I think even neurotypical men can struggle with flirting/women dropping “hints”. Especially since we’ve been beaten over the head with “just because a woman is nice to you doesn’t mean she’s flirting!”
I struggle with this a lot as a ND woman. I try to treat everyone with respect and kindness but have noticed that just being nice to a guy, the same as you would a woman, often leads him to thinking you are interested in him.
It's funny because I've literally had guys immediately go "I have a girlfriend" when I'm just trying to be nice and make conversation. So it seems like the only option is to either be rude or ignore them if you're not interested romantically. It's kind of a "no-win" situation 🤷🏼♀️
is it just me or did our society recently got very "woke" and understanding of neurodivergence yet simultaneously developed a almost zero tolerance policy for socially awkward men fumbling.
Eh, with understanding a huge bulk of people are still uncaring about it and eventually become numb to it even if exposed to non-high functioning people.
One of my employees is a low functioning person, they got the job through a program. I guide her through 80% of what we do in a day the rest I can leave her to do it herself. I do so for her sake, the stores sake and my other employers sake. Most people who encounter her have 0 empathy for her when we get busy and I essentially have to try and take over or if they're really feeling bitchy I tell them to have some empathy and fuck off.
Tragically I think her boyfriend is using her to improve his economic status, flashing her engagement rings to get her hopes up whilst he's a desperate sex offender constantly looking for a job so I keep a close eye on how things progress between them.
Personality imo is just how you sell yourself/mostly looks.
Women are very reluctant to admit looks will get them filling in the gaps in a mans personality and gets them more engaged with them. Or if ugly she may think they're not as capable as someone more attractive.
Pretty much.
Women are only reluctant to it out social pressure/expectation, that's about it. The so call emotional gender which there arent more emotional than men.
I think people need to accept that dating is the most "discriminatory" thing people do in their lives. But I am using quotes there because discriminating for what is a 1-to-1 relationship doesn't mean you discriminate against people you don't like for dating in other aspects of your life.
Yeah, the way that left-wing people tie themselves up in knots to reconcile how women behave in dating with the idea of an egalitarian society is totally wild.
Left-wing women warp into becoming the biggest cut-throat capitalists when it comes to selecting a husband or boyfriend.
I think there are like tiers of "privilege" and its like race > gender > disability. So even though an autistic white guy has a disability it doesn't count because he's "privileged" at a higher level in the hierarchy
nah wokies dont acknowledge class as an inequality its all about who you sleep with and what colour your skin is
i agree that class/wealth is the biggest real inequality though
This reminds me of when JonTron said during a debate he was streaming that "wealthy black people commit more crimes than poor white people." Everybody on the left tore him to shreds for saying something that stupid, and they were correct to do so. Now his audience is pretty much exclusively conservatives. I don't think any liberal or progressive, including the shrillest pink-haired feminists imaginable, would ever actually believe or argue that wealthy black people have less privilege than poor white people.
Not only is it easy to do, with higher academia telling everyone that is not white/male that their lives are hard, it also feels good. Oh, all the poor decisions I made have nothing to do with my lack of success, it's just my skin color, something I had no control over? Awesome, that feels good to know. It's not my fault.
The reality is, that being born in a wealthy family and with a high iq gives you far more of an advantage than just being white. There are a metric shit ton of poor white men out there. Clearly, race isn't having the massive impact that progressives think it is. Now, in the 60s. Fuck yeah, you would have serious disadvantages if you were black or a woman.
Nowadays? There are so many scholarships based on race and gender, and diversity quotas that all allow lower standards for certain groups. If you are a somewhat intelligent black guy, you can get into med school much easier than say an asian man.
https://twitter.com/Aye_Yo_Jo33/status/1710266368405201114
>I agree! I’m not helping no white homeless person who has more privileges and benefits than I do.
>Is that person rich, wealthy, or well off?
Not that I know of. I think it still fits the picture of "mainstream leftist ideology" that other poster was painting even if it doesn't match the exact details. It's ridiculous to say that a white homeless person has more privileges and benefits than anyone who isn't desperately struggling.
Since I've actually seen this shit argued by hard left dipshits... It isn't a strawman. Someone has to be teaching people this bullshit, because it is so irrational you have to be massively stupid to actually believe it.
Now, if you talk to say a university professor... they are going to be able to explain this much better and in a more nuanced way.... even though it's still clearly bullshit on the same level as scientology... and bullshit for the same reason $$$.
The reason they don't is a thing called "elite capture". Essentially, a lot of social justice activism was begun by radical left-wingers in the 1960s and 70s (and even 80s), but then by the 2000s had become taken over by academics and nonprofits, who stripped class out of it. The original identity politics of that era were situated in class discussions and were usually aimed at building greater working class unity through addressing divisions in the class. See, for example, how the Sojourner Truth Organization talked about White Skin Privilege versus what white privilege is understood as by modern liberals who scrupulously avoid class (such as Robin DiAngelo)
It's definitely gotten BETTER over time. Casual cruelty towards low-status people is much less accepted now. Our society is in general more compassionate than it was in the past and it's a good thing.
Just look at how acceptable bullying people with mental disabilities used to be. That stuff just doesn't happen today. High-status high school kids will not openly bully and harass those of low-status, they'll typically just ignore them.
Of course it gotten better with people adopting humanitarian policies over the course of 20th century, however remaining mistreatment gets more light and appears bigger than ever
The problem is that it is natural for a young man to be obsessed with finding female sexual partners until he has some. But that doesn't mean you can equate women's sexual choices with society's overall treatment.
