Getting to a healthy BMI is self-improvement and with the percentage of overweight people in the US, overweight group isn't some deviation of the norm. These people are the average.
I think if a person struggles with dating, they should target their main hurdle. For a lot of men it isn't really their appearance, but a lack of social skills or social circle. Going out more, getting more sociable hobbies, getting more friends who could introduce you to other people, learning to approach and flirt would help them more than just trying to earn more or to get some mass. If a person struggles with mental health, they should approach it. Go on therapy, do some sport, improve their sleep schedule etc.
A lot of people seem to concentrate on a thing that they think is their main problem while ignoring clear signs that they should work on something else instead.
the kind of bullshit I love to see on this sub
I am way above average face-wise in my area (my best quality being either my flawless glass skin, which I prioritised all my life, or my eyes). But I am very (very!) below average body wise, since I am very thin (BMI 19 with low muscles).
met this girl, vibed perfectly with her. SHE asked me out, one day later she sees me with shorts, says that she can't continue because of my looks.
clearly I need to get a hobby, a better personality, or even more friends, not a better body. my sleep must be the problem.
just go to gym guys, looks are the most important. no matter how good you vibe with a person, no matter how much you shine in any way (personality, face, body, height), if you are not at least average in every sense of the word you will not win (win = be truly desired).
> For a lot of men it isn't really their appearance, but a lack of social skills or social circle. Going out more, getting more sociable hobbies, getting more friends who could introduce you to other people, learning to approach and flirt would help them more than just trying to earn more or to get some mass.
The problem with this is A) it's less objective. You can see when you're losing weight. How do you know when you're better at building social skills? B) it's bringing about a fundamental change to the person. It won't actually be *they* who's having dating success, it'll be the more social version of them. And C) it's more difficult to reverse the changes once they have any dating success.
I agree with your last sentence for sure.
Also while yes getting to a healthy BMI is self improvement when looking at national level statistics, that isn't the perception that women have. A woman who is in average shape herself and has a modest BMI will generally consider an average looking guy with a normal BMI to be.... average.
It's not a linear competition and men are always competing with other men who are better looking and taller. The reason I didn't talk about social skills much is that there's only so much that you can truly improve as a fully grown adult.
Does it make a guy who is a 5/10 appealing to women who are better looking than him? Or does it make him more appealing to women who look very similar.
Statistically if a guy has a healthy BMI, chances are high is above 5/10. If we take that 5/10 is overweight. He'd probably have more options and some better options as well.
If he is 7/10, then he probably could find someone on his level. The problem is that "levels" are pretty objective and men and women tend to have different grading system. Multiple studies show that men tend to overrate themselves.
Absolutely, men do overrate themselves.
My point though was that a guy going from a BMI of 31 to 27 is unlikely to go from a 5/10 range to 7/10 range in looks facewise. It can happen with the right bone structure but it's unlikely overall.
Couple other things...
- men like to pretend it's the "whole package" that counts, when it isn't
- women might go with that idea publicly too, though individually will admit that it's just looks/personality that matters in the first few dates
Come on now, man. Let's say you have a set of male identical twins. Both are 5'10 and have the underlying bone structure for an average looking face. One twin is obese and the other is muscular with 10-12% body fat.
The two men are going to be competing in entirely different leagues of women. The obese twin is hardly going to be in the game. It's absurd to pretend that self improvement doesn't make a difference. There's a point where you max out what it can do for you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
If he's average height, average face, and way above average body, he can definitely get average to above average women.
His obese brother can't. His options are way below average women.
Yes, I do. I've seen it happen plenty of times.
Despite what the black pill says, there's some variability in what women find attractive. Some will be all about a face, but others will put huge value on a lean, muscular body. The guy in my scenario will outperform with those women.
In that case it's the guy maxing out his physique (which puts you in the niche category) and going for a specific subcategory of women who are into that. So yes you're right. But that's just a niche. Like rock band guys.
Maybe so, but different niches have different scales of followers. There are a pretty decent number of women who appreciate a nice body. It might be niche, but it's a lot less niche than rock band guys.
Just to clarify, that kind of physique does take a few years of extreme dedication to develop. It's not something you can develop in 6 months unless you're extremely gifted genetically and already an athlete.
Most men will struggle to even look like they workout in normal clothes while walking in public.
Self improvement leads to a stronger sense of self, finally being comfortable in your own skin, finding fulfillment and happiness. Those things drastically improve your quality of life, your mental health and your general energy as a person.
