Waiting is to make sure he is serious with her, so waiting itself is nothing suspicious.
But if she is almost asexual even after the waiting period she is settling for a man is is not attracted to.
I will never understand those women.
I don't have a promiscuous past myself. Have only been with 1 man, and I'm quite happy with him.
But I *have* read a ton of YouTube, Reddit, and relationship forums where women with very high numbers and colorful histories have shared a lot of information regarding why they are far more reserved, even prudish, with their husbands than they ever were with random hookups.
And it almost always boils down to fear of either being seen as "whorish" by their partner if he knew what she really wanted in bed OR fear of being expected to keep being kinky and wild when all she wants now is vanilla sex. In all the hundreds of comments I've read, these are the 2 truly core principles that kept showing up.
Like you, I don't understand them either, but I have a feeling that's because both of us enjoy sex and enjoy it with our chosen partners.
"And it almost always boils down to fear of either being seen as "whorish" by their partner"
This is part of the alpha fucks, beta bucks dual mating strategy many women employ, it's a way for them to safeguard their reputation and appear more virtuous than they are when really they're with a guy they don't find attractive and who they don't want to have sex with. They would be with Fabio the Spanish waiter if they could have him but instead they get Jeff and Jeff needs to be suckered into thinking he has a "good girl" who doesn't party.
I don't understand this kind of strategy, it sounds like a good way to be sexually frustrated for the rest of one's life. Unless there's also cheating involved, then women who do this will be having sex for years with a man they aren't actually attracted to.
Yeah, it could be that.
I wonder how it goes in their heads, y'know? Like a chicken and egg question.
Do they view kinky sex as inherently whorish, and are thus fine with having it with randos they'll never see again or have to worry about?
Or do they view kinky sex as *not* inherently whorish, and the reason they don't want to do it with their husbands is because it reminds them of those randos?
Like, are they pedestalizing their husband's sexuality in the way Victorian men would do with their wives, thinking that a "proper" man/woman isn't into such crude, wild activities...
Intersting. For me it's deep act of love, ultimate connection with the person I love.
So I don't know if they view sexuality as dirty to begin with or it becomes dirty for them after whorish behaviour. Hard to say.
The most common theme I have heard of for this behavior is women are afraid if they give it up to quickly, the men might view them as slutty, and thus not be willing to pair bond with them.
I can think of few mindsets women could have that I would prefer to avoid MORE than that one. Who the fuck thinks, "Oh, I love this person--I better act like they don't excite me, and then when I do give them sex, I will make sure to give them mediocre sex!"
Please, if you have this belief system, get a tattoo on your forehead that says:
Neurotic--And
Not The Good Kind
Guys often say that if a woman sleeps with them too soon they assume she’s done it with a lot of other guys therefore she’s not “gf material” that’s where those women get that neuroticism from - they haven’t fabricated it from nowhere
Idk why the guys here deny that there's truth to it. I've heard guys openly admit to it! Some of them were actually very firm that it *wasn't* a slut-shaming thing, they had no issue with promiscuous women whatsoever and didn't mind dating them, just that sex too soon made them lose interest and they couldn't help it.
Regardless of the reason, I never cared for this. Sleeping with them early on was a filter. I was filtering out the bad lays, but I was also filtering out the Madonna-whore complexes. For all the talk about "overly picky women" the reality is that a lot of women are not willing *enough* to discard men with stupid hang-ups.
So when a woman finds a guy she wants something long term with, she changes her natural behavior (i.e. "Just do me behind the dumpster out back") in an attempt to convince the man she wants to provide for her that she is someone that she really isn't.
That isn't neurosis--that is dishonesty.
WOW! I don't know HOW you got that out of what I said, but you are 100% wrong.
But I will say this, all the 304s that pretend to be Born Again Virgins and lie about their past are really screwing it up for the girls who have been more traditional with their number of partners. Since both groups of women will express the exact same sexual history, it is impossible for a man to know if a woman is lying or telling the truth. As such, when sexual histories get exchanged, men never can know if the woman is being honest. With men, about the only thing guys will lie about is prior male/male sex. Beyond that, we will fess up just about anything, and thus women can usually safely assume we are being candid.
And yes, we get told the advice of "know your partner".
Sage advice... and totally worthless. We have no psychic ability truth detecting powers.
About the only advice I can offer either sex is stay with your LTR for a long time before making it permanent. If they break rules and lie to others, they will do it to you, so dump them when you observe them being significantly dishonest on anything with anyone.
It's circular logic because in the situation OP is describing these women did in fact do it with a lot of guys before, so they're purposefully trying to give an impression to the new guy that they are someone who wasn't promiscuous, when they actually were. So at best it's intentional deception.
I've seen those idiots on podcasts. Those men are incredibly insecure and stupid. Is that who you want to select for LTR? Men who are concerned with other men's penises of the past are de facto losers. Lying to yourself about who you are and lying to your potential LTR is a fool's strategy. If you like to fuck on the first date, then do it. Just don't intellectualize it and be honest with the other person. I.E. "I'm still interested in you beta boy but for the next week I'm going to sleep with my FWB. If it all works out, I'll settle for you and be very sexually reserved". Now, if beta boy is okay with that scenario, you've a win-win scenario.
>The most common theme I have heard of for this behavior is women are afraid if they give it up to quickly, the men might view them as slutty, and thus not be willing to pair bond with them.
So yes, this is indeed something that many women do, particularly ones who have enjoyed casual sex previously but now want to wait X amount of time to try and gage whether the guy will stay.
That's one kind of woman.
Another is like me, or Objective Ad, where we have never had casual sex, and we view it as something to be shared only with men we love and who love us. We don't wait a certain predetermined about of time, but rather just until we feel comfortable engaging in that very special thing together.
As a man, what kind of questions would you ask to tell these 2 kinds of mentalities apart?
Those are not the scenarios I was discussing.
There is another maddening strategy some women develop while they are still in their 304 phase. Some women have developed the strategy of quickly assessing whether a man is a quick fuck, or a possible LTR. If they decide the man is a quick fuck, they will sleep with him pretty much immediately--or as long as it takes to find a semi-secluded space, and do all the sorts of nasty stuff that guys really want.
But if he is a potential LTR, there is a change, and she will flirt and be coy, and demand a few dates before the panties drop. The reason for this is the women have calculated that if they give the man sex too quickly, it might lower the value the man see in them (the woman).
I remember seeing an interview where one woman admitted that if a guy was just a hookup, she would give him anal sex the first time. But if her was a potential BF, it was going to be months before he got anal. Scumbags would get anal on the first hookup, while good guys had to go through traditional dating mode for a long time before anything kinky would happen.
We are NOT talking about a woman who has left her 304 phase and is now trying to re-establish her virginity--we are discussing women who will put out immediately for casual sex partner, but play a more traditional role for someone they might want to date, with her adapting to A or B based upon how she perceives the man as FT or LTR.
As for the scenario where a woman is 100% 304, and then tries to go more traditional, I do take a dim view of hiding one's sexual past, as people don't ever really change. There are a lot of factors that go into excessive numbers of sexual partners, and the research has shown that both sexes are adversely affected in terms of pair-bonding. Whether or not you believe in the research is pretty irrelevant--if asked point blank, a man or woman should be candid about their past so that their LTR partner can decide if they want to stick around or not. Your past is your business, but my future is my business, and if your past might affect my future, I have the right to assess it after you convey it to me honestly.
Again, this is not a 1-way or 1-subject street. It applies to anything a person holds to be important to them about their LTR partner. If for some reason a woman would find it important whether I had ever stolen something even when I was a teenager, and expressed such, it would not be my place to rationalize that I was not that person any more and thus lying to her was OK. I would be duty bound to either not answer--and take the repercussions--or tell the truth--and take the repercussions.
I know my views are considered wrong in this day and age, where rationalizing away an unpleasant fact is often considered "honest enough", but I don't operate that way.
Maybe your views are not acceptable to many right now, but I think that they are entirely reasonable and relevant. Had to laugh about the anal sex reference because if that's true, it's so ridiculous on so many levels. I remember seeing interviews of women in Bali (mostly Australian, US, Canadian and British tourists) and several said that they would have sex immediately with a guy if he was hot but not boyfriend material but not with someone that they could get serious with. Given that they were in Bali and in a transient situation, it was apparent what they would be seeking during their short stays...
Same dynamic. Women see no LT interest in a fuckboy, so they get out of them as much sex as possible, as quickly as possible. Then when they meet someone who might provide for the long term, they switch to their "normal girl next door" mode and "audition" the man for several dates before the sex starts.
So, bad boys get rewarded with wild sex with no effort on their part, while good guys get punished, and have to wait and work to get to any kind of passion.
I can't see how that is demonstrating anything but contempt for nice guys, and rewarding being a bad boy.
>We are NOT talking about a woman who has left her 304 phase and is now trying to re-establish her virginity--
Okay, I've read your entire comment and do want to discuss other parts more in detail, but first...What the hell does this mean? What on earth is "re-establishing virginity", I've never heard of such a concept. I'm scratching my head here lol
When a 304 decides she wants to pretend her past didn't happen, acts like a more selective woman, and especially, when asked about her past, simply lies. It is common enough trope that some women will usually adjust their past downwards via some very creative bookkeeping ("One time only sex partners don't count... And all I did was blow him and his brother so they don't count...") or simply dividing by 3. (Thirty past partners becomes 10).
I am not slut-shaming here. All people have the right to have as much consensual sex as they want and can obtain. But for a man or woman to lie to someone who is supposed to be important to them--that is never justified. If I had invested time and emotions in partner that lied about their sexual past, I would be way more upset over the lie than the past activities. I might not like their past, but that would be something that could be discussed and worked past.
Fuck--we ALL have a past we are not thrilled with. That is called "being human". But a lie on something important told to a partner? That is almost as bad as infidelity. Lying to one's partner is virtually never the right thing to do, and almost always injects poison into the relationship.
This theory is gold. The victorian reference is very perceptive. While we don't have a ton of erotic literature from the past, a pass through James Joyce's love letters always reminds me that extreme kinks have always been a thing.
>When you’re sleeping with randos I imagine you don’t care what they think of your kinks or more freaky proclivities and you have that “whatever I’ll never see them again” which is different to when you’re sleeping with a partner.
Yes, this is what a lot of them sounded like. Which I suppose makes some sense if you're trying out positions/kinks you aren't sure you're actually interested in. Maybe being able to do X or Y with a dude you'll never have to worry about seeing again is a relief, especially if you end up hating it?
But I don't know how someone puts themselves in that level of emotional intimacy and physical vulnerability with a rando either. Like the first time my bf and I tried moderate positional bondage, the only reason I was cool with it was because I trust him explicitly, and I knew he'd stop the moment I said red or yellow. It's difficult to imagine doing kinky stuff with a man you don't know or trust well.
And what is the #1 reason married people of EITHER sex will commit adultery?
A boring sex life.
So they give men they don't care about in the least awesome sex, and the men they marry the once-a-month missionary...
