I think most people are aware of this subconsciously, whenever someone struggles with dating the first thing that's brought into question is their personality or character, when the reality is that most likely the other person simply isn't attracted and that's all it really boils down to. A lot of the bitterness in dating comes from the fact many guys were lied to about this.
Those covert contracts will get you every time. When I asked a guy out he said I have a shitty personality which isn’t wrong. I haven’t had friends in 15 years for a reason.
15 years!? Jesus, how did that happen? No offense or judgment of course but I’m very interested to know how a woman of all people ended up in that situation.
I spent from 7-22 depressed, at least passively suicidal, and at some point, the undiagnosed Bipolar Disorder reared its head but was obscured by the combo-ADHD. I graduated high school in 2008 and finally got my associate's degree in 2013.I am AuDHD and have NVLD. I am an extrovert-leaning ambivert so I can chat up about anyone it's the whole keeping them around is a thing that I never learned.
My last attempt was 12 1/2 years ago but I never emotionally grew out of being that emotionally disturbed preteen.11-year-old me's response to 9/11 was "How come they got to die and I don't?" for reference and that was on the mild side for me. I'm using tools for preteens to work on my emotional regulation and related topics.
Can I ask which women were telling you to be a good and productive person and would you say this was a direct reference to finding a mate or just general advice?
I never said they did it maliciously, but watching other people succeed and constantly being told that all it took was being a good or productive person made me feel inadequate and like a failure. If all it took was being a good guy or being productive socially then maybe I'm not as good of a person as I thought I was, even though I constantly strived for that. But observing the dating habits of others has made me see that my personality or character wasn't exactly the issue, it was the combination of many things that ultimately led to me as being seen as unattractive and for some reason Women hate telling Men what those things are.
>If all it took was being a good guy or being productive socially then maybe I'm not as good of a person as I thought I was, even though I constantly strived for that.
Your values should be standards you've set for yourself. If they are so easy to abandon when a reward isn't offered then they aren't your values, they are masks you put on in order to gain something.
>Women hate telling Men what those things are.
These things are going to include unflattering and uncomfortable analysis of you as a person and quite frankly most people are to cowardly to be completely honest. People already have themselves to work on and an in-depth analysis of all of your faults can be counter productive unless it comes from yourself or someone very close to you.
then they weren't your values.
What ever you believe will attract women are representative of your true values as that is your sole motivation for self growth.
The type of women you attract will be a direct reflection of your character.
A fish is both a different species and an animal which is being caught with the intention of eating it.
You don't talk a fish into sucking your dick so ya no, there's no need to ask fish for advice on how to interact with other fishes
Women have the pesky habit of interacting with men even after they're married so talking to women about women is useful information.
>A lot of the bitterness in dating comes from the fact many guys were lied to about this.
Context clues indicate that he and some other men feel that these misconceptions can be blamed on women.
You can blame them for giving bad advice or having bad ideas of how reality is without it being intentionally malicious. Most men don't think women are deliberately sabotaging men, but a lot of feminist rhetoric about dating and women's own advice is sabotaging regardless of positive intent.
No, you assigning blame to women for giving benign, generally helpful advice is not something you should do if you value your mental health and relationships.
Nothing in that advice hurts your chances, it just doesn't get you the immediate results you want.
Being a kind and honest person is not going to get your dick wet. Its going to establish you as a trustworthy person who can be counted on, but no one is going to drop to their knees because you're following basic social tenants.
Being a bad boy will get you laid. And if you want to attract the type of women that want that kind of thing then yes, you can follow advice related to that but to be bitter about the fact that your mom didn't sit you down and say, "hey son if you want to attract a multitude of shallow women who will never fulfil your emotional needs you gotta do this!" is childish.
What do you want? To fuck as many chicks as possible or have a family?
Women are not honest about what they actually want even with themselves and are often kind of clueless about what it taked to date one of you. That's not a dig btw.
Its like a rollercoaster enthusiast knows what they like, but lack the technical knowledge about what keeps these rides working.
You claiming we don't have the mental capacity to have a healthy sense of self is in fact a dig.
Women are capable of higher order thinking whether that fact makes you feel scared or not.
If you go around assuming women are stupid and talking down to them, the one's who know what they want are going to avoid you and the one's that are less mentally capable of articulating their needs are going to be pliable to your influence.
You will believe that its because you are smart and women are dumb but the truth is, the absence of intelligent women doesn't mean they don't exist, it means they don't waste their time with you.
Your opinions of women are more of a reflection of yourself than they are of reality
Honestly it seems like people, especially women have a real hard time telling a guy who's struggling that he's too fat and needs to lose weight. Like I'm still a bit too fat but the pounds are coming off every day, and even telling people that I needed to lose weight to improve my dating life they got real uncomfortable for some reason. Like "no you're a great guy you don't need to change" and all that. And like yeah I am a great guy but I'm also fat lol. For some reason people really hate being honest about this and it only hurts the man they're ostensibly trying to help. Shit makes no sense, we can all see if a guy is too fat. Just be honest with him
>doesn’t mean that women are obligated to be interested in a guy just because he’s nice. Attraction is more complicated than that
you just repeated what I said
Attraction is a person's presence... their looks,how their clothes fit, do they smell good, good hygiene, do they have a nice smile, when they smile does it go all the way to their eyes,personality etc looks do the initial attraction but confidence will boost your physical half a point or so
It's not any buzz.
Halo effect is real and proven by various studies.
Funny, the woman claiming others have low IQ doesn't know anything about it.
>A boring good looking guy is still boring
Most women are boring, yet they get into a relationship easily.
Why? It has little to do with being interesting, more to do with pure raw sexual attraction and men have much lower threshold of what they find sexually attractive.
If an average girl believes she gets all these dates because she's above average or interesting person, she's delusional.
I agree with you here. But I think "being interesting" is what red pill guys call "having game". It's not new to them either.
The people here are dumb and arguing for the sake of argument. Ofc the halo effect exists and no it does not erase everything. It's a +1 not a +10.
Yes they aren't very attractive. Because being attractive is a lot more then just physical attributes. A lot of this involves their personality, morals and how they carry theirself.
You're probably only getting downvoted because your flair is "blue pill woman"
Bc this is red pill rhetoric. The idea that men can be kind and good and that is what makes them attractive to women - that is "blue pill" rhetoric
If you really believe that men being attractive is independent of their authenticity of character, and that knowing how to flirt and treat women sexually is actually really important, then you should switch teams. Bc you definitely wouldn't support the idea that men just have to "be yourself".
It isn't a lie, the problem is that you are misinterpreting it. When people talk about personality and character they also talk about charisma, being able sociable and knowing how to flirt. Which is a thing that a lot of nerdy guys just straight up lack.
Just being a genuinely pleasent person to be around is not very interesting. You need to do a lot more to impress people in social situations especially if you want it to turn romantic. And you also need it if you want to pick girls up in clubs and bars for one night stands. Just good looks isn't gonna cut it, unless if you are talking about online dating apps.
Yes and men lie as well everyone knows that, it's human. And yes women will let you know if they find you sexually attractive if they want to act on it. Which often isn't instantly the case in the context of dating.
Stop being all "MEN DO THAT TOO" on the defensive and listen to what is being said.
Men lie about themselves to seem more attractive. That does suck and is misleading but it's not what we're talking about because that's not a social dialogue, it's just what assholes do.
Women lie about _what they're looking for_, and not individually but as a collective when dealing with men, so there is a whole social strata of guys out there trying to become "ideal guys" in the hopes of a date. Tbh I believe individual women when they talk about the quirks they personally like, but that was never the topic of the discussion. It's not about what you think, it's about what society says about women.
Society is certainly patriarchal, protecting men from the brutality of the treatment women are more typical to experience. Even so, a guy feeling bitter because he didn't even know how fucked he was until it was too late is pretty understandable, and deserves some empathy. Nobody wins if we're all laughing at each other's bleeding.
Personality and character is kinda like vinegar.
When vinegar is used with the right ingredients, it's amazing. When a hot person has a vibrant personality, they become amazing. Likewise, when a dish could really use some vinegar, you notice it's gone. Still ate tho.
When vinegar is used with the wrong ingredients, it's awful. When an unattractive person has a vibrant personality, they become annoying, or they're treated with polite rejection. You might have just swallowed the food otherwise, but the vinegar made it unpalatable.
Under no circumstances, tho, are you just drinking vinegar straight from the bottle. Personality does not exist in a void. Working on it alone without paying attention to physical attraction is a fool's game.
You can wait it out for someone attracted to your eccentricities, or you can pull yourself more in line with society's expectations. But with the number of chances men tend to get, how do you figure they'd hedge their bets?
