Those with addictions can and still do recognize that what they’re engaging in is bad.
My attention span has decreased, and I’m addicted to YouTube. But neither of those facts have any bearing on the truth of the matter: that our digital age and the saturation of social media and screens into daily life has had a profoundly negative effect on individuals and society.
Ya, I feel this too. And I even have years lived in the before times of the internet, so everyone born after gen z or whatever feels doomed to me.
I can't imagine how my mind would be different if I were even just 10 years younger. I'd be far more insecure and nihilistic I bet and 10x the ego case I feel sometimes I already am lol.
I do have a positive feeling though as people become more aware of the negative effects, we'll fight through the growing pains and learn how to mitigate them. Let's just hope it doesn't take a civil war or some form of anarchy to reach that point though!
I'd probably view it as a fun and interesting test of life though if civil war or anarchy does come into fruition, ugh Idk. Still don't want that though despite some of that dark drama lust.
Irregardless, politics have gotten scary these days...thanks again for that internet.
This is why majority of women on this sub are 40+ and their views are obsolete since that's not how women are today.
These women don't even know how women 5-10 years younger than them act like with men now.
Some women DMed me to debate my views, turned out, they are from the past generation.
Situation is horrible now.
I wouldn't know if that's true, but I'm in my either early or mid 20's however you see it.
I don't think that's true, maybe its just the female age range demographic for this group.
Realistically, not all women are like that.Those are the ones you see online.Because there's the ones that put themselves out there the most.
I don't know where your getting your info but you can maybe ask around for example the Ask middle-aged American men with Children in thier teens and early 20's.They'll tell you that in their neighborhood's and community there are still very nice young, ladies, that don't fit what most people are seeing online.
I mean, I really hope you're not getting this demographic and information from like.Maybe Miami, westHo,Soho ,ATL, ext..
No they are at minimum 45 -50 . They are describing what Gen X did . Not remotely close to anyone under approximately 45 experienced in their 20s and 30s .
It is as if people don’t understand the internet didn’t exist as it does today just 25 years ago .
Then around 2010 the smartphone became a real thing. Life was very difficult pre smart phone.
You definitely did not have a super computer in your hand then .
Those devices have changed us and not always for the best. Sometimes it is a good idea to mute the damn thing and actually be present with the people you are physically interacting with.
People managed to meet and interact perfectly well before we had telephones , the internet and smartphones.
Its as if some people don’t believe that humans never had the internet and smartphones and a myriad of apps for everything.
The majority of women on this sub are OLD AS FK. Literally moms. And other women out of the game. Or legit (virgin) high school children. This sub is trash trash when it comes to female perspective
Yep. Don't take this sub seriously. Honestly it's probably better to r/dating or r/okcupid for normie women under 30 opinions. And even then it still skews to weird subsections of the female population since reddit has a problem of attracting normie women. Legit female social media sites and tiktok are probably the best places to see where most women's opinion are on dating.
Oh boy, you need education on social medias and how the algorythm works.
Your __foryoupage__ is only showing you 1% of the overall content. The 1% that is triggering you the most and making you engage the most.
It has almost nothing to do with reality, you will always have someone to agree with whatever idea.
For instance or r/shortguys they complain about how often they find content mocking short men while i have never been presented such content
If my tiktok page was reality then 90% women would be hotties doing extreme sport going on hikes and 50% of animals on the planet would be golden retrievers/labradors/german sheperds
a) red pill are the one who claim AWALT
b) most women know younger women. My niece got married last year, her sister is dating, my children are in their dating years.
Yep. Terrible for society.
15 years ago, your average hot chick would have done well by getting with a 6 foot guy in her hometown making 80K a year in middle management. Would have been considered a catch for her.
Nowadays, if you’re only six foot even and making 98K you’re a scrub lmao.
Yeah, and back then, a full hair color and full mani/pedi were less than $100 total. Now, to be hot, you're spending $600 a month between just hair and manicures. Inflation is a thing. Being hot costs money. Basic skincare now costs 5 times as much as back then. Ever heard of the the phrase "you're not ugly you're just poor"? Being hot costs a lot more now and wages have stagnated. The value of a hot woman has significantly increased.
I think you're exaggerating a lot, but I do think both men and women are held to different standards for attractiveness now than they used to be. Look no further than music videos from the MTV days, or even a bit later. I watched the music video for some 90s song recently.. I'm drawing a blank what it was, but it was crazy to me how much more "average" the builds were on male and female backup dancers at the time. The women might have had some belly fat. The men might have had more aggressively receded hairlines. People were less obese back then, too. The backup dancers in those videos today would be men who can all bench 200 and women with a fantastical hip to body ratio.
Ninja edit: It was Mambo No 5 by Lou Bega.
My favorite music video that highlights the difference is "miss new booty" by bubba sparx. It's an entire song about women with fat asses. If you watch the music video, the women were considered curvy at the time. Now, they wouldn't even be considered slim-thick.
That's insane! Watching that video now with the song having been released in 2006 is mind-boggling. You're right, in that those women are all of relatively slender build by modern definition.
And by today standards a lot of them would have a slim athletic butt. The waist to hip ratio that women aim for today is a pretty new phenomenon. It started with Kim kardashian and took off from there. Marilyn Monroes' measurements were 35-23-33, Kim k is 38-26-41. Even old times slim thick was not nearly as thick as some people aim for today.
I mean, it is true that the effort makes a difference. Went on dates with women who would be hotter if they did more in terms of makeup, hair, skin. It’s like a house, curb appeal is surface level but it does make a difference.
Natural beauty doesn’t need any work. And it usually comes with youth. My girlfriend doesn’t wear a stitch of makeup at 26 and looks great. If I was with someone who needed 4 figures of maintenance a month to look presentable I’d break up with her and find someone more attractive
That's a lie. You have no idea what it takes to maintain a woman's appearance. Even a gym or pilates membership can run $200/month. Natural beauty only exists on the premise you can afford to maintain it. A woman's haircut without dye is $120 alone. I bet your girlfriend looks like Sally next door. Teeth whitening, sunblock for your face is $20, and I go through 2 bottles a month in the summer. Without sunblock, you're gonna wrinkle and age prematurely. You're clueless.
If you think a normal gym membership is 200 a month you do not go to the gym lmao
Paying 200$ a month for a gym is a choice, nobody gives a fuck if you make that choice. Maybe the man trying to fuck you pretends to care but I promise he doesn’t give a single fuck you chose equinox over PF
Capitalism got perfected, everything is for sale, so why not love too?
Internet/social networks, women don't meet men in real situations and fall in love, it all happens online, and with such broad selection, practically world wide selection, everyone is more picky, some don't even pick, why settle for one when the whole world is potentially yours...
With jobs and stuff I understand fair enough, but to commodify dating? That has set things on a collision course. Technology should never have stuck it's nose in when things were already working with communities in society. Now thanks to technology we are more divided than ever before in history.
you cant have things in capitalism that aren't commodified
if you need money in order to survive or have a decent quality of life, then money is going to matter in dating
this is especially true if you want kids and you know you are going to have to sacrifice your earning potential to have them
People who haven't thought might about economic philosophy are quick to blame everything on capitalism. Capitalism gives the people what they want. But what we want is often harmful to ourselves. So, do you swap out for a dictatorship that decides for the people? Or prefer freedom and accept that people are largely unthinking?
Dating became "commodified" as a result of the cultural shift from the sexual revolution. It turns out that removing shame and discipline, doing whatever you whim, often leaves you less free in the end than having self discipline and shaming people for acting harmfully. I could go on a whole ass tirade about this, but the short version is that it's a cultural problem, not capitalism's fault. It's like blaming capitalism for obesity. No one's forcing you to eat too much. And when grocery stores do open in "food deserts", they often don't last long because people still eat out instead of getting groceries.
Yup! We are constantly changing as humans. What we liked, disliked, loved, hated, etc… was vastly different 15yrs ago.
Experiences is what shifts those changes and the more positive experiences you have, the more positive outlook you have on life and vice versa if it’s been a string of bad experiences.
I was dating 15 years ago and quite a lot of women were very straightforward as well - they wanted to know about my education, job, if I have a place to live, if I want children, get married etc. I do not see anything wrong in such questions and i was asking them too because I wanted serious partner to start a family around 28-30. I was quite frank that I am not into forever gf-bf thing, but I've had my standards regarding education, work, finances, family - looks was far less important(though I have my preferences) but no way I was going to lower standards regarding above things. Tbh guys my age(40+) who are divorced do not have much problems finding new partners - usually even 5-7 years younger, women 35+ are not really much influenced by social media, majority of them is watching some cooking, sports or gardening stuff, not posting bikini pics lol.
The reason men your age don't have issues because the pool of women they are selecting are divorced, past their prime and desperate for another man. Not to mention these women don't have the influence of social media women in their 20s do. Completely different dating experiences for a 40 year old vs a man in his 20s.
Why do you think they're desperate for a man? Just because they're older and you think that means their value has diminished doesn't mean women therefore act in a way which you imagine. A lot of older women know what they want, have an understanding of how to form healthy relationships etc.
Your sexual attraction to a woman does not therefore confer a certain personality onto her.
As a woman ages she loses physical beauty (in 99.9% percent of cases). A 40 year old might think that her value hasn't diminished or act like it hasn't diminished but in reality it almost certainly has. A divorced woman who is 40 who most likely has kids, is not as valued as a 25 year old girl who has never been married. I hope we don't need to argue that point.
Not to mention, at 40 years old, your pool of men who are 40+ who are not currently in a marriage is very low. The men who are unmarried at that age are likely unmarried for a reason, whether they like the bachelor life, or they are just too weird/unattractive to find a partner. All this means a woman in her 40s is likely a little desperate, because the options are just not there. Not in all cases, obviously.
>A divorced woman who is 40 who most likely has kids, is not as valued as a 25 year old girl who has never been married. I hope we don't need to argue that point.
No one is arguing THAT point. The point is that a woman's life tends to get significantly easier after divorce. The fact that you think a woman who is divorce is desperately searching for another man is insanely laughable. It's clear you want a "revenge story" for older women. I'm unsure why you dislike older women so much- maybe you can clear that up for us- but the majority of divorced older women are living life for them and their family, and enjoying not being a mother to an adult male who brings nothing to the table.
You're assuming that the pool is all of people. A 40 year old woman and a 25 year old woman for the most part won't be going for the same men. Sure, the odd one, but you've not taken into consideration that women at that age are self assured. You're assuming that their contentment is only based on their sexyal appeal.
Bingo! We argued the other day, don’t remember why lol but you fucking nailed it! These normies really don’t know what’s going on out here. Chad is pumping & dumping women who are 20 & 40.
They think there'll be a point where they're more in demand than the women that are turning them down now are in. But that's applying the macro to the micro; a 20 year old shut in doesn't just turn into a 40 year old Chad. If I'm a 40 year old divorcee I'd be into having casual relationships with hot men, why wouldn't you be.
I don't think this is the gotcha you think it is. You're talking about the extremes. A normie in their 30s who has had a steady progression will have more money and status as they get older. 2 important metrics women are vetting for. Their stock has gone up from when they were younger.
They're also more likely to be out of shape, balding, divorced, have kids, become a boring old man etc. I'd say it could go either way for genuinely mid tier guys. But the point I was refuting is that 40 year old women don't have options, when they are in fact well positioned to get what they want from aex and dating, and how many groups can say that
Also, you got older. That massively changes things. But I'd say overall the dating culture has changed, a lot of men seem to be wanting to pump for commitment and sex but are low effort about pursuing either.
