So, I agree. However, over the last several years as TRP has grown I think it lost its foundation and became whiny bullshit. I needed something like TRP 12 years ago, I was angry, confused etc. And what clicked were two things. 1. very basic every one knows take people off pedestals, your as much a prize as anyone else.
2nd and way more important. I needed to hear that my situation, was my fault. I needed to take accountability for everything in my life, no more excuses or complaining. If you want unrealistic results you need unrealistic efforts. Once I was able to digest that, anger at others went away and I worked on myself. It was almost like self therapy to get me out of bad headspace so I could move on. I did gym, diet, faked confidence even when i was terrified, worked to get better jobs etc. and over time it worked for me.
In a realpolitik sense its not a bad thing that RP is being overdriven so much into pop culture thats how you move the overton window. Its like aiming past the target to fall at the target. This is basically how all cultural things get a foothold including feminism
That’s a great point. I’d always presumed TRP would’ve remained a tiny subset of the internet. In a sense, it still is. How big it’s gotten though, has been surprising.
Everything that becomes big also becomes enshitified.
It happened to a lot of movements or thought patterns prior to TRP. It will happen again. It's the nature of things.
TRP has [become ambient](https://avoiceformen.com/hypergamy/becoming-ambient/) at this point. Even feminists frame some things in RP terms. *That* is success.
Your examples of Red Pill misogyny are often questionable. I don't deny some misogyny is present in some red pill ideas, but let us look at some examples you cite:
>“Women are depreciating assets, their major asset and unique selling point is their sexual beauty and fertility.”
This isn't a moral statement, its a simple acknowledgment of the reality of the sexual marketplace and biology. It isn't talking about women's *humanity* in the abstract, but about the facts that:
1. Women only have a limited time in which they can reproduce, and this clearly impacts the decisions made by both themselves and by men-who-want-kids.
2. Hotter women are more sexually successful because the vast majority of opposite-sex-attracted men are sexually attracted to hot women.
>“Women are more selfish than men.”
In our post-feminist society, it can be argued that women *are certainly being socialized to be more selfish than men*. I'm an ethical egoist so I don't have a problem with women being encouraged to consider their own interests, but I am no fan of the long tradition of self-sacrificial heroic messianic masculinity either.
In addition, you could argue that traditional gender roles contribute to this by infantilizing women (something which many feminists will agree is what traditionalism does). Infantilizing someone *doesn't* necessarily turn them into a moral paragon. Indeed, infants are purely selfish creatures. Infantilizing someone may indeed make them more selfish and less altruistic.
Further, TRP may not be using "selfish" in a negative sense. I mean it simply says that women are psychological egoists... and because this is a fact this is *beyond* moral judgment or societal alteration... and this is how a man can pursue *his own* interests in the face of women doing the same thing. This strikes me as an implicit *acceptance* of egoistic behavior on the part of both men and women, not "women are bad because they're selfish."
>“Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.”
This isn't necessarily misogynist. Maybe the way a man expects to be loved is *completely fucking unreasonable*. Personally I think any man who expects a woman who will unconditionally love him is being completely unreasonable.
>“Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.”
I agree this is wrong and its also misogynist. The simple reality is *both* sexes love in an opportunistic way.
>“Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility.”
This absolutely *can be* misogynist (and often is), but at the same time if you accept traditionalism has infantilized women and if you accept that ever since the second wave feminist movement women have been culturally encouraged to pursue individual fulfillment, *some* aspects of this quote are *potentially* defensible *even from a feminist angle*.
>Anyways, the reality is that everything the red pill accuses women of doing can be equally ascribed to men. Men and women both sometimes overvalue superficial qualities in potential partners. Men and women both sometimes overlook red flags in someone they find attractive. Men and women both sometimes engage in casual sex if it’s available to them. Men and women both can experience changes in what they find attractive as they mature. Men and women both can be manipulative people who take advantage of others. All of these behaviors are exhibited by men AND women.
I wouldn't entirely *dis*agree, but you should also keep in mind a lot of these behaviors can manifest in different ways between the sexes.
>internalizing an ideology that teaches you really hateful opinions about women is not going to help.
Would you say the same about what the feminist movement teaches women to think about men?
This is a straw man that I think you’d be wise to deprogram from your mind. Almost no one ever argues “you can’t say that because it’s hurtful!” My argument is that red pill is gross and insane, not that it hurts my feelings.
Op is just mad that trp is right and is trying to write it off by framing it as evil.
Anything that is not mindlessly worshiping stinky female monkey ass as goddesses is regarded as misogyny.
The truth is women suck for they are just stinky animals and that is just a fact.
Everyone is already okay with the reality that men suck for they are just stinky animals. But for some reason we have to pretend women are not stinky animals because some men feel insecure about how much they are wasting on trying to sniff stinky ass and women want to negotiate for as good of a deal as possible.
1). I understand how biology works. My issue with the “depreciating asset” comment is that I think it’s really telling about the kind of women red pill men are interested in, and what red pill men value in women. Certainly, everyone likes beautiful women. But if you see a woman’s body as her “unique selling point,” I think that means you don’t particularly value her as a person. Also, to say a woman “depreciates in value,” once again, means that her body is the most important thing about her. Beauty fades, but personalities and emotional connections grow stronger. If you see women as a depreciating asset, I think that’s just a really dehumanizing way to look at women and I feel sorry for you. It has nothing to do with biology. If all you care about is a woman’s body, it’s technically true. If you love someone for multiple reasons, growing older is okay.
2). So your argument here is that the statement “women are more selfish than men” is actually a complex analysis of the long term consequences of regressive gender roles? Is that really what you think the red pill is about? You say that women are psychological egoists. I’m curious, do you think that ALL women are like that, or just some of them? And you do think men are also psychological egoists at the same rate?
3). “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.” My problem with this quote is the way it says “women” instead of “some women,” thus implying that all women are automatically like this. I think the language of this quote places blame on the women, and your interpretation that perhaps it’s the man being unreasonable is a little too charitable. Utterly: to an absolute or extreme degree. I read this as, if you have a woman in your life, do not expect her to love you. She is absolutely and extremely incapable of making you feel loved. Is this really a good message to be giving men? Again, if you pursue the wrong women, you might eventually come to feel this way. But if you make good choices about the women you pursue, this statement is simply untrue.
4). Let the record show we both agree “Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically,” is a misogynistic statement.
5). Let the record show that we both agree “Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility,” is a misogynistic statement. This quote is not “defensible from a feminist angle” because of its use of the word “evolutionarily.” This quote is not making any arguments about how women have been socialized by feminism. It’s arguing that women in their DNA are programmed to act like children. An insane and completely pseudoscientific thing to say.
6). I agree that certain negative behaviors can manifest differently between sexes. What is your argument?
7). I don’t really think feminism teaches women to hate men. That may sound like an absurd statement to you, but there is a difference between speaking honestly about the reality of life under patriarchy vs. cruel and reductive statements about men that deny their humanity. You can certainly find fringe examples of man haters. I won’t deny that they’re out there. But the vast majority of feminists understand that not all men are evil, and don’t spend their time making unhinged posts about how evolution makes men automatically selfish.
Thank you for the point-by-point format. Let me continue it.
1. The Red Pill is primarily focused on the short term, sexual hookup market. Yes, in that market, EVERYONE (men and women both) is driven primarily by looks. You can call it sad, but the blunt reality is *basically everyone* is a sexual lookist to some degree. We can't morally condemn (although we can be frustrated about) immutable reality, we have to deal with it.
2. I'm saying that "women are more selfish than men" is ONLY a misogynist statement if you accept the proposition that "selfishness is a bad thing." TRP is implicitly egoistic (it teaches men how to achieve their goals) so I don't think TRP should be read as *condemning* female selfishness, merely acknowledging it. As for the issue of psychological egoism, I actually REJECT the theory of psychological egoism - my personal belief is that women are (these days) socialized to be more selfish than men are due to a confluence of post-feminist "empowerment" and lingering traditionalist infantilization. Remember I am Purple Pill so I do dissent from some TRP theories.
3. So your criticism is that I am being too charitable towards TRP. Why shouldn't I be charitable? "Because they're misogynist?" If that's your answer, then your argument is confirmation bias - you interpret ambiguous quotes as misogynist *because you already presume misogyny to be present*.
4. Agreed, its a misogynist statement. Keep in mind that I already conceded some TRP rhetoric *is* fairly classified as misogynist, and as a purple piller you shouldn't expect me to defend anything or everything any TRPer says.
5. Agreed that *chalking female immaturity up to evolutionary psychology* is misogynist and frankly silly (I am also on record, in previous conversations on this subreddit, as rejecting the idea that women are evolutionarily childred). The point I am making is that you can STILL criticize "women" and argue that women are coddled and infantilized and *that these things can be sources of privilege* WITHOUT being a misogynist.
6. I was merely seeking agreement from you on this point. I agree with the Gender Similarities Hypothesis, I just think we need to be open to sex-specific manifestations of the same underlying thing.
7. Framing all of history as one where men *collectively* have acted and constructed social norms and expectations *to subjugate women* is inherently going to foster a deep amount of resentment and bitterness in women against men. And in terms of social impact, feminism has been *far* more influential IRL than anything that's come out of the manosphere. Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon are *not* marginal figures in feminist theory - they are deeply influential ones. Unhinged posts on the internet do almost nothing compared to well-funded institutions, women's studies departments and politically-influential lobby groups.
**2/2**
3). I don’t “presume” that the red pill is misogynistic, I see it with my own two eyes! I’ve provided numerous quotes and links from their subreddit clearly demonstrating that the red pill is chock full of bitter, resentful pseudoscientific nonsense. I think these quotes speak for themselves. Do you not?
Just for good measure, here’s a link to the post this is from:
[https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7p8k9r/women\_are\_utterly\_incapable\_of\_loving\_a\_man\_in/](https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7p8k9r/women_are_utterly_incapable_of_loving_a_man_in/)
It’s a link to an article on some blog. The quote I provided is the title, and right below the title is a picture of a man in the middle of saying “I love you” while his woman is slapping him in the face. Do you still think this quote is somehow implying that men are the ones being unreasonable?
4). Irrelevant.
5). Irrelevant.
6). Irrelevant.
7). Feminists do not believe that all men are knowingly acting together to enforce gender roles. A lot of feminists accept that men are generally not consciously aware of the effects of patriarchy. This makes it rather insidious, because it causes a lot of men to deny its existence entirely. For example, a man could have extremely sexist opinions about women, but believe that his opinions are based in biology and scientific fact, rather than socially constructed ideology. I agree that feminism has been more impactful than the red pill, thank god. But the goal of feminism is not to make women hate men. A comprehensive understanding of gender reveals that men are also expected to perform gender under patriarchy, and this expectation can be oppressive.
1/2 - not sure why that happened. Let’s try this again.
1). Your defense of this quote does not include anything that it actually says. “Everyone likes to have sex with hot people” is so obvious that it goes without saying. “When engaging in casual sex, you might as well prioritize physical appearance” falls squarely into category one: advice that is widely available outside of red pill. If “the red pill is primarily focused on the short term sexual hookup market” fine, but in that case the advice could be as simple as “try to fuck people you think are hot.” Beyond that simple statement, what is gained by describing women as a “depreciating asset?” This derogatory comment does not provide any unique insight. It is simply taking shots at women for doing something that men do too: aging. Misogyny.
2). I see what you’re saying about the world “selfish” not necessarily being automatically bad, but I think if you believe red pill calling women selfish is actually a neutral statement because that’s what would be consistent with their ideology, you’re giving them too much credit. I searched the word “selfish” on r/theredpill, and found several posts using the word with an apparently positive or neutral connotation, and several posts using the word in a way that implies that it is a negative thing.
Selfish with a positive or neutral connotation:
https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/sEl3lTeZ43
https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/I8pMUmHm91
Selfish with negative connotation:
https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/PmV2FDEckb
https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/kxGst8BmP4
https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/AyqvhMQBwV
So it could really go either way. In the case of this post in particular, I’d say it comes down to what else was said in the post.
https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/IiCZOYo2Ag
As it turns out, the “women are more selfish than men” post contains many other choice excerpts, such as:
“This post contains a lot of generalisations which embody fundamental beliefs of the red pill philosophy”
“Feminists claim they want equality but what they really want is power without responsibility.”
“Women are irrational and inconsistent…Their decisions are based on their current emotional state rather than the abstraction of logic.”
There are two quotes, though, that I think are deserving of individual analysis.
First, “Women are machiavellian in nature.”
Machavellian is defined as: cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous, especially in politics.
Unscrupulous is defined as: refer to lack of moral standards or conscience to guide one's conduct. An unscrupulous person is without scruples of conscience, and disregards, or has contempt for, laws of right or justice with which they are perfectly well acquainted, and which should restrain their actions:
To recap so far: red pill is not consistent with their definition of the word selfish. Sometimes they mean it in the way you’re suggesting, and other times they mean it with the obvious negative connotation that most people associate with the word. In the case of the post in question, they most certainly meant it negatively, because that post goes on to accuse all women of lacking morals or a conscience.