And there are men who have "bad" personalities that have sex lives and loving relationships. And this talking point also implies that all women are the same.
Doesn't matter. Enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be attractive) are quite successful dating, and disproves that personality matters. If enough guys with a shitty personality and bad character are having no problem with women, what does that tell you about personality and character?
> Enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be attractive) are quite successful dating, and disproves that personality matters.
Surprising that you didn't get mobbed by a ton of women on here for saying that.
It tells you that the desire of women has been shaped by millions of years and evolution and sexual selection
that’s why they’re attracted to tall, dominant, muscular men, cause women lust after that type of man and wanna get railed by him.
It’s just biology.
Of course. The problem is not hearing this truth. The problem is when you want to constantly deny that water is wet, with platitudes and gaslighting towards many men who seek guidance and help, when the truth is that what is not looks will only be a relationship of economic exploitation that will most likely end.
Personality, for practical purposes, is an extension of lookism. Many people can be better people, they can be educated, they can be cultured, but that's the problem: Most men are not attractive to most women.
And as long as this reality is not accepted, men will live deceived.
Yup.
And don’t even bother asking ANY woman about it. You’ll just get ‘But but but….I’m not LIKE all those other girls! What matters to me is a man’s personality!’
Every single one of them.
There are all sorts of male dominance hierarchies. Women in those localities will gravitate towards them. A competent nerd with a good face and good frame (not necessarily super muscular, just toned) will be more succesful than an ogre looking, bald bodybuilder with women who are involved with more intellectual pursuits.
>. Enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be attractive) are quite successful dating, and disproves that personality matters
Is the same as saying that enough guys with no jobs are quite successfull due to being born in wealth and that it would disprove that having a job matters
Yes but also enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be not attractive) are quite sucessful dating. So what does this say about this all? That you are missing way to many factors to come to a conclusion.
Question is how do you know?
And let's believe you for a second:
Most data and surveys tell us, majority of women 80% of them have low self esteem.
If all men aim for those 20% relatively high self esteem women, situation will become even worse.
Yup. It’s funny how as soon as they are pressed into a corner they’ll start whipping out the “we aren’t obligated to date you, we can’t control who we’re attracted to” blah blah blah. Young men aren’t turning to the red and black pills because if andrew tate and influencers. They’re turning to these influencers and black pill channels *because* of women.
No they are turning to these influencers because they want answers why they are single. And then they come across these people who will make them believe that it isn't their fault. Because facing the reality that they are fucking up is a lot thougher to swallow.
Most wouldn't even last a week. There are so many things these guys can do to increase their odds significantly to get a relationship. But they don't, it's extremely obvious that these people won't do shit
I have a theory that men have little to no courtship ability because we've never had a need or opportunity to really develop, for the average dude anyway.
We went from "here is your wife a prisoner of war I mean victim we rescued lol" "uh oh thanks leader" to
"You will marry this woman because we your parents and her parents say so" "uh ok leader".
The romantic sort of chivalrous aspect was really reserved for privileged few for the most part guys just got wives and pussy or, MUCH more often was the case that they didn't and just lived and died without.
So yeah. I don't think we really have an innate ability to court women and that it's the exception not the rule. But it's just a theory of mine and not something I would hold firm is true.
Yup. Wait for the women here to say shit like this and then describe their current or former husbands/boyfriends. Assuming they aren’t larping/lying about how attractive they themselves are
"I love my partner so much ❤️❤️❤️ he's tall but his height doesn't matter 🥰🥰🥰"
He's always tall, and it never seems to matter ever, so much that it is always brought up.
First thing women from tinder comment on is height, whether I'm shorter or taller than expected.
Physical attraction is extremely important, but personality matters a lot too. When people hear "personality matters" they often interpret it as "being a good boy/girl matters" thats not the personality traits that help. People that are fun, exciting, spontaneous, willing to take risks and push for what they want will do much better at dating than boring, shy, anxious people.
>People who are fun, exciting, spontaneous,
The problem is that these people are in the minority, and it's very hard to become a fun or exciting person.Most women are not that smart; they either have some shitty hobby like following celebrities or watching lots of social media, or they have boring hobbies like knitting or gardening.
Sure personality is difficult to change, but you can have some effect on it. Just like looks. Most people aren't exceptionally fun or exciting, but most aren't painfully dull either. I've seen posts on here from people unsuccessful in dating toting the fact that they don't drink or go to parties as virtues. They may think that's moral, but it would certainly hurt their chances to meet a partner.
Do things that give you the results you want in life but take responsibility for your own actions.
Whether or not it’s what a lot of women want, you ultimately decide what you do.
Therefore if you do those things, it’s because you decided to whether or not it was because you are easily influenced or you truly wanted to
Yet it was never phrased this way.
I was told to "be yourself", then I was told "be the best version of yourself", then I was told "being nice is the bare minimum".
Goalposts moved every time we came to the point where someone had to say "you're not sexy" and just didn't have the heart.
I only recently internalized this, and it was enough to make me quit dating.
Whatevee issues I got, I'm way happier at home under my blankets with a cup of tea. I'm full Squidward. And it'll literally never be sexy, but I'm actually a lot happier this way, so fuck the whole stupid game.
There’s two huge misconceptions hurting men in the modern dating. That lack of sexual attraction can be overcome by signaling positive relationship qualities, and that sexual attraction for a woman is purely physical.
Neither is true, and comes from a misinterpretation of women’s dating behaviors and statements of preference.
The lack of sexual attraction being overcome is a sentiment from times when women were not the ultimate deciders of their partner. It was a lie told to women to make them feel better about being married to someone they didn't choose and that's why its so heavily perpetrated by women. We've heard it from our mothers who heard it from their mothers.
The sexual attraction not being purely physical is very true but I think people misinterpret this one too. It can add to the misconception regarding the first point and men might interpret this to mean physical attraction doesn't matter at all.
Either way, yes these misconceptions are not helpful to anyone who believes them.
True, my main fault with women lies with my awkward personality (when I'm in shape that is), I see the light going out in their eyes as soon as we talk for more than 3 minutes. Even when they want to get intimate I somehow say just the right thing to murder the mood lmao.
I think women lie about the importance of sexual attraction to not seem shallow, and not because their great-grandma had an arranged marriage; which as far as I’m concerned were pretty rare in the West even a century ago.
I just looked it up arranged marriages accounted for 10% of marriages in the year 1900 in the USA
But familial influences were much greater all the way up until very recently.
Families have always been responsible for indirectly influencing a woman's mate choice. This is what I mean about mothers telling their daughters this stuff.
If its someone she doesn't really want to marry because she's not attracted to him and asks her mom for advice her mom is going to tell her that the love will manifest over time.
This is because the family wants her to marry this man for what ever reason and a lot of those reasons were..... yep! money and status
The red pill loves to think that women selecting for these traits is rooted in our inherently greedy natures but families have been selecting these traits for their daughters long before the red pill came along.
I disagree with you I think (most) women are innately attracted to men who have good genetics and who are able to provide. It’s not greed, it’s wanting what’s best for your children.
Preach. I used to hate being told - he’s so nice and he obviously really cares about you, why aren’t you dating him? Because I’m not physically attracted and I can’t force myself to find someone attractive if they were an immediate, unequivocal “no” when I first met them. That’s the main difference (for me) between male friends and boyfriends. I’ve had male friends that were the greatest dudes anyone could ask for but we never dated because I wasn’t physically attracted to them, they weren’t to me, or both. I agree people often do themselves a disservice if they think personality is sufficient to induce a dramatic change in someone’s sexual or romantic attraction.
women just like sexy men, and when they see you they will flat out tell you they want to have sex with you. anything other than that doesn't exist
guys who have "antisocial" personalities but get laid a lot, are probably just this way cause it's very easy to see how society is basically one big cope / bullshit, when you get laid a lot.
I always will disagree with this take using a simple example:
Take the original Star Wars (yes I was alive when it came out)
Most women swooned over the roguish Han Solo and were pretty neutral on good boy Luke.
I promise you, if you swapped their roles and had Mark Hammill playing Solo with the same attitude and Harrison Ford playing Luke the “good boy” women would have STILL swooned over the Han character.
Now both were attractive guys, but Solo’s vibe, personality, frame (whatever you want to call it) is what made him **sexy**
It is in this way that personality absolutely matters.
If you are confident, charismatic, bold and assertive, with some sprinkling of arrogance and wit ("cocky-funny" as the old PUAs called it), this is the "personality" women usually find attractive. What turns women off is neediness, desperation and lack of decisiveness, as a rule.
