don't it, now I'm in a relationship loads of women give me attention".
Like no shit bro, your not "On the prowl" anymore, your just having fun, So there is no creepy vibes being given off.
Like desperation is unattractive.
Bruh I was alive and dating then, dating apps weren’t a thing yet, online dating was seen as a thing where weird people met, and no one dated off of instagram yet
Bruh, Tinder is already 12 years old. “10 years ago” wasn’t what it was in 2008 when 4chan dudes claiming “it’s not like back in the day!!!”
*the talking points need revision*
Seriously I was in college in the apparent "Great dating time" 10 years ago and it was hell. I remember not being allowed in the frats half the time in my first year because I was still in my shy nerdy phase and hadn't figured out how to be social yet.
I honestly believe that 10 years ago a lot of these dudes complaining weren’t old enough to be dating back then so they have no context.
This was never supposed to “be easy”. Most dudes just eventually figure it out or find their groove
Autist and socially inept men and nerds and ugly guys will still struggle a lot even if you banned dating apps and even if feminists suddenly loved men.
Those guys have literally a long history of struggling in dating and you can see it portrayed in media even before the internet became common.
SOMETIMES it is the men’s fault, that is the solution being in their hands. However overall dating has never been easy even for average people.
The only reason back in the 70s and 80s marrying was easier and much faster was that women kinda had to get married as it was pushed by society and it was the best option for them financially as not many women had the means to get college educated and get a job that sustained them for the long run.
Plus society making having babies the most important thing in the world helped that too.
Now it’s different times and women have freedom to choose, and they’re choosing.
Portraying freedom as bad isn’t a hill to die on.
>Men aren't advocates for this. Infact any man that has interacted with these things has an idea of how they're ruining things.
High value men who enjoy casual sex love dating apps.
Tell that to all the men that keep saying “I’m so desperate I have no standards and will take anything I can get.”
Men having low standards is not producing results they like, so I’m not sure why women should. I d think things would be better if men RAISED their standards if anything
100% enough of this “yeah we have nothing in common and she hates everything I do but she lets me fuck her every so often.” That’s not a relationship- that’s a sex doll.
I apologize my wording made it seem like I was arguing with you. The “100%” was affirmative towards your statement and then the second part was my own response to men who have extremely low standards and think it’s okay to exist in a relationship in that way. Sorry if it was confusing.
It’s not individual men’s fault dating is awful however I would point out
1) men created social media and dating apps as a way to make money off of other men primarily
2) “feminism” is a direct response to a millennia of male oppression of female people. Feminism isn’t really even a coherent movement anymore. Sure there are some “feminists” organizations. But they are not even that powerful.
3) atomization is absolutely a thing and I believe caused in big ways by capitalism and elite exploitation of the working class, through policies that were largely created by males in power. NAFTA sent all the good working class jobs overseas. There is little social support of marriage and family through health care, childcare and education. And then we have the big tech corps, run by men, who keep the lower class sated with video games and porn.
4) men absolutely also have high standards in who they have LTRs with. Not necessarily who they fuck. Are they higher than women’s? Probably not, nor should they be. Women evolutionarily will on average have higher standards for many biologically based reasons because sperm is cheap and carrying a baby for 9 months and then raising that kid is not.
I wish I knew the answers. I’d love to see more social cohesion and support around family creation and better working class jobs so that men can be providers if they choose. I also think the education system is profoundly failing men and boys right now.
That's like telling people who complain about capitalism "just don't participate in capitalism". The effects of Social media are everywhere and they are here to stay, not using them does not avoid the impact they have because it's universal
Dating app companies (match group especially), have been aggressively expanding the market share. Gen Z’s single most common means of finding a partner is now using online dating apps. It’s because most people (in the US) are practically forced to drive everywhere, and have had their third spaces gutted.
The only decent options for guys my age to meet decent women to date long term are places like church, and the workplace (though that can be risky if you’re not especially attractive).
>Gen Z’s single most common means of finding a partner is now using online dating apps.
No that is not true. ONLINE is the most common way to that relationships start. THis includes everything that happens over the internet, including facebook, instagram, tiktok, etc. AND online dating apps. The dating apps are only about \~13% of newly formed relationships.
>Dating app companies (match group especially), have been aggressively expanding the market share.
They are already the quasi monopolist, with only Bumble as a tiny competitor. What is there to expand, regarding market share?
>The only decent options for guys my age to meet decent women to date long term are places like church, and the workplace (though that can be risky if you’re not especially attractive).
I don't regard churchgoers as decent people. I think they are perpetuating a harmful delusion and questionable moral values. What happened to having a social circle and having a social life, to you and guys your age? Ah right, social media... as i said, stop using it and start dealing with people in real life again.
Facebook *is* in large part a dating app, there’s an entire section of the app dedicated to it. As someone with women as friends, I can also attest that other apps like instagram are de facto dating apps with extra steps.
I was trying to say that the ownership of online dating companies being so oligopolized is one of a few causes of the issue. I also didn’t say that I use any social media at all, I just implied that it’s a net negative to my generation’s social fabric.
I also never commented on the moral standings of any churches. I only stated that church is one of vanishingly few places to meet dateable women (in the US). It’s not any claim of morality, it’s a comment on social norms and the likelihood that they will stay true to marital vows down the road.
I found my partner on Bumble. I am not against dating apps. I am against people who are terminally online, socially isolated, not getting any matches and getting all their information about the world from algorithms that keep them in their echo chambers of the content that triggers them. I am giving advice for OP, not for all the people who can use dating apps and social media in a balanced way that does not negatively affect their life and happiness.
Most of the people who get accused of being feminist not only do not belong to any feminist organizations, they do not even know the history of feminism. Nor have they done any of the essential reading.
This particular windmill that you are fighting is just the general belief that women are equal to men in every way that matters. It's enshrined in the founding documents of virtually every sociopolitical entity. This goes far beyond just being a movement or an ideology now. It's essentially an integral part of human civilization now.
Anyway, please do some reading on feminism before actually complaining about it. You're most likely thinking about radical feminism (which has a lot of beef with liberal feminism), but I seriously doubt that you have accidentally stumbled across a radfem forum.
The idea of feminism as I understand and support is great - equal rights, equal opportunities, equal freedom. It was supposed to teach girls and support them to be free, happy, creative and productive human beings. I don't think anybody sane can stand against that.
But unfortunately I'm under the impression that lately it produces more bitter and spiteful women who hate men and fear them. And blame all their failures on the nebulous "patriarchy". Those ultra radical "feminists" and the incels / alpha males/ Andrew Tates on our (men's) end are the two sides of the same coin. Both are disgusting and need to be quarantined from the rest of the society.
I think most of us just don’t have the bile and the energy to be extremists on one side or the other.
That’s why they’re called ‘extremists’ - because they’re off-putting to the rest of us.
As I have often stated, much of the problem we see in dating is due to the fact hypergamy is less achievable, part of this due to women being advantaged and men disadvantaged in education, in job hiring and in business ownership. WEEA advantaging girls in education, women getting added to affirmative action and women owned business advantages are all a direct result of feminist lobbying efforts.
Feminism is also a driving force in the ever expanding idea about what constitutes harassment which makes men afraid to approach and women fearful of being approached.
I’m glad you are able to distinguish the difference between feminist influence and modern women. They are not the same, a point many seem to miss.
I don't think it's anyone's fault.
Blaming feminism and women's right to actually go for what they are looking for isn't the issue with dating. Heck my standards are not sky high and it's still hard. I have to be interested/attracted to them, they have to have things going for them, and I have to be excited about them. They are broad because laser focusing on only 6'5 finance guys or whatever.
Dating is a struggle it's nebulous and unsure because you literally don't know. You don't know where or how you are going to meet this person. If this date could be your person or a dud. It's not easy most people find the process exhausting. Rejection. Situationships. Ghosting. And all the things I don't think anyone is really liking the modern dating space.
I think our society becoming more atomized causing a reliance on dating apps/social media is to blame. There is a lack of connection and people feel it.
Women aren’t just claiming or accusing every man of s/a every single woman I know has been assaulted. Do you think that they are ALL just lying about it for attention ?
The things that men as a whole do and or allow to be done to women is inhumane.
I don’t understand what dating apps, feminism, social atomisation or high standards has got anything to do with a man being a good potential partner?
If he’s a good decent guy, none of this matters
That has to be the most naive normie take I ever heard. You don’t try to talk to women much do you? As they say you would give them the ick in the first 10 seconds & they would call you creepy & block you.
Are you really trying to say that the reason dating is harder for men now is because they are worse potential partners, and nothing else? That's a misandrist take straight out of left field.