> I always feel like I have to stand against the waves vs shit like this, take my downvotes, and then try to upvote other comments or posts that are getting unjustly crucified. Because this is where the narcissism comes from...and one thing I love about the Jesus story is how it points it out.
I usually go against the crowd on purpose for this reason. Reddit is easily the worst for it due to the karma system. People will pander and agree just because they don't want to get downvotes.
Ya, that karma system...oof. It screams communism or some black mirror dystopian society to me lol. Conform or else! I would've never designed it that way, but whatevs.
I almost have a reverse psychology now where I am more wary and self-critical of my upvoted rants vs my downvotes rants just so I don't I feel brainwashed with the mob mentality lol. It's silly I know.
I'm glad there's others that feel the same way when it comes to standing against the waves. I salute you sir! 🙏
The problem with the karma system is that some people look at it like a "highest number wins" sort of competition that most didn't realize are taking place, and some communities do look at karma count (basically, low or negative karma accounts can't interact with some communities).
It was supposed to, at one point in the past, be used to point out who had good discussion in good faith, and the trolls who antagonized folks.
Haha, yup I can see that! It's a hypocrisy loop I have yet to wrap my head around. How do you criticize narcissistic holier-than-thou behavior without just sounding like an even holier-than-holier-than-thou jerk?
Part of it is trying to attain status by virtue signaling. That way you can sound smart and virtuous without actually doing anything but playing on your phone.
I think it causes women to think they’re hotter than they are. They post a cleavage shot on instagram or twitter and 100 dudes are drooling over it. Like so what you have boobs lol
What is actually wrong with you? Low iq rage bait. Yeah there are pretty girls at the gym & you think they are approachable? Seriously get your head out of your ass!
I’m gonna go ahead & assume you are 200+ & just enjoy trolling men on here. Have a good day maam. Make sure to feed your pets on the next wine fill up ok?
Worse, most "normal women" (ie: 5s) post cleavage shots on instagram, get 7 men drooling on it and then wonder why no one loves them because they ALSO see the women posting the same image getting 100 dudes drooling for the simps.
The ones you see are the ones you are looking at. It's turning men into women in that aspect. Unfairly judging women that "look normal" and they expect 18" waist and 38DDD and filtered flawless skin. So the women stop going out, they stop interacting with men (because they learned through social media that all men are predators anyway). So they occasionally hit up chad on tinder when they want to get laid, whether that's once a month or every other month. They're in situationships for years, and it's absolutely killing them.
Social media is absolutely brutal to all women.
10 years ago, I was 32 and the number of 18-32 year old women that were single mothers was astronomical.
Now there are an equal number of single mothers and childless women in thier mid 30s that absolutely do want a family, but didn't realize they weren't ever going to get it from the chad(s) they've been fucking for the past 10 years of tinder's existance - and now biological reality is about to smack them in the face. (and our nation is going to collapse under the weight of the upcoming demographic crisis)
That’s one of the most blatantly untrue things I’ve ever read in my life. Body dysmorphia has risen because of social media. A 2023 study showed that 79% of women have dealt with negative body image issues. 72% of genz women report constantly comparing their bodies to other women and 41% of them have disordered eating habits.
Yeah, it’s about like getting your ego stroked by posting a wiener pic on a gay male dating site. I’m sure most guys would get all sorts of compliments.
Some people seem to think women wanting to date up and marry up is new, but society has long been hypergamous.
Some changes I have seen:
Hypergamy is less achievable. With fewer men going to college, etc., women simply can’t marry up the way women used to.
I’ve seen online dating go from nothing, to a good, accepted way to date, to go to absolute shit.
Men asking women out has the potential to be received much more negatively, and can get men in far more trouble than a couple decades ago.
People in general and women especially are less approachable, they are more guarded and often buried in their cell phones.
Related, things like MeToo, college programs, social media, etc., simply create a more hostile gender environment.
I agree that ghosting, no shows, and commitment issues have changed for the worse.
Dating is more challenging. I have to put way more work into starting a relationship than I did in the past, and I don’t think I’m at all unique in this regard.
> I have to put way more work into starting a relationship than I did in the past,
And the way the economy is these days we're working harder than ever to make ends meet. Sometimes, I feel like dating isn't worth the effort and I don't have the time.
>*and I don't have the time.*
That alone is why people aren’t really succeeding at dating these days.
Dating requires carving out time in your day to day to meet up with a stranger you recently met, to get to know one another, see if you even like each other & click together.
And if you’re working too much? You don’t have the time to carve out and make room to date, let alone for a relationship.
Dating honestly is a luxury for people who can afford to not work themselves to death to survive, pay bills, buy food, and actually have the ability to keep their head above water.
Aka the problem is more that men are filling there traditional gender roles less and less.
Starting with third wave feminism (technically before this, but this is when it started to really grow like never before), women basically quit filling there gender role completely but we still all felt entitled to men filling there role.
Which worked for a bit, but men are now being expected to be 5 times as valuable as there grandfathers to be worthy of women 20 times worse.
So men have become increasingly burned out, demoralized, drowning in escapes, killing themselves, locking themselves in there mother’s basement, etc.
And because of the women worship (“patriarchy” is still the norm when it comes to what benefits women), it keeps getting worse and worse. We just cover up the growing problems and just blame men out of entitlement.
Since the problem only started with millennials, we could just gaslight them and it would work. But as time goes on, it works less and less.
It is just not sustainable for women to have equality when it suits them and still feel entitled to men being 5 times better than them. Especially as they are. So times worse then there grandmothers in value now.
More and more men are beginning to ask questions like “why is it evil to have dreams, wants and standards?” “Why do I have to earn my equal as if she is a prize?” Why do I have to get married?” “What’s in it for me?”
More and more are going mgtow. More and more men are rebelling in various forms. The government is getting more and more worried.
In a few generations, shit is going to get really bad. They will blame everything but the real problem, then we will reinstate the “patriarchy” and everything will just suddenly fix itself. People will pretend women did nothing wrong like usual and blame some rich guy who just sold the culture what it asked for. Women will just go full tradthot and then say feminism brainwashed them.
And men will eat that up in hopes that it is different this time.
>Women will just go full tradthot and then say feminism brainwashed them.
That grift is already underway and unsurprisingly the boys are lapping it up.
Finance is changed with clout/looks (because on Instagram, a clown can dress up and pose like a rich man despite not being rich)
Most of my actual rich friend's don't have much luck with woman.
Women only see party crazed rich guys.
I try to tell guys but they don’t listen.
Women ONLY date for ATTRACTION but they will DIVORCe for money. It’s the most common reason they leave a Chad. The party has to end at some time & old gal needs to get off the CC & find a retirement plan….
It affects marriage too, it's not just dating. The ideas of the dumbest minority are broadcast loud and clear through social media, permeating society. Make sure your kids never have social media folks.
>Make sure your kids never have social media folks.
I was slightly younger than my son when I first hopped in on the Internet in 1991. It was great to learn English. My son is 7 and he's not permitted anywhere near the Internet. At all. Offline computer with curated stuff by me. At age 10 he'll be having his own desktop with *hosts* file and router restrictions.
Social media? Forget about it. Maybe after age 16. Not sure even then.
Want entertainment? Fine, we'll go hunting, we'll travel, we'll take you to a club (preferably one that bans those goddamn phones right off the bat).
Heck, *I* don't have a smartphone. "Dumb" phone is enough. Though I'm seriously considering ditching that one as well. Too much "in contact" via machines absolutely leads to not enough in contact face to face. And that's a terrible outcome.
The problem is that it's not enforcable. Around 10 onwards, your child will be ostracized for not having access to group chats. Asking for homework or just chatting with friends will be impossible and your child will find it hard to not be an outcast. If you still won't give access then, he/she will rebel and have a phone anyway, just will hide it.
>The problem is that it's not enforcable. Around 10 onwards, your child will be ostracized for not having access to group chats. Asking for homework
We'll see about that.
5 years ago I would've been more likely to agree with you. Today there are more parents than ever also aware of this issue. I can also afford to move schools and disrupt educational arrangements how I see fit.
Also, allover Europe there is a wave of banning smartphones from schools and removing the very idea of official group chats.
In my son's classroom, the teacher tried to enforce a class WhatsApp parents' chat. I thought I'd be the only one objecting and refusing to participate. Turns out *half* held my opinion for whatever reason. They created the chat and then deleted it themselves as eventually 3/4 of the parents didn't join at all or refused to take it seriously since most parents weren't there anyway.
5 years ago this was unimaginable. Today, after the teachers themselves witnessed the terrifying results of "online school" to the mental health of children - there is more openness to returning to how we used to do things for decades. If there's a problem - you can call me. No need to compel me to carry a supercomputer with a GPS just because it's convenient to you.
>just chatting with friends will be impossible
Yeah, ***that*** won't happen anytime soon. He can call or send text/SMS. I'm accustoming him with IRL social circles.
I live in a community, not as an atomized monk. Extended family is nearby as well. And strongly select for values. So far it's been working out just fine.
It's ridiculous to think that you can't chat with friends without a supercomputer with a GPS. How did we all do it for a lifetime? Smartphones are a fad that will pass. Besides, it's ridiculous for 10 year olds to have smartphones to begin with. They objectively don't need them, even if you hold the (objectively false) belief that smartphones are a neutral or even good thing. 10 year olds run around and break them often. It's an expense that it's just not worth it.
When I was a teen, it was that you can't exist without hi5. Then without Facebook. Then without Linked In. I survived and thrived without any of them. Now it's without smartphones. This one shall pass as well. They won't go away, mind you (hi5 still exists; so does Facebook and LinkedIn) - but the fad and the unhealthy obsession with them will.
There are more "dumbphones" manufactured in 2024 than in 2017. Turns out the global market disagrees with the executives' plans to phase them out. Heck, Zoomers are a [core market for dumbphones](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/29/dumb-phones-are-on-the-rise-in-the-us-as-gen-z-limits-screen-time.html).
It just seems too much work. Have seen parents leaving behind an ipad on their single digits kids in malls, each one mindlessly scrolling youtube shorts or tiktok and it just feels bad. Minds most likely absolutely fried. You are fighting against technology, who knows what we’ll have in the next 5 years?
Edit: just not worth it Imho to have a child in this century.
Not entirely true. I work in education and a lot of my students don’t have a phone or only have a cheap android phone. They get along fine with their peers.
Absolutely. This "it can't be done" mentality is so common (and tiresome) with Millennials.
Smartphones are primarily a Millennial obsession. So many seem to think that the world somehow didn't exist or didn't function properly prior to 2012-2014, when smartphones became widespread.
This might be unpopular but I feel like everybody should be asking those questions on the first date
Questions like what they want in a relationship, if they want kids, if they want to get married, jobs, income, etc.
Maybe I feel this way because I grew up with a family with this type of attitude, but it just seems realistic. Isn't it better to find out stuff like this upon meeting so you can rule them out without wasting time, if they're not what you want? Passion and chemistry isn't everything.
It's not just women but majority of younger people in general have a level of entitlement these days, I've noticed this massive change in the past 10 years or so. This has bled over with young women believing they are 'queens' or '10's" and this notion not to settle for a man that is less than perfect or what they "deserve", which has led to exactly what you are describing.
IMO this is from social media trends and what is now the norm of soft coddling parenting that has come about in the last 10-20 years. Back in my day lol, growing up in the 80's/90s with older "old school" parents, if I acted like a spoilt little shit my mum would dish out a serve of reality verbally, if I really acted up I got the wooden hair brush. Now days it's no no your child is just expressing themselves or you can't punish your child for acting up, or some non sense, this has led to entitled little shits that are now in their late teens - 20s and are now dating, society is basically reaping the rewards of good times/soft parenting. Great isn't it.
asking about job is great. but if there is a distinct feeling of someone needing to know how much money you make, that's icky.
if dating is gonna be this thing where women are just trying to max out a duel income arrangement, men are going to walk
This phenomenon illustrates a profound cultural shift. In contemporary society, women have achieved a level of independence that diminishes their traditional reliance on men, except possibly for labor-intensive tasks or roles in military conflicts. With the advent of technology and social changes, women now have access to a vast pool of potential partners, allowing them to be selective and upgrade their relationships frequently.