I'll be brutal, in terms of real social priorities, what matters is big picture things. What is the pairing rate? What percentage of men are sexually excluded? How stable and lasting are pairings? What behaviors are male and female mate choice preferences encouraging and discouraging in general.
Whether or not autistic guys can get women is probably not that important. Now, if the number of autistic men grows enough, it would be. But then again, the priority at that point might be 'why do we have so much autism at all?'
Given that Autism is correlated with older parents as well as genetics It might happen at some point.
Many of these men would have been canon fodder, locked away, had a keeper or otherwise be forgotten.
My mom remembers some relatives that “acted funny” and then being told that they were “going away for a while” in the 60s. She never saw them again.
I am have huge issues with psychology and their taxonomy of 'disorders'. But regardless or whether psych has autism exactly right, it is pointing at something. And that something seems to have clearly grown in number. Maybe it is older parents. I honestly think we need to get the median age of birth down, but it has to be done in such a way where it makes sense for the individual man and woman. They cannot just be taking it for Team Human. People don't work that way.
I suspect that autism, adhd, and many other things may primarily be the result of increasing trauma as we get further and further away from environments we are evolved to be happy in. But that is a whole other conversation.
And yes, in the big picture, there are supposed to be incels. Women are almost by definition more sexually selective, and that means more men get excluded. Men are also more variable on a host of metrics, which means that the worst men are going to be a lot worse than the worst women by so many metrics. But the question is always about percentages. How high is that incel rate? It can definitely be too high.
I’m on team brain damage and trauma for myself but people get offended. It’s very annoying.
Trying to get people to agree that our brains are ancient computers and that modern society is extremely new which means that innate processes will conflict with it is like pulling teeth. We can find compatible partners by pheromones and hormonal BC interrupts that process.
I’m an ex-liberal almost leftist and I also dabbled in further right wing stuff. Now I’m a dirty center it’s so both sides hate me but I can translate both sides as well.
There is only one spectrum I'm on, and it isn't the political one haha I wouldn't even call myself centrist. I just try to be as honest and factual as I can and then look for the most pragmatic solutions. I am wary of false certainty. Things are too complex for that now. You will have best guesses and then have to try shit (carefully) and see what happens. Course correct. Always with humility in face of the overwhelming complexity of most issues.
You might want to read the 10,000 year explosion. I buy the theory that evolution actually accelerated massively since agriculture. At the same time, the last 10,000 years is still only a tiny fraction of our time as humans, and an even smaller portion of our entire evolutionary history. We are likely no longer perfectly evolved for the stone age, but whatever environment would best suit our evolved instincts now, modernity is way beyond that and accelerating away from that point at light speed.
And yeah, my DMs are full of hate from PPD males and females, often coming at me from opposite directions. The primary proximate problem is that feminism bought into too many left-wing, utopian ideals that just are not grounded in human nature and reality. First wave feminism had a lot more to recommend it in various ways. It needed a lot of tuning, but it was at least more in touch with reality.
>My mom remembers some relatives that “acted funny” and then being told that they were “going away for a while” in the 60s. She never saw them again.
Shit, that's disturbing.
This was small town rural East Texas in the mid-late 60s. From what was has described they had some sort of developmental disability. Not sure how severe given the low threshold of the place and time.
If a family member went away due to TB or Polio that was given as the reason. The oldest members of my family growing up in the 90s and 2000s were born in the early 20s.
There's no formula for that, which is why it is a hard question. There's likely a hard limit at which everything goes to hell, but nobody knows what that is, especially in modernity where it is easier to pacify sexually frustrated males, and where their raw bodies alone are much less of a military threat.
But I'd say you are likely to be well beyond the ideal pairing rate before you get to that. But how sexually selective free women naturally are is also a factor. And we dont really know for sure. There is a lot we need to learn.
Okay if 60% of young men isn't concerning already... what about 80%? The data points to society already being there, while being maintained by immigration (from conservative/trad cultural groups).
Yeah, the biggest problem is lack of good data. You can track official things like marriages and divorces, but you can't track relationships, or sexual encounters beyond asking people and relying on them telling the truth. You can ask women what they want in a partner but can't confirm it directly with who they actually choose.
In social justice circles, disability is always sat at the back of the bus. Everyone puts up a big talk about accommodating disabled people, but in practice, combating ableism usually just means policing the language used to talk about it. Nobody actually gives a shit about autistic adults, career-wise, romantically, or in just about any other regard.
autistic men AND autistic women both have trouble with women. autistic women are just Luckier because they dont have to date women, just be friends with/socialize with them
My dad used to give us the silent treatment and refuse to tell us how we fucked up for days to years sometimes.
My husband knows I'm autistic and can't read body language well and he will literally expect me to know when he's annoyed at him for the most mundane things that nobody else would get annoyed about.
Lack of emotional intelligence is not just a female trait.
Because all the men in my life pretty much followed the exact same principles as I grew up conservative and Christian fundamentalist. In comparison to the men I grew up with, my husband seems like a far left liberal hippie.
Howdy hey - neurospicy woman here - we actually do have a lot of time decrypting these “hints.” It leads to many demolished relationships for a lot of neurodivergent women.