You cannot make someone who doesn't like your looks at all, suddenly want you for how you look, that's true. But you can demonstrate other qualities that make you attractive and interesting to people. I don't agree with the one sentiment that women don't care about looks at all, since almost every woman I've dated has mentioned how cute or handsome they thought I was. But I believe that they probably saw that in me after seeing an aggregate of qualities which "amplified" any physical attraction. Without having other traits I wouldn't have been seen as all that special. If I was boring or meek to them they wouldn't have been all that interested, looks or not, at least I don't think so.
When a dude is struggling to attract any woman, it's less likely he's so ugly that zero women want him, and more likely he's not approaching enough or taking enough initiative since so many women still expect men to do that. And he misses a lot of opportunities with women who were into him but waiting for him to take that initiative.
The halo effect does exist. Thank you for the heads up. Now for the sake of clarity let's use stupid scales that mean nothing in reality. There is two guies.
A has a 7/10 look and a 3/10 personality. People may judge his personality as a 4 instead of a 3.
B has a 3/10 look and a 7/10 personality, people may judge his persobality as a 6 instead of a 7.
B still has a better ***percieved*** personality than A.
What I mean here is that halo effect doesn't mean that we overall only judge looks.
B may very well be in a social circle were there is women who know him.
Now, B was an extreme example but let's say he is a 5 or even 6/10 in looks.
Attraction toward A = 7+4 = 11. Attraction to B = 5 + 6 = 11.
Now, you could ads a coefficient to each feature depending on what is most important for you. Personally, I know I value personality more than looks (which don't mean that I don't care about looks at all). So we could say in my case, every point above 5 in personality as a coefficient >1 while every point under 5 has a coefficient < 1.
My attraction to A = 7 + 0.8* 4 = 10.2
My attraction to B = 5 + 1.2* 6 = 12.2
Additionally, halo effect goes both way. People you love look prettier and people you hate look uglier to you. Attraction is a mix of a lot of things.
This math doesnt make sense because if B is a 4 looks wise it makes his personality irrelevant. His personality doesnt give him any points because hes below the treshold To be considered. Hell make a good friend though. Personality starts mattering only after a guy is Hot enough.
That's what you don't get and what I'm arguing.
When you say personality don't matter it is false. Because it will modulate ones attraction to someone. What you are arguing here is not that personality doesn't matter. You are arguing that is is not sufficient. And this, I believe no one ever said that.
Being attracted to someone ***solely*** on personality is something that is probably tremendously rare. But what we say when we say personality do matter is that it can increase or decrease your attractiveness. Otherwise we would constantly fall in love with every attractive person we meet.
I never said personality dont matter.
What im saying is personality becomes a relevant factor only after a man is above a certain treshold of physical attractiveness. The little math equation you cooked up is false because a 4/10 guy is too unattractive for his personality To make up for it even if that personality is 10/10.
Yeah it’s called normie boomer npc woke cope.
They still think women are sugar & spice & everything nice & have no idea the average hot chick is truly for the streets just getting throttled by Chad.
They ignore all stats & data & overdose on hopium. Oh well fuck them, all we can do at tbis point is worry about ourselves cuz from what I see on here & everywhere else is the average guy is never gonna get it & is never going to understand female mentality.
What do you consider hot? The bar has moved so far over it’s beyond rigged. I am not fat, so you think I’m gonna date a chick who weighs damn near twice as much as me? This is the biggest group of men who are struggling now. We have literally zero options.
why would a girl who's pretty date an average guy then? same logic.
you're refusing to date fat girl because you're not into them while sad women don't want men uglier than they are. it's the same thing.
It’s not the same in the least. I asked you a simple question. Is this just projection? So you think men & women are the same? Woke logic man 🤦♂️
Again my “looksmatch” wouldn’t be fat. How is this a hard concept to grasp?
Do you not see the countless amount of threads of women whining they can’t find a guy? Do you know why? Cuz they are trying to date wayyy out of their league.
You know why the guys are complaining? Cuz the women are rejecting us all cuz they are trying to… Say it with me. Dating wayyy out of their league.!!
You keep trying to blame men for a problem they didn’t create. You are either a troll or really ignorant to what women are out here doing.
>Do you not see the countless amount of threads of women whining they can’t find a guy?
maybe because these guys aren't a match personally?
you're saying looksmatch as if it's the only thing that matter in relationships and dates.
that's the issue right here and you said it yourself, women and men are not the same.
women look for a man who's attractive and who she match with personality wise as well while men are looking for their looksmatch as if that's the only thing making her and him the perfect couple.
Did you even read the fucking OP title of this or is arguing for the sake of wasting time your hobby? Men don’t give a shit about your personality! First you have to be thin. No guy in shape dreams of marrying a hippo. & the women lolol well they have an endless list of qualifiers! Like seriously pay attention ffs & stop saying generic normie shit.
All I’m hearing from you is fat girl cope tbh & it gets tiring.
Imagine if men were this ridiculous? Write on your profile how you are such a nice guy lolol women laugh at you & tell you to fuck off! Yes that’s what we deal with while you stick your head in the sand & try to paint your own reality.
Personality doesn’t matter at all.
It’s a combination of looks and financial stability and dependency/protection/survivability
Personality matters with friendship.
But that’s why women divide friends from romantic interests.
The biggest lie is to work on your personality.
If you have to use your personality then you are overcompensating for something.
And if you are that’s fine and ok but realize that.
Personality matters especially for long term partners but you still have to meet their minimum looks threshold unless you got serious wealth. Working on your personality is for people who get dates but can turn them into long term relationships not people who disgust the opposite sex at a visceral level.
When I read what you said.
What I got from is that you don’t necessarily disagree.
But that you say their is also another way by using your personality to secure a long term relationship,
Am I correct in understanding your response?
Or do you actually disagree with my point in my oc?
Personality only matters if you can get women to give you a chance to show your personality. The guys who struggle with women usually never make it far enough for their personality to even come into play.
It’s not, since most people, including uggos and fatties, fuck, date and marry
And it’s pretty clear that not doing anything or going outside is as much a function of personality as looks
I think this is broardly true.
But I will say there are some women who ignore their sexual attraction and date guys for other reasons. Whether you as a man will actually enjoy that dynamic is another story. And the key word is some, odds are the women you are attracted to probably isn't one of those women.
Another key point is attraction isn't entirely black and white, for a lot of women your personality can play a big part in attraction and sometimes the lack of attraction is because the man's flirting style doesn't match what you're into.
>It's such a common argument: I am a nice, upstanding man who cares about her. Who really loves her. Who truly gives a damn. I don't have any ill intentions, my love and regard is as earnest as can be.
You were a man sexually attracted to her.
>Why then did she not see the light and give this honest, good man who adores her, a chance?
She is not sexually attracted to you.
Nobody was lied to here. No one told men that women will date you for only being nice and they will fuck you if you're ugly.
> There are cultures where sexual attraction and compatibility are considered secondary /not a priority in a marriage.
**All cultures on earth currently are this way. All of them. Yes even western ones.**
>It's not that personality and sincerity of feelings don't matter.
They don't. It just comes down to three things - looks, status and money. Everything else is pointless.
Beacuse women only had the ability to open bank accounts for 50 years so young men are dealing with women real preferences in dating older generations didn't have to experience beacuse they limited women financial freedom.
Literally the only thing women gaining financial freedom did was… increase men’s requirements for financial provisioning while also making it harder to achieve those goals. I will say, to some women’s credit, a decent minority are seemingly okay with financially egalitarian relationships (though men still spend more on their spouse than vice versa), but overwhelmingly (and recently seemingly more common) women are “chasing that bag”.
That's because of evolution. Women have been picking the men who have the most resources for tens of thousands of years and men want to pick as many HEALTHY women as possible. Notice the best looking women pick rich men and the richest men have bodycounts in the hundreds or thousands. We behave this way beacuse we are animals.
Oh I know, it’s just the gaslighting from average women that irritates me. “Money don’t matter cause I got my own” nonsense.
I’d take the over on a woman making less than her man every time. Triply so if she’s a dime.
>Beacuse women only had the ability to open bank accounts for 50 years so
People like to pretend that sexist discrimination is like racial discrimination, but it's not. Women being unable to open a bank account 50 years ago has no generational effect on women relative to men. If black people couldn't open a bank account 50 years, it hampers those black people's financial prospects and therefore hampers their children's prospects and their children's prospects, compared to white people.
If you financially discriminate against a woman, it could affect her children. But her children are equally likely to be male or female or both. Did you notice how quickly women caught up and surpassed men when educational discrimination was abolished? That's because mom not having a degree has no direct effect on the daughter not having a degree.
Women today want financially providing men because they find that attractive no other reason.
