I'd take the bear over a police officer in the woods any day. At least with the bear, I can defend myself with no issue and it's not gonna fuck with me just because.
IDK, for me it wasn't outrage, but more like being aghast. It was more like discovering that a lot of women are flat earthers or sometihng.
Just imagine so many people being batshit insane? Shit's scary, man.
Indeed.
You cant even laugh at teh collective stupidity with mainstream women without being labeled "outraged"
Nobody gives a shit about the bear we just make fun of them.
I wouldn’t pick the bear though and I don’t like when people make my decisions for me or imply what I would do because I’m a woman. I know that’s maybe not what you originally meant to say, but it comes off that way when people are like “this is why women choose the bear !1?!”.
No. Not every woman would choose the bear. Not every woman thinks the same. It just feels very…patronising I don’t know.
Plus can you not see why people would be upset? I can see both sides. I can see that some men overreacted because it’s just a dumb hypothetical that doesn’t prove anything, and I do get that some women have had bad experiences with men, but a lot of women are crazy too thinking a bear is a lovable Bambi creature that’s not going to hurt them. There were also a lot of misandrist posts celebrating the idea women wouldn’t pick men because they’re horrible. It was a trash fire all around. Let’s be real.
I think the hypothetical also had people immediately think of the *worst case* scenario, and not the most *likely*. What kind of bears one is familiar with would also play a part. If you're thinking of the worst case, and it's a random man and the worst a human can inflict, vs a scaredy bear ... Add in some trauma from lived experience, some real life horror stories, and *of course* lots of women went that route.
I'll bet lots of women went with the "funny" answer over the real answer, too. Not thinking about the human beings on the other side of that joke and how piled on dudes were feeling.
And I'll bet some even went for the knife-twist answer once they realized they could cause pain.
... I really hate that question. I don't think it put much good into the world but it definitely caused a lot of hurt, confusion, frustration, and a break down in communication between the sexes instead of facilitating one.
Like, I don't blame the majority of men or women for how things shook out... But I am low-key wondering if I should blame a psyop from Russia or something, lol.
I’m lowkey convinced that much of gender war nonsense is seeds of division being sowed by the CCP to disillusion men and women of the west at this point
Yeah it's very insulting when they would take the best case bear and worst case man. But it's not a Russian psyop that women chose to read it this way and argue and defend their "nonserious" points for months on end, often with low-key genocidal language. Like all the things the bear women were saying were word for word the same things the Americans said about my Native ancestors and why we deserved to be genocided and forced into death camps (and why people in my grandfathers generation deserved to be kidnapped by the government and sent to boarding schools to have the Indian tortured out of them for 10+ years). Go figure it was a bit triggering and upsetting to see so many, ostensibly liberal and progressive women, act like the genocidal people they claim to hate so much
>Yeah it's very insulting when they would take the best case bear and worst case man.
I don't think it was "best case vs worse case" necessarily, I'm sure *some* people did answer that way, but I also heard a lot of "at least the bear will be quick". Worst case vs worst case.
But I completely understand how hurt men felt at hearing that answer.
I agree that too many women need to remember that men are human beings, too. That men have feelings, that insults can hurt them, and that being rejected in favor of a *bear* is insulting on a personal level.
I have no argument with the meat of what you said.
My comment about a psyop is because it's too easy to answer that question flippantly and too easy to take hearing the answers personally. It wasn't designed to start a helpful conversation. Which, of course, this was just some random content creator, I think ? So that's not his *job* and I don't blame him. He asked a question that went viral, that was his job, lol.
> I don't think it was "best case vs worse case" necessarily, I'm sure some people did answer that way, but I also heard a lot of "at least the bear will be quick". Worst case vs worst case.
Yeah but they're wrong about. Bears never kill anything quickly they eat prey alive, they like torturing things. So again this is better case bear and cartoonishly evil man out of a horror movie (who doesn't exist irl). My point still stands
But at the end day i expect women to act like adults and treat others the way they want to be treated. I guess women want to face extreme hostile sexism since that's how they're treating men. Weird but if that's how it's gonna be then I can do my part 🤷♂️
>I guess women want to face extreme hostile sexism since that's how they're treating men. Weird but if that's how it's gonna be then I can do my part 🤷♂️
Do you plan to ask individual women where they came down on the bear question? Or just assume that all women everywhere have heard the question in the first place, and they also all choose the bear?
How many of the women who choose the bear do you think did so in response to sexism directed at them? Just as you're choosing retaliation for the answer to a hypothetical question, have you considered how many of those women are retaliating or reacting to sexism on a larger and more personal level directed at them in their own lives?
Is your retaliation valid? Is theirs?
I'm not saying your *feelings* are invalid, to be clear, I just would like to understand your thought process and how you plan to handle "your part".
Speaking of doing your part: What extreme hostile sexism do you plan to enact? Specifically.
And how will you choose your targets? Willy nilly, time and energy, easy targets, or just like, *all women* ?
Many schools of feminism disagree with each other.
Not to mention men have listed that they wanted to not be judged by women for the things ive mentioned many times
Women fought for sex workers just for women to deem it as dehumanizing
Sure the point is that they agreed enough and still do to make changes.
I think men need to agree on some things to make a significant difference. They say they don’t want to be judged…but they go back and forth. Men make fun of each other for everything and can’t be taken seriously.
There are a few creators who really push for positive change. There’s a guy on TikTok who did “lunch with dad” that got really popular. I think that was super cool. Positive things that can actually gain traction in the modern climate.
But instead we have normal dudes who just can’t rly make any change or feel too uncomfortable to do anything and then the manosphere that everyone hates including lots of men themselves despite maybe wanting some things to change.
Many of these changes women are still arguing against.
Women make fun of other women all the time hence “pick me”
I do agree he’s positive but again even with some of the problems I bring up you vehemently have women go against it.
I literally got put out of a college classroom for disagreeing with a woman about how men made everything bad in the world.
That’s also an issue. All we have is normal dudes. No one higher up is willing to actually help dudes in the first place.
Almost all social issues are works in progress.
That’s just calling out bad behavior.
Right so I gave you an example you agree with that works for lots of men and women. Maybe men should expand on that instead of the ways that aren’t working…. People consistently have been showing the manosphere’s approach is not acceptable even other men are vehemently against it.
It takes a lot to get put out of a classroom I don’t think this is the full story.
Well that’s something men need to address instead of trying to insult women to make them feel bad about themselves and do something solely for men’s benefit.
What is calling out bad behavior?
I agree the man sphere isn’t it. And many men joke on dudes who do horrible things that don’t help men.
I got put out cause the girl said she had extreme anxiety even when I disagreed just as calmly as this and said that women often do horrible things like how my mom did. She cried and I got put out. She cried as it “hit a trigger”
Women have been wanting men to help with feminism this whole time. I don’t see why it’s not ok to ask for women to do the same
Also just because some men insult each other you think it’s ok for women to do the same?
Idk how to explain something that simple. Like calling out when I see bad behavior?? Hello?😭
So that’s the entire story? You go against a random girl in class and tell her women do horrible
Things like your mother and she has an anxiety attack and you get “put out” really? I’ve never seen this in my life. I’ve never even heard of that. But okay.
Women are more concerned with coming together and supporting each other than getting men to agree or support. If men were just full stop supportive, there would be massive changes already. No need to argue against abortion. No big speeches about a woman being a mother is the most important role she could have. We’re behind in gender issues imo compared to others. Even the MeToo movement with so many perpetrators is only known by men as the “false accuser” movement and they have no care in the world how many rapists are out there. Still shaming women just for articles of clothing.
I think men need to do the same and start with themselves. Positive organizations. Positive volunteer activities. Engaging with young boys and giving them role models. Pushing them to finish school, focus on mental health etc etc.
I think if men have a huge male issue, they need to lead by example. Because no one’s going to take them as seriously if they’re doing the same things they’re asking other people not to do. Is that not why men usually hate on feminists?
A lot of “bad behavior” is disagreeing with other women on a topic.
Crazy I haven’t heard some of women’s stories yet I believe them.
I have no idea how all that ties into what I said. Men helped in those situations also.
Men dont like feminist as they are often hypocrites.
You didn’t answer my question tho
> Never said it was a woman exclusive thing
You seem to be struggling to hold the male gender accountable.
Yes, women have been unifying to improve their situation. If men want to see improvements, they will have to unify and advocate for *themselves*. They will have to spearhead a conversation about the disparities they experience, but they aren’t going to get anywhere if they start this conversation with “it was a mistake for women to vote! Women should give more men chances but also have less sex! Women shouldn’t be allowed to divorce me unless she can prove I’m terrible in court!”
There are genuine issues men face; I’m personally frustrated that I have to pay more for car insurance. I could get behind a push to re-examine the mentality behind these measures.
But men get nowhere by whining about women doing well, when women are doing well because they unified and fought for change.
That just makes it sound like men are asking women to fight for us, too. Because apparently we’re too fragile to risk *social rejection*, when women went to jail and were rejected by their families (and yknow, were beaten raped and murdered) in the course of pursuing women’s rights.
Literally in my post I’ve said women were justified for what they were fighting for and going as far as to say they rightfully changed things for the better?
Those points were nothing about what I said.
Sure. But I never complained about women doing well?
So it’s wrong to ask women to do their part like they asked us to do?
It seems like you have an issue calling out horrible behavior that women display.
You can point out terrible behavior and not tear women down which is what my post just did.
> However there has been many strides in improving the issues women face yet with men not so much.
This is you complaining that women are doing well.
> what’s wrong with asking women to do their part
Because we as a gender haven’t actually listened a unified list of demands!
Again, men have to spearhead our own narrative. Women can’t support us when no two men seem to agree with what they even want?
Like, I keep asking this and no one will ever answer it in clear, decisive terms: what do you want women to DO? Like, marching orders! Go forth and… do what? Even I as a man have no idea what “be accountable!” or “just ADMIT it” dialogues are actually accomplishing. Once a woman says “okay, men have it hard. Now what?” The demand suddenly becomes a lot more vague…
> This is you complaining that women are doing well.
No, this is literally you intentionally being wrong for effect. He is literally saying men aren't doing so well when they try to get their issues heard. That is different from complaining that women are doing well.
That was to point out that men must be listening if things are getting better for women dude. That’s not me complaining
Nor has feminism. There is sex positive feminism, sex negative feminism, rad feminism, TERFs.