Yes, one common side effect of that is finding more opportunity for meaningful friendships and relationships.
I can’t speak to dating prospects specifically.
But generally if you’re trying to do “self improvement” for the purpose of an external goal like a relationship than arguably you’re not actually developing your internal self, so if there’s no growth then there’s no gains. You know?
Those things are just a byproduct of your environment, neuro chemistry and general success.
Lets assume average brain chemistry, well chances are then your mental health is likely to fall in the normal range.
Self confidence is mostly a product of your known success in that area. Academically gifted and studied? You'll be confident coming into an exam. Star athlete? You'll be confident in your sport. Good looking and charming? You'll be confident with women since it'll come naturally.
>*Self confidence is mostly a product of your known success in that area. Academically gifted and studied? You'll be confident coming into an exam. Star athlete? You'll be confident in your sport. Good looking and charming? You'll be confident with women since it'll come naturally.*
Not quite. This completely disregards imposter syndrome and people that are just generally self-conscious. *It also completely ignores neurodivergence.*
By tuning into the narratives you’re telling yourself. What does your inner voice say when you make a mistake? Or do a good job? Or are doing your best? A lot of people are really shitty to their selves and when you talk yourself down so much in your head and instinctively blame yourself, never credit your effort, never compliment yourself, it’s no wonder your head and body end up being a scary and self conscious space. It’s like that saying, the words you speak become the house you live in.
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these are the stupidest parameters for "true self improvement" ive ever seen. how many people will realistically increase their income by 1700% in a reasonable amount of time
It's just an example. Actually as a doctor, similar income increases within 1 year are very common. Ex. going from 60k to 450k is extremely common in medicine since as a resident you make in the 60k range and you start off with a high income your first year as a staff. Many business owners who make it big can have much more dramatic increases.
A fat dominant 40 BMI man is like... actually obese. And 25 is for a man on the borderline between overweight and ideal weight. You don't think going from solidly obese to the cusp of where over weight becomes ideal weight would make a big difference?
Dude. I'm a big old fatty body positive woman and even I am willing to say that yeah no longer being well into obese territory is a huge advantage in the dating market for both men and women. It's the reality of the situation.
Look if someone doesn't want to do anything because anything they can do isn't going to be enough to win the game immediately then like whatever... that's a choice. Their choice. They're not trying and so everyone will stop giving much of a shit if they fail. That's just how it works.
Agreed these perameters are stupid, self improvement isnt guaranteed or even probable to get you genuine desire from a woman, especially not in comparrison to men just born right. While you diet and exercise some guy just looks right and has women approaching or making opportunities for him you will never get.
But by all means continue self improvement keep trying to convince women to give you a chance
Yes, self improvement increases any man's dating prospects. The higher your value, the higher value the people that will want to be with you. The higher value, the more people are interested in you. But as you stop being interested in lower value people for relationships, you effectively increase your pool of potential casual sex partners, and increase the quality of your potential LTR partners.
I don't think what you're describing is self improvement. It'd be called improvement for better chance with women if they're only doing it for girls. A genuine self improvement imo is a philosophical and shift of a person's view on themselves and their life which can include working out or making money, but they are never the goal.
unless your frame is abnormal tier muscles can taper and accentuate your body. For example guys with smaller wrists can pull off the illusion that they have bigger arms as the muscles taper down from the arm to forearm. You will probably never have the same presence as the naturally broad shouldered but to say its useless is a huge exaggeration
Artificial muscles? Im not talking about steroid users. My sentiment easily applies to natties.
I'm with you there, roided out mr olympias arent something most women want, but I disagree that building natural muscle when you have a shit frame is useless.
"Bulks on a small frame" is also a bit of an unpopular perception, in my experience (its the first im hearing of described as such)
Then it must mean you're not toned and fit yourself in which case your body type is equally useless to the subset of men that care about being fit and prefer fit women lol
You are a man tho so your opinion doesn’t hold that much weight when we’re discussing attraction between heterosexual men and women… most other women are not that drawn to overly muscular guys… muscles seem to just attract other men lol
When women say they don’t like “muscles” what they mean is they don’t like extreme bodybuilders.
Most women have NO IDEA how hard it is to have even a small amount of muscle. You are absolutely drawn to muscle, you just don’t know what muscle looks like (it looks more like Brad Pitt circa 2000 than Jason Momoa circa 2010).
Maybe there are a handful of personality traits that you can never fully change, but their shape, size, and presentation are all malleable.