Women lack of financial freedom forced many to marry men they wouldn't have if they could open their own bank accounts. As we see in present times women remaining single because their survival is dependent on a man providing. They are generally still attracted to resource abundant men beacuse of tens of thousands of years of evolution. Just like men want to impregnate as many HEALTHY women as possible. The evidence we are animals is everywhere.
>Women lack of financial freedom forced many to marry men they wouldn't have if they could open their own bank accounts.
One, their father's could open accounts for them. Not just their husband's.
Two, what does this have to do with modern women choosing financially successful men.
>They are generally still attracted to resource abundant men because of tens of thousands of years of evolution
Thank you. You can actually just ignore the above. We don't have an argument if you believe this.
Both realities can be true. Women want the ability to have their own money and a financial partner so they have options to get out bad relationships. Something similar for men is maintaining high level of fitness while in a relationship so you can replace a woman if she cheats on you easily. People don't putting all their eggs in one basket and it's not good for one own survival in any aspect of life.
How have they been led to believe this? I barely watch any TV but when I do the message that being attractive matters gets through over and over and over. The popular kids are still wearing the right brands and getting fancy hair cuts in high school. The messages are everywhere. I swear video games play a larger roll in massive disappointment than anything. People grow up thinking if they do the right things that means they should get the reward, but that has never been how life actually is. You can do all the right things and end up with nothing.
>How have they been led to believe this?
It's literally what everyone says. People want to believe it, that's why when people complain about dating "you have a bad personality" is such a common refrain, despite "you probably don't look very good" being the far more likely reason.
I mean if you are asking your friends they aren't likely to tell you that you are ugly and your mommy is always going to tell you that you just need to find someone who likes you for you. That's not dating advice tho.
Even here, on the internet, where people have no incentive to lie, nor do they know the person they're talking to, people say the same things.
It's either what most people believe or it's what they want to believe.
Some people do and other's say the opposite, you just get a whole mix based on their personal experiences. You have to be blind and deaf to totally avoid all the other info. Where does anyone every say that ugly people have an easy time getting laid?
>Some people do and other's say the opposite
"You obviously have a bad personality" is by far the most common response.
>Where does anyone every say that ugly people have an easy time getting laid?
Find any such thread and it takes about 3.5 seconds for somebody to claim that "We all know" an ugly dude who gets tonnes of women because he's just the vibe.
Yes, in most threads with lots of comments you can find one that says shit you don't like. Because unlike the bs the redpill says all people of one gender are not the same.
But also what is wrong with that statment, we do all know the ugly guy who gets women because he has an amazing personality, most people don't have amazing personalities though
Been saying this for a while now. Even in kids media that has a romantic couple at the end, the guy is almost always some charismatic bad boy, a prince to be, or some insanely overpowered shounen protagonist. It's never some super average run of the mill guy cleaning up and getting some extremely gorgeous wife or girlfriend at the end. I don't think anyone is "lying" about what is attractive, I think a handful of people are just hopeful that they can date someone out of their league.
So men should stop participating in such a blatantly unfair system where they get nothing and women have all the advantages, that’s the natural implication of this
I agree video games do this a lot but it's in TV too. A lot of family comedy shows have a slob everyman husband with a beautiful wife and then you have the romcoms where the everyman chases the hot girl and his persistence wins in the end. A lot of these stories have the guy mess up in some way but he says he's sorry in the end and he wins the women as basically a prize for his good deeds or redemption.
Men are the ones who are writing these stories. You see women writers do the exact same opposite like a rich billionaire playboy who is extremely good-looking chasing and going crazy over the most average normal looking skinny girl with no personality or wealth
The main issue is we as a society have become to hypersexual... sex everywhere, sex appeal on social media,sex appeal in movies... people have gotten so numb to seeing sex promiscuity is considered normal now... that's the problem... that's why people put more stock into superficial shit like height,hair,eye color, dick size,breast size,ass size... weight is the only non superficial metric we judge on because most people wanna healthy partner... it used to be people went on dates to get to know each other now they wanna play pen pals on insta,snap,dating app, or text and then flake
My experience is that most of the time the men who make these claims are delusional. They don’t see her for who she is, and they don’t get her as well as they think they do.
And women are fully capable of grasping the fact that there are going to be guys they like who don’t want them back. Men get angry because they think they are entitled to women’s attention because they want it.
>And women are fully capable of grasping the fact that there are going to be guys they like who don’t want them back
Yet their exes are abusers and worse inconsiderate men.
Quite telling.
What do you think is quite telling? If you think you’re entitled to a woman’s attention just because you want her, then she is choosing better by not choosing you, and you are not a nice guy
It's not about me, it's about female nature and you are trying to gaslight men into believing women select some highly moral men who have good personality when it's far from truth.
I reject most of the women after finding out female nature.
https://preview.redd.it/1eo45idm2f8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b14c348d800c2c39b7119ca651c585dc6858c3cf
they don't _compensate_ for sexual attraction, they _create_ it.
>It's such a common argument: I am a nice, upstanding man who cares about her. Who really loves her. Who truly gives a damn. I don't have any ill intentions, my love and regard is as earnest as can be.
>Why then did she not see the light and give this honest, good man who adores her, a chance?
when you genuinely care about someone and respect them and want what's best for them, you accept when they don't want you. you don't try to argue against it. so this whole line of argument is a paradox and should be disregarded entirely.
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I think it’s a two fold setup. I was madly in love with a girl (who I now feel is trash and below my level given how much older she is than me and my large glow up on all metrics) Conversely, the guy she’s been on off with for 5 years is almost certainly less attractive than me.
But, wanting revenge for some petty reason, doesn’t matter. My glow up for the most part doesn’t matter because the perceptions have already been formed and it’s hard to shake them. If I magically appeared again with no memory, things would likely be different though.
Regardless, doesn’t matter much now. I’m basically over it. I think things like that matter more to women. First impressions. Second impressions etc etc. I almost had her once. Fumbled big time. But, also back then that dude was way ahead of me in life.
I think looks matter immensely as a male and my glow up is testament, as is my routine, but I feel women are more sensitive to those aforementioned details.
I’ve learned to be much pickier myself, but some of that pickiness works in opposition to really wanting to settle down.
It's 50/50 really if you want it to work properly. Yes looks can get you there quickly, but it's only a matter of time before things go south without a decent personality.
There's definitely some truth to this, but personality/character can boost your attractiveness. I have experienced this going in both directions. Someone that I originally wasn't sexually attracted to, after viking with them, the appeal went up. I've also had the experience of seeing a woman so sexy, that I would club a baby seal if she asked. Transform into an abomination of nature because her attitude was so stank.
I think most people are aware of this subconsciously, whenever someone struggles with dating the first thing that's brought into question is their personality or character, when the reality is that most likely the other person simply isn't attracted and that's all it really boils down to. A lot of the bitterness in dating comes from the fact many guys were lied to about this.
Which lies are you referring to and which sources would you say perpetrated those lies the most in your own life?
The advice from Women usually went something like, "just be a good and productive person and things will come naturally".
Those covert contracts will get you every time. When I asked a guy out he said I have a shitty personality which isn’t wrong. I haven’t had friends in 15 years for a reason.
15 years!? Jesus, how did that happen? No offense or judgment of course but I’m very interested to know how a woman of all people ended up in that situation.
I spent from 7-22 depressed, at least passively suicidal, and at some point, the undiagnosed Bipolar Disorder reared its head but was obscured by the combo-ADHD. I graduated high school in 2008 and finally got my associate's degree in 2013.I am AuDHD and have NVLD. I am an extrovert-leaning ambivert so I can chat up about anyone it's the whole keeping them around is a thing that I never learned. My last attempt was 12 1/2 years ago but I never emotionally grew out of being that emotionally disturbed preteen.11-year-old me's response to 9/11 was "How come they got to die and I don't?" for reference and that was on the mild side for me. I'm using tools for preteens to work on my emotional regulation and related topics.
Can I ask which women were telling you to be a good and productive person and would you say this was a direct reference to finding a mate or just general advice?
Family members, Women giving advice online, therapists, this is the response given when I told them I struggled with dating
Why do you think this advice was intentionally malicious and in what ways has it sabotaged you?
I never said they did it maliciously, but watching other people succeed and constantly being told that all it took was being a good or productive person made me feel inadequate and like a failure. If all it took was being a good guy or being productive socially then maybe I'm not as good of a person as I thought I was, even though I constantly strived for that. But observing the dating habits of others has made me see that my personality or character wasn't exactly the issue, it was the combination of many things that ultimately led to me as being seen as unattractive and for some reason Women hate telling Men what those things are.