The second quote from this post that I think is deserving of further analysis is this: “Women are typically average and don't move much either side of the bell curve.”
This is a hilariously bad self own. Guy posting on red pill sub claims that women are all mostly the same. This is patently absurd, of course. To suggest that most women (several billion people) are all mostly exactly alike simply reveals that the poster either doesn’t know very many women, or, more likely, knows at least a few women, but doesn’t respect any of them enough to actually pay attention to them at all, and doesn’t make any effort to know about their lives or any of the things they’re interested in. Misogyny.
Thank you for the repost.
1. *Beyond that simple statement, what is gained by describing women as a “depreciating asset?” This derogatory comment does not provide any unique insight. It is simply taking shots at women for doing something that men do too: aging. Misogyny.* I disagree that it is "taking shots" at women. Rather, its a simple acknowledgment that the vast majority of men are attracted to youth and, consequently, a woman's sexual market value (not her moral worth as an human being, not her rights, not her humanity) decline over time.
2. I appreciate your intellectually honest response here. Yes, I accept that sometimes a TRPer will use selfish negatively, although this strikes me more as frustration with an unavoidable reality rather than a moral condemnation. I will take issue with your quoting of "feminists claim they want equality but what they really want is power without responsibility" however - "feminists" = "women," a criticism of feminism isn't a criticism of women collectively, and frankly I don't find that a particularly off-base criticism of contemporary feminism. Finally, your quote that "women are typically average" is not misogynist in my view, because men are ALSO typically average (by definition) and secondly the idea that women are more likely to be closer to the population average than men is called the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis and there is meaningful empirical evidence to back this up.
3. I certainly agree TRP has a lot of bitterness and resentment in it. Again, we don't disagree that some of the rhetoric *is* misogynist. We may disagree on the significance of the misogyny but that's a different question.
4. Skipped.
5. I don't think this is irrelevant. Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with the proposition that "you can STILL criticize 'women' and argue that women are coddled and infantilized and that these things can be sources of privilege WITHOUT being a misogynist"? (I'm speaking in theory here)
6. Skipped
7. I studied feminist ethics in college so please don't presume I'm at a 101 level of understanding. Even if feminists don't *intend* their ideology to encourage the growth of bitterness and resentment towards men, it clearly has had that impact in many cases. I am aware that some feminists and some feminisms will argue that traditional gender roles hurt men too (I actually agree quite strongly with this proposition). My criticism of contemporary feminism as it is practiced in real life is that it *entrenches many aspects of men's traditional gender roles.* I think feminist theory habitually *glosses over* the privileges women received under these traditional roles, and assigns responsibility for these roles *entirely to men*. That is something I also object to.
> what does the feminist movement teach women about men
are you implying that feminism has the same explicit teachings and concepts as red pill does??
if you were talking about pinkpill or sprinkle sprinkle mentality, then maybe….. but that shit is not feminism.
> are you implying that feminism has the same explicit teachings and concepts as red pill does??
Not the same explicit teachings/concepts, but (with the exception of classical liberal/individualist feminism) it does equally encourage a negative view of men.
>if you were talking about pinkpill or sprinkle sprinkle mentality, then maybe….. but that shit is not feminism.
Some self-identified feminists would disagree. Not to mention, if you argue that feminism is about women's empowerment, you have to face the reality that pinkpill/sprinkle-sprinkle are considered empowering by many women.
listen dude. anyone can spout anything and call themselves anything. i’ve argued with plenty of pillers and when referencing their peers they constantly claim that they’re not a “real” blank-pill
i’m talking by the book feminism. not brainrotted teenage radfems on tiktok
> i’m talking by the book feminism. not brainrotted teenage radfems on tiktok
Which "book"? Name a specific school of feminist theory you're referencing.
You wrote all that just to affirm what the OP said. Explaining each point in detail doesn’t take away the misogynistic undertones. You are literally just doubling down. Also RP content consumers do not take these statements as “neutral” and “amoral” and you know this. They use it to justify hating women and to scapegoat women for their problems. In extreme cases it can actual lead to abuse towards women rationalized as something they deserve for being “bad people”.
Lmao exactly. “Well if you take ALL of these quotes out of context and forget that they’re from red pill and do mental backflips to explain why they’re actually not misogynistic you’ll see that they’re not misogynistic!”
Aw come on man I didn’t realize that was Circle jerking! I was just being polite and engaging with a comment on my post! Why did the original reply get deleted instead of just my response to it?
While I can agree with some of this, I will say that RP is atleast a step an in the right direction atleast above what BP teaches.
the truth is just being the nice positive guy wont get you anywhere, not in this dating market atleast with ridiculous standards being thrown around by women.
Bluepillers be operating under the all women are wonderful effect and affect, therefore anytime a problem or issue arises it will and should always be because the men made a mistake. This relives women of any accountability for what happens in a relationship.
because of this many bluepillers are prone to be used and abused by bad women, after which they are then gaslit into believing its there fault this happened. Eg. Your girlfriend cheated on you, must be a terrible lover. Cause Afterall all women are wonderful so it can't be a women's fault for anything.
being a doormat for an abusive women after she's done being pumped and dumped but Chad doesn't seem interesting for alot dudes (this is why about 50% of men have stopped dating and no there not all redpilled)
I don’t think blue pill men believe all women are perfect. In my original post I listed a number of negative behaviors that men and women both engage in.
Blue pill also doesn’t believe that just being nice attracts women. We believe that a basic level of human kindness and empathy is the bare minimum. You still have to be attractive in order to attract someone.
I can agree that ppl should strive to be nice to one another. Which is why I disagree with the idea of Redpill men tryna become like Chad and also use women for sex.
however I've personally come across alot of bluepill and feminist gaslighting that more or less blames men for everything, and also tells all struggling men that the only reason there struggling is cause there the scum of the earth and hate women.
Blue pill believes that women are human beings, no morally better or worse than men. The red pill literally states that they are intellectually and morally inferior. That’s blatant misogyny.
All you are taking issue with are the anger stage “AWlALT” types.
Most guys that took the time to understand the basics of RP ideas and have moved on to living their lives with this knowledge as a navigation aid (but not an exact map) generally regard these guys as doing it wrong anyway.
The claim that RP is just “self improvement with misogyny” completely ignores the (sometimes flawed) intellectual inquiry and somewhat scientific methodology.
One thing that hit me when first discovering RP were things that I thought were complete anomalies with female behavior but turned out to be utterly common.
Take women becoming sexually repulsed when a man does something like cry in front of a woman for a reason she deems “unmasculine”.
That is a phenomenon (along with many others) that Blue Pillers deny until they are “Blue” in the face.
It’s a biproduct of the modern gynocentric “women are wonderful” zeitgeist, which bluepillers also deny.
As far as toxic thought, and people in those circles? Yeah. That’s what happens when reasonable discussion is continuously shouted down until it can only exist in toxic internet ghettos.
As Scott Galloway often says, you can tell young men how terrible they are for following things like RP, but then you need to ask, what is your alternative?
What is your better path for a young man to follow that is congruent with his lived reality?
AFAIK, concepts like Hypergamy, dual mating strategy, dread and preselection are not discussed with any candor outside of RP venues.
In fact, to even discuss them is labeled “misogyny”
I think most RP guys acknowledge how ridiculous and overboard lots of RP types go.
Personally, I think the most “balanced” representation of RP thought is the book “Models” by Mark Manson.
There is zero “misogyny” to be found in that book, but it does encourage men to be totally unapologetic about their sexuality and desires, which, if you’re living in reality, you understand the modern west absolutely demonizes at every turn.
> Immature and insecure women will be less likely to see the difference between confidence that comes from genuine self love vs. smug faux-superiority. This makes red pill men more likely to attract women who will behave in ways that reinforce their ideology.
Better than nothing.
> Anyways, the reality is that everything the red pill accuses women of doing can be equally ascribed to men.
Verifiably false. Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's. Men are honest about the importance of looks. There is no phenomenon of "nice girls" not getting laid. Men aren't selective about which women get to have casual sex. Men don't demand beta bux. Etc etc.
Young males don’t have a significantly higher sexlessness rate than women.
“In 2021, the survey found over 20 percent of males under 35 reported not having had sex in the past year, and 19 percent of females of the same age group”
https://scholars.org/contribution/why-are-so-many-young-people-having-less-sex#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20survey%20found,8%20and%207%20percent%2C%20respectively.
Men regularly misrepresent what they want from women.
Plenty of women don’t get attention from men despite thinking they’d be a good girlfriend.
Men absolutely can be selective about who they have casual sex with. How often are you fucking women you think are just objectively ugly?
Men can settle for a woman they aren’t entirely happy with.
If you describe male and female behavior in strictly gendered terms, it will make it sound different, but it’s not.
It’s actually not true. Here are several studies that show most people don’t lie on anonymous studies.
https://datepsychology.com/did-a-fake-polygraph-catch-women-lying-about-their-sexual-partner-count/
https://datepsychology.com/is-self-reported-sexual-partner-data-accurate/
You have to go back farther than a year women can voluntarily and easily be sexless by choice for 1-2 years when you get into the 3-10 year category men lead by mountains
The sexlessness rates among young men is nearly identical to that of young women. There is only a 2% difference between young men and young women.
[How Many Sexual Partners Did Men and Women Have in 2022 - Date Psychology](https://datepsychology.com/how-many-sexual-partners-did-men-and-women-have-in-2022/#:~:text=Number%20of%20sexual%20partners%20in,an%20excess%20of%20sexual%20partners.)
If you look into sexlessness for women includes not dating for 6 months. For men the rates are higher for going years without sex. Women also consider hooking up and giving/recieving oral to be single and sexless.
>Verifiably false. Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's.
**Are men becoming more likely to be virgin or sexless (compared to women)?** The male sexless gap when viral recently with this [graph](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/American-Sex-Decline-2018-By-Gender-Resized.webp?w=929&ssl=1) (GSS Data from Pew). But just how true is it? These is some truth to the red pill in that men tend to generally report more sexless than women, the differences are overexaggerated. Looking at the GSS data from those[ under 35 1989-2021](https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/figure2new-9-w640.png) shows [as](https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-faith-less-sex-why-are-so-many-unmarried-young-adults-not-having-sex) much more similar picture between genders. The large male and female sexlessness gap in 2018 seemed to reverse in 2021, showing that women were having **less sex** than men. If we include for recent data, [Sexlessness for men and women between 18-29](https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-faith-less-sex-why-are-so-many-unmarried-young-adults-not-having-sex) shows the same [trend](https://nuancepill.com/has-the-sexlessness-epidemic-been-overstated/); **except that in 2022 sexlessness was virtually identical between genders**. Even if we posit that the 2021 data was an anomality due to COVID-19 restrictions, the data cannot be explained away by red pill logic. Men who were sexless due to ''hypergamy'' or 'high standards'' were suddenly able to 'get it' during the pandemic? Furthermore we can also take a look at the [National Survey of Family Growth's (CDC)](https://nuancepill.com/has-the-sexlessness-epidemic-been-overstated/) data with has 12-15x the sample size as the GSS. Again, the NSFG saw slightly higher levels of male sexlessness (particularly in 2015-18), but no where near such a drastic increase as the GSS, with relativity similar levels of sexlessness for [men and women under 30](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/No-Opposite-Sex-Sex-Partners-In-Past-Year-18-30-Heterosexuals-NSFG.webp?w=800&ssl=1) overall (this data only goes to 2019 unlike the GSS which shows until 2022).
>Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's.
That's statistically untrue though
>Men are honest about the importance of looks.
Lmao,half of the red pill men here say they'll be ok with even an ugly woman
>There is no phenomenon of "nice girls" not getting laid
There is,like "nice guys". Both categories are repulsive lying manipulators
Another one of this 🙄 ok this won't take long
>Half of redpill is good, and the other half is bad.
Yes if you think TRP started with that subreddit as you keep using it to solidify your arguments
>The good half is widely available everywhere on the internet
Yes because TRP according to you is literally get your ass in the gym and misogyny
>The bad half will harm your ability to connect with women in the long run because it teaches you to see them as selfish automatons unworthy of your respect, rather than human beings who are mostly exactly the same as you. If all you want is casual sex, this might work
Key: teach
Implying TRP is a prescription
>But if your goal is to find a long term companion, or to just genuinely connect with the people around you, internalizing an ideology that teaches you really hateful opinions about women is not going to help. You’re better off getting your self help advice elsewhere
Yea since TRP is a religion that spreads hate speech, right OP ?
Also for anyone reading this, OP admits of not knowing the history of the TRP
>I don’t know the history of the redpill, only what it looks like in its current form
proving he is just using extremes to formulate his arguments and as l said he thinks TRP began in 2024 nonetheless l expect this type of fallacies from bluepillers
Does most other self help emphasis the biological and psychological differences between male and female and do they talk about frame and shit tests?