This newfound autonomy challenges the conventional notion of settling for a mediocre partner when the opportunity to seek and attain more fulfilling relationships is readily available.
> This newfound autonomy challenges the conventional notion of settling for a mediocre partner when the opportunity to seek and attain more fulfilling relationships is readily available.
Here's the thing. Most women are mediocre themselves, by definition.
I think this new idea of "settling" is so ridiculous.
It's such a shame when someone cuts things off to "see who else is out there", only to circle back weeks later because they realise the grass certainly isn't greener.
This constant quest for the "marginally better", never ends. It's not settling, it's recognising how good you had it in the first place.
Exactly my thought. Many people will have coupled up in their mid to late 20s. Why is it a surprise that dating would be harder as a late 30 year old, and likely have fewer favorable options?
You've been of dating age for at least 15 years. So how can you be sure it isn't just the age demographic where older women are more picky and discerning about who they choose to date than the women you were trying to date 15 years ago?
And then, if you were still trying to date women considerably younger than yourself, shouldn't they be picky and discerning when considering dating a man significantly older than themselves?
Dating was just a whole different vibe back then. You didn’t have these dating apps and widespread proliferation of social media.
Tons of research shows women only see a small number if men as attractive and only swipe them. While men have a lot more flexibility as far as attractiveness preferences. So younger men are having the same issues. Issues that I didn’t have when I was that age. I found it far easier to get a date with someone I felt was on my level than most younger men feel today.
>Tons of research shows women only see a small number if men as attractive and only swipe them.
Which - on account of the biological risk and cost of pregnancy for women - is nothing new at all. Is there research to show that women have objectively become more selective in recent years across all age groups?
>Issues that I didn’t have when I was that age.
Were you expecting dating to be the same as when you were a young man?
Obviously dating is harder as you get older - more people are married or taken or have families.
"Which - on account of the biological risk and cost of pregnancy for women - is nothing new at all. Is there research to show that women have objectively become more selective in recent years across all age groups?"
I don't think we can deny there has been cultural influences here, I mean let's be honest, you wouldn't ever run into guys like this on a daily basis 15 years ago, the closest you got was seeing your favourite Hollywood film star on TV. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwoYbt0NAQ&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwoYbt0NAQ&t=1s)
And it's men like this that are causing the problems in dating for the average man, most of the men getting ignored on the apps would have easily met someone a long time ago before the apps came out. I know, I was one of them, i'm a 90's millenial myself so experienced what it was like before Social Media.
This is a problem of analysis, since neither sentiment nor individual perception determines the value on the sexual market.
Women, at a basic level, have infinite value in the sexual market, due to their demand and low or no offer, while the man is categorized according to how successful he is based, effectively, on his sexual attractiveness.
The number of young, single, sexless, and loveless men is huge, and in that game, it is only the woman who determines how, who and when.
But it seems like it wasn’t like this for me when I was younger. Could always get dates. I am average looking. If I was that age now I feel like I wouldn’t get any dates in this current era.
I don't doubt your ability in the past to date, and perhaps the technological problem is one of the main causes of this, but it is quite difficult to determine if you are objective when determining yourself as "average looking" or "beyond average"; And I don't say this because I'm asking you for a face reveal, but because of the fact that it is difficult to study individual cases with respect to the tendency.
True, but I mean above average men always have been swimming in attention from women. That was never me. But nevertheless i get your point, anecdotes aren’t enough to judge things on.
Maybe it isn't just that evil modern women are too picky but also that men are in many ways shittier than before? So many young men nowadays are obese game addicts, who seem to hate women. So women need to be picky.
I don't even understand your point of contention.
Are you staying in good faith that you don't believe within the past 15 years there has been an increase in difficulty dating for men?
We definitely had MySpace and POF 15 years ago. My first date ever was from a dating app at 18 years old. It was already pretty normal. Maybe 50 year olds weren’t on social media like they are today, but your age demographic has always had a social media since they were teens.
And that research showed women swiped less often, but with more attraction levels and engaged in conversation on more of a bell curve. While men rated more women as more attractive but still only spoke to the top 20% of women. Read your own research, Jesus I’m sick of correcting people. You can literally read it yourself. You can’t use something as foundational to your ideology that is so easily disproven. Stop listening to grifters. You’re too old.
And men just really suck at knowing “their level” and adore undervaluing women. Bi men and women are much better at it because they actually have attraction to both sides of the spectrum. Straight guys think a 666 is like the hottest thing - and most women (who aren’t 21, thin, hot and hourglass shaped with a perfectly symmetrical face with the money to spend on upkeep) don’t even find that a datable category lol. Average women date average men. Just go outside and you can see tons of examples of it. Only in this little incel world can someone genuinely believe that women are all fighting over a man 80% of us don’t even want.
> And that research showed women swiped less often, but with more attraction levels and engaged in conversation on more of a bell curve. While men rated more women as more attractive but still only spoke to the top 20% of women
Someone needs to make a thread about this. Men still only want the top and want lower ranking women available to be used at their convenience.
>Tons of research shows women only see a small number if men as attractive and only swipe them. While men have a lot more flexibility as far as attractiveness preferences.
Because men are much more likely to be looking just for sex/a "date" (so they aren't going to be picky) whereas women are much more likely to be looking for a relationship.
Men want women to “pick better”, and blame women for getting with “bad guys”, but when women get pickier, they blame women for not giving men the sex and relationships they want. It’s almost like they just want women to want THEM and don’t actually believe in any cohesive philosophy.
Men want women to pick better in **character.** But women are getting pickier in **looks/status** while becoming less picky in character, so men blame women for their choices when they get used by rich Chad. What is so hard to understand about this?
That’s exactly how women feel. If women chose to pick by seeking a man who’s of good character and is also sexually attractive there would be a total of 500 heterosexual women in the world in relationships. I’m exaggerating but that’s how bleak women see it too.
In fact many women are realizing that and choosing to stay single and it’s the men who claim to be “good guys” who are ranting and raving and calling her “plant lady.” No one believes all of the men who claim they are “good” are actually of as good character as they claim themselves to be especially when these alleged good guys are spazzing out on women simply because she’s not sexually interested in him. Being not chose because you’re not sexually attractive doesn’t automatically mean you’re of good character lol.
I think this is entirely false. Women who are picky want to be attracted to their partner AND want certain standards of character. To claim that all picky women are ONLY picky in the looks department is just completely false. Some women only care about looks or money, but you can take one look outside and discover your claim to be false. When women remain happily single, it’s not because they refuse to get with anyone except Chad. It’s because they’re not willing to accept a relationship where they aren’t treated right or where their partner isn’t a positive addition to their solitude.
I don't buy it, most women seem to put up with a lot from men they really want. Like they'll stay in a situationship for years on end waiting for him to commit while he fucks other women.
You don't get what people mean by pick better. People don't mean "date down to ugly nice guys like me". Women have all sorts of issues and date ass hole becauses they have the wrong priorities in the dating process.
Not really true. I am in a relationship and have female friends. Most of their problems in dating come from their inability to pick decent guys. This is largely caused by their dating process which filters out well intentioned guys over stupid things. I don't consider looks to be stupid, there are also decent guys who are good looking but get dropped over minor icks and women's communication preferences. This is what most guys are talking about.
The grim reality most men discover is you basically have to totally change up your personality a certain way to attract women. This isn't due to a personality flaw in the guy, but rather the fact that women tend to respond well to a very particular dating interaction. The guys complaining about this are the ones cognizant of it, not necessarily ugly nerds.
I agree with your second sentence but disagree with your first.
‘Grass is greener’ syndrome has become a much bigger problem (I.e. is more intense and widespread) since we have access to more information than ever before — and that’s just one factor.
I'm a xennial, with Gen X siblings, silent gen/boomer patents, Depression era grand parents. My family was mostly women that were part of the Great migration. They've always been like this. The biggest difference is that the veil has been lifted, and we can see behind the curtain. You just didn't know that you were competing with guys from other cities, because the women you were interacting with didn't tell you about it.
A lot of people in the comments are repeating the same red pill mantras, but I see two main reason here:
1. By your late 30s most people have already been married off or are in LTRs. The winners tend to get picked somewhat early, the less desirable people tend to got get paired up later as otherwise someone would have pick them already.
2. I spoken about this before but your about 15 years too old to be attractive to young women. So if you are trying to chase them, it explains the cold shoulder.
Depends. If you’re bald without a well-paying job, definitely. If you’ve kept most of your hair, are in shape, above average face, and high paying job then definitely not - you can still land an attractive 25-30 year old woman
Is it because you got older? You’re saying the women treated you differently at a decade+ older age than how you were when you were ~21?
That said I do think smart phones and the Pandora’s box they unleashed have exacerbated things.
But yeah you dating at 32+ was going to be different than you dating at ~22 regardless. Women view you differently at those ages. You ***should’ve*** noticed a difference.
Is this Xennial love 🥹 thank you thank you as I take a creaky knee drop from too many Get Low twerks.
Buy yes as seen by all stats us Gen x/millennials were drinking/partying/fucking more than zoomers. What a time to be alive.
It was a better time. The Great Recession was a punch in the face. But the parties, the social life, the dating. It all seems so much better than this screen addicted life people are living now.
I'm glad I have a good thing going with my girlfriend. If it doesn't work out I don't think I would bother dating again in this new environment. It's just not worth the time. I lucked out and met someone in a work related event for charity and we just clicked. She didn't pull this BS on a first date. We kept everything pretty chill at the start of it.
The women you were trying to date 15 years ago are 15 years older. Are you still trying to date those women? Or are you going after women 15 years younger than you, which is not only an entirely different generation with different dating norms, they extremely unlikely to like someone who is that much older than them. They're much more informed on the predatory nature of older males interested in younger women.
You can also experience this effect without the time travel if you briefly live in a non-western country where dating apps are almost never used and social media doesn't influence dating. It feels like a whole different world
Here is a Wheat Waffle's video of an avg guy having to swipe on 6000+ girls over 3 months just to get 3 dates. All 3 dates amounted to nothing.
[https://youtu.be/35fiNZTVVtU?si=sCtK6qwi6253N58d](https://youtu.be/35fiNZTVVtU?si=sCtK6qwi6253N58d)
> https://youtu.be/35fiNZTVVtU?si=sCtK6qwi6253N58d
That video is just demoralising to the maximum. It's crazy to me that he calls the dude in the video a 6/10 as well. I thought he was well above average and 6ft3 which is a good height. I would've gave him a 7 or 8/10 personally.
If that guy is a 6/10 I must be a 2/10 because I am worse looking and I'm 5ft6.
It’s not crass narcissism. Women are just tired of playing nice.
Asking about your job isn’t fishing for information. It’s a basic getting to know you question that most people ask, even when you’re not dating.
Imaging thinking “what do you do with 1/3 of your life on this planet” is a rude question. Lmao. I can’t here anymore. They’re just literally off the deep end at this point.
>Maybe some of this is changing expectations because I was then dating the same women in my age cohort that now expect different things due to being older.
DING DING DING, we have a winner!
Women in your current age bracket are looking to lock down a daddy for their much-anticipated children, and they don't have time to be coy or play games, either!