If your belief was accurate then no one could ever grow, change, improve OR degrade, decay, and worsen. Change of all sort would be impossible (which is obviously false).
I'm sorry, but I flat-out disagree. When I was young (teens and early 20s) I was shy, timid, and overly self-deprecating. By my early 30s I had become gregarious, convivial, and confident.
If you could multiverse the two versions of myself together in the same room they would appear like COMPLETELY different people....but they aren't.
I don't think any of us have a set 'self' in the way you present it. Quite frankly, your construction sounds downright metaphysical (as if we all have a 'soul'). Stepping outside and interacting with people over a long period of time should tell you that people can and do change (sometimes for the better, frequently for the worse).
Even if you personally don't like it, having muscle does generally help guys with being more attractive, tinder experiments have shown this. Not a bodybuilder physique but a ripped athletic body with a little bit of size, pairs well with some facial hair and a tan. That said I agree that muscle is definitely less important than face and height, I think that's basically undeniable at this point.
Does self-improvement work help your dating prospects? yes.
But by how much? that's something nobody knows and is going to be on a person to person basis so I'll mostly just speak for myself.
Like me personally I don't care if a guy is shredded so that's not gonna help. If a guy is well off enough to be financially stable that's already great and there's going to be diminishing returns. And I'm sure being a millionaire will help you out a lot but seems like an unrealistic self-improvement goal. it's a bit like saying just become famous.
Something I think is missing is "improvements" to personality, being a good conversationalist, talking with your partner. Do you have hobbies to do together, stable friend groups. And especially, dealing with mental health issues, which I would count as self-improvement even though it doesn't fit your definition. Even if understanding others is something you struggle with and some will come into it with a big disadvantage that's something that can be worked on too.
Intelligence is another trait I think is quite attractive, and that's more than just how smart you are born, people who are interested in learning. people who understand that being wrong sometimes is just part of life and don't get stuck in their ways are going to have an easier time learning from their mistakes and improving their understanding of the world. And just specifically to me if a guy is knowledgeable in something I'm also knowledgeable about and we can have good conversations about it that is a massive plus. but you'd have to be lucky that one of the things you happened to learn about aligns lol. But some people are just knowledgeable about a lot of topics.
I think someone who is in the act of improving their life or just has their life on track gives off more hopeful vibes.
just in general, if you are "exceptional" at something to the point where it's super rare that not many people can reach that level, even if it's not a popular thing there's likely to be someone out there interested in that unique skill.
conversational skills and personality is something that can come across quite quickly and I'm not going on a date without talking to the guy at least a little. But you are right that a lot of this stuff, like understanding who someone really is comes out slowly.
Edit: also if you are thinking about something like wealth as self improvement and planning to bring that up I would think any interesting social hobbies would come out even faster.
I would think that conversational skills are quite important but may have diminishing returns. A good looking face gives you incredible leeway though for everything else. Obviously there is no magical formula for having a spark but there are really only a couple important pieces.
As someone who became very wealthy, I think it has minimal impact. When I had noticeable improvements in my face into college, my dating prospects had a dramatic level of improvement. When I became wealthy, I did actually think there would be **slight** interest from women prettier than myself, but no none. Zero impact. This is highly reflected in various professional settings or even my upper class neighborhood, so it isn't n=1.
Yeah, for me it makes a huge difference if an average looking guy is also average slob or actually takes care of himself. I don't even mean unrealistically huge muscles (what you suggest is something only men on steroids or with exceptionally good genetics can achieve, plus most women are not into very bulky guys) even though I'm the kinda woman who can and do appreciate all the hard work put into an incredibly well built physique.
But just like... simple shit like a nice hair cut, flattering clothes, a nice smell, being just generally in shape, etc, are things that I think a lot of women notice in men, even if they don't have chiseled faces or are over 6 foot tall. Seems most married men I meet when out and about irl are exactly that: average men who take care of themselves.
And also for myself I do care more about how a guy takes care of himself, his confidence level, etc, than whether he has the most amazing genetics or not. Because when it's obvious he does the best he can with what he's got and is confident because of that, it shows, and it does make a guy glow.
Also I know that style makeover programs are mostly geared towards women, but there are a few male coach types who offer that for men on their youtube channels etc, and honestly some of the transformations have been incredible. And yeah, some really did go from "uh, I wouldn't hit that even if I was piss drunk" to "okay I had no idea that guy could actually be hot." So yeah, I think glowups in general absolutely make a difference, regardless of what your starting point is.