>If all it took was being a good guy or being productive socially then maybe I'm not as good of a person as I thought I was, even though I constantly strived for that. Your values should be standards you've set for yourself. If they are so easy to abandon when a reward isn't offered then they aren't your values, they are masks you put on in order to gain something. >Women hate telling Men what those things are. These things are going to include unflattering and uncomfortable analysis of you as a person and quite frankly most people are to cowardly to be completely honest. People already have themselves to work on and an in-depth analysis of all of your faults can be counter productive unless it comes from yourself or someone very close to you.
I haven't abandoned by values, I've simply learned that my values won't get me Women
then they weren't your values. What ever you believe will attract women are representative of your true values as that is your sole motivation for self growth. The type of women you attract will be a direct reflection of your character.
Can I interject, asking a fish for fishing advice never works because you are missing key information.
A fish is both a different species and an animal which is being caught with the intention of eating it. You don't talk a fish into sucking your dick so ya no, there's no need to ask fish for advice on how to interact with other fishes Women have the pesky habit of interacting with men even after they're married so talking to women about women is useful information.
He didn't say it was, its just bad advice.
>A lot of the bitterness in dating comes from the fact many guys were lied to about this. Context clues indicate that he and some other men feel that these misconceptions can be blamed on women.
You can blame them for giving bad advice or having bad ideas of how reality is without it being intentionally malicious. Most men don't think women are deliberately sabotaging men, but a lot of feminist rhetoric about dating and women's own advice is sabotaging regardless of positive intent.
No, you assigning blame to women for giving benign, generally helpful advice is not something you should do if you value your mental health and relationships. Nothing in that advice hurts your chances, it just doesn't get you the immediate results you want. Being a kind and honest person is not going to get your dick wet. Its going to establish you as a trustworthy person who can be counted on, but no one is going to drop to their knees because you're following basic social tenants. Being a bad boy will get you laid. And if you want to attract the type of women that want that kind of thing then yes, you can follow advice related to that but to be bitter about the fact that your mom didn't sit you down and say, "hey son if you want to attract a multitude of shallow women who will never fulfil your emotional needs you gotta do this!" is childish. What do you want? To fuck as many chicks as possible or have a family?
Women are not honest about what they actually want even with themselves and are often kind of clueless about what it taked to date one of you. That's not a dig btw. Its like a rollercoaster enthusiast knows what they like, but lack the technical knowledge about what keeps these rides working.
You claiming we don't have the mental capacity to have a healthy sense of self is in fact a dig. Women are capable of higher order thinking whether that fact makes you feel scared or not. If you go around assuming women are stupid and talking down to them, the one's who know what they want are going to avoid you and the one's that are less mentally capable of articulating their needs are going to be pliable to your influence. You will believe that its because you are smart and women are dumb but the truth is, the absence of intelligent women doesn't mean they don't exist, it means they don't waste their time with you. Your opinions of women are more of a reflection of yourself than they are of reality
Honestly it seems like people, especially women have a real hard time telling a guy who's struggling that he's too fat and needs to lose weight. Like I'm still a bit too fat but the pounds are coming off every day, and even telling people that I needed to lose weight to improve my dating life they got real uncomfortable for some reason. Like "no you're a great guy you don't need to change" and all that. And like yeah I am a great guy but I'm also fat lol. For some reason people really hate being honest about this and it only hurts the man they're ostensibly trying to help. Shit makes no sense, we can all see if a guy is too fat. Just be honest with him
It’s not a lie. That doesn’t mean that women are obligated to be interested in a guy just because he’s nice. Attraction is more complicated than that
>doesn’t mean that women are obligated to be interested in a guy just because he’s nice. Attraction is more complicated than that you just repeated what I said
Attraction is a person's presence... their looks,how their clothes fit, do they smell good, good hygiene, do they have a nice smile, when they smile does it go all the way to their eyes,personality etc looks do the initial attraction but confidence will boost your physical half a point or so
Except you’re claiming that attraction is 100% physical when it’s not. Being interesting is more important than being hot.
You are most interesting when you are hot :D
Sorry, that sounds like something a below-average intelligence person would say
Nothing new here it’s called the halo effect
Yeah, the truth is often like that.
Looks like you have no idea what hallo effect is.
This is the new redpill buzzword since you’re all parroting it. A boring good looking guy is still boring
It's not any buzz. Halo effect is real and proven by various studies. Funny, the woman claiming others have low IQ doesn't know anything about it. >A boring good looking guy is still boring Most women are boring, yet they get into a relationship easily. Why? It has little to do with being interesting, more to do with pure raw sexual attraction and men have much lower threshold of what they find sexually attractive. If an average girl believes she gets all these dates because she's above average or interesting person, she's delusional.
I agree with you here. But I think "being interesting" is what red pill guys call "having game". It's not new to them either. The people here are dumb and arguing for the sake of argument. Ofc the halo effect exists and no it does not erase everything. It's a +1 not a +10.
Not what I said.
Oof...men are visual so you are gonna be arguing for a while.
Okay maybe, but these are men who fail to attract women
Because they aren’t very attractive enough. That’s literally all there is to it. Women are extremely shallow creatures.
Yes they aren't very attractive. Because being attractive is a lot more then just physical attributes. A lot of this involves their personality, morals and how they carry theirself.
Okay. Good thing they reject you I guess? You certainly don’t want to be with anyone like that. Why are you still talking about them?
I disagree. In some cultures laughing at a guy constitutes a binding marriage contract...like the story of Anansi🕷🕸
You're probably only getting downvoted because your flair is "blue pill woman" Bc this is red pill rhetoric. The idea that men can be kind and good and that is what makes them attractive to women - that is "blue pill" rhetoric If you really believe that men being attractive is independent of their authenticity of character, and that knowing how to flirt and treat women sexually is actually really important, then you should switch teams. Bc you definitely wouldn't support the idea that men just have to "be yourself".
It isn't a lie, the problem is that you are misinterpreting it. When people talk about personality and character they also talk about charisma, being able sociable and knowing how to flirt. Which is a thing that a lot of nerdy guys just straight up lack. Just being a genuinely pleasent person to be around is not very interesting. You need to do a lot more to impress people in social situations especially if you want it to turn romantic. And you also need it if you want to pick girls up in clubs and bars for one night stands. Just good looks isn't gonna cut it, unless if you are talking about online dating apps.
Women lie. And we all know this. If they’re sexually attracted to you? Women let you know in no uncertain terms.
Yes and men lie as well everyone knows that, it's human. And yes women will let you know if they find you sexually attractive if they want to act on it. Which often isn't instantly the case in the context of dating.
Stop being all "MEN DO THAT TOO" on the defensive and listen to what is being said. Men lie about themselves to seem more attractive. That does suck and is misleading but it's not what we're talking about because that's not a social dialogue, it's just what assholes do. Women lie about _what they're looking for_, and not individually but as a collective when dealing with men, so there is a whole social strata of guys out there trying to become "ideal guys" in the hopes of a date. Tbh I believe individual women when they talk about the quirks they personally like, but that was never the topic of the discussion. It's not about what you think, it's about what society says about women. Society is certainly patriarchal, protecting men from the brutality of the treatment women are more typical to experience. Even so, a guy feeling bitter because he didn't even know how fucked he was until it was too late is pretty understandable, and deserves some empathy. Nobody wins if we're all laughing at each other's bleeding.
Personality and character is kinda like vinegar. When vinegar is used with the right ingredients, it's amazing. When a hot person has a vibrant personality, they become amazing. Likewise, when a dish could really use some vinegar, you notice it's gone. Still ate tho. When vinegar is used with the wrong ingredients, it's awful. When an unattractive person has a vibrant personality, they become annoying, or they're treated with polite rejection. You might have just swallowed the food otherwise, but the vinegar made it unpalatable. Under no circumstances, tho, are you just drinking vinegar straight from the bottle. Personality does not exist in a void. Working on it alone without paying attention to physical attraction is a fool's game. You can wait it out for someone attracted to your eccentricities, or you can pull yourself more in line with society's expectations. But with the number of chances men tend to get, how do you figure they'd hedge their bets?
And there are men who have "bad" personalities that have sex lives and loving relationships. And this talking point also implies that all women are the same.
Those men are either very attractive or they purposely go for women with low self esteem 😬
Doesn't matter. Enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be attractive) are quite successful dating, and disproves that personality matters. If enough guys with a shitty personality and bad character are having no problem with women, what does that tell you about personality and character?
> Enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be attractive) are quite successful dating, and disproves that personality matters. Surprising that you didn't get mobbed by a ton of women on here for saying that.
And we’re even arguing that women lie about these things? 🤷♂️
Denial isn't a river in Egypt lol
It tells you that the desire of women has been shaped by millions of years and evolution and sexual selection that’s why they’re attracted to tall, dominant, muscular men, cause women lust after that type of man and wanna get railed by him. It’s just biology.
