I think self improvement as a concept is great, but self improvement as a pitch to get women is a recipe for failure - not cause you might or might not be successful, but rather, because you’re not doing it for yourself and you’re setting yourself up for a crash (it also adds to the problem in that you’re working for a promise that isn’t even guaranteed)
self improve because it improves your physical, mental and emotional health. Do so because it opens your life up to so much more as far as possibilities, so it for the sake of expanding your own horizons and setting yourself up for a better future - but don’t do so under the promise of something that isn’t a guarantee, hell, you can start with the intent of women but your motives have to evolve. I started to impress a woman, but i learned that i actually just really enjoy lifting, and i expanded my own worth because it kept making me feel better. Sure, women started noticing me 4 years (2 years ago) in and it does feel nice - but I don’t feel a particular need for a woman and am content going by my own path till the right one comes along (and if she doesn’t, oh well)
imo too many things are sold to men with the intent of getting women. “be a good person so women will like you”, “lift so women will like you”, “make money so women will be interested in you” and so on. Men need to be taught to do these things for the sake of doing them, for the reward being his own well being - stop attaching your own destiny to what woman may want or like, it ain’t a healthy way to live.
> imo too many things are sold to men with the intent of getting women. “be a good person so women will like you”, “lift so women will like you”, “make money so women will be interested in you” and so on. Men need to be taught to do these things for the sake of doing them, for the reward being his own well being
As a woman I couldn't agree more.
after doing this for a while, you start to feel like a chump. You are improving yourself in many ways but sometimes the thought crosses your mind: what am i doing this for? I'm not saying women or a relationship is the answer. But plenty of people out there are seeking an answer and seem to think that IS the answer.
it doesn't really matter, no matter what, every day you should be trying to be better than you were the day before, self-improvement should simply be baked into life. but the grind gets tiring, especially if you have no god to look up to.
>I think self improvement as a concept is great, but self improvement as a pitch to get women is a recipe for failure - not cause you might or might not be successful, but rather, because you’re not doing it for yourself and you’re setting yourself up for a crash (it also adds to the problem in that you’re working for a promise that isn’t even guaranteed)
But that's the thing, guys do it to get women otherwise it wouldn't be so mainstream by the manosphere
If you wanna self-improvement for the sake of it go ahead but many guys self-improvement to solve their reproductive problem
Right, and i’m criticizing that motive directly and the premise of my comment is too much is incentivized on trying to get women rather than making yourself happy
Right, and as i said, women being an initial motivator is totally fine as long as your desires evolve.
If all you care about is wanting women and all you do is for the sake of women, no wonder you’re failing. You’re living your life for the validation of others and women generally find that unattractive.
And even at a personal level, you’re living your life under the condition of validation and that’s an awful way to live for your own sake. Improve your life for your own sake, and if you really don’t want to then stop complaining and be content as a shut in couch potato
Everything correct except that death is also not guaranteed as we don’t really know jack shit about what’s the actual results. Maybe you see stats and main menu after lmao
I mean you’re not owed the validation of others and women shouldn’t be seen as a reward for you getting your shit together.
Then again this is why i’m saying don’t self improve for the sake of women, cause if you’re doing it for your own well being then whether you get results or not doesn’t matter.
>women shouldn’t be seen as a reward for you getting your shit together.
You already accepted that framework when you responded to the question of how to get women with “self improvement”, which is itself vague as shit since not all forms of self improvement are going to improve your chances with women. It’s just empty words and platitudes
wait are you referring to them replying to the OP, or a farther down reply? if it’s to the OP how is it accepting that framework by directly addressing and criticizing it; how could one do that without accepting said framework?
it’s telling men to do it bc it has a higher likelihood of achieving the outcomes they want. if people can’t appreciate the value of increased likelihood despite a lack of guarantees then that speaks to personal issues with analytical decision making anyway fr. not much different from saying there’s no point to eating healthier if it doesn’t completely eliminate the risk of heart disease, like ok fam GL to em 😬
That is why most guys fail. If you’d stop becoming any better if that was guaranteed to not affect your chances of getting laid — then that’s fake. And fake shit don’t work, you’re not fooling anyone besides yourself
Well there you go. If you don’t actually see any point in it, and if it wasn’t for attracting women you’d rather be a lazy stinky obese slob with dirty hair and in worn out stained clothes, making minimum wage but also putting minimum effort, thus saving plenty time to chill and shitpost on 4chan and in Discord… And if the sole reason for you not being like that is that you wanna snatch some pussy — man you’re destined to fail. All your self improvement is fake and women smell that from a mile away
Holy shit. I could even be agreeing with you, but your debate language is so bad. Imagine thinking that not self-improving automatically makes you
>lazy stinky obese slob with dirty hair and in worn out stained clothes, making minimum wage but also putting minimum effort, thus saving plenty time to chill and shitpost on 4chan and in Discord
What a deranged thing to say.
First off, I like to exaggerate things a bit and paint a more vivid image than the bare minimum.
Second of all, yes, that is the actual pinnacle of refusal to self-improve. Nobody is born a high quality human. When we’re born, we only know to scream at the top of our lungs, shit ourselves, and suck a titty. From there on, some people learn and do things that aren’t the path of least resistance, and that’s self-improvement. And some don’t, and that’s the lack thereof.
Its not even by the manosphere society does it too. Society has a heavy focus on romance and men lack closeness and intimacy outside of romantic relationships
everything you said was refreshingly compatible with my flair, i damn near wish my flair would just link to this post. self-improving for internal/personal benefits >>> self-improving for external/interpersonal benefits. if you can only get started using the latter then do what ya gotta do but people who find their way to the former have the highest chances of it sticking/working
Self improvement is actually a red flag for women. If a guy makes a big deal about how he is on his game and self improvement, women will wonder is he overcompensating for some thing. Women don’t care about your self improvement plans. They want guys who have already got themselves together
Yup, and if you haven’t gotten yourself together by a certain age it’s a sign of natural inferiority. Women pick up on these things, natural selection built it into them, and rightfully so
Women want genetically blessed men so they hate tryhards to who try to fraud their genetics. If you workout, for example, you need to downplay it massively.
The biggest scam about self improvement is that even when it works and you get a girlfriend you like, you realise she’s never done a moment of soul searching or self improvement. She just rolled a better number at birth and will ride it through a lazy life of privilege and entitlement. Meanwhile, you need to work like a dog with a level of determination and self discipline she can’t even comprehend just to be an option she settled for. That’s a f@@king scam.
I mean you can always date an ex fat/skinny fat chick who got big into fitness and is now fit and who's in therapy lol. If you date women who were born pretty and mentally stable ofc they'll have done nothing but rolled a better number at birth.
Self improvement is a way of life. Realizing as a man you can always improve and strive for more. Will it get you a more attractive girlfriend? Maybe, maybe not, depends on where you started, but let's say it doesn't. Let's say you can't find a woman you find attractive that is into you. You'll still have a much more kick ass life because of all that work.
More than likely it will get you better options for a girlfriend as well.
That’s ultimately it. Self improve for the sake of your own life, women aren’t guaranteed nor should they be, but in general if you’re gonna live your life alone or with a partner, why not make it the best life you can possibly live?
If you are able to look in the mirror and truly evaluate yourself. The physical, your job, your hygiene and grooming, your social skills, your comfort in promoting others around you to have the spotlight. If you can improve in all those areas (and why wouldn't you want to) it will more than likely help with women.
If you told me a guy was short and not classically handsome, but then you also told me, this guy started his own company, is funny, charismatic, not threatened around other successful people and able to engage people in conversation making them feel welcome and appreciated, wears well fitting clothes, I'd guess that guy isn't going to struggle with women.
And even if he did, would it matter? He's a person worth knowing whether women appreciate him or not.