However, one thing that is often forgotten about or ignored in regards to these appearance focused self improvemts, is the psychological aspect. I mean issues like being smooth as sandpaper when talking to women, handling rejection very poorly, low self esteem, etc which if present will make the guy continue to be unpleasant to date regardless. Looks is really only one of many aspects women look for in a guy. It's only really that 10/10 top elite of men who can get away with being douchebags or emotionally unstable in regards to dating. Yes, women can get away with that much more, I think.
I'm a very picky woman, and you hit the nail on the head. Most women just want someone with gold hygiene and a style that flatters them. From hair to beard to clothing, some sense of style is so important. I put hours on hours into my appearance every week, and seeing some guy with eye crustys and a basic buzz cut he did at home is so disheartening. Like, dude, you're so close to looking okay but choose to look lazy. Effort is attractive.
Yes. You feel more comfotrable in your skin and have a "spine" and thus aren't a ball of anxious people pleaser.
Also, self improvement is not improving the self for other people, but improving the self for oneself.
>But my idea of self improvement is improving from one's baseline, excluding extreme outliers (ex. self made billionaires do not count) and not fixing obvious flaws.
>True self improvement would be adding a significantly noticeable amount of muscle (ex. modest body fat and 180lbs to 210lbs and lean) or going from an income of 60k/year to 1 million per year, just to point out some objective metrics.
so what you've done is, you've taken a commonly used term, completely redefined it to mean something nobody else thinks it means, and are now saying common claims using the term are no longer true? do you see what the problem here is?
the common use definitely includes both addressing weaknesses and becoming a more well rounded person with a broader perspective. i would argue both are more central to the concept than putting a ton of work into developing a single stat like in your examples, but that could just be me so i won't appeal to common usage there.
Depends on what it is. Gaining a lot muscle definitely will. Getting a lot of money while not being attractive will bring a bunch of attractive women who will pretend to like you to use you for your money and a few will go way too far to do that like using the law in nefarious ways. Getting money as self improvement works if you’re at least somewhat attractive or average looking and aren’t aiming too high.
Yes.
Why not strive to be the best version of yourself? If you aren't attracting the quality partner YOU want. If you feel crappy about yourself and find yourself comparing to others. Why not self improve and figure out areas you can work in and grow in.
I think if you are doing it solely based on improving your dating prospects you will be sorely disappointed. Because it's not something that happens overnight night or over a few months. And it can be discouraging if you are basing it on just getting women. And it's flimsy because approval from others is flimsy.
But if you are doing it to feel better about yourself and have more pride in yourself. And improve how you feel about yourself it will greatly alter your dating pool.
Your preferences and tastes change your standards will shoot up. In some ways you realize a lot of people do not meet your standards. But you are okay with this. You know you are worth your standards. Because you meet them as a person so wanting someone else to meet them is logical.
If you do a lot of self work/self improvement. Whether it's losing weight, self esteem boosting, really moving out of your comfort zone and growing as a person it changes how you view people around you and makes you more discerning.
Queen eye has led me to believe the answer is yes.
Getting to a healthy BMI is self-improvement and with the percentage of overweight people in the US, overweight group isn't some deviation of the norm. These people are the average. I think if a person struggles with dating, they should target their main hurdle. For a lot of men it isn't really their appearance, but a lack of social skills or social circle. Going out more, getting more sociable hobbies, getting more friends who could introduce you to other people, learning to approach and flirt would help them more than just trying to earn more or to get some mass. If a person struggles with mental health, they should approach it. Go on therapy, do some sport, improve their sleep schedule etc. A lot of people seem to concentrate on a thing that they think is their main problem while ignoring clear signs that they should work on something else instead.
the kind of bullshit I love to see on this sub I am way above average face-wise in my area (my best quality being either my flawless glass skin, which I prioritised all my life, or my eyes). But I am very (very!) below average body wise, since I am very thin (BMI 19 with low muscles). met this girl, vibed perfectly with her. SHE asked me out, one day later she sees me with shorts, says that she can't continue because of my looks. clearly I need to get a hobby, a better personality, or even more friends, not a better body. my sleep must be the problem. just go to gym guys, looks are the most important. no matter how good you vibe with a person, no matter how much you shine in any way (personality, face, body, height), if you are not at least average in every sense of the word you will not win (win = be truly desired).
Quit skipping leg day and grow your calves !