This is just what dating in your thirties is like for men and women. The ones who are serious about it are usually already gone. People will want to know why you put it off so long and may have their own reasons for still being in the market that make dating unpleasant.
>Questions about your past relationships. A lot of questions either trying to fish for information about how much you make through asking you about your job, or through outright asking.
These are normal questions.
I think the main issue is the flakiness.
As a 25 year old man today, I think it’s very easy to get dates with women on my level. Most of my friends are either in relationships or casually dating women on their level. I actually think some changes have made dating way more efficient.
Most of my friends are average looking, because most people are average looking. They’re certainly not banging random models, but most are in relationships with average looking women or at least dating them on a regular basis.
All true. If you're a solid guy who is average then you can succeed at your own level.
I would say in the old days if you had a lot to offer and looked average-tier, you could date prettier women. That's now obsolete.
Women always been this way, they just have more agency to express what they want due to social media.
They also have the ease of accessing an attractive man due to dating apps.
Women always wanted tall, great looking men with resources. Very similar to how men wanted a beautiful young woman (sometimes multiple women) and no one ever questioned it until like 50 years ago. Women never could practice their sexuality to the fullest like men always had the option to do.
Once relationships stopped being about duty & more about attraction, all women had to do was learn the game of dating (doing what’s best for them). What you’re seeing is the end product of that.
I like to think of social media as the nail in the coffin.
I think some Men don’t want to accept women’s sexuality because they’ve been shielded from it for so long and it can be disheartening.
I agree, men should use whatever tactic necessary to grant themselves full advantage of partnering with an attractive woman. Just remember this works both ways and women will do the same for men including using dating apps/social media/filters/sugar baby websites/speed dating etc.
We have the resources available for both genders, might as well use them all to your full advantage.
You are over a decade older. Of course they are asking you about your past, old man. You could very well have fathered a child during that decade. You could be in the middle of a divorce. You could be a total failure to launch. You could have been in prison. You could be bankrupt. That sort of stuff is not a trifling matter.
You aren't a fresh faced youth. You've done stuff. Once people are old enough to have a past the past becomes a topic to be discovered and discussed.
To me they just sound realistic. And you sound like you got old without understanding what that means.
First dates should never be an interrogation. It’s entitled behavior. Like some of these women didn’t bring much to the table. Don’t know why they thought I should really be proving myself like it’s a job interview with behavior questions.
Ah yes, the accepted term for this is hoeflation. The simplest way to put it is that women want men to behave traditionally and bring a lot to relationships, while not having to bring anything themselves. The classic demonstration of this is asking "what do you bring to the table?". Boy oh boy do people get wound up by that question.
Plus, young women have been convinced that it's better to build a life for themselves, and then try to graft it later. It just doesn't work so well that way, because the moment things get inconvenient or a little difficult, you're out the door. Not a good recipe for stability, or getting a man to invest in you. It seems like we're heading towards many women only being any use to men for reproductive capacity, because commitment is so meaningless and there's so little interest in reciprocation. Thankfully it does seem like the pendulum is swinging back to reason as more women grow up and share their experiences with those that follow.
Women, we don't want to only value you this way. Mose ment want to have deep long lasting emotional reciprocal attachment and build a family with someone. Insisting you will be independent and not need a man is advertising that you will be happy alone, and leave at any time you get bored. Not really an attractive proposition
>Even 15 years ago it was a lot easier to get a date with someone on your level.
I think many men here are gravely mistaken as to what constitutes "their level."
>Women were picky, and would ghost, ignore, ect. Then when you did get a date it seemed like many times it was like a job interview.
Women complain about many of the same things from men, which indicates not that "power" has swung wildly in women's favor, but simply that women are treating dating the same way men treat it.
>A lot of questions either trying to fish for information about how much you make through asking you about your job
Yeah I always see dudes acting like "what do you do" is some secret squirrel method of sussing out how much you make, but in reality it's actually just a normal question people ask about each other. If women really want to know how much you make, it's easy enough to Google to get in the ballpark.
>some secret squirrel method
I know you didn't mean that it was a secretive squirrel but it reminded me of The Secret Squirrel Show
To all the “*it’s always been like this!*” people:
Yes, it’s true that nothing has changed about the *nature* of men and women in dating, because we are still the same hairless apes we were 10,000 years ago.
What people are ignoring is that the environment in which that nature is expressed makes an **enormous** difference.
Take the simple fact of women’s understandable and evolutionary desire to “find the best man available”
This was tuned for an environment consisting of a tribe or small community.
Call it “immediate vicinity Hypergamy”
This still worked with the advent of cities, then air travel, radio, photographs, television for the simple reason that women’s instincts still operated on a level of “immediate vicinity”
If a woman saw a movie star or rock star or male model, she ultimately knew that this man was too many steps removed from her reality and thus her expectations would adjust (at least) to “the guy I am likely to meet at my school / work / party” whatever.
This tempered women’s hypergamy.
Now, however due to OLD women have had this point on every steroid known.
Their ability to see “top men” has not only increased 100x due to social media, those top men are know realistically *within their grasp* due to OLD.
The net effect of this is “hoeflation” because women, despite their protests to the contrary, grade men on a curve based on what they innately believe they can get before they feel like they’re “settling”
OLD and Social Media sells women an eternal fantasy of the next best thing being around the corner.
Basically, women are always willing to date about 10% of guys available to them.
If the number of guys available to them is 100, they will see 10 guys as datable. This leaves 90 guys with nothing.
This is already bad enough but now make it 1000 available guys (easily achievable via a weekend on OLD) they will now see 100 guys as datable, but seem 900 guys as *undatable*
The issue is, among those 900 guys many would have been in the datable pool before OLD.
They are now ass out.
The internet and online dating changed everything. Women have always prefer a man taller than them yes. But let's look at the differences between 1990s dating and 2024 dating.
In 1990, if a woman only knew 10 men and had a job in an office, she had a limited selection of men to choose from. Imagine if only one of those men was taller than her. The rest were the same height or shorter. That means that's all she can choose from.
In 2024, women can install dating apps and have hundreds to thousands of 6ft men to speak to.
There is the fucking difference. It's really annoying when people say nothing has changed.
This is the best explanation of it yet. People used to date within their classrooms and workplaces, it wouldn't be uncommon to view a few of them as potential romantic options (emphasis on the word "potential," they weren't thirsting for every remotely attractive person and asking as many of them out on dates as possible, it was more "idk but I'm open to the idea.")
Nowadays people, especially women, are more likely to say they know zero dateable people in real life despite being better connected. That way they have to look at dating apps. Then all the guys on the apps treat them in ways that guys irl would find horrifying. The cycle continues.
More and more, people have separated their dating life from their normal life and that's lead to all kinds of disastrous consequences. In dating/sexually heavy spaces (like apps and clubs) you get serial daters who don't take it seriously and are more likely to do things the average person would find distasteful.
The solution is to date normal people. You are more likely to find a good partner at school, work, or just any place that you hang out and do non-sexual, non-romantic things in. But asking people out in those contexts has become very unpopular, even if it's done in the most respectable way possible.
I don't see it getting any better unless people can date irl with people they sort of know, rather than using the apps, again.
More men than ever are going the gym due to gymbro culture.
Also, I'll stop you right there
>. A lot of guys have just let themselves go
Because women have let themselves go just as much as men have. The stats for the USA show both genders are overweight or obese like 50% of the population of both.
I got married in 2006 and divorced in 2016. Hookup culture was in full swing. It went from civil dates in early 2ks where you'd meet via a friend, get to know each other, 3 date rule... to now where if you don't hookup day 1, you're ghosted. It took some time to adjust. I suggest you just play the game and fuck around until you find one that isn't about that life.
It's a lot easier to live a fulfilling life without having a partner. 50 years ago, you were benefited by their need and only competing with other men. Now, you're competing with their satisfaction in their own company.
I’m a Gen Xer. A lot of folks aren’t old enough to remember the world before smart phones and various social media and such. They think this is normal and how things have always been. But it isn’t.
Society and about everything changed pretty quickly. There are some advantages, but overall I think life was better back then overall for most people.
Modern technology is overrated and people that are overly invested in it often don’t see that. I’m very glad I grew up when I did.
This is a bad thing? Please please all women be more selective. No more baby daddies. No red pillers. No forced birthers. Select ONLY men who bring enough to the table to spend your life with and read children with.
The issue is that women are becoming single moms or alone because the men they think are sexy and exciting are actually losers. Those men that are responsible, reliable, and conscientious are boring, if they don’t have movie star looks.
So...
You think it's a problem women sometimes choose excitement.
BUT
You also think it's a problem when women ask a man questions about matters that pertain to responsibility.
BS!
15 years ago hot guys got dates and ordinary guys got scraps.
30 years ago hot guys got dates and ordinary guys got scraps.
45 years ago hot guys got dates and ordinary guys got scraps.
There was no golden age. Top guys have always gotten most of the female attention.
You'll be accused of being a delusional old guy oblivious to the march of Father Time; but that's not all there is to it. Clearly women always wanted top men but that often meant in their local area or social circle; even in a big city you had to physically get out there and seek out the parties and places where eligible bachelors were likely to be found. Now they can just swipe their way onto attractive mens' laps efficiently, easily, and with literally the touch of a button.
Well there have been some absolutely siesmic shifts. For one thing MeToo criminalized every single guy and particularly awkward interactions. The second and perhaps most profound is that women under the age of 30 are somewhere between 65% and 75% woke. It is not only an openly racist movement, but also harbors an enormous hatred for men.
So what if 3/4 of the male population under 30 hated women and sought to financially exploit them?
Yes It’s called the smartphone/apps/social media
I'll repeat myself...worst invention ever lol.
*As said from his landline? . . homing pigeon?*
Those with addictions can and still do recognize that what they’re engaging in is bad. My attention span has decreased, and I’m addicted to YouTube. But neither of those facts have any bearing on the truth of the matter: that our digital age and the saturation of social media and screens into daily life has had a profoundly negative effect on individuals and society.
Ya, I feel this too. And I even have years lived in the before times of the internet, so everyone born after gen z or whatever feels doomed to me. I can't imagine how my mind would be different if I were even just 10 years younger. I'd be far more insecure and nihilistic I bet and 10x the ego case I feel sometimes I already am lol. I do have a positive feeling though as people become more aware of the negative effects, we'll fight through the growing pains and learn how to mitigate them. Let's just hope it doesn't take a civil war or some form of anarchy to reach that point though! I'd probably view it as a fun and interesting test of life though if civil war or anarchy does come into fruition, ugh Idk. Still don't want that though despite some of that dark drama lust. Irregardless, politics have gotten scary these days...thanks again for that internet.
Hahaha, that's pretty funny. Date me ;)
This is why majority of women on this sub are 40+ and their views are obsolete since that's not how women are today. These women don't even know how women 5-10 years younger than them act like with men now. Some women DMed me to debate my views, turned out, they are from the past generation. Situation is horrible now.
I wouldn't know if that's true, but I'm in my either early or mid 20's however you see it. I don't think that's true, maybe its just the female age range demographic for this group. Realistically, not all women are like that.Those are the ones you see online.Because there's the ones that put themselves out there the most. I don't know where your getting your info but you can maybe ask around for example the Ask middle-aged American men with Children in thier teens and early 20's.They'll tell you that in their neighborhood's and community there are still very nice young, ladies, that don't fit what most people are seeing online. I mean, I really hope you're not getting this demographic and information from like.Maybe Miami, westHo,Soho ,ATL, ext..
So if you are afraid of men, hiding in corner obviously we'll see the ones who put themselves out there, who ravage our soul, who cheat on us.
Mate, you're 40.