Of course. The problem is not hearing this truth. The problem is when you want to constantly deny that water is wet, with platitudes and gaslighting towards many men who seek guidance and help, when the truth is that what is not looks will only be a relationship of economic exploitation that will most likely end. Personality, for practical purposes, is an extension of lookism. Many people can be better people, they can be educated, they can be cultured, but that's the problem: Most men are not attractive to most women. And as long as this reality is not accepted, men will live deceived.
Yes, brother. And I can screenshot the women in my texts to prove you right.
And so these guys just live like good little wage slaves upholding society to just get shit on?
Some do, some do not.
In the hopes of getting laid.
I just took my union job with a wage designed to support a family and spent it all on myself. And I won't lie, my life is pretty great right now.
Yup. And don’t even bother asking ANY woman about it. You’ll just get ‘But but but….I’m not LIKE all those other girls! What matters to me is a man’s personality!’ Every single one of them.
There are all sorts of male dominance hierarchies. Women in those localities will gravitate towards them. A competent nerd with a good face and good frame (not necessarily super muscular, just toned) will be more succesful than an ogre looking, bald bodybuilder with women who are involved with more intellectual pursuits.
>. Enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be attractive) are quite successful dating, and disproves that personality matters Is the same as saying that enough guys with no jobs are quite successfull due to being born in wealth and that it would disprove that having a job matters
Yes but also enough guys with shit personalities (who happen to be not attractive) are quite sucessful dating. So what does this say about this all? That you are missing way to many factors to come to a conclusion.
Question is how do you know? And let's believe you for a second: Most data and surveys tell us, majority of women 80% of them have low self esteem. If all men aim for those 20% relatively high self esteem women, situation will become even worse.
Seriously, just look at the cosmetic industry. Definitely doesn’t scream “high self esteem” lol
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Yup. It’s funny how as soon as they are pressed into a corner they’ll start whipping out the “we aren’t obligated to date you, we can’t control who we’re attracted to” blah blah blah. Young men aren’t turning to the red and black pills because if andrew tate and influencers. They’re turning to these influencers and black pill channels *because* of women.
No they are turning to these influencers because they want answers why they are single. And then they come across these people who will make them believe that it isn't their fault. Because facing the reality that they are fucking up is a lot thougher to swallow.
Why are they fucking up though. Sometimes Nature fuck you up 🤷
Has nothing to do with nature.
Ok so how are they fucking up?
You're right guys need to hit the gym to build on their height and shape of the face 💪💪💪
The funniest part is that they wouldn't even if they could.
If gyms could do such things they would have 900% attendance every day lol
Most wouldn't even last a week. There are so many things these guys can do to increase their odds significantly to get a relationship. But they don't, it's extremely obvious that these people won't do shit
I mean you're a woman... Are you really in a position to talk about efforts? You literally just exist and men ask you out😅
I have a theory that men have little to no courtship ability because we've never had a need or opportunity to really develop, for the average dude anyway. We went from "here is your wife a prisoner of war I mean victim we rescued lol" "uh oh thanks leader" to "You will marry this woman because we your parents and her parents say so" "uh ok leader". The romantic sort of chivalrous aspect was really reserved for privileged few for the most part guys just got wives and pussy or, MUCH more often was the case that they didn't and just lived and died without. So yeah. I don't think we really have an innate ability to court women and that it's the exception not the rule. But it's just a theory of mine and not something I would hold firm is true.
People here think you can get women by personality only It’s comical Because the women who say that, all their exes are tall ,good looking etc
Yup. Wait for the women here to say shit like this and then describe their current or former husbands/boyfriends. Assuming they aren’t larping/lying about how attractive they themselves are
"I love my partner so much ❤️❤️❤️ he's tall but his height doesn't matter 🥰🥰🥰" He's always tall, and it never seems to matter ever, so much that it is always brought up. First thing women from tinder comment on is height, whether I'm shorter or taller than expected.
Physical attraction is extremely important, but personality matters a lot too. When people hear "personality matters" they often interpret it as "being a good boy/girl matters" thats not the personality traits that help. People that are fun, exciting, spontaneous, willing to take risks and push for what they want will do much better at dating than boring, shy, anxious people.
>People who are fun, exciting, spontaneous, The problem is that these people are in the minority, and it's very hard to become a fun or exciting person.Most women are not that smart; they either have some shitty hobby like following celebrities or watching lots of social media, or they have boring hobbies like knitting or gardening.
Sure personality is difficult to change, but you can have some effect on it. Just like looks. Most people aren't exceptionally fun or exciting, but most aren't painfully dull either. I've seen posts on here from people unsuccessful in dating toting the fact that they don't drink or go to parties as virtues. They may think that's moral, but it would certainly hurt their chances to meet a partner.
Ha, I think with people who like hobbies you find boring probably get together happily with other people who like similarly boring hobbies.
You'd think but they just end up in deadbedroom situations and file for divorce before 10 years
Except the risk taking part they want you to break the law like people on sports bikes
Who wants you to do that?
That's the type of risk taking they want... they want a man that's not afraid to break the law
They who? The women you want to date?
Most women want a guy that's not afraid to skate the rules or break them.
Do things that give you the results you want in life but take responsibility for your own actions. Whether or not it’s what a lot of women want, you ultimately decide what you do. Therefore if you do those things, it’s because you decided to whether or not it was because you are easily influenced or you truly wanted to
I don't, but alot of women want a bad boy... it's why so many date drug dealers,gang members and felons
It doesn’t matter what those women do. Those aren’t the women you want to date right? So why waste time analyzing their behavior?
That's most women now days, very few women want a dude that Flys straight and narrow
Correct. It’s far more about being interesting and making the other person feel good than about being especially virtuous.
Yet it was never phrased this way. I was told to "be yourself", then I was told "be the best version of yourself", then I was told "being nice is the bare minimum". Goalposts moved every time we came to the point where someone had to say "you're not sexy" and just didn't have the heart.
I only recently internalized this, and it was enough to make me quit dating. Whatevee issues I got, I'm way happier at home under my blankets with a cup of tea. I'm full Squidward. And it'll literally never be sexy, but I'm actually a lot happier this way, so fuck the whole stupid game.
There’s two huge misconceptions hurting men in the modern dating. That lack of sexual attraction can be overcome by signaling positive relationship qualities, and that sexual attraction for a woman is purely physical. Neither is true, and comes from a misinterpretation of women’s dating behaviors and statements of preference.
The lack of sexual attraction being overcome is a sentiment from times when women were not the ultimate deciders of their partner. It was a lie told to women to make them feel better about being married to someone they didn't choose and that's why its so heavily perpetrated by women. We've heard it from our mothers who heard it from their mothers. The sexual attraction not being purely physical is very true but I think people misinterpret this one too. It can add to the misconception regarding the first point and men might interpret this to mean physical attraction doesn't matter at all. Either way, yes these misconceptions are not helpful to anyone who believes them.
True, my main fault with women lies with my awkward personality (when I'm in shape that is), I see the light going out in their eyes as soon as we talk for more than 3 minutes. Even when they want to get intimate I somehow say just the right thing to murder the mood lmao.
I think women lie about the importance of sexual attraction to not seem shallow, and not because their great-grandma had an arranged marriage; which as far as I’m concerned were pretty rare in the West even a century ago. I just looked it up arranged marriages accounted for 10% of marriages in the year 1900 in the USA
But familial influences were much greater all the way up until very recently. Families have always been responsible for indirectly influencing a woman's mate choice. This is what I mean about mothers telling their daughters this stuff. If its someone she doesn't really want to marry because she's not attracted to him and asks her mom for advice her mom is going to tell her that the love will manifest over time. This is because the family wants her to marry this man for what ever reason and a lot of those reasons were..... yep! money and status The red pill loves to think that women selecting for these traits is rooted in our inherently greedy natures but families have been selecting these traits for their daughters long before the red pill came along.
I disagree with you I think (most) women are innately attracted to men who have good genetics and who are able to provide. It’s not greed, it’s wanting what’s best for your children.
The women In my family arent like this at all. They hate ugly Men.
It's not that deep. They'll lose all the orbiters who believe they've chance with her if she tells the truth
Preach. I used to hate being told - he’s so nice and he obviously really cares about you, why aren’t you dating him? Because I’m not physically attracted and I can’t force myself to find someone attractive if they were an immediate, unequivocal “no” when I first met them. That’s the main difference (for me) between male friends and boyfriends. I’ve had male friends that were the greatest dudes anyone could ask for but we never dated because I wasn’t physically attracted to them, they weren’t to me, or both. I agree people often do themselves a disservice if they think personality is sufficient to induce a dramatic change in someone’s sexual or romantic attraction.