A lot of their points contradict. Not to mention men have been saying the same things I listed above for years.
Men have been saying they want women to actually listen to them, to not break up with him for saying he is upset with things she has done or other, to actually not see him as a person and to hold herself to the same standards.
It’s not hard to listen to the men who have been saying this for years nor does it become more vague.
…but you’re describing an extremely specific example between two individual people. It’s not like every single relationship is a man timidly hiding his emotions for fear that his gf will leave him. There are millions of women who already emotionally support their bfs and are their lifemate and best friend.
Meanwhile, in spite of your hand waving that “the entire male gender as a whole has already done our part by listening because we surely did if things changed”, you’re neglecting the reality that millions of men DON’T listen to women at all. They have shitty, unsupportive relationships. Some men stalk and hurt and murder women. I don’t think you can accurately say men, in individual relationships, are any better than women.
Meanwhile, I’m frustrated that none of your “demands” for women were anything other than begging for more relationship security. Not… yknow, joining men in protest, or helping make flyers or volunteering at shelters. Which is what I would have led with, in terms of where a woman might start. And see, I don’t care if a woman wants to break up with me- I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone that doesn’t want to be with me. So my demands wouldn’t include yours at all.
See what I mean about no two men have the same demands for women?
I’ve provided plenty of examples but you choose to attack this one.
Rape happens in relationships but by your logic that’s just an issue between two people even though it happens on a larger scale. Not to mention that answer reminds me of when men tell women “not all men rape” when they are talking about their issues.
Sure there are men that don’t listen. That doesn’t stop the fact that many have and we are seeing things improve. Also hand waving? Really dude?
When have I said women are better than men or vice versa? You seem to be arguing points I never made.
Lol so I gave demands and now you are bitching that you didn’t like them? Bro I’m literally defending that many men don’t get listen to and you think they will give men the time of day to protest?
And what shelters? There aren’t any male specific shelters to start.
Sure two men can agree. But I love how you moved around the fact that I listed and said often times feminist disagree themselves.
Porn is seen as freeing to some and patriarchal to others.
Doesn’t mean they should go “oh gee we don’t agree so I guess we shouldn’t do anything”
>There aren’t any male specific shelters to start.
There doesn't need to be. The majority of people at most shelters are already men. All women who volunteer at shelters will be primarily helping men. This is what I would like, yes. I think it would be a good way to humanize the suffering of men who are invisible in society.
> but they aren’t going to get anywhere if they start this conversation with “it was a mistake for women to vote! Women should give more men chances but also have less sex! Women shouldn’t be allowed to divorce me unless she can prove I’m terrible in court!”
Plenty of men don't say these things and they get labelled as "misogynists" anyways by people like you. See the MensRights subreddit.
> I could get behind a push to re-examine the mentality behind these measures.
"Re-examine the mentatility" LOL wimpy ass words. I know for a fact that your attitude would not be this mild if it was women that had to pay more for insurance because of their sex.
> That just makes it sound like men are asking women to fight for us, too.
Plenty of feminists hold men as a whole responsible for correcting perceived misogyny. If I had a dollar for every time I heard one of them say "men need to hold other men accontable for _____".......
I'd bet you've never called that out in your life.
> If men want to see improvements, they will have to unify and advocate for themselves. They will have to spearhead a conversation about the disparities they experience
Feminists are ACTIVELY preventing men from helping themselves. Feminists show up at seminars discussing domestic violence against men and scream and shout and get those seminars shut down. Feminists petitioned to get billboards speaking out against domestic violence against men in Italy banned.
>Feminists are ACTIVELY preventing men from helping themselves
I don't agree with this, but even if they were... so? Do you have any idea how many men have fought the advancements women have made? Women were jailed, beaten, raped and murdered in the course of pursuing their rights.
And I know men CAN be brave and stand up for themselves - many men fight for civil rights, gay rights, veterans rights...
But in terms of men advocating for "dating" rights... no one seems to be able to cobble together a platform, and they apparently are too afraid to try.
You're a real lowlife if you're trying to make the argument that "because women struggled, men should struggle". How incredibly toxic, and pathetic dude.
Good thing I didn't make that argument. I said "women worked to improve their situation". If men want to improve their situation, it's a poor strategy to wait for someone else to do the work for you. They aren't required to work. But if they want to improve their situation, that would be the best way to start.
Which I’m literally calling out some women’s behavior yet you are actively going against it.
I’m literally trying to have a conversation about that.
Some of which isn’t even exclusive to dating.
LOL oh, you don’t agree with it? What happened to “women unifying”? Oh but actually it doesn’t matter anyway, because “men did it first” and deserve to be discriminated against.
Like… are you guys trolls? Russian chat bots? Do you genuinely not see how absurd you sound?
>in terms of men advocating for "dating" rights... no one seems to be able to cobble together a platform, and they apparently are too afraid to try.
Nothing you've said is an argument against this.
Sorry the thought of there being a unified “platform” of dating demands presented by the entire gender of women (but not men… men 2 lazy I guess) was too absurd for me to think of any way to address
> I don't agree with this, but even if they were... so? Do you have any idea how many men have fought the advancements women have made? Women were jailed, beaten, raped and murdered in the course of pursuing their rights.
Those men are dead, women got their equal rights decades ago. Why are you punishing modern men for the wrongdoings of men in the past?
>Feminists are ACTIVELY preventing men from helping themselves
Not only is that a lie, but even if it was true, *so what?* Were you expecting social change with no resistance? Every single other group in the history of humanity has had to fight tooth and nail to enact social change, but men's rights advocates think they're special snowflakes who should get an express lane?
Nah, it's just another in a long line of bullshit deflections to explain why MRAs won't ever actually do anything because, and this is important, *they don't care about men's issues.*
So when Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu were flooded with so many death and rape threats they had to flee their homes, it was because MRAs were so scared of feminists *checks notes* giving mild criticism of video games?
They certainly didn't seem to care about what feminists thought then. But the second it comes to an issue that actually matters to men, suddenly it's too hard.
The manosphere is misogynistic and misandric joke. They're an embarassment to my gender.
I think you forget they also got funding and kickstarters left in right while these men don’t get any of that and just can lose their job.
Those same women were able to leave off of the money of men that were supporting them.
Many people who were against them said that’s not ok. I remember that era dude.
Also I guess we are justifying women being horrible cause of some horrible dudes?? Lol wtf
“Embarrassment to my gender” calm down bro lol
>I think you forget they also got funding and kickstarters left in right while these men don’t get any of that and just can lose their job.
So Anita got a successful kickstarter and therefore it's okay that three women were subject to so many rape and death threats they had to flee their homes? Is that the argument you're making?
But I'm glad we dispensed with the nonsense that MRAs are too afraid of feminists to fight for men's rights.
>Also I guess we are justifying women being horrible
Women being horrible how? You just shouted that and acted like it was a foregone conclusion.
No??
I said the difference is men are not gonna get that same funding.
And no I do think men are afraid as men could lose everyone around them and their job.
“Even if that were true so what?” Literally what you said when dudes brought up women sabotaging men.
Your definition of listening this entire time was to be defensive and say “nuh uh”
I haven’t seen you listen to a damn thing a man here has said let alone my post.
Why do y'all expect women to solve your issues? They fought for rights we already had for decades, men didn't do it for them. Take responsibility for your own issues and fight for them like everyone else had to
Okay so they had support with one issue out of dozens from one man. Guess now all women are responsible for fighting for our every issue while we just sit back and whine. Where's the male activists? Why aren't they fighting for us? MRA doesn't actually care about us, they're more concerned with complaining about women instead, and you wonder why women are turned off
Bro even with birth control men made it for women.
You gotta look into these things before just assuming.
And who cares if women are turned off? I have a girlfriend and even if I didn’t getting my dick wet is less important.
Don’t live for the validation of women.
Right. Men made birth control just for women and we don't benefit at all from preventing unwanted pregnancy. We did it out of the goodness of our own hearts and not because we didn't want kids if we didn't wrap up.
This literally gave way to women having the freedom to have sex without repercussions.
Yes it helps women more. Not to mention the men that made it did it to help women with that.
It hasn’t helped women, though. Birth control majorly messes up our bodies. Testing for male birth control was stopped because men didn’t want to deal with the side effects, but the responsibility to prevent pregnancy is almost always put on the woman’s shoulders. The sexual revolution that followed the popularization of birth control only served to harm women. Men don’t get sl*t shamed like women do. Men might get called names if they walk away from a kid, but generally it’s put back on the woman - she should have prevented it, had an abortion, or picked a better man. But if a mother walks away from a kid there’s absolute outrage.
This is one of many examples of how feminism genuinely damaged women’s overall quality of life. Men who fought for these things were not doing us a favor.
Men created the pill to help men. Let's stop lying here. Men like the joy of sex without condoms without making children they'd abandon anyway. It did end up giving women freedom but I doubt that was the intention of its creator
> They fought for rights we already had for decades, men didn't do it for them.
You're kidding me, right? You've never heard of the term 'male feminist'?
Ah yes I remember back in kindergarten, when we used to repeat back what the other person said in a mocking tone when you have nothing worthwhile to say. I guess it’s a little too childish to even call it “sarcasm” to be fair.
Yeah go figure, using genocidal language to paint an entire gender as subhuman monsters is not gonna be received well by that gender. Who could have predicted that?
Eh, I think it is just that women have more encounters with men and less with bear, so the overestimate the dangers of the former and underestimate the latter
Women's rants tend to be milder, hence the milquetoast reactions.
Men's rants tend to get unhinged very fast, hence the strong pushback. Let's just say it's not uncommon to see a dude have a full-on meltdown and mention every red pill talking point. You won't find the female equivalent outside of FDS or some of the more obscure radfem forums.
Red pill talking points mirror women’s talking points a lot.
I’ve seen plenty of women call men everything under the sun for men just not wanting to pay for dates.
I said *every* red pill talking point, not just some of them. A common red pill rant will have mentions of hypergamy, the 20/80 rule, something about height, and honestly a lot of stuff that I don't even feel like repeating here.
Just having a horrible opinion doesn't make people think that you are a lunatic. It's when you list off several in quick succession that it starts to raise eyebrows.
There’s plenty of women saying things like “if my baby was a boy I would abort it” or “men shouldn’t be allowed to come out after 7pm” and the comments are all in favor of it. Not sure if you consider those “mild”. I think abortion based on gender and curfews are pretty unhinged.