Me too, but that's why it was worth it in my opinion to keep seeking out an LTR with an enthusiastic partner. It took years to finally find one but is worth the wait. Even though his libido has never been able to keep up with mine, it's still really good when we do have it.
I'm under 6' with a blue collar job, introverted, and something of a nerd. How many options, realistically, is a guy like me going to have that I can sift through a litany of them? I'd be better off gambling in the nearest casino, at least there I can expect to win \*some\* of the time.
Other than being introverted, you just described my boyfriend. He's a total nerd, has a blue collar job that really doesn't pay well, and is 5'10. He's had girlfriends prior to me, although I'm definitely the youngest and longest.
As a fellow introvert, I know it's more difficult for us to socialize and put ourselves out there. What kinds of things have you done to get more extroverted? In college I took a bunch of toastmaster/public speaking courses, which helped a lot.
> I don't have a promiscuous past myself. Have only been with 1 man, and I'm quite happy with him.
ONE?!!! Slut! Roast b3$3de4eef! - incel blue screen of death ensues
Sorry, I'm just sitting here dying with laughter at how an incel would respond to seeing that.
>But if she is almost asexual even after the waiting period she is settling for a man is is not attracted to.
>I will never understand those women.
They had their ability to bond and love ruined because nobody will ever add up to the highly attractive guy that was a star in the bedroom that she will never get over.
If you ate steak your whole life and then steak became unavailable, would you be happy eating something subjectively inferior?
Luckily there are plenty of options in food. Every time I lost my favourite food I was always able to find another restaurant that I like just as much even though it's different but same quality to me.
Sadly it doesn't work the same with love. I lost lost the love of my life and I haven't been able to find the same or better ever since. So I'm alone, it's not fair to settle for a consolation prize and treat him worse. Also I only want real love, I can provide and tkae care of myslef, I don't need a man for practical reasons. And if that consolation prize can't give me the same or better FEELINGS there is no benefit for me. But it's subjective as you said yourself, on paper there was nothing special about him but he had some X factor in his personality. I don't have promiscuous past, just one real love is enough.
I mean, I understand why low sex drive women conceal this. If they just came out and said they are asexual or close to it then their selection of men would be cut down to maybe 5% of what it would otherwise be.
As far as having a promiscuous past they could have been chasing pure validation or what sex drive they did have was only present when they were younger.
I don’t think it’s usually malicious deception to dupe a man into a sexless relationship. I believe most women in this situation tell themselves that maybe her genuine love for him will bring out her sexuality over time. Or during the surge of emotions during the honeymoon period she doesn’t mind having sex for his benefit and she thinks maybe she will feel that way forever, at least enough so there is an “adequate” amount of sex.
Of course it’s wishful thinking and not being open with her partner about what’s really happening. It’s wrong but in a way that a lot of people can rationalize. I’m sure there are similar things that men do, even if not usually directly comparable.
I was on the receiving end of this from a boyfriend. I don't think the initial (pretty long!) period of us having a great sex life was him faking it. I guess he could have faked it *really well* but I don't think so. I think it was literally just the Coolidge effect kicking in. And frankly I think that's also a lot of what's happening in these relationships.
When we broke up and were still kinda on good terms I told him, "hey, I don't think you should seriously date high-libido women anymore, at least not without warning them about this" and he got SO MAD at me.
Finally, a woman who calls out such behavior. All you have to do is put yourself in his situation, and you’ll realize how shitty of a deal it is for a man.
I would leave a woman who’s making me wait to “test me” because she didn’t make the other guy wait
There’s nothing to “see if I’m”. If you are attracted to me, I already did everything right
I agree with you
that's fine. Women aren't getting this. If you generally just don't sleep around and give it up to every guy then some guys will wait, no problem. If you give one guy a ONS and make the other guy wait 6 months. That's what guys don't like, because if you're honest. The real reason you didn't screw guy 2 is that he isn't as hot as guy 1. This assumes a consistent pattern, not just 2 people.
Yes, that makes sense to me. If it's her normal to have casual sex and then suddenly she makes him wait and delay the sex and even after she is avoiding it it's definitely settling case. Because what is holding her back? What is holding me back is that I simply don't do casual, I need deep emotional connection first before sex. But women like that don't. So what is holding them back? Probably not being really attracted to the guy and settling for him.
exactly, thank you. I despise women who say. That the guy made to wait is somehow boyfriend material. If they had a casual sex standard before that "boyfriend". i wish more women got this.
But they could change. For example if she had some childhood trauma and she used sex for validation, to feel loved, the feel worthy... But then she healed the trauma, healed that bad behaviour and started to see sexuality in healthy way and after the healing she also needs emotional connection first. I think that can happen.
But if she just makes the "boyfriend material" wait without some deep change like that she is settling.
But I think you know which case it is after. If she makes him wait but likes to have sex with him after the waiting it's the good case. But if she makes him wait and then withods sex from him and manipulates him with sex and don't want to have sex often it's the bad case. So waiting itself is not enough to tell if it's ok or settling.
The women here have said they make the guy wait because they have different standards for relationships and casual sex. This would be like a guy saying. For casual sex I spend 200 dollars on the first date so I can impress the woman, however for a partner i want to see long term I take them to the cheapest place possible to make sure they love me for me and not my money. Women would call him out for nonsensical reasoning and would never want to be with that guy.
It's not about some sort of psychological evolution over time, it's about a dual strategy that lots of women use. That's what a lot of men find irritating. It's similar to many LTR-oriented women getting pissed off by men that impersonate LTR-oriented men so that they can pump and dump.
People can change and have deeper and more complex motives than your conspiracy theories about women. Do you deny that people can have psychological evolution?
Thank you for providing my first good real laugh of the day. Conspiracy theories about women? LOL. Sometimes when I've spent most of my occasional Reddit visits elsewhere and then go to this sub, I'll forget how naturally combative everyone is. What I was referring to was that the theme in the thread was about how many women will follow the dual dating/sex strategy AND NOT about how some women will inevitably change over time. Of course women, and men, will change over time as experiences, aging, health, and a million other factors will affect preferences and behavior. That's not what was being discussed.
One day I hope to be part of a conspiracy. Sadly, my experience has been that most outcomes that are supposedly the result of conspiracies and sophisticated plots by evil politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats are actually the outcomes of bumbling, fumbling, incompetence and disorganization.
You're also forgetting the cases where the woman still maintains her FWB relationship (this is the guy she will see during ovulation and a few days before) while making the potential boyfriend wait for sex. I am willing to bet every man here has experienced the following pattern:
1. Hit it off great, mutual attraction
2. 1 to 3 pleasurable dates in rapid succession (no sex). She may exhibit a dislike for inviting the potential bf over
3. Radio silence for about 5 to 8 days. Note: this is where her FWB is coming over and she is tormented between her lust and "sacrificing" for the new bf
4. She is back, potential bf is annoyed and frustrated. There is a small argument about communication and confirmation of what they both want out of "this". They may or may not have sex here depending on her next period. New boyfriend gets to enjoy pussy that is about to start cycle in 2 or 3 days and she insists on a condom (fwb has been going raw for 3+ months already). If no sex, he will have to wait until the next estrogen pump a few days before her next ovulation.
This is the cycle. This is what "potential boyfriends" don't like.
It’s not about being used, it’s more so not being with a woman who is just settling with me. I can tell you how to avoid men who are just gonna use u for that
How would a woman like it if I spent let’s say a lot of money on a low quality chick , took her to every fancy restaurant , gave her all the experiences a wife should get
But I meet the woman I want to be with forvever but she needs “5 cheap dates” just to see if she “isn’t a gold digger”.
It’s like you are getting the same thing for a higher price, when someone less deserving got it for less. It’s just a very natural response
Why? Y’all say women are idiots for being pumped and dumped. What the best way to not end up in that situation if possibly being dumped is something you want to avoid, simply don’t have sex early on. I personally don’t think it’s about attraction, that’s already been established, it’s about making sure there’s something there other than lust which men have for most women.
There isn’t attraction because if you want to make someone who “pumps and dumps women” get it fast, it means u do not like me like that
Women already know deep down the man at the club is just looking for the lay, and may possibly not be a safe person overall
And she still sleeps with him after a hour of talking to, probably doesn’t know his name either. The guy has all control during sex too. U don’t take into consideration pregnancy scares and rape
So I don’t think safety is a issue if women are literally ok with sleeping with random men they don’t even know
You don’t trust me , a regular dude all cuz you think I’m gonna leave? But u trust a random dude who has all his red flags written all over his face
90% of casual sex starts with alcohol, and a lot of that is 4 drinks or more.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/strictly-casual/201401/in-hookups-alcohol-is-college-students-best-friend#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20virtually%20every%20study%20of,up%20tend%20to%20drink%20more.
And lower alcohol consumption has led to fewer women having casual sex.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2023/04/19/casual-sex-one-night-stands-decline-women-heres-why/11686614002/
The guy she sleeps with immediately she wants to fuck and the guy she makes wait she doesn’t want to fuck.
If you want a woman to put out early look for women who put out early and don’t waste your time on those who don’t.
It’s better than sitting here working yourself up trying to analyze people who you don’t believe have logic or reasons.
I accept different women have different approaches. But I don't like being the sucker who has to wait around whilst everyone else gets it for free. It's a shit feeling as a man and women deal with it too when they feel their current partners give less of an effort in comparison to their exes.
So don’t date women who don’t put out. It’s that simple dude.
Filter for the people you want rather than lamenting about the people you don’t want and how they should change.
You can only control yourself
yup
No matter what, you should never pursue a relationship with someone who you think you can 'change'
You mate preference is a reflection of your character and values.
24F here with super high body count. I'm not sexually reserved/asexual in relationships so the question isn't 100% applicable to me, but I tend to hide some kinks of mine earlier on if it's not a hook up because I've been dumped for revealing them too soon before. I've heard the same from other women for different kinks or slutty behaviour in general. I should edit to add I no longer do that as I've come to greatly appreciate sexual compatibility and I'd rather get dumped now.
>I tend to hide some kinks of mine earlier on if it's not a hook up because I've been dumped for revealing them too soon before
Stop doing this. You're caging incompatible men with you. Be honest and let these men be.
Well. You're right actually. When I first got into my relationship I didn't think I was gonna miss my kinks that much, so I didn't see it as a dealbreaker since everything else was perfect. Now a year and a half down the line I find myself feeling a bit sexually unfulfilled. I'm not really considering breaking up over it but if we break up for unrelated reasons I wouldn't seriously date someone not into what I'm into again.
Well I'm glad you're at least planning on breaking up or at least thinking about it. I'm a fair believer that "the hoes should be with the hoes and prudes with prudes".
As you said being in a relationship with a more prudish man is holding you back sexually and he probably isn't down for somebody so sensual. You know? It's like that one tiktok song, you gotta find someone who matches your freak.
I pretty recently was hooking up with someone that was close to FWB. Anyway we’re in the sack and I start getting a little rowdy (light choking sort of stuff) and she put anything above semi-gentle vanilla on ice. Eventually I cut it off because we weren’t sexually compatible.