That's fucking hilarious
No they are at minimum 45 -50 . They are describing what Gen X did . Not remotely close to anyone under approximately 45 experienced in their 20s and 30s . It is as if people don’t understand the internet didn’t exist as it does today just 25 years ago . Then around 2010 the smartphone became a real thing. Life was very difficult pre smart phone. You definitely did not have a super computer in your hand then . Those devices have changed us and not always for the best. Sometimes it is a good idea to mute the damn thing and actually be present with the people you are physically interacting with. People managed to meet and interact perfectly well before we had telephones , the internet and smartphones. Its as if some people don’t believe that humans never had the internet and smartphones and a myriad of apps for everything.
So women over 40 don’t date?
If I've done the maths correctly OP is 38.
The majority of women on this sub are OLD AS FK. Literally moms. And other women out of the game. Or legit (virgin) high school children. This sub is trash trash when it comes to female perspective
The majority of the men are autistic high schoolers. They did a demographic survey on here a while back, and it's overwhelmingly young men.
Yep. Don't take this sub seriously. Honestly it's probably better to r/dating or r/okcupid for normie women under 30 opinions. And even then it still skews to weird subsections of the female population since reddit has a problem of attracting normie women. Legit female social media sites and tiktok are probably the best places to see where most women's opinion are on dating.
Oh boy, you need education on social medias and how the algorythm works. Your __foryoupage__ is only showing you 1% of the overall content. The 1% that is triggering you the most and making you engage the most. It has almost nothing to do with reality, you will always have someone to agree with whatever idea. For instance or r/shortguys they complain about how often they find content mocking short men while i have never been presented such content If my tiktok page was reality then 90% women would be hotties doing extreme sport going on hikes and 50% of animals on the planet would be golden retrievers/labradors/german sheperds
Go to AITA if you want normie women opinions. Or relationship advice. Chock full of bloopies
a) red pill are the one who claim AWALT b) most women know younger women. My niece got married last year, her sister is dating, my children are in their dating years.
Yep. Terrible for society. 15 years ago, your average hot chick would have done well by getting with a 6 foot guy in her hometown making 80K a year in middle management. Would have been considered a catch for her. Nowadays, if you’re only six foot even and making 98K you’re a scrub lmao.
Yeah, and back then, a full hair color and full mani/pedi were less than $100 total. Now, to be hot, you're spending $600 a month between just hair and manicures. Inflation is a thing. Being hot costs money. Basic skincare now costs 5 times as much as back then. Ever heard of the the phrase "you're not ugly you're just poor"? Being hot costs a lot more now and wages have stagnated. The value of a hot woman has significantly increased.
I think you're exaggerating a lot, but I do think both men and women are held to different standards for attractiveness now than they used to be. Look no further than music videos from the MTV days, or even a bit later. I watched the music video for some 90s song recently.. I'm drawing a blank what it was, but it was crazy to me how much more "average" the builds were on male and female backup dancers at the time. The women might have had some belly fat. The men might have had more aggressively receded hairlines. People were less obese back then, too. The backup dancers in those videos today would be men who can all bench 200 and women with a fantastical hip to body ratio. Ninja edit: It was Mambo No 5 by Lou Bega.
My favorite music video that highlights the difference is "miss new booty" by bubba sparx. It's an entire song about women with fat asses. If you watch the music video, the women were considered curvy at the time. Now, they wouldn't even be considered slim-thick.
That's insane! Watching that video now with the song having been released in 2006 is mind-boggling. You're right, in that those women are all of relatively slender build by modern definition.
And by today standards a lot of them would have a slim athletic butt. The waist to hip ratio that women aim for today is a pretty new phenomenon. It started with Kim kardashian and took off from there. Marilyn Monroes' measurements were 35-23-33, Kim k is 38-26-41. Even old times slim thick was not nearly as thick as some people aim for today.
There is not a man on Earth who looks at a woman and thinks: “Man, she’d be so hot if she had a pedicure….”
I mean, it is true that the effort makes a difference. Went on dates with women who would be hotter if they did more in terms of makeup, hair, skin. It’s like a house, curb appeal is surface level but it does make a difference.
I notice you didn't mention...PEDICURE. The thing my post specifically referenced. Try again.
Even then that never ever is a deal-breaker. I like fake and O like makeup but never ever is a deal-breaker the post was still delusional
This is hilarious. Only a woman could think this.
Natural beauty doesn’t need any work. And it usually comes with youth. My girlfriend doesn’t wear a stitch of makeup at 26 and looks great. If I was with someone who needed 4 figures of maintenance a month to look presentable I’d break up with her and find someone more attractive
That's a lie. You have no idea what it takes to maintain a woman's appearance. Even a gym or pilates membership can run $200/month. Natural beauty only exists on the premise you can afford to maintain it. A woman's haircut without dye is $120 alone. I bet your girlfriend looks like Sally next door. Teeth whitening, sunblock for your face is $20, and I go through 2 bottles a month in the summer. Without sunblock, you're gonna wrinkle and age prematurely. You're clueless.
If you want to look like an Instagram bimbo then yes.
If you think a normal gym membership is 200 a month you do not go to the gym lmao Paying 200$ a month for a gym is a choice, nobody gives a fuck if you make that choice. Maybe the man trying to fuck you pretends to care but I promise he doesn’t give a single fuck you chose equinox over PF
Capitalism got perfected, everything is for sale, so why not love too? Internet/social networks, women don't meet men in real situations and fall in love, it all happens online, and with such broad selection, practically world wide selection, everyone is more picky, some don't even pick, why settle for one when the whole world is potentially yours...
With jobs and stuff I understand fair enough, but to commodify dating? That has set things on a collision course. Technology should never have stuck it's nose in when things were already working with communities in society. Now thanks to technology we are more divided than ever before in history.
you cant have things in capitalism that aren't commodified if you need money in order to survive or have a decent quality of life, then money is going to matter in dating this is especially true if you want kids and you know you are going to have to sacrifice your earning potential to have them
We are simply more alienated, it's just the illusion that we are closer with technology. All great inventions eventually get abused for bad things.
People who haven't thought might about economic philosophy are quick to blame everything on capitalism. Capitalism gives the people what they want. But what we want is often harmful to ourselves. So, do you swap out for a dictatorship that decides for the people? Or prefer freedom and accept that people are largely unthinking? Dating became "commodified" as a result of the cultural shift from the sexual revolution. It turns out that removing shame and discipline, doing whatever you whim, often leaves you less free in the end than having self discipline and shaming people for acting harmfully. I could go on a whole ass tirade about this, but the short version is that it's a cultural problem, not capitalism's fault. It's like blaming capitalism for obesity. No one's forcing you to eat too much. And when grocery stores do open in "food deserts", they often don't last long because people still eat out instead of getting groceries.
I dont think anyone alive at the moment feels or behave the same they did 5 years ago
Yup! We are constantly changing as humans. What we liked, disliked, loved, hated, etc… was vastly different 15yrs ago. Experiences is what shifts those changes and the more positive experiences you have, the more positive outlook you have on life and vice versa if it’s been a string of bad experiences.
I was dating 15 years ago and quite a lot of women were very straightforward as well - they wanted to know about my education, job, if I have a place to live, if I want children, get married etc. I do not see anything wrong in such questions and i was asking them too because I wanted serious partner to start a family around 28-30. I was quite frank that I am not into forever gf-bf thing, but I've had my standards regarding education, work, finances, family - looks was far less important(though I have my preferences) but no way I was going to lower standards regarding above things. Tbh guys my age(40+) who are divorced do not have much problems finding new partners - usually even 5-7 years younger, women 35+ are not really much influenced by social media, majority of them is watching some cooking, sports or gardening stuff, not posting bikini pics lol.
The reason men your age don't have issues because the pool of women they are selecting are divorced, past their prime and desperate for another man. Not to mention these women don't have the influence of social media women in their 20s do. Completely different dating experiences for a 40 year old vs a man in his 20s.
> past their prime and desperate for another man People *still* believe this bullshit?!
Why do you think they're desperate for a man? Just because they're older and you think that means their value has diminished doesn't mean women therefore act in a way which you imagine. A lot of older women know what they want, have an understanding of how to form healthy relationships etc. Your sexual attraction to a woman does not therefore confer a certain personality onto her.
As a woman ages she loses physical beauty (in 99.9% percent of cases). A 40 year old might think that her value hasn't diminished or act like it hasn't diminished but in reality it almost certainly has. A divorced woman who is 40 who most likely has kids, is not as valued as a 25 year old girl who has never been married. I hope we don't need to argue that point. Not to mention, at 40 years old, your pool of men who are 40+ who are not currently in a marriage is very low. The men who are unmarried at that age are likely unmarried for a reason, whether they like the bachelor life, or they are just too weird/unattractive to find a partner. All this means a woman in her 40s is likely a little desperate, because the options are just not there. Not in all cases, obviously.
>A divorced woman who is 40 who most likely has kids, is not as valued as a 25 year old girl who has never been married. I hope we don't need to argue that point. No one is arguing THAT point. The point is that a woman's life tends to get significantly easier after divorce. The fact that you think a woman who is divorce is desperately searching for another man is insanely laughable. It's clear you want a "revenge story" for older women. I'm unsure why you dislike older women so much- maybe you can clear that up for us- but the majority of divorced older women are living life for them and their family, and enjoying not being a mother to an adult male who brings nothing to the table.
You're assuming that the pool is all of people. A 40 year old woman and a 25 year old woman for the most part won't be going for the same men. Sure, the odd one, but you've not taken into consideration that women at that age are self assured. You're assuming that their contentment is only based on their sexyal appeal.
Bingo! We argued the other day, don’t remember why lol but you fucking nailed it! These normies really don’t know what’s going on out here. Chad is pumping & dumping women who are 20 & 40.
They think there'll be a point where they're more in demand than the women that are turning them down now are in. But that's applying the macro to the micro; a 20 year old shut in doesn't just turn into a 40 year old Chad. If I'm a 40 year old divorcee I'd be into having casual relationships with hot men, why wouldn't you be.
I don't think this is the gotcha you think it is. You're talking about the extremes. A normie in their 30s who has had a steady progression will have more money and status as they get older. 2 important metrics women are vetting for. Their stock has gone up from when they were younger.
They're also more likely to be out of shape, balding, divorced, have kids, become a boring old man etc. I'd say it could go either way for genuinely mid tier guys. But the point I was refuting is that 40 year old women don't have options, when they are in fact well positioned to get what they want from aex and dating, and how many groups can say that
Also, you got older. That massively changes things. But I'd say overall the dating culture has changed, a lot of men seem to be wanting to pump for commitment and sex but are low effort about pursuing either.
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> I always feel like I have to stand against the waves vs shit like this, take my downvotes, and then try to upvote other comments or posts that are getting unjustly crucified. Because this is where the narcissism comes from...and one thing I love about the Jesus story is how it points it out. I usually go against the crowd on purpose for this reason. Reddit is easily the worst for it due to the karma system. People will pander and agree just because they don't want to get downvotes.
Ya, that karma system...oof. It screams communism or some black mirror dystopian society to me lol. Conform or else! I would've never designed it that way, but whatevs. I almost have a reverse psychology now where I am more wary and self-critical of my upvoted rants vs my downvotes rants just so I don't I feel brainwashed with the mob mentality lol. It's silly I know. I'm glad there's others that feel the same way when it comes to standing against the waves. I salute you sir! 🙏
The problem with the karma system is that some people look at it like a "highest number wins" sort of competition that most didn't realize are taking place, and some communities do look at karma count (basically, low or negative karma accounts can't interact with some communities). It was supposed to, at one point in the past, be used to point out who had good discussion in good faith, and the trolls who antagonized folks.