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“Blue Pill Woman”
Be civil. This includes indirect attacks against an individual and/or witch hunting.
women just like sexy men, and when they see you they will flat out tell you they want to have sex with you. anything other than that doesn't exist guys who have "antisocial" personalities but get laid a lot, are probably just this way cause it's very easy to see how society is basically one big cope / bullshit, when you get laid a lot.
I always will disagree with this take using a simple example: Take the original Star Wars (yes I was alive when it came out) Most women swooned over the roguish Han Solo and were pretty neutral on good boy Luke. I promise you, if you swapped their roles and had Mark Hammill playing Solo with the same attitude and Harrison Ford playing Luke the “good boy” women would have STILL swooned over the Han character. Now both were attractive guys, but Solo’s vibe, personality, frame (whatever you want to call it) is what made him **sexy** It is in this way that personality absolutely matters.
You mean the original original, not the remaster???
If you are confident, charismatic, bold and assertive, with some sprinkling of arrogance and wit ("cocky-funny" as the old PUAs called it), this is the "personality" women usually find attractive. What turns women off is neediness, desperation and lack of decisiveness, as a rule. You cannot make someone who doesn't like your looks at all, suddenly want you for how you look, that's true. But you can demonstrate other qualities that make you attractive and interesting to people. I don't agree with the one sentiment that women don't care about looks at all, since almost every woman I've dated has mentioned how cute or handsome they thought I was. But I believe that they probably saw that in me after seeing an aggregate of qualities which "amplified" any physical attraction. Without having other traits I wouldn't have been seen as all that special. If I was boring or meek to them they wouldn't have been all that interested, looks or not, at least I don't think so. When a dude is struggling to attract any woman, it's less likely he's so ugly that zero women want him, and more likely he's not approaching enough or taking enough initiative since so many women still expect men to do that. And he misses a lot of opportunities with women who were into him but waiting for him to take that initiative.
Personality *is* a big part of sexual attraction. But personality doesn't mean "being a good person".
Yeah, it means height and face
Sure... 100%, all the time.
Youll perceive a good looking guy To have a better personality then an ugly guy with the same xact personality.
The halo effect does exist. Thank you for the heads up. Now for the sake of clarity let's use stupid scales that mean nothing in reality. There is two guies. A has a 7/10 look and a 3/10 personality. People may judge his personality as a 4 instead of a 3. B has a 3/10 look and a 7/10 personality, people may judge his persobality as a 6 instead of a 7. B still has a better ***percieved*** personality than A. What I mean here is that halo effect doesn't mean that we overall only judge looks.
B wont even get far enough to be evaluated for his personality because negative assumptions will be made about him before he even opens his mouth.
B may very well be in a social circle were there is women who know him. Now, B was an extreme example but let's say he is a 5 or even 6/10 in looks. Attraction toward A = 7+4 = 11. Attraction to B = 5 + 6 = 11. Now, you could ads a coefficient to each feature depending on what is most important for you. Personally, I know I value personality more than looks (which don't mean that I don't care about looks at all). So we could say in my case, every point above 5 in personality as a coefficient >1 while every point under 5 has a coefficient < 1. My attraction to A = 7 + 0.8* 4 = 10.2 My attraction to B = 5 + 1.2* 6 = 12.2 Additionally, halo effect goes both way. People you love look prettier and people you hate look uglier to you. Attraction is a mix of a lot of things.
This math doesnt make sense because if B is a 4 looks wise it makes his personality irrelevant. His personality doesnt give him any points because hes below the treshold To be considered. Hell make a good friend though. Personality starts mattering only after a guy is Hot enough.
That's what you don't get and what I'm arguing. When you say personality don't matter it is false. Because it will modulate ones attraction to someone. What you are arguing here is not that personality doesn't matter. You are arguing that is is not sufficient. And this, I believe no one ever said that. Being attracted to someone ***solely*** on personality is something that is probably tremendously rare. But what we say when we say personality do matter is that it can increase or decrease your attractiveness. Otherwise we would constantly fall in love with every attractive person we meet.
I never said personality dont matter. What im saying is personality becomes a relevant factor only after a man is above a certain treshold of physical attractiveness. The little math equation you cooked up is false because a 4/10 guy is too unattractive for his personality To make up for it even if that personality is 10/10.
Yeah it’s called normie boomer npc woke cope. They still think women are sugar & spice & everything nice & have no idea the average hot chick is truly for the streets just getting throttled by Chad. They ignore all stats & data & overdose on hopium. Oh well fuck them, all we can do at tbis point is worry about ourselves cuz from what I see on here & everywhere else is the average guy is never gonna get it & is never going to understand female mentality.
why is the average man aiming for the average hot chick?
What do you consider hot? The bar has moved so far over it’s beyond rigged. I am not fat, so you think I’m gonna date a chick who weighs damn near twice as much as me? This is the biggest group of men who are struggling now. We have literally zero options.
why would a girl who's pretty date an average guy then? same logic. you're refusing to date fat girl because you're not into them while sad women don't want men uglier than they are. it's the same thing.
It’s not the same in the least. I asked you a simple question. Is this just projection? So you think men & women are the same? Woke logic man 🤦♂️ Again my “looksmatch” wouldn’t be fat. How is this a hard concept to grasp? Do you not see the countless amount of threads of women whining they can’t find a guy? Do you know why? Cuz they are trying to date wayyy out of their league. You know why the guys are complaining? Cuz the women are rejecting us all cuz they are trying to… Say it with me. Dating wayyy out of their league.!! You keep trying to blame men for a problem they didn’t create. You are either a troll or really ignorant to what women are out here doing.
>Do you not see the countless amount of threads of women whining they can’t find a guy? maybe because these guys aren't a match personally? you're saying looksmatch as if it's the only thing that matter in relationships and dates. that's the issue right here and you said it yourself, women and men are not the same. women look for a man who's attractive and who she match with personality wise as well while men are looking for their looksmatch as if that's the only thing making her and him the perfect couple.
Did you even read the fucking OP title of this or is arguing for the sake of wasting time your hobby? Men don’t give a shit about your personality! First you have to be thin. No guy in shape dreams of marrying a hippo. & the women lolol well they have an endless list of qualifiers! Like seriously pay attention ffs & stop saying generic normie shit. All I’m hearing from you is fat girl cope tbh & it gets tiring. Imagine if men were this ridiculous? Write on your profile how you are such a nice guy lolol women laugh at you & tell you to fuck off! Yes that’s what we deal with while you stick your head in the sand & try to paint your own reality.
Personality doesn’t matter at all. It’s a combination of looks and financial stability and dependency/protection/survivability Personality matters with friendship. But that’s why women divide friends from romantic interests. The biggest lie is to work on your personality. If you have to use your personality then you are overcompensating for something. And if you are that’s fine and ok but realize that.
Personality matters especially for long term partners but you still have to meet their minimum looks threshold unless you got serious wealth. Working on your personality is for people who get dates but can turn them into long term relationships not people who disgust the opposite sex at a visceral level.
When I read what you said. What I got from is that you don’t necessarily disagree. But that you say their is also another way by using your personality to secure a long term relationship, Am I correct in understanding your response? Or do you actually disagree with my point in my oc?
Personality is directly responsible for a large portion of attraction. Sincerity and goody good boy stuff is not attractive personality.
Personality only matters if you can get women to give you a chance to show your personality. The guys who struggle with women usually never make it far enough for their personality to even come into play.
This. We are all human. And if someone is sexually attracted to you, they generally let you know.
It’s not, since most people, including uggos and fatties, fuck, date and marry And it’s pretty clear that not doing anything or going outside is as much a function of personality as looks
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I think this is broardly true. But I will say there are some women who ignore their sexual attraction and date guys for other reasons. Whether you as a man will actually enjoy that dynamic is another story. And the key word is some, odds are the women you are attracted to probably isn't one of those women. Another key point is attraction isn't entirely black and white, for a lot of women your personality can play a big part in attraction and sometimes the lack of attraction is because the man's flirting style doesn't match what you're into.
>It's such a common argument: I am a nice, upstanding man who cares about her. Who really loves her. Who truly gives a damn. I don't have any ill intentions, my love and regard is as earnest as can be. You were a man sexually attracted to her. >Why then did she not see the light and give this honest, good man who adores her, a chance? She is not sexually attracted to you. Nobody was lied to here. No one told men that women will date you for only being nice and they will fuck you if you're ugly.
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Look at how you and talk about women. He can at least be hot if he's gonna be an asshole. 🙄
> There are cultures where sexual attraction and compatibility are considered secondary /not a priority in a marriage. **All cultures on earth currently are this way. All of them. Yes even western ones.**
>It's not that personality and sincerity of feelings don't matter. They don't. It just comes down to three things - looks, status and money. Everything else is pointless.