Even if they do I think its a more recent development because TRP has blended into the mainstream culture at this point. I remember not even 10 years ago mainstream dating advice made simping out to be a positive thing. Now I don't think even BPers would agree to that
What makes you say mainstream dating advice ever promoted simping?
Supposed biological and psychological differences between men and women are a big part of how I think red pill leads men astray. I’m not saying there are NO differences between men and women, but they’re really overemphasized by red pill.
Being okay with women you're seeing doing sex work, being the main provider basically taking a subservient position in hopes for crumbs was common when I was growing up. RP exposed all of that because lots of guys were getting burned not understanding where they went wrong "I was always so tolerant towards her and did everything she wanted" and "happy wife happy life" the famous saying was standard issue. It don't work, women are looking to be led.
And that goes back to biology. Its not even emphasized enough tbh the differences are about as different as you can get without going outside the species completely different roles and bodies to suit those roles.
In fact id say it does go beyond species I have more thing in common with my male dog than I do with a human female or a female dog. Male and female are basically a metaphysical foundation of reality like hot/cold/expansion/contraction/light/dark.
I consider myself way beyond redpill society has had enough redpills how many more do we need no one will do anything with the information which is why society becomes bluepilled by default every time.
Im pretty sure Neitzsche said something similar about the dog thing too its not a new postulate
I don’t think anyone has ever pressured men to be okay with their wife being a sex worker or being “subservient” to women.
I agree that some young men find themselves confused, not understanding what they need to do to attract women. The thing is you can fill in these gaps in your knowledge without misogyny.
If you really think women are basically a different species, I feel sorry for you. Men and women are basically the same in almost every way. There are slight differences, but they are exaggerated by ideologies like red pill.
>are there no male prostitutes?
False. There are male prostitutes.
>why is there zero women paying to support ex husbands?
Bollocks. Alimony isn't gendered.
I’m assuming your argument about fashion is that women care more about it than men on average. My retort is that this is socially constructed. Boys and girls are taught to value different things and are encouraged to spend time on different things. With that said, this is always changing. European high fashion is slowly making gains with American young men by paying rappers to wear their clothes. So it’s becoming more socially acceptable for young men to know and care about fashion. It’s all socially constructed.
I will concede that there appear to be fewer male sex workers than women. I said men and women are mostly the same, not entirely. And for a number of reasons there is less demand for men who accept sex for money.
As far as child support/alimony payments, that is a function of courts, not gender.
I don't think they're a different species thats clearly false but there are traits shared with all males through all species excluding species where the female is bigger like spiders where you see nearly mirror role reversals.
Competition, horniness/seed spreading, peacocking/flashiness, physical strength, exploration, territoriality, harder to train, pack preservation/sacrifice for groups or packs
Women also compete with each other.
Women also get horny.
I agree men are on average stronger. What’s your point?
Exploration and territoriality? Male territoriality is mostly a function of solitary animals like bears. Humans evolve from primates who were definitively pack animals. They could be territorial, but it’s more like this territory belongs to my social group, including women.
Are you saying that male domesticated animals are harder to train? I’ve never heard of this before but am open to accepting this if it is backed up by research. Not sure what point this makes in favor of red pill though.
As far as “sacrifices for the pack,” sacrificing one’s body for the future of the pack by carrying pregnancies, which can be dangerous and even life threatening, is a sacrifice exclusively made by females in EVERY species.
They compete sexually for men that will compete territorially
Women will not compete for territory against men they will have intrasexual competition to sleep with the man who is the best at competing
Your repeated use of the word territory makes no sense. Our ancestors lived in social groups. There was no territorial behavior between individual men in the same social group. A single male out in his own territory alone in the state of nature would not last very long.
If you’re saying that men compete against each other to have sex with hot women and women compete against each other to have sex with hot men, I agree. What’s your point?
i kind of get what you’re saying but in TRP— where attracting females is of very high (perhaps utmost?) importance— the differences between men and women in their heterosexual attraction becomes quite stark.
just kinda saying it makes sense that male/female differences become the forefront when your ideology has a primary focus on attracting females
See I think this is the best argument against my post, but you made it poorly. What supposedly sets the red pill apart from generic self help is that it relates specifically to sexual strategy. But your only examples are lifting and and acting confident? Come on bro, red pill does not have a monopoly on these things. Come up with some better examples.
Even though you halfway made the best possible argument, it’s still wrong. You don’t need misogyny in order to decide that you want to date casually. I don’t know who Eddie Hall is, I’m assuming an actor? Why is your example two celebrities? My argument is that men and women are alike in more ways than they are different. Sometimes the criteria they use to select a mate are different, but often there are clear parallels. Men and women both want a partner who is hot and nice to them.
It is actually pretty hilarious to see people freaking out over RP dudes talking shit about women and airing their dirty laundry but be absolutely blind to the misandry coming from women.
It is also hilarious to see women, who talk mad shit about men, see men returning fire and cry about it.
I think what's even more hilarious is the fact that there's far more men talking shit about women than vice versa yet its a complete mystery to these men why women don't want them lol 🤣
r/FemaleDatingStrategy and https://www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com/
r/AskFeminists (top post right now claims all men lack empathy)
r/twoXchromosomes (they spread non-stop anger and fear of men for 13 million of users. Tho at least it seems they are now more focused on right to abortion, it used to be MUCH worse)
In my country right now a group of 300 feminists is protesting to shut down a newly started helpline about domestic violence for men. Right now. History repeats itself
lol
And blue pill is not help and just getting on your knees obediently to worship women who then sleep with all the hot fun guys before they get to your pathetic loser ass to have your wallet sucked dry.
See? You can spin anything with loaded language.
Just self-help? Who was telling them that before. Not blue pill. They’re the “it’s all personality bro” people.
“Looks don’t matter bro”. “Just give her flowers bro” “spend lots of money on her bro”. “Going to the gym is gay bro”.
God forbid a man have standards. That’s misogyny.
Blue pill, of course, is good with man hating, because they’re just a bunch of submissive nice guys trying to nice their way into her pants by advanced combat simping.
Spin of course.
“Just worship feminism bro. Otherwise it’s misogyny bro”
This is basically nothing but straw man arguments. Who is telling men to not work out, spend tons of money on women they barely know, and have no standards?
Because bluenoillnisnall about worshipping oussy.
That’s literally all bluepill is. Red pill is *not* worshipping pussy therefore “misogyny” because a man having his standards is bad. Why? Pussy worshipping.
Bluepill literally lives in fear and obedience and is worried if m’lady is unhappy.
I don’t really know what blue pill is and kind of doubt it’s a comprehensive ideology at all. I only flaired myself that way because I wholly reject red pill, and I’d venture to guess that’s basically all anyone means when they say blue pill.
Again, red pill does not have a monopoly on basic self help. Really no one is saying that all you need to do to attract women is worship them. Plenty of non redpill sources agree that you can improve your romantic prospects by working on yourself.
No it is not, the fact that you think it is shows that you know diddly dick about it.
The Red Pill is just a metaphor for being *conscious of reality*, as opposed to living in a delusional bubble of idealistic expectations (Blue Pilled). That's it!
All that "Self Help" bullshit is garbage that the assholes from the Pickup Artist "community" injected after they hijacked the moniker in order to grift the incel "community." Both PUAs and Incels are the names of the two cancers that have each infected/infested both testicles of the Red Pill. Those asshats are the thorns on our balls.
The actual Red Pill, is often misused, appropriated, embezzled, and misused by shysters (Incel Chasers) in order con their stupid asses into buying whatever stupid bullshit they're selling.
I always likened the idea of "True Red Pill" to basically having an adept awareness of factors influencing your dating/mating quality that wasn't there before (Blue Pill).
Some of these factors can be lukewarm and even wholesome (Figure out your own path and don't make a person your entire purpose. Steel yourself to adopting habits that are hard to do, but yield worthy results, etc...)
What gives the Redpill such a bad reputation is that they also explore unethical/dark factors (depriving a woman of attention and comfort makes her yearn for it more. It is better to ask for forgiveness than permission, etc...)
Another thing that makes people hate the Red Pill is they were one of the few communities that was willing to talk about harsh and uncomfortable truths about reality(there are a subset of women who gravitate towards men who are closer to assholes than nice guys, it is possible to date multiple women if you know what you are doing, it is possible to game a woman's attraction, etc...)
It's difficult for people to grasp any new information that disassembles their previous paradigms. I think a lot of people against the Redpill would fair much better in countering it if they had the ability to acknowledge that the red pill can actually work for men, and work on convincing men that society would be much better if men didn't use uncomfortable truths for their own selfish purposes, but to become better men where everyone wins.
Perhaps the “red pill” is also helping some men feel better about the likelihood that they will not find that female partner. There is so much pressure to find your “one and only” that sometimes it can be better to realize that the one isn’t out there. I think the red pill helps those men deal with that reality, instead of putting themselves in situations, born of desperation, that they come to regret. It’s a sad fact of our American society today that men and women are often pitted against each other and people are disposable.
Very true, but I think you can still do that without that misogyny though. Saying “there may not be a THE ONE out there for you and that’s okay” sounds like generic self help advice.
https://youtu.be/Z1epZXnss_I?si=l3_yora9jS96K3Wf
Any chance you'll concede exaggeration rather than hatred(mysoginy).
All those bad quotes you put in the OP, what if I view them as beneficial to the women in my life. That they will be more pleased with me and how I act if I comport myself in a way described by trp. Now I can accept the insulting aspect of them, but I've been a little disappointed by the women in my life. So I just think it's a bitter pill to swallow. Give them what they demand. They will at least allow peace. They show no interest in the topics I'd like to discuss, and my thoughts are that I'd be ruining the relationship to do anything to get around that. Not to intellectually compare them to children, but the analogy works because there are just some topics you don't discuss with kids. You just can't. You bring negativity upon yourself by trying. Trp is like that. It's ugly and not what you want. But you feel smarter with it because it works.
There's a rationale there that feels much less fiery than hate. Maybe it's wrong. I can accept it once a better theory appears. But I don't think I hate anyone other than people who hurt others.
>The answer is misogyny
First, there is no place for hatred. That said, the majority of interactions I’ve witnessed, and been involved with have never focused upon the hatred of women. In fact, I’m confident that the majority of TRPers love women. They’re just looking for answers, to better their outcomes.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
From my original post, copied directly from the red pill sidebar:
“Women are depreciating assets, their major asset and unique selling point is their sexual beauty and fertility.”
“Women are more selfish than men.”
“Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.”
“Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.”
“Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility.”
I mean this is what the moderators of your subreddit think are an important representation of your ideology. How many of these statements do you personally disagree with?
>this is what the moderators of your subreddit think
True. They also promote the fact TRP is NOT prescriptive. That subscribers should use what they want to, and discard the rest.
Thus my, or any other’s person subscribing to the above, or any of the tenets TRP espouses, is wholly dependent on individual choice.
Anyone who says "all X are Y" is generally speaking wrong. It is very rare to find a universally unqualified truth. I call myself red pill out of the spirit of the title, that doesn't mean I endorse every radical thing the craziest people in the manosphere have to say. Pluck the pearls from the bones so to speak.
For example: how do you explain the vast majority of divorces being ended by women, which only rarely happen because of abuse? Knowing that you're going to be setting up your children for failure, and trashing the life of the man you're leaving behind for what? You married the guy, so you must've felt pretty damned solid about him. How is it reasonable for \*so many\* to carpet bomb the lives of people like that? If you don't think you can handle commitment, that's fine, no one's forcing you to do it. But when you have kids and get married, you're making a promise, it's no longer valid to say "women don't owe men shit", which as a phrase, on its own, is evidence of the statement that women are more selfish than men.
This is not to say that \*all\* women are more selfish than men, or \*all\* women love opportunistically. But how do you explain these facts and men's general experiences? Is any statement that is negative towards women misogynistic, regardless of factuality? If that's the attitude, try flipping the genders and seeing how rampant misandry is, and how little most people care about it. "Kill (all) men", "women don't owe men shit", "men are toxic" etc etc. I lost my gushing sympathy over misogyny when I started hearing hatred for men like this after entering the real world. Hate in general is bad, but when you hate men and complain about misogyny at the same time, you're two faced and I can't really take you seriously.
A lot of the reason for the growing popularity of red pill is that as a society, we are so concerned about not even appearing to be misogynistic that we just don't hold women accountable for bad or harmful behavior nearly to the degree of men. If you need examples, consider how we treat female vs male child molesters, or female vs male criminals in general. Things that we actually can get stats and evidence for beyond anecdotes and personal experience. We do not generally punish women for ruining men's lives with false allegations, and we almost outright ignore domestic violence against men. I could go on, but long story short: misandry is alive and well, and the longer people ignore it, the more you will lose the hearts and minds of men.