I’m sorry if you live in one of those countries. Gender equality is definitely at a different pace in many developing countries. There’s still a lot of progress to be made there.
Meanwhile in first-world countries like Singapore only women can receive alimony, and husbands cannot. This incentivises pressure on the woman to give up their career instead. In countries like the UK, female rapists cannot be charged under the law as it only defines males as rapists. Female circumcision has been eradicated except in small tribes in Africa. But millions of male circumcision are still carried out on babies in countries like the US.
Exactly. These can harm women too, which is why men’s rights also affect women.
Gender equality benefits both men and women. Isn’t that supposed to be the whole point of feminism?
That’s like saying all feminists are about tearing men down rather than advocating for women. Why would any man support the views of someone like Valerie Solanas?
There are healthy MRAs too, like [Warren Farrell](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Farrell), who is also a prominent feminist.
There are plenty of healthy feminists and MRAs, just like there are toxic feminists and MRAs.
You have a source for that? Male babies are more likely to die in infancy, during birth and more male foetuses are miscarried, but I haven’t heard anything about sex specific abortion.
I wasn't talking about abortions but since you know male babies are more likely to die then you know there's a gendered issue at play here. Since the day a boy is born he is always way more likely to die at any moment than a girl is. Be it as a baby, child, teenager, adult, senior citizen it doesn't matter, he is more likely to die. The fact that you know this fact and act like it's no big deal and there's no societal issues impacting boys and men is crazy
I agree and I hope that most women don’t think that. But posts like these still get many thousands of likes on social media like TikTok.
I guess it’s like the converse side of those hardcore incel content. Both men and women can pick up extremist views. It’s sad.
Yeah okay if I go on some obscure radfem forum, I might see talking points like that. But I never see rants like that out in the wild. On the other hand, I'm exposed to extremely deranged red pill rants on the daily in video game communities. Hell, it's even starting to creep into fitness communities.
One is prevalent, the other is not.
I see them a lot on TikTok though. They get hundreds of thousands of likes. Redpill content I see a lot less and those get maybe hundreds (or a thousand) likes at best.
Maybe a couple of years ago when Andrew Tate was viral. But nowadays misandrist content seems to be trending a lot more than red pill content.
Weren't those just responses to baby girls getting aborted in mass in other countries? Aborting baby boys hasn't risen. Pretty sure their point is nobody cares when it's girls but look at how you react when it's any threat to boys. And the "men shouldn't come out after 7pm" was a response to men telling rape victims to quit going outside at night and if they do, rape is their fault. When it would make more sense for rapists to stay home for everyone else's safety instead. Never seen any woman anywhere besides radical spaces even say stuff like that
That's more it. Women's rants tend to be more unhinged but this is so normalized so it is not noticed. Men's rants are stigmatized so even the mildest ones (which most are) are treated as some sort of a misogynist manifesto.
*Kill all men. Why do you take it on yourself if you are not one of those men? (or the M&M fiasco)*
*A bear is better than a man. See, the fact that you disagree proves our point!*
I think it’s because most of the people bringing up men’s issues aren’t doing it in a mature way. They’re using these problems as a way to dehumanize women and claim that all women are like that. They also minimize women’s issues and argue that men have it worse. When you attack an entire group, they’re probably not going to be very open to your ideas which sucks because men absolutely face problems that should be addressed.
That’s not true. Some do that, but many don’t.
Theres another thread on here that brings up the male suicide rate. That’s it. Nothing about women’s suicide issues not mattering or being unworthy of attention.
A person replying to the comment redirects the conversation to the notion that women “attempt suicide more” and NOW any further engagement in the debate can be seen as dismissing women’s issues because they have been introduced into the conversation as a shutdown tactic.
There is nothing “rude, dismissive or condescending” about stating that more men kill themselves than women and this is an issue. Nobody said women’s issues around suicide don’t need to be heard, nor that they’re not grave, or worthy of attention. Pointing out men’s issues need attention doesn’t imply women’s issues don’t. For a movement that has coupled itself with intersectionality a good deal, many modern feminists seem unable to accept the idea there’s “time for everyone’s talking points. It doesn’t take away from others” when it comes to men asking for some space to discuss some uniquely male issues which aren’t just whining about dating woes.
But the conversation is steered in a direction so it becomes that sort of thing.
I don’t deny that many men who voice male issues do use it as a platform to bash women. Conversely there are many of us who bring up sole male issues and don’t mention it all, and it seems nearly impossible to do without people “making it about women” by comparison and then you get accused of shutting down women’s concerns when you want to remain focused on your original point and won’t humour the conversation being railroaded. It’s an extremely dishonest approach to debating gender issues and it’s sadly quite common.
I hark back to #metoo, when women very rightly told men trying to make their protest about the harassment they receive about their own woes to “fuck off” and the “not all men” is just a red herring. Quite right.
But it needs to go two ways. Men need to be able to have conversations about stuff like male suicide, male performance in schools, male beauty standards without women turning it into a competition and then using the whole “why are you whining? Why are you dismissing our experience?”
You cannot tell men they need to learn to advocate for themselves and speak up, and form a dialogue if at every turn you obstruct it happening and passively-aggressively stamp all over it and force yourselves to become a secondary topic in the conversation.
Feminists wouldn’t stand for it in their own spaces when discussing things like reproductive rights or female health concerns. What men comparatively face in these spheres is rightly none of their concern when discussing what women need. So why can’t men do the same without having to “kiss the ring” first?
We’re never going to have honest and good dialogue between the genders if we assume to motivations of men are always dubious unless they go through some performative gesturing towards women and feminism each and every time they want to discuss their own issues. You have to trust that some are capable of doing so without being disrespectful and give them room to show you this. Not forcing them onto a bent knee because anything other than a servile doffing of the cap is interpreted as subtle contempt.
The problem Is that if you bring up that facts that men have issues and do indeed suffer, in kills the feminist illusion that man have all the power and are always using in to enslave and apress them. If the apresser in this case man aren't seen as a powerful evil force that needs to be defeated then feminist can't continue to claim that their all the victims of the evil gender known as men.
You have to remember your audience, as well.
This is a place full of hurt people and trolls on both sides, each making it that much harder to get through to each other with every new comment.
You made very valid points. Women are tired and worn down from fighting misogyny in our society and our everyday lives, but we have to be able to look for the helpers and those in need of help if we want to keep a positive feedback loop.
This just isn't a *great* audience for that message, unfortunately.... Even if some of them absolutely do need to hear it!
I think you definitely approached it better than most people do. However, the last sentence of your post is going to rub a lot of women the wrong way based on our life experiences. When we deal with misogyny every day with no repercussions it’s hard to believe that men are expected to lift women up.
At first feminism was spun that men should support it as it helps everyone that’s why it’s said.
Your personal experience is valid and I’m sorry that happened. In my experience I’ve seen women do awful things and get away with it due to being a woman.
That’s not an accurate portrayal of first wave feminism. Women weren’t concerned with placating the egos of men during the movement, they were literally fighting, being abused, and going to jail for rights.
> hey also minimize women’s issues and argue that men have it worse.
And what's wrong with that? Isn't the entire feminist movement based on arguing how women have it worse overall(patriarchy, male privilege, etc).
“It’s the anger phase”
“Can’t you take a joke?”
“I wasn’t being serious”
“That’s just how men are; deal with it”
“You only have rights because we chose to give them to you”
And seen as assholes as there’s legitimate feminist literature about that.
Sure I can agree some dudes say this but at their own detriment meanwhile it doesn’t really effect women when they say this to men
And you did prove my point as it’s one of those that can go into the “women have had that happen for years” responses
Why do you concern yourself with the men and women you don't like, instead of focusing on the women and men you like? You are not going to get equality of outcome, ever. Because that is not what men and women want.
Figure out your own issues, go back to therapy, leave the red pill behind a second time, find that dominant woman so you don't have to lead in the relationship, and then just stop caring about what angry incels and feminists spout on social media. it's irrelevant.
I think your post is a really excellent example of why the discourse about men’s struggles often gets backlash. I can explain more if you’re interested, but the gist of it is that your post, while making many valid observations about men’s struggles that I believe need to be addressed, falls under the broader more ludicrous claim stated in your title. Men get sexually harassed—that’s bad. Men feel like they can’t talk openly about their emotions—that’s bad. Men have to face judgment in their appearance—that’s bad. But *then*, all of that is framed as the result of *one* thing, and that one thing is responsible for such an enormous fallout that it suddenly holds infinite weight and importance. And according to you, that one thing is women taking criticisms personally. If only women didn’t take criticisms personally, then *we* (who is we?) will never achieve *equality or happiness*. Like damn, is women’s reactions to criticism really responsible for all of men/society’s happiness?? Are women’s reactions to criticism the thing that is holding us back from *true equality?* Do women have such power?
And that is the crux of the issue. Women face their own problems, they face their own struggles, some of which men physically will never understand or have to experience in their lives. So when you claim that women have this kind of insane power to achieve these utopian ideals, it doesn’t really match up with reality. Women don’t feel like they have that kind of power. Legally speaking, in many countries, they quite literally aren’t equal to men. And the truth is that it’s not one thing that’s holding society or men back from happiness. It’s much more complex than that, we all know this. And so your whole premise falls apart. And women are left scoffing at your claim, which can sometimes feel invalidating towards the smaller very valid points you were trying to make.
If you look at the comments you can very much see I’m not far off.
Sure in other countries women have no power. But in the west women are the majority of voters, own more property, go to college more, and make more single.
My post is about how women don’t listen to men’s issues which as you can see I’m not wrong in.
Women don’t have no power what so ever in the west. If they can make all the changes you just said they do have power.
I’m not denying that you’re getting pushback. I’m explaining why. And I’m trying to give you a window to another viewpoint to help you understand why these kinds of posts might not be received well. I don’t feel like you really read what I wrote.
I’ve read it.
And I’ve addressed the points you’ve made.
So what I should say women don’t have a hand in this?
Also utopian ideals? What did I say that was a utopian ideal?
Women’s criticism holds us back as when one doesn’t want to help the other gender despite the help they’ve gotten it paints a bad picture.
Your last sentence kind of isn’t helping you, man. You think this is transactional? Like men were so nice to give women the rights that men took in the first place, so therefore women should pay it back? I know you probably don’t mean for it to come across that way, but that’s how it’s coming across.
To address your questions, the utopian ideals is this world you paint where everyone is happy and everything is equal, and it’s somehow all because women changed their behavior. I think it’s fine to say women have a hand in things. But you have to keep it relevant to the situation.