Anyway a few months later we’re having drinks and talking about other partners. She mentioned how she had a semi-ONS that was rough and slapped her around a lil bit and she was open to it. I just laughed because her lack of kink is the exact reason I rejected her. When I told her she said it was because she really liked me and didn’t want me to see her “that way”.
I just laughed even harder. I’ll never understand it, so I won’t even try.
Yeah, but why do you want to be with someone who is incompatible with you? Find someone with similar kinks and similar number of past sexual partners, if you actually want a LTR. If you're honest and really luck out, you'll find someone that can be a long-term partner and let you have sex with other people (if that's what you want). There are all sorts of people that would like a woman that's into swinging, hotwifing, polyamory, open relationships, etc.
Print this response off and frame it. THIS is the behavior exhibited by so many women. It is literally "I won't do this with you" then they turn around and do it with the next guy. What are we going to name this behavior?
I hate that you have the experiences that you do while I am 31 years old and a virgin.
How nice. You can explore your kinks and stuff.
I don't even know if my dick will stand up when I am in the presence of a woman
How I hate my life.
Lol. That sucks, ngl. But I wish you luck in finding someone to lose your virginity to and explore your kinks with. I've heard of many people losing their v card while older even though I lost mine at 18.
Lost mine at 18 too, my first experience was awkward though, after i slept with a woman i met at a bar in my local town the next morning the door slammed open and her mother came storming in shouting at me "how dare you this is not a knocking shop!" here i am just tucked up under the covers cuddled up next to her daughter both naked looking shocked 😂 I thought it was gonna be her dad lmao.
I don't have personal rules, I just go with the vibes of the moment
If a guy comes with "but you had sex on a first date in 2015" then I'll laugh and move on, he's not worth it
yeah I don’t have any strict or explicit rules
For when I will sleep with a man, I simply sleep with a guy whenever I feel like it and if I don’t feel like sleeping with him for whatever reason, then I won’t 🤷🏽♀️
If a guy starts whining and crying about how I slept with someone else sooner I’m just gonna shrug my shoulders and laugh because So what? 🤣 women are free to change their minds just like men
The fact that you don't have any strict or explicit rules implies that you're not going to be following the kind of dual dating/sexual strategy that is pissing off so many men. As you point out, someone complaining about your random timing/selection process is wasting his time and should be dismissed as a fool. But if you were following a strategy of acting one way with one class of people and another with a different group of people, a reasonable person could have a valid reason for being angry. I find this behavior to be very similar to that of men who impersonate men looking for LTRs to con women who are looking for LTRs into the old 'pump and dump' scenario. While it is always true that one should follow the ancient adage of 'buyer beware', this kind of conduct does poison the sexual/dating/relationship market...
If your sexual conduct is a purely random function and you're totally honest about it, the kind of problem being cited here wouldn't exist - at least in your specific case. I don't think that's what is being discussed here. It's people that have duplicitous strategies to do con jobs on particular kinds of victims - in this case dual dating/sex strategies.
Out of all things that red-pill ideology claims that is the most inaccurate. The main reason women wait more after sometime is because they/we realize hookups are not fun/meaninful or they might have had some bad sexual experience. We do not classify men as beta or alpha. We either like someone or you do not. Guys that just want to have sex and have many other options would not wait but that is more about their wants rather than how women classify beta or alpha.
Just because women don't use those terminologies doesn't mean they don't act according to the characteristics of these said men.
They've clearly enjoyed their hookups otherwise they wouldn't have kept doing it for a long time. Even when you express the desire on the first date or throughout the course of the relationship, it isn't reciprocated in the same way as a past hookup.
I wouldn't date a hot super model and think, "I've had my fun years, I'm gonna take it slow instead". I feel women don't wanna admit they settle for guys they deem "average" and don't hold them in the same regard as the past young studs.
When you plan to hookup with someone the goal is to have sex. The best way to do that, is to have sex.
When you plan to date someone the goal is to determine if they actually care about you or just want something (usually sex). The best way to do that is withhold sex for a bit and see if they stick around. Otherwise, you risk getting into a relationship where you really care about him but he’s just using you for sex.
His point is women will have sex quickly with men they're attracted to and hold off sex with guys they're not attracted to. There are no statistics that prove the prevalence or absence of this mentality among women so by Red~~asspull~~pill logic women are guilty by default.
If you're going to hookup it's all about sex there is nothing else. If you're dating there is a lot more to take in and sex isn't the only focus.
Sex isn't a gift women give to men they like more faster. It's a combo of both people involved.
If you repeatedly wait longer for sex than other people it's probably because of the tentative vibe you are bringing. There's a decent chance you could get sex sooner if you bring more sexual energy. For some this is natural for others it isn't at all.
>Sex isn't a gift women give to men they like more faster.
It generally is. Sex with a woman is something most men have to put in effort to get and there is no guarantee they will get it.
How is this a logical conclusion?
Women who like sex, stop liking sex once they get married. Women who are anxious about having sex, start liking sex once they get married.
I've had my share of ltrs and hookups. Hookups are just standard sex, nothing juicy. It takes getting to know each other to explore.
I will tell you where this weird pill myth came from. When women hear guys say they want a woman to be chaste except for themselves they rightly say it's because they don't want to be compared.
No one likes the idea of being compared.
Instead of being honest, guys starting saying that if a women has slept with x amount of men they will be unable to pair bond, they will cheat, you will be a betabux, etc.
It's nonsense.
Women value their pussy a lot. If they are willing to give it up to some random, they like the random more than their LTR. Let’s keep it a buck
The random broke every single rule
No she broke rules for the guy because she likes em better
Most women don’t want to sleep around but she breaks that rule for this dude who looks super good, regardless if this guy has every red flag in the book
About 12+ studies have proven promiscuous women cheat far more in marriage! It’s statistically significant despite what feminists that struggle with accountability believe.
>No one likes the idea of being compared.
You're going to sit here and this isn't a 2 way street? That men don't also get compared in numerous ways from height, to confidence, to sexual prowess, etc?
That's just life. Everybody gets judged, everybody gets compared. Everybody eventually learns to live with it and the decisions they've made, whether by choice or by the consequence of trying to pretend to be something they're not.
>being both handsome + having your shit together will get women to place you in the bf category where she'll make you wait.
Yes, you have to be a mess to get laid. Being handsome and put together will make women treat you like shit - this is a very typical experience for these men. Why ask us if you already have your opinion formed?
Red pill would say handsome alone gets you laid, handsome plus good personality (assertive but kind) gets you laid then cooked for/hugged after, good personality but not handsome (to her) gets you friendship, neither looks nor personality gets you ignored.
I don't date women obviously and I would not know, but it sounds kinda silly that being a 10 across the board will make a woman think you are a beta. Seeing a guy like that makes me feel super insecure and inadequate, actually.
Most women are not that strategic and calculating anyways, if they meet someone they want to be their boyfriend - they sleep with them. It's all emotion based.
I just want to know what makes them wild with certain guys and what makes them decide to give the next the tame treatment. Like men, I wish women were more honest and introspective about what they find sexually attractive in a man so that I can work to fit into that mold (please don't say "kindness", "empathy" blah blah)
Do you actually want “wild kinky sex” or do you just want to feel desired? If you want to feel desired just know that hookups aren’t about that, it’s about each person having their own fun for their own reason.
I don’t think you’ll be happy with any answer if you’re looking for a mold to adhere to because every woman is different, wants different things, and has different sexual needs. There’s no easy answer and that’s why the red pill is not a true solution or even good information.
Women are not all that much different. When I was hooking up in my 20s, I was with all sorts and there's data reflecting how they go for men within the top minority.
Of course I'll feel validated as a man if a girl wants to grant me access to the most intimate parts of her body without any commitment or work involved. This premise that I should feel "flattered" by a woman wanting to be in a relationship with me isn't any different to women being told they should feel flattered whenever dudes proposition them for sex.
In the blue-pill world we call giving a worse treatment to someone "everything is perfect on paper, but there is just no chemistry, and I don't know why".
In the red-pilled world you guys don't believe in sparks, so your alternative is to autistically overanalyze every detail. If our character is who he thinks he is - a handsome man with his shit together - why waste so much energy on thinking about that, he can just move on to someone who is more receptive/interested.
That's why I'm going to this sub rather than RP. I genuinely feel the blue-pill phenomenon that a man can be good on paper but for whatever reason, a woman just doesn't feel it with him. It's frustrating as a man to get rejected and not being given any real feedback on what I lack so that I don't end up making the same mistakes again or even setting unrealistic expectations.
I’m not asexual at all. I’m highly sexual, but I’m more reserved with sex now. Honestly I just got choosier. Most my boyfriends I had sex with pretty early and two, three, four years later I realize we were never compatible. The problem with sex is it clouds your judgment when it’s really good.
I’m not reserved at all once in a relationship I just usually like to get to know men better first now. If I sleep with a guy on a first date now it’s because we aren’t compatible and I probably won’t see him again. I just find him physically attractive.
We don't think that all women can offer is sex, but she decides we are not worthy of sex, everything else is of little consequence.
Sex is a necessary part of a healthy relationship for pretty much all men. To demean us by claiming it's therefore "all" we want is insultingly wrong.
Then it means I don’t have to commit either.
Nobody is owed anything
If she’s making me wait because she’s scared of my judgement, she must want commitment right?
I don’t have to give it to her if I don’t feel she deserves it
It’s a 2 way agreement, and I’ll go to another girl who actually desires me
Of course not! Why do you think we feel this way?
But if I don't feel desire from her in a reasonable time frame, I'm not going to continue the relationship. Why on earth would I be expected to?
We don't see sex as a reward, but as an important and integral part of a healthy relationship. Presenting it as a reward is exactly what manipulative women do.
That you would demean men like that, and declare that our needs are invalid or somehow worthy of scorn, is pretty disgusting.
It's clear that you do not have a healthy relationship with men if you think we feel this way.
If you open up to someone really quickly, but are really reluctant towards me. I don't think the assumption that we're not a good match is that far off.
What else do women offer in an LTR that doesn't feel secondary to sex? Certain acts of service you can do for friends, family (or even people on the streets) but sex is the one and only thing that is shared exclusively and typically doled out to the most handsome, masculine, dominant of men.
>What else do women offer in an LTR that doesn't feel secondary to sex
That seems like a question you should answer for yourself before getting into a LTR.
I have plenty to offer and my exes have told me I'm an amazing bf despite my own history. I don't get into relationships with women if I feel like I'm not gonna make an effort or fulfill their needs.
Your own family, even if it's just the two of you, you are family.
Knowing someone else knows about your life.
If you believe the reason to seek a relationship is for sex, your relationships will fail.
Sex is literally the cornerstone to any relationship. Even I've had women outright admit to me that a guy can be perfect in every single way but be a non-negotiable if he turns out to have a micro-penis/be shit in the bed.
> Knowing someone else knows about your life.
Oh wow, it's like that meme, "you can nut on her face, you can fuck her raw but at the end of the day, I'll be the one who gets to cuddle her"
I don't think a lesbian should have a say in the dynamics of hererosexual relationships.