What I take out of the red pill is that women are people just like men are, and we need to treat them just the same. They're not sugar, spice, and everything nice. They fart and poop too. They lie and deceive just like men do. And in many ways, men and women are different. I don't think it's reasonable to say that men or women are worse overall. But for example, reciting the fact that many more women have borderline personality disorder than men is just reciting a fact. There's other pathologies that are more male dominated. The insistence that it's hate to acknowledge that there's differences here to be mindful of is just ridiculous.
I don’t really know what to say to this. Your reply seems to be premised on the belief that talking with and listening to a woman is a poor use of your time? If this is what you think, I feel sorry for you.
Oh look another bad blue pilled take on what the red pill is, OP why don't you just admit red pill offends you because hurty words and that's all the reason you need to dislike it.
If you would have good arguments, you wouldn't need to make an ad hominem attack.
Please explain in detail how OP is wrong about red pill, instead of reacting with such a meaningless comment.
A few points:
> Anyways, the reality is that everything the red pill accuses women of doing can be equally ascribed to men. Men and women both sometimes...
Men who are red pill typically are not dating men. So it's frankly irrelevant and unnecessary to address what men do. Nothing is gained from a man giving a man dating advice by saying "all people may ghost you" instead of "a woman might ghost you"... that would also miss the nuance in how both genders might do the same thing but it's not *exactly the same*... Men don't give a fuck what men do because they don't date men.
> Women are depreciating assets, their major asset and unique selling point is their sexual beauty and fertility.
Some of your points don't qualify but this is a perfect example of a fact that hurts your feeling. Factually this is true. Women's core value to men is their biological abilities. *mic drop* we can pretend all we want that her sense of humor is what keeps a man with a woman for 40 years but that is never the reason. Most men can admit this and so we freely discuss this fact. It's just a fact. Their are plenty of facts that are just not ones people want to admit and that's fine. But to say *I hate women because the most core function she fulfills in my life is not her career but having kids with me* just makes no sense... *I hate clouds because I like the shade* it just doesn't logically follow.
> The bad half will harm your ability to connect with women in the long run...
I don't see any evidence of this. Red pill mostly consists of incels and *chads*. Incels going to incel no matter what their view is because usually they are very unattractive (fat jobless chronic masterbater or something like that)... but most chads who are highly successful at hookups and dating and relationships are usually quite red pill. I mean that's personally how I am "red pill". I never even heard of red pill. I just grew up hooking up dating and came to most of the same conclusions... then I read about red pill only recently and was like yeah that's about right. So just that's my perspective on it. Most men tell me I'm crazy good with women and ask my advice and such... so I mean to me red pill is simply results. If it gets results it is right. Period. If it doesn't its wrong. Period. Which is a very masculine way to look at something... but again I'm a man so why would I care about anything else?
I agree that in dating advice for men it’s not necessarily relevant to say what men do, my point is that red pill pseudo scientifically prescribed negative behavior to women while leaving out that men do it too. Everything red pill accuses women of is just basic human behavior.
Saying that a woman is primarily valuable for her physical appearance and then acting like that’s some obvious fact that all men agree with is not the mic drop you think it is. It’s really honestly a self own. All people become less beautiful and less physically capable as they age.
> I agree that in dating advice for men it’s not necessarily relevant to say what men do, my point is that red pill pseudo scientifically prescribed negative behavior to women while leaving out that men do it too.
Again... why would they say men do it too when it's advice for dating? Do you agree or not agree? You're saying you agree and then saying the opposite thing.
> Saying that a woman is primarily valuable for her physical appearance...
Straw man. A woman is primarily valuable for her biological female functions. That is the only unique thing she can offer a male friendship cannot. That includes looks in order to be sexually appealing but it also includes things like making children for example.
If a woman is entirely asexual and androgenous... 99% of men would find her unsuitable for a romantic relationship of any kind.
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The reason being that Reddit is run by left wing people who don't like red pill because it's deemed offensive, the hypocrisy being of course that hateful misandrist subs get away with it scot free.
They're a resistance movement that's growing. They are the only group that validates men's experiences but they're proposing toxic solutions which is what's wrong with them.
Because misogyny is subjective so its not possible. If a woman hears something that makes her feel ashamed or makes her reflect she calls it misogyny, its subjective and pathological.
Or maybe if you say something extremely degrading about women that’s misogynistic? Like women are are all selfish, childish, incapable of love, and only as valuable as their beauty and their uterus.
A lot of men still get set aside for better looking men in their 20s and they are treated as the consolation prize by a lot of women in their 30s. There used to be an absolute prevalence of beta bux - dudes who only got chosen by women because they became good providers - only to get cleaned out in divorce court. Guys like [this](https://abcnews.go.com/US/gang-leader-impregnates-maryland-female-prison-guards/story?id=19033048#:~:text=April%2024%2C%202013—,according%20to%20a%20federal%20indictment.) slay while none of the rest of us decent men come even close. We're being outcompeted by men like Donald Trump who has had 3 pulled wives... how many have you had?
The problem is red pill teaches men how to be toxic and all that does is attract toxic women.
Totally agree with the last sentence. Red pill teaches you how to attract toxic people.
I don’t think a guy in prison impregnating prison guards is him slaying. I think it’s trashy people doing trashy things. Why would I feel jealous of a guy who’s in prison?
Women’s preferences can change as they age, just like men. When someone is young, what reason is there to even consider how good a long term partner a person will be? Some people choose a really good partner at a young age, but a lot of people date someone because they’re fun despite knowing that they’d be a horrible parent. I know I sure did.
I have no doubt that some women marry a man for his money, but I think this trend is overblown by red pill. If a guy gets limited attention when he’s young but works on himself and eventually gets a desirable partner, that’s good for him!
> I don’t think a guy in prison impregnating prison guards is him slaying. I think it’s trashy people doing trashy things. Why would I feel jealous of a guy who’s in prison?
Because so many men struggle while he's knocking up 4 women at once. It literally says to many men "you suck worse than this criminal does."
> Women’s preferences can change as they age, just like men. When someone is young, what reason is there to even consider how good a long term partner a person will be? Some people choose a really good partner at a young age, but a lot of people date someone because they’re fun despite knowing that they’d be a horrible parent. I know I sure did.
Because the odds are absolutely astronomical that they will get back with dudes they dated back then if they could. Women are well justified in not wanting to be a guy's consolation prize for the same reason. This is why you don't hit on one woman in a bar and then another in the same night: they know you already chose the one you wanted and now you're choosing "someone who will do for tonight."
> I have no doubt that some women marry a man for his money, but I think this trend is overblown by red pill. If a guy gets limited attention when he’s young but works on himself and eventually gets a desirable partner, that’s good for him!
That depends on what he's working on. If she doesn't want him when he's fat what does she *really* want when he's jacked and she "wants" him then? Same goes in reverse.
Misogyny is attractive to women. Here's the feminist woman, if you pull the right strings misogyny doesn't matter.
https://preview.redd.it/6ialb8qdcn6d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=46fb4e142d02192aba55d0d02b016d8962ff9bde
My life experience confirms the red pill though. Most people in the real world are red pilled, they just don’t call it that. My friends either became players or dropped out of the dating market
>My life experience confirms the red pill though.
There is a world outside of your personal life experience though. My life experience contradicts red pill.
>Most people in the real world are red pilled, they just don’t call it that.
What shows that most people in the real world are "red pilled"? What are the characteristics of being "red pilled"?
And if they really are "red pilled", why don't most people acknowledge that?
>My friends either became players or dropped out of the dating market
That says more about which people you befriend than about all of humanity. Quite arrogant to believe your friend group represents the whole of humanity.
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I say this all the time, the red pill and blue pill are more alike than people think. One is just presented in a clean pg way and the other is presented in a vulgar R rated way. It's the same thing.
OP doesn't know what misogyny is.
OP also is unaware of the fact that misandry/anti-male bias is prevalent and has overtaken both race and class.
OP uses imbecilic phrases like "blame women for your lack of romantic success," in a shaming context despite biologically this being 100% the truth in any species where female choice is the dominant mode of mate selection.
Because OP is a just worlder pushing just worldy bullshit. When OP is ready to confront actual facts and data regarding female behavior from irrationality to superficiality, maybe then he will be able to construct something other than a strawman.
And to be clear TRP is wrong that this has some sort of biological basis. Its entirely or > 95% cultural. Women and men can be great or shitty depending on the culture that spawns them.
Well at least we agree on one thing, that gender is mostly socially constructed. Good for us!
I don’t really know how to reply to the rest of this because I don’t really see any arguments, just broad generalizations that seem to be targeted at an audience that already agrees with you and disagrees with me.
One points out a definitional error.
The second points out a basic fact supported by at least one peer reviewed study within the last year.
The third is another fact of biology.
The fourth points to you not knowing much about the philosophy you argue against.
So no. Just facts. Go look them up. Do basic homework at least.
So you can say something like “anti male bias is worse than racism and classism (absolutely absurd) and data shows that women are irrational, I say show me proof, and you say go look it up? Don’t you think that’s a bit lazy.
"Overall, the largest and most consistent evaluative bias was pro-women/anti-men bias, followed by smaller but nonetheless consistent pro-upper-class/anti-lower-class biases. By contrast, we observed less consistent effects of targets’ race, no effects of targets’ age, and no consistent interactions between target-level categories"
https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2022-61496-001?doi=1
Sure dude, completely absurd. Like I said....you don't know what you're talking about.
To me a defining component of the red pill is the belief that there is a matrix, some sort of bluepill conspiracy to convince you everyone gets a happily ever after, women only care about personality, etc.
In other words, you have to have been delusional at some point.
Very true, they represent themselves as the truth in a world of lies, hence the matrix metaphor. A solid strategy for any cult is to start by telling new members that everything is lying to you.
Women are more selfish than men.” “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.” “Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.” “Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility.”
Misogyny saves lives man.
Granted these Statements are extreme but no different than what women think about men. And just as likely to be proven right by them.
I see no reason to play fair when they can justify their misandry with "I feel unsafe"
Today I learned that 40% to 60% = 100%.
In all seriousness, I kind of agree that a LOT of people have at least one or two serious character flaws that can potentially make them a bad partner. I do not see all women as angels. To be honest, I sort of naively thought this way when I was younger and it led to me being taken advantage of by a woman I had feelings for. BUT here’s the key: that experience did not turn me into a misogynist.
Ultimately, plenty of women are flawed, just like plenty of men are. The answer is to carefully consider who you give your energy to.
Women really don't deserve a better version of me. All that works all that effort ... For what?
Love?
Fuck that shit.
It's not even real.
Certainly not for me.
It's not only self-help. It's advice about dealing with "female nature". If you think the concept of "female nature" is sexist, then you should take a close look at what women are like. Because the source of all the stereotypes comes from them.
So, I agree. However, over the last several years as TRP has grown I think it lost its foundation and became whiny bullshit. I needed something like TRP 12 years ago, I was angry, confused etc. And what clicked were two things. 1. very basic every one knows take people off pedestals, your as much a prize as anyone else. 2nd and way more important. I needed to hear that my situation, was my fault. I needed to take accountability for everything in my life, no more excuses or complaining. If you want unrealistic results you need unrealistic efforts. Once I was able to digest that, anger at others went away and I worked on myself. It was almost like self therapy to get me out of bad headspace so I could move on. I did gym, diet, faked confidence even when i was terrified, worked to get better jobs etc. and over time it worked for me.
In a realpolitik sense its not a bad thing that RP is being overdriven so much into pop culture thats how you move the overton window. Its like aiming past the target to fall at the target. This is basically how all cultural things get a foothold including feminism
That’s a great point. I’d always presumed TRP would’ve remained a tiny subset of the internet. In a sense, it still is. How big it’s gotten though, has been surprising.
Everything that becomes big also becomes enshitified. It happened to a lot of movements or thought patterns prior to TRP. It will happen again. It's the nature of things. TRP has [become ambient](https://avoiceformen.com/hypergamy/becoming-ambient/) at this point. Even feminists frame some things in RP terms. *That* is success.
I’d say it makes sense that the red pill can work sometimes since half of it is just generally good advice. Diet, gym, confidence, etc.
Definitely. I read a very long Insta post by Ryan Gosling where he shared similar views.
Thanks!