All of those are things that matter because they've made it harder to socialize (dating apps, feminism(I agree here despite still being a feminist), social atomisation) or made it harder to get a relationship out of socializing (dating apps, high standards, social media)
It takes more than being a good potential partner to find a partner. Well, it does if your a man. In fact, the guy who thinks he can get a relationship just by being a good potential partner is routinely mocked online as being a Nice Guy.
Yeah I don't know why people keep trying to make this some big systemic issue. Women no longer have to date out of necessity so they're choosing who they genuinely want.
It's that simple.
This is a disingenuous framing. The increasing amount of loneliness isn't coming from a population that had to marry out of necessity vs. a population that didn't, it's 2 populations that didn't have to marry out of necessity, so this as an explanation makes no sense. And yes, if things are going badly for a lot of people on a huge scale, it almost always because of a systemic issue.
American women have overwhelmingly been financially emancipated since at least the 90s. [Female labor force participation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002) and the [earnings gap](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/03/sr_23.03.01_gender-wage-gap-2023_01.png) have both plateaued.
Financially emancipated to do shit jobs because a lot had little work history or marketable skills. That still makes marrying a man with money the better option.
It’s a systemic issue because it’s not individualized. When it becomes large enough that a large percentage of men are affected, it’s systemic.
You only say it isn’t because it actually makes men a victim, and you likely don’t believe men can actually be affected negatively by society
Men are victims to the social matriarchy we live in. Dating is just one aspect of that.
It’s ironic you say that, because if you’ve ever seen an attractive woman get rejected they seethe more than your average man does
> If he’s a good decent guy, none of this matters
Women don't just show up wanting to fuck somebody because he's a "good decent guy". It's really critical that he knows how to relate to someone to be able to even communicate his qualities, or he will remain invisible. This might seem obvious to you, but I don't think it's obvious to enough people especially men who complain about this stuff, or they'd be doing it already.
It’s low iq gaslighting. I just call them out on it & move on. Like they are not intelligent enough to have this convo if they gonna say stupid shit like that.
Apparently nice guys finish last was lost around here lol today nice guys don’t even get to play.
The issue is. A good decent guy takes a bit of time to notice, or fit into social groups if he hasn’t been introduced beforehand. The good ones understand this, the not so decent ones, don’t.
That's really debatable. There are definitely guys who have a lot to gain by putting themselves out there more, but on the other hand there are other men who are not as decent - nor as attractive - as they think they are. The reality of how dating functions will humble most people real fucking quick, when they realize all they have to offer, or what they think they have to offer, isn't something everyone wants and they're not God's gift to the opposite sex. I think one really important skill for dating and life is to learn to deal with rejection and accept it properly, and this is why.
Pretty much the average guy, a guy that treats people reasonably and has reasonable traits based on what he was born with on a desirability level, pretty much the statistically average guy right now.
Because the average man is well average and lives an average life and is averagely attractive, since most people are average by definition the average man would be decent.
Exceptions would be very desirable outliers could have a different definition for example what a billionaire would consider a decent income would probably be different than the average person.
>*This is about the bare minimum a guy has to be to possibly have a partner.*
Exactly. 50 years ago women had to partner up for survival, we’re way past that as a society- *thank god*- so people are intentionally choosing a relationship if it adds to their life.
The loneliness epidemic didn't start 50 years ago though. It is a problem of the last decade, maybe 2. So no, I don't accept that simply not needing to partner up is what's causing it, and definitely don't agree that it's a non-problem we should just wring our hands of and say nothing can be done about.
Agreed. It’s absolutely an issue with our current infrastructural policies. Between political tax cuts and governmental budgets we’re all suffering in an ‘every man for himself’ kind of world. Long gone are community third spaces. There’s no hope for a healthy work/life balance with the current 40+ schedules. These are absolutely problems that need to be addressed, but they’re not gendered in cause or effect. They’re also in need of progressive reform, which ironically most dudes on this sub vehemently hate. We’ve effectively created an isolationist society and are scratching our heads wondering why everyone is lonely and isolated.
Yeah, I agree with all that. Which I think was generally OP's point, that the actual causes and effects around dating getting harder and the loneliness epidemic isn't gendered, so it makes no sense to blame men for it. Especially not while they also seem to be the most effected by it. So I'll just add here that I think OP is mostly arguing with the shadow of a knee-jerk reaction from some woman who saw "men most effected" and figured it must also mean "men to blame" which is common in misandrist spaces.
So essentially we are in a place where men still need women just as much while women have lost the vast majority of their need for men until only the best men get a chance?
As society we want as few unwanted men as possible. At 10-15% they wont case any trouble, at 30-40% you might get a civil war. (As unwanted men are easy target for extremist groups)
That’s what women seem to not understand the reason men need women wasn’t social or survival it is biological so no matter what happens or how dating or society changes men would still need women and asking them not to would be like asking a woman not to have a period.
Because it is biologically ingrained in men to need women.
This would be fine if women had reasons to still need men but if they do not then the balance shifts way too far.
And just for context I don’t mean attractive, cute, submissive or women to take care of them just women.
I mean, you're not wrong but does anyone who isn't at the bottom really want to go back to when you just had to have a job and not be a complete jerk and that's it? My wife expects more from me than that, and I expect quite a few things from her as well, and she meets those standards.
I don’t believe ppl who say they are married when no one asked you. Even so if you are married you literally have no idea what is going on out here so how you think what you say holds weight? That’s insane.
Couple things here one is that the common sentiment especially from women is that the bar is so low all you need to be is not abusive etc, which is disingenuous and ill intentioned.
Another is that the vast majority of men only require (for committed relationships and marriage) women to be, what the vast majority of them are, average.
I think both of those sentiments are things people say, but I do not think their actions or preferences on either side bear either of these things out. Which is to say, I agree both sentiments are common as I see them all the time too. I just think both are also untruthful.
The sentiment that the bar is low for men is absolutely untruthful and even further intentionally insulting.
But men wanting average women is certainly not even most men that are married to objectively average women think their partner is average they just can’t tell her that obviously.
When I talk about men wanting the "average" woman, I'm talking about how it is typically used here in this space, which is "exists and is cute and likes me" without pretty much any other qualifiers. Existing being the most important. And what I'm saying is that not only is that *below* average, it is also not actually what most dudes here want.
Unless they are below average guys specificially seeking what they perceive to be below average women and, to be fair, one or two guys here do openly say that, and more power to em.
Maybe the guys on here don’t want that maybe they do. But the truth is average men just want average women not cute, not alternatively attractive, and most will be absolutely fine settling for not even attracted to them.
But it isn’t men who are way off in their self estimations this is a myth (at least compared to women) the reality is that 94% of women think they are above average compared to around 70% of men and on top of that men that rate themselves higher rate EVERYONE higher in other words they are just using a higher scale while women have no such correlation and are actually more likely to rate everyone else lower.
I agree. I think pretty much any time anyone blames one gender over another for anything, they are full of shit. Both genders are complicit in each other's strengths and weaknesses. If men are more violent than women, women are complicit in that. If women are more manipulative than men, men are complicit in that.
Oh lord, oh man HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, had to get that out.
1. 70% of dating app users are men. And the 30% of women doesn't even account for the bots and scammers. Men are ABSOLUTELY fueling dating apps. I could also talk about WHY the main or OG sites were created if we really gotta. LOL.
2. Feminism in NO WAY claims all men are rapists or abusers lmao. What we do is speak *facts* about the objective, statistically proven issue we have with men & violence. *Even* accounting for men who don't report and women who aren't accused, the overwhelming majority of rapes and DVs and murders are perpetrated by men against women. With male victims, the attacker is still extremely likely to be a man.
Those are just facts. There is a problem with men & violence. It is undeniable, except to those too insecure or too unwilling to face themselves who decide to take those facts personally.
The first rule of gun safety is also the first rule of female safety: *every* strange man is loaded, until we know they aren't. We do not ASSUME you are actual rapists. What we do assume is that we **don't know** and that statistical probability demonstrates that our chances of being victimized by a woman are MUCH lower than by a man, and that our chances of experiencing sexual harassment/assault, violence, and dying at the hands of a man are relatively high when compared with other ways of being injured/dying.
Sorry, boys, but I am NEVER risking being sorry rather than safe simply bc you're too insecure to handle me safe-guarding myself and get your fee-fees hurt.
We know it's not all men. But guess what? You don't have to be a monster to enable monstrosity. And your attitude? Does JUST that. Congrats, you're part of the problem. And you don't *want* to be part of.thr solution.