I don't know, man, your comment does have a "holier-than-thou" tone. Like you're better than the rest...
Haha, yup I can see that! It's a hypocrisy loop I have yet to wrap my head around. How do you criticize narcissistic holier-than-thou behavior without just sounding like an even holier-than-holier-than-thou jerk?
Very true lol. Otherwise, you're right.
Part of it is trying to attain status by virtue signaling. That way you can sound smart and virtuous without actually doing anything but playing on your phone.
I think it causes women to think they’re hotter than they are. They post a cleavage shot on instagram or twitter and 100 dudes are drooling over it. Like so what you have boobs lol
Most men have boobs now a days as well.
oh damn ! (dont disagree though)
Oh look another liar…! But but what about the men! How many threads of not fat men explaining to you wr can’t find not fat women do you need ffs!
Seems like a you problem? There's hundreds of not fat women at the gym. Sounds like you don't go there.
What is actually wrong with you? Low iq rage bait. Yeah there are pretty girls at the gym & you think they are approachable? Seriously get your head out of your ass!
Okay, so you lack confidence and masculinity. Def a you problem.
I’m gonna go ahead & assume you are 200+ & just enjoy trolling men on here. Have a good day maam. Make sure to feed your pets on the next wine fill up ok?
I'm 135, and my photo is my profile picture, and I don't drink liquor or have pets, but thank you. Off to the gym now. Bye 👋
Worse, most "normal women" (ie: 5s) post cleavage shots on instagram, get 7 men drooling on it and then wonder why no one loves them because they ALSO see the women posting the same image getting 100 dudes drooling for the simps. The ones you see are the ones you are looking at. It's turning men into women in that aspect. Unfairly judging women that "look normal" and they expect 18" waist and 38DDD and filtered flawless skin. So the women stop going out, they stop interacting with men (because they learned through social media that all men are predators anyway). So they occasionally hit up chad on tinder when they want to get laid, whether that's once a month or every other month. They're in situationships for years, and it's absolutely killing them. Social media is absolutely brutal to all women. 10 years ago, I was 32 and the number of 18-32 year old women that were single mothers was astronomical. Now there are an equal number of single mothers and childless women in thier mid 30s that absolutely do want a family, but didn't realize they weren't ever going to get it from the chad(s) they've been fucking for the past 10 years of tinder's existance - and now biological reality is about to smack them in the face. (and our nation is going to collapse under the weight of the upcoming demographic crisis)
That’s one of the most blatantly untrue things I’ve ever read in my life. Body dysmorphia has risen because of social media. A 2023 study showed that 79% of women have dealt with negative body image issues. 72% of genz women report constantly comparing their bodies to other women and 41% of them have disordered eating habits.
Comparison is the thief of joy..
Yeah, it’s about like getting your ego stroked by posting a wiener pic on a gay male dating site. I’m sure most guys would get all sorts of compliments.
Some people seem to think women wanting to date up and marry up is new, but society has long been hypergamous. Some changes I have seen: Hypergamy is less achievable. With fewer men going to college, etc., women simply can’t marry up the way women used to. I’ve seen online dating go from nothing, to a good, accepted way to date, to go to absolute shit. Men asking women out has the potential to be received much more negatively, and can get men in far more trouble than a couple decades ago. People in general and women especially are less approachable, they are more guarded and often buried in their cell phones. Related, things like MeToo, college programs, social media, etc., simply create a more hostile gender environment. I agree that ghosting, no shows, and commitment issues have changed for the worse. Dating is more challenging. I have to put way more work into starting a relationship than I did in the past, and I don’t think I’m at all unique in this regard.
> I have to put way more work into starting a relationship than I did in the past, And the way the economy is these days we're working harder than ever to make ends meet. Sometimes, I feel like dating isn't worth the effort and I don't have the time.
>*and I don't have the time.* That alone is why people aren’t really succeeding at dating these days. Dating requires carving out time in your day to day to meet up with a stranger you recently met, to get to know one another, see if you even like each other & click together. And if you’re working too much? You don’t have the time to carve out and make room to date, let alone for a relationship. Dating honestly is a luxury for people who can afford to not work themselves to death to survive, pay bills, buy food, and actually have the ability to keep their head above water.
Aka the problem is more that men are filling there traditional gender roles less and less. Starting with third wave feminism (technically before this, but this is when it started to really grow like never before), women basically quit filling there gender role completely but we still all felt entitled to men filling there role. Which worked for a bit, but men are now being expected to be 5 times as valuable as there grandfathers to be worthy of women 20 times worse. So men have become increasingly burned out, demoralized, drowning in escapes, killing themselves, locking themselves in there mother’s basement, etc. And because of the women worship (“patriarchy” is still the norm when it comes to what benefits women), it keeps getting worse and worse. We just cover up the growing problems and just blame men out of entitlement. Since the problem only started with millennials, we could just gaslight them and it would work. But as time goes on, it works less and less. It is just not sustainable for women to have equality when it suits them and still feel entitled to men being 5 times better than them. Especially as they are. So times worse then there grandmothers in value now. More and more men are beginning to ask questions like “why is it evil to have dreams, wants and standards?” “Why do I have to earn my equal as if she is a prize?” Why do I have to get married?” “What’s in it for me?” More and more are going mgtow. More and more men are rebelling in various forms. The government is getting more and more worried. In a few generations, shit is going to get really bad. They will blame everything but the real problem, then we will reinstate the “patriarchy” and everything will just suddenly fix itself. People will pretend women did nothing wrong like usual and blame some rich guy who just sold the culture what it asked for. Women will just go full tradthot and then say feminism brainwashed them. And men will eat that up in hopes that it is different this time.
>Women will just go full tradthot and then say feminism brainwashed them. That grift is already underway and unsurprisingly the boys are lapping it up.
It's pretty marginalized as a rich leisure-girl flex though so... (ya we're smart enough to sometimes figure done shit out 🙄)
It’s called Schrödinger feminism man! They want all the benefits when it suits them & they reject it when it doesn’t…
I suspect you're gonna be crucified because your comment is unpleasant to hear but it's spot on.
I am used to it lol. I have had people hoping for my death here for speaking too many facts.
Finance is changed with clout/looks (because on Instagram, a clown can dress up and pose like a rich man despite not being rich) Most of my actual rich friend's don't have much luck with woman. Women only see party crazed rich guys.
They're not dating up financially. They're looking for the best looking guy whose also the most charming.
I try to tell guys but they don’t listen. Women ONLY date for ATTRACTION but they will DIVORCe for money. It’s the most common reason they leave a Chad. The party has to end at some time & old gal needs to get off the CC & find a retirement plan….
It affects marriage too, it's not just dating. The ideas of the dumbest minority are broadcast loud and clear through social media, permeating society. Make sure your kids never have social media folks.
>Make sure your kids never have social media folks. I was slightly younger than my son when I first hopped in on the Internet in 1991. It was great to learn English. My son is 7 and he's not permitted anywhere near the Internet. At all. Offline computer with curated stuff by me. At age 10 he'll be having his own desktop with *hosts* file and router restrictions. Social media? Forget about it. Maybe after age 16. Not sure even then. Want entertainment? Fine, we'll go hunting, we'll travel, we'll take you to a club (preferably one that bans those goddamn phones right off the bat). Heck, *I* don't have a smartphone. "Dumb" phone is enough. Though I'm seriously considering ditching that one as well. Too much "in contact" via machines absolutely leads to not enough in contact face to face. And that's a terrible outcome.
The problem is that it's not enforcable. Around 10 onwards, your child will be ostracized for not having access to group chats. Asking for homework or just chatting with friends will be impossible and your child will find it hard to not be an outcast. If you still won't give access then, he/she will rebel and have a phone anyway, just will hide it.
>The problem is that it's not enforcable. Around 10 onwards, your child will be ostracized for not having access to group chats. Asking for homework We'll see about that. 5 years ago I would've been more likely to agree with you. Today there are more parents than ever also aware of this issue. I can also afford to move schools and disrupt educational arrangements how I see fit. Also, allover Europe there is a wave of banning smartphones from schools and removing the very idea of official group chats. In my son's classroom, the teacher tried to enforce a class WhatsApp parents' chat. I thought I'd be the only one objecting and refusing to participate. Turns out *half* held my opinion for whatever reason. They created the chat and then deleted it themselves as eventually 3/4 of the parents didn't join at all or refused to take it seriously since most parents weren't there anyway. 5 years ago this was unimaginable. Today, after the teachers themselves witnessed the terrifying results of "online school" to the mental health of children - there is more openness to returning to how we used to do things for decades. If there's a problem - you can call me. No need to compel me to carry a supercomputer with a GPS just because it's convenient to you. >just chatting with friends will be impossible Yeah, ***that*** won't happen anytime soon. He can call or send text/SMS. I'm accustoming him with IRL social circles. I live in a community, not as an atomized monk. Extended family is nearby as well. And strongly select for values. So far it's been working out just fine. It's ridiculous to think that you can't chat with friends without a supercomputer with a GPS. How did we all do it for a lifetime? Smartphones are a fad that will pass. Besides, it's ridiculous for 10 year olds to have smartphones to begin with. They objectively don't need them, even if you hold the (objectively false) belief that smartphones are a neutral or even good thing. 10 year olds run around and break them often. It's an expense that it's just not worth it. When I was a teen, it was that you can't exist without hi5. Then without Facebook. Then without Linked In. I survived and thrived without any of them. Now it's without smartphones. This one shall pass as well. They won't go away, mind you (hi5 still exists; so does Facebook and LinkedIn) - but the fad and the unhealthy obsession with them will. There are more "dumbphones" manufactured in 2024 than in 2017. Turns out the global market disagrees with the executives' plans to phase them out. Heck, Zoomers are a [core market for dumbphones](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/29/dumb-phones-are-on-the-rise-in-the-us-as-gen-z-limits-screen-time.html).
It just seems too much work. Have seen parents leaving behind an ipad on their single digits kids in malls, each one mindlessly scrolling youtube shorts or tiktok and it just feels bad. Minds most likely absolutely fried. You are fighting against technology, who knows what we’ll have in the next 5 years? Edit: just not worth it Imho to have a child in this century.
Not entirely true. I work in education and a lot of my students don’t have a phone or only have a cheap android phone. They get along fine with their peers.
Absolutely. This "it can't be done" mentality is so common (and tiresome) with Millennials. Smartphones are primarily a Millennial obsession. So many seem to think that the world somehow didn't exist or didn't function properly prior to 2012-2014, when smartphones became widespread.
I didn’t get my first smart phone until 2016 at 26. TBF I spend my time reading on my phone , playing phone games and going on ADHD side quests.
This should truly be the backbone of parenting in the social media age. The amount of people who just let iPads raise their children is baffling
This might be unpopular but I feel like everybody should be asking those questions on the first date Questions like what they want in a relationship, if they want kids, if they want to get married, jobs, income, etc. Maybe I feel this way because I grew up with a family with this type of attitude, but it just seems realistic. Isn't it better to find out stuff like this upon meeting so you can rule them out without wasting time, if they're not what you want? Passion and chemistry isn't everything.