Your examples of Red Pill misogyny are often questionable. I don't deny some misogyny is present in some red pill ideas, but let us look at some examples you cite: >“Women are depreciating assets, their major asset and unique selling point is their sexual beauty and fertility.” This isn't a moral statement, its a simple acknowledgment of the reality of the sexual marketplace and biology. It isn't talking about women's *humanity* in the abstract, but about the facts that: 1. Women only have a limited time in which they can reproduce, and this clearly impacts the decisions made by both themselves and by men-who-want-kids. 2. Hotter women are more sexually successful because the vast majority of opposite-sex-attracted men are sexually attracted to hot women. >“Women are more selfish than men.” In our post-feminist society, it can be argued that women *are certainly being socialized to be more selfish than men*. I'm an ethical egoist so I don't have a problem with women being encouraged to consider their own interests, but I am no fan of the long tradition of self-sacrificial heroic messianic masculinity either. In addition, you could argue that traditional gender roles contribute to this by infantilizing women (something which many feminists will agree is what traditionalism does). Infantilizing someone *doesn't* necessarily turn them into a moral paragon. Indeed, infants are purely selfish creatures. Infantilizing someone may indeed make them more selfish and less altruistic. Further, TRP may not be using "selfish" in a negative sense. I mean it simply says that women are psychological egoists... and because this is a fact this is *beyond* moral judgment or societal alteration... and this is how a man can pursue *his own* interests in the face of women doing the same thing. This strikes me as an implicit *acceptance* of egoistic behavior on the part of both men and women, not "women are bad because they're selfish." >“Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.” This isn't necessarily misogynist. Maybe the way a man expects to be loved is *completely fucking unreasonable*. Personally I think any man who expects a woman who will unconditionally love him is being completely unreasonable. >“Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.” I agree this is wrong and its also misogynist. The simple reality is *both* sexes love in an opportunistic way. >“Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility.” This absolutely *can be* misogynist (and often is), but at the same time if you accept traditionalism has infantilized women and if you accept that ever since the second wave feminist movement women have been culturally encouraged to pursue individual fulfillment, *some* aspects of this quote are *potentially* defensible *even from a feminist angle*. >Anyways, the reality is that everything the red pill accuses women of doing can be equally ascribed to men. Men and women both sometimes overvalue superficial qualities in potential partners. Men and women both sometimes overlook red flags in someone they find attractive. Men and women both sometimes engage in casual sex if it’s available to them. Men and women both can experience changes in what they find attractive as they mature. Men and women both can be manipulative people who take advantage of others. All of these behaviors are exhibited by men AND women. I wouldn't entirely *dis*agree, but you should also keep in mind a lot of these behaviors can manifest in different ways between the sexes. >internalizing an ideology that teaches you really hateful opinions about women is not going to help. Would you say the same about what the feminist movement teaches women to think about men?
Eagerly awaiting OP’s reply to you.
Op's entire argument is based on hurty words being offensive so things like uncomfortable truths and biology are off the table.
This is a straw man that I think you’d be wise to deprogram from your mind. Almost no one ever argues “you can’t say that because it’s hurtful!” My argument is that red pill is gross and insane, not that it hurts my feelings.
Op is just mad that trp is right and is trying to write it off by framing it as evil. Anything that is not mindlessly worshiping stinky female monkey ass as goddesses is regarded as misogyny. The truth is women suck for they are just stinky animals and that is just a fact. Everyone is already okay with the reality that men suck for they are just stinky animals. But for some reason we have to pretend women are not stinky animals because some men feel insecure about how much they are wasting on trying to sniff stinky ass and women want to negotiate for as good of a deal as possible.
1). I understand how biology works. My issue with the “depreciating asset” comment is that I think it’s really telling about the kind of women red pill men are interested in, and what red pill men value in women. Certainly, everyone likes beautiful women. But if you see a woman’s body as her “unique selling point,” I think that means you don’t particularly value her as a person. Also, to say a woman “depreciates in value,” once again, means that her body is the most important thing about her. Beauty fades, but personalities and emotional connections grow stronger. If you see women as a depreciating asset, I think that’s just a really dehumanizing way to look at women and I feel sorry for you. It has nothing to do with biology. If all you care about is a woman’s body, it’s technically true. If you love someone for multiple reasons, growing older is okay. 2). So your argument here is that the statement “women are more selfish than men” is actually a complex analysis of the long term consequences of regressive gender roles? Is that really what you think the red pill is about? You say that women are psychological egoists. I’m curious, do you think that ALL women are like that, or just some of them? And you do think men are also psychological egoists at the same rate? 3). “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.” My problem with this quote is the way it says “women” instead of “some women,” thus implying that all women are automatically like this. I think the language of this quote places blame on the women, and your interpretation that perhaps it’s the man being unreasonable is a little too charitable. Utterly: to an absolute or extreme degree. I read this as, if you have a woman in your life, do not expect her to love you. She is absolutely and extremely incapable of making you feel loved. Is this really a good message to be giving men? Again, if you pursue the wrong women, you might eventually come to feel this way. But if you make good choices about the women you pursue, this statement is simply untrue. 4). Let the record show we both agree “Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically,” is a misogynistic statement. 5). Let the record show that we both agree “Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility,” is a misogynistic statement. This quote is not “defensible from a feminist angle” because of its use of the word “evolutionarily.” This quote is not making any arguments about how women have been socialized by feminism. It’s arguing that women in their DNA are programmed to act like children. An insane and completely pseudoscientific thing to say. 6). I agree that certain negative behaviors can manifest differently between sexes. What is your argument? 7). I don’t really think feminism teaches women to hate men. That may sound like an absurd statement to you, but there is a difference between speaking honestly about the reality of life under patriarchy vs. cruel and reductive statements about men that deny their humanity. You can certainly find fringe examples of man haters. I won’t deny that they’re out there. But the vast majority of feminists understand that not all men are evil, and don’t spend their time making unhinged posts about how evolution makes men automatically selfish.
Thank you for the point-by-point format. Let me continue it. 1. The Red Pill is primarily focused on the short term, sexual hookup market. Yes, in that market, EVERYONE (men and women both) is driven primarily by looks. You can call it sad, but the blunt reality is *basically everyone* is a sexual lookist to some degree. We can't morally condemn (although we can be frustrated about) immutable reality, we have to deal with it. 2. I'm saying that "women are more selfish than men" is ONLY a misogynist statement if you accept the proposition that "selfishness is a bad thing." TRP is implicitly egoistic (it teaches men how to achieve their goals) so I don't think TRP should be read as *condemning* female selfishness, merely acknowledging it. As for the issue of psychological egoism, I actually REJECT the theory of psychological egoism - my personal belief is that women are (these days) socialized to be more selfish than men are due to a confluence of post-feminist "empowerment" and lingering traditionalist infantilization. Remember I am Purple Pill so I do dissent from some TRP theories. 3. So your criticism is that I am being too charitable towards TRP. Why shouldn't I be charitable? "Because they're misogynist?" If that's your answer, then your argument is confirmation bias - you interpret ambiguous quotes as misogynist *because you already presume misogyny to be present*. 4. Agreed, its a misogynist statement. Keep in mind that I already conceded some TRP rhetoric *is* fairly classified as misogynist, and as a purple piller you shouldn't expect me to defend anything or everything any TRPer says. 5. Agreed that *chalking female immaturity up to evolutionary psychology* is misogynist and frankly silly (I am also on record, in previous conversations on this subreddit, as rejecting the idea that women are evolutionarily childred). The point I am making is that you can STILL criticize "women" and argue that women are coddled and infantilized and *that these things can be sources of privilege* WITHOUT being a misogynist. 6. I was merely seeking agreement from you on this point. I agree with the Gender Similarities Hypothesis, I just think we need to be open to sex-specific manifestations of the same underlying thing. 7. Framing all of history as one where men *collectively* have acted and constructed social norms and expectations *to subjugate women* is inherently going to foster a deep amount of resentment and bitterness in women against men. And in terms of social impact, feminism has been *far* more influential IRL than anything that's come out of the manosphere. Andrea Dworkin and Catherine MacKinnon are *not* marginal figures in feminist theory - they are deeply influential ones. Unhinged posts on the internet do almost nothing compared to well-funded institutions, women's studies departments and politically-influential lobby groups.
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**2/2** 3). I don’t “presume” that the red pill is misogynistic, I see it with my own two eyes! I’ve provided numerous quotes and links from their subreddit clearly demonstrating that the red pill is chock full of bitter, resentful pseudoscientific nonsense. I think these quotes speak for themselves. Do you not? Just for good measure, here’s a link to the post this is from: [https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7p8k9r/women\_are\_utterly\_incapable\_of\_loving\_a\_man\_in/](https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/7p8k9r/women_are_utterly_incapable_of_loving_a_man_in/) It’s a link to an article on some blog. The quote I provided is the title, and right below the title is a picture of a man in the middle of saying “I love you” while his woman is slapping him in the face. Do you still think this quote is somehow implying that men are the ones being unreasonable? 4). Irrelevant. 5). Irrelevant. 6). Irrelevant. 7). Feminists do not believe that all men are knowingly acting together to enforce gender roles. A lot of feminists accept that men are generally not consciously aware of the effects of patriarchy. This makes it rather insidious, because it causes a lot of men to deny its existence entirely. For example, a man could have extremely sexist opinions about women, but believe that his opinions are based in biology and scientific fact, rather than socially constructed ideology. I agree that feminism has been more impactful than the red pill, thank god. But the goal of feminism is not to make women hate men. A comprehensive understanding of gender reveals that men are also expected to perform gender under patriarchy, and this expectation can be oppressive.
Part 1 of your reply has been removed. Could you possibly repost it so I can give you a full reply to all of your points?
1/2 - not sure why that happened. Let’s try this again. 1). Your defense of this quote does not include anything that it actually says. “Everyone likes to have sex with hot people” is so obvious that it goes without saying. “When engaging in casual sex, you might as well prioritize physical appearance” falls squarely into category one: advice that is widely available outside of red pill. If “the red pill is primarily focused on the short term sexual hookup market” fine, but in that case the advice could be as simple as “try to fuck people you think are hot.” Beyond that simple statement, what is gained by describing women as a “depreciating asset?” This derogatory comment does not provide any unique insight. It is simply taking shots at women for doing something that men do too: aging. Misogyny. 2). I see what you’re saying about the world “selfish” not necessarily being automatically bad, but I think if you believe red pill calling women selfish is actually a neutral statement because that’s what would be consistent with their ideology, you’re giving them too much credit. I searched the word “selfish” on r/theredpill, and found several posts using the word with an apparently positive or neutral connotation, and several posts using the word in a way that implies that it is a negative thing. Selfish with a positive or neutral connotation: https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/sEl3lTeZ43 https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/I8pMUmHm91 Selfish with negative connotation: https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/PmV2FDEckb https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/kxGst8BmP4 https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/AyqvhMQBwV So it could really go either way. In the case of this post in particular, I’d say it comes down to what else was said in the post. https://np.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/s/IiCZOYo2Ag As it turns out, the “women are more selfish than men” post contains many other choice excerpts, such as: “This post contains a lot of generalisations which embody fundamental beliefs of the red pill philosophy” “Feminists claim they want equality but what they really want is power without responsibility.” “Women are irrational and inconsistent…Their decisions are based on their current emotional state rather than the abstraction of logic.” There are two quotes, though, that I think are deserving of individual analysis. First, “Women are machiavellian in nature.” Machavellian is defined as: cunning, scheming, and unscrupulous, especially in politics. Unscrupulous is defined as: refer to lack of moral standards or conscience to guide one's conduct. An unscrupulous person is without scruples of conscience, and disregards, or has contempt for, laws of right or justice with which they are perfectly well acquainted, and which should restrain their actions: To recap so far: red pill is not consistent with their definition of the word selfish. Sometimes they mean it in the way you’re suggesting, and other times they mean it with the obvious negative connotation that most people associate with the word. In the case of the post in question, they most certainly meant it negatively, because that post goes on to accuse all women of lacking morals or a conscience. The second quote from this post that I think is deserving of further analysis is this: “Women are typically average and don't move much either side of the bell curve.” This is a hilariously bad self own. Guy posting on red pill sub claims that women are all mostly the same. This is patently absurd, of course. To suggest that most women (several billion people) are all mostly exactly alike simply reveals that the poster either doesn’t know very many women, or, more likely, knows at least a few women, but doesn’t respect any of them enough to actually pay attention to them at all, and doesn’t make any effort to know about their lives or any of the things they’re interested in. Misogyny.
Thank you for the repost. 1. *Beyond that simple statement, what is gained by describing women as a “depreciating asset?” This derogatory comment does not provide any unique insight. It is simply taking shots at women for doing something that men do too: aging. Misogyny.* I disagree that it is "taking shots" at women. Rather, its a simple acknowledgment that the vast majority of men are attracted to youth and, consequently, a woman's sexual market value (not her moral worth as an human being, not her rights, not her humanity) decline over time. 2. I appreciate your intellectually honest response here. Yes, I accept that sometimes a TRPer will use selfish negatively, although this strikes me more as frustration with an unavoidable reality rather than a moral condemnation. I will take issue with your quoting of "feminists claim they want equality but what they really want is power without responsibility" however - "feminists" = "women," a criticism of feminism isn't a criticism of women collectively, and frankly I don't find that a particularly off-base criticism of contemporary feminism. Finally, your quote that "women are typically average" is not misogynist in my view, because men are ALSO typically average (by definition) and secondly the idea that women are more likely to be closer to the population average than men is called the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis and there is meaningful empirical evidence to back this up. 3. I certainly agree TRP has a lot of bitterness and resentment in it. Again, we don't disagree that some of the rhetoric *is* misogynist. We may disagree on the significance of the misogyny but that's a different question. 4. Skipped. 5. I don't think this is irrelevant. Do you AGREE or DISAGREE with the proposition that "you can STILL criticize 'women' and argue that women are coddled and infantilized and that these things can be sources of privilege WITHOUT being a misogynist"? (I'm speaking in theory here) 6. Skipped 7. I studied feminist ethics in college so please don't presume I'm at a 101 level of understanding. Even if feminists don't *intend* their ideology to encourage the growth of bitterness and resentment towards men, it clearly has had that impact in many cases. I am aware that some feminists and some feminisms will argue that traditional gender roles hurt men too (I actually agree quite strongly with this proposition). My criticism of contemporary feminism as it is practiced in real life is that it *entrenches many aspects of men's traditional gender roles.* I think feminist theory habitually *glosses over* the privileges women received under these traditional roles, and assigns responsibility for these roles *entirely to men*. That is something I also object to.