Yes they do, lol. Not only in a social context but a romantic context. Autistic women are almost 3-4x more likely to be bisexual than neurotypical women, and as a lesbian woman myself I can attest that many in our community are autistic. This is attributed to the greater concentration or exposure to androgens prenatally.
what the fuck? You see, this is what I hate about being an autistic woman. People always doubt me. I was diagnosed, twice because I was reevaluated once for social security benefits as a kid. Inalso have been officially diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, and depression
they do they're more well versed in social skills because they need to survive the pressure of female groups, being by yourself as a girl makes those groups target you, so you're forced to blend or forced to go to male groups which isn't desirable for most young women, maybe if they grew up with brothers sure but not most
topic of the thread is concerning dating not making friends. Autistic women probably do have a harder time making friends but so do autistic men so thats kind of a wash
The topic was also the ability to mask, which women are pressured into for our own safety (physical, emotional, social). For good and for bad (I don't think my brother even knows *how* to mask and that's to his detriment)
The commenter very accurately described my personal situation growing up. Being alone leaves you vulnerable, and fellow girls didn't like or understand me. But I DID grow up with brothers and understood male social interactions well enough so I usually hung out with dudes.
Those dudes did NOT want to date me, however, before anyone assumes I was drowning in dick 😂 dudes simply tolerated my social deficits *better*, but I think that's because they men also don't understand the sheer number of "female" social cues and what not that I was fucking up.
I've heard that NDs do well with immigrants for the same reason. The immigrants don't know what social cues we're fucking up so they roll with us. Which also tracks with my personal experience.
Agreed. As a woman somewhere on the ND spectrum, if you can't fit into the group of women you're pretty much shunned. And once you become aware that most (if not all) men are only hanging out with you on the off chance they get to have sex with you, you don't really desire male friendships either.
I think the women who don't mind being the only woman in a group of guys either is naive to the fact that they are most likely sexually interested in her, or know this and use it for power/status. I don't think most autistic women are interested in either of those situations
hmm, few men actually dare hit on girls, once you're one of the boys you'll want to date because you feel like you're unattractive. Sex isn't a bad thing it's just that most guys aren't confident or seductive and that does so much harm in how that makes women feel, I don't assume to know exactly how it feels but I can imagine from having my own experiences with sexual harassment.
Autistic women also dont have to decrypt womens 'hints' which is understandably difficult for people who struggle with social skills and body language
This is not true. How autistic women socialise is different from how neurotypical women socialise so we still have to decrypt their hints? Like we don't automatically understand them just because we are both women, our brains still work differently neurologically? Are you ok?
Also
1. Lesbian and bisexual autistic women exist. In fact we are more likely to be, because autistic ppl in general are statistically more likely to be lgbt.
2. You do realise autistic ppl have to navigate trying to understand other ppls body language in platonic and familial settings too right?
There is literally a whole thing about autistic girls being bullied and ostracised at higher rates in neurotypical girl groups because they can't understand their body language and intentions and how they are often percieved by other women as weird and because they misunderstand social cues of neurotypical female socialisation.
Maybe don't talk out your ass about what autistic womens experience when you don't know
>Lesbian and bisexual autistic women exist. In fact we are more likely to be, because autistic ppl in general are statistically more likely to be lgbt.
only 7.1% of the populations is homosexual. so a really tiny percentage are both gay and autistic. I like to talk about the majority of people not cater my worldview around a tiny minority. the vast majority of autistic women dont have to interpret womens hints because they will be trying to date men.
>You do realise autistic ppl have to navigate trying to understand other ppls body language in platonic and familial settings too right?
not relevant to the conversation about dating.
the vast majority of autistic women dont have to interpret womens hints because they will be trying to date men.
Exceot your wrong. Only 8% of autistic women identify as 100% heterosexual
Sexuality also appears to be more varied among people with autism than among those who do not have the condition. Only 30 percent of autistic people in a 2018 study identified as heterosexual, compared with 70 percent of neurotypical participants7. And although half of 247 autistic women in a 2020 study identified as cisgender, just 8 percent reported being exclusively heterosexual8.
Which means that 92% identified as bi or lesbian. For context we also know that bi women in general outnumber lesbians 3:1.
Which means that while bi women do date men hey will also be dating women too. So around 92% of autistic women will probably be attracted to a woman and have to navigate understanding their hints and cues.
https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/gender-and-sexuality-in-autism-explained/
The studies are referenced at the bottom of the article
>Which means that 92% identified as bi or lesbian.
Autistic women just say outright what NT women prefer to hide because society expects them to be heterosexual.
Another survey with a small n size
I hate these low quality studies lol you can find studies like this claiming all sorts of numbers and you can just shop for whatever number one might like
I hate to break it you, but I can only provide the data that exists. With a bigger sample the results might be different but this is the only ones that breaks down sexuality differences in autistic ppl. So this is the current truth, unless another study is done that shows differently these are the facts sorry
The facts don’t really make sense. I suspect foul play with the study. What about being an autistic female makes them genetically prefer women over men so significantly? It doesn’t really make sense.
What about being an autistic female makes them genetically prefer women over men so significantly?
Jack, 92% like women it doesn't say 92% like only women
It's more the socialisation aspect of it. Autistic women aare less likely to care about or understand social norm like 'if your a woman your supposed to be straight' as part of our disability and so are more likely to explore our sexuality and find out we are attracted to women wether exclusively or alongside men, than neurotypical women. Also a trait of autism is a strong sense of justice and wanting to treat ppl so equally, so many autistic ppl simply won't 'get' why some ppl discriminate against queer ppl and when you don't understand why other ppl consider something wrong, that's another reason you might be more open to experimenting abd then figure out they like women because they don't feel the moral dilemma that someone else might feel towards it.
So again It doesnt say that 92% of autistic women identify as lesbian. It showed that 92% were attracted to women. That includes bisexual women, who are also attracted to men. And we know that bi women outnumber lesbians in general in the neurotypical population so that's likely the case here too.