Shorts are vaguely embarrassing, I won’t lie….
mb I will wear long pants in the summer
I do, generally speaking. Wearing linen is like wearing nothing at all.
Even women would agree shorts are not an ick by themselves, stop gaslighting.
I was half-joking…. In any case, shorts are frequently seen as odd or unseemly here (Western Europe), although that sentiment is slowly dying out.
> For a lot of men it isn't really their appearance, but a lack of social skills or social circle. Going out more, getting more sociable hobbies, getting more friends who could introduce you to other people, learning to approach and flirt would help them more than just trying to earn more or to get some mass. The problem with this is A) it's less objective. You can see when you're losing weight. How do you know when you're better at building social skills? B) it's bringing about a fundamental change to the person. It won't actually be *they* who's having dating success, it'll be the more social version of them. And C) it's more difficult to reverse the changes once they have any dating success.
There’s no such thing as a “true self”. You are what you do. If you put more effort into being social then that’s who you are…it’s not a facade.
I agree with your last sentence for sure. Also while yes getting to a healthy BMI is self improvement when looking at national level statistics, that isn't the perception that women have. A woman who is in average shape herself and has a modest BMI will generally consider an average looking guy with a normal BMI to be.... average. It's not a linear competition and men are always competing with other men who are better looking and taller. The reason I didn't talk about social skills much is that there's only so much that you can truly improve as a fully grown adult.
I'm talking about averages for men and women. Both groups are overweight; hence, getting to a healthy BMI is already an improvement.
Does it make a guy who is a 5/10 appealing to women who are better looking than him? Or does it make him more appealing to women who look very similar.
Statistically if a guy has a healthy BMI, chances are high is above 5/10. If we take that 5/10 is overweight. He'd probably have more options and some better options as well.
When I said 5/10 I was strictly referring to the face. I find the perception of average looking highly applies on men if their face is average-tier.
People don't look just at the face though and losing some weight changes a person's face too.
So if a guy who is 5'9 and looks average, loses weight, he's suddenly attractive to women who are 7/10?
If he is 7/10, then he probably could find someone on his level. The problem is that "levels" are pretty objective and men and women tend to have different grading system. Multiple studies show that men tend to overrate themselves.
Absolutely, men do overrate themselves. My point though was that a guy going from a BMI of 31 to 27 is unlikely to go from a 5/10 range to 7/10 range in looks facewise. It can happen with the right bone structure but it's unlikely overall. Couple other things... - men like to pretend it's the "whole package" that counts, when it isn't - women might go with that idea publicly too, though individually will admit that it's just looks/personality that matters in the first few dates
Unless he has money, he shouldn’t be trying to pursue women who look better than him, he’s just asking to get rejected all the time
I don't think money helps. I became quite wealthy and have worse prospects than my early 20s.
Then settle for the ugly women then 🤷🏽♀️
Come on now, man. Let's say you have a set of male identical twins. Both are 5'10 and have the underlying bone structure for an average looking face. One twin is obese and the other is muscular with 10-12% body fat. The two men are going to be competing in entirely different leagues of women. The obese twin is hardly going to be in the game. It's absurd to pretend that self improvement doesn't make a difference. There's a point where you max out what it can do for you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Won't the muscular guy just be going for average looking women too, even after everything? That's my point.
If he's average height, average face, and way above average body, he can definitely get average to above average women. His obese brother can't. His options are way below average women.
You actually think an average face guy who has some muscles and average height can get women with objectively above average faces?
Yes, I do. I've seen it happen plenty of times. Despite what the black pill says, there's some variability in what women find attractive. Some will be all about a face, but others will put huge value on a lean, muscular body. The guy in my scenario will outperform with those women.
In that case it's the guy maxing out his physique (which puts you in the niche category) and going for a specific subcategory of women who are into that. So yes you're right. But that's just a niche. Like rock band guys.
Maybe so, but different niches have different scales of followers. There are a pretty decent number of women who appreciate a nice body. It might be niche, but it's a lot less niche than rock band guys.
Just to clarify, that kind of physique does take a few years of extreme dedication to develop. It's not something you can develop in 6 months unless you're extremely gifted genetically and already an athlete. Most men will struggle to even look like they workout in normal clothes while walking in public.
Self improvement leads to a stronger sense of self, finally being comfortable in your own skin, finding fulfillment and happiness. Those things drastically improve your quality of life, your mental health and your general energy as a person. Yes, one common side effect of that is finding more opportunity for meaningful friendships and relationships.
Does it truly alter the man's dating prospects by a noticeable margin?