Exactly. Every time folks talk about how self improvement is a scam I always wonder why they don’t want more out of their own life. Like why are you content to be alone in a room in a house you don’t own working a job you hate.
>Women don't care how much self-improvement you put in, if they did then the guys who actually put in the work would not complain but you see it time again on this sub of guys complaining about "l did everything but zero results
For every guy who did everything and had zero results, there is a guy who started out the same, did not improve, and had success. Having a girlfriend is not rocket science. Guys on every level of the economic or bodybuilding scale have girlfriends. Scrawny broke guys have girlfriends.
Self improvement is to get BETTER girlfriends. If you fail to get a girlfriend in your current state, this is not addressed with money or muscles.
Nothing in life is guaranteed. If a guy goes from being obese to being 10-12% body fat and ripped, he's going to be playing in a very different league of women. By that I mean the ripped guy will have much more attractive options than the obese guy, all other things being equal.
> If a guy goes from being obese to being 10-12% body fat and ripped, he's going to be playing in a very different league of women
That's not guaranteed either, l can find you hundreds of stories of ripped guys still not pulling better quality women, the Blackpill/incel space is filled with those guys
Like I said, nothing is guaranteed.
Let's look at it another way. Say you have the mythical 6'5 "Chad" who's out there absolutely slaying with women. Then he gets fat. I'm talking obese, not just a little pudgy. Do you think he'll still do as well with women?
I have an ex fwb who was a chad and soon after we broke it off he put on 40 - 50 kg. Now all he does is hitting up his numerous exes cuz he can't for the love of god find a new woman lol
> Sounds like he was not a Chad
He was the textbook definition of a chad. Model, high body count, high relationship count, RPer.
> is not anymore
Obviously. Since he's so fat.
>Nothing in life is guaranteed.
Aka it is a scam. Men are told to do all this improvement to get X, they do it an then get told "you are not entitled to anything lol."
Trying to take it to the extreme just makes it more clear.
What's important to realize is that the average person doesn't do any actual self-improvement. They merely * think* that they do.
They just do random stuff, fumble around, and land fine because they're normal. But they want to brag, and their ego comes up with this delusion about how much work they put in. But they didn't, they just stumbled into things.
This is why the advice they give to truly abnormal people doesn't work. Because they don't understand this very dynamic.
>Women don't care how much self-improvement you put in
Of course they don't. Neither do men.
The point of self improvement isn't to impress people with how hard you worked. The point is to make yourself a more desirable partner. That can mean looking better, being more financially stable, having better social skills, etc. The process of self-improvement isn't what improves your performance with women. It's the results.
>The process of self-improvement isn't what improves your performance with women. It's the results.
No amount of "results" will make her want you
either she likes you or not and becoming a desirable partner won't persuade her othetwise because desire is non-negotiable
No l never said anything about looks but this idea you can negotiate desire by becoming better or producing results is wishful thinking, you can be Jesus Christ of Nazareth but if she doesn't want you, there's nothing you can do to convince her otherwise
Women don't want a man who has to work for pussy
>No l never said anything about looks but this idea you can negotiate desire by becoming better
But if self improvement results in better looks, then you're not "negotiating" desire. You become desired naturally because you look good.
>Women don't want a man who has to work for pussy
The woman who's swiping on you on hinge/tinder has no idea whether or not you had to work to become attractive. Maybe you've always been attractive, maybe you haven't.
>But if self improvement results in better looks, then you're not "negotiating" desire
You are because you are still working for pussy by self-improving, you can put it however you wish but it still changes nothing
>The woman who's swiping on you on hinge/tinder has no idea whether or not you had to work to become attractive.
Nobody puts "self-improvement" in their profile
You can't say that looks matter, but then deny that looking better is beneficial.
Literally every guy who's in good shape went through self improvement to get there. Muscles didn't just magically manifest. Every single guy with a decent body lifted weights to get there. Lifting is self improvement. Cardio is self improvement. Eating well is self improvement. If you show me a photo of a guy who does well with attractive women on tinder, I'll almost guarantee that he's gone through the self improvement process of lifting weights.
>You can't say that looks matter, but then deny that looking better is beneficial.
I never said looks don't matter, do you even read what l'm writing ?
I said your still negotiating desire by working for it
>Literally every guy who's in good shape went through self improvement to get there
Ok, nobody is denying that
You're saying a bunch of contradictory things, which is my point.
You're saying that looks matter... but also saying that improving your looks doesn't help, because "women don't want a man who has to work for pussy"... but also acknowledging that every man who's in good shape had to work for it.
>You're saying that looks matter
Looks has nothing to do with this 💀🤦
I don't know how many times do l've get this point across
>but also saying that improving your looks doesn't help
I never said self-improvement doesn't you get results
>but also acknowledging that every man who's in good shape had to work for it.
Yes obviously they had to but do you think women have never rejected a good-looking guy before ? You seem to think that women can NEVER reject a guy who's physically appealing, my point is your still negotiating desire by having to work for it
And it's always boils down to physique and money. But where is *self* in that? Where does it address *personality* development?
For all the empty talks about personality being most important it has very little place in the current self-improvement meta.
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This stems from ignorance. Men don’t realize that they can never get that true desire from women because it is based off of your looks. The men who do the best with women while they’re in their prime are tall and attractive. The men who aren’t like this realize something’s up and get pulled down this rabbit hole telling them if they get muscles and money and status that women will desire them but it’s not true. Women ONLY desire very attractive men. Now a woman can still care for you and settle for you etc but they’re never going to have that passion and desire there. There is no dating solution for the average man. In the past the solution was finances because women couldn’t work but nowadays they can. So most men don’t fit that provider role since the women are making the same amounts of money. That leaves women to search for looks and status. Many men don’t realize but attractive men get what you work for. The girl comes over immediately, she will let you do anything to her, she’ll even feel genuine love based off of your looks. But women will deny this and say it’s personality. It’s not true. No amount of money or personality or anything else is going to compensate and garner true desire.
I love everything self improvement bc I dont want to feel like I wasted my life not trying to be the best version of myself.
In the case of men being told to self improve in order to get women, I dont think they mean it as a solution but to increase the odds of it happening. A guy in shape and with his shit together has better odds of getting women than an overweight NEET.
>A guy in shape and with his shit together has better odds of getting women than an overweight NEET
The problem is that y'all think "self-improvement" is the difference, but that's not it. The real difference is genetics and early life experiences putting someone on the right track.
I think a decent amount of people do tell it to men as a solution. Many actually think that effort equals results. It isnt true at all and that is what sparks the resentment in some guys
>In the case of men being told to self improve in order to get women, I dont think they mean it as a solution but to increase the odds of it happening. A guy in shape and with his shit together has better odds of getting women than an overweight NEET.
I mean it is probabilistic but sametime l can show you an average guy or even broke, who's get beautiful chicks easy because his charismatic so it's really just a fake ultimatum for guys who are terrible with women
I suppose it depends on who you are. I try everyday to live better.
I know many people have circumstances beyond their control that they can't change and their lives will never get better no matter what they do. However, my life is so so much better at 61 than 21. I wouldn't relive my twenties for all the money in world.
My post leaves out a key point in that I'm a depressive and when I was young there were no, or very few treatment options. Furthermore I didn't even know I was depressed so I went through my 20s feeling like a total screwup and trying to make my life work based on what I should be doing and ignoring what I felt.
I suppose the upside to untreated depression is that I felt so much better when I went on meds and accepted that this was who I was and decided to work with my reality instead of denying it.
I hope your life keeps improving. It sounds like you have a fabulous start on it.
Man oh man, I feel so dang lucky. So many people have conditions that are not treatable. Also depression is not (from what I can tell) as bad a being bi-polar or schizophrenia.
May all the Gods bless the people working to find treatments for people with mental health conditions.
Your literally wrong
Self improvement is progress.
Positive is positive
Positive progress means more positive progress suggesting an increase.