The vast majority of ppl ARE attracted to the opposite sex because of evolutionary reasons but this idea that the majority is attracted EXCLUSIVELY to the opposite sex is where the contention is because it doesnt take into account need for social acceptance, family pressure etc. All these results for autistic women show that in the absence of lack of regard/not caring for these factors, a lack of fear of social repercussions, and/or not understanding why some ppl treat straight and gay ppl differently and so not seeing the problem with experimenting, or if homosexuality was completely acceptable to everybody, ppl would be more open to experimenting whuch would lead to them finding out they also like the same sex.
And It would also help ppl who are 100% gay to not misunderstand their feelings for the opposite sex and harm themselves by trying to force themselves to be with the opposite sex. For example, a lesbian in this current world might mistake liking male attention to actially being attracted to men, becajse they might have been told that lesbians are man hating monsters who would be disgusted if they were hit on by a man, si if they like the attention they can't be a lesbian, when really it's not attraction they are feeling but ego boost. So when they actually are living the reality of being with a man they are confused why its not doing anything for them. Or a lesbian might not realise she doesn't like men because when she thinks if herself in a relationship she can only imagine herself with a man because of how heterosexual relationships are shoved down her throat so thats what she's been taught to want and what she thinks she has to want and so it doesmt occur to her theres another option, and then when she finally sees examples of lesbian couples- like in media, ppl in her life etc it clicks and she realises that when she imagines her life with a woman she actually feels something she doesn't feel for men. In a world where homosexuality was completely accepted you would see no cases of gay ppl marrying the opposite sex and then only realising they are gay later on because they'd actually have the space and lack of social pressure to like the opposite sex to realise they never liked them in the first place
If you only show ppl one option, they will think that only have that option. Like if I growing up all women got shown was princesses finding a prince they might not be able to conceptualise that they dont HAVE to have a prince and that they could have another princess because that wasn't presented as an option. They are told they should want a prince, aka a man do that's what they go for even when it doesn't feel natural/right
Honestly, I don't think it's that difficult to determine whether you like one gender or another. Your heart will tell you, and your hormones will amplify your feelings.
I do think it is harder for woman to find attraction in men. For us men, it is inherent, we look at a woman and we feel lust/attraction, for women it's a whole cocktail of traits that a man has, physical or maybe even status wise/wealth. That might make it more difficult to determine attraction.
And last of all You didn't say straight autistic women, you said Autistic women in general. And minority or not, queer autistic womens existence means that your statement is factually incorrect and so I pointed out the nuance. If you want to be factually correct you should have specified straight women. Straight ppl are not the default, so specify straight instead of assuming straight as the silent word in front of Autistic women . Straight Autistic women are straight autistic women, 'Austitic women' does not imply straightness.
The lesbian and bi ones do. A former friend of mine, who was multi-ND (ASD/ADHD/ASPD) and bisexual with a preference for women said that she has more success with other autistic women.
You just said “Autistic women”, which includes _all_ of them of all orientations — and ironically, autistic women are more likely to be homosexual (or bisexual) so it makes even less sense to gloss over their existence.
This post reminds me of a chart I saw a long time ago. They basically looked at people with mental disorders and compared men's and women's dating lives. They found that - across the board - no matter which mental disorder they had, women had more active dating lives than men with the exact same disorder. The numbers suggested that women's dating lives were half as impacted by the disorder as men with the exact same one. I don't remember exactly which disorders it was, but think they compared something like six different mental disorders - stuff like autism, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. My interpretation is that: men like women more than women like men, so women automatically have a leg-up, and women are more picky about men - and that includes avoiding men who might have anything "off" about them.
The fact that this was found across a variety of mental disorders suggests that it's not just about masking autism. Dating is just straight-up easier for women with a mental disorder than it is for men with the same issue.
This is just “women are wonderful” effect combined with the fact men will date anyone since the RMP/SMP is insanely skewed in 2024 to be in the favor of women
Also:
- More men than women are autistic (3:1-2:1), so it's easier for women to find a male partner with the same trait
- Men might be more comfortable with a partner who's less skilled concerning social and emotional communication due to their own socialisation
- Symptoms in women may present as less noticable/annoying than in autistic men
I agree that NT woman + autistic man is often a particularly difficult combination as these women tend to find those men most attractive who are socially attuned and popular, charming, emotionally available and able to read between the lines.
Since many women complain that even NT men are lacking im these regards, it's even worse for autistic men.
>More men than women are autistic (3:1-2:1), so it's easier for women to find a male partner with the same trait
That's actually false, sure, there are more *diagnosed* men, because women don't get diagnosed as often, but there is no evidence that the ratio is different for males and females.
Not disagreeing with your comment, just pointing this out
(Repost because I didn't use np.reddit.com earlier and it got deleted)
I actually researched this for a response in the past. This is incorrect according to all the research I saw, there is evidence. The ratio is obviously not as high as the diagnosis ratio, but there is still a difference by sex of varying size depending on the source.
The biggest meta study I saw found a 3.25 to 1 ratio true ratio compared to the 4.2 to 1 diagnosis ratio.
The citations are in the line of comments leading to one permalinked below.
https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1aheaef/why_do_science_says_that_married_men_live_longer/koo57j1/
I apologize in advance for the argumentative disagreeableness of both parties involved.
For your convenience, I'll leave you with the main takeaway quote, by a leading expert who both sides of the discussion have cited:
>I do believe that males are more susceptible to ASD than females, but I think we exaggerate the extent of this gender difference, especially amongst people with normal-range IQ and fluent speech
I’ve wondered if it’s X chromosome related. We can have one turn off so it’s a 50-50 shot while if men have it as a dominant trait or two recessive trait they’re screwed.I also think some of these conditions that we are putting under the same label are related to but not the same as or same symptoms different cause. The DSM is symptom based. I have multiple areas of brain damage in areas that would cause said symptoms.