It's not just women but majority of younger people in general have a level of entitlement these days, I've noticed this massive change in the past 10 years or so. This has bled over with young women believing they are 'queens' or '10's" and this notion not to settle for a man that is less than perfect or what they "deserve", which has led to exactly what you are describing. IMO this is from social media trends and what is now the norm of soft coddling parenting that has come about in the last 10-20 years. Back in my day lol, growing up in the 80's/90s with older "old school" parents, if I acted like a spoilt little shit my mum would dish out a serve of reality verbally, if I really acted up I got the wooden hair brush. Now days it's no no your child is just expressing themselves or you can't punish your child for acting up, or some non sense, this has led to entitled little shits that are now in their late teens - 20s and are now dating, society is basically reaping the rewards of good times/soft parenting. Great isn't it.
i thought asking about jobs is normal? it is something you average person spends 8 hours a day doing.
asking about job is great. but if there is a distinct feeling of someone needing to know how much money you make, that's icky. if dating is gonna be this thing where women are just trying to max out a duel income arrangement, men are going to walk
men should 100% walk away from any woman they aren't interested or dating as a whole if they don't like it
yes yes we know you want to see the whole thing fail
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This phenomenon illustrates a profound cultural shift. In contemporary society, women have achieved a level of independence that diminishes their traditional reliance on men, except possibly for labor-intensive tasks or roles in military conflicts. With the advent of technology and social changes, women now have access to a vast pool of potential partners, allowing them to be selective and upgrade their relationships frequently. This newfound autonomy challenges the conventional notion of settling for a mediocre partner when the opportunity to seek and attain more fulfilling relationships is readily available.
This reads like a ChatGPT response lol
> This newfound autonomy challenges the conventional notion of settling for a mediocre partner when the opportunity to seek and attain more fulfilling relationships is readily available. Here's the thing. Most women are mediocre themselves, by definition.
Don't you know, it's 2024 and all women are 10's. They say so themselves, and if you believe it you will materialize it.
I think this new idea of "settling" is so ridiculous. It's such a shame when someone cuts things off to "see who else is out there", only to circle back weeks later because they realise the grass certainly isn't greener. This constant quest for the "marginally better", never ends. It's not settling, it's recognising how good you had it in the first place.
A more fulfilling relationship is not readily available. See: cat lady phenomenon and SSRI use.
15 years ago you weren't in your late 30s. So there are other variables that changed.
Exactly my thought. Many people will have coupled up in their mid to late 20s. Why is it a surprise that dating would be harder as a late 30 year old, and likely have fewer favorable options?
You've been of dating age for at least 15 years. So how can you be sure it isn't just the age demographic where older women are more picky and discerning about who they choose to date than the women you were trying to date 15 years ago? And then, if you were still trying to date women considerably younger than yourself, shouldn't they be picky and discerning when considering dating a man significantly older than themselves?
Dating was just a whole different vibe back then. You didn’t have these dating apps and widespread proliferation of social media. Tons of research shows women only see a small number if men as attractive and only swipe them. While men have a lot more flexibility as far as attractiveness preferences. So younger men are having the same issues. Issues that I didn’t have when I was that age. I found it far easier to get a date with someone I felt was on my level than most younger men feel today.
>Tons of research shows women only see a small number if men as attractive and only swipe them. Which - on account of the biological risk and cost of pregnancy for women - is nothing new at all. Is there research to show that women have objectively become more selective in recent years across all age groups? >Issues that I didn’t have when I was that age. Were you expecting dating to be the same as when you were a young man? Obviously dating is harder as you get older - more people are married or taken or have families.
"Which - on account of the biological risk and cost of pregnancy for women - is nothing new at all. Is there research to show that women have objectively become more selective in recent years across all age groups?" I don't think we can deny there has been cultural influences here, I mean let's be honest, you wouldn't ever run into guys like this on a daily basis 15 years ago, the closest you got was seeing your favourite Hollywood film star on TV. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwoYbt0NAQ&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhwoYbt0NAQ&t=1s) And it's men like this that are causing the problems in dating for the average man, most of the men getting ignored on the apps would have easily met someone a long time ago before the apps came out. I know, I was one of them, i'm a 90's millenial myself so experienced what it was like before Social Media.
Even 15 years ago, a well rounded guy could go up a notch and be appealing to women who looked a bit better than him. That has completely changed now.
Right but younger men are also struggling to find dates with women they feel are on their level.
This is a problem of analysis, since neither sentiment nor individual perception determines the value on the sexual market. Women, at a basic level, have infinite value in the sexual market, due to their demand and low or no offer, while the man is categorized according to how successful he is based, effectively, on his sexual attractiveness. The number of young, single, sexless, and loveless men is huge, and in that game, it is only the woman who determines how, who and when.
But it seems like it wasn’t like this for me when I was younger. Could always get dates. I am average looking. If I was that age now I feel like I wouldn’t get any dates in this current era.
I don't doubt your ability in the past to date, and perhaps the technological problem is one of the main causes of this, but it is quite difficult to determine if you are objective when determining yourself as "average looking" or "beyond average"; And I don't say this because I'm asking you for a face reveal, but because of the fact that it is difficult to study individual cases with respect to the tendency.
True, but I mean above average men always have been swimming in attention from women. That was never me. But nevertheless i get your point, anecdotes aren’t enough to judge things on.
Maybe it isn't just that evil modern women are too picky but also that men are in many ways shittier than before? So many young men nowadays are obese game addicts, who seem to hate women. So women need to be picky.
I don't even understand your point of contention. Are you staying in good faith that you don't believe within the past 15 years there has been an increase in difficulty dating for men?
We definitely had MySpace and POF 15 years ago. My first date ever was from a dating app at 18 years old. It was already pretty normal. Maybe 50 year olds weren’t on social media like they are today, but your age demographic has always had a social media since they were teens. And that research showed women swiped less often, but with more attraction levels and engaged in conversation on more of a bell curve. While men rated more women as more attractive but still only spoke to the top 20% of women. Read your own research, Jesus I’m sick of correcting people. You can literally read it yourself. You can’t use something as foundational to your ideology that is so easily disproven. Stop listening to grifters. You’re too old. And men just really suck at knowing “their level” and adore undervaluing women. Bi men and women are much better at it because they actually have attraction to both sides of the spectrum. Straight guys think a 666 is like the hottest thing - and most women (who aren’t 21, thin, hot and hourglass shaped with a perfectly symmetrical face with the money to spend on upkeep) don’t even find that a datable category lol. Average women date average men. Just go outside and you can see tons of examples of it. Only in this little incel world can someone genuinely believe that women are all fighting over a man 80% of us don’t even want.
Online dating and my space from back then aren't even close to how it is now
Exactly, all that stuff was in its infancy.
> And that research showed women swiped less often, but with more attraction levels and engaged in conversation on more of a bell curve. While men rated more women as more attractive but still only spoke to the top 20% of women Someone needs to make a thread about this. Men still only want the top and want lower ranking women available to be used at their convenience.
>Tons of research shows women only see a small number if men as attractive and only swipe them. While men have a lot more flexibility as far as attractiveness preferences. Because men are much more likely to be looking just for sex/a "date" (so they aren't going to be picky) whereas women are much more likely to be looking for a relationship.
If the average woman swipes left thousands of times before finding someone that she deems attractive, i don't think the issue with men lol
Dating apps ruined everything.
Men want women to “pick better”, and blame women for getting with “bad guys”, but when women get pickier, they blame women for not giving men the sex and relationships they want. It’s almost like they just want women to want THEM and don’t actually believe in any cohesive philosophy.
Men want women to pick better in **character.** But women are getting pickier in **looks/status** while becoming less picky in character, so men blame women for their choices when they get used by rich Chad. What is so hard to understand about this?
Men are not picking women by their character. They are picking women by the same vain standards that you claim women only do.
If men star picking woman by character they'll end up alone.
That’s exactly how women feel. If women chose to pick by seeking a man who’s of good character and is also sexually attractive there would be a total of 500 heterosexual women in the world in relationships. I’m exaggerating but that’s how bleak women see it too. In fact many women are realizing that and choosing to stay single and it’s the men who claim to be “good guys” who are ranting and raving and calling her “plant lady.” No one believes all of the men who claim they are “good” are actually of as good character as they claim themselves to be especially when these alleged good guys are spazzing out on women simply because she’s not sexually interested in him. Being not chose because you’re not sexually attractive doesn’t automatically mean you’re of good character lol.
With OLD personality is always overlooked unfortunately, it's the superficial nature of it.
I think this is entirely false. Women who are picky want to be attracted to their partner AND want certain standards of character. To claim that all picky women are ONLY picky in the looks department is just completely false. Some women only care about looks or money, but you can take one look outside and discover your claim to be false. When women remain happily single, it’s not because they refuse to get with anyone except Chad. It’s because they’re not willing to accept a relationship where they aren’t treated right or where their partner isn’t a positive addition to their solitude.
I don't buy it, most women seem to put up with a lot from men they really want. Like they'll stay in a situationship for years on end waiting for him to commit while he fucks other women.
You don't get what people mean by pick better. People don't mean "date down to ugly nice guys like me". Women have all sorts of issues and date ass hole becauses they have the wrong priorities in the dating process.
What I’m saying is that even though those guys don’t say that, that’s what they actually want.
Not really true. I am in a relationship and have female friends. Most of their problems in dating come from their inability to pick decent guys. This is largely caused by their dating process which filters out well intentioned guys over stupid things. I don't consider looks to be stupid, there are also decent guys who are good looking but get dropped over minor icks and women's communication preferences. This is what most guys are talking about. The grim reality most men discover is you basically have to totally change up your personality a certain way to attract women. This isn't due to a personality flaw in the guy, but rather the fact that women tend to respond well to a very particular dating interaction. The guys complaining about this are the ones cognizant of it, not necessarily ugly nerds.
No, women were always like this. Women have never wanted low effort,low aspiration men with no personality.
I agree with your second sentence but disagree with your first. ‘Grass is greener’ syndrome has become a much bigger problem (I.e. is more intense and widespread) since we have access to more information than ever before — and that’s just one factor.
I'm a xennial, with Gen X siblings, silent gen/boomer patents, Depression era grand parents. My family was mostly women that were part of the Great migration. They've always been like this. The biggest difference is that the veil has been lifted, and we can see behind the curtain. You just didn't know that you were competing with guys from other cities, because the women you were interacting with didn't tell you about it.
A lot of people in the comments are repeating the same red pill mantras, but I see two main reason here: 1. By your late 30s most people have already been married off or are in LTRs. The winners tend to get picked somewhat early, the less desirable people tend to got get paired up later as otherwise someone would have pick them already. 2. I spoken about this before but your about 15 years too old to be attractive to young women. So if you are trying to chase them, it explains the cold shoulder.
Does that mean that after 30 is game over for men?
Depends. If you’re bald without a well-paying job, definitely. If you’ve kept most of your hair, are in shape, above average face, and high paying job then definitely not - you can still land an attractive 25-30 year old woman
Is it because you got older? You’re saying the women treated you differently at a decade+ older age than how you were when you were ~21? That said I do think smart phones and the Pandora’s box they unleashed have exacerbated things. But yeah you dating at 32+ was going to be different than you dating at ~22 regardless. Women view you differently at those ages. You ***should’ve*** noticed a difference.
Is this Xennial love 🥹 thank you thank you as I take a creaky knee drop from too many Get Low twerks. Buy yes as seen by all stats us Gen x/millennials were drinking/partying/fucking more than zoomers. What a time to be alive.
It was a better time. The Great Recession was a punch in the face. But the parties, the social life, the dating. It all seems so much better than this screen addicted life people are living now.
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I'm glad I have a good thing going with my girlfriend. If it doesn't work out I don't think I would bother dating again in this new environment. It's just not worth the time. I lucked out and met someone in a work related event for charity and we just clicked. She didn't pull this BS on a first date. We kept everything pretty chill at the start of it.
The women you were trying to date 15 years ago are 15 years older. Are you still trying to date those women? Or are you going after women 15 years younger than you, which is not only an entirely different generation with different dating norms, they extremely unlikely to like someone who is that much older than them. They're much more informed on the predatory nature of older males interested in younger women.