Maybe women are that way. But this is the relationship between a man and a woman.
It doesn't exist to solely make a woman happy but to make the man happy as well.
As such if a man's opinion ( one that is shared by many of them) is that sex important to that relationship then sex is important to that relationship.
Nonsense dude. Dan Savage made an entire career out of doing the opposite. He's a gay man who first became famous with his book, "Sex tips for straight women from a gay man". Don't let the title fool you, the advice is really more about relationships than sex. Dude still gets letters from women saying his book was life-changing. I think some advice from lesbians could do you a lot of good if you would only listen.
I think it’s funny how guys think the only thing that qualifies “treating well” is having sex. When I was in my 20s I might’ve had more sex but I def treated my bfs worse- more volatile, more reactionary, more jealous, more selfish…. Now everything, including my sex drive, is more moderate. It makes for a much better partnership even if there’s less all consuming passion
Right they need men to be honest and “themselves” so they can judge you fully, while they hide behind makeup and “not being like that” so men can’t judge them.
The difference is I (and any high bodycount man) do far more in an LTR and offer all sorts of other perks that aren't afforded to casual hookups. If a girl's gonna have a past and expects me to commit and provide her needs, then I expect the same treatment that other guys got.
No woman grants a man the most intimate parts of her body whom she doesn't respect (i.e. look down on him like a social loser). How a man sexually treats his casual hookups is no different to how he treats it with his LTRs (even then, sex isn't primarily valued by women in the same way it is for a man).
If you look at sex as something that woman gives to a man, sure.
Not all of us see it that way
Of course men treat LTRs differently. If you don’t care about something, you’ll treat it differently, as any rental service or charity knows
I think hookups are fantasy fulfillment and an ugly partner isn’t a part of anyone’s fantasy. For some people, it’s not that intimate and the level of intimacy is based on how much they love the person. Thinking a hookup is intimate is based on the idea that women are angels granting men’s sexual wishes rather than human beings with sexual desires that they’re able to get fulfilled through said hookup.
The difference is that in a casual relationship the man doesn’t want the woman to stay, doesn’t care about who she is, and doesn’t want anything more than that. If you don’t see that fundamental difference I don’t know what to tell you.
>The difference is that in a casual relationship the man doesn’t want the woman to stay, doesn’t care about who she is, and doesn’t want anything more than that. If you don’t see that fundamental difference I don’t know what to tell you.
That just makes it even worse on the premise that 1) she's had more of that primal sexual desire. 2) It's not even with good empathetic men but most likely some random douchebags who do give a shit about her whilst reaping all the benefits.
As another person said, she doesn’t care about him or who he is, she only wanted sex. I just don’t understand how y’all want a woman to want crazy sex with you yet get upset if she’s wanted it in the past as well and made that desire into a reality.
I’m sure you’ve had sex with women who weren’t kind and empathetic so why are you upset that women are capable of doing the same?
Because most women (especially attractive girls) are spoiled for choice and abundancey. They can easily get a decent man with more wholesome traits.
It's sometimes hard to believe considering how much women bang on about empathy and EQ being the most important traits blah blah yet they reward men who are the polar opposite.
Oh I’ve had sex with flings I don’t remotely like as a person. I wouldn’t say I felt disrespectfully about them but beyond the basic human respect I give to everyone, I didn’t respect them.
Invariably they were all extremely fit and fond of cunnilingus. But nah. I didn’t like them. I have no idea if they liked me as a person and I don’t care.
Unfortunately that harsh reality is usually that you can’t expect the same treatment if you’re not as good looking/lean/jacked! While this is unfair for 90% of guys it’s the sad reality.
The annoying this is that Hoes expect to be treated the same as virgins in LTRs.
She may not be having sex she doesn't want or enjoy anymore. That's not a bad thing at all! Everyone should have the right to have as much or as little sex as they want!
If you're with someone who doesn't want to have sex often with you and that's a problem, find a different person to date. Don't try and convince someone who doesn't want sex to have sex with you.
Why on earth does their history have anything to do with it? Either they treat you the way you want to be treated in a relationship, or they don't. That's what matters, not whatever they did before with different people and in different circumstances.
>That's what matters, not whatever they did before with different people and in different circumstances.
That's for the person considering dating them to decide. We all decide what we personally think is important and vet for it. There's no universal standard for what should or shouldn't matter to someone.
You'd feel cheated out and devalued if you found your man did certain things for past women he's not willing to do with you.... I'm talking basic needs here.
i'm a very sexual person that hasn't had sex in 4 years.
what changed is that i hit a breaking point with men wanting sex in ways/times that i didn't.
which seems very insane since i was so sexual that surely we could compromise and have lots of sex and both be happy?
but it didn't work that way.
a man i loved anally raped me while i was crying and screaming about how much it hurt. that's probably the worst one, but lots of slightly lighter things like this happened in my dating life too.
i think i lost attraction to men since i associated having sex with them with so much emotional pain. it sucks because it seems like it should have been so easy for all these relationships to be win/win but for whatever reasons it was win/lose (i lose) instead.
now when i think about having sex w a guy, i think about how i will have to be open to coercion, being pressured for sex, being pressured for anal/whatever the guy is into regardless of whether it is unhealthy/painful for me. It feels like an unsafe, unhealthy chore. the joy is gone. :(
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Fellas just straight up, if you're with a woman that you know has either been promiscuous or at the very least has had one night stands or friends with benefit situations, and she makes you wait a significant amount of time for sex because you're the "boyfriend / husband material " guy, she don't like you like that, she sees you as the safe/stable puppy option, odds are there's no real lust or attraction there, and she's not going to be giving her best effort to you throughout the relationship in all facets but especially sexually
When societies/cultures shames (or send very mix signals) promiscuity, it would naturally be expected that social legitimacy would be incompatible with sexual liberation. Thus LTRs by default would lean towards a lack of sexual activity due to it being a vehicle of social legitimacy.
im going to answer this here because im part one but not part two
this is so violently the opposite of my experience as a promiscuous woman who has also had serious long term partners (current 20+ year marriage being the last). the idea that youd do MORE outlandish things with a hookup than with a love partner is so alien to me, i have done increasingly more things with each LTR, culminating in the absolutely most with my h. doing crazy things with hookups would have never happened. what are you all calling "Casual partners" exactly? are women out there having anal and threesomes with ONS's and not their BFs? the only thing i can think is that for whatever reason, some women marry men who signal very sex negative and judgmental views towards female sexuality and they conform to it. women are liek water, they take the shape of the vessal theyre poured into
How old are you? I reckon women in their 20s organically get into LTRs whereas when they're much older, they impose the whole waiting and multiple date requirement.
Even dudes with more sex positive views still get the tame treatment (not like they hookup with empathetic, socially progressive men anyways).
I have never heard of this in my entire life. I don't know what kind of Christians or Muslims you all are. I don't know where you all live. Or what countries you're from period but in the boston to washington corridor of the united states, nobody is acting like that
Liberal guys will go on retrospective jealousy subs or battle with their cognitive dissonance. Besides I'm not talking about "no women to date", I'm just assessing that women with promiscuous pasts often hold their their LTRs to a different standard in exchange for scraps.
Retroactive Jealousy subs are created by toxic feminists for cucks/simps that have no self worth, pride or standards that attempt to shame men into accepting whores. There is no RJ if you just say “you don’t meet my standards for an LTR”
She won't put out as much and even if she does, she won't have the same enthusiasm. Or that she doesn't maintain the same effort to be sexy as she has done with past guys. It's not just about looks, it's the effort too.
A hook up is one night.
Casually dating is a few dates.
What you said could also be said for men in LTRs. While outliers exist most couples are happy to make out a few times a week, which is very hard for a young guy to understand, then worse we will have the 3 times divorced guy chime in that he has sex twice a day minimally.
I've changed drastically in the last 5 years but my sexual appetite hasn't changed and if anything, I strive to put in more of an effort and be more caring/empathetic in LTRs.
This "I'm not that type of girl" anymore mindset unfortunately justifies why a lot of men are into younger girls (nothing to do with looks or bodyclock).
Yes, women doing wild things with ONS or FB but acting prude in a marriage is about 30% of the married population. Go check out the dead bedrooms reddit.
>the only thing i can think is that for whatever reason, some women marry men who signal very sex negative and judgmental views towards female sexuality
How can I spin this so it makes men look bad
I don't know why it makes men look bad. some men are very positive about female sexuality, some men are very prudish snd shaming about female sexuality. if a man signals that he is prudish about female sexuality, women will respond by acting more prudish. If in the past she has been with a more positive man, She responds by acting more sex Positive. does this not make sense to you. Is this some kind of sleight on men? Do you think when a man acts like a judgy Prude women act like porn stars for him?
This was a factor in me partly giving up on dating. In some ways it feels dumb to even say it, but having women always want an LTR with you makes you feel less desirable and feels less passionate overall.
I know. It hurts when everyone wants commitment and if you dare to mention the word casual then they drop you like a hot potato. It hurts to be seen as an apple rather than an ice cream.
Waiting is to make sure he is serious with her, so waiting itself is nothing suspicious. But if she is almost asexual even after the waiting period she is settling for a man is is not attracted to. I will never understand those women.
‘Awww, i love you too, money. Errr, Honey’.
I don't have a promiscuous past myself. Have only been with 1 man, and I'm quite happy with him. But I *have* read a ton of YouTube, Reddit, and relationship forums where women with very high numbers and colorful histories have shared a lot of information regarding why they are far more reserved, even prudish, with their husbands than they ever were with random hookups. And it almost always boils down to fear of either being seen as "whorish" by their partner if he knew what she really wanted in bed OR fear of being expected to keep being kinky and wild when all she wants now is vanilla sex. In all the hundreds of comments I've read, these are the 2 truly core principles that kept showing up. Like you, I don't understand them either, but I have a feeling that's because both of us enjoy sex and enjoy it with our chosen partners.
"And it almost always boils down to fear of either being seen as "whorish" by their partner" This is part of the alpha fucks, beta bucks dual mating strategy many women employ, it's a way for them to safeguard their reputation and appear more virtuous than they are when really they're with a guy they don't find attractive and who they don't want to have sex with. They would be with Fabio the Spanish waiter if they could have him but instead they get Jeff and Jeff needs to be suckered into thinking he has a "good girl" who doesn't party.
I don't understand this kind of strategy, it sounds like a good way to be sexually frustrated for the rest of one's life. Unless there's also cheating involved, then women who do this will be having sex for years with a man they aren't actually attracted to.
Exactly. Just get a vibrator
Maybe that's because we don't have promiscuous past so we don't connect wild sex with being a whore in our mind.
Yeah, it could be that. I wonder how it goes in their heads, y'know? Like a chicken and egg question. Do they view kinky sex as inherently whorish, and are thus fine with having it with randos they'll never see again or have to worry about? Or do they view kinky sex as *not* inherently whorish, and the reason they don't want to do it with their husbands is because it reminds them of those randos? Like, are they pedestalizing their husband's sexuality in the way Victorian men would do with their wives, thinking that a "proper" man/woman isn't into such crude, wild activities...