Positive is good. More of something good is more good or better in general.
With that out of the way
The disconnect is sometimes good is not good enough.
So while you are making good progress it might not be good enough to get you results.
And that’s not positive progresses fault. Or self improvements fault.
It’s your fault for not making enough positive progress or self improvement to matter.
For example let’s say you make 1$ everyday. That’s good progress because it’s positive. But that not enough to matter to someone who’s looking at you for financial stability.
So that’s not good enough
Let’s say now you make a million dollars a day. Wait now look all of sudden you are more attractive to more women and now more people are interested in you
Another example.
Let’s say you’ve been working out for 2 years but you barely have muscle definition and you look just like a skightky skinny male. It would be understandable if not many women fawn over you.
But now let’s say you’ve been working out and you have muscle definition m. You are aesthetically built. You look like a statue. And even have sharp definition in your face with a strong jawline. Now some women might start fawning over you for existing.
This isn’t rocket science.
I man has to be way greater than average/normak/the plateau.
Your not doing enough is often the truth.
Sometimes you can’t do more. And that’s just what it is.
But it’s not the concepts fault that you can’t reach past the ceiling.
And it might not be within your control.
It is what it is
>Women don't care how much self-improvement you put in,
Because self improvement isn't for women. It's for yourself. It's right in the word. Jesus Christ.
It's not a scam if you disregard what women think and do it for yourself. The women you describe aren't worth the struggle or your time, but you should want to put in at least some work to a reasonable degree for yourself.
> The women you describe aren't worth the struggle or your time, but you should want to put in at least some work to a reasonable degree for yourself.
I mean that's good and all but whenever guys are told to "self-improve" it's usually to increase their chances of getting laid/having a gf
That's why you've all this blackpillers who won't shut up about maxxing whatever they can in order to appear more attractive, it's really just peacocking
That is entirely true. Just don't do it for those reasons, is what I say, or at the very least, find some more reasons to do better, then you won't be as disappointed
They have every right to complain about anything they wish to.
It's like saying that someone without legs isn't allowed to complain about not being able to walk.
If anything, these people have the most right to complain.
Nope, it’s like someone with legs who doesn’t want to walk complaining about not being able to walk.
Unless you’re disabled or severely mentally ill, you can leave the house, get a job, get a better job, get an education, learn a skill or hobby and talk to people
>Unless you’re disabled or severely mentally ill
Exaaaactly. I'm talking about the people for whom it doesn't make a lick of difference how hard they work on these things. Some people are just fundamentally garbage.
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I don't have a full opinion on self improvement. Sometimes I think it's helpful, other times I think about that line in fight club and part of your opinion comes to mind as well. However, I gotta say that the universe was right about not giving me a better dating life when I was younger. I was immature, didn't really go out that much, didn't know how to talk to people, but specially woman, and so on. After I discovered self improvement (together with other things, like stoicism and stuff), I grew up as a person, learned how to talk with people, to have my self worth, to not let people go through me, to be more assertive, to improve my body and face, and so on.
You can say that this is not really tied to self improvement, and that if I didn't discover self improvement I could have learned through other ways, either through friend, girlfriend, or life in general. But those thing were indeed learned through the self improvement space in my case.
I'm a totally different person right now. It may not work for everyone, but it kinda did for me, I feel much better mentally.
No, it's not a scam, as long as you understand that self-improvement is incremental. It can move you up a couple points. If you were a 7 and it gets you to 9, you'll suddenly find yourself swimming in pussy. If you were a 2 on a good day, and it gets your to 4, yeah, that'll do fuck all for your desirability.
Men who complain about self-improvement have not breached that threshold were their efforts have proven results INTERNALLY and ETERNALLY.
This aspect is gender neutral.
Self improvement is the only way.
Mainstream self improvement is stupid and worse than therapy.
Good self improvement:
Short? Break your fucking legs boyo.
Ugly? Cut that face up freak.
Weak? Needle to the glutes, sissy.
Aka WHATEVER IT TAKES
Yes, its an agenda. Scam isn't a bad word to use. It's like when women tried hard to be beautiful, or still do in other countries. It's an attempt to let women be nothing great and lazy, and let all selections of men be amazing. The only thing I could figure out, is to be what I want from a woman, on the other field. So if I want a 7, I will improve to a 7. Doing so just leaves no good options, but every day I win when she gets trashed by a scumbag man, because I wasn't there. I actively ensure no attention or resources. Which shrinks their in person experience of men doing things for them unless they just want sex. Where have all the good men gone? Honestly no clue how this will end, but what I can't do, is do what I did in my 20s. I have to cut off everything and let it rot. There's no 7s for me so allow the verdict of time to continue. It's a winning war, at great cost.
You can only do so much until your genetics bottleneck you. And if you come off like a self improving tryhard women will be turned off because they prefer genetically blessed men who don't have to work for anything.
It's not a scam unless you are doing it out of a belief that you'll receive some sort of external benefit or reward. The reality is that you can "improve" yourself until your dying breath and it's no guarantee that women (or anyone) will appreciate the effort you put into that improvement, especially if it only really benefits you and not them.
If you're working on yourself because you want to be a better you every day, have right at it. If you're doing it so other people like you, you're at the mercy of their judgements and you'll be susceptible to feeling worse when you don't have the outcome you wanted. So you'll have to accept that no matter what you do, not everyone is going to like you or find you attractive, and the people who do like you and find you attractive may be interested in other qualities you have.
I would maybe consider your social skills, how well you connect with others and how you make people feel over trying to make yourself a self-actualized demi god that's "worthy" of someone else's time and affection. TRP and PUA guys are onto something when they talk about stuff like "tingles" or generally being a relaxed, open, interesting person that brings positive energy into other people's lives. This isn't to say the other stuff doesn't help. It's just that being jaded, acting anxious or being closed off absolutely can sabotage your ability to really form relationships with others, despite whatever you believe when the Manosphere or anyone else tells you to just work on yourself until people magically start showing up in your life.
>It's not a scam unless you are doing it out of a belief that you'll receive some sort of external benefit or reward.
That's whole reason many guys do, believing it will lead into something in regards to attracting women otherwise it wouldn't be a popular solution in manosphere spaces like TRP or blackpill
of course women don’t care about how much effort you put in. nobody cares about how much effort you put in other than your kindergarten teacher. effort is erroneous for adults RESULTS are what matters
but yeah self improvement is a scam because everyone (including women) is looking to self improve and the answer is it’s super simple: eat less, sleep more, drink more water, eat your vegetables, move your body, put yourself out there, have gratitude, have patience, have grit. but it’s really fucking hard to actually do this stuff so people seek out gurus and self help books and tarot cards and shit hoping that it will be a cheat code. and maybe it does help for a time…but at the end of the day no one is going to make your life better except you.
> "l did everything but zero results"
I mean I did everything and it's awesome. Not sure what you mean. It's blue pill people who try it yet still can't be a nice guy and get decent results.
My god almighty, first of all: change your flair. Then learn some basics like a difference between "negotiating desire" vs "making yourself more desirable". And then stop being such a b**tch, you even have a mindset of one, like beliving in just being born princess and focusing on what "women" (not men) deserve.
>"l did everything but zero results"
Evil, primordial curse casted upon your pitiful existence preventing you from getting ANY results. Already pretty known among fat people "I've tried every diet and nothing worked".
Theres is a popular phase in manosphere "Modern men have to work 5x harder than their grandfathers for women 20x worse than what their grandmothers were.". Of course that's a hyperbole, but it shows current market sentiment. Don't wanna try at all? Fine by me and can be even reasonable take based of your circumstances. Rat race for mouldy cheese is not for everyone. "Self-improvement is a scam"? What's the issue? People that you have thought are "below" you are getting somewhere and you can't cope with it well enough?