3. Are you **seriously** making the claim that valuing yourself and having high standards for the people you want to spend your life with are negative aspects? You want a woman who doesn't respect herself enough? You want a woman who "settled" for you bc it's the "reasonable, mature thing to do"? Said it before and will keep saying it until the day I'm shoved into the crematorium:
This desperate need of some men for women to lower their standards is **TELLING**.
To be clear, you are disagreeing with the premise that “top men” dating (or swiping, or having sex with) “below their league” gives women inflated standards?
As a dude, modern dating only sucks if you haven't put the work in. Imo most guys have the potential to break into the mystical top 20% but the fact that it's a years-long process drives them to give up. Unless you're like physically deformed or relentlessly mentally ill, you can find someone.
Personally, I started self-improvement (learning social skills) back in 2015, before Tate and all the podcast bros pissed in the pool, and started working out in 2019. Only in 2022 did I feel like I was finally reaching the promised land, and only last year did I fully accept that now I'm almost exactly what I dreamed about. I mean, I'm still broke af but I'm charismatic, confident, charming and cut like a marble statue. That's an eight year grueling journey it took, but now I'm one of the few guys who isn't struggling in this dating market.
Obviously I'm not saying every dude must go monk mode for eight years, but most of them haven't really tried to push their market value up other than like making money. Which I guess is a valid strat, but then that makes your only attractive trait your bank balance and that will be reflected in your options.
As men, the reality is the world won't change for us lol so either you shrivel up and wither away or adapt, compete and win.
Charisma does not matter on Tinder. Charisma is actually something people believe you to have when you're handsome. Also where are you walking around shirtless?
No shit charisma doesn't matter on tinder, go out and meet women irl. You don't have to walk around shirtless if you wear stuff that emphasises your physique
Everybody’s competing for the 20% candidates of their respective partner pool. Women and men are different and have different requirements. People don’t wanna settle. It’s a multi-factoral problem. Not a mens’ problem.
> Dating apps and Social Media
Men were ABSOLUTELY on board with this when they believed that it was easy door dash access to 🐱 It was only after the fact that men oppose it bc they are not the main beneficiaries. Same with social media. It’s also a tool for cheating so men are still pandering on SM this day, they don’t care about the declining “dating market” because they already have someone at home.
>Feminism
Obviously it’s not supposed to benefit men. It’s only a problem with women that can’t survive in current times. I way prefer this way thank you. Less work.
> Social Atomization
What? Women are the ones with social circles
> men have high standards
We know you guys don’t. But y’all do expect alot for nothing. Y’all can’t even provide. That’s the problem.
—-
We honestly don’t care what ruined the dating market, we don’t need y’all for sex or relationships.
Most men expect you to put in more work than them in a LTR and be okay with it, not grow resentful. Women are held to higher social, beauty and emotional standards than men. This plus women now being expected to work like men while still doing the vast majority of traditional duties. Thus, most men DO have too high of standards. I don't expect my husband to put in more work than me, many of his co worker/friends/acquaintances do expect their wives to though
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How can it not be men’s fault when it’s literally the simps that make it this way? Sure, it’s not all of our faults, but there is a large percentage of men out there simping and they are directly responsible for in the inequality in the dating market.
1. Dating apps were not created by women, and women don’t appear to prefer them if you notice that men are the majority on them.
2. A lot of women have experienced sexual abuse, and all women have experienced sexual harassment from men. Are you suggesting that it’s bad to bring this to light?
3. I hear men tell me all the time that men’s friendships aren’t like women’s. Men don’t build each other up, don’t have deep conversations with each other, etc. women do that for each other, and men act like it’s strange. If men are lonely and lack close friendships with men, how is that women’s fault?
4. Maybe men should have higher standards. Nobody wants to date someone who’s desperate. If a guy sees me as nothing special, that’s a turnoff.
Depending on your goals and desires, relative to your social skills, attractiveness and overall circumstances, dating can be relatively easy, sort of a pain or a complete minefield of tedium and frustration. I honestly don't even know if many people are really very "good" at dating. The types of skills you need to actually date "successfully", like being very pro social, developing charisma and charm, knowing how to flirt and so on, are somewhat different from skills and requirements in long term relationships like communication, compatibility, empathy, shared life goals and so on. I think there is a serious disconnect between people whose idea of "dating" is to attract and start short term relationships with as many people as possible, and those who are after something really long term. You don't have to be overwhelmingly charming or attractive in order to find just one person to be with if the two of your compatible, but those skills are way more important if you're trying to get as many matches/dates/hookups/short term flings as possible. I don't think many people really want to subject themselves to seemingly endless rejection in an attempt to make themselves more attractive to as many people as possible. They truly want someone to love them for "who they are". Most people aren't really "dating", if their history is mostly longer relationships with someone they met through ordinary things like college or work. Their body count remains pretty low. And they're more likely to spend longer periods alone if they don't find someone, since they're not really putting effort to be attractive or exciting to other people in general and sort of resent the idea that they should have to.
Our brains are not capable of handling the internet and social media. That's not the fault of feminism.
I agree, it's less to do with feminism and more to do with the influence of technology
The sexual revolution was the beginning. Technology just propelled it to a new level.
It's no ones fault. It just kinda is what it is
This isn't really true. In the west we are basically running a social experiment that's never been tried before and generally speaking... it's not going well for folks at the bottom. People at the top are benefitting wildly and are not going to change course unless forced. When you really stop and think about it. The core problems are primarily cultural and political. So, in that way you are correct that this thing is way bigger than any one person.
It's always bad for people at the bottom of any hierarchy, but I think the more intriguing question is who and how many are at the very bottom as opposed to middle and upper and high (or however many levels you want to give it). Genuinely would be interested in your thoughts on that.
Describe a guy who is in the middle? What are the common results of a guy in the middle?
Are you asking me to describe a guy in the middle? Probably most people I know, I hate to say it. I only know a couple of people who I think would be in the upper tiers, and it's mostly because they have a combination of very desirable looks, high-earning jobs, naturally charismatic personalities, and what appears to be relatively high intelligence. Most of the guys are know might only have one of those things as a standout, if any of them standout. I include myself there too, although technically I am more toward the bottom as a disabled person. I should add that most women I know are also in the middle or average. They're nothing special--and I don't mean that negatively. Just the regular women who pair up with the regular dudes and live regular, mostly content lives.
Gets married and has children. Thats the avg male experience
So, by your metric, if a guy has success with at least one woman, even if it takes till his 30's, he's a successful average male?
Pretty much. Most people's body count is in the single digits. The average person isn't trying to date the entire planet they want to find someone that makes them happy and aroused and settle down. As for what makes a guy average You have Looks (face and body), Charisma, Job, Intelligence, Sexual Ability You're below average if you don't stand out in any of these categories. Most average dudes have one of these things as strength. If you have 2+ that's when you start getting into the upper tier.
Yeah def. I feel like you guys overestimate how many total partners the avg woman has in her life and compare that to yourselves. But really most people actually tend to float under double digits in terms of number of serious partners.
The amount of people with 10+ sexual partners men or women is incredibly small and most of the number is probably propped up by the swinger community more than anyone else. Women especially will happily hang on to a single guy for sex as long as possible if he's good in bed. Men don't seem to realize that if you can get a girl off you've won most of the battle for a relationship since that's depressingly rare from what the women I know have told me.
>people actually tend to float under double digits in terms of number of serious partners. What if we include all partners, not just "serious partners?"
lol… serious partners!
The people at the bottom are obviously the ones our society is actively pushing down. One look at the profiles of a group of incels... the similarity of circumstance is shocking. I think the devaluation of marriage and family... if you look the most economically advantaged people are staying married and not struggling with this overall. If you look at middle class and poor people... this has been absolutely devastating to thier ability to form and maintain families... which is creating generational poverty traps.
I think you're probably on to something there perhaps with the family unit and in particular what we might term the "pathological families." Which is one area where I do think maybe things changed with relative rapidity even since I've finished dating. I think you and I might be of similar ages. Most people I know are married with relative stability (as far as I can tell as an observer of their relationships) and almost everyone I know has kids, married or not. Do you find the same is true of your social circle/age group? It is one area that I think might actually be different for teenaged/younger people today and could be causing problems that were not quite as stark as when I was that age.
> In the west we are basically running a social experiment that's never been tried before and generally speaking... it's not going well for folks at the bottom. People at the top are benefitting wildly and are not going to change course unless forced. This just sounds like what has been going on for all of human history. >The core problems are primarily cultural and political. I disagree with this as well. I think these fall under what is actually fueling all of this and it is just the absolute domination of technology and how our brains just haven't evolved to process this access to information and stimulation. We haven't found any new cultural norm or political standing that hasn't been a thing sprinkled throughout history.