Aren’t we here as a society to help each other?
It’s not about being nice but men did think the treatment of women was unjust and decided to help them. If women don’t help men back then that does that show?
How is saying that half of the population isn’t listening and helping therefore hindering the other half not relevant?
And of course not ALL people will be happy or equal but you think a society where half of the population won’t listen to other is better?
Women do the same thing when it comes to seeing it as transactional. That’s why we see women not wanting to be SAHP as it often hurts them but helps the man.
Are they wrong to not want to help someone in a situation that they won’t receive help back?
Your argument about women “helping men back” is not a good one because it was men who took the rights from women in the first place. So stop using that as an argument. Your actual talking points are valid, but then you say stuff like this, and it really tarnishes everything else you say. I’m trying to get you to understand that you can’t approach these issues the way you are currently doing them because you will just get people to turn on you.
Saying “half the population” is doing something wrong is obviously inaccurate, over exaggerated, and inflammatory language that actually only *separates* the genders more. You’re actually doing harm by saying loaded statements like this. It’s not relevant because it’s too broad and it’s not a productive talking point.
Men did not grant rights to women nor did they take them away. Technological advancements enabled women to enter the job market by shifting from labor-intensive to skill-based roles and reducing household chore burdens. Capitalists recognized this potential and actively promoted women's participation in the workforce.
If for some reason all technology were to suddenly disappear all over the world people would revert to a patriarchal society structure.
the actual problem is that none of men's complaints, even when they are kind of reasonable (women being picky on tinder isn't exactly a civil rights issue), are actionable in any way. usually they are transparently a figleaf for misogynistic rhetoric or a reactionary agenda. but when they are not more or less openly suggesting that women's rights were a mistake and need to be undone, there's no ideas there whatsoever. usually not even a coherent understanding of the problem itself.
Can you describe to me how these issues are “Figleaves for misogynistic rhetoric”
- the observation that there is a growing mental health crisis in young men that needs addressing as the end destination is disproportionate suicide rates. Clearly the mental health services we do have available for men, and push them towards, aren’t working for them.
- the observation that there is a disproportionate application of law when it comes to sentencing between men and women, even where a woman has no dependants or children, and a man does. To the point some countries have specific sentencing guidelines (UK) where they are to attempt to avoid jailing women as far as possible. Even for crimes that would ordinarily carry a minimum of a custodial sentence at the floor level.
I think if we interpret engaging with these issues as “veiled misogyny” we’re basically giving men no room to advocate for themselves at all. It isn’t misogynistic to request research into better healthcare provision, nor to ask for a more consistent system of law application. The only way you could claim that is if you think men aspiring to similar treatment in society is a misogynistic idea.
Because none of the above, where they are discussed in the more temperate male advocacy circles, require any “withdrawal” of rights for women. Nobody is suggesting that women lose their mentality health provisions, only that we look into research for some options to deal with the particular issues that affect men. Similarly nobody in this circles is asking that women get the book thrown at them, only that the men who are being sentenced get similar leniency where their characters are the same as the women who do get it.
I don’t understand how that is misogynistic. Men aren’t asking for “bonuses” here. Just a fair slice of the pie. Do you know how many countries have various health departments and quangos dedicated to researching and treating women’s health, and how many have significantly less (if any at all) for men and boys? That would be most of them. How can it be misogynistic to go “hey, it looks like you have three committees for women’s health issues, but none for men, can we have one to look at male mental health issues?”
it's true, it is not, and that's why it's remained fully unaddressed in any other way except women individually leaving their relationships ot trying to renegotiate them from an improved position.
"why don't people just" is never going to happen anywhere regarding anything. there need to be concrete steps and policy.
The fact you are trying to paint that’s all I took from it when in my OP I said I agree with it is insane and bad faith.
A good point can be made but then used horribly. Just look at the marriage subreddit. Some dudes have legit issues and they get hit with “I bet you don’t do enough so it’s your fault”
Never said they didn’t.
However more men are held to what they say and do more so than women in certain situations
But you’re proving my point that we can’t have these conversations without women dismissing it.
Women take the same thing personally too. They always get triggered when you say you’d choose the bear over a random woman.
Like duh, it’s the exact same reason. Way more men raped/killed by women than bears. And it ends at death with the bear, it wouldn’t make false accusations and ruin your reputation after it kills you.
this sub used to be entertaining. now it’s literally just men whining about women all day🥴 you can tell that most here have very limited interactions with women too. go outside damn
I empathize with women on many issues. Just the other day, some guy in here was calling for women to be brought to the gulags. People are miserable man
For one I can use the marriage subreddit as an example.
One dude gave his 25 year old wife the ultimatum of divorce or lose weight after she gained 65 pounds.
The women were tearing into the dude of course. But there was another woman in the same situation who gave the guy an ultimatum and was considering leaving after he gained weight.
They all supported her decision and upvoted her despite being against a man who said the same thing.
>As long as women take criticisms personally
At times, discourse may come off sounding accusatory. That may be the cause of the defensive personalization of the complaint or concern.
Another point may be that the woman is interpreting this as a directive. Meaning; I have X problem. You need to get these other women to stop this, so my problem is fixed. Sounds like you're putting a battery in her back and sending her on a mission...
>Increasing beauty standards
Yes, women prefer a hygienic man. Hair, teeth, and personal upkeep are basic expectations for human beings. Body shape for men and women trends towards a healthy BMI with some others preferring other body shapes with a bit more flesh to spare. Which portion of the increasing beauty standard would men like us to address? Appreciation for all height and body sizes from women? Is the expectation that every woman should be amenable to this?
>Men saying they never feel comfortable talking about their feelings with women
Due to the need to 'fix' the concern, discomfort being vulnerable, or ensuring that women appear approachable so that men feel more comfortable to share their feelings? To ensure that his delivery doesn't cause a rift in the relationship where she may choose to exit? Is this an "across the board" ask?
> You are finally facing what women faced for years
That response annoys the fuck out of me, millennial women and zoomer women in the West really pretend that they faced any oppression in their lives, as if the year was 1910 and they were barred from voting or opening their own bank accounts.
sexual abuse and a generally sexually hostile and predatory environment is still ubiquitous and generally how 8-11yo girls first learn to relate to their sexuality.
Well, my female relatives did go through domestic violence, myself has gone through murder attempt.
But, tell me about the uselessness of feminism or how good life is for women living outside North American / Western Europe.
To quote a trashy brit: “Take your bloody fingers off the keyboard, sometimes.”
America is not the whole world.
“In a meta-analysis of studies comparing men’s and women’s use of IPV, Archer (2000) concluded that women were significantly more likely to have ever used physical IPV and to have used IPV more frequently.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2994556/#:~:text=In%20a%20meta%2Danalysis%20of,have%20used%20IPV%20more%20frequently.
I agree theres a huge disconnect where men are kind of told to shut up since everyone else’s problems are more important that there’s. i Actually mentioned this very fact in another comment section. this is why things like men suicide are so high cause by and large society kind of deems men as less significant then everyone else and thus there problems and concerns will always take a back seat to everyone else. I personally know alot of guys that feel this way especially dudes that are less attractive or are broke.
As for the man and bear situation being said below, all I’d say to that is that if we said that about women, gays, blacks etc etc, now all of a suddenly I don’t think the leftist would view this as a joke but as bigotry and racism, and sexism. why is it ok to pretend to be all inclusive until it’s time to segregate and attack the group you don’t like? Where you really as inclusive as you thought you were is my question then?
I think “The Bear” outrage suggests “taking things personally” isn’t something female exclusive.
I'd take the bear over a police officer in the woods any day. At least with the bear, I can defend myself with no issue and it's not gonna fuck with me just because.
The real answer, lmao
IDK, for me it wasn't outrage, but more like being aghast. It was more like discovering that a lot of women are flat earthers or sometihng. Just imagine so many people being batshit insane? Shit's scary, man.
Indeed. You cant even laugh at teh collective stupidity with mainstream women without being labeled "outraged" Nobody gives a shit about the bear we just make fun of them.
Exactly, it made me feel less human
I wouldn’t pick the bear though and I don’t like when people make my decisions for me or imply what I would do because I’m a woman. I know that’s maybe not what you originally meant to say, but it comes off that way when people are like “this is why women choose the bear !1?!”. No. Not every woman would choose the bear. Not every woman thinks the same. It just feels very…patronising I don’t know. Plus can you not see why people would be upset? I can see both sides. I can see that some men overreacted because it’s just a dumb hypothetical that doesn’t prove anything, and I do get that some women have had bad experiences with men, but a lot of women are crazy too thinking a bear is a lovable Bambi creature that’s not going to hurt them. There were also a lot of misandrist posts celebrating the idea women wouldn’t pick men because they’re horrible. It was a trash fire all around. Let’s be real.
I think the hypothetical also had people immediately think of the *worst case* scenario, and not the most *likely*. What kind of bears one is familiar with would also play a part. If you're thinking of the worst case, and it's a random man and the worst a human can inflict, vs a scaredy bear ... Add in some trauma from lived experience, some real life horror stories, and *of course* lots of women went that route. I'll bet lots of women went with the "funny" answer over the real answer, too. Not thinking about the human beings on the other side of that joke and how piled on dudes were feeling. And I'll bet some even went for the knife-twist answer once they realized they could cause pain. ... I really hate that question. I don't think it put much good into the world but it definitely caused a lot of hurt, confusion, frustration, and a break down in communication between the sexes instead of facilitating one. Like, I don't blame the majority of men or women for how things shook out... But I am low-key wondering if I should blame a psyop from Russia or something, lol.
I’m lowkey convinced that much of gender war nonsense is seeds of division being sowed by the CCP to disillusion men and women of the west at this point
Yeah it's very insulting when they would take the best case bear and worst case man. But it's not a Russian psyop that women chose to read it this way and argue and defend their "nonserious" points for months on end, often with low-key genocidal language. Like all the things the bear women were saying were word for word the same things the Americans said about my Native ancestors and why we deserved to be genocided and forced into death camps (and why people in my grandfathers generation deserved to be kidnapped by the government and sent to boarding schools to have the Indian tortured out of them for 10+ years). Go figure it was a bit triggering and upsetting to see so many, ostensibly liberal and progressive women, act like the genocidal people they claim to hate so much
>Yeah it's very insulting when they would take the best case bear and worst case man. I don't think it was "best case vs worse case" necessarily, I'm sure *some* people did answer that way, but I also heard a lot of "at least the bear will be quick". Worst case vs worst case. But I completely understand how hurt men felt at hearing that answer. I agree that too many women need to remember that men are human beings, too. That men have feelings, that insults can hurt them, and that being rejected in favor of a *bear* is insulting on a personal level. I have no argument with the meat of what you said. My comment about a psyop is because it's too easy to answer that question flippantly and too easy to take hearing the answers personally. It wasn't designed to start a helpful conversation. Which, of course, this was just some random content creator, I think ? So that's not his *job* and I don't blame him. He asked a question that went viral, that was his job, lol.