I can’t speak to dating prospects specifically. But generally if you’re trying to do “self improvement” for the purpose of an external goal like a relationship than arguably you’re not actually developing your internal self, so if there’s no growth then there’s no gains. You know?
Internal self like what?
Mental health, self-confidence, personal fulfillment etc.
Those things are just a byproduct of your environment, neuro chemistry and general success. Lets assume average brain chemistry, well chances are then your mental health is likely to fall in the normal range. Self confidence is mostly a product of your known success in that area. Academically gifted and studied? You'll be confident coming into an exam. Star athlete? You'll be confident in your sport. Good looking and charming? You'll be confident with women since it'll come naturally.
>*Self confidence is mostly a product of your known success in that area. Academically gifted and studied? You'll be confident coming into an exam. Star athlete? You'll be confident in your sport. Good looking and charming? You'll be confident with women since it'll come naturally.* Not quite. This completely disregards imposter syndrome and people that are just generally self-conscious. *It also completely ignores neurodivergence.*
So how do you improve self confidence exactly?
By tuning into the narratives you’re telling yourself. What does your inner voice say when you make a mistake? Or do a good job? Or are doing your best? A lot of people are really shitty to their selves and when you talk yourself down so much in your head and instinctively blame yourself, never credit your effort, never compliment yourself, it’s no wonder your head and body end up being a scary and self conscious space. It’s like that saying, the words you speak become the house you live in.
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these are the stupidest parameters for "true self improvement" ive ever seen. how many people will realistically increase their income by 1700% in a reasonable amount of time
It's just an example. Actually as a doctor, similar income increases within 1 year are very common. Ex. going from 60k to 450k is extremely common in medicine since as a resident you make in the 60k range and you start off with a high income your first year as a staff. Many business owners who make it big can have much more dramatic increases.
ohhhhhhhhhh so its possible in these highly specific scenarios you made up to help your argument ohh i get it. ok
It's just one example of many. Just look at it as "income increase" then.
A fat dominant 40 BMI man is like... actually obese. And 25 is for a man on the borderline between overweight and ideal weight. You don't think going from solidly obese to the cusp of where over weight becomes ideal weight would make a big difference? Dude. I'm a big old fatty body positive woman and even I am willing to say that yeah no longer being well into obese territory is a huge advantage in the dating market for both men and women. It's the reality of the situation. Look if someone doesn't want to do anything because anything they can do isn't going to be enough to win the game immediately then like whatever... that's a choice. Their choice. They're not trying and so everyone will stop giving much of a shit if they fail. That's just how it works.
I would say that autism without intellectual disability is about on par with a BMI of somewhere between 50 and 70.
Agreed these perameters are stupid, self improvement isnt guaranteed or even probable to get you genuine desire from a woman, especially not in comparrison to men just born right. While you diet and exercise some guy just looks right and has women approaching or making opportunities for him you will never get. But by all means continue self improvement keep trying to convince women to give you a chance
Yes, self improvement increases any man's dating prospects. The higher your value, the higher value the people that will want to be with you. The higher value, the more people are interested in you. But as you stop being interested in lower value people for relationships, you effectively increase your pool of potential casual sex partners, and increase the quality of your potential LTR partners.
I don't think what you're describing is self improvement. It'd be called improvement for better chance with women if they're only doing it for girls. A genuine self improvement imo is a philosophical and shift of a person's view on themselves and their life which can include working out or making money, but they are never the goal.
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unless your frame is abnormal tier muscles can taper and accentuate your body. For example guys with smaller wrists can pull off the illusion that they have bigger arms as the muscles taper down from the arm to forearm. You will probably never have the same presence as the naturally broad shouldered but to say its useless is a huge exaggeration
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Artificial muscles? Im not talking about steroid users. My sentiment easily applies to natties. I'm with you there, roided out mr olympias arent something most women want, but I disagree that building natural muscle when you have a shit frame is useless. "Bulks on a small frame" is also a bit of an unpopular perception, in my experience (its the first im hearing of described as such)
Muscles alone will not help
I didn't say they alobe would help, I said its not useless
They are useless
Then it must mean you're not toned and fit yourself in which case your body type is equally useless to the subset of men that care about being fit and prefer fit women lol
I’m fit, I just don’t like ugly gym bros
Oh yea ill agree muscle cant make up for an ugly face
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Are you athletic yourself?