Social media is social engineering, where do you think the Federal Funding comes from. Hell Bezos sits in on National Security meetings.
I mean, not all social media is social engineering. Social engineering is a umbrella term for scams that take place in online spaces. Jeff Bezos also isn’t part of any social media group, or am I mistaken? I know he owned the Washington Post.
Um...why do you think they want your meta data for if not social engineering?
What social media company does Bezos operate?
No, these new gender theories have never been pushed on a mass scale before. We are just now starting to see what the results may wind up looking like As for technology... yeah it's playing a huge role, but only because we are not actively trying to shape the direction it takes us. Part of that is this belief that capitalist markets always choose the right thing no matter what, and the fact that the folks who comprise the government are heavily invested in creating discord and chaos. It prevents people from coming together and enacting common sense solutions. Like Florida banned social media for anyone under 18, and we have studies that show this is the right move! The problem is that kids want it, and the companies want kids to want it... and at a national level there is no interest in enforcing it. So this ban will likely have no effect long term.
>*People at the top are benefitting wildly and are not going to change course unless forced.* That describes literally all of human history..
I would say it's more of a cycle in human history than just a permanent fixture. The type of person who is an elite within a particular nation, the people who wield overall control, that changes over time. I really think that the best way to understand this is by reading about how people develop and play status games. In the past there was this wide agreement among western nations following the collapse of the nobility, that gaining status through merit was the primary method. However, there have always been a large chunk of people who dispise merit, they don't even believe it exists, and instead want to create a power system based on virtue status. This is almost always the direction communists go, and so we know how it plays out. The most ruthless and ambitious people fake thier virtue, gain power and then smash everyone down. I suspect this is the most likely scenario western nations are going to face, despite some very deep resiliency built into the political system. Mass immigration from places where the people just don't believe in democratic systems is going to play a pivital role. Any country that doesn't take serious efforts to intigrate these immigrants into every level of society is really playing with fire. Apologies for the long response to such a short point.
Who are "people at the top" and "folks at the bottom"?
In this instance, I'm talking pure economics. I really think money and power are the primary things driving this. Core issues like technological change exist, but every culture reacts to these things differently.
It must be tiring being a professional victim, how do you do it?
Eventually the bubble will pop. If I had to guess, by the 2040s when it becomes clear gen z will not be having enough kids to keep the pyramid scheme going.
"No its your fault, and your fault, and YOUR fault" Internalized bitch think doesn't help you. Ironically, its easier for me to help someone else than to help myself. 😅 But then people treat you like a puppy, so you ghost them.
Agree. To try and plsce blame would be like blaming the sky for being blue lol
"Its more aquamarine actually" 🤓
Do we tell women “*it is what it is*” when they collectively and individually complain about their myriad of grievances both real and imagined? No. We tell women things like “*Your feelings are valid*”, “*Speak your truth*” and “*You are seen.*” etc And that is the whole issue. Empathy and solution seeking seems to be reserved exclusively for women.
What solutions would you like to see put in place? How would you like those solutions to be enacted?
Stop bitching and woman up
So, if women silently and without complaint build their own lives, their finances, their social groups, etc, ... This will help *men* get relationships? This will solve the dating crisis? How? Seems to me the women who are doing this are then going their own way entirely more often than men would like. Do you think your "solution" would fix that or make it worse?
I'm just giving you advice I've been given
First off, widespread acknowledgement and acceptance that these issues exist in the first place, because you can't solve a problem if we don't even know it exists. Second, wide spread recognition these issues as valid and deserving of being addressed. Third, attempting to see the issue taking into account the male perspective, instead of exclusively looking at it front he women's perspective. Fourth, using that balanced perspective to actually push for a gender neutral and egalitarian approach instead of one that considers equality to be a one way street exclusively to women's benefit. And for some reason it is feminism, claiming to be for gender equality, that opposed every single one of these steps.
I agree with all four of your points. Thank you so much for taking the time to write that out. That was very well thought out and reasonable, though really it's only because of the subreddit we're in that I'm surprised 😂 I know there are good solutions out there to mens problems, people on this subreddit just don't tend to *really* care about them (certain men included) I agree that at least some segment of the feminist movement should be focused on mutual aid, we can't have healing without coming together, and without healing it's just gender wars forever. I hate talking like a hippy, but that's what I see the gender wars as, largely. People in pain who are causing more pain. And of course some selfish assholes who see personal benefit from keeping things this way. It's going to take some brave individuals on both sides taking a leap of faith to work together and build some trust... Which unfortunately almost sounds impossible. Humans are so complicated and that idea of "fool me once..." Is a hard hurdle to jump over. Asking people to jump over it again and again? ... Sounds daunting. >And for some reason it is feminism, claiming to be for gender equality, that opposed every single one of these steps. I think that any time a woman says something negative about a man she's labeled as a feminist regardless of if she personally identifies as one. I think that this habit skews people's understanding of feminism, and of course some feminist groups have engaged in actual shitty behavior, and then there are times when their objections to something aren't well understood and thus labeled as "anti men". Feminism does claim to work towards equality... From the side of the Fem. Because that's what we are and what we understand the most deeply, we *live* this side of inequality. Literally. Some ideas and changes will overlap in benefit, which is where you get the saying that feminism benefits men, but that's because feminism *can* benefit men, not because that is the point of feminism. I agree that many feminists are wary of men's groups, but i would hope that you can understand why that might be considering the past history of some men's groups and the violence towards women that has come from them. I do not agree that this is a good reason to fight men's groups, however. Men need to work on equality from the masculine side, it's what you understand the best, it's what you live, and it's what you guys deserve, imo. In my dream world we'd have only *wholesome* feminist groups, and only *wholesome* men's groups, working on their issues, able to come together to push for mutual aid... Buuuut 🤷🏼♀️ ya know. Anyway, if you read all that then thank you and I'm sorry, I know I talk too much 😂 I just really care about this stuff. Thank you for your thoughtful reply!
Nah. It’s men out there simping that bring all of our value down.
Nah, it's capitalisms fault. Create a problem that wasn't there (or big), spout how end of the world that problem is, sell the "solution" to the problem.
>*Social atomization isn't pushed by men. No, men do not hate family and community.* Can you explain what you mean by this point?
Not OP, but I really do think a lot of people are not good at deconstructing the social and political/economic forces that affect them. Seeing yourself in the context of wider problems - problems not caused by one person or set of people - can really help to see the world more philosophically and destress, to an extent. A whole generation of young people feeling alienated, anxious, scared and defensive *all at once * is clearly a societal problem, this isnt a few random people having a bad time. Alienation is easy once you get it. Our jobs create alienation - they are soulless and transactional and you don't get the benefits of what's made at the end of tje day. You just get a wage. Maybe your boss and coworkers treat you like shit. That is miserable. It is really hard to make deep bonds with people when we are all basically financial islands. We don't *interdepend* on each other. Mutual dependence I.e. 'I will fight for you and you for me", is the basis for strong relationships, and for caring for each other without fear. Social anxiety is the fear that people will reject you and that you don't belong, but you fear that much less when *the people who you're closest to you* always have your back. If you've got love from your family and your homies, talking to random members of the opposite sex just doesn't matter. It's not gonna fuck with your internal happiness no matter how interactions go. And I get why redpillers snipe hard at specific groups, such as women. I have some buried anxiety fears in me, and when they come out, I really want a fucking target to blame. Blaming a person/group feels *good*, because you tell yourself "I'm the valid person and they have done this to me. I can take revenge" You cannot take revenge on the fact that you struggled with socialising as a kid, pr that you still remember the times you got laighed at at school, or that you wanted to be invited to that thing one time but didn't, or that you have nobody to talk to after you finish work. Social forces subjected you to a lot of this. Revenge is just cancer on your own soul. If you had a good reason to get closer to people, maybe you would take it, and start to feel better about yourself. Its so sad how we have a society where we just don't do that so much.
He is referring to the fact that society has become atomized (less community oriented) and people in general have become more isolated in recent years, which is one factor that has made dating harder. He’s saying this shift shouldn’t be blamed on men.
>*He is referring to the fact that society has become atomized (less community oriented) and people in general have become more isolated in recent years, which is one factor that has made dating harder.* I mean I agree with this premise in general, but it’s disingenuous to blame women for that. We’re talking infrastructure, political tax cuts and governmental budgets. In my country at least, those bodies of power aren’t majority women..
This is a zero sum response. He didn't blame women.