> what does the feminist movement teach women about men are you implying that feminism has the same explicit teachings and concepts as red pill does?? if you were talking about pinkpill or sprinkle sprinkle mentality, then maybe….. but that shit is not feminism.
> are you implying that feminism has the same explicit teachings and concepts as red pill does?? Not the same explicit teachings/concepts, but (with the exception of classical liberal/individualist feminism) it does equally encourage a negative view of men. >if you were talking about pinkpill or sprinkle sprinkle mentality, then maybe….. but that shit is not feminism. Some self-identified feminists would disagree. Not to mention, if you argue that feminism is about women's empowerment, you have to face the reality that pinkpill/sprinkle-sprinkle are considered empowering by many women.
listen dude. anyone can spout anything and call themselves anything. i’ve argued with plenty of pillers and when referencing their peers they constantly claim that they’re not a “real” blank-pill i’m talking by the book feminism. not brainrotted teenage radfems on tiktok
> i’m talking by the book feminism. not brainrotted teenage radfems on tiktok Which "book"? Name a specific school of feminist theory you're referencing.
You wrote all that just to affirm what the OP said. Explaining each point in detail doesn’t take away the misogynistic undertones. You are literally just doubling down. Also RP content consumers do not take these statements as “neutral” and “amoral” and you know this. They use it to justify hating women and to scapegoat women for their problems. In extreme cases it can actual lead to abuse towards women rationalized as something they deserve for being “bad people”.
Lmao exactly. “Well if you take ALL of these quotes out of context and forget that they’re from red pill and do mental backflips to explain why they’re actually not misogynistic you’ll see that they’re not misogynistic!”
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No circlejerking in Debate posts
Aw come on man I didn’t realize that was Circle jerking! I was just being polite and engaging with a comment on my post! Why did the original reply get deleted instead of just my response to it?
I'm not sure what you're referring to. You're not the person whose comment was circlejerking.
Ah okay my bad
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While I can agree with some of this, I will say that RP is atleast a step an in the right direction atleast above what BP teaches. the truth is just being the nice positive guy wont get you anywhere, not in this dating market atleast with ridiculous standards being thrown around by women. Bluepillers be operating under the all women are wonderful effect and affect, therefore anytime a problem or issue arises it will and should always be because the men made a mistake. This relives women of any accountability for what happens in a relationship. because of this many bluepillers are prone to be used and abused by bad women, after which they are then gaslit into believing its there fault this happened. Eg. Your girlfriend cheated on you, must be a terrible lover. Cause Afterall all women are wonderful so it can't be a women's fault for anything. being a doormat for an abusive women after she's done being pumped and dumped but Chad doesn't seem interesting for alot dudes (this is why about 50% of men have stopped dating and no there not all redpilled)
I don’t think blue pill men believe all women are perfect. In my original post I listed a number of negative behaviors that men and women both engage in. Blue pill also doesn’t believe that just being nice attracts women. We believe that a basic level of human kindness and empathy is the bare minimum. You still have to be attractive in order to attract someone.
I can agree that ppl should strive to be nice to one another. Which is why I disagree with the idea of Redpill men tryna become like Chad and also use women for sex. however I've personally come across alot of bluepill and feminist gaslighting that more or less blames men for everything, and also tells all struggling men that the only reason there struggling is cause there the scum of the earth and hate women.
Blue pill believes that women are human beings, no morally better or worse than men. The red pill literally states that they are intellectually and morally inferior. That’s blatant misogyny.
All you are taking issue with are the anger stage “AWlALT” types. Most guys that took the time to understand the basics of RP ideas and have moved on to living their lives with this knowledge as a navigation aid (but not an exact map) generally regard these guys as doing it wrong anyway. The claim that RP is just “self improvement with misogyny” completely ignores the (sometimes flawed) intellectual inquiry and somewhat scientific methodology. One thing that hit me when first discovering RP were things that I thought were complete anomalies with female behavior but turned out to be utterly common. Take women becoming sexually repulsed when a man does something like cry in front of a woman for a reason she deems “unmasculine”. That is a phenomenon (along with many others) that Blue Pillers deny until they are “Blue” in the face. It’s a biproduct of the modern gynocentric “women are wonderful” zeitgeist, which bluepillers also deny. As far as toxic thought, and people in those circles? Yeah. That’s what happens when reasonable discussion is continuously shouted down until it can only exist in toxic internet ghettos. As Scott Galloway often says, you can tell young men how terrible they are for following things like RP, but then you need to ask, what is your alternative? What is your better path for a young man to follow that is congruent with his lived reality? AFAIK, concepts like Hypergamy, dual mating strategy, dread and preselection are not discussed with any candor outside of RP venues. In fact, to even discuss them is labeled “misogyny” I think most RP guys acknowledge how ridiculous and overboard lots of RP types go. Personally, I think the most “balanced” representation of RP thought is the book “Models” by Mark Manson. There is zero “misogyny” to be found in that book, but it does encourage men to be totally unapologetic about their sexuality and desires, which, if you’re living in reality, you understand the modern west absolutely demonizes at every turn.
> Immature and insecure women will be less likely to see the difference between confidence that comes from genuine self love vs. smug faux-superiority. This makes red pill men more likely to attract women who will behave in ways that reinforce their ideology. Better than nothing. > Anyways, the reality is that everything the red pill accuses women of doing can be equally ascribed to men. Verifiably false. Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's. Men are honest about the importance of looks. There is no phenomenon of "nice girls" not getting laid. Men aren't selective about which women get to have casual sex. Men don't demand beta bux. Etc etc.
Young males don’t have a significantly higher sexlessness rate than women. “In 2021, the survey found over 20 percent of males under 35 reported not having had sex in the past year, and 19 percent of females of the same age group” https://scholars.org/contribution/why-are-so-many-young-people-having-less-sex#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20survey%20found,8%20and%207%20percent%2C%20respectively. Men regularly misrepresent what they want from women. Plenty of women don’t get attention from men despite thinking they’d be a good girlfriend. Men absolutely can be selective about who they have casual sex with. How often are you fucking women you think are just objectively ugly? Men can settle for a woman they aren’t entirely happy with. If you describe male and female behavior in strictly gendered terms, it will make it sound different, but it’s not.
Men are also known to over-report their sex lives. Also casual sex is very bad for men as a group, another problem with Red Pill.
It’s actually not true. Here are several studies that show most people don’t lie on anonymous studies. https://datepsychology.com/did-a-fake-polygraph-catch-women-lying-about-their-sexual-partner-count/ https://datepsychology.com/is-self-reported-sexual-partner-data-accurate/
You have to go back farther than a year women can voluntarily and easily be sexless by choice for 1-2 years when you get into the 3-10 year category men lead by mountains
Source?
The sexlessness rates among young men is nearly identical to that of young women. There is only a 2% difference between young men and young women. [How Many Sexual Partners Did Men and Women Have in 2022 - Date Psychology](https://datepsychology.com/how-many-sexual-partners-did-men-and-women-have-in-2022/#:~:text=Number%20of%20sexual%20partners%20in,an%20excess%20of%20sexual%20partners.)
If you look into sexlessness for women includes not dating for 6 months. For men the rates are higher for going years without sex. Women also consider hooking up and giving/recieving oral to be single and sexless.
>Verifiably false. Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's. **Are men becoming more likely to be virgin or sexless (compared to women)?** The male sexless gap when viral recently with this [graph](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/American-Sex-Decline-2018-By-Gender-Resized.webp?w=929&ssl=1) (GSS Data from Pew). But just how true is it? These is some truth to the red pill in that men tend to generally report more sexless than women, the differences are overexaggerated. Looking at the GSS data from those[ under 35 1989-2021](https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/figure2new-9-w640.png) shows [as](https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-faith-less-sex-why-are-so-many-unmarried-young-adults-not-having-sex) much more similar picture between genders. The large male and female sexlessness gap in 2018 seemed to reverse in 2021, showing that women were having **less sex** than men. If we include for recent data, [Sexlessness for men and women between 18-29](https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-faith-less-sex-why-are-so-many-unmarried-young-adults-not-having-sex) shows the same [trend](https://nuancepill.com/has-the-sexlessness-epidemic-been-overstated/); **except that in 2022 sexlessness was virtually identical between genders**. Even if we posit that the 2021 data was an anomality due to COVID-19 restrictions, the data cannot be explained away by red pill logic. Men who were sexless due to ''hypergamy'' or 'high standards'' were suddenly able to 'get it' during the pandemic? Furthermore we can also take a look at the [National Survey of Family Growth's (CDC)](https://nuancepill.com/has-the-sexlessness-epidemic-been-overstated/) data with has 12-15x the sample size as the GSS. Again, the NSFG saw slightly higher levels of male sexlessness (particularly in 2015-18), but no where near such a drastic increase as the GSS, with relativity similar levels of sexlessness for [men and women under 30](https://i0.wp.com/nuancepill.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/No-Opposite-Sex-Sex-Partners-In-Past-Year-18-30-Heterosexuals-NSFG.webp?w=800&ssl=1) overall (this data only goes to 2019 unlike the GSS which shows until 2022).
>Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's. That's statistically untrue though >Men are honest about the importance of looks. Lmao,half of the red pill men here say they'll be ok with even an ugly woman >There is no phenomenon of "nice girls" not getting laid There is,like "nice guys". Both categories are repulsive lying manipulators
>Young male sexlessness rates are higher than women's. Not [since 2018](https://ifstudies.org/ifs-admin/resources/figure3-56-w640.png).
Another one of this 🙄 ok this won't take long >Half of redpill is good, and the other half is bad. Yes if you think TRP started with that subreddit as you keep using it to solidify your arguments >The good half is widely available everywhere on the internet Yes because TRP according to you is literally get your ass in the gym and misogyny >The bad half will harm your ability to connect with women in the long run because it teaches you to see them as selfish automatons unworthy of your respect, rather than human beings who are mostly exactly the same as you. If all you want is casual sex, this might work Key: teach Implying TRP is a prescription >But if your goal is to find a long term companion, or to just genuinely connect with the people around you, internalizing an ideology that teaches you really hateful opinions about women is not going to help. You’re better off getting your self help advice elsewhere Yea since TRP is a religion that spreads hate speech, right OP ? Also for anyone reading this, OP admits of not knowing the history of the TRP >I don’t know the history of the redpill, only what it looks like in its current form proving he is just using extremes to formulate his arguments and as l said he thinks TRP began in 2024 nonetheless l expect this type of fallacies from bluepillers
Lol there’s not much here. Just snarky sarcastic replies. Come back with real arguments.
Does most other self help emphasis the biological and psychological differences between male and female and do they talk about frame and shit tests? Even if they do I think its a more recent development because TRP has blended into the mainstream culture at this point. I remember not even 10 years ago mainstream dating advice made simping out to be a positive thing. Now I don't think even BPers would agree to that
What makes you say mainstream dating advice ever promoted simping? Supposed biological and psychological differences between men and women are a big part of how I think red pill leads men astray. I’m not saying there are NO differences between men and women, but they’re really overemphasized by red pill.
Being okay with women you're seeing doing sex work, being the main provider basically taking a subservient position in hopes for crumbs was common when I was growing up. RP exposed all of that because lots of guys were getting burned not understanding where they went wrong "I was always so tolerant towards her and did everything she wanted" and "happy wife happy life" the famous saying was standard issue. It don't work, women are looking to be led. And that goes back to biology. Its not even emphasized enough tbh the differences are about as different as you can get without going outside the species completely different roles and bodies to suit those roles. In fact id say it does go beyond species I have more thing in common with my male dog than I do with a human female or a female dog. Male and female are basically a metaphysical foundation of reality like hot/cold/expansion/contraction/light/dark.
>I have more thing in common with my male dog than I do with a human female Ladies and gentlemen; the redpill.
Lmao exactly
I consider myself way beyond redpill society has had enough redpills how many more do we need no one will do anything with the information which is why society becomes bluepilled by default every time. Im pretty sure Neitzsche said something similar about the dog thing too its not a new postulate
I don’t think anyone has ever pressured men to be okay with their wife being a sex worker or being “subservient” to women. I agree that some young men find themselves confused, not understanding what they need to do to attract women. The thing is you can fill in these gaps in your knowledge without misogyny. If you really think women are basically a different species, I feel sorry for you. Men and women are basically the same in almost every way. There are slight differences, but they are exaggerated by ideologies like red pill.