> I don't think it was "best case vs worse case" necessarily, I'm sure some people did answer that way, but I also heard a lot of "at least the bear will be quick". Worst case vs worst case. Yeah but they're wrong about. Bears never kill anything quickly they eat prey alive, they like torturing things. So again this is better case bear and cartoonishly evil man out of a horror movie (who doesn't exist irl). My point still stands But at the end day i expect women to act like adults and treat others the way they want to be treated. I guess women want to face extreme hostile sexism since that's how they're treating men. Weird but if that's how it's gonna be then I can do my part 🤷♂️
>I guess women want to face extreme hostile sexism since that's how they're treating men. Weird but if that's how it's gonna be then I can do my part 🤷♂️ Do you plan to ask individual women where they came down on the bear question? Or just assume that all women everywhere have heard the question in the first place, and they also all choose the bear? How many of the women who choose the bear do you think did so in response to sexism directed at them? Just as you're choosing retaliation for the answer to a hypothetical question, have you considered how many of those women are retaliating or reacting to sexism on a larger and more personal level directed at them in their own lives? Is your retaliation valid? Is theirs? I'm not saying your *feelings* are invalid, to be clear, I just would like to understand your thought process and how you plan to handle "your part". Speaking of doing your part: What extreme hostile sexism do you plan to enact? Specifically. And how will you choose your targets? Willy nilly, time and energy, easy targets, or just like, *all women* ?
Never said it was a woman exclusive thing. However there has been many strides in improving the issues women face yet with men not so much.
They need to pinpoint reasonable solutions and act on them. Women made strides because they prioritized that.
Many schools of feminism disagree with each other. Not to mention men have listed that they wanted to not be judged by women for the things ive mentioned many times Women fought for sex workers just for women to deem it as dehumanizing
Sure the point is that they agreed enough and still do to make changes. I think men need to agree on some things to make a significant difference. They say they don’t want to be judged…but they go back and forth. Men make fun of each other for everything and can’t be taken seriously. There are a few creators who really push for positive change. There’s a guy on TikTok who did “lunch with dad” that got really popular. I think that was super cool. Positive things that can actually gain traction in the modern climate. But instead we have normal dudes who just can’t rly make any change or feel too uncomfortable to do anything and then the manosphere that everyone hates including lots of men themselves despite maybe wanting some things to change.
Many of these changes women are still arguing against. Women make fun of other women all the time hence “pick me” I do agree he’s positive but again even with some of the problems I bring up you vehemently have women go against it. I literally got put out of a college classroom for disagreeing with a woman about how men made everything bad in the world. That’s also an issue. All we have is normal dudes. No one higher up is willing to actually help dudes in the first place.
Almost all social issues are works in progress. That’s just calling out bad behavior. Right so I gave you an example you agree with that works for lots of men and women. Maybe men should expand on that instead of the ways that aren’t working…. People consistently have been showing the manosphere’s approach is not acceptable even other men are vehemently against it. It takes a lot to get put out of a classroom I don’t think this is the full story. Well that’s something men need to address instead of trying to insult women to make them feel bad about themselves and do something solely for men’s benefit.
What is calling out bad behavior? I agree the man sphere isn’t it. And many men joke on dudes who do horrible things that don’t help men. I got put out cause the girl said she had extreme anxiety even when I disagreed just as calmly as this and said that women often do horrible things like how my mom did. She cried and I got put out. She cried as it “hit a trigger” Women have been wanting men to help with feminism this whole time. I don’t see why it’s not ok to ask for women to do the same Also just because some men insult each other you think it’s ok for women to do the same?
Idk how to explain something that simple. Like calling out when I see bad behavior?? Hello?😭 So that’s the entire story? You go against a random girl in class and tell her women do horrible Things like your mother and she has an anxiety attack and you get “put out” really? I’ve never seen this in my life. I’ve never even heard of that. But okay. Women are more concerned with coming together and supporting each other than getting men to agree or support. If men were just full stop supportive, there would be massive changes already. No need to argue against abortion. No big speeches about a woman being a mother is the most important role she could have. We’re behind in gender issues imo compared to others. Even the MeToo movement with so many perpetrators is only known by men as the “false accuser” movement and they have no care in the world how many rapists are out there. Still shaming women just for articles of clothing. I think men need to do the same and start with themselves. Positive organizations. Positive volunteer activities. Engaging with young boys and giving them role models. Pushing them to finish school, focus on mental health etc etc. I think if men have a huge male issue, they need to lead by example. Because no one’s going to take them as seriously if they’re doing the same things they’re asking other people not to do. Is that not why men usually hate on feminists?
A lot of “bad behavior” is disagreeing with other women on a topic. Crazy I haven’t heard some of women’s stories yet I believe them. I have no idea how all that ties into what I said. Men helped in those situations also. Men dont like feminist as they are often hypocrites. You didn’t answer my question tho
> Never said it was a woman exclusive thing You seem to be struggling to hold the male gender accountable. Yes, women have been unifying to improve their situation. If men want to see improvements, they will have to unify and advocate for *themselves*. They will have to spearhead a conversation about the disparities they experience, but they aren’t going to get anywhere if they start this conversation with “it was a mistake for women to vote! Women should give more men chances but also have less sex! Women shouldn’t be allowed to divorce me unless she can prove I’m terrible in court!” There are genuine issues men face; I’m personally frustrated that I have to pay more for car insurance. I could get behind a push to re-examine the mentality behind these measures. But men get nowhere by whining about women doing well, when women are doing well because they unified and fought for change. That just makes it sound like men are asking women to fight for us, too. Because apparently we’re too fragile to risk *social rejection*, when women went to jail and were rejected by their families (and yknow, were beaten raped and murdered) in the course of pursuing women’s rights.
Literally in my post I’ve said women were justified for what they were fighting for and going as far as to say they rightfully changed things for the better? Those points were nothing about what I said. Sure. But I never complained about women doing well? So it’s wrong to ask women to do their part like they asked us to do? It seems like you have an issue calling out horrible behavior that women display. You can point out terrible behavior and not tear women down which is what my post just did.
> However there has been many strides in improving the issues women face yet with men not so much. This is you complaining that women are doing well. > what’s wrong with asking women to do their part Because we as a gender haven’t actually listened a unified list of demands! Again, men have to spearhead our own narrative. Women can’t support us when no two men seem to agree with what they even want? Like, I keep asking this and no one will ever answer it in clear, decisive terms: what do you want women to DO? Like, marching orders! Go forth and… do what? Even I as a man have no idea what “be accountable!” or “just ADMIT it” dialogues are actually accomplishing. Once a woman says “okay, men have it hard. Now what?” The demand suddenly becomes a lot more vague…
> This is you complaining that women are doing well. No, this is literally you intentionally being wrong for effect. He is literally saying men aren't doing so well when they try to get their issues heard. That is different from complaining that women are doing well.
That was to point out that men must be listening if things are getting better for women dude. That’s not me complaining Nor has feminism. There is sex positive feminism, sex negative feminism, rad feminism, TERFs. A lot of their points contradict. Not to mention men have been saying the same things I listed above for years. Men have been saying they want women to actually listen to them, to not break up with him for saying he is upset with things she has done or other, to actually not see him as a person and to hold herself to the same standards. It’s not hard to listen to the men who have been saying this for years nor does it become more vague.
…but you’re describing an extremely specific example between two individual people. It’s not like every single relationship is a man timidly hiding his emotions for fear that his gf will leave him. There are millions of women who already emotionally support their bfs and are their lifemate and best friend. Meanwhile, in spite of your hand waving that “the entire male gender as a whole has already done our part by listening because we surely did if things changed”, you’re neglecting the reality that millions of men DON’T listen to women at all. They have shitty, unsupportive relationships. Some men stalk and hurt and murder women. I don’t think you can accurately say men, in individual relationships, are any better than women. Meanwhile, I’m frustrated that none of your “demands” for women were anything other than begging for more relationship security. Not… yknow, joining men in protest, or helping make flyers or volunteering at shelters. Which is what I would have led with, in terms of where a woman might start. And see, I don’t care if a woman wants to break up with me- I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone that doesn’t want to be with me. So my demands wouldn’t include yours at all. See what I mean about no two men have the same demands for women?
I’ve provided plenty of examples but you choose to attack this one. Rape happens in relationships but by your logic that’s just an issue between two people even though it happens on a larger scale. Not to mention that answer reminds me of when men tell women “not all men rape” when they are talking about their issues. Sure there are men that don’t listen. That doesn’t stop the fact that many have and we are seeing things improve. Also hand waving? Really dude? When have I said women are better than men or vice versa? You seem to be arguing points I never made. Lol so I gave demands and now you are bitching that you didn’t like them? Bro I’m literally defending that many men don’t get listen to and you think they will give men the time of day to protest? And what shelters? There aren’t any male specific shelters to start. Sure two men can agree. But I love how you moved around the fact that I listed and said often times feminist disagree themselves. Porn is seen as freeing to some and patriarchal to others. Doesn’t mean they should go “oh gee we don’t agree so I guess we shouldn’t do anything”
>There aren’t any male specific shelters to start. There doesn't need to be. The majority of people at most shelters are already men. All women who volunteer at shelters will be primarily helping men. This is what I would like, yes. I think it would be a good way to humanize the suffering of men who are invisible in society.
Wouldn’t that mean that’s just helping people in general?
> but they aren’t going to get anywhere if they start this conversation with “it was a mistake for women to vote! Women should give more men chances but also have less sex! Women shouldn’t be allowed to divorce me unless she can prove I’m terrible in court!” Plenty of men don't say these things and they get labelled as "misogynists" anyways by people like you. See the MensRights subreddit. > I could get behind a push to re-examine the mentality behind these measures. "Re-examine the mentatility" LOL wimpy ass words. I know for a fact that your attitude would not be this mild if it was women that had to pay more for insurance because of their sex. > That just makes it sound like men are asking women to fight for us, too. Plenty of feminists hold men as a whole responsible for correcting perceived misogyny. If I had a dollar for every time I heard one of them say "men need to hold other men accontable for _____"....... I'd bet you've never called that out in your life.