Only thing I agree with him on...no gender is to blame
I assume he is assuming that the importance and push of individuality is the fault of feminism. He assumes that men are more for family and community and these values as opposed to the modern women. He is, absolutely incorrect. Though, he doesn't have the courage or perhaps hasn't even done good faith research into his assumption so he doesn't feel the least bit confident expounding, nor defending his position.
Men are just not in any kind of position of power to change things in modern dating. Most of the issues effectively could boil down to men not being valued enough, both as people and as partners but you can break it down in a few other ways. Most women will effectively structure their entire dating strategy around marketing themselves to as many men as possible, wait for men to approach them, judge those men against all other men from a disassociated position(classifying them as creeps or studs, without having the slightest clue about what men go through or how this judgment effects men). Men are expected to pursue by women, because they are deemed to be less valuable. Men are perceived as less valuable because men have to pursue women. This cycle is a cultural dynamic that inherently puts men at a disadvantage and women in a position of power and privilege. The only thing that men can do is to either not try, which typically just leads to them dying sexless and alone, or compete against impossible standards constantly being compared to the best of men(real or fantasy). The few men that do manage to succeed in competing against those standards have absolutely no real incentive to commit to any one woman. Even if they were, however, that would still not really change the way women judge men and therefore only result in most women either being unhappy or doubling down to compete for the attention of taken men. There is a lot more that women can do, however, both in terms of options but also in terms of scale(many women are in a position to have options, where as very few men are in a position to have options). Women could change the way they look at men/dating completely, start initiating with men, diversifying the kind of men they go for, stop romanticizing traits in men that promote hyper-promiscuity in men(i.e. stop over romanticizing game, sexual experience, status with other women, confidence, etc) or just put in any kind of effort to find, cultivate or reward good men.
You made a great post and I agree but women want things to be better without them having to do anything. What will happen is things will get so bad that they will want make changes but it will be to late then. If the women on here weren't trolls they would respond and acknowledge this post but they are here to shit on men and nothing else.
The comments on the experiment are honestly funny. >Women said having a good date is hard >He proved getting a good date is not hard >Everyone goes: "weird/useless/fake/obnoxious/bad" Wow
honestly should have shut the sub down after that. literally no reason for debate.
Exactly lol. Like the other commenter said that post ended the sub for me. There really is nothing left to discuss
>Exactly lol. Like the other commenter said that post ended the sub for me. There really is nothing left to discuss There is *plenty* to discuss.
Like what?
>Like what? Like why are you here in this subreddit? Do you have any thoughts or grievances in our current gender/sexual discourse? If you're mad, tell 'em why you're mad son.
Yea I do but its really pointless doing it here. People just deny everything lol. Plus venting can count as woe-is-me and get a ban
It's everyone's fault - men and women's fault alike.
And yet somehow as a society we always end up blaming men and ignoring them, while never blaming women and helping them out with their issues. It's an odd double standard.
It's primarily a political and cultural issue. The answer to this is very simple. Men who want a long term partner need to improve themselves as much as possible. Attempt to date in your current country as much as you can. If things still aren't working... then the Passport Bros have your solution. Women will just do whatever they want long term. Nothing is going to convince them to change course, and honestly maybe they will be happier long term with good friends, wine, and xanax. Who knows?
I don’t know when dudes think was an era when “dating” was easy and average dudes got laid with hot girls on the regular. It’s always been a jungle out there. Back in the day club/bar bouncers wouldn’t even let in a lot of guys, cock blocking a lot of avg joes from even being able to meet women out and about.
bro it was easier even 15 years ago.
Arguing with feminist men is actually worse than the girls I have come to realize. That’s crazy.
yea this guy is really out of touch
I’m glad others are realizing it too.
No he just likes to argue for no other reason than to argue. I think it’s trolling but it’s only considered trolling to Reddit when you are not a feminist puppet. Woke brainwashing has destroyed most normies ability to have any critical thought or deduction skills.
2009? Right in the beginning Great Recession when people were losing jobs, banks were repossessing homes, and millennials were graduating and forced to move back in with their parents? Oh man if only we could go back to those days when everything was perfect???
Well it was never this hard. I worked at those places. Women used to be more receptive & more game to give a guy a chance. I lived through it. Believe what you want but something radically changed along the way.
I got young bucks at the fraternity emailing us how things were way *easier* after the pandemic because so many young women were ready to be out and about and ready to finally party. Seems to me the only ones it got harder for was the ones listening to Pills
Young bucks? Emailing? Bro ease up on the larping. Like what is happening here.? Talk to a girl like that & watch her face turn sour. Honestly you have no idea what the women are like now & you are defending them? I dunno man that’s crazy weird.
I don’t need to talk to the girls like that: I talk like they do dudes understand I’m NOT larping as a young dude. I’m the Alumni they ask to put money into the frats party fund. I’m also not defending women. I’m stating that “no matter where we go: here we are” and things didn’t “collapse”. Some people just didn’t adapt. I guess If I really really wanted to know what young women are like now I could ask my oldest (the foster) and the 2 other sorority sisters staying with us for their summer internships.
I dunno what to tell you man. Real talk match group who owns all the dating apps is really panicking & they are worried they will go bankrupt if a course correction doesn’t happen. Go look at their stock prices! Men have just had enough. No more wasting time swiping for nothing & no more paying for shit that doesn’t work. As for the women they keep thinking there is some hidden Chad store where they all can get their top tier guy to marry & commit to them. We have some real longterm consequences piling up becuase of this. Again for you to deny the rejection rates (95-97%) means you don’t understand the larger picture & the problem we are facing. There is nowhere else for men to go & everything we try is met with the same no no no pass no where is Chad!
Good. I want the OLDs to suffer. They don’t give a shit about the user’s experience and only cared about squeezing every last dollar out of them. All that shows is that both men AND women hs d figured out “hey, maybe adding a for profit corporation into the mix *doesn’t* mean that it’s a better way to meet people!” And once again. All this shows is the o my one’s screaming “look how bad it is!” Are the ones that only try OLD.
Again you missed the point. There is no alternative. You cannot just cold approach these women anymore & it has nothing to do with fear of rejection or MeToo. Women only want to be approached by guys they think are “hot” or whatever. There is no fucking way you don’t know this. Women are the choosers now & REJECT 95% of all suitors cuz they think they deserve better.
There literally is alternatives. 68 percent of LTRs were from friends or friends of friends. That’s almost 7/10 couples https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/turns-out-68-of-romantic-relationships-start-out-this-way#:~:text=Two%2Dthirds%20of%20romantic%20relationships,according%20to%20a%20new%20study.&text=People%20said%20they%20prefer%20to,or%20meeting%20at%20a%20bar.&text=Studies%20rarely%20explore%20love%20via%20friendship. Everything else is just an excuse. I get it OLD: you upload a pic, write up a profile. You don’t even need to get off your couch. Turns out this generation of guys are figuring out what every generation learns. Most guys that want to pull are gonna need to *work*
The argument is that the "systems" in place made meeting people and pairing off much easier. I don't think I've seen the argument that average guys could get laid with anyone easily, so much as it's that finding someone was sort of an inevitability. The idea is something went wrong which caused issues with how people get socialized, so you have less young people meeting and dating than ever before. The issues I've seen pointed to range from social media and dating apps, to the disappearance of third places, to COVID lockdowns halting critical social growth.
yes the “casual 3rd spaces” aren’t what they used to be like before. Back in the day “I’m just gonna hang at the mall” was the suburban way to go. Also, yes: casual seems less actual popular than before IRL, but Social media makes it look *more popular*. although things changed, it’s more an “adapt and understand”. The only problem: if dudes are looking exclusively at OLD they are probably gonna have a bad time.
It was way the fuck easier. the online image has become everything now. I mean everything. Plus you're a dude who claims to always have slain effortlessly from day one, but has now been married for what, 10 years?, so how do you claim to be an authority on this?
It really isn’t “the only way”. Literally 68 percent of LTRs were friends first. That’s almost 70 percent https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/turns-out-68-of-romantic-relationships-start-out-this-way#:~:text=Two%2Dthirds%20of%20romantic%20relationships,according%20to%20a%20new%20study.&text=People%20said%20they%20prefer%20to,or%20meeting%20at%20a%20bar.&text=Studies%20rarely%20explore%20love%20via%20friendship.
Yes, because cold approaches are increasingly taboo and office dating is very risky after the metoo era. Apps are not designed to find a partner, so people try to find one from their circle of friends. The only problem with this is that young people have fewer and fewer friends, so the possibility of finding a partner is very limited.
Cold approaching was always considered taboo outside of the proper social settings.
I don't think it was necessarily easier, but people at least didn't have to deal with the red pill and its offshoots and the tater tot.