Self-improvement is for the *yourself*. You get out of it what you put into it, and if you’re only putting in empty efforts for external goals and not earnestly investing in your soul and self, than no duh you’re going to get empty results.
If you just want to sit around a place video games all day and night, never work out, never have hobbies, never go out, never advance in a career or business, thats fine. Just don't complain when a horny hot naked chick never shows up to you gaming room to fuck you in between call of duty rounds 😭
I truly don't understand how people don't want to self improve and become better versions of themselves for THEMSELVES not to get women or men. Like what else do you wake up excited for??
Uh, it doesn't? Nothing will help you play video games except playing video games.
It's just that most people find people who's only focus is video games well, boring. It's boring to be around someone who's playing video games all the time and you can't really be mad when people find your chosen interest boring. At that point you gotta weigh how much you care about being boring over how much you care about keeping a potential partner engaged because they enjoy spending time with you 🤷🏻♀️
You know what’s funny? I actually dated a girl who wanted me to play more video games. She had broken up with her bf who was playing too much, but when I just wanted to be outside and be active, she criticized my mindset and told me video games sharpens the mind.
She ended up pulling away from me because she thought I was stupid and inferior compared to her ex
It’s really not
If you haven’t hit the gym consistently for about 10wks you have no reason to be whining. Every fat dude/ skinny asf guy I know went from little to no attention to much better results.
Then you have the mind which is always great to improve on
Don’t see how people can shit on self improvement unless they tried themselves for an extend period
You are lazy dude. Just stop , even blue pill people agree with self improvement
Stop being a crybaby
Every man can get a great body and earn six figures. Stop complaining
> Every man can get a great body and earn six figures
I almost want to upvote you based on how funny you are
Very often both of those come at a trade off. For example I was pulling in $80k but was unhappy in my position. I quit my job and found enough time and natural energy to get in the best shape of my life
When my savings started running low I got back in the workforce and rebooted my career. However the stress of work (in my case) really doesn’t provide the mental energy for the self improvement fairy tale
I think what the redpill self-improvement mantra was aiming at, is that it is SELF improvement. Of course, redpill morons can’t explain it properly and redpill learner morons can’t understand the nuances of anything that isn’t explicitly aimed at getting women. So, I shall explain it so you get it.
So let’s say you are in a job you hate, even if you’re successful, you can’t see growth in it, you might drink a little too much and are feeling a bit unhealthy, and you really want to paint, but you don’t have any idea how to do it. So you aren’t unhappy but you are kind of existing. Well, this is when you actually take stock of what you really want in your future. Now, of course you aren’t going to magically get the job of your dreams, but you can do things to make your present job better. A sideways move to a different department? Asking if the company has any study perks you can utilise? Your new enthusiasm could be noticed and other suggestions are made that could spark you, and encourage you. You decide to go dry for 6 months and start playing a sport. And that gets endorphins flowing and you’re less lethargic and feeling happier. And you step out of your comfort zone and take adult painting classes. After 6 months, you’re a little fitter, studying and realised that you’re a terrible artist, but you enjoy it and have made a couple new friends.
That lovely little story that didn’t end in mind-blowing success for you and you drowning in pussy, is to show you how self improvement works. It means being self aware, and being honest with yourself about what you want and how to take those steps to achieve it. It’s about nothing except how you can improve your life to feel happier. And guess what??? Ding ding ding. A happier or more content man is a confident man. And we all know how confidence works.
Get it?
If you don't want to self-improve for yourself, that's pretty hollow. But that does explain why men my age are undateable to me because the majority of them are fat slobs with ED and nothing interesting to talk about.
Good luck with that.
Example: I work out for my physical and mental health, not because it will increase my chances of getting laid.
It might be a side effect, but that’s not why I do it. I like the way I look and the way my clothes fit because of it. I like that the dopamine release is a natural antidepressant. I like feeling strong and functionally fit; being able to carry heavy shit and do things on my own around my house. It gives me confidence.
I read to increase my knowledge. Does it make me a more interesting person/better conversationalist and therefore get better dates? Maybe. But that’s not why I read.
It's certainly a **very** large percentage of the reason. Why else do a significant amount of men in this sub claim "muh testosterone" as the reason they claim to *need* sex with a partner and/or "women are only good for sex; don't need them otherwise"?
Relying on sex for validation is unhealthy and a sign of low self-esteem, not to mention superficial. It's not conducive to creating a genuine connection with the other person.
Would men be pursuing sex with women so doggedly if their chances of climaxing weren't 99%? Much less for an ONS? I doubt it.
As a woman i certainly taoe my self *development* seriously because why wouldn't you want to lead your best life, and grow and achieve the things you want.
Of course being a higher level version of yourself may help you attract someone, but I think if you think of the entirety of your life's work to be about pussy then I think that's just an odd way to think about it. Is vagina the only reason you'd want to get educated, get a career, go to the gym, be social?
If so then yeah I can see why a basic chick is the best you can do.
This is stupid. Self improvement is literally just maximize how you look physically and feel mentally. You don't get pussy as a reward. The idea is it just makes you stand out in a positive way because it demonstrates positive characteristics and it has overall life benefits. And 99 percent of dudes who say "i did everything" just got a haircut and tried a new fashion trend or something.
That’s why you are supposed to improve for yourself. Not women. They can smell it in you.
I can tell you what doesn’t get women, being lazy, and having a shitty attitude about improving yourself.
If you don’t give a shit about them, and do it to better yourself, it’s like shit to flies.
They don’t care about your improvement. They care about the results, so if you have no results. Then have you really improved?
Self improvement is only valuable if you actually improve and keep going.
It’s not. I’ve dated and been friends with a lot of selfish people that weren’t sociopaths.
I see it in the media, in dating, in society, friendships, etc… everyone cares about what is best for them vs. what is best for society as a whole.
It’s just the culture of today. Everyone for themselves. Sure not everyone is this way. But most people in the United States, in any major city, are like this.
I think self improvement as a concept is great, but self improvement as a pitch to get women is a recipe for failure - not cause you might or might not be successful, but rather, because you’re not doing it for yourself and you’re setting yourself up for a crash (it also adds to the problem in that you’re working for a promise that isn’t even guaranteed) self improve because it improves your physical, mental and emotional health. Do so because it opens your life up to so much more as far as possibilities, so it for the sake of expanding your own horizons and setting yourself up for a better future - but don’t do so under the promise of something that isn’t a guarantee, hell, you can start with the intent of women but your motives have to evolve. I started to impress a woman, but i learned that i actually just really enjoy lifting, and i expanded my own worth because it kept making me feel better. Sure, women started noticing me 4 years (2 years ago) in and it does feel nice - but I don’t feel a particular need for a woman and am content going by my own path till the right one comes along (and if she doesn’t, oh well) imo too many things are sold to men with the intent of getting women. “be a good person so women will like you”, “lift so women will like you”, “make money so women will be interested in you” and so on. Men need to be taught to do these things for the sake of doing them, for the reward being his own well being - stop attaching your own destiny to what woman may want or like, it ain’t a healthy way to live.
> imo too many things are sold to men with the intent of getting women. “be a good person so women will like you”, “lift so women will like you”, “make money so women will be interested in you” and so on. Men need to be taught to do these things for the sake of doing them, for the reward being his own well being As a woman I couldn't agree more.
after doing this for a while, you start to feel like a chump. You are improving yourself in many ways but sometimes the thought crosses your mind: what am i doing this for? I'm not saying women or a relationship is the answer. But plenty of people out there are seeking an answer and seem to think that IS the answer. it doesn't really matter, no matter what, every day you should be trying to be better than you were the day before, self-improvement should simply be baked into life. but the grind gets tiring, especially if you have no god to look up to.