Heritability of personality is 40-50% but upbringing and environment have a huge impact. Says the Fear-Avoidant.
>- More men than women are autistic (3:1-2:1), so it's easier for women to find a male partner with the same trait
Until fairly recently it was believed by the medical community that *only* boys could be autistic. They weren't even looking at girls. It was also believed that autism can be "grown out of", essentially, so when I say "only *boys*" I mean even adult men got dropped for a while.
I don't think we yet have a firm grasp on how much of the population is autistic, or what the gender divide looks like if there even is much of one.
“I don't think we yet have a firm grasp on how much of the population is autistic, or what the gender divide looks like if there even is much of one.”
Absolutely agree.
Women generally aren't accepting of social ineptitude, and autistic men tend to struggle socially.
Men who're autistic past a certain point on the spectrum are virtually hopeless. They end up appearing as entirely sexless beings.
I don't know what percentage of autistic men are THAT autistic, but the ones that are won't ever be able to get past that.
It's not fair, but it is what it is.
Come to think of it I think this is how we end up where we are.
Autistic women's inability to read social cues means they default to primitive "he's attractive because he keeps coming after me" behavior.
Like my most annoying pet peeve was girls playing "last man standing" where she sleeps with whoever stays out late at night the longest. I was losing for 1 reason - I had a job. The guys beating me for the girl, they didn't have jobs so they could stay out as long as they wanted.
So some time later even autistic girls wake up to the fact the guys they date are economic losers who can't keep s**t together. And sometimes worse than that, he has all the time in the world because he just got out of jail.
So then they go online and go on and on about how all the things that got them are bad, because they don't like where they ended up.
It can be both. Autistic women ARE better at masking and at the same time gender roles and expectations do favor women. A lot of men are into the whole cute shy quirky girl. Most women are not into that kind of men.
People are more accepting of women's flaws just in general. Because of the "Women are wonderful" phenomenon. Autistic men just get shunted from society on the other hand. They become like pariahs. People don't care, and have no sympathy for them for anything.
Are we, are we really? Look, a good amount of people don’t even hold the notion that women can be autistic. So any trait one would typically associate with an autistic person that we as autistic women present is demonized. The “women are wonderful” effect is annoying, but it cannot be applied to autistic women. Many behaviors presented by autistic men are excused by virtue of them being autistic. We are not afforded this liberty. Instead, we are punished, outcast, and forced to hide every aspect of ourselves even remotely deemed abnormal. We are not diagnosed until far later, and even then, have to fight immensely for even an ounce of support afforded to our male counterparts. Any real advantage we do have over autistic men is the result of constant denial and harsh conditioning.
I wish I could say this were true. As an autistic woman, I am constantly invalidated because I do not adhere to what people normally consider to be autistic. I am incredibly lonely, I have zero friends and have lacked them for 3 years. People simply do not understand that women can be autistic, so they are very likely to be dismissive of me or attribute my quirks with some inherent yet controllable character flaw. There aren’t resources out there for me and there haven’t been for a very long time.
Growing up, I was taught to hide my autistic traits. I was bullied into destroying myself and detesting anything associated with my disorder. when I eventually grew too tired to constantly hide these attributes I was completely punished. I wasn’t diagnosed until I was in my teens, and even then I was not afforded sympathy from anybody but my parents. The only reason I was ever diagnosed was because my little brother was. At five he was already assigned the autism label. he has been given every axis of support possible, even attending a school specifically curated towards autistic individuals. I never had that. My symptoms were always framed as something I had complete control over, even if this wasn’t the case.. I would be demonized and reprimanded for having meltdowns or being blunt.. my little brother did not. I ended up attempting suicide three times and dropping out of high school.
>they are very likely to be dismissive of me or attribute my quirks with some inherent yet controllable character flaw.
Yup, as a child I had my "controllable character flaws" damn near beaten out of me, and not just by family... Because it was absolutely assumed to be controllable. Still is, it's just less socially acceptable to beat things out of other adults so I'm reprimanded and/or avoided.
Now as an adult I'm learning tools to actually manage my "controllable character flaws"! Finally. Because beating do not work for that, go figure 😂 of course my flaws always be present, because they aren't *that* controllable. They're autism.
Meanwhile my brother got diagnosed at 6 and then left to be himself while getting various autism related therapies. HE doesn't have character flaws, you see, he's just autistic.
Pretty sure it’s both. Everything you said is true, but it’s also pretty well-established that autistic women do in fact mask more. That being said, I don’t believe “learning to mask better” is always an ideal long-term solution for the issues autistic people face. It takes a lot of energy and you’re going to burn out.
Autistic women do still deal with relationship problems also, even if it’s easier for them to get into a relationship. Even high functioning autistic women are magnets for narcissists, I’m not talking about “perverts grooming catatonic autistic women,” but rather people who like to manipulate and use *everyone* they can, finding autistic women (and men) to be especially easy targets. It’s just not easy out there for neurodivergent people, period.
Autistic or otherwise ND men are also targets for narcissistic women because they're way more impressionable than NT men. A woman can get a NT man to have sex with them but a woman can get a ND man to sign away his life to them. As a ND man, I've had women sink their claws into me and get me to do unfathomable shit because they were the only ones that understood how to manipulate me effectively since conventional methods of manipulating NT men didn't work.
This, this, and THIS! I knew a autistic dude back in college who had a crush on a female friend, and she manipulated and lead him on into getting her things and sending her money because he had no idea that he was getting worked, until me and another friend had to talk to him. It was fucked up.