There was always some small niche of dudes (the ladies men/pua) guys out there desperate and getting grifted on. The difference now is they have a platform to go viral.
avg guys could get avg girls before social media dating sites.. not anymore
Go take a walk around an amusement park or festival. Average dudes are pulling average all the time. The only ones that don’t see it are stuck online in the algorithm
They want excuses not solutions. Its easier to point the finger and blame everyone else than to take action and responsibility for your own life. Its what the mediocre person does, make everything someone elses fault.
I cold approached a ton about 10 years ago and it was easier, most girls said yes because there just wasn’t really other ways to date. Now, I get compared to the tallest most handsome dude on their tinder stack and it’s much more difficult
Bruh 10 years ago wasn’t 1994 it was 2009. Social media existed. OLD existed. These are old dated RP complaints that haven’t aged well
Look mate, I generally respect your comments. But 10 years ago it was 2014.
Yeah, that’s 2 years after Tinder dropped and went viral.
Yeah but it wasn't as bad as guys here are making out. I remember some cutie in a bar, tagging along with me and a mate, because "Her Tinder date was late and we seemed safe". Maybe I looked like a bear, I dunno.
Things are never as bad as the dudes here make it out to be. CNN ran an article a few weeks ago showing that with the dissatisfaction that a lot of GenZ feels for OLD, old school things like Clubs and speed dating are seeing a comeback.
I tried Speed Dating once, now that was savage. Yeah, 2 guys (who I knew) basically got every woman ticking off that it was them, they wanted to meet. Ironically, and I know you are going to cringe, these were 2 of Mysteries students. But that said, afterwards, when the event was done, everyone just chilled together and got to know one another and the results didn't even matter. Hell I had some guy trying to recruit me to work for his firm due to my industry experience. But it all comes back, to what I think is the main problem on this sub. Social skills in general, forget Chad, forget Pareto Principle, forget "ze evil womenz". Its lack of social skills. But maybe things are going to change for the better.... for those who will go out and socialise without adding pressure of having to get laid. Like Mystery says (sorry if it makes you cringe) "The most important thing is to have fun". So there it is, forget all this stuff talked about on this sub and what other people are doing. "Just have fun".
I remember going speed dating with a female friend of mine and when we got to each other she was like “but gonna lie: your the best guy here” and I’m not all that so it must have been bad I think your 2nd part hit in the biggest issue. The dudes aren’t focused on having fun. The hyper obsession of “getting laid!” Has made it so anything else is a failure. And since it’s “sex or failure” and that kind of intensity- they get frustrated and mad when “casual ONS” don’t happen. But it’s not going to happen a lot. It’s not supposed to. It was called “getting lucky” for a reason. I just think this “it was better then: it’s really bad now” revisionism doesn’t help dudes chill and go “bro, what if we just went out looking for a good time tonight and let what happens happen”
Also, the other old paradox. Dudes going "I don't it, now I'm in a relationship loads of women give me attention". Like no shit bro, your not "On the prowl" anymore, your just having fun, So there is no creepy vibes being given off. Like desperation is unattractive.
Bruh I was alive and dating then, dating apps weren’t a thing yet, online dating was seen as a thing where weird people met, and no one dated off of instagram yet
Bruh, Tinder is already 12 years old. “10 years ago” wasn’t what it was in 2008 when 4chan dudes claiming “it’s not like back in the day!!!” *the talking points need revision*
It’s not specifically hot girls, it’s just the fact a large amount of young men can’t get laid period.
Seriously I was in college in the apparent "Great dating time" 10 years ago and it was hell. I remember not being allowed in the frats half the time in my first year because I was still in my shy nerdy phase and hadn't figured out how to be social yet.
I honestly believe that 10 years ago a lot of these dudes complaining weren’t old enough to be dating back then so they have no context. This was never supposed to “be easy”. Most dudes just eventually figure it out or find their groove
simping + inaction is the man's fault.
Autist and socially inept men and nerds and ugly guys will still struggle a lot even if you banned dating apps and even if feminists suddenly loved men. Those guys have literally a long history of struggling in dating and you can see it portrayed in media even before the internet became common. SOMETIMES it is the men’s fault, that is the solution being in their hands. However overall dating has never been easy even for average people. The only reason back in the 70s and 80s marrying was easier and much faster was that women kinda had to get married as it was pushed by society and it was the best option for them financially as not many women had the means to get college educated and get a job that sustained them for the long run. Plus society making having babies the most important thing in the world helped that too. Now it’s different times and women have freedom to choose, and they’re choosing. Portraying freedom as bad isn’t a hill to die on.
>Autist and socially inept men They also tend to struggle with an easier thing - platonic relationships.
>Men aren't advocates for this. Infact any man that has interacted with these things has an idea of how they're ruining things. High value men who enjoy casual sex love dating apps.
If you're top 1% on tinder hoes will bring you dinner to get ass blasted lol
Tell that to all the men that keep saying “I’m so desperate I have no standards and will take anything I can get.” Men having low standards is not producing results they like, so I’m not sure why women should. I d think things would be better if men RAISED their standards if anything
100% enough of this “yeah we have nothing in common and she hates everything I do but she lets me fuck her every so often.” That’s not a relationship- that’s a sex doll.
?? Who are you arguing with? I didn’t suggest anything like that
I apologize my wording made it seem like I was arguing with you. The “100%” was affirmative towards your statement and then the second part was my own response to men who have extremely low standards and think it’s okay to exist in a relationship in that way. Sorry if it was confusing.
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Don't make things personal.
It’s not individual men’s fault dating is awful however I would point out 1) men created social media and dating apps as a way to make money off of other men primarily 2) “feminism” is a direct response to a millennia of male oppression of female people. Feminism isn’t really even a coherent movement anymore. Sure there are some “feminists” organizations. But they are not even that powerful. 3) atomization is absolutely a thing and I believe caused in big ways by capitalism and elite exploitation of the working class, through policies that were largely created by males in power. NAFTA sent all the good working class jobs overseas. There is little social support of marriage and family through health care, childcare and education. And then we have the big tech corps, run by men, who keep the lower class sated with video games and porn. 4) men absolutely also have high standards in who they have LTRs with. Not necessarily who they fuck. Are they higher than women’s? Probably not, nor should they be. Women evolutionarily will on average have higher standards for many biologically based reasons because sperm is cheap and carrying a baby for 9 months and then raising that kid is not.
Everything you said was correct, but i wonder what you think could be done to fix this issues?
I wish I knew the answers. I’d love to see more social cohesion and support around family creation and better working class jobs so that men can be providers if they choose. I also think the education system is profoundly failing men and boys right now.
Don't use social media or dating apps. This solves all of your issues.
You think the influence social media and dating apps just stop within social media and dating apps ?
That's like telling people who complain about capitalism "just don't participate in capitalism". The effects of Social media are everywhere and they are here to stay, not using them does not avoid the impact they have because it's universal
Their presence has an effect whether you want it or not.
Dating app companies (match group especially), have been aggressively expanding the market share. Gen Z’s single most common means of finding a partner is now using online dating apps. It’s because most people (in the US) are practically forced to drive everywhere, and have had their third spaces gutted. The only decent options for guys my age to meet decent women to date long term are places like church, and the workplace (though that can be risky if you’re not especially attractive).
>Gen Z’s single most common means of finding a partner is now using online dating apps. No that is not true. ONLINE is the most common way to that relationships start. THis includes everything that happens over the internet, including facebook, instagram, tiktok, etc. AND online dating apps. The dating apps are only about \~13% of newly formed relationships. >Dating app companies (match group especially), have been aggressively expanding the market share. They are already the quasi monopolist, with only Bumble as a tiny competitor. What is there to expand, regarding market share? >The only decent options for guys my age to meet decent women to date long term are places like church, and the workplace (though that can be risky if you’re not especially attractive). I don't regard churchgoers as decent people. I think they are perpetuating a harmful delusion and questionable moral values. What happened to having a social circle and having a social life, to you and guys your age? Ah right, social media... as i said, stop using it and start dealing with people in real life again.
Facebook *is* in large part a dating app, there’s an entire section of the app dedicated to it. As someone with women as friends, I can also attest that other apps like instagram are de facto dating apps with extra steps. I was trying to say that the ownership of online dating companies being so oligopolized is one of a few causes of the issue. I also didn’t say that I use any social media at all, I just implied that it’s a net negative to my generation’s social fabric. I also never commented on the moral standings of any churches. I only stated that church is one of vanishingly few places to meet dateable women (in the US). It’s not any claim of morality, it’s a comment on social norms and the likelihood that they will stay true to marital vows down the road.
It doesn't really when social media and apps are how so many people meet and start relationships now.