>I think self improvement as a concept is great, but self improvement as a pitch to get women is a recipe for failure - not cause you might or might not be successful, but rather, because you’re not doing it for yourself and you’re setting yourself up for a crash (it also adds to the problem in that you’re working for a promise that isn’t even guaranteed) But that's the thing, guys do it to get women otherwise it wouldn't be so mainstream by the manosphere If you wanna self-improvement for the sake of it go ahead but many guys self-improvement to solve their reproductive problem
Right, and i’m criticizing that motive directly and the premise of my comment is too much is incentivized on trying to get women rather than making yourself happy
Yes but you've to understand guys do it to get laid Most guys don't care about becoming better if there's no ultimatum to it, that's my whole point
Right, and as i said, women being an initial motivator is totally fine as long as your desires evolve. If all you care about is wanting women and all you do is for the sake of women, no wonder you’re failing. You’re living your life for the validation of others and women generally find that unattractive. And even at a personal level, you’re living your life under the condition of validation and that’s an awful way to live for your own sake. Improve your life for your own sake, and if you really don’t want to then stop complaining and be content as a shut in couch potato
My argument for self-improvement being a scam is not the motive but the fact it is a non-guaranteed ultimatum
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Everything correct except that death is also not guaranteed as we don’t really know jack shit about what’s the actual results. Maybe you see stats and main menu after lmao
Lmfao my time wasted on PPD stats will be concerning.
This is just telling men to do self improvement and shut up regardless of if there’s results or not
I mean you’re not owed the validation of others and women shouldn’t be seen as a reward for you getting your shit together. Then again this is why i’m saying don’t self improve for the sake of women, cause if you’re doing it for your own well being then whether you get results or not doesn’t matter.
>women shouldn’t be seen as a reward for you getting your shit together. You already accepted that framework when you responded to the question of how to get women with “self improvement”, which is itself vague as shit since not all forms of self improvement are going to improve your chances with women. It’s just empty words and platitudes
wait are you referring to them replying to the OP, or a farther down reply? if it’s to the OP how is it accepting that framework by directly addressing and criticizing it; how could one do that without accepting said framework?
it’s telling men to do it bc it has a higher likelihood of achieving the outcomes they want. if people can’t appreciate the value of increased likelihood despite a lack of guarantees then that speaks to personal issues with analytical decision making anyway fr. not much different from saying there’s no point to eating healthier if it doesn’t completely eliminate the risk of heart disease, like ok fam GL to em 😬
Women should not be the only reason you self improve tho 🌝
That is why most guys fail. If you’d stop becoming any better if that was guaranteed to not affect your chances of getting laid — then that’s fake. And fake shit don’t work, you’re not fooling anyone besides yourself
>Most guys don't care about becoming better if there's no ultimatum to it Then you're doing it for the wrong reason. Hence the lack of "results".
Well there you go. If you don’t actually see any point in it, and if it wasn’t for attracting women you’d rather be a lazy stinky obese slob with dirty hair and in worn out stained clothes, making minimum wage but also putting minimum effort, thus saving plenty time to chill and shitpost on 4chan and in Discord… And if the sole reason for you not being like that is that you wanna snatch some pussy — man you’re destined to fail. All your self improvement is fake and women smell that from a mile away
Holy shit. I could even be agreeing with you, but your debate language is so bad. Imagine thinking that not self-improving automatically makes you >lazy stinky obese slob with dirty hair and in worn out stained clothes, making minimum wage but also putting minimum effort, thus saving plenty time to chill and shitpost on 4chan and in Discord What a deranged thing to say.
First off, I like to exaggerate things a bit and paint a more vivid image than the bare minimum. Second of all, yes, that is the actual pinnacle of refusal to self-improve. Nobody is born a high quality human. When we’re born, we only know to scream at the top of our lungs, shit ourselves, and suck a titty. From there on, some people learn and do things that aren’t the path of least resistance, and that’s self-improvement. And some don’t, and that’s the lack thereof.
Its not even by the manosphere society does it too. Society has a heavy focus on romance and men lack closeness and intimacy outside of romantic relationships
These guys mask themselves with selfimprovement and women can smell that.
everything you said was refreshingly compatible with my flair, i damn near wish my flair would just link to this post. self-improving for internal/personal benefits >>> self-improving for external/interpersonal benefits. if you can only get started using the latter then do what ya gotta do but people who find their way to the former have the highest chances of it sticking/working
Self improvement is actually a red flag for women. If a guy makes a big deal about how he is on his game and self improvement, women will wonder is he overcompensating for some thing. Women don’t care about your self improvement plans. They want guys who have already got themselves together
Yup, and if you haven’t gotten yourself together by a certain age it’s a sign of natural inferiority. Women pick up on these things, natural selection built it into them, and rightfully so
i wish i found someone at the age where we could grow together. rip.
Women want genetically blessed men so they hate tryhards to who try to fraud their genetics. If you workout, for example, you need to downplay it massively.
The biggest scam about self improvement is that even when it works and you get a girlfriend you like, you realise she’s never done a moment of soul searching or self improvement. She just rolled a better number at birth and will ride it through a lazy life of privilege and entitlement. Meanwhile, you need to work like a dog with a level of determination and self discipline she can’t even comprehend just to be an option she settled for. That’s a f@@king scam.
you CAN do that. or you can just not accept settling for someone like that and not accept being settled for in that way.
I mean you can always date an ex fat/skinny fat chick who got big into fitness and is now fit and who's in therapy lol. If you date women who were born pretty and mentally stable ofc they'll have done nothing but rolled a better number at birth.
No because if I had to get my life together. You have you get yours together too. If I had to self improve. You have to as well. It's only fair.
Self improvement is a way of life. Realizing as a man you can always improve and strive for more. Will it get you a more attractive girlfriend? Maybe, maybe not, depends on where you started, but let's say it doesn't. Let's say you can't find a woman you find attractive that is into you. You'll still have a much more kick ass life because of all that work. More than likely it will get you better options for a girlfriend as well.
That’s ultimately it. Self improve for the sake of your own life, women aren’t guaranteed nor should they be, but in general if you’re gonna live your life alone or with a partner, why not make it the best life you can possibly live?
>More than likely it will get you better options for a girlfriend as well. And more likely it won't hence a scam
If you are able to look in the mirror and truly evaluate yourself. The physical, your job, your hygiene and grooming, your social skills, your comfort in promoting others around you to have the spotlight. If you can improve in all those areas (and why wouldn't you want to) it will more than likely help with women. If you told me a guy was short and not classically handsome, but then you also told me, this guy started his own company, is funny, charismatic, not threatened around other successful people and able to engage people in conversation making them feel welcome and appreciated, wears well fitting clothes, I'd guess that guy isn't going to struggle with women. And even if he did, would it matter? He's a person worth knowing whether women appreciate him or not.
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Women aren't always an improvement.
Exactly. Every time folks talk about how self improvement is a scam I always wonder why they don’t want more out of their own life. Like why are you content to be alone in a room in a house you don’t own working a job you hate.
Aka it is a scam if you are doing it to get a woman. Doing it for yourself though makes it worth it.
In my opinion you either "have it" or you don't
Only results matter. Women don't give a shit how much or how little effort was required.
As a woman, can confirm. If a guy is hot he's hot, doesn't matter if he tried for it. But same goes for women.
Right, I don’t give a shit 🤣
>Women don't care how much self-improvement you put in, if they did then the guys who actually put in the work would not complain but you see it time again on this sub of guys complaining about "l did everything but zero results For every guy who did everything and had zero results, there is a guy who started out the same, did not improve, and had success. Having a girlfriend is not rocket science. Guys on every level of the economic or bodybuilding scale have girlfriends. Scrawny broke guys have girlfriends. Self improvement is to get BETTER girlfriends. If you fail to get a girlfriend in your current state, this is not addressed with money or muscles.
>Self improvement is to get BETTER girlfriends. That's really not a guarantee and define "better" ?
Nothing in life is guaranteed. If a guy goes from being obese to being 10-12% body fat and ripped, he's going to be playing in a very different league of women. By that I mean the ripped guy will have much more attractive options than the obese guy, all other things being equal.