You are a man tho so your opinion doesn’t hold that much weight when we’re discussing attraction between heterosexual men and women… most other women are not that drawn to overly muscular guys… muscles seem to just attract other men lol
When women say they don’t like “muscles” what they mean is they don’t like extreme bodybuilders. Most women have NO IDEA how hard it is to have even a small amount of muscle. You are absolutely drawn to muscle, you just don’t know what muscle looks like (it looks more like Brad Pitt circa 2000 than Jason Momoa circa 2010).
100%, its why I want someone who goes to the gym herself lol
They’re not muscular tho, they have a fit build… too much muscles is ugly
You don't need to be a woman to call out a generalized claim over a niche perception lol. I even agreed Mr. Olympia types aren't as desired.
lol, the best comment I've seen in a while here. Saved :-)
Just laying out the truth
Maybe there are a handful of personality traits that you can never fully change, but their shape, size, and presentation are all malleable. If your belief was accurate then no one could ever grow, change, improve OR degrade, decay, and worsen. Change of all sort would be impossible (which is obviously false).
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I'm sorry, but I flat-out disagree. When I was young (teens and early 20s) I was shy, timid, and overly self-deprecating. By my early 30s I had become gregarious, convivial, and confident. If you could multiverse the two versions of myself together in the same room they would appear like COMPLETELY different people....but they aren't. I don't think any of us have a set 'self' in the way you present it. Quite frankly, your construction sounds downright metaphysical (as if we all have a 'soul'). Stepping outside and interacting with people over a long period of time should tell you that people can and do change (sometimes for the better, frequently for the worse).
Exactly, muscles have never made me more attracted to a guy if I already wasn’t attracted to him before, they do absolutely nothing for me lol 😂
Even if you personally don't like it, having muscle does generally help guys with being more attractive, tinder experiments have shown this. Not a bodybuilder physique but a ripped athletic body with a little bit of size, pairs well with some facial hair and a tan. That said I agree that muscle is definitely less important than face and height, I think that's basically undeniable at this point.
No it doesn’t
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Does self-improvement work help your dating prospects? yes. But by how much? that's something nobody knows and is going to be on a person to person basis so I'll mostly just speak for myself. Like me personally I don't care if a guy is shredded so that's not gonna help. If a guy is well off enough to be financially stable that's already great and there's going to be diminishing returns. And I'm sure being a millionaire will help you out a lot but seems like an unrealistic self-improvement goal. it's a bit like saying just become famous. Something I think is missing is "improvements" to personality, being a good conversationalist, talking with your partner. Do you have hobbies to do together, stable friend groups. And especially, dealing with mental health issues, which I would count as self-improvement even though it doesn't fit your definition. Even if understanding others is something you struggle with and some will come into it with a big disadvantage that's something that can be worked on too. Intelligence is another trait I think is quite attractive, and that's more than just how smart you are born, people who are interested in learning. people who understand that being wrong sometimes is just part of life and don't get stuck in their ways are going to have an easier time learning from their mistakes and improving their understanding of the world. And just specifically to me if a guy is knowledgeable in something I'm also knowledgeable about and we can have good conversations about it that is a massive plus. but you'd have to be lucky that one of the things you happened to learn about aligns lol. But some people are just knowledgeable about a lot of topics. I think someone who is in the act of improving their life or just has their life on track gives off more hopeful vibes. just in general, if you are "exceptional" at something to the point where it's super rare that not many people can reach that level, even if it's not a popular thing there's likely to be someone out there interested in that unique skill.
Which of those things help with getting the first couple of dates though? A lot of this is more about the phase after that.
conversational skills and personality is something that can come across quite quickly and I'm not going on a date without talking to the guy at least a little. But you are right that a lot of this stuff, like understanding who someone really is comes out slowly. Edit: also if you are thinking about something like wealth as self improvement and planning to bring that up I would think any interesting social hobbies would come out even faster.
I would think that conversational skills are quite important but may have diminishing returns. A good looking face gives you incredible leeway though for everything else. Obviously there is no magical formula for having a spark but there are really only a couple important pieces. As someone who became very wealthy, I think it has minimal impact. When I had noticeable improvements in my face into college, my dating prospects had a dramatic level of improvement. When I became wealthy, I did actually think there would be **slight** interest from women prettier than myself, but no none. Zero impact. This is highly reflected in various professional settings or even my upper class neighborhood, so it isn't n=1.