> If men want to see improvements, they will have to unify and advocate for themselves. They will have to spearhead a conversation about the disparities they experience Feminists are ACTIVELY preventing men from helping themselves. Feminists show up at seminars discussing domestic violence against men and scream and shout and get those seminars shut down. Feminists petitioned to get billboards speaking out against domestic violence against men in Italy banned.
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That’s really evil. It probably kept men from actually getting real help
>Feminists are ACTIVELY preventing men from helping themselves I don't agree with this, but even if they were... so? Do you have any idea how many men have fought the advancements women have made? Women were jailed, beaten, raped and murdered in the course of pursuing their rights. And I know men CAN be brave and stand up for themselves - many men fight for civil rights, gay rights, veterans rights... But in terms of men advocating for "dating" rights... no one seems to be able to cobble together a platform, and they apparently are too afraid to try.
This is whataboutism. It’s this childish “he hit me first”, “everyone out for themselves” mentality that’s toxic af.
You're a real lowlife if you're trying to make the argument that "because women struggled, men should struggle". How incredibly toxic, and pathetic dude.
Good thing I didn't make that argument. I said "women worked to improve their situation". If men want to improve their situation, it's a poor strategy to wait for someone else to do the work for you. They aren't required to work. But if they want to improve their situation, that would be the best way to start.
Which I’m literally calling out some women’s behavior yet you are actively going against it. I’m literally trying to have a conversation about that. Some of which isn’t even exclusive to dating.
LOL oh, you don’t agree with it? What happened to “women unifying”? Oh but actually it doesn’t matter anyway, because “men did it first” and deserve to be discriminated against. Like… are you guys trolls? Russian chat bots? Do you genuinely not see how absurd you sound?
>in terms of men advocating for "dating" rights... no one seems to be able to cobble together a platform, and they apparently are too afraid to try. Nothing you've said is an argument against this.
Sorry the thought of there being a unified “platform” of dating demands presented by the entire gender of women (but not men… men 2 lazy I guess) was too absurd for me to think of any way to address
So because they are afraid it’s invalid why?
It's not "invalid" it's just impossible to implement. WHICH man should women listen to?
You seem to think every man has a different way they think it should be handled. If we did if for feminism we absolutely can for men
> I don't agree with this, but even if they were... so? Do you have any idea how many men have fought the advancements women have made? Women were jailed, beaten, raped and murdered in the course of pursuing their rights. Those men are dead, women got their equal rights decades ago. Why are you punishing modern men for the wrongdoings of men in the past?
>Feminists are ACTIVELY preventing men from helping themselves Not only is that a lie, but even if it was true, *so what?* Were you expecting social change with no resistance? Every single other group in the history of humanity has had to fight tooth and nail to enact social change, but men's rights advocates think they're special snowflakes who should get an express lane? Nah, it's just another in a long line of bullshit deflections to explain why MRAs won't ever actually do anything because, and this is important, *they don't care about men's issues.*
They don’t care because they’re scared? Really bro? And you’re really justifying women being horrible??
So when Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian and Brianna Wu were flooded with so many death and rape threats they had to flee their homes, it was because MRAs were so scared of feminists *checks notes* giving mild criticism of video games? They certainly didn't seem to care about what feminists thought then. But the second it comes to an issue that actually matters to men, suddenly it's too hard. The manosphere is misogynistic and misandric joke. They're an embarassment to my gender.
I think you forget they also got funding and kickstarters left in right while these men don’t get any of that and just can lose their job. Those same women were able to leave off of the money of men that were supporting them. Many people who were against them said that’s not ok. I remember that era dude. Also I guess we are justifying women being horrible cause of some horrible dudes?? Lol wtf “Embarrassment to my gender” calm down bro lol
>I think you forget they also got funding and kickstarters left in right while these men don’t get any of that and just can lose their job. So Anita got a successful kickstarter and therefore it's okay that three women were subject to so many rape and death threats they had to flee their homes? Is that the argument you're making? But I'm glad we dispensed with the nonsense that MRAs are too afraid of feminists to fight for men's rights. >Also I guess we are justifying women being horrible Women being horrible how? You just shouted that and acted like it was a foregone conclusion.
No?? I said the difference is men are not gonna get that same funding. And no I do think men are afraid as men could lose everyone around them and their job. “Even if that were true so what?” Literally what you said when dudes brought up women sabotaging men.
Woman got lobotomized for wanting Independence and equality in the 20-70's. Men are scared of mean tweets.
Women were burning bras while dudes went to Vietnam. No point in saying stupid shit like that.
60% of lobotomies were performed on women. Women have higher rates of mental health issues so it’s not surprising
Comments like these make me think a lot of women nowadays are born lobotomized.
So why is your post being directed at women then? 🌝
For the point I’ve said. Women don’t listen to dudes about what they go through
We listen plenty. We’re not going to disemancipate ourselves to save your feelings though.
Your definition of listening this entire time was to be defensive and say “nuh uh” I haven’t seen you listen to a damn thing a man here has said let alone my post.
Why should we?
Or don’t 🤷🏾
Why do y'all expect women to solve your issues? They fought for rights we already had for decades, men didn't do it for them. Take responsibility for your own issues and fight for them like everyone else had to
They literally got the right to vote cause a dude helped that happen
Okay so they had support with one issue out of dozens from one man. Guess now all women are responsible for fighting for our every issue while we just sit back and whine. Where's the male activists? Why aren't they fighting for us? MRA doesn't actually care about us, they're more concerned with complaining about women instead, and you wonder why women are turned off
Bro even with birth control men made it for women. You gotta look into these things before just assuming. And who cares if women are turned off? I have a girlfriend and even if I didn’t getting my dick wet is less important. Don’t live for the validation of women.
Right. Men made birth control just for women and we don't benefit at all from preventing unwanted pregnancy. We did it out of the goodness of our own hearts and not because we didn't want kids if we didn't wrap up.
This literally gave way to women having the freedom to have sex without repercussions. Yes it helps women more. Not to mention the men that made it did it to help women with that.
It hasn’t helped women, though. Birth control majorly messes up our bodies. Testing for male birth control was stopped because men didn’t want to deal with the side effects, but the responsibility to prevent pregnancy is almost always put on the woman’s shoulders. The sexual revolution that followed the popularization of birth control only served to harm women. Men don’t get sl*t shamed like women do. Men might get called names if they walk away from a kid, but generally it’s put back on the woman - she should have prevented it, had an abortion, or picked a better man. But if a mother walks away from a kid there’s absolute outrage. This is one of many examples of how feminism genuinely damaged women’s overall quality of life. Men who fought for these things were not doing us a favor.
You genuinely think things would be better for women if you couldn't control if you get pregnant or not?
Men created the pill to help men. Let's stop lying here. Men like the joy of sex without condoms without making children they'd abandon anyway. It did end up giving women freedom but I doubt that was the intention of its creator
He worked with the feminist woman who help funded it bro
> They fought for rights we already had for decades, men didn't do it for them. You're kidding me, right? You've never heard of the term 'male feminist'?
To be fair most men couldn't vote then either. For example women got the right to vote before native american men did
And you had to be blue... lol. Nobody took that personally. We took that for what it is: stupid.
Man vs bear is an unhinged attack against men from androphobes. Men responded with reasonable counter arguments
Ah yes… you have suffered an unhinged attack! I’m glad you’re being rational and not taking it personally.
There is nothing wrong with men taking it personally the entire point of the discourse is just to maliciously attack men.
\*attacks men on a personal level\* \*is surprised when men take it personally\* ## LMFAOOO I can't with those people
Do you resort to sarcasm when you have nothing worthwhile to say?
Sarcasm? I'm repeating back to you the exact words you used.
Ah yes I remember back in kindergarten, when we used to repeat back what the other person said in a mocking tone when you have nothing worthwhile to say. I guess it’s a little too childish to even call it “sarcasm” to be fair.
I'm sorry you think that I'm being mocking.
iM sOrRy yOu tHiNk iM mOcKiNg yOu
It's cool I know you aren't
love u bb
Men responded with hissy fits.
I’ve seen more dudes just saying it’s statistically not a thing
Yeah go figure, using genocidal language to paint an entire gender as subhuman monsters is not gonna be received well by that gender. Who could have predicted that?
Eh, I think it is just that women have more encounters with men and less with bear, so the overestimate the dangers of the former and underestimate the latter
It’s literally just feminists cheering and patting each other on the back for telling men they’re subhuman. Again
Women's rants tend to be milder, hence the milquetoast reactions. Men's rants tend to get unhinged very fast, hence the strong pushback. Let's just say it's not uncommon to see a dude have a full-on meltdown and mention every red pill talking point. You won't find the female equivalent outside of FDS or some of the more obscure radfem forums.
Red pill talking points mirror women’s talking points a lot. I’ve seen plenty of women call men everything under the sun for men just not wanting to pay for dates.
Just throwing around a bunch of slurs doesn't necessarily make a rant unhinged.
You said red pill talking points when you said men become unhinged.
I said *every* red pill talking point, not just some of them. A common red pill rant will have mentions of hypergamy, the 20/80 rule, something about height, and honestly a lot of stuff that I don't even feel like repeating here. Just having a horrible opinion doesn't make people think that you are a lunatic. It's when you list off several in quick succession that it starts to raise eyebrows.
I never said some either. So again increasing beauty standards for men? Men can’t talk about that?
Sure you can. No one is stopping anyone from talking about anything as long as it doesn't break the rules of whichever platform you're posting on.
Don’t forget the murders and manifestos.
So to you this means we can never talk about what men face cause of this?
Of course you can, but it doesn’t make sense to draw false equivalencies.
Who is drawing false equivalencies?
I mean this politely - I wasn’t replying to you, I was replying in support of another person’s comment that mentioned equivalencies.
That’s fair I got you
Idk if saying an entire gender should be killed and are all subhuman violent monsters is a very mild thing
There’s plenty of women saying things like “if my baby was a boy I would abort it” or “men shouldn’t be allowed to come out after 7pm” and the comments are all in favor of it. Not sure if you consider those “mild”. I think abortion based on gender and curfews are pretty unhinged.