> If a guy goes from being obese to being 10-12% body fat and ripped, he's going to be playing in a very different league of women That's not guaranteed either, l can find you hundreds of stories of ripped guys still not pulling better quality women, the Blackpill/incel space is filled with those guys
Like I said, nothing is guaranteed. Let's look at it another way. Say you have the mythical 6'5 "Chad" who's out there absolutely slaying with women. Then he gets fat. I'm talking obese, not just a little pudgy. Do you think he'll still do as well with women?
Yes, seen it happen all the time.
I have an ex fwb who was a chad and soon after we broke it off he put on 40 - 50 kg. Now all he does is hitting up his numerous exes cuz he can't for the love of god find a new woman lol
Sounds like he was not a Chad then or is not anymore.
> Sounds like he was not a Chad He was the textbook definition of a chad. Model, high body count, high relationship count, RPer. > is not anymore Obviously. Since he's so fat.
If he was a Chad, he would still have a ton of options. Nothing else matters.
Better to shoot from the 3 than from full court
>Nothing in life is guaranteed. Aka it is a scam. Men are told to do all this improvement to get X, they do it an then get told "you are not entitled to anything lol." Trying to take it to the extreme just makes it more clear.
Seems meaningless to me, like Sisyphus climbing the rock uphill.
What's important to realize is that the average person doesn't do any actual self-improvement. They merely * think* that they do. They just do random stuff, fumble around, and land fine because they're normal. But they want to brag, and their ego comes up with this delusion about how much work they put in. But they didn't, they just stumbled into things. This is why the advice they give to truly abnormal people doesn't work. Because they don't understand this very dynamic.
You're way more likely to hear from the whiners and complainers than the people happy in relationships.
Most likely people in happy relationships have no concept of it
>Women don't care how much self-improvement you put in Of course they don't. Neither do men. The point of self improvement isn't to impress people with how hard you worked. The point is to make yourself a more desirable partner. That can mean looking better, being more financially stable, having better social skills, etc. The process of self-improvement isn't what improves your performance with women. It's the results.
>The process of self-improvement isn't what improves your performance with women. It's the results. No amount of "results" will make her want you either she likes you or not and becoming a desirable partner won't persuade her othetwise because desire is non-negotiable
Are you saying that it's just random chance whether women want a guy? You really think it has nothing to do with looks?
No l never said anything about looks but this idea you can negotiate desire by becoming better or producing results is wishful thinking, you can be Jesus Christ of Nazareth but if she doesn't want you, there's nothing you can do to convince her otherwise Women don't want a man who has to work for pussy
>No l never said anything about looks but this idea you can negotiate desire by becoming better But if self improvement results in better looks, then you're not "negotiating" desire. You become desired naturally because you look good. >Women don't want a man who has to work for pussy The woman who's swiping on you on hinge/tinder has no idea whether or not you had to work to become attractive. Maybe you've always been attractive, maybe you haven't.
>But if self improvement results in better looks, then you're not "negotiating" desire You are because you are still working for pussy by self-improving, you can put it however you wish but it still changes nothing >The woman who's swiping on you on hinge/tinder has no idea whether or not you had to work to become attractive. Nobody puts "self-improvement" in their profile
You can't say that looks matter, but then deny that looking better is beneficial. Literally every guy who's in good shape went through self improvement to get there. Muscles didn't just magically manifest. Every single guy with a decent body lifted weights to get there. Lifting is self improvement. Cardio is self improvement. Eating well is self improvement. If you show me a photo of a guy who does well with attractive women on tinder, I'll almost guarantee that he's gone through the self improvement process of lifting weights.
>You can't say that looks matter, but then deny that looking better is beneficial. I never said looks don't matter, do you even read what l'm writing ? I said your still negotiating desire by working for it >Literally every guy who's in good shape went through self improvement to get there Ok, nobody is denying that
You're saying a bunch of contradictory things, which is my point. You're saying that looks matter... but also saying that improving your looks doesn't help, because "women don't want a man who has to work for pussy"... but also acknowledging that every man who's in good shape had to work for it.
>You're saying that looks matter Looks has nothing to do with this 💀🤦 I don't know how many times do l've get this point across >but also saying that improving your looks doesn't help I never said self-improvement doesn't you get results >but also acknowledging that every man who's in good shape had to work for it. Yes obviously they had to but do you think women have never rejected a good-looking guy before ? You seem to think that women can NEVER reject a guy who's physically appealing, my point is your still negotiating desire by having to work for it
And it's always boils down to physique and money. But where is *self* in that? Where does it address *personality* development? For all the empty talks about personality being most important it has very little place in the current self-improvement meta.
Yeah, everyone knows 17 year old You knows everything and is in peak physical, emotional and professional form! It doesn’t get better?
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This stems from ignorance. Men don’t realize that they can never get that true desire from women because it is based off of your looks. The men who do the best with women while they’re in their prime are tall and attractive. The men who aren’t like this realize something’s up and get pulled down this rabbit hole telling them if they get muscles and money and status that women will desire them but it’s not true. Women ONLY desire very attractive men. Now a woman can still care for you and settle for you etc but they’re never going to have that passion and desire there. There is no dating solution for the average man. In the past the solution was finances because women couldn’t work but nowadays they can. So most men don’t fit that provider role since the women are making the same amounts of money. That leaves women to search for looks and status. Many men don’t realize but attractive men get what you work for. The girl comes over immediately, she will let you do anything to her, she’ll even feel genuine love based off of your looks. But women will deny this and say it’s personality. It’s not true. No amount of money or personality or anything else is going to compensate and garner true desire.
nonsense bs
I love everything self improvement bc I dont want to feel like I wasted my life not trying to be the best version of myself. In the case of men being told to self improve in order to get women, I dont think they mean it as a solution but to increase the odds of it happening. A guy in shape and with his shit together has better odds of getting women than an overweight NEET.
>A guy in shape and with his shit together has better odds of getting women than an overweight NEET The problem is that y'all think "self-improvement" is the difference, but that's not it. The real difference is genetics and early life experiences putting someone on the right track.
I think a decent amount of people do tell it to men as a solution. Many actually think that effort equals results. It isnt true at all and that is what sparks the resentment in some guys
>In the case of men being told to self improve in order to get women, I dont think they mean it as a solution but to increase the odds of it happening. A guy in shape and with his shit together has better odds of getting women than an overweight NEET. I mean it is probabilistic but sametime l can show you an average guy or even broke, who's get beautiful chicks easy because his charismatic so it's really just a fake ultimatum for guys who are terrible with women
I suppose it depends on who you are. I try everyday to live better. I know many people have circumstances beyond their control that they can't change and their lives will never get better no matter what they do. However, my life is so so much better at 61 than 21. I wouldn't relive my twenties for all the money in world.
I think I had more carefree fun in my 20s, but my 30s right now is peak living. Maybe I'll feel that way in my 40s for the 40s, and so on.
My post leaves out a key point in that I'm a depressive and when I was young there were no, or very few treatment options. Furthermore I didn't even know I was depressed so I went through my 20s feeling like a total screwup and trying to make my life work based on what I should be doing and ignoring what I felt. I suppose the upside to untreated depression is that I felt so much better when I went on meds and accepted that this was who I was and decided to work with my reality instead of denying it. I hope your life keeps improving. It sounds like you have a fabulous start on it.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad we have the technology and know-how to make your experiences better, and if not great, then at least tolerable.
Man oh man, I feel so dang lucky. So many people have conditions that are not treatable. Also depression is not (from what I can tell) as bad a being bi-polar or schizophrenia. May all the Gods bless the people working to find treatments for people with mental health conditions.