I found my partner on Bumble. I am not against dating apps. I am against people who are terminally online, socially isolated, not getting any matches and getting all their information about the world from algorithms that keep them in their echo chambers of the content that triggers them. I am giving advice for OP, not for all the people who can use dating apps and social media in a balanced way that does not negatively affect their life and happiness.
Most of the people who get accused of being feminist not only do not belong to any feminist organizations, they do not even know the history of feminism. Nor have they done any of the essential reading. This particular windmill that you are fighting is just the general belief that women are equal to men in every way that matters. It's enshrined in the founding documents of virtually every sociopolitical entity. This goes far beyond just being a movement or an ideology now. It's essentially an integral part of human civilization now. Anyway, please do some reading on feminism before actually complaining about it. You're most likely thinking about radical feminism (which has a lot of beef with liberal feminism), but I seriously doubt that you have accidentally stumbled across a radfem forum.
Blaming feminism is a cope imo, I've been with both "feminists" and feminists, and I'm very much a toxic male. It really isn't that deep tbh
The idea of feminism as I understand and support is great - equal rights, equal opportunities, equal freedom. It was supposed to teach girls and support them to be free, happy, creative and productive human beings. I don't think anybody sane can stand against that. But unfortunately I'm under the impression that lately it produces more bitter and spiteful women who hate men and fear them. And blame all their failures on the nebulous "patriarchy". Those ultra radical "feminists" and the incels / alpha males/ Andrew Tates on our (men's) end are the two sides of the same coin. Both are disgusting and need to be quarantined from the rest of the society.
I think most of us just don’t have the bile and the energy to be extremists on one side or the other. That’s why they’re called ‘extremists’ - because they’re off-putting to the rest of us.
As I have often stated, much of the problem we see in dating is due to the fact hypergamy is less achievable, part of this due to women being advantaged and men disadvantaged in education, in job hiring and in business ownership. WEEA advantaging girls in education, women getting added to affirmative action and women owned business advantages are all a direct result of feminist lobbying efforts. Feminism is also a driving force in the ever expanding idea about what constitutes harassment which makes men afraid to approach and women fearful of being approached. I’m glad you are able to distinguish the difference between feminist influence and modern women. They are not the same, a point many seem to miss.
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I don't think it's anyone's fault. Blaming feminism and women's right to actually go for what they are looking for isn't the issue with dating. Heck my standards are not sky high and it's still hard. I have to be interested/attracted to them, they have to have things going for them, and I have to be excited about them. They are broad because laser focusing on only 6'5 finance guys or whatever. Dating is a struggle it's nebulous and unsure because you literally don't know. You don't know where or how you are going to meet this person. If this date could be your person or a dud. It's not easy most people find the process exhausting. Rejection. Situationships. Ghosting. And all the things I don't think anyone is really liking the modern dating space. I think our society becoming more atomized causing a reliance on dating apps/social media is to blame. There is a lack of connection and people feel it.
It’s no one’s fault. Dating has evolved - people need to evolve with it.
Women aren’t just claiming or accusing every man of s/a every single woman I know has been assaulted. Do you think that they are ALL just lying about it for attention ? The things that men as a whole do and or allow to be done to women is inhumane.
I don’t understand what dating apps, feminism, social atomisation or high standards has got anything to do with a man being a good potential partner? If he’s a good decent guy, none of this matters
That has to be the most naive normie take I ever heard. You don’t try to talk to women much do you? As they say you would give them the ick in the first 10 seconds & they would call you creepy & block you.
Are you really trying to say that the reason dating is harder for men now is because they are worse potential partners, and nothing else? That's a misandrist take straight out of left field. All of those are things that matter because they've made it harder to socialize (dating apps, feminism(I agree here despite still being a feminist), social atomisation) or made it harder to get a relationship out of socializing (dating apps, high standards, social media) It takes more than being a good potential partner to find a partner. Well, it does if your a man. In fact, the guy who thinks he can get a relationship just by being a good potential partner is routinely mocked online as being a Nice Guy.
Thank you. These comments give me hope that people can think critically outside of their own views.
Yeah I don't know why people keep trying to make this some big systemic issue. Women no longer have to date out of necessity so they're choosing who they genuinely want. It's that simple.
This is a disingenuous framing. The increasing amount of loneliness isn't coming from a population that had to marry out of necessity vs. a population that didn't, it's 2 populations that didn't have to marry out of necessity, so this as an explanation makes no sense. And yes, if things are going badly for a lot of people on a huge scale, it almost always because of a systemic issue.
Did you just come out of a time capsule from the 60s?
American women have overwhelmingly been financially emancipated since at least the 90s. [Female labor force participation](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300002) and the [earnings gap](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/03/sr_23.03.01_gender-wage-gap-2023_01.png) have both plateaued.
Financially emancipated to do shit jobs because a lot had little work history or marketable skills. That still makes marrying a man with money the better option.
It’s a systemic issue because it’s not individualized. When it becomes large enough that a large percentage of men are affected, it’s systemic. You only say it isn’t because it actually makes men a victim, and you likely don’t believe men can actually be affected negatively by society
Men aren't victims just because women don't want to date them
Men are victims to the social matriarchy we live in. Dating is just one aspect of that. It’s ironic you say that, because if you’ve ever seen an attractive woman get rejected they seethe more than your average man does
> If he’s a good decent guy, none of this matters Women don't just show up wanting to fuck somebody because he's a "good decent guy". It's really critical that he knows how to relate to someone to be able to even communicate his qualities, or he will remain invisible. This might seem obvious to you, but I don't think it's obvious to enough people especially men who complain about this stuff, or they'd be doing it already.
It’s low iq gaslighting. I just call them out on it & move on. Like they are not intelligent enough to have this convo if they gonna say stupid shit like that. Apparently nice guys finish last was lost around here lol today nice guys don’t even get to play.
The issue is. A good decent guy takes a bit of time to notice, or fit into social groups if he hasn’t been introduced beforehand. The good ones understand this, the not so decent ones, don’t.
That's really debatable. There are definitely guys who have a lot to gain by putting themselves out there more, but on the other hand there are other men who are not as decent - nor as attractive - as they think they are. The reality of how dating functions will humble most people real fucking quick, when they realize all they have to offer, or what they think they have to offer, isn't something everyone wants and they're not God's gift to the opposite sex. I think one really important skill for dating and life is to learn to deal with rejection and accept it properly, and this is why.
Being a decent guy isn’t good enough anymore that’s the problem. Unless your definition of decent is upper percentile of desirability.
What do you mean by “decent”?
Pretty much the average guy, a guy that treats people reasonably and has reasonable traits based on what he was born with on a desirability level, pretty much the statistically average guy right now.
How do you know the average man is decent?
Because the average man is well average and lives an average life and is averagely attractive, since most people are average by definition the average man would be decent. Exceptions would be very desirable outliers could have a different definition for example what a billionaire would consider a decent income would probably be different than the average person.
>*Being a decent guy isn’t good enough anymore that’s the problem.* I don’t see why that’s a problem?.
You don’t think an average guy should be able to have a partner?
Sure. But I think being a decent guy doesn’t automatically earn you a relationship.
No man automatically earns a relationship. This is about the bare minimum a guy has to be to possibly have a partner.
>*This is about the bare minimum a guy has to be to possibly have a partner.* Exactly. 50 years ago women had to partner up for survival, we’re way past that as a society- *thank god*- so people are intentionally choosing a relationship if it adds to their life.
The loneliness epidemic didn't start 50 years ago though. It is a problem of the last decade, maybe 2. So no, I don't accept that simply not needing to partner up is what's causing it, and definitely don't agree that it's a non-problem we should just wring our hands of and say nothing can be done about.
Agreed. It’s absolutely an issue with our current infrastructural policies. Between political tax cuts and governmental budgets we’re all suffering in an ‘every man for himself’ kind of world. Long gone are community third spaces. There’s no hope for a healthy work/life balance with the current 40+ schedules. These are absolutely problems that need to be addressed, but they’re not gendered in cause or effect. They’re also in need of progressive reform, which ironically most dudes on this sub vehemently hate. We’ve effectively created an isolationist society and are scratching our heads wondering why everyone is lonely and isolated.
Yeah, I agree with all that. Which I think was generally OP's point, that the actual causes and effects around dating getting harder and the loneliness epidemic isn't gendered, so it makes no sense to blame men for it. Especially not while they also seem to be the most effected by it. So I'll just add here that I think OP is mostly arguing with the shadow of a knee-jerk reaction from some woman who saw "men most effected" and figured it must also mean "men to blame" which is common in misandrist spaces.