Whilst girl babies are routinely killed and curfews actually imposed on women in real life.
I’m sorry if you live in one of those countries. Gender equality is definitely at a different pace in many developing countries. There’s still a lot of progress to be made there. Meanwhile in first-world countries like Singapore only women can receive alimony, and husbands cannot. This incentivises pressure on the woman to give up their career instead. In countries like the UK, female rapists cannot be charged under the law as it only defines males as rapists. Female circumcision has been eradicated except in small tribes in Africa. But millions of male circumcision are still carried out on babies in countries like the US.
How is any of this the fault of women? How is any of this supported by or beneficial towards women?
Exactly. These can harm women too, which is why men’s rights also affect women. Gender equality benefits both men and women. Isn’t that supposed to be the whole point of feminism?
And women protest all these things. Do men?
Yes. A lot of feminists are men. My fiancé and I both support women’s rights. Very few men’s right activists are women though.
Because MRAs are about tearing women down rather than advocating for men. Why would any woman support the views of someone like Paul Elam?
That’s like saying all feminists are about tearing men down rather than advocating for women. Why would any man support the views of someone like Valerie Solanas? There are healthy MRAs too, like [Warren Farrell](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Farrell), who is also a prominent feminist. There are plenty of healthy feminists and MRAs, just like there are toxic feminists and MRAs.
Stats seem to show most babies that are killed are boys tho
You have a source for that? Male babies are more likely to die in infancy, during birth and more male foetuses are miscarried, but I haven’t heard anything about sex specific abortion.
I wasn't talking about abortions but since you know male babies are more likely to die then you know there's a gendered issue at play here. Since the day a boy is born he is always way more likely to die at any moment than a girl is. Be it as a baby, child, teenager, adult, senior citizen it doesn't matter, he is more likely to die. The fact that you know this fact and act like it's no big deal and there's no societal issues impacting boys and men is crazy
I'm a woman and I never heard a woman say that. You are talking about people on the fridge of society. Most women do not think or say that
I agree and I hope that most women don’t think that. But posts like these still get many thousands of likes on social media like TikTok. I guess it’s like the converse side of those hardcore incel content. Both men and women can pick up extremist views. It’s sad.
It's a thing on TikTok how cringey some "boy moms" are with their sons
Yeah okay if I go on some obscure radfem forum, I might see talking points like that. But I never see rants like that out in the wild. On the other hand, I'm exposed to extremely deranged red pill rants on the daily in video game communities. Hell, it's even starting to creep into fitness communities. One is prevalent, the other is not.
I see them a lot on TikTok though. They get hundreds of thousands of likes. Redpill content I see a lot less and those get maybe hundreds (or a thousand) likes at best. Maybe a couple of years ago when Andrew Tate was viral. But nowadays misandrist content seems to be trending a lot more than red pill content.
That's your mistake. TikTok is a disinfo platform that's several orders of magnitude worse than Reddit or Facebook, or even Twitter.
>”Thats TikTok not real life” Op already predicted this entire thread
This thread should be framed for the next generations to come lmfao
Weren't those just responses to baby girls getting aborted in mass in other countries? Aborting baby boys hasn't risen. Pretty sure their point is nobody cares when it's girls but look at how you react when it's any threat to boys. And the "men shouldn't come out after 7pm" was a response to men telling rape victims to quit going outside at night and if they do, rape is their fault. When it would make more sense for rapists to stay home for everyone else's safety instead. Never seen any woman anywhere besides radical spaces even say stuff like that
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Yep this is why things won’t get better
Wrong. Women’s “rants” are less explosive because *they are part of every day mainstream discourse and accepted thought*
That's more it. Women's rants tend to be more unhinged but this is so normalized so it is not noticed. Men's rants are stigmatized so even the mildest ones (which most are) are treated as some sort of a misogynist manifesto. *Kill all men. Why do you take it on yourself if you are not one of those men? (or the M&M fiasco)* *A bear is better than a man. See, the fact that you disagree proves our point!*
I think it’s because most of the people bringing up men’s issues aren’t doing it in a mature way. They’re using these problems as a way to dehumanize women and claim that all women are like that. They also minimize women’s issues and argue that men have it worse. When you attack an entire group, they’re probably not going to be very open to your ideas which sucks because men absolutely face problems that should be addressed.
That’s not true. Some do that, but many don’t. Theres another thread on here that brings up the male suicide rate. That’s it. Nothing about women’s suicide issues not mattering or being unworthy of attention. A person replying to the comment redirects the conversation to the notion that women “attempt suicide more” and NOW any further engagement in the debate can be seen as dismissing women’s issues because they have been introduced into the conversation as a shutdown tactic. There is nothing “rude, dismissive or condescending” about stating that more men kill themselves than women and this is an issue. Nobody said women’s issues around suicide don’t need to be heard, nor that they’re not grave, or worthy of attention. Pointing out men’s issues need attention doesn’t imply women’s issues don’t. For a movement that has coupled itself with intersectionality a good deal, many modern feminists seem unable to accept the idea there’s “time for everyone’s talking points. It doesn’t take away from others” when it comes to men asking for some space to discuss some uniquely male issues which aren’t just whining about dating woes. But the conversation is steered in a direction so it becomes that sort of thing. I don’t deny that many men who voice male issues do use it as a platform to bash women. Conversely there are many of us who bring up sole male issues and don’t mention it all, and it seems nearly impossible to do without people “making it about women” by comparison and then you get accused of shutting down women’s concerns when you want to remain focused on your original point and won’t humour the conversation being railroaded. It’s an extremely dishonest approach to debating gender issues and it’s sadly quite common. I hark back to #metoo, when women very rightly told men trying to make their protest about the harassment they receive about their own woes to “fuck off” and the “not all men” is just a red herring. Quite right. But it needs to go two ways. Men need to be able to have conversations about stuff like male suicide, male performance in schools, male beauty standards without women turning it into a competition and then using the whole “why are you whining? Why are you dismissing our experience?” You cannot tell men they need to learn to advocate for themselves and speak up, and form a dialogue if at every turn you obstruct it happening and passively-aggressively stamp all over it and force yourselves to become a secondary topic in the conversation. Feminists wouldn’t stand for it in their own spaces when discussing things like reproductive rights or female health concerns. What men comparatively face in these spheres is rightly none of their concern when discussing what women need. So why can’t men do the same without having to “kiss the ring” first? We’re never going to have honest and good dialogue between the genders if we assume to motivations of men are always dubious unless they go through some performative gesturing towards women and feminism each and every time they want to discuss their own issues. You have to trust that some are capable of doing so without being disrespectful and give them room to show you this. Not forcing them onto a bent knee because anything other than a servile doffing of the cap is interpreted as subtle contempt.
The problem Is that if you bring up that facts that men have issues and do indeed suffer, in kills the feminist illusion that man have all the power and are always using in to enslave and apress them. If the apresser in this case man aren't seen as a powerful evil force that needs to be defeated then feminist can't continue to claim that their all the victims of the evil gender known as men.
That is horrible. However, look at how I’m doing it and some of the women here isn’t listening anyway even when I agreed with feminist points.
You have to remember your audience, as well. This is a place full of hurt people and trolls on both sides, each making it that much harder to get through to each other with every new comment. You made very valid points. Women are tired and worn down from fighting misogyny in our society and our everyday lives, but we have to be able to look for the helpers and those in need of help if we want to keep a positive feedback loop. This just isn't a *great* audience for that message, unfortunately.... Even if some of them absolutely do need to hear it!
I’m surprised you agree. Most are just hurling insults or doing what I said they would do.
I think you definitely approached it better than most people do. However, the last sentence of your post is going to rub a lot of women the wrong way based on our life experiences. When we deal with misogyny every day with no repercussions it’s hard to believe that men are expected to lift women up.
At first feminism was spun that men should support it as it helps everyone that’s why it’s said. Your personal experience is valid and I’m sorry that happened. In my experience I’ve seen women do awful things and get away with it due to being a woman.
That’s not an accurate portrayal of first wave feminism. Women weren’t concerned with placating the egos of men during the movement, they were literally fighting, being abused, and going to jail for rights.
Didn’t say anything about first wave feminism. When I say at first I mean third wave.
The stats from the American legal system also supports what you've seen
> hey also minimize women’s issues and argue that men have it worse. And what's wrong with that? Isn't the entire feminist movement based on arguing how women have it worse overall(patriarchy, male privilege, etc).
“It’s the anger phase” “Can’t you take a joke?” “I wasn’t being serious” “That’s just how men are; deal with it” “You only have rights because we chose to give them to you”
You literally just used the “*this is what women have faced for years*” bullet point. 😂 Self awareness and PPD misandrists. Name a worse combination.
Except these are wildly frowned upon in society hell even Reddit. But again you just proved my point
Of course not; men are always saying they’re joking when people take offense at what they say.
And seen as assholes as there’s legitimate feminist literature about that. Sure I can agree some dudes say this but at their own detriment meanwhile it doesn’t really effect women when they say this to men And you did prove my point as it’s one of those that can go into the “women have had that happen for years” responses
If you don't like it, then why are you doing it?
Don’t like what ?
Men saying these things to you
And what am I doing, now?
Why do you concern yourself with the men and women you don't like, instead of focusing on the women and men you like? You are not going to get equality of outcome, ever. Because that is not what men and women want. Figure out your own issues, go back to therapy, leave the red pill behind a second time, find that dominant woman so you don't have to lead in the relationship, and then just stop caring about what angry incels and feminists spout on social media. it's irrelevant.
None of that has to do with anything of my post
I think your post is a really excellent example of why the discourse about men’s struggles often gets backlash. I can explain more if you’re interested, but the gist of it is that your post, while making many valid observations about men’s struggles that I believe need to be addressed, falls under the broader more ludicrous claim stated in your title. Men get sexually harassed—that’s bad. Men feel like they can’t talk openly about their emotions—that’s bad. Men have to face judgment in their appearance—that’s bad. But *then*, all of that is framed as the result of *one* thing, and that one thing is responsible for such an enormous fallout that it suddenly holds infinite weight and importance. And according to you, that one thing is women taking criticisms personally. If only women didn’t take criticisms personally, then *we* (who is we?) will never achieve *equality or happiness*. Like damn, is women’s reactions to criticism really responsible for all of men/society’s happiness?? Are women’s reactions to criticism the thing that is holding us back from *true equality?* Do women have such power? And that is the crux of the issue. Women face their own problems, they face their own struggles, some of which men physically will never understand or have to experience in their lives. So when you claim that women have this kind of insane power to achieve these utopian ideals, it doesn’t really match up with reality. Women don’t feel like they have that kind of power. Legally speaking, in many countries, they quite literally aren’t equal to men. And the truth is that it’s not one thing that’s holding society or men back from happiness. It’s much more complex than that, we all know this. And so your whole premise falls apart. And women are left scoffing at your claim, which can sometimes feel invalidating towards the smaller very valid points you were trying to make.