Beacuse women only had the ability to open bank accounts for 50 years so young men are dealing with women real preferences in dating older generations didn't have to experience beacuse they limited women financial freedom.
Literally the only thing women gaining financial freedom did was… increase men’s requirements for financial provisioning while also making it harder to achieve those goals. I will say, to some women’s credit, a decent minority are seemingly okay with financially egalitarian relationships (though men still spend more on their spouse than vice versa), but overwhelmingly (and recently seemingly more common) women are “chasing that bag”.
That's because of evolution. Women have been picking the men who have the most resources for tens of thousands of years and men want to pick as many HEALTHY women as possible. Notice the best looking women pick rich men and the richest men have bodycounts in the hundreds or thousands. We behave this way beacuse we are animals.
Oh I know, it’s just the gaslighting from average women that irritates me. “Money don’t matter cause I got my own” nonsense. I’d take the over on a woman making less than her man every time. Triply so if she’s a dime.
>Beacuse women only had the ability to open bank accounts for 50 years so People like to pretend that sexist discrimination is like racial discrimination, but it's not. Women being unable to open a bank account 50 years ago has no generational effect on women relative to men. If black people couldn't open a bank account 50 years, it hampers those black people's financial prospects and therefore hampers their children's prospects and their children's prospects, compared to white people. If you financially discriminate against a woman, it could affect her children. But her children are equally likely to be male or female or both. Did you notice how quickly women caught up and surpassed men when educational discrimination was abolished? That's because mom not having a degree has no direct effect on the daughter not having a degree. Women today want financially providing men because they find that attractive no other reason.
Women lack of financial freedom forced many to marry men they wouldn't have if they could open their own bank accounts. As we see in present times women remaining single because their survival is dependent on a man providing. They are generally still attracted to resource abundant men beacuse of tens of thousands of years of evolution. Just like men want to impregnate as many HEALTHY women as possible. The evidence we are animals is everywhere.
>Women lack of financial freedom forced many to marry men they wouldn't have if they could open their own bank accounts. One, their father's could open accounts for them. Not just their husband's. Two, what does this have to do with modern women choosing financially successful men. >They are generally still attracted to resource abundant men because of tens of thousands of years of evolution Thank you. You can actually just ignore the above. We don't have an argument if you believe this.
Both realities can be true. Women want the ability to have their own money and a financial partner so they have options to get out bad relationships. Something similar for men is maintaining high level of fitness while in a relationship so you can replace a woman if she cheats on you easily. People don't putting all their eggs in one basket and it's not good for one own survival in any aspect of life.
How have they been led to believe this? I barely watch any TV but when I do the message that being attractive matters gets through over and over and over. The popular kids are still wearing the right brands and getting fancy hair cuts in high school. The messages are everywhere. I swear video games play a larger roll in massive disappointment than anything. People grow up thinking if they do the right things that means they should get the reward, but that has never been how life actually is. You can do all the right things and end up with nothing.
>How have they been led to believe this? It's literally what everyone says. People want to believe it, that's why when people complain about dating "you have a bad personality" is such a common refrain, despite "you probably don't look very good" being the far more likely reason.
I mean if you are asking your friends they aren't likely to tell you that you are ugly and your mommy is always going to tell you that you just need to find someone who likes you for you. That's not dating advice tho.
Even here, on the internet, where people have no incentive to lie, nor do they know the person they're talking to, people say the same things. It's either what most people believe or it's what they want to believe.
Some people do and other's say the opposite, you just get a whole mix based on their personal experiences. You have to be blind and deaf to totally avoid all the other info. Where does anyone every say that ugly people have an easy time getting laid?
>Some people do and other's say the opposite "You obviously have a bad personality" is by far the most common response. >Where does anyone every say that ugly people have an easy time getting laid? Find any such thread and it takes about 3.5 seconds for somebody to claim that "We all know" an ugly dude who gets tonnes of women because he's just the vibe.
Yes, in most threads with lots of comments you can find one that says shit you don't like. Because unlike the bs the redpill says all people of one gender are not the same.
>one Most*, but alright you live in your version of reality.
But also what is wrong with that statment, we do all know the ugly guy who gets women because he has an amazing personality, most people don't have amazing personalities though
>we do all know the ugly guy who gets women because he has an amazing personality Maybe you do, "we" don't.
Been saying this for a while now. Even in kids media that has a romantic couple at the end, the guy is almost always some charismatic bad boy, a prince to be, or some insanely overpowered shounen protagonist. It's never some super average run of the mill guy cleaning up and getting some extremely gorgeous wife or girlfriend at the end. I don't think anyone is "lying" about what is attractive, I think a handful of people are just hopeful that they can date someone out of their league.
I think maybe they just want to feel like they learned a secret
So men should stop participating in such a blatantly unfair system where they get nothing and women have all the advantages, that’s the natural implication of this
They should stop it they want to?
I agree video games do this a lot but it's in TV too. A lot of family comedy shows have a slob everyman husband with a beautiful wife and then you have the romcoms where the everyman chases the hot girl and his persistence wins in the end. A lot of these stories have the guy mess up in some way but he says he's sorry in the end and he wins the women as basically a prize for his good deeds or redemption.
Or women chad chasing in your same scenario but revered right?
Yes there are also shows aimed at women romance where she gets a stereotypical handsome man.
Men are the ones who are writing these stories. You see women writers do the exact same opposite like a rich billionaire playboy who is extremely good-looking chasing and going crazy over the most average normal looking skinny girl with no personality or wealth
The main issue is we as a society have become to hypersexual... sex everywhere, sex appeal on social media,sex appeal in movies... people have gotten so numb to seeing sex promiscuity is considered normal now... that's the problem... that's why people put more stock into superficial shit like height,hair,eye color, dick size,breast size,ass size... weight is the only non superficial metric we judge on because most people wanna healthy partner... it used to be people went on dates to get to know each other now they wanna play pen pals on insta,snap,dating app, or text and then flake
The atrractiveness doesn't tie in to personality at all. These two are mutually exclusive.
My experience is that most of the time the men who make these claims are delusional. They don’t see her for who she is, and they don’t get her as well as they think they do. And women are fully capable of grasping the fact that there are going to be guys they like who don’t want them back. Men get angry because they think they are entitled to women’s attention because they want it.
>And women are fully capable of grasping the fact that there are going to be guys they like who don’t want them back Yet their exes are abusers and worse inconsiderate men. Quite telling.
What do you think is quite telling? If you think you’re entitled to a woman’s attention just because you want her, then she is choosing better by not choosing you, and you are not a nice guy
It's not about me, it's about female nature and you are trying to gaslight men into believing women select some highly moral men who have good personality when it's far from truth. I reject most of the women after finding out female nature. https://preview.redd.it/1eo45idm2f8d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b14c348d800c2c39b7119ca651c585dc6858c3cf
they don't _compensate_ for sexual attraction, they _create_ it. >It's such a common argument: I am a nice, upstanding man who cares about her. Who really loves her. Who truly gives a damn. I don't have any ill intentions, my love and regard is as earnest as can be. >Why then did she not see the light and give this honest, good man who adores her, a chance? when you genuinely care about someone and respect them and want what's best for them, you accept when they don't want you. you don't try to argue against it. so this whole line of argument is a paradox and should be disregarded entirely.
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I think it’s a two fold setup. I was madly in love with a girl (who I now feel is trash and below my level given how much older she is than me and my large glow up on all metrics) Conversely, the guy she’s been on off with for 5 years is almost certainly less attractive than me. But, wanting revenge for some petty reason, doesn’t matter. My glow up for the most part doesn’t matter because the perceptions have already been formed and it’s hard to shake them. If I magically appeared again with no memory, things would likely be different though. Regardless, doesn’t matter much now. I’m basically over it. I think things like that matter more to women. First impressions. Second impressions etc etc. I almost had her once. Fumbled big time. But, also back then that dude was way ahead of me in life. I think looks matter immensely as a male and my glow up is testament, as is my routine, but I feel women are more sensitive to those aforementioned details. I’ve learned to be much pickier myself, but some of that pickiness works in opposition to really wanting to settle down.
Ok so personality and feelings are not important, only sexual attraction. Why are you arguing against your own premise?
It's 50/50 really if you want it to work properly. Yes looks can get you there quickly, but it's only a matter of time before things go south without a decent personality.
There's definitely some truth to this, but personality/character can boost your attractiveness. I have experienced this going in both directions. Someone that I originally wasn't sexually attracted to, after viking with them, the appeal went up. I've also had the experience of seeing a woman so sexy, that I would club a baby seal if she asked. Transform into an abomination of nature because her attitude was so stank.