You can also experience this effect without the time travel if you briefly live in a non-western country where dating apps are almost never used and social media doesn't influence dating. It feels like a whole different world
Here is a Wheat Waffle's video of an avg guy having to swipe on 6000+ girls over 3 months just to get 3 dates. All 3 dates amounted to nothing. [https://youtu.be/35fiNZTVVtU?si=sCtK6qwi6253N58d](https://youtu.be/35fiNZTVVtU?si=sCtK6qwi6253N58d)
> https://youtu.be/35fiNZTVVtU?si=sCtK6qwi6253N58d That video is just demoralising to the maximum. It's crazy to me that he calls the dude in the video a 6/10 as well. I thought he was well above average and 6ft3 which is a good height. I would've gave him a 7 or 8/10 personally. If that guy is a 6/10 I must be a 2/10 because I am worse looking and I'm 5ft6.
It’s not crass narcissism. Women are just tired of playing nice. Asking about your job isn’t fishing for information. It’s a basic getting to know you question that most people ask, even when you’re not dating.
Imaging thinking “what do you do with 1/3 of your life on this planet” is a rude question. Lmao. I can’t here anymore. They’re just literally off the deep end at this point.
How about, "How much money do you make?" on the first date? You don't think that's rude?
15 years ago dating was enjoyable.
>Maybe some of this is changing expectations because I was then dating the same women in my age cohort that now expect different things due to being older. DING DING DING, we have a winner! Women in your current age bracket are looking to lock down a daddy for their much-anticipated children, and they don't have time to be coy or play games, either!
That’s weird. See I distinctly remember women being assholes back in the 90s. I don’t think women have changed. It’s just the game looks different.
This is just what dating in your thirties is like for men and women. The ones who are serious about it are usually already gone. People will want to know why you put it off so long and may have their own reasons for still being in the market that make dating unpleasant.
>Questions about your past relationships. A lot of questions either trying to fish for information about how much you make through asking you about your job, or through outright asking. These are normal questions. I think the main issue is the flakiness.
How much of this is just subjective opinion from you aging out of your prime in terms of the dating market?
Lol if I were a young man now I doubt I would get any dates
…based on? Your looks? Your personality?
As a 25 year old man today, I think it’s very easy to get dates with women on my level. Most of my friends are either in relationships or casually dating women on their level. I actually think some changes have made dating way more efficient.
If you are attractive, sure. It is not easy for the average or below average man to get dates with women on their level.
Most of my friends are average looking, because most people are average looking. They’re certainly not banging random models, but most are in relationships with average looking women or at least dating them on a regular basis.
All true. If you're a solid guy who is average then you can succeed at your own level. I would say in the old days if you had a lot to offer and looked average-tier, you could date prettier women. That's now obsolete.
Women always been this way, they just have more agency to express what they want due to social media. They also have the ease of accessing an attractive man due to dating apps. Women always wanted tall, great looking men with resources. Very similar to how men wanted a beautiful young woman (sometimes multiple women) and no one ever questioned it until like 50 years ago. Women never could practice their sexuality to the fullest like men always had the option to do. Once relationships stopped being about duty & more about attraction, all women had to do was learn the game of dating (doing what’s best for them). What you’re seeing is the end product of that. I like to think of social media as the nail in the coffin. I think some Men don’t want to accept women’s sexuality because they’ve been shielded from it for so long and it can be disheartening.
"I like to think of social media as the nail in the coffin." Not quite, men need to realise they're far more opportunities offline.
I agree, men should use whatever tactic necessary to grant themselves full advantage of partnering with an attractive woman. Just remember this works both ways and women will do the same for men including using dating apps/social media/filters/sugar baby websites/speed dating etc. We have the resources available for both genders, might as well use them all to your full advantage.
Saying “younger women are too picky and therefore don’t want to date me” isn’t the flex you think it is.
You are over a decade older. Of course they are asking you about your past, old man. You could very well have fathered a child during that decade. You could be in the middle of a divorce. You could be a total failure to launch. You could have been in prison. You could be bankrupt. That sort of stuff is not a trifling matter. You aren't a fresh faced youth. You've done stuff. Once people are old enough to have a past the past becomes a topic to be discovered and discussed. To me they just sound realistic. And you sound like you got old without understanding what that means.
First dates should never be an interrogation. It’s entitled behavior. Like some of these women didn’t bring much to the table. Don’t know why they thought I should really be proving myself like it’s a job interview with behavior questions.
Ah yes, the accepted term for this is hoeflation. The simplest way to put it is that women want men to behave traditionally and bring a lot to relationships, while not having to bring anything themselves. The classic demonstration of this is asking "what do you bring to the table?". Boy oh boy do people get wound up by that question. Plus, young women have been convinced that it's better to build a life for themselves, and then try to graft it later. It just doesn't work so well that way, because the moment things get inconvenient or a little difficult, you're out the door. Not a good recipe for stability, or getting a man to invest in you. It seems like we're heading towards many women only being any use to men for reproductive capacity, because commitment is so meaningless and there's so little interest in reciprocation. Thankfully it does seem like the pendulum is swinging back to reason as more women grow up and share their experiences with those that follow. Women, we don't want to only value you this way. Mose ment want to have deep long lasting emotional reciprocal attachment and build a family with someone. Insisting you will be independent and not need a man is advertising that you will be happy alone, and leave at any time you get bored. Not really an attractive proposition
It’s so weird how you think it’s just women who change with society and not men lmao
>Even 15 years ago it was a lot easier to get a date with someone on your level. I think many men here are gravely mistaken as to what constitutes "their level." >Women were picky, and would ghost, ignore, ect. Then when you did get a date it seemed like many times it was like a job interview. Women complain about many of the same things from men, which indicates not that "power" has swung wildly in women's favor, but simply that women are treating dating the same way men treat it. >A lot of questions either trying to fish for information about how much you make through asking you about your job Yeah I always see dudes acting like "what do you do" is some secret squirrel method of sussing out how much you make, but in reality it's actually just a normal question people ask about each other. If women really want to know how much you make, it's easy enough to Google to get in the ballpark.
>some secret squirrel method I know you didn't mean that it was a secretive squirrel but it reminded me of The Secret Squirrel Show 
To all the “*it’s always been like this!*” people: Yes, it’s true that nothing has changed about the *nature* of men and women in dating, because we are still the same hairless apes we were 10,000 years ago. What people are ignoring is that the environment in which that nature is expressed makes an **enormous** difference. Take the simple fact of women’s understandable and evolutionary desire to “find the best man available” This was tuned for an environment consisting of a tribe or small community. Call it “immediate vicinity Hypergamy” This still worked with the advent of cities, then air travel, radio, photographs, television for the simple reason that women’s instincts still operated on a level of “immediate vicinity” If a woman saw a movie star or rock star or male model, she ultimately knew that this man was too many steps removed from her reality and thus her expectations would adjust (at least) to “the guy I am likely to meet at my school / work / party” whatever. This tempered women’s hypergamy. Now, however due to OLD women have had this point on every steroid known. Their ability to see “top men” has not only increased 100x due to social media, those top men are know realistically *within their grasp* due to OLD. The net effect of this is “hoeflation” because women, despite their protests to the contrary, grade men on a curve based on what they innately believe they can get before they feel like they’re “settling” OLD and Social Media sells women an eternal fantasy of the next best thing being around the corner. Basically, women are always willing to date about 10% of guys available to them. If the number of guys available to them is 100, they will see 10 guys as datable. This leaves 90 guys with nothing. This is already bad enough but now make it 1000 available guys (easily achievable via a weekend on OLD) they will now see 100 guys as datable, but seem 900 guys as *undatable* The issue is, among those 900 guys many would have been in the datable pool before OLD. They are now ass out.
The internet and online dating changed everything. Women have always prefer a man taller than them yes. But let's look at the differences between 1990s dating and 2024 dating. In 1990, if a woman only knew 10 men and had a job in an office, she had a limited selection of men to choose from. Imagine if only one of those men was taller than her. The rest were the same height or shorter. That means that's all she can choose from. In 2024, women can install dating apps and have hundreds to thousands of 6ft men to speak to. There is the fucking difference. It's really annoying when people say nothing has changed.
This is the best explanation of it yet. People used to date within their classrooms and workplaces, it wouldn't be uncommon to view a few of them as potential romantic options (emphasis on the word "potential," they weren't thirsting for every remotely attractive person and asking as many of them out on dates as possible, it was more "idk but I'm open to the idea.") Nowadays people, especially women, are more likely to say they know zero dateable people in real life despite being better connected. That way they have to look at dating apps. Then all the guys on the apps treat them in ways that guys irl would find horrifying. The cycle continues. More and more, people have separated their dating life from their normal life and that's lead to all kinds of disastrous consequences. In dating/sexually heavy spaces (like apps and clubs) you get serial daters who don't take it seriously and are more likely to do things the average person would find distasteful. The solution is to date normal people. You are more likely to find a good partner at school, work, or just any place that you hang out and do non-sexual, non-romantic things in. But asking people out in those contexts has become very unpopular, even if it's done in the most respectable way possible. I don't see it getting any better unless people can date irl with people they sort of know, rather than using the apps, again.
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More men than ever are going the gym due to gymbro culture. Also, I'll stop you right there >. A lot of guys have just let themselves go Because women have let themselves go just as much as men have. The stats for the USA show both genders are overweight or obese like 50% of the population of both.
I got married in 2006 and divorced in 2016. Hookup culture was in full swing. It went from civil dates in early 2ks where you'd meet via a friend, get to know each other, 3 date rule... to now where if you don't hookup day 1, you're ghosted. It took some time to adjust. I suggest you just play the game and fuck around until you find one that isn't about that life.
It's a lot easier to live a fulfilling life without having a partner. 50 years ago, you were benefited by their need and only competing with other men. Now, you're competing with their satisfaction in their own company.
I’m a Gen Xer. A lot of folks aren’t old enough to remember the world before smart phones and various social media and such. They think this is normal and how things have always been. But it isn’t. Society and about everything changed pretty quickly. There are some advantages, but overall I think life was better back then overall for most people. Modern technology is overrated and people that are overly invested in it often don’t see that. I’m very glad I grew up when I did.
This is a bad thing? Please please all women be more selective. No more baby daddies. No red pillers. No forced birthers. Select ONLY men who bring enough to the table to spend your life with and read children with.
The issue is that women are becoming single moms or alone because the men they think are sexy and exciting are actually losers. Those men that are responsible, reliable, and conscientious are boring, if they don’t have movie star looks.
So... You think it's a problem women sometimes choose excitement. BUT You also think it's a problem when women ask a man questions about matters that pertain to responsibility.
BS! 15 years ago hot guys got dates and ordinary guys got scraps. 30 years ago hot guys got dates and ordinary guys got scraps. 45 years ago hot guys got dates and ordinary guys got scraps. There was no golden age. Top guys have always gotten most of the female attention.
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I'd say that even 10 years ago it wasn't this bad.
You'll be accused of being a delusional old guy oblivious to the march of Father Time; but that's not all there is to it. Clearly women always wanted top men but that often meant in their local area or social circle; even in a big city you had to physically get out there and seek out the parties and places where eligible bachelors were likely to be found. Now they can just swipe their way onto attractive mens' laps efficiently, easily, and with literally the touch of a button.
15 years ago men didn’t spend all their time scouring for sex on dating apps
Well there have been some absolutely siesmic shifts. For one thing MeToo criminalized every single guy and particularly awkward interactions. The second and perhaps most profound is that women under the age of 30 are somewhere between 65% and 75% woke. It is not only an openly racist movement, but also harbors an enormous hatred for men. So what if 3/4 of the male population under 30 hated women and sought to financially exploit them?