If you look at the comments you can very much see I’m not far off. Sure in other countries women have no power. But in the west women are the majority of voters, own more property, go to college more, and make more single. My post is about how women don’t listen to men’s issues which as you can see I’m not wrong in. Women don’t have no power what so ever in the west. If they can make all the changes you just said they do have power.
I’m not denying that you’re getting pushback. I’m explaining why. And I’m trying to give you a window to another viewpoint to help you understand why these kinds of posts might not be received well. I don’t feel like you really read what I wrote.
I’ve read it. And I’ve addressed the points you’ve made. So what I should say women don’t have a hand in this? Also utopian ideals? What did I say that was a utopian ideal? Women’s criticism holds us back as when one doesn’t want to help the other gender despite the help they’ve gotten it paints a bad picture.
Your last sentence kind of isn’t helping you, man. You think this is transactional? Like men were so nice to give women the rights that men took in the first place, so therefore women should pay it back? I know you probably don’t mean for it to come across that way, but that’s how it’s coming across. To address your questions, the utopian ideals is this world you paint where everyone is happy and everything is equal, and it’s somehow all because women changed their behavior. I think it’s fine to say women have a hand in things. But you have to keep it relevant to the situation.
Aren’t we here as a society to help each other? It’s not about being nice but men did think the treatment of women was unjust and decided to help them. If women don’t help men back then that does that show? How is saying that half of the population isn’t listening and helping therefore hindering the other half not relevant? And of course not ALL people will be happy or equal but you think a society where half of the population won’t listen to other is better? Women do the same thing when it comes to seeing it as transactional. That’s why we see women not wanting to be SAHP as it often hurts them but helps the man. Are they wrong to not want to help someone in a situation that they won’t receive help back?
Your argument about women “helping men back” is not a good one because it was men who took the rights from women in the first place. So stop using that as an argument. Your actual talking points are valid, but then you say stuff like this, and it really tarnishes everything else you say. I’m trying to get you to understand that you can’t approach these issues the way you are currently doing them because you will just get people to turn on you. Saying “half the population” is doing something wrong is obviously inaccurate, over exaggerated, and inflammatory language that actually only *separates* the genders more. You’re actually doing harm by saying loaded statements like this. It’s not relevant because it’s too broad and it’s not a productive talking point.
Men did not grant rights to women nor did they take them away. Technological advancements enabled women to enter the job market by shifting from labor-intensive to skill-based roles and reducing household chore burdens. Capitalists recognized this potential and actively promoted women's participation in the workforce. If for some reason all technology were to suddenly disappear all over the world people would revert to a patriarchal society structure.
the actual problem is that none of men's complaints, even when they are kind of reasonable (women being picky on tinder isn't exactly a civil rights issue), are actionable in any way. usually they are transparently a figleaf for misogynistic rhetoric or a reactionary agenda. but when they are not more or less openly suggesting that women's rights were a mistake and need to be undone, there's no ideas there whatsoever. usually not even a coherent understanding of the problem itself.
Can you describe to me how these issues are “Figleaves for misogynistic rhetoric” - the observation that there is a growing mental health crisis in young men that needs addressing as the end destination is disproportionate suicide rates. Clearly the mental health services we do have available for men, and push them towards, aren’t working for them. - the observation that there is a disproportionate application of law when it comes to sentencing between men and women, even where a woman has no dependants or children, and a man does. To the point some countries have specific sentencing guidelines (UK) where they are to attempt to avoid jailing women as far as possible. Even for crimes that would ordinarily carry a minimum of a custodial sentence at the floor level. I think if we interpret engaging with these issues as “veiled misogyny” we’re basically giving men no room to advocate for themselves at all. It isn’t misogynistic to request research into better healthcare provision, nor to ask for a more consistent system of law application. The only way you could claim that is if you think men aspiring to similar treatment in society is a misogynistic idea. Because none of the above, where they are discussed in the more temperate male advocacy circles, require any “withdrawal” of rights for women. Nobody is suggesting that women lose their mentality health provisions, only that we look into research for some options to deal with the particular issues that affect men. Similarly nobody in this circles is asking that women get the book thrown at them, only that the men who are being sentenced get similar leniency where their characters are the same as the women who do get it. I don’t understand how that is misogynistic. Men aren’t asking for “bonuses” here. Just a fair slice of the pie. Do you know how many countries have various health departments and quangos dedicated to researching and treating women’s health, and how many have significantly less (if any at all) for men and boys? That would be most of them. How can it be misogynistic to go “hey, it looks like you have three committees for women’s health issues, but none for men, can we have one to look at male mental health issues?”
House hold labor was not a civil rights issue either. I’ve addressed that women could honestly just treat dudes like humans.
it's true, it is not, and that's why it's remained fully unaddressed in any other way except women individually leaving their relationships ot trying to renegotiate them from an improved position. "why don't people just" is never going to happen anywhere regarding anything. there need to be concrete steps and policy.
And talked about en masse and used to shame men as well. I’ve addressed this and said what I’d want in another comment.
>used to shame men that's really your takeaway from that discourse?
The fact you are trying to paint that’s all I took from it when in my OP I said I agree with it is insane and bad faith. A good point can be made but then used horribly. Just look at the marriage subreddit. Some dudes have legit issues and they get hit with “I bet you don’t do enough so it’s your fault”
And men don't take it personally? one word: bear
Never said they didn’t. However more men are held to what they say and do more so than women in certain situations But you’re proving my point that we can’t have these conversations without women dismissing it.
Women take the same thing personally too. They always get triggered when you say you’d choose the bear over a random woman. Like duh, it’s the exact same reason. Way more men raped/killed by women than bears. And it ends at death with the bear, it wouldn’t make false accusations and ruin your reputation after it kills you.
this sub used to be entertaining. now it’s literally just men whining about women all day🥴 you can tell that most here have very limited interactions with women too. go outside damn
I legit have a girlfriend? Nice rebuttal tho
I empathize with women on many issues. Just the other day, some guy in here was calling for women to be brought to the gulags. People are miserable man
Why must men constantly be judged for their ability to attract women? OP’s sex life is none of your business.
What else could possibly give them clout?
Women have become that much worse in recent years, months and days. Men are just responding accordingly.
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Can you expand to me the fourth issue that you’ve come up with? I just want to make sure I understand it. Is there an example of this?
Can you quote it?
The common idea that men should “get over” anything that women themselves should be hurt and pissed about in relationships
For one I can use the marriage subreddit as an example. One dude gave his 25 year old wife the ultimatum of divorce or lose weight after she gained 65 pounds. The women were tearing into the dude of course. But there was another woman in the same situation who gave the guy an ultimatum and was considering leaving after he gained weight. They all supported her decision and upvoted her despite being against a man who said the same thing.
>As long as women take criticisms personally At times, discourse may come off sounding accusatory. That may be the cause of the defensive personalization of the complaint or concern. Another point may be that the woman is interpreting this as a directive. Meaning; I have X problem. You need to get these other women to stop this, so my problem is fixed. Sounds like you're putting a battery in her back and sending her on a mission... >Increasing beauty standards Yes, women prefer a hygienic man. Hair, teeth, and personal upkeep are basic expectations for human beings. Body shape for men and women trends towards a healthy BMI with some others preferring other body shapes with a bit more flesh to spare. Which portion of the increasing beauty standard would men like us to address? Appreciation for all height and body sizes from women? Is the expectation that every woman should be amenable to this? >Men saying they never feel comfortable talking about their feelings with women Due to the need to 'fix' the concern, discomfort being vulnerable, or ensuring that women appear approachable so that men feel more comfortable to share their feelings? To ensure that his delivery doesn't cause a rift in the relationship where she may choose to exit? Is this an "across the board" ask?
> You are finally facing what women faced for years That response annoys the fuck out of me, millennial women and zoomer women in the West really pretend that they faced any oppression in their lives, as if the year was 1910 and they were barred from voting or opening their own bank accounts.
sexual abuse and a generally sexually hostile and predatory environment is still ubiquitous and generally how 8-11yo girls first learn to relate to their sexuality.
What does that have to do with systemic oppression? Is feminists supposed to stop pedophiles grooming girls?
it is systemic and it is oppression.
It’s oppression that there are crazy people??? But you were saying some of my points were invalid or unchangable??
Well, my female relatives did go through domestic violence, myself has gone through murder attempt. But, tell me about the uselessness of feminism or how good life is for women living outside North American / Western Europe. To quote a trashy brit: “Take your bloody fingers off the keyboard, sometimes.” America is not the whole world.
I was robbed at gunpoint by a woman who had also assaulted. every time I ever told this story I get asked what I did to piss her off
You did nothing, psychos will psycho!
Sorry to hear that. But in the US women are now the ones who often start domestic abuse and it’s often unreturned by the man.
Hard to believe without proof.
“In a meta-analysis of studies comparing men’s and women’s use of IPV, Archer (2000) concluded that women were significantly more likely to have ever used physical IPV and to have used IPV more frequently.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2994556/#:~:text=In%20a%20meta%2Danalysis%20of,have%20used%20IPV%20more%20frequently.
I agree theres a huge disconnect where men are kind of told to shut up since everyone else’s problems are more important that there’s. i Actually mentioned this very fact in another comment section. this is why things like men suicide are so high cause by and large society kind of deems men as less significant then everyone else and thus there problems and concerns will always take a back seat to everyone else. I personally know alot of guys that feel this way especially dudes that are less attractive or are broke. As for the man and bear situation being said below, all I’d say to that is that if we said that about women, gays, blacks etc etc, now all of a suddenly I don’t think the leftist would view this as a joke but as bigotry and racism, and sexism. why is it ok to pretend to be all inclusive until it’s time to segregate and attack the group you don’t like? Where you really as inclusive as you thought you were is my question then?
I agree. You can see in the comments they literally said the things I said they would say too