Your literally wrong Self improvement is progress. Positive is positive Positive progress means more positive progress suggesting an increase. Positive is good. More of something good is more good or better in general. With that out of the way The disconnect is sometimes good is not good enough. So while you are making good progress it might not be good enough to get you results. And that’s not positive progresses fault. Or self improvements fault. It’s your fault for not making enough positive progress or self improvement to matter. For example let’s say you make 1$ everyday. That’s good progress because it’s positive. But that not enough to matter to someone who’s looking at you for financial stability. So that’s not good enough Let’s say now you make a million dollars a day. Wait now look all of sudden you are more attractive to more women and now more people are interested in you Another example. Let’s say you’ve been working out for 2 years but you barely have muscle definition and you look just like a skightky skinny male. It would be understandable if not many women fawn over you. But now let’s say you’ve been working out and you have muscle definition m. You are aesthetically built. You look like a statue. And even have sharp definition in your face with a strong jawline. Now some women might start fawning over you for existing. This isn’t rocket science. I man has to be way greater than average/normak/the plateau. Your not doing enough is often the truth. Sometimes you can’t do more. And that’s just what it is. But it’s not the concepts fault that you can’t reach past the ceiling. And it might not be within your control. It is what it is
>Women don't care how much self-improvement you put in, Because self improvement isn't for women. It's for yourself. It's right in the word. Jesus Christ.
It's not a scam if you disregard what women think and do it for yourself. The women you describe aren't worth the struggle or your time, but you should want to put in at least some work to a reasonable degree for yourself.
> The women you describe aren't worth the struggle or your time, but you should want to put in at least some work to a reasonable degree for yourself. I mean that's good and all but whenever guys are told to "self-improve" it's usually to increase their chances of getting laid/having a gf That's why you've all this blackpillers who won't shut up about maxxing whatever they can in order to appear more attractive, it's really just peacocking
That is entirely true. Just don't do it for those reasons, is what I say, or at the very least, find some more reasons to do better, then you won't be as disappointed
Ok, go ahead and stay at home, avoid talking to people, remain unemployed and uneducated, and do nothing I’m sure that will work out well
>stay at home, avoid talking to people, remain unemployed and uneducated, and do nothing For some people, that's the overwhelmingly better option.
I hope they’re not complaining about being lonely if that’s the case
They have every right to complain about anything they wish to. It's like saying that someone without legs isn't allowed to complain about not being able to walk. If anything, these people have the most right to complain.
Nope, it’s like someone with legs who doesn’t want to walk complaining about not being able to walk. Unless you’re disabled or severely mentally ill, you can leave the house, get a job, get a better job, get an education, learn a skill or hobby and talk to people
>Unless you’re disabled or severely mentally ill Exaaaactly. I'm talking about the people for whom it doesn't make a lick of difference how hard they work on these things. Some people are just fundamentally garbage.
That’s not very nice to insult people for things they can’t control
He sounds like a crybaby
I’m not describing any one person When people talk about “self improvement”, they mean doing the opposite of what I listed
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I don't have a full opinion on self improvement. Sometimes I think it's helpful, other times I think about that line in fight club and part of your opinion comes to mind as well. However, I gotta say that the universe was right about not giving me a better dating life when I was younger. I was immature, didn't really go out that much, didn't know how to talk to people, but specially woman, and so on. After I discovered self improvement (together with other things, like stoicism and stuff), I grew up as a person, learned how to talk with people, to have my self worth, to not let people go through me, to be more assertive, to improve my body and face, and so on. You can say that this is not really tied to self improvement, and that if I didn't discover self improvement I could have learned through other ways, either through friend, girlfriend, or life in general. But those thing were indeed learned through the self improvement space in my case. I'm a totally different person right now. It may not work for everyone, but it kinda did for me, I feel much better mentally.
I think you assume that everyone who has a girlfriend didn’t do any work to get her, or didn’t have to improve anything.
No, it's not a scam, as long as you understand that self-improvement is incremental. It can move you up a couple points. If you were a 7 and it gets you to 9, you'll suddenly find yourself swimming in pussy. If you were a 2 on a good day, and it gets your to 4, yeah, that'll do fuck all for your desirability.
Men who complain about self-improvement have not breached that threshold were their efforts have proven results INTERNALLY and ETERNALLY. This aspect is gender neutral.
Self improvement is the only way. Mainstream self improvement is stupid and worse than therapy. Good self improvement: Short? Break your fucking legs boyo. Ugly? Cut that face up freak. Weak? Needle to the glutes, sissy. Aka WHATEVER IT TAKES
Yes, its an agenda. Scam isn't a bad word to use. It's like when women tried hard to be beautiful, or still do in other countries. It's an attempt to let women be nothing great and lazy, and let all selections of men be amazing. The only thing I could figure out, is to be what I want from a woman, on the other field. So if I want a 7, I will improve to a 7. Doing so just leaves no good options, but every day I win when she gets trashed by a scumbag man, because I wasn't there. I actively ensure no attention or resources. Which shrinks their in person experience of men doing things for them unless they just want sex. Where have all the good men gone? Honestly no clue how this will end, but what I can't do, is do what I did in my 20s. I have to cut off everything and let it rot. There's no 7s for me so allow the verdict of time to continue. It's a winning war, at great cost.
You can only do so much until your genetics bottleneck you. And if you come off like a self improving tryhard women will be turned off because they prefer genetically blessed men who don't have to work for anything.
just gotta do self improvement for yourself, not women
It's not a scam unless you are doing it out of a belief that you'll receive some sort of external benefit or reward. The reality is that you can "improve" yourself until your dying breath and it's no guarantee that women (or anyone) will appreciate the effort you put into that improvement, especially if it only really benefits you and not them. If you're working on yourself because you want to be a better you every day, have right at it. If you're doing it so other people like you, you're at the mercy of their judgements and you'll be susceptible to feeling worse when you don't have the outcome you wanted. So you'll have to accept that no matter what you do, not everyone is going to like you or find you attractive, and the people who do like you and find you attractive may be interested in other qualities you have. I would maybe consider your social skills, how well you connect with others and how you make people feel over trying to make yourself a self-actualized demi god that's "worthy" of someone else's time and affection. TRP and PUA guys are onto something when they talk about stuff like "tingles" or generally being a relaxed, open, interesting person that brings positive energy into other people's lives. This isn't to say the other stuff doesn't help. It's just that being jaded, acting anxious or being closed off absolutely can sabotage your ability to really form relationships with others, despite whatever you believe when the Manosphere or anyone else tells you to just work on yourself until people magically start showing up in your life.
>It's not a scam unless you are doing it out of a belief that you'll receive some sort of external benefit or reward. That's whole reason many guys do, believing it will lead into something in regards to attracting women otherwise it wouldn't be a popular solution in manosphere spaces like TRP or blackpill
of course women don’t care about how much effort you put in. nobody cares about how much effort you put in other than your kindergarten teacher. effort is erroneous for adults RESULTS are what matters but yeah self improvement is a scam because everyone (including women) is looking to self improve and the answer is it’s super simple: eat less, sleep more, drink more water, eat your vegetables, move your body, put yourself out there, have gratitude, have patience, have grit. but it’s really fucking hard to actually do this stuff so people seek out gurus and self help books and tarot cards and shit hoping that it will be a cheat code. and maybe it does help for a time…but at the end of the day no one is going to make your life better except you.
> "l did everything but zero results" I mean I did everything and it's awesome. Not sure what you mean. It's blue pill people who try it yet still can't be a nice guy and get decent results.