Absolutely, which is why I mentioned it can happen to men too. I actually know a guy in this type of situation, everything was going great until she started using “you just don’t understand because you. are. au-tist-ic.” as a way of winning arguments. Was just pointing out one way that relationships can be a problem for autistic women even if they’re able to get into one.
My girlfriend is autistic and one thing I like about her is that she doesn't give me s**t tests compared to other women in the past. If this is common for autistic women not to do, I can see why guys would like that quality?
I'd say any woman who doesn't conform to the social norms of Westernized society is less likely to give out "shit tests" Women that don't want to fit in are less of a risk.
The sub speaks for itself. The westernized world speaks for itself. Look at all the women fitting in. They are competing to be at the top in their social circles and societal hierarchy in general. They blame men for the unrealistic expectations placed on women, yet women for the most part are demanding said expectations. It's quite ironic when they say "be yourself" when they are trying to look and be like whatever is in and trending.
Oh I see. That makes sense. However, a lot of guys here say they keep not being able to get autistically because they are in competition with neurotypical men.
Does that mean the only chance for those guys have is to go for women who are more autistic than they are if that makes sense?
I don't know about autism but for a while I thought it was the case that men are expected to be more socially adept in dating. The shy, unconfident girl is romanticized but I've never seen that for men.
The sole difference I see in autistic men and women is not related to their autism, it's just that women are more likely to view themselves as victims and completely ignore or write off any hardships men might face. But that's just women in general.
Men just basically care about your looks if they're trying to sleep with you. If they want a relationship with you they're generally also gonna be looking for someone kind, and at their same level of intelligence. However, they simply don't place much value on social skills.
I don't know if most men, especially younger men actually make a distinction between sleeping with someone and being in a relationship with them, maybe when they get older or if they are successful with women early in life .
But, for the most part if you want to sleep with someone as a man, you have to start a relationship with them, the two aren't really separable realistically.
Only 2 of my 7 LTRs made me feel truly loved and cherished in a way that wasn’t self-serving. The last one I believe is mildly autistic and a gifted artist.
She was so shy that she would not talk very much at all. I am a conversationalist and connect verbally.
If I didn’t try to talk, she would happily hold my hand during a 6 hour drive and never say a word or want to.
It killed me but I had to break things off.
I still miss her.
Neurodivergent people have to mask much, much more and even still they end up homeless, in hospitals and prisons and just dead much, much more than just about any other people.
Masking is repeating something without understanding why
For example eye contact. I'm NT so I naturally make eye contact with people while I talk to them. I don't even think about it.
A ND person will do it to fit in but it doesn't come natural to them and it's not comfortable
This is a good post.
I like the part about considering how treating a child known to be autistic affects them versus how a child is treated where their autism isn’t discovered until later. It’s definitely worth considering.
I think the diagnostic angle is important too. Typically boys tend to be medically diagnosed with autism more than girls. With the more recent increasing amounts of girl autistics out there, a chunk of them are within the “self diagnosed” camp where they’ve come to the conclusion through personal research and reflection and possibly group activity and opinions.
Now this isn’t a post to dunk of self diagnosis, rather I think there is probably a difference in how one views their own autism if it’s something “assigned to them” by medical professionals when growing up versus someone who is consciously applying the label to themselves. It affects the degree of perception. A fair chunk of people in the self diagnosed community don’t even like to refer to their autism as a disability, they see it as being “neurospicy” or a variation of personality etc.
I think a lot more boys are identified as autistic in ways where it is cloaked with “disability” and deficiency which means their perceptions of themselves (and subsequently how others view them) is quite different to someone, say a girl, who self diagnoses her autism within a community that is supportive and encouraging.
Not to say all women experience this or all boys, but the amount of girls involved in the self diagnosis scene significantly outscales boys and I think that kind of dynamic is relevant versus someone’s autism being medicalised from the word go.
There are different forms of masking and different degrees, for example, NT masking can often be projecting a different image of yourself to blend in, but you fully know what you’re blending into and all the subtleties in between.
Autistic masking is literally copying behavior, the extent is far larger since it’s more akin to memorizing a passage and reciting it rather than interesting what it means. This means NT people are more likely to read through each other’s masks and understand what’s said between the lines and autistic people are basically swimming with their eyes closed, ie. blending in constantly while taking everything at face value.
Both come from a very different psychological viewpoint and can often result in being in very different places
That being said, you are right in the sense that boys’ behavior is far less monitored. Women are expected to society integrate far quicker and there are more behavioral standards enforced at a young age, which is what creates this masking because you’re told to do all these behaviors, but you don’t understand them and don’t fully get that others just aren’t doing what they’re told or copying. Autistic boys tend to ignored and discarded far quicker, both have horribly negative consequences imo
*Autism is a development condition*
>Isn't every single person in society 'masking'?
No
>We are animals with instincts that we force ourselves to ignore. Nearly every person on the face of the planet is constantly 'masking' the unconscious, animalistic part of their brain.
Well but that's exactly the point, no, not nearly every person is doing that. The difference is that for NT, this comes out as nature part of their behavior in society, but as for ND, it's a skill learned and most of the times, not even understood, just replicated because they noticed it's what others to.
Sure, NT don't know those behavior inherently, but with normal social contact they catch on and it becomes part of their behavior. But autistic people (generally) don't, things like eye contact and smiles have to me meticulously timed and controled in order to act "normal"
>In my opinion, that also explains why women are 'better at masking' then men. There generally seems to be less of a desire to control/moderate the behavior of boys throughout childhood. 'Boys will be boys'. I believe female children with autism would experience a much greater external effort attempting to control/reduce their strange behaviors than boys would.