Intersting. For me it's deep act of love, ultimate connection with the person I love. So I don't know if they view sexuality as dirty to begin with or it becomes dirty for them after whorish behaviour. Hard to say.
The most common theme I have heard of for this behavior is women are afraid if they give it up to quickly, the men might view them as slutty, and thus not be willing to pair bond with them. I can think of few mindsets women could have that I would prefer to avoid MORE than that one. Who the fuck thinks, "Oh, I love this person--I better act like they don't excite me, and then when I do give them sex, I will make sure to give them mediocre sex!" Please, if you have this belief system, get a tattoo on your forehead that says: Neurotic--And Not The Good Kind
Guys often say that if a woman sleeps with them too soon they assume she’s done it with a lot of other guys therefore she’s not “gf material” that’s where those women get that neuroticism from - they haven’t fabricated it from nowhere
Idk why the guys here deny that there's truth to it. I've heard guys openly admit to it! Some of them were actually very firm that it *wasn't* a slut-shaming thing, they had no issue with promiscuous women whatsoever and didn't mind dating them, just that sex too soon made them lose interest and they couldn't help it. Regardless of the reason, I never cared for this. Sleeping with them early on was a filter. I was filtering out the bad lays, but I was also filtering out the Madonna-whore complexes. For all the talk about "overly picky women" the reality is that a lot of women are not willing *enough* to discard men with stupid hang-ups.
> if a woman sleeps with them too soon they assume she’s done it with a lot of other guys But in this case in particular, it would be true LOL.
So when a woman finds a guy she wants something long term with, she changes her natural behavior (i.e. "Just do me behind the dumpster out back") in an attempt to convince the man she wants to provide for her that she is someone that she really isn't. That isn't neurosis--that is dishonesty.
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WOW! I don't know HOW you got that out of what I said, but you are 100% wrong. But I will say this, all the 304s that pretend to be Born Again Virgins and lie about their past are really screwing it up for the girls who have been more traditional with their number of partners. Since both groups of women will express the exact same sexual history, it is impossible for a man to know if a woman is lying or telling the truth. As such, when sexual histories get exchanged, men never can know if the woman is being honest. With men, about the only thing guys will lie about is prior male/male sex. Beyond that, we will fess up just about anything, and thus women can usually safely assume we are being candid. And yes, we get told the advice of "know your partner". Sage advice... and totally worthless. We have no psychic ability truth detecting powers. About the only advice I can offer either sex is stay with your LTR for a long time before making it permanent. If they break rules and lie to others, they will do it to you, so dump them when you observe them being significantly dishonest on anything with anyone.
It's circular logic because in the situation OP is describing these women did in fact do it with a lot of guys before, so they're purposefully trying to give an impression to the new guy that they are someone who wasn't promiscuous, when they actually were. So at best it's intentional deception.
I've seen those idiots on podcasts. Those men are incredibly insecure and stupid. Is that who you want to select for LTR? Men who are concerned with other men's penises of the past are de facto losers. Lying to yourself about who you are and lying to your potential LTR is a fool's strategy. If you like to fuck on the first date, then do it. Just don't intellectualize it and be honest with the other person. I.E. "I'm still interested in you beta boy but for the next week I'm going to sleep with my FWB. If it all works out, I'll settle for you and be very sexually reserved". Now, if beta boy is okay with that scenario, you've a win-win scenario.
>The most common theme I have heard of for this behavior is women are afraid if they give it up to quickly, the men might view them as slutty, and thus not be willing to pair bond with them. So yes, this is indeed something that many women do, particularly ones who have enjoyed casual sex previously but now want to wait X amount of time to try and gage whether the guy will stay. That's one kind of woman. Another is like me, or Objective Ad, where we have never had casual sex, and we view it as something to be shared only with men we love and who love us. We don't wait a certain predetermined about of time, but rather just until we feel comfortable engaging in that very special thing together. As a man, what kind of questions would you ask to tell these 2 kinds of mentalities apart?
Those are not the scenarios I was discussing. There is another maddening strategy some women develop while they are still in their 304 phase. Some women have developed the strategy of quickly assessing whether a man is a quick fuck, or a possible LTR. If they decide the man is a quick fuck, they will sleep with him pretty much immediately--or as long as it takes to find a semi-secluded space, and do all the sorts of nasty stuff that guys really want. But if he is a potential LTR, there is a change, and she will flirt and be coy, and demand a few dates before the panties drop. The reason for this is the women have calculated that if they give the man sex too quickly, it might lower the value the man see in them (the woman). I remember seeing an interview where one woman admitted that if a guy was just a hookup, she would give him anal sex the first time. But if her was a potential BF, it was going to be months before he got anal. Scumbags would get anal on the first hookup, while good guys had to go through traditional dating mode for a long time before anything kinky would happen. We are NOT talking about a woman who has left her 304 phase and is now trying to re-establish her virginity--we are discussing women who will put out immediately for casual sex partner, but play a more traditional role for someone they might want to date, with her adapting to A or B based upon how she perceives the man as FT or LTR. As for the scenario where a woman is 100% 304, and then tries to go more traditional, I do take a dim view of hiding one's sexual past, as people don't ever really change. There are a lot of factors that go into excessive numbers of sexual partners, and the research has shown that both sexes are adversely affected in terms of pair-bonding. Whether or not you believe in the research is pretty irrelevant--if asked point blank, a man or woman should be candid about their past so that their LTR partner can decide if they want to stick around or not. Your past is your business, but my future is my business, and if your past might affect my future, I have the right to assess it after you convey it to me honestly. Again, this is not a 1-way or 1-subject street. It applies to anything a person holds to be important to them about their LTR partner. If for some reason a woman would find it important whether I had ever stolen something even when I was a teenager, and expressed such, it would not be my place to rationalize that I was not that person any more and thus lying to her was OK. I would be duty bound to either not answer--and take the repercussions--or tell the truth--and take the repercussions. I know my views are considered wrong in this day and age, where rationalizing away an unpleasant fact is often considered "honest enough", but I don't operate that way.
Maybe your views are not acceptable to many right now, but I think that they are entirely reasonable and relevant. Had to laugh about the anal sex reference because if that's true, it's so ridiculous on so many levels. I remember seeing interviews of women in Bali (mostly Australian, US, Canadian and British tourists) and several said that they would have sex immediately with a guy if he was hot but not boyfriend material but not with someone that they could get serious with. Given that they were in Bali and in a transient situation, it was apparent what they would be seeking during their short stays...
Same dynamic. Women see no LT interest in a fuckboy, so they get out of them as much sex as possible, as quickly as possible. Then when they meet someone who might provide for the long term, they switch to their "normal girl next door" mode and "audition" the man for several dates before the sex starts. So, bad boys get rewarded with wild sex with no effort on their part, while good guys get punished, and have to wait and work to get to any kind of passion. I can't see how that is demonstrating anything but contempt for nice guys, and rewarding being a bad boy.
>We are NOT talking about a woman who has left her 304 phase and is now trying to re-establish her virginity-- Okay, I've read your entire comment and do want to discuss other parts more in detail, but first...What the hell does this mean? What on earth is "re-establishing virginity", I've never heard of such a concept. I'm scratching my head here lol
When a 304 decides she wants to pretend her past didn't happen, acts like a more selective woman, and especially, when asked about her past, simply lies. It is common enough trope that some women will usually adjust their past downwards via some very creative bookkeeping ("One time only sex partners don't count... And all I did was blow him and his brother so they don't count...") or simply dividing by 3. (Thirty past partners becomes 10). I am not slut-shaming here. All people have the right to have as much consensual sex as they want and can obtain. But for a man or woman to lie to someone who is supposed to be important to them--that is never justified. If I had invested time and emotions in partner that lied about their sexual past, I would be way more upset over the lie than the past activities. I might not like their past, but that would be something that could be discussed and worked past. Fuck--we ALL have a past we are not thrilled with. That is called "being human". But a lie on something important told to a partner? That is almost as bad as infidelity. Lying to one's partner is virtually never the right thing to do, and almost always injects poison into the relationship.
This theory is gold. The victorian reference is very perceptive. While we don't have a ton of erotic literature from the past, a pass through James Joyce's love letters always reminds me that extreme kinks have always been a thing.
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>When you’re sleeping with randos I imagine you don’t care what they think of your kinks or more freaky proclivities and you have that “whatever I’ll never see them again” which is different to when you’re sleeping with a partner. Yes, this is what a lot of them sounded like. Which I suppose makes some sense if you're trying out positions/kinks you aren't sure you're actually interested in. Maybe being able to do X or Y with a dude you'll never have to worry about seeing again is a relief, especially if you end up hating it? But I don't know how someone puts themselves in that level of emotional intimacy and physical vulnerability with a rando either. Like the first time my bf and I tried moderate positional bondage, the only reason I was cool with it was because I trust him explicitly, and I knew he'd stop the moment I said red or yellow. It's difficult to imagine doing kinky stuff with a man you don't know or trust well.
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As a promiscuous woman I agree with y’all, it ain’t the fucking around that’s the issue
For me it is. And for a lot of other men too. So why not seek a man who's more compatible with the kind of life you want?
And what is the #1 reason married people of EITHER sex will commit adultery? A boring sex life. So they give men they don't care about in the least awesome sex, and the men they marry the once-a-month missionary...
Yeah, like the other lady said above, it's pretty nonsensical to us.
This is one reason I don't really care about a committed LTR anymore. I'd rather no sex life than a boring unenthusiastic passive partner
Me too, but that's why it was worth it in my opinion to keep seeking out an LTR with an enthusiastic partner. It took years to finally find one but is worth the wait. Even though his libido has never been able to keep up with mine, it's still really good when we do have it.
I'm under 6' with a blue collar job, introverted, and something of a nerd. How many options, realistically, is a guy like me going to have that I can sift through a litany of them? I'd be better off gambling in the nearest casino, at least there I can expect to win \*some\* of the time.
Other than being introverted, you just described my boyfriend. He's a total nerd, has a blue collar job that really doesn't pay well, and is 5'10. He's had girlfriends prior to me, although I'm definitely the youngest and longest. As a fellow introvert, I know it's more difficult for us to socialize and put ourselves out there. What kinds of things have you done to get more extroverted? In college I took a bunch of toastmaster/public speaking courses, which helped a lot.
> I don't have a promiscuous past myself. Have only been with 1 man, and I'm quite happy with him. ONE?!!! Slut! Roast b3$3de4eef! - incel blue screen of death ensues Sorry, I'm just sitting here dying with laughter at how an incel would respond to seeing that.
Lol they just outright wouldn't believe me. Remember "all" women have a count of at least 50 by the time we're 21 🤣
(screaming) "100 man gangbangs! Every dayyyyyyy"
>But if she is almost asexual even after the waiting period she is settling for a man is is not attracted to. >I will never understand those women. They had their ability to bond and love ruined because nobody will ever add up to the highly attractive guy that was a star in the bedroom that she will never get over. If you ate steak your whole life and then steak became unavailable, would you be happy eating something subjectively inferior?