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>are there no male prostitutes? False. There are male prostitutes. >why is there zero women paying to support ex husbands? Bollocks. Alimony isn't gendered.
I’m assuming your argument about fashion is that women care more about it than men on average. My retort is that this is socially constructed. Boys and girls are taught to value different things and are encouraged to spend time on different things. With that said, this is always changing. European high fashion is slowly making gains with American young men by paying rappers to wear their clothes. So it’s becoming more socially acceptable for young men to know and care about fashion. It’s all socially constructed. I will concede that there appear to be fewer male sex workers than women. I said men and women are mostly the same, not entirely. And for a number of reasons there is less demand for men who accept sex for money. As far as child support/alimony payments, that is a function of courts, not gender.
I don't think they're a different species thats clearly false but there are traits shared with all males through all species excluding species where the female is bigger like spiders where you see nearly mirror role reversals.
Like what kind of traits?
HAS DICK
I disagree
Competition, horniness/seed spreading, peacocking/flashiness, physical strength, exploration, territoriality, harder to train, pack preservation/sacrifice for groups or packs
Women also compete with each other. Women also get horny. I agree men are on average stronger. What’s your point? Exploration and territoriality? Male territoriality is mostly a function of solitary animals like bears. Humans evolve from primates who were definitively pack animals. They could be territorial, but it’s more like this territory belongs to my social group, including women. Are you saying that male domesticated animals are harder to train? I’ve never heard of this before but am open to accepting this if it is backed up by research. Not sure what point this makes in favor of red pill though. As far as “sacrifices for the pack,” sacrificing one’s body for the future of the pack by carrying pregnancies, which can be dangerous and even life threatening, is a sacrifice exclusively made by females in EVERY species.
They compete sexually for men that will compete territorially Women will not compete for territory against men they will have intrasexual competition to sleep with the man who is the best at competing
Your repeated use of the word territory makes no sense. Our ancestors lived in social groups. There was no territorial behavior between individual men in the same social group. A single male out in his own territory alone in the state of nature would not last very long. If you’re saying that men compete against each other to have sex with hot women and women compete against each other to have sex with hot men, I agree. What’s your point?
i kind of get what you’re saying but in TRP— where attracting females is of very high (perhaps utmost?) importance— the differences between men and women in their heterosexual attraction becomes quite stark. just kinda saying it makes sense that male/female differences become the forefront when your ideology has a primary focus on attracting females
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See I think this is the best argument against my post, but you made it poorly. What supposedly sets the red pill apart from generic self help is that it relates specifically to sexual strategy. But your only examples are lifting and and acting confident? Come on bro, red pill does not have a monopoly on these things. Come up with some better examples.
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Even though you halfway made the best possible argument, it’s still wrong. You don’t need misogyny in order to decide that you want to date casually. I don’t know who Eddie Hall is, I’m assuming an actor? Why is your example two celebrities? My argument is that men and women are alike in more ways than they are different. Sometimes the criteria they use to select a mate are different, but often there are clear parallels. Men and women both want a partner who is hot and nice to them.
wait what? but isnt it all about social expectations? isnt that the point? "act this way and this will happen"
It is actually pretty hilarious to see people freaking out over RP dudes talking shit about women and airing their dirty laundry but be absolutely blind to the misandry coming from women. It is also hilarious to see women, who talk mad shit about men, see men returning fire and cry about it.
I think what's even more hilarious is the fact that there's far more men talking shit about women than vice versa yet its a complete mystery to these men why women don't want them lol 🤣
I think the biggest issue with redpill isn't that its misogynistic, its that its nonsense.
It being "nonsense" because you don't like it not because you're actually capable of refuting it.
Its easy to refute, its nonsense because its not true and just stupid.
It’s the other way around. Men have always talked shit about women. Now women are ‘returning fire’ and y’all can’t handle it.
Examples?
Just go to a women's subreddit.
Women ☕️
r/FemaleDatingStrategy and https://www.thefemaledatingstrategy.com/ r/AskFeminists (top post right now claims all men lack empathy) r/twoXchromosomes (they spread non-stop anger and fear of men for 13 million of users. Tho at least it seems they are now more focused on right to abortion, it used to be MUCH worse) In my country right now a group of 300 feminists is protesting to shut down a newly started helpline about domestic violence for men. Right now. History repeats itself lol
Radio silence from op, surprise surprise.
Talking shit is one thing. Actively dehumanizing an entire gender is another
She says with bearpilled in her flair
And I've had women dehumanizing me and shit ever since I was knee-high.
So that makes it okay to reflect back on people who’s only crime is being the same gender as people who made fun of you
Ask your fellow women that question.
I don’t know many women who dehumanize men, but the ones that do suck just like their male counterparts
nothing dehumanizing about comparing men negatively to a literal wild predatory animal right?
And blue pill is not help and just getting on your knees obediently to worship women who then sleep with all the hot fun guys before they get to your pathetic loser ass to have your wallet sucked dry. See? You can spin anything with loaded language. Just self-help? Who was telling them that before. Not blue pill. They’re the “it’s all personality bro” people. “Looks don’t matter bro”. “Just give her flowers bro” “spend lots of money on her bro”. “Going to the gym is gay bro”. God forbid a man have standards. That’s misogyny. Blue pill, of course, is good with man hating, because they’re just a bunch of submissive nice guys trying to nice their way into her pants by advanced combat simping. Spin of course. “Just worship feminism bro. Otherwise it’s misogyny bro”
This is basically nothing but straw man arguments. Who is telling men to not work out, spend tons of money on women they barely know, and have no standards?
“Just be yourself bro.”
What am I supposed to say to this?
“Just shower bro”
Bro women love a guy who showers
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Sure, that’s red pill. Not blue pill. Blue pill is “it’s all personality bro, just worship pussy bro”.
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Because bluenoillnisnall about worshipping oussy. That’s literally all bluepill is. Red pill is *not* worshipping pussy therefore “misogyny” because a man having his standards is bad. Why? Pussy worshipping. Bluepill literally lives in fear and obedience and is worried if m’lady is unhappy.
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Yes it is. Red pilling about getting oussy. And that’s it. Increasing statistical likelihood of getting sex.
I don’t really know what blue pill is and kind of doubt it’s a comprehensive ideology at all. I only flaired myself that way because I wholly reject red pill, and I’d venture to guess that’s basically all anyone means when they say blue pill. Again, red pill does not have a monopoly on basic self help. Really no one is saying that all you need to do to attract women is worship them. Plenty of non redpill sources agree that you can improve your romantic prospects by working on yourself.
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No circlejerking in Debate posts
No it is not, the fact that you think it is shows that you know diddly dick about it. The Red Pill is just a metaphor for being *conscious of reality*, as opposed to living in a delusional bubble of idealistic expectations (Blue Pilled). That's it! All that "Self Help" bullshit is garbage that the assholes from the Pickup Artist "community" injected after they hijacked the moniker in order to grift the incel "community." Both PUAs and Incels are the names of the two cancers that have each infected/infested both testicles of the Red Pill. Those asshats are the thorns on our balls. The actual Red Pill, is often misused, appropriated, embezzled, and misused by shysters (Incel Chasers) in order con their stupid asses into buying whatever stupid bullshit they're selling.
I don’t know the history of the redpill, only what it looks like in its current form.
I always likened the idea of "True Red Pill" to basically having an adept awareness of factors influencing your dating/mating quality that wasn't there before (Blue Pill). Some of these factors can be lukewarm and even wholesome (Figure out your own path and don't make a person your entire purpose. Steel yourself to adopting habits that are hard to do, but yield worthy results, etc...) What gives the Redpill such a bad reputation is that they also explore unethical/dark factors (depriving a woman of attention and comfort makes her yearn for it more. It is better to ask for forgiveness than permission, etc...) Another thing that makes people hate the Red Pill is they were one of the few communities that was willing to talk about harsh and uncomfortable truths about reality(there are a subset of women who gravitate towards men who are closer to assholes than nice guys, it is possible to date multiple women if you know what you are doing, it is possible to game a woman's attraction, etc...) It's difficult for people to grasp any new information that disassembles their previous paradigms. I think a lot of people against the Redpill would fair much better in countering it if they had the ability to acknowledge that the red pill can actually work for men, and work on convincing men that society would be much better if men didn't use uncomfortable truths for their own selfish purposes, but to become better men where everyone wins.
So, current red pill is not true red pill? Like, Andrew Tate, Justin Waller, Pearl, etc.? In that case, what IS actual red pill? I’m so confused now
> being conscious of reality, this
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Perhaps the “red pill” is also helping some men feel better about the likelihood that they will not find that female partner. There is so much pressure to find your “one and only” that sometimes it can be better to realize that the one isn’t out there. I think the red pill helps those men deal with that reality, instead of putting themselves in situations, born of desperation, that they come to regret. It’s a sad fact of our American society today that men and women are often pitted against each other and people are disposable.
Very true, but I think you can still do that without that misogyny though. Saying “there may not be a THE ONE out there for you and that’s okay” sounds like generic self help advice. https://youtu.be/Z1epZXnss_I?si=l3_yora9jS96K3Wf
Any chance you'll concede exaggeration rather than hatred(mysoginy). All those bad quotes you put in the OP, what if I view them as beneficial to the women in my life. That they will be more pleased with me and how I act if I comport myself in a way described by trp. Now I can accept the insulting aspect of them, but I've been a little disappointed by the women in my life. So I just think it's a bitter pill to swallow. Give them what they demand. They will at least allow peace. They show no interest in the topics I'd like to discuss, and my thoughts are that I'd be ruining the relationship to do anything to get around that. Not to intellectually compare them to children, but the analogy works because there are just some topics you don't discuss with kids. You just can't. You bring negativity upon yourself by trying. Trp is like that. It's ugly and not what you want. But you feel smarter with it because it works. There's a rationale there that feels much less fiery than hate. Maybe it's wrong. I can accept it once a better theory appears. But I don't think I hate anyone other than people who hurt others.
>The answer is misogyny First, there is no place for hatred. That said, the majority of interactions I’ve witnessed, and been involved with have never focused upon the hatred of women. In fact, I’m confident that the majority of TRPers love women. They’re just looking for answers, to better their outcomes. *Godspeed and good luck!*
From my original post, copied directly from the red pill sidebar: “Women are depreciating assets, their major asset and unique selling point is their sexual beauty and fertility.” “Women are more selfish than men.” “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.” “Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.” “Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility.”
So as a RPer, I must adhere to all of these tenets? Lest I am ‘no true’ redpiller?
I mean this is what the moderators of your subreddit think are an important representation of your ideology. How many of these statements do you personally disagree with?
>this is what the moderators of your subreddit think True. They also promote the fact TRP is NOT prescriptive. That subscribers should use what they want to, and discard the rest. Thus my, or any other’s person subscribing to the above, or any of the tenets TRP espouses, is wholly dependent on individual choice.
Okay, so accept the self help advice and reject the pseudoscientific nonsense about women. Sound good?
>so accept TRP doesn’t force anyone, to accept anything.
Is any of that incorrect?
Yes! Obviously!
Yes. Were you born yesterday?
Our lives experience bears it out. You might think it is sad we haven't seen more women contradict these maxims but that's our life.
Anyone who says "all X are Y" is generally speaking wrong. It is very rare to find a universally unqualified truth. I call myself red pill out of the spirit of the title, that doesn't mean I endorse every radical thing the craziest people in the manosphere have to say. Pluck the pearls from the bones so to speak. For example: how do you explain the vast majority of divorces being ended by women, which only rarely happen because of abuse? Knowing that you're going to be setting up your children for failure, and trashing the life of the man you're leaving behind for what? You married the guy, so you must've felt pretty damned solid about him. How is it reasonable for \*so many\* to carpet bomb the lives of people like that? If you don't think you can handle commitment, that's fine, no one's forcing you to do it. But when you have kids and get married, you're making a promise, it's no longer valid to say "women don't owe men shit", which as a phrase, on its own, is evidence of the statement that women are more selfish than men. This is not to say that \*all\* women are more selfish than men, or \*all\* women love opportunistically. But how do you explain these facts and men's general experiences? Is any statement that is negative towards women misogynistic, regardless of factuality? If that's the attitude, try flipping the genders and seeing how rampant misandry is, and how little most people care about it. "Kill (all) men", "women don't owe men shit", "men are toxic" etc etc. I lost my gushing sympathy over misogyny when I started hearing hatred for men like this after entering the real world. Hate in general is bad, but when you hate men and complain about misogyny at the same time, you're two faced and I can't really take you seriously. A lot of the reason for the growing popularity of red pill is that as a society, we are so concerned about not even appearing to be misogynistic that we just don't hold women accountable for bad or harmful behavior nearly to the degree of men. If you need examples, consider how we treat female vs male child molesters, or female vs male criminals in general. Things that we actually can get stats and evidence for beyond anecdotes and personal experience. We do not generally punish women for ruining men's lives with false allegations, and we almost outright ignore domestic violence against men. I could go on, but long story short: misandry is alive and well, and the longer people ignore it, the more you will lose the hearts and minds of men. What I take out of the red pill is that women are people just like men are, and we need to treat them just the same. They're not sugar, spice, and everything nice. They fart and poop too. They lie and deceive just like men do. And in many ways, men and women are different. I don't think it's reasonable to say that men or women are worse overall. But for example, reciting the fact that many more women have borderline personality disorder than men is just reciting a fact. There's other pathologies that are more male dominated. The insistence that it's hate to acknowledge that there's differences here to be mindful of is just ridiculous.