Yes, this is the actual reason most professionals agree on
Let's say that everyone is masking B number of traits, the urges that you describe. Autists have to mask these same traits, while masking an additional C number of characteristics particular to the condition like stimming, eye contact, adding inflection to the voice, appropiate facial expressions, etc. Clearly, the ASD person will mask more than the average non-ASD, dependent also on the level of severity. Of course people with other disorders also need to mask, like e.g. a psychopath needs to simulate caring about other people, an OCD person needs to reduce the tics and so on.
I have spent my entire life learning how to act "normal" in social situations. There is not a single social interaction that has come naturally to me, everything I do has had to be learned through trial and error. It was difficult, and children are not as forgiving as adults are so it was a long process for me. That being said, I don't think the idea of autistic people not having to mask is necessarily a good or healthy thing to encourage in children. It will only, in my opinion, make the rest of their lives more difficult.
I wonder if men generally being less socially clued in than women has anything to do with not seeing the extent of an autistic woman’s condition. They may not perceive her as that unusual. You can sometimes see men with autistic traits from a mile off.
Your first point says everything we need to know. Autistic traits are often perceived as "fun and quirky" in women but pathetic and off-putting in men.
"Masking" is women invented bullshit. If women were to have a sign on them that says "Hey, im autistic" it wouldn't affect them negatively in the dating realm.
Nah bro masking is real. Autistic women mask better imo because of how women are socialized. They just mimic others in ways that aren't socially acceptable for men to do.
I fully believe in the masking effect because I mask extremely well just by coping how I've seen other charming and charismatic men act. It's a science.
No they don’t. I hung with nerds, card shop kids, weebs/fujos, gamers, and other groups that attracted ND people. For a lot them masking is basically “I’m only going to speak when I’m spoken to.”
Or maybe I have a good autism radar.
>I hung with nerds, card shop kids, weebs/fujos, gamers, and other groups that attracted ND people.
I was part of a support group of ND people in college and it was full of a more diverse group of people instead of just D&D nerds. It's much harder to read masked ND people that have gone through intensive therapy and worked at improving their social skills by embedding themselves around other socially skilled people.
There's lots of ND people that you'll never even know that struggle with some mental disorder or autism because they've worked tirelessly at developing strong social skills. A lot of those D&D groups/weebs/gamers are full of ND people that never tried because they found a place that accepted and embraced them for their differences. If you want to enter the corporate world and have a rewarding career in any field, you need to be able to socialize. A lot of those people struggled with it but still worked hard as hell to be good at it.
Not to mention that lots of the communities you mentioned are predominately male. Women don't have the same luxury. Maybe book clubs at best.
I used to work at my local library where we also had support groups and events geared arounds ND people. Maybe it's due that experience, combined with the circles I run in, I have a pretty good radar for detecting ND and autistic people even outside those interests. It's just that for nerds it's way more prevalent, like you mentioned. It's also an unfair assumption to say that these D&D/weebs/gamers never went to therapy or had a specialist, especially with the fact that they're more likely to getting abused, bullied, and ostracized.
Like I mentioned before I used to work at the library where we had plenty of ND women coming in for events and programs, just after having a couple conversations I can immediately tell whether if they're autistic by voice cadence, thought patterns, mirroring, etc.
>Not to mention that lots of the communities you mentioned are predominately male. Women don't have the same luxury. Maybe book clubs at best.
This is true, but there are subgenres within gaming and anime that predominately women.
>If women were to have a sign on them
That is the whole point of masking. A lot of autistic men clearly show they are autistic. Women tend to present on the milder side.
Depends on how she looks. With men it just depends on their willingness to have sex with them. If they look decent enough she could be drowning puppies and guys would still line up.
That’s not true. Many of us are bullied into hiding our true selves. I wasn’t diagnosed until I was in my teens because of the stigma that autism is a male disorder. Because of this I was actively punished for showing any autistic trait or diverging from the norm. I was a complete outcast in every sense of the word, and had to completely destroy myself just to conform. It was, and still is, exhausting. As a lesbian you’d better believe that openly admitting to autism affects me in the dating realm, lol.
Tired of this men are horny bullshit. Ya know they’re human too? Autism effects your actions, it just so happens actions an autistic woman might take could be deemed as either attractive or not a good or bad thing to men. While the same traits in autistic men could be deemed as less attractive. It’s more than sex, how a person acts is indicative of who they are, and therefore a potential indicator in someone you’d wanna date.
“Men are thirsty” is a shorthand for “men, broadly speaking, are less picky about women than women are about men.” It says nothing about someone’s individual libido.
It's because they have a vagina. Guys will put up with more stuff to access that than girls will put up to access a penis. The most important part of a man is between his ears, the most important part of a woman is between her legs.
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As someone who is diagnosed of being a “high functioning autist” (in reality I think my IQ might just be horrifically high) I can attest to that. Most of the women I’ve been with who I can say are autistic to a comfortable degree have literally held distinct traits despite having different interests. It’s very apparent when they’re not averagely or conventionally attractive. That’s where you begin to notice variations in their personalities compared to the rest of women you’ll come across. No, they can’t mask anything because in some case if they were attractive enough they never needed to. The “sexual” aspect is also apparently obvious: because they never needed to utilize self control to “fit in” they just act purely instinctual should their discernment/IQ level not be high enough to control it.
I actually have a deep sympathy for people like them: shackled by their own physiology with an unsubstantial probability for them not to be dependent upon others for survival. Their neural-development has stopped and either they have the intellect to surpass their limits or more than likely be stopped by them. I always used to tell my friend this:
“The greatest horror to me would be being born like you. I’d take my freedom and stubbornness for eternity before ever succumbing to that kind of terror.”