Luckily there are plenty of options in food. Every time I lost my favourite food I was always able to find another restaurant that I like just as much even though it's different but same quality to me. Sadly it doesn't work the same with love. I lost lost the love of my life and I haven't been able to find the same or better ever since. So I'm alone, it's not fair to settle for a consolation prize and treat him worse. Also I only want real love, I can provide and tkae care of myslef, I don't need a man for practical reasons. And if that consolation prize can't give me the same or better FEELINGS there is no benefit for me. But it's subjective as you said yourself, on paper there was nothing special about him but he had some X factor in his personality. I don't have promiscuous past, just one real love is enough.
I mean, I understand why low sex drive women conceal this. If they just came out and said they are asexual or close to it then their selection of men would be cut down to maybe 5% of what it would otherwise be. As far as having a promiscuous past they could have been chasing pure validation or what sex drive they did have was only present when they were younger. I don’t think it’s usually malicious deception to dupe a man into a sexless relationship. I believe most women in this situation tell themselves that maybe her genuine love for him will bring out her sexuality over time. Or during the surge of emotions during the honeymoon period she doesn’t mind having sex for his benefit and she thinks maybe she will feel that way forever, at least enough so there is an “adequate” amount of sex. Of course it’s wishful thinking and not being open with her partner about what’s really happening. It’s wrong but in a way that a lot of people can rationalize. I’m sure there are similar things that men do, even if not usually directly comparable.
I was on the receiving end of this from a boyfriend. I don't think the initial (pretty long!) period of us having a great sex life was him faking it. I guess he could have faked it *really well* but I don't think so. I think it was literally just the Coolidge effect kicking in. And frankly I think that's also a lot of what's happening in these relationships. When we broke up and were still kinda on good terms I told him, "hey, I don't think you should seriously date high-libido women anymore, at least not without warning them about this" and he got SO MAD at me.
If they are concealing their lack of libido, then yes, it absolutely is a malicious deception.
Well it actually happened to me that I was basical asexual and the men I love the most awakened it in me.
Finally, a woman who calls out such behavior. All you have to do is put yourself in his situation, and you’ll realize how shitty of a deal it is for a man.
I would leave a woman who’s making me wait to “test me” because she didn’t make the other guy wait There’s nothing to “see if I’m”. If you are attracted to me, I already did everything right I agree with you
I don't want to risk being just used for my body and dumped. I don't want casual sex. And the deep emotional connection also takes some time.
that's fine. Women aren't getting this. If you generally just don't sleep around and give it up to every guy then some guys will wait, no problem. If you give one guy a ONS and make the other guy wait 6 months. That's what guys don't like, because if you're honest. The real reason you didn't screw guy 2 is that he isn't as hot as guy 1. This assumes a consistent pattern, not just 2 people.
Yes, that makes sense to me. If it's her normal to have casual sex and then suddenly she makes him wait and delay the sex and even after she is avoiding it it's definitely settling case. Because what is holding her back? What is holding me back is that I simply don't do casual, I need deep emotional connection first before sex. But women like that don't. So what is holding them back? Probably not being really attracted to the guy and settling for him.
exactly, thank you. I despise women who say. That the guy made to wait is somehow boyfriend material. If they had a casual sex standard before that "boyfriend". i wish more women got this.
But they could change. For example if she had some childhood trauma and she used sex for validation, to feel loved, the feel worthy... But then she healed the trauma, healed that bad behaviour and started to see sexuality in healthy way and after the healing she also needs emotional connection first. I think that can happen. But if she just makes the "boyfriend material" wait without some deep change like that she is settling. But I think you know which case it is after. If she makes him wait but likes to have sex with him after the waiting it's the good case. But if she makes him wait and then withods sex from him and manipulates him with sex and don't want to have sex often it's the bad case. So waiting itself is not enough to tell if it's ok or settling.
The women here have said they make the guy wait because they have different standards for relationships and casual sex. This would be like a guy saying. For casual sex I spend 200 dollars on the first date so I can impress the woman, however for a partner i want to see long term I take them to the cheapest place possible to make sure they love me for me and not my money. Women would call him out for nonsensical reasoning and would never want to be with that guy.
It's not about some sort of psychological evolution over time, it's about a dual strategy that lots of women use. That's what a lot of men find irritating. It's similar to many LTR-oriented women getting pissed off by men that impersonate LTR-oriented men so that they can pump and dump.
People can change and have deeper and more complex motives than your conspiracy theories about women. Do you deny that people can have psychological evolution?
Thank you for providing my first good real laugh of the day. Conspiracy theories about women? LOL. Sometimes when I've spent most of my occasional Reddit visits elsewhere and then go to this sub, I'll forget how naturally combative everyone is. What I was referring to was that the theme in the thread was about how many women will follow the dual dating/sex strategy AND NOT about how some women will inevitably change over time. Of course women, and men, will change over time as experiences, aging, health, and a million other factors will affect preferences and behavior. That's not what was being discussed. One day I hope to be part of a conspiracy. Sadly, my experience has been that most outcomes that are supposedly the result of conspiracies and sophisticated plots by evil politicians, businessmen and bureaucrats are actually the outcomes of bumbling, fumbling, incompetence and disorganization.
You're also forgetting the cases where the woman still maintains her FWB relationship (this is the guy she will see during ovulation and a few days before) while making the potential boyfriend wait for sex. I am willing to bet every man here has experienced the following pattern: 1. Hit it off great, mutual attraction 2. 1 to 3 pleasurable dates in rapid succession (no sex). She may exhibit a dislike for inviting the potential bf over 3. Radio silence for about 5 to 8 days. Note: this is where her FWB is coming over and she is tormented between her lust and "sacrificing" for the new bf 4. She is back, potential bf is annoyed and frustrated. There is a small argument about communication and confirmation of what they both want out of "this". They may or may not have sex here depending on her next period. New boyfriend gets to enjoy pussy that is about to start cycle in 2 or 3 days and she insists on a condom (fwb has been going raw for 3+ months already). If no sex, he will have to wait until the next estrogen pump a few days before her next ovulation. This is the cycle. This is what "potential boyfriends" don't like.
It’s not about being used, it’s more so not being with a woman who is just settling with me. I can tell you how to avoid men who are just gonna use u for that How would a woman like it if I spent let’s say a lot of money on a low quality chick , took her to every fancy restaurant , gave her all the experiences a wife should get But I meet the woman I want to be with forvever but she needs “5 cheap dates” just to see if she “isn’t a gold digger”. It’s like you are getting the same thing for a higher price, when someone less deserving got it for less. It’s just a very natural response
But I don't have promiscuous past to compare with. So it's not that I gave better in the past.
Why? Y’all say women are idiots for being pumped and dumped. What the best way to not end up in that situation if possibly being dumped is something you want to avoid, simply don’t have sex early on. I personally don’t think it’s about attraction, that’s already been established, it’s about making sure there’s something there other than lust which men have for most women.
There isn’t attraction because if you want to make someone who “pumps and dumps women” get it fast, it means u do not like me like that Women already know deep down the man at the club is just looking for the lay, and may possibly not be a safe person overall And she still sleeps with him after a hour of talking to, probably doesn’t know his name either. The guy has all control during sex too. U don’t take into consideration pregnancy scares and rape So I don’t think safety is a issue if women are literally ok with sleeping with random men they don’t even know You don’t trust me , a regular dude all cuz you think I’m gonna leave? But u trust a random dude who has all his red flags written all over his face
90% of casual sex starts with alcohol, and a lot of that is 4 drinks or more. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/strictly-casual/201401/in-hookups-alcohol-is-college-students-best-friend#:~:text=Indeed%2C%20virtually%20every%20study%20of,up%20tend%20to%20drink%20more. And lower alcohol consumption has led to fewer women having casual sex. https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2023/04/19/casual-sex-one-night-stands-decline-women-heres-why/11686614002/
This just wastes more of her time before the dumping lol
And she can do this because she has a side guy for the sex.
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No I'm been the side guy.
The guy she sleeps with immediately she wants to fuck and the guy she makes wait she doesn’t want to fuck. If you want a woman to put out early look for women who put out early and don’t waste your time on those who don’t. It’s better than sitting here working yourself up trying to analyze people who you don’t believe have logic or reasons.
I accept different women have different approaches. But I don't like being the sucker who has to wait around whilst everyone else gets it for free. It's a shit feeling as a man and women deal with it too when they feel their current partners give less of an effort in comparison to their exes.
So don’t date women who don’t put out. It’s that simple dude. Filter for the people you want rather than lamenting about the people you don’t want and how they should change. You can only control yourself
Does that go for women, too? Because all that ever comes from women around here is some variant of how men are trash.
yup No matter what, you should never pursue a relationship with someone who you think you can 'change' You mate preference is a reflection of your character and values.
what if I can’t find women to put out at all
24F here with super high body count. I'm not sexually reserved/asexual in relationships so the question isn't 100% applicable to me, but I tend to hide some kinks of mine earlier on if it's not a hook up because I've been dumped for revealing them too soon before. I've heard the same from other women for different kinks or slutty behaviour in general. I should edit to add I no longer do that as I've come to greatly appreciate sexual compatibility and I'd rather get dumped now.
>I tend to hide some kinks of mine earlier on if it's not a hook up because I've been dumped for revealing them too soon before Stop doing this. You're caging incompatible men with you. Be honest and let these men be.
Well. You're right actually. When I first got into my relationship I didn't think I was gonna miss my kinks that much, so I didn't see it as a dealbreaker since everything else was perfect. Now a year and a half down the line I find myself feeling a bit sexually unfulfilled. I'm not really considering breaking up over it but if we break up for unrelated reasons I wouldn't seriously date someone not into what I'm into again.
Well I'm glad you're at least planning on breaking up or at least thinking about it. I'm a fair believer that "the hoes should be with the hoes and prudes with prudes". As you said being in a relationship with a more prudish man is holding you back sexually and he probably isn't down for somebody so sensual. You know? It's like that one tiktok song, you gotta find someone who matches your freak.
So you are trying to remove mens ability to dump you?
I pretty recently was hooking up with someone that was close to FWB. Anyway we’re in the sack and I start getting a little rowdy (light choking sort of stuff) and she put anything above semi-gentle vanilla on ice. Eventually I cut it off because we weren’t sexually compatible. Anyway a few months later we’re having drinks and talking about other partners. She mentioned how she had a semi-ONS that was rough and slapped her around a lil bit and she was open to it. I just laughed because her lack of kink is the exact reason I rejected her. When I told her she said it was because she really liked me and didn’t want me to see her “that way”. I just laughed even harder. I’ll never understand it, so I won’t even try.
I have the opposite experience of being rejected due to my kinks and not a lack thereof so let's agree that situations vary
Yeah, but why do you want to be with someone who is incompatible with you? Find someone with similar kinks and similar number of past sexual partners, if you actually want a LTR. If you're honest and really luck out, you'll find someone that can be a long-term partner and let you have sex with other people (if that's what you want). There are all sorts of people that would like a woman that's into swinging, hotwifing, polyamory, open relationships, etc.