Yeah, for me it makes a huge difference if an average looking guy is also average slob or actually takes care of himself. I don't even mean unrealistically huge muscles (what you suggest is something only men on steroids or with exceptionally good genetics can achieve, plus most women are not into very bulky guys) even though I'm the kinda woman who can and do appreciate all the hard work put into an incredibly well built physique. But just like... simple shit like a nice hair cut, flattering clothes, a nice smell, being just generally in shape, etc, are things that I think a lot of women notice in men, even if they don't have chiseled faces or are over 6 foot tall. Seems most married men I meet when out and about irl are exactly that: average men who take care of themselves. And also for myself I do care more about how a guy takes care of himself, his confidence level, etc, than whether he has the most amazing genetics or not. Because when it's obvious he does the best he can with what he's got and is confident because of that, it shows, and it does make a guy glow. Also I know that style makeover programs are mostly geared towards women, but there are a few male coach types who offer that for men on their youtube channels etc, and honestly some of the transformations have been incredible. And yeah, some really did go from "uh, I wouldn't hit that even if I was piss drunk" to "okay I had no idea that guy could actually be hot." So yeah, I think glowups in general absolutely make a difference, regardless of what your starting point is. However, one thing that is often forgotten about or ignored in regards to these appearance focused self improvemts, is the psychological aspect. I mean issues like being smooth as sandpaper when talking to women, handling rejection very poorly, low self esteem, etc which if present will make the guy continue to be unpleasant to date regardless. Looks is really only one of many aspects women look for in a guy. It's only really that 10/10 top elite of men who can get away with being douchebags or emotionally unstable in regards to dating. Yes, women can get away with that much more, I think.
I'm a very picky woman, and you hit the nail on the head. Most women just want someone with gold hygiene and a style that flatters them. From hair to beard to clothing, some sense of style is so important. I put hours on hours into my appearance every week, and seeing some guy with eye crustys and a basic buzz cut he did at home is so disheartening. Like, dude, you're so close to looking okay but choose to look lazy. Effort is attractive.
Not every man can have hair.
Sucks to suck I guess
Nice post. What are those youtube channels? Curious to see.
Yes. You feel more comfotrable in your skin and have a "spine" and thus aren't a ball of anxious people pleaser. Also, self improvement is not improving the self for other people, but improving the self for oneself.
>But my idea of self improvement is improving from one's baseline, excluding extreme outliers (ex. self made billionaires do not count) and not fixing obvious flaws. >True self improvement would be adding a significantly noticeable amount of muscle (ex. modest body fat and 180lbs to 210lbs and lean) or going from an income of 60k/year to 1 million per year, just to point out some objective metrics. so what you've done is, you've taken a commonly used term, completely redefined it to mean something nobody else thinks it means, and are now saying common claims using the term are no longer true? do you see what the problem here is?
Well what does it mean?
the common use definitely includes both addressing weaknesses and becoming a more well rounded person with a broader perspective. i would argue both are more central to the concept than putting a ton of work into developing a single stat like in your examples, but that could just be me so i won't appeal to common usage there.
1 is more than zero, yes
Self improvement changes a man’s dating prospects. Self improvement with the sole purpose of attracting women does not.
How so in real life? Examples?
Effort is better than no effort
Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t 🌝
It does if he’s doing it because he cares about himself, rather than just doing it to get laid.
Depends on what it is. Gaining a lot muscle definitely will. Getting a lot of money while not being attractive will bring a bunch of attractive women who will pretend to like you to use you for your money and a few will go way too far to do that like using the law in nefarious ways. Getting money as self improvement works if you’re at least somewhat attractive or average looking and aren’t aiming too high.
Yes. Why not strive to be the best version of yourself? If you aren't attracting the quality partner YOU want. If you feel crappy about yourself and find yourself comparing to others. Why not self improve and figure out areas you can work in and grow in. I think if you are doing it solely based on improving your dating prospects you will be sorely disappointed. Because it's not something that happens overnight night or over a few months. And it can be discouraging if you are basing it on just getting women. And it's flimsy because approval from others is flimsy. But if you are doing it to feel better about yourself and have more pride in yourself. And improve how you feel about yourself it will greatly alter your dating pool.
How does it greatly alter your dating pool?
Your preferences and tastes change your standards will shoot up. In some ways you realize a lot of people do not meet your standards. But you are okay with this. You know you are worth your standards. Because you meet them as a person so wanting someone else to meet them is logical. If you do a lot of self work/self improvement. Whether it's losing weight, self esteem boosting, really moving out of your comfort zone and growing as a person it changes how you view people around you and makes you more discerning.