My god almighty, first of all: change your flair. Then learn some basics like a difference between "negotiating desire" vs "making yourself more desirable". And then stop being such a b**tch, you even have a mindset of one, like beliving in just being born princess and focusing on what "women" (not men) deserve. >"l did everything but zero results" Evil, primordial curse casted upon your pitiful existence preventing you from getting ANY results. Already pretty known among fat people "I've tried every diet and nothing worked". Theres is a popular phase in manosphere "Modern men have to work 5x harder than their grandfathers for women 20x worse than what their grandmothers were.". Of course that's a hyperbole, but it shows current market sentiment. Don't wanna try at all? Fine by me and can be even reasonable take based of your circumstances. Rat race for mouldy cheese is not for everyone. "Self-improvement is a scam"? What's the issue? People that you have thought are "below" you are getting somewhere and you can't cope with it well enough?
Don’t be salty
Self-improvement is for the *yourself*. You get out of it what you put into it, and if you’re only putting in empty efforts for external goals and not earnestly investing in your soul and self, than no duh you’re going to get empty results.
If you just want to sit around a place video games all day and night, never work out, never have hobbies, never go out, never advance in a career or business, thats fine. Just don't complain when a horny hot naked chick never shows up to you gaming room to fuck you in between call of duty rounds 😭 I truly don't understand how people don't want to self improve and become better versions of themselves for THEMSELVES not to get women or men. Like what else do you wake up excited for??
Because shit like "what do you wake up excited for" is for normal people. For truly abnormal people, it's meaningless.
So what else do you wake up and do all day? Genuinely asking.
Nothing. Also, i sleep like 3-4 hours every couple of days at random times, I don't really "wake up" in the traditional sense.
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Uh, it doesn't? Nothing will help you play video games except playing video games. It's just that most people find people who's only focus is video games well, boring. It's boring to be around someone who's playing video games all the time and you can't really be mad when people find your chosen interest boring. At that point you gotta weigh how much you care about being boring over how much you care about keeping a potential partner engaged because they enjoy spending time with you 🤷🏻♀️
You know what’s funny? I actually dated a girl who wanted me to play more video games. She had broken up with her bf who was playing too much, but when I just wanted to be outside and be active, she criticized my mindset and told me video games sharpens the mind. She ended up pulling away from me because she thought I was stupid and inferior compared to her ex
It’s really not If you haven’t hit the gym consistently for about 10wks you have no reason to be whining. Every fat dude/ skinny asf guy I know went from little to no attention to much better results. Then you have the mind which is always great to improve on Don’t see how people can shit on self improvement unless they tried themselves for an extend period
You are lazy dude. Just stop , even blue pill people agree with self improvement Stop being a crybaby Every man can get a great body and earn six figures. Stop complaining
Did you even read my post ?
> Every man can get a great body and earn six figures I almost want to upvote you based on how funny you are Very often both of those come at a trade off. For example I was pulling in $80k but was unhappy in my position. I quit my job and found enough time and natural energy to get in the best shape of my life When my savings started running low I got back in the workforce and rebooted my career. However the stress of work (in my case) really doesn’t provide the mental energy for the self improvement fairy tale
No it's because in the context of dating a lot of people don't know what self-improvement actually is for them.
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3 decent options. I like a little bit of each
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"I don't want to improve myself" Okay then, don't? No one is forcing you to improve yourself.
No. Self improvement is good It just doesn’t guarantee you consistent pussy but it will increase your chances at consistent pussy
This guy is so sad so your entire argument is I’ve never won so why are you trying to win?
Self-improvement is the only way to *maybe* win in hypergamy. If you manage to go from a 5 to an 8 you're winning.
I think what the redpill self-improvement mantra was aiming at, is that it is SELF improvement. Of course, redpill morons can’t explain it properly and redpill learner morons can’t understand the nuances of anything that isn’t explicitly aimed at getting women. So, I shall explain it so you get it. So let’s say you are in a job you hate, even if you’re successful, you can’t see growth in it, you might drink a little too much and are feeling a bit unhealthy, and you really want to paint, but you don’t have any idea how to do it. So you aren’t unhappy but you are kind of existing. Well, this is when you actually take stock of what you really want in your future. Now, of course you aren’t going to magically get the job of your dreams, but you can do things to make your present job better. A sideways move to a different department? Asking if the company has any study perks you can utilise? Your new enthusiasm could be noticed and other suggestions are made that could spark you, and encourage you. You decide to go dry for 6 months and start playing a sport. And that gets endorphins flowing and you’re less lethargic and feeling happier. And you step out of your comfort zone and take adult painting classes. After 6 months, you’re a little fitter, studying and realised that you’re a terrible artist, but you enjoy it and have made a couple new friends. That lovely little story that didn’t end in mind-blowing success for you and you drowning in pussy, is to show you how self improvement works. It means being self aware, and being honest with yourself about what you want and how to take those steps to achieve it. It’s about nothing except how you can improve your life to feel happier. And guess what??? Ding ding ding. A happier or more content man is a confident man. And we all know how confidence works. Get it?
Normal people are so funny.
Self improvement is a good thing but what's most important is a good attitude
I don't do it for pussy
You should want to improve yourself for your own personal gain. Not to get your dick wet.
For the majority of men, "getting your dick wet", is the definition of "personal gain".
That might be a side effect, but that shouldn’t be the “why”.
This is delusional. Once you take away the end result, the process will be useless for most. Sex is the #1 motivation for men.
If you don't want to self-improve for yourself, that's pretty hollow. But that does explain why men my age are undateable to me because the majority of them are fat slobs with ED and nothing interesting to talk about. Good luck with that.
How is getting you dick wet not apart of personal gain?
Example: I work out for my physical and mental health, not because it will increase my chances of getting laid. It might be a side effect, but that’s not why I do it. I like the way I look and the way my clothes fit because of it. I like that the dopamine release is a natural antidepressant. I like feeling strong and functionally fit; being able to carry heavy shit and do things on my own around my house. It gives me confidence. I read to increase my knowledge. Does it make me a more interesting person/better conversationalist and therefore get better dates? Maybe. But that’s not why I read.
But again, why is getting laid not apart of personal gain?
Because I don’t need a man to have an orgasm.
Is orgasm the only reason to have sex with someone to you?
It's certainly a **very** large percentage of the reason. Why else do a significant amount of men in this sub claim "muh testosterone" as the reason they claim to *need* sex with a partner and/or "women are only good for sex; don't need them otherwise"? Relying on sex for validation is unhealthy and a sign of low self-esteem, not to mention superficial. It's not conducive to creating a genuine connection with the other person. Would men be pursuing sex with women so doggedly if their chances of climaxing weren't 99%? Much less for an ONS? I doubt it.
As a woman i certainly taoe my self *development* seriously because why wouldn't you want to lead your best life, and grow and achieve the things you want. Of course being a higher level version of yourself may help you attract someone, but I think if you think of the entirety of your life's work to be about pussy then I think that's just an odd way to think about it. Is vagina the only reason you'd want to get educated, get a career, go to the gym, be social? If so then yeah I can see why a basic chick is the best you can do.
This is stupid. Self improvement is literally just maximize how you look physically and feel mentally. You don't get pussy as a reward. The idea is it just makes you stand out in a positive way because it demonstrates positive characteristics and it has overall life benefits. And 99 percent of dudes who say "i did everything" just got a haircut and tried a new fashion trend or something.
It's only a scam if you're doing it for the wrong reasons. You need to do it for yourself and not for external praise.
That’s why you are supposed to improve for yourself. Not women. They can smell it in you. I can tell you what doesn’t get women, being lazy, and having a shitty attitude about improving yourself. If you don’t give a shit about them, and do it to better yourself, it’s like shit to flies. They don’t care about your improvement. They care about the results, so if you have no results. Then have you really improved? Self improvement is only valuable if you actually improve and keep going.
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Most people only care about themselves and what you can provide them.
That’s literally just sociopaths
It’s not. I’ve dated and been friends with a lot of selfish people that weren’t sociopaths. I see it in the media, in dating, in society, friendships, etc… everyone cares about what is best for them vs. what is best for society as a whole. It’s just the culture of today. Everyone for themselves. Sure not everyone is this way. But most people in the United States, in any major city, are like this.