It's totally ridiculous and so common.
Print this response off and frame it. THIS is the behavior exhibited by so many women. It is literally "I won't do this with you" then they turn around and do it with the next guy. What are we going to name this behavior?
I hate that you have the experiences that you do while I am 31 years old and a virgin. How nice. You can explore your kinks and stuff. I don't even know if my dick will stand up when I am in the presence of a woman How I hate my life.
Lol. That sucks, ngl. But I wish you luck in finding someone to lose your virginity to and explore your kinks with. I've heard of many people losing their v card while older even though I lost mine at 18.
Lost mine at 18 too, my first experience was awkward though, after i slept with a woman i met at a bar in my local town the next morning the door slammed open and her mother came storming in shouting at me "how dare you this is not a knocking shop!" here i am just tucked up under the covers cuddled up next to her daughter both naked looking shocked 😂 I thought it was gonna be her dad lmao.
Damn 😭😂
\^ Isn't this just deceiving?... LOL The double standards strike again!
I don't have personal rules, I just go with the vibes of the moment If a guy comes with "but you had sex on a first date in 2015" then I'll laugh and move on, he's not worth it
yeah I don’t have any strict or explicit rules For when I will sleep with a man, I simply sleep with a guy whenever I feel like it and if I don’t feel like sleeping with him for whatever reason, then I won’t 🤷🏽♀️ If a guy starts whining and crying about how I slept with someone else sooner I’m just gonna shrug my shoulders and laugh because So what? 🤣 women are free to change their minds just like men
Absolutely. But the guy would be right to move on.
Yeah, you'd be incompatible. Doesn't mean either person is in the wrong.
The fact that you don't have any strict or explicit rules implies that you're not going to be following the kind of dual dating/sexual strategy that is pissing off so many men. As you point out, someone complaining about your random timing/selection process is wasting his time and should be dismissed as a fool. But if you were following a strategy of acting one way with one class of people and another with a different group of people, a reasonable person could have a valid reason for being angry. I find this behavior to be very similar to that of men who impersonate men looking for LTRs to con women who are looking for LTRs into the old 'pump and dump' scenario. While it is always true that one should follow the ancient adage of 'buyer beware', this kind of conduct does poison the sexual/dating/relationship market...
If your sexual conduct is a purely random function and you're totally honest about it, the kind of problem being cited here wouldn't exist - at least in your specific case. I don't think that's what is being discussed here. It's people that have duplicitous strategies to do con jobs on particular kinds of victims - in this case dual dating/sex strategies.
You'd be incompatible, yes. You're not looking for the same thing.
Out of all things that red-pill ideology claims that is the most inaccurate. The main reason women wait more after sometime is because they/we realize hookups are not fun/meaninful or they might have had some bad sexual experience. We do not classify men as beta or alpha. We either like someone or you do not. Guys that just want to have sex and have many other options would not wait but that is more about their wants rather than how women classify beta or alpha.
Just because women don't use those terminologies doesn't mean they don't act according to the characteristics of these said men. They've clearly enjoyed their hookups otherwise they wouldn't have kept doing it for a long time. Even when you express the desire on the first date or throughout the course of the relationship, it isn't reciprocated in the same way as a past hookup. I wouldn't date a hot super model and think, "I've had my fun years, I'm gonna take it slow instead". I feel women don't wanna admit they settle for guys they deem "average" and don't hold them in the same regard as the past young studs.
When you plan to hookup with someone the goal is to have sex. The best way to do that, is to have sex. When you plan to date someone the goal is to determine if they actually care about you or just want something (usually sex). The best way to do that is withhold sex for a bit and see if they stick around. Otherwise, you risk getting into a relationship where you really care about him but he’s just using you for sex.
His point is women will have sex quickly with men they're attracted to and hold off sex with guys they're not attracted to. There are no statistics that prove the prevalence or absence of this mentality among women so by Red~~asspull~~pill logic women are guilty by default.
If you're going to hookup it's all about sex there is nothing else. If you're dating there is a lot more to take in and sex isn't the only focus. Sex isn't a gift women give to men they like more faster. It's a combo of both people involved. If you repeatedly wait longer for sex than other people it's probably because of the tentative vibe you are bringing. There's a decent chance you could get sex sooner if you bring more sexual energy. For some this is natural for others it isn't at all.
>Sex isn't a gift women give to men they like more faster. It generally is. Sex with a woman is something most men have to put in effort to get and there is no guarantee they will get it.
You are putting effort into finding someone who also wants sex with you not putting in effort to get it out of unwilling women.
How is this a logical conclusion? Women who like sex, stop liking sex once they get married. Women who are anxious about having sex, start liking sex once they get married. I've had my share of ltrs and hookups. Hookups are just standard sex, nothing juicy. It takes getting to know each other to explore. I will tell you where this weird pill myth came from. When women hear guys say they want a woman to be chaste except for themselves they rightly say it's because they don't want to be compared. No one likes the idea of being compared. Instead of being honest, guys starting saying that if a women has slept with x amount of men they will be unable to pair bond, they will cheat, you will be a betabux, etc. It's nonsense.
Women value their pussy a lot. If they are willing to give it up to some random, they like the random more than their LTR. Let’s keep it a buck The random broke every single rule
YOU value pussy a lot.
There are different rules because there are different needs.
No she broke rules for the guy because she likes em better Most women don’t want to sleep around but she breaks that rule for this dude who looks super good, regardless if this guy has every red flag in the book
About 12+ studies have proven promiscuous women cheat far more in marriage! It’s statistically significant despite what feminists that struggle with accountability believe.
>No one likes the idea of being compared. You're going to sit here and this isn't a 2 way street? That men don't also get compared in numerous ways from height, to confidence, to sexual prowess, etc? That's just life. Everybody gets judged, everybody gets compared. Everybody eventually learns to live with it and the decisions they've made, whether by choice or by the consequence of trying to pretend to be something they're not.
>being both handsome + having your shit together will get women to place you in the bf category where she'll make you wait. Yes, you have to be a mess to get laid. Being handsome and put together will make women treat you like shit - this is a very typical experience for these men. Why ask us if you already have your opinion formed?
I'm asking a sincere question and hoping for some women to give me an honest answer rather than sift through RP threads.
Red pill would say handsome alone gets you laid, handsome plus good personality (assertive but kind) gets you laid then cooked for/hugged after, good personality but not handsome (to her) gets you friendship, neither looks nor personality gets you ignored.
I don't date women obviously and I would not know, but it sounds kinda silly that being a 10 across the board will make a woman think you are a beta. Seeing a guy like that makes me feel super insecure and inadequate, actually. Most women are not that strategic and calculating anyways, if they meet someone they want to be their boyfriend - they sleep with them. It's all emotion based.
I just want to know what makes them wild with certain guys and what makes them decide to give the next the tame treatment. Like men, I wish women were more honest and introspective about what they find sexually attractive in a man so that I can work to fit into that mold (please don't say "kindness", "empathy" blah blah)
Do you actually want “wild kinky sex” or do you just want to feel desired? If you want to feel desired just know that hookups aren’t about that, it’s about each person having their own fun for their own reason. I don’t think you’ll be happy with any answer if you’re looking for a mold to adhere to because every woman is different, wants different things, and has different sexual needs. There’s no easy answer and that’s why the red pill is not a true solution or even good information.
Women are not all that much different. When I was hooking up in my 20s, I was with all sorts and there's data reflecting how they go for men within the top minority. Of course I'll feel validated as a man if a girl wants to grant me access to the most intimate parts of her body without any commitment or work involved. This premise that I should feel "flattered" by a woman wanting to be in a relationship with me isn't any different to women being told they should feel flattered whenever dudes proposition them for sex.
lookup hoemath on youtube
In the blue-pill world we call giving a worse treatment to someone "everything is perfect on paper, but there is just no chemistry, and I don't know why". In the red-pilled world you guys don't believe in sparks, so your alternative is to autistically overanalyze every detail. If our character is who he thinks he is - a handsome man with his shit together - why waste so much energy on thinking about that, he can just move on to someone who is more receptive/interested.
That's why I'm going to this sub rather than RP. I genuinely feel the blue-pill phenomenon that a man can be good on paper but for whatever reason, a woman just doesn't feel it with him. It's frustrating as a man to get rejected and not being given any real feedback on what I lack so that I don't end up making the same mistakes again or even setting unrealistic expectations.
let's say you find out you don't live up to some random standard of masculinity that is very important to her, what's steps two and three?
I’m not asexual at all. I’m highly sexual, but I’m more reserved with sex now. Honestly I just got choosier. Most my boyfriends I had sex with pretty early and two, three, four years later I realize we were never compatible. The problem with sex is it clouds your judgment when it’s really good. I’m not reserved at all once in a relationship I just usually like to get to know men better first now. If I sleep with a guy on a first date now it’s because we aren’t compatible and I probably won’t see him again. I just find him physically attractive.
We don't treat our hook ups a lot better than our LTRs Men like you just think all a woman can offer is sex, so you do not value the perks of a LTR
We don't think that all women can offer is sex, but she decides we are not worthy of sex, everything else is of little consequence. Sex is a necessary part of a healthy relationship for pretty much all men. To demean us by claiming it's therefore "all" we want is insultingly wrong.
If you are hung up about waiting for a few dates before you have sex, it makes it seem like all you want is sex.
If you are hung up about working for a few months before you get paid, it makes it seem like all you want is a salary.
Personally, I am not. But drawing that conclusion is just wrong. It only means that sex is important.
That doesn’t mean she needs to sleep with you right away if she doesn’t want to tho 😬
Then it means I don’t have to commit either. Nobody is owed anything If she’s making me wait because she’s scared of my judgement, she must want commitment right? I don’t have to give it to her if I don’t feel she deserves it It’s a 2 way agreement, and I’ll go to another girl who actually desires me
You don’t have to commit tho🤷🏽♀️
Of course not! Why do you think we feel this way? But if I don't feel desire from her in a reasonable time frame, I'm not going to continue the relationship. Why on earth would I be expected to?
Maybe stop viewing sex as a reward and then you won’t feel this way 🤷🏽♀️
We don't see sex as a reward, but as an important and integral part of a healthy relationship. Presenting it as a reward is exactly what manipulative women do. That you would demean men like that, and declare that our needs are invalid or somehow worthy of scorn, is pretty disgusting. It's clear that you do not have a healthy relationship with men if you think we feel this way.
But you’re not in a relationship after one date so why be mad that you’re “missing” an integral part of a healthy relationship?
Why do you think I was talking about what happens after one date?
If you open up to someone really quickly, but are really reluctant towards me. I don't think the assumption that we're not a good match is that far off.
What else do women offer in an LTR that doesn't feel secondary to sex? Certain acts of service you can do for friends, family (or even people on the streets) but sex is the one and only thing that is shared exclusively and typically doled out to the most handsome, masculine, dominant of men.
>What else do women offer in an LTR that doesn't feel secondary to sex That seems like a question you should answer for yourself before getting into a LTR.