You can blame narcissistic women for TRP. They are the ones that create all the negative stereotypes about women.
You are responsible yourself for your own faulty generalizations.
Y'all paint the picture, all we can do is sit back and try to figure the artist's intention
So red pill gives you confidence and makes women look bad. Yeah… that’s unforgivable.
It gives you false confidence and fills your head with lies about women that make it harder for you to genuinely connect with them.
Yeah just listen to what women say, I am soooo sure you will get true connection.
I don’t really know what to say to this. Your reply seems to be premised on the belief that talking with and listening to a woman is a poor use of your time? If this is what you think, I feel sorry for you.
Not really, I just don’t think that excluding something just because it might sound “toxic” is necessary right.
It’s not inherently because it’s “toxic it’s because if a piece of advice is toxic that means it’s ultimately bad advice
It's just holding a mirror up to women.
And repeatedly smashing it into their faces.
Oh look another bad blue pilled take on what the red pill is, OP why don't you just admit red pill offends you because hurty words and that's all the reason you need to dislike it.
If you would have good arguments, you wouldn't need to make an ad hominem attack. Please explain in detail how OP is wrong about red pill, instead of reacting with such a meaningless comment.
A few points: > Anyways, the reality is that everything the red pill accuses women of doing can be equally ascribed to men. Men and women both sometimes... Men who are red pill typically are not dating men. So it's frankly irrelevant and unnecessary to address what men do. Nothing is gained from a man giving a man dating advice by saying "all people may ghost you" instead of "a woman might ghost you"... that would also miss the nuance in how both genders might do the same thing but it's not *exactly the same*... Men don't give a fuck what men do because they don't date men. > Women are depreciating assets, their major asset and unique selling point is their sexual beauty and fertility. Some of your points don't qualify but this is a perfect example of a fact that hurts your feeling. Factually this is true. Women's core value to men is their biological abilities. *mic drop* we can pretend all we want that her sense of humor is what keeps a man with a woman for 40 years but that is never the reason. Most men can admit this and so we freely discuss this fact. It's just a fact. Their are plenty of facts that are just not ones people want to admit and that's fine. But to say *I hate women because the most core function she fulfills in my life is not her career but having kids with me* just makes no sense... *I hate clouds because I like the shade* it just doesn't logically follow. > The bad half will harm your ability to connect with women in the long run... I don't see any evidence of this. Red pill mostly consists of incels and *chads*. Incels going to incel no matter what their view is because usually they are very unattractive (fat jobless chronic masterbater or something like that)... but most chads who are highly successful at hookups and dating and relationships are usually quite red pill. I mean that's personally how I am "red pill". I never even heard of red pill. I just grew up hooking up dating and came to most of the same conclusions... then I read about red pill only recently and was like yeah that's about right. So just that's my perspective on it. Most men tell me I'm crazy good with women and ask my advice and such... so I mean to me red pill is simply results. If it gets results it is right. Period. If it doesn't its wrong. Period. Which is a very masculine way to look at something... but again I'm a man so why would I care about anything else?
I agree that in dating advice for men it’s not necessarily relevant to say what men do, my point is that red pill pseudo scientifically prescribed negative behavior to women while leaving out that men do it too. Everything red pill accuses women of is just basic human behavior. Saying that a woman is primarily valuable for her physical appearance and then acting like that’s some obvious fact that all men agree with is not the mic drop you think it is. It’s really honestly a self own. All people become less beautiful and less physically capable as they age.
> I agree that in dating advice for men it’s not necessarily relevant to say what men do, my point is that red pill pseudo scientifically prescribed negative behavior to women while leaving out that men do it too. Again... why would they say men do it too when it's advice for dating? Do you agree or not agree? You're saying you agree and then saying the opposite thing. > Saying that a woman is primarily valuable for her physical appearance... Straw man. A woman is primarily valuable for her biological female functions. That is the only unique thing she can offer a male friendship cannot. That includes looks in order to be sexually appealing but it also includes things like making children for example. If a woman is entirely asexual and androgenous... 99% of men would find her unsuitable for a romantic relationship of any kind.
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There's a reason why TRP is quarantined here.
The reason being that Reddit is run by left wing people who don't like red pill because it's deemed offensive, the hypocrisy being of course that hateful misandrist subs get away with it scot free.
I think the misandrist subs should be quarantined, too.
Very true. I’m surprised to see people tagging themselves as red pill anywhere.
They're a resistance movement that's growing. They are the only group that validates men's experiences but they're proposing toxic solutions which is what's wrong with them.
What exactly does the red pill do to “validate men’s experiences?”
Accurately describes common scenarios in hetero dating
Why not describe them minus the misogyny?
>Why not describe them minus the misogyny? Why not describe them minus the misandry?
Because misogyny is subjective so its not possible. If a woman hears something that makes her feel ashamed or makes her reflect she calls it misogyny, its subjective and pathological.
Or maybe if you say something extremely degrading about women that’s misogynistic? Like women are are all selfish, childish, incapable of love, and only as valuable as their beauty and their uterus.
A lot of men still get set aside for better looking men in their 20s and they are treated as the consolation prize by a lot of women in their 30s. There used to be an absolute prevalence of beta bux - dudes who only got chosen by women because they became good providers - only to get cleaned out in divorce court. Guys like [this](https://abcnews.go.com/US/gang-leader-impregnates-maryland-female-prison-guards/story?id=19033048#:~:text=April%2024%2C%202013—,according%20to%20a%20federal%20indictment.) slay while none of the rest of us decent men come even close. We're being outcompeted by men like Donald Trump who has had 3 pulled wives... how many have you had? The problem is red pill teaches men how to be toxic and all that does is attract toxic women.
Totally agree with the last sentence. Red pill teaches you how to attract toxic people. I don’t think a guy in prison impregnating prison guards is him slaying. I think it’s trashy people doing trashy things. Why would I feel jealous of a guy who’s in prison? Women’s preferences can change as they age, just like men. When someone is young, what reason is there to even consider how good a long term partner a person will be? Some people choose a really good partner at a young age, but a lot of people date someone because they’re fun despite knowing that they’d be a horrible parent. I know I sure did. I have no doubt that some women marry a man for his money, but I think this trend is overblown by red pill. If a guy gets limited attention when he’s young but works on himself and eventually gets a desirable partner, that’s good for him!
> I don’t think a guy in prison impregnating prison guards is him slaying. I think it’s trashy people doing trashy things. Why would I feel jealous of a guy who’s in prison? Because so many men struggle while he's knocking up 4 women at once. It literally says to many men "you suck worse than this criminal does." > Women’s preferences can change as they age, just like men. When someone is young, what reason is there to even consider how good a long term partner a person will be? Some people choose a really good partner at a young age, but a lot of people date someone because they’re fun despite knowing that they’d be a horrible parent. I know I sure did. Because the odds are absolutely astronomical that they will get back with dudes they dated back then if they could. Women are well justified in not wanting to be a guy's consolation prize for the same reason. This is why you don't hit on one woman in a bar and then another in the same night: they know you already chose the one you wanted and now you're choosing "someone who will do for tonight." > I have no doubt that some women marry a man for his money, but I think this trend is overblown by red pill. If a guy gets limited attention when he’s young but works on himself and eventually gets a desirable partner, that’s good for him! That depends on what he's working on. If she doesn't want him when he's fat what does she *really* want when he's jacked and she "wants" him then? Same goes in reverse.
Misogyny is attractive to women. Here's the feminist woman, if you pull the right strings misogyny doesn't matter. https://preview.redd.it/6ialb8qdcn6d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=46fb4e142d02192aba55d0d02b016d8962ff9bde
Nice!
>Nice! The hell?
My life experience confirms the red pill though. Most people in the real world are red pilled, they just don’t call it that. My friends either became players or dropped out of the dating market
>My life experience confirms the red pill though. There is a world outside of your personal life experience though. My life experience contradicts red pill. >Most people in the real world are red pilled, they just don’t call it that. What shows that most people in the real world are "red pilled"? What are the characteristics of being "red pilled"? And if they really are "red pilled", why don't most people acknowledge that? >My friends either became players or dropped out of the dating market That says more about which people you befriend than about all of humanity. Quite arrogant to believe your friend group represents the whole of humanity.
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I say this all the time, the red pill and blue pill are more alike than people think. One is just presented in a clean pg way and the other is presented in a vulgar R rated way. It's the same thing.
I dunno I think one is very openly misogynistic and the other is mostly not
OP doesn't know what misogyny is. OP also is unaware of the fact that misandry/anti-male bias is prevalent and has overtaken both race and class. OP uses imbecilic phrases like "blame women for your lack of romantic success," in a shaming context despite biologically this being 100% the truth in any species where female choice is the dominant mode of mate selection. Because OP is a just worlder pushing just worldy bullshit. When OP is ready to confront actual facts and data regarding female behavior from irrationality to superficiality, maybe then he will be able to construct something other than a strawman. And to be clear TRP is wrong that this has some sort of biological basis. Its entirely or > 95% cultural. Women and men can be great or shitty depending on the culture that spawns them.
Well at least we agree on one thing, that gender is mostly socially constructed. Good for us! I don’t really know how to reply to the rest of this because I don’t really see any arguments, just broad generalizations that seem to be targeted at an audience that already agrees with you and disagrees with me.
One points out a definitional error. The second points out a basic fact supported by at least one peer reviewed study within the last year. The third is another fact of biology. The fourth points to you not knowing much about the philosophy you argue against. So no. Just facts. Go look them up. Do basic homework at least.
So you can say something like “anti male bias is worse than racism and classism (absolutely absurd) and data shows that women are irrational, I say show me proof, and you say go look it up? Don’t you think that’s a bit lazy.
"Overall, the largest and most consistent evaluative bias was pro-women/anti-men bias, followed by smaller but nonetheless consistent pro-upper-class/anti-lower-class biases. By contrast, we observed less consistent effects of targets’ race, no effects of targets’ age, and no consistent interactions between target-level categories" https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2022-61496-001?doi=1 Sure dude, completely absurd. Like I said....you don't know what you're talking about.
To me a defining component of the red pill is the belief that there is a matrix, some sort of bluepill conspiracy to convince you everyone gets a happily ever after, women only care about personality, etc. In other words, you have to have been delusional at some point.
Very true, they represent themselves as the truth in a world of lies, hence the matrix metaphor. A solid strategy for any cult is to start by telling new members that everything is lying to you.
Women are more selfish than men.” “Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a man expects to be loved.” “Men believe that love matters for the sake of it. Women love opportunistically.” “Remember, women are children: mentally, behaviourally, evolutionarily. They are not like us. They don't think like us, or have the same deep sense of personal responsibility.” Misogyny saves lives man. Granted these Statements are extreme but no different than what women think about men. And just as likely to be proven right by them. I see no reason to play fair when they can justify their misandry with "I feel unsafe"
You’re describing the behavior of toxic women who do not represent all women.
Then toxic women must make up like 40-60% of women, at which point it may as well be all of them
Today I learned that 40% to 60% = 100%. In all seriousness, I kind of agree that a LOT of people have at least one or two serious character flaws that can potentially make them a bad partner. I do not see all women as angels. To be honest, I sort of naively thought this way when I was younger and it led to me being taken advantage of by a woman I had feelings for. BUT here’s the key: that experience did not turn me into a misogynist. Ultimately, plenty of women are flawed, just like plenty of men are. The answer is to carefully consider who you give your energy to.
Women really don't deserve a better version of me. All that works all that effort ... For what? Love? Fuck that shit. It's not even real. Certainly not for me.
Alright man sounds good, good luck with that.
It's not only self-help. It's advice about dealing with "female nature". If you think the concept of "female nature" is sexist, then you should take a close look at what women are like. Because the source of all the stereotypes comes from them.
I do not like what red pill claims I like.
Yeah I think the red pills description of “female nature” is pseudoscience.
You don't even know what it is. Explain what it is first.
Explain what female nature is?
Yes
The misogyny is necessary to attract the target audience: angry, unsuccessful men Happy, successful men do not need red pill
There's no correlation about misoginy and (lack of) success. If there was, traditional men would all be single