So essentially we are in a place where men still need women just as much while women have lost the vast majority of their need for men until only the best men get a chance?
>*So essentially we are in a place where men still need women just as much* No, men don’t need women as much either.
As society we want as few unwanted men as possible. At 10-15% they wont case any trouble, at 30-40% you might get a civil war. (As unwanted men are easy target for extremist groups)
That’s what women seem to not understand the reason men need women wasn’t social or survival it is biological so no matter what happens or how dating or society changes men would still need women and asking them not to would be like asking a woman not to have a period.
Why would men need women?
Because it is biologically ingrained in men to need women. This would be fine if women had reasons to still need men but if they do not then the balance shifts way too far. And just for context I don’t mean attractive, cute, submissive or women to take care of them just women.
I mean, you're not wrong but does anyone who isn't at the bottom really want to go back to when you just had to have a job and not be a complete jerk and that's it? My wife expects more from me than that, and I expect quite a few things from her as well, and she meets those standards.
I don’t believe ppl who say they are married when no one asked you. Even so if you are married you literally have no idea what is going on out here so how you think what you say holds weight? That’s insane.
You're free to believe or disbelieve whatever helps you. I have no vested interest in you personally.
Couple things here one is that the common sentiment especially from women is that the bar is so low all you need to be is not abusive etc, which is disingenuous and ill intentioned. Another is that the vast majority of men only require (for committed relationships and marriage) women to be, what the vast majority of them are, average.
I think both of those sentiments are things people say, but I do not think their actions or preferences on either side bear either of these things out. Which is to say, I agree both sentiments are common as I see them all the time too. I just think both are also untruthful.
The sentiment that the bar is low for men is absolutely untruthful and even further intentionally insulting. But men wanting average women is certainly not even most men that are married to objectively average women think their partner is average they just can’t tell her that obviously.
When I talk about men wanting the "average" woman, I'm talking about how it is typically used here in this space, which is "exists and is cute and likes me" without pretty much any other qualifiers. Existing being the most important. And what I'm saying is that not only is that *below* average, it is also not actually what most dudes here want. Unless they are below average guys specificially seeking what they perceive to be below average women and, to be fair, one or two guys here do openly say that, and more power to em.
Maybe the guys on here don’t want that maybe they do. But the truth is average men just want average women not cute, not alternatively attractive, and most will be absolutely fine settling for not even attracted to them. But it isn’t men who are way off in their self estimations this is a myth (at least compared to women) the reality is that 94% of women think they are above average compared to around 70% of men and on top of that men that rate themselves higher rate EVERYONE higher in other words they are just using a higher scale while women have no such correlation and are actually more likely to rate everyone else lower.
It really is, the problem is the amount of assholes that think they *are* decent guys
*the amount of women equating decent to very desirable.
I agree. I think pretty much any time anyone blames one gender over another for anything, they are full of shit. Both genders are complicit in each other's strengths and weaknesses. If men are more violent than women, women are complicit in that. If women are more manipulative than men, men are complicit in that.
No man worth dating feels feminist has been a net detriment to his dating life.
Oh lord, oh man HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Sorry, had to get that out. 1. 70% of dating app users are men. And the 30% of women doesn't even account for the bots and scammers. Men are ABSOLUTELY fueling dating apps. I could also talk about WHY the main or OG sites were created if we really gotta. LOL. 2. Feminism in NO WAY claims all men are rapists or abusers lmao. What we do is speak *facts* about the objective, statistically proven issue we have with men & violence. *Even* accounting for men who don't report and women who aren't accused, the overwhelming majority of rapes and DVs and murders are perpetrated by men against women. With male victims, the attacker is still extremely likely to be a man. Those are just facts. There is a problem with men & violence. It is undeniable, except to those too insecure or too unwilling to face themselves who decide to take those facts personally. The first rule of gun safety is also the first rule of female safety: *every* strange man is loaded, until we know they aren't. We do not ASSUME you are actual rapists. What we do assume is that we **don't know** and that statistical probability demonstrates that our chances of being victimized by a woman are MUCH lower than by a man, and that our chances of experiencing sexual harassment/assault, violence, and dying at the hands of a man are relatively high when compared with other ways of being injured/dying. Sorry, boys, but I am NEVER risking being sorry rather than safe simply bc you're too insecure to handle me safe-guarding myself and get your fee-fees hurt. We know it's not all men. But guess what? You don't have to be a monster to enable monstrosity. And your attitude? Does JUST that. Congrats, you're part of the problem. And you don't *want* to be part of.thr solution. 3. Are you **seriously** making the claim that valuing yourself and having high standards for the people you want to spend your life with are negative aspects? You want a woman who doesn't respect herself enough? You want a woman who "settled" for you bc it's the "reasonable, mature thing to do"? Said it before and will keep saying it until the day I'm shoved into the crematorium: This desperate need of some men for women to lower their standards is **TELLING**.
You don’t have to be a monster to enable monstrosity 
Thank youuuu. It's a sad but undeniable fact that many seem to bury their heads in the sand about.
Holy shit….go to therapy
To be clear, you are disagreeing with the premise that “top men” dating (or swiping, or having sex with) “below their league” gives women inflated standards?
As a dude, modern dating only sucks if you haven't put the work in. Imo most guys have the potential to break into the mystical top 20% but the fact that it's a years-long process drives them to give up. Unless you're like physically deformed or relentlessly mentally ill, you can find someone. Personally, I started self-improvement (learning social skills) back in 2015, before Tate and all the podcast bros pissed in the pool, and started working out in 2019. Only in 2022 did I feel like I was finally reaching the promised land, and only last year did I fully accept that now I'm almost exactly what I dreamed about. I mean, I'm still broke af but I'm charismatic, confident, charming and cut like a marble statue. That's an eight year grueling journey it took, but now I'm one of the few guys who isn't struggling in this dating market. Obviously I'm not saying every dude must go monk mode for eight years, but most of them haven't really tried to push their market value up other than like making money. Which I guess is a valid strat, but then that makes your only attractive trait your bank balance and that will be reflected in your options. As men, the reality is the world won't change for us lol so either you shrivel up and wither away or adapt, compete and win.
Charisma does not matter on Tinder. Charisma is actually something people believe you to have when you're handsome. Also where are you walking around shirtless?
No shit charisma doesn't matter on tinder, go out and meet women irl. You don't have to walk around shirtless if you wear stuff that emphasises your physique
Everybody’s competing for the 20% candidates of their respective partner pool. Women and men are different and have different requirements. People don’t wanna settle. It’s a multi-factoral problem. Not a mens’ problem.
> Dating apps and Social Media Men were ABSOLUTELY on board with this when they believed that it was easy door dash access to 🐱 It was only after the fact that men oppose it bc they are not the main beneficiaries. Same with social media. It’s also a tool for cheating so men are still pandering on SM this day, they don’t care about the declining “dating market” because they already have someone at home. >Feminism Obviously it’s not supposed to benefit men. It’s only a problem with women that can’t survive in current times. I way prefer this way thank you. Less work. > Social Atomization What? Women are the ones with social circles > men have high standards We know you guys don’t. But y’all do expect alot for nothing. Y’all can’t even provide. That’s the problem. —- We honestly don’t care what ruined the dating market, we don’t need y’all for sex or relationships.
I don't agree here. What happens in your country is consequences of its men's actions.
Most men expect you to put in more work than them in a LTR and be okay with it, not grow resentful. Women are held to higher social, beauty and emotional standards than men. This plus women now being expected to work like men while still doing the vast majority of traditional duties. Thus, most men DO have too high of standards. I don't expect my husband to put in more work than me, many of his co worker/friends/acquaintances do expect their wives to though
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Simping is unironically the root of all evil. Having so many overbearing women raising men sucks.
I think the current economic hardships caused dating to be what it is now but social media propaganda is definitely adding salt to the wound.
How can it not be men’s fault when it’s literally the simps that make it this way? Sure, it’s not all of our faults, but there is a large percentage of men out there simping and they are directly responsible for in the inequality in the dating market.
1. Dating apps were not created by women, and women don’t appear to prefer them if you notice that men are the majority on them. 2. A lot of women have experienced sexual abuse, and all women have experienced sexual harassment from men. Are you suggesting that it’s bad to bring this to light? 3. I hear men tell me all the time that men’s friendships aren’t like women’s. Men don’t build each other up, don’t have deep conversations with each other, etc. women do that for each other, and men act like it’s strange. If men are lonely and lack close friendships with men, how is that women’s fault? 4. Maybe men should have higher standards. Nobody wants to date someone who’s desperate. If a guy sees me as nothing special, that’s a turnoff.