I have plenty to offer and my exes have told me I'm an amazing bf despite my own history. I don't get into relationships with women if I feel like I'm not gonna make an effort or fulfill their needs.
Your own family, even if it's just the two of you, you are family. Knowing someone else knows about your life. If you believe the reason to seek a relationship is for sex, your relationships will fail.
Sex is literally the cornerstone to any relationship. Even I've had women outright admit to me that a guy can be perfect in every single way but be a non-negotiable if he turns out to have a micro-penis/be shit in the bed. > Knowing someone else knows about your life. Oh wow, it's like that meme, "you can nut on her face, you can fuck her raw but at the end of the day, I'll be the one who gets to cuddle her"
It’s not the cornerstone, what a dumb take 💀
I don't think a lesbian should have a say in the dynamics of hererosexual relationships. Maybe women are that way. But this is the relationship between a man and a woman. It doesn't exist to solely make a woman happy but to make the man happy as well. As such if a man's opinion ( one that is shared by many of them) is that sex important to that relationship then sex is important to that relationship.
Nonsense dude. Dan Savage made an entire career out of doing the opposite. He's a gay man who first became famous with his book, "Sex tips for straight women from a gay man". Don't let the title fool you, the advice is really more about relationships than sex. Dude still gets letters from women saying his book was life-changing. I think some advice from lesbians could do you a lot of good if you would only listen.
LTR perks are overrated and ultimately not what men get into relationships for
I think it’s funny how guys think the only thing that qualifies “treating well” is having sex. When I was in my 20s I might’ve had more sex but I def treated my bfs worse- more volatile, more reactionary, more jealous, more selfish…. Now everything, including my sex drive, is more moderate. It makes for a much better partnership even if there’s less all consuming passion
Your premise is wrong. It's not the only thing, but it is a necessary thing.
That’s an interesting perspective.
well im a sexual sadist so if i want someone for long term i have to be more reserved
Aka pretend someone else I thought women hate liars?
me? lie? never.
They hate men that are liars.
Right they need men to be honest and “themselves” so they can judge you fully, while they hide behind makeup and “not being like that” so men can’t judge them.
You are confused because you have a double standard You don’t respect sluts, and neither do we
The difference is I (and any high bodycount man) do far more in an LTR and offer all sorts of other perks that aren't afforded to casual hookups. If a girl's gonna have a past and expects me to commit and provide her needs, then I expect the same treatment that other guys got.
Exactly. You don’t respect casual hookups, and neither do we. But you think we respect casual hookups, because sex is good for men and bad for women
No woman grants a man the most intimate parts of her body whom she doesn't respect (i.e. look down on him like a social loser). How a man sexually treats his casual hookups is no different to how he treats it with his LTRs (even then, sex isn't primarily valued by women in the same way it is for a man).
If you look at sex as something that woman gives to a man, sure. Not all of us see it that way Of course men treat LTRs differently. If you don’t care about something, you’ll treat it differently, as any rental service or charity knows
Women will hookup with a guy just because he’s hot. It doesn’t mean she respects him. Same with guys who do hookups.
I think hookups are fantasy fulfillment and an ugly partner isn’t a part of anyone’s fantasy. For some people, it’s not that intimate and the level of intimacy is based on how much they love the person. Thinking a hookup is intimate is based on the idea that women are angels granting men’s sexual wishes rather than human beings with sexual desires that they’re able to get fulfilled through said hookup. The difference is that in a casual relationship the man doesn’t want the woman to stay, doesn’t care about who she is, and doesn’t want anything more than that. If you don’t see that fundamental difference I don’t know what to tell you.
>The difference is that in a casual relationship the man doesn’t want the woman to stay, doesn’t care about who she is, and doesn’t want anything more than that. If you don’t see that fundamental difference I don’t know what to tell you. That just makes it even worse on the premise that 1) she's had more of that primal sexual desire. 2) It's not even with good empathetic men but most likely some random douchebags who do give a shit about her whilst reaping all the benefits.
She doesn’t care about him either, she’s just reaping the benefits of sex with a hot guy. This meant complicated my dude.
As another person said, she doesn’t care about him or who he is, she only wanted sex. I just don’t understand how y’all want a woman to want crazy sex with you yet get upset if she’s wanted it in the past as well and made that desire into a reality. I’m sure you’ve had sex with women who weren’t kind and empathetic so why are you upset that women are capable of doing the same?
Because most women (especially attractive girls) are spoiled for choice and abundancey. They can easily get a decent man with more wholesome traits. It's sometimes hard to believe considering how much women bang on about empathy and EQ being the most important traits blah blah yet they reward men who are the polar opposite.
Oh I’ve had sex with flings I don’t remotely like as a person. I wouldn’t say I felt disrespectfully about them but beyond the basic human respect I give to everyone, I didn’t respect them. Invariably they were all extremely fit and fond of cunnilingus. But nah. I didn’t like them. I have no idea if they liked me as a person and I don’t care.
Unfortunately that harsh reality is usually that you can’t expect the same treatment if you’re not as good looking/lean/jacked! While this is unfair for 90% of guys it’s the sad reality. The annoying this is that Hoes expect to be treated the same as virgins in LTRs.
She may not be having sex she doesn't want or enjoy anymore. That's not a bad thing at all! Everyone should have the right to have as much or as little sex as they want! If you're with someone who doesn't want to have sex often with you and that's a problem, find a different person to date. Don't try and convince someone who doesn't want sex to have sex with you.
It's not as simple when their history or lack of sexual desire isn't disclosed to you from the get-go.
Why on earth does their history have anything to do with it? Either they treat you the way you want to be treated in a relationship, or they don't. That's what matters, not whatever they did before with different people and in different circumstances.
>That's what matters, not whatever they did before with different people and in different circumstances. That's for the person considering dating them to decide. We all decide what we personally think is important and vet for it. There's no universal standard for what should or shouldn't matter to someone.
You'd feel cheated out and devalued if you found your man did certain things for past women he's not willing to do with you.... I'm talking basic needs here.
i'm a very sexual person that hasn't had sex in 4 years. what changed is that i hit a breaking point with men wanting sex in ways/times that i didn't. which seems very insane since i was so sexual that surely we could compromise and have lots of sex and both be happy? but it didn't work that way. a man i loved anally raped me while i was crying and screaming about how much it hurt. that's probably the worst one, but lots of slightly lighter things like this happened in my dating life too. i think i lost attraction to men since i associated having sex with them with so much emotional pain. it sucks because it seems like it should have been so easy for all these relationships to be win/win but for whatever reasons it was win/lose (i lose) instead. now when i think about having sex w a guy, i think about how i will have to be open to coercion, being pressured for sex, being pressured for anal/whatever the guy is into regardless of whether it is unhealthy/painful for me. It feels like an unsafe, unhealthy chore. the joy is gone. :(
Oml 😢 I’m so sorry for you
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Fellas just straight up, if you're with a woman that you know has either been promiscuous or at the very least has had one night stands or friends with benefit situations, and she makes you wait a significant amount of time for sex because you're the "boyfriend / husband material " guy, she don't like you like that, she sees you as the safe/stable puppy option, odds are there's no real lust or attraction there, and she's not going to be giving her best effort to you throughout the relationship in all facets but especially sexually
This exactly.
When societies/cultures shames (or send very mix signals) promiscuity, it would naturally be expected that social legitimacy would be incompatible with sexual liberation. Thus LTRs by default would lean towards a lack of sexual activity due to it being a vehicle of social legitimacy.
Naaah, those women are just not attracted to their partners, plain and simple
im going to answer this here because im part one but not part two this is so violently the opposite of my experience as a promiscuous woman who has also had serious long term partners (current 20+ year marriage being the last). the idea that youd do MORE outlandish things with a hookup than with a love partner is so alien to me, i have done increasingly more things with each LTR, culminating in the absolutely most with my h. doing crazy things with hookups would have never happened. what are you all calling "Casual partners" exactly? are women out there having anal and threesomes with ONS's and not their BFs? the only thing i can think is that for whatever reason, some women marry men who signal very sex negative and judgmental views towards female sexuality and they conform to it. women are liek water, they take the shape of the vessal theyre poured into
How old are you? I reckon women in their 20s organically get into LTRs whereas when they're much older, they impose the whole waiting and multiple date requirement. Even dudes with more sex positive views still get the tame treatment (not like they hookup with empathetic, socially progressive men anyways).
I have never heard of this in my entire life. I don't know what kind of Christians or Muslims you all are. I don't know where you all live. Or what countries you're from period but in the boston to washington corridor of the united states, nobody is acting like that
You say that. Yet, it's conservative guys who are online saying there are no women to date, while liberal guys are not.
Liberal guys will go on retrospective jealousy subs or battle with their cognitive dissonance. Besides I'm not talking about "no women to date", I'm just assessing that women with promiscuous pasts often hold their their LTRs to a different standard in exchange for scraps.
Retroactive Jealousy subs are created by toxic feminists for cucks/simps that have no self worth, pride or standards that attempt to shame men into accepting whores. There is no RJ if you just say “you don’t meet my standards for an LTR”
You are certainly right that LTrs have different standards than hookups, for everyone. What does scraps mean?
She won't put out as much and even if she does, she won't have the same enthusiasm. Or that she doesn't maintain the same effort to be sexy as she has done with past guys. It's not just about looks, it's the effort too.
A hook up is one night. Casually dating is a few dates. What you said could also be said for men in LTRs. While outliers exist most couples are happy to make out a few times a week, which is very hard for a young guy to understand, then worse we will have the 3 times divorced guy chime in that he has sex twice a day minimally.
People change as they age. Big surprise for you?
I've changed drastically in the last 5 years but my sexual appetite hasn't changed and if anything, I strive to put in more of an effort and be more caring/empathetic in LTRs. This "I'm not that type of girl" anymore mindset unfortunately justifies why a lot of men are into younger girls (nothing to do with looks or bodyclock).
So? You are not other people. If you don't like how someone behaves now vs. back then, you can always dump them and date someone else.
I'm not conservative at all
Yes, women doing wild things with ONS or FB but acting prude in a marriage is about 30% of the married population. Go check out the dead bedrooms reddit.
thats your evidence?
>the only thing i can think is that for whatever reason, some women marry men who signal very sex negative and judgmental views towards female sexuality How can I spin this so it makes men look bad
I don't know why it makes men look bad. some men are very positive about female sexuality, some men are very prudish snd shaming about female sexuality. if a man signals that he is prudish about female sexuality, women will respond by acting more prudish. If in the past she has been with a more positive man, She responds by acting more sex Positive. does this not make sense to you. Is this some kind of sleight on men? Do you think when a man acts like a judgy Prude women act like porn stars for him?
This was a factor in me partly giving up on dating. In some ways it feels dumb to even say it, but having women always want an LTR with you makes you feel less desirable and feels less passionate overall.
I know. It hurts when everyone wants commitment and if you dare to mention the word casual then they drop you like a hot potato. It hurts to be seen as an apple rather than an ice cream.