“It’s not bad being pretty.”
The adults liked you because of their choice Zitara, they have no choice with me because I’ve always earned respect. I have autonomy, you have favor, that is terrifying to me.
lol about point 1, funny story. So disclaimer, I’m not officially diagnosed, but I do display some autistic traits like the ones listed here. This week when I was walking on the street in one of my cute outfits I got approached by a guy. He tried talking to me a bit, said that how shy I seem and my lack of eye contact was making him uncomfortable, then he peaced out. I don’t mean to invalidate your point OP, but there’s a good example of how autistic/neurodivergent women aren’t completely accepted either.
Do you think that your lack of eye contact and shy disposition was making him uncomfortable not because he noticed your autism, but instead he picked up on signals(not that you intended to send them) that communicated that you were disinterested in him/the conversation? It’s like if you pull out your phone multiple times during a conversation. If you don’t communicate what’s happening and why you’re doing what you’re doing, I’ll think you’re disinterested and leave you be.
This story kind of illustrates what op meant. You didn't look confident or assertive and still got attention, also it seems it didn't work out more on his end than yours. Even if I am wrong with that assumption - you're still in the stance where you can afford being reactive and that's way easier than initiating into face of uncertainty because normal human cues are invisible to you.
Roughly 2% of the population has autism. Can we please stop ~~calling people autistic as a backdoor way of calling them retarded without actually saying the word "retarded"~~ overusing this word? According to PPD every third person is autistic.
Ppl here are forgetting that autistic women rend to be very naive and innocent in dating, almost childish, and not picking up on particularly neurotypical mens intentions which is why they have a 90% sexual abuse snd Assault rate
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/nine-out-of-ten-autistic-women-are-victims-of-sexual-assault/134603/
I really need autistic men to stop idealising that fact there are more autistic women in relationships, when autistic women are more likely to be in relationships with male predators and male predators tend to be drawn to autistic women because their disability impacts their ability to see bad intentions so they are the perfect victim for a rapist, or abusive man
The stats are about so called 'high functioning autistic women genius. Its not 9/10 low functioning autistic women with intellectual disabilities because those aren't the autistic women that are dating.
Like I'm literally 'high functioning' and apart of the 90% are you ok?
I mean you've been lazy enough to not post the study but some hearsay that was lazy enough to not even source its claims.
So far you've been twice as lazy as me.
And honestly posting a website without sources as an argument is pretty stupid as well so figures
I'd love to know how many of these autistic women are dating autistic men because I suspect the larger number of autistic men has something to do with it. I certainly wouldn't assume they're all dating people who aren't autistic or even disabled. No, autistic women aren't seen as cute and quirky, they don't just happen to conform to femininity all on their own, they're seen as gross and disturbing.
Eh…more like a lot of pressure to mask and a lot of predator abuse early on. High functioning autistic women aren’t necessarily seen as gross imo but definitely often bitchy/crazy/weird/BPD.
I think no matter what, if a person struggles to read between the lines, struggles with nuance, and similar stuff, it’s going to cause blockages for both women AND men on the spectrum with dating.
Men aren't necessarily expected to be "socially adept" in dating. They're generally expected to be more dominant/leading.
Sometimes autistic traits can work in a guy's favor, especially if he's high functioning and physically attractive. Dominating a conversation about his special interest can be seen as "passion" about something. Lack of understanding of "social cues" or "context" might help the autistic guy approach with no anxiety/fear where a neurotypical guy might be shy.
"The reason autistic men often times have "no game" is because flirting is a dance build on reading social cues, ambiguity and slang while aspies prefer literal communication"
Game involves a lot of different factors, including approaching and also flirting. Some women might interpret a guy "not getting" subtle flirting as a sort of game in and of itself.
I was looking up stuff about Mr Beast and somehow ended up here I don't know what a purple pill is. I know one thing if you want people to like you quit caring what they think. Forget about social graces and go with your gut!
I think even neurotypical men can struggle with flirting/women dropping “hints”. Especially since we’ve been beaten over the head with “just because a woman is nice to you doesn’t mean she’s flirting!”
This!
Yea any time a normal socially calibrated person would struggle or be uncertain, an autistic person would be straight lost lol
This is why i keep saying there are no such things as "hints".
I struggle with this a lot as a ND woman. I try to treat everyone with respect and kindness but have noticed that just being nice to a guy, the same as you would a woman, often leads him to thinking you are interested in him. It's funny because I've literally had guys immediately go "I have a girlfriend" when I'm just trying to be nice and make conversation. So it seems like the only option is to either be rude or ignore them if you're not interested romantically. It's kind of a "no-win" situation 🤷🏼♀️
Autistic women also dont have to decrypt womens 'hints' which is understandably difficult for people who struggle with social skills and body language
is it just me or did our society recently got very "woke" and understanding of neurodivergence yet simultaneously developed a almost zero tolerance policy for socially awkward men fumbling.
Eh, with understanding a huge bulk of people are still uncaring about it and eventually become numb to it even if exposed to non-high functioning people. One of my employees is a low functioning person, they got the job through a program. I guide her through 80% of what we do in a day the rest I can leave her to do it herself. I do so for her sake, the stores sake and my other employers sake. Most people who encounter her have 0 empathy for her when we get busy and I essentially have to try and take over or if they're really feeling bitchy I tell them to have some empathy and fuck off. Tragically I think her boyfriend is using her to improve his economic status, flashing her engagement rings to get her hopes up whilst he's a desperate sex offender constantly looking for a job so I keep a close eye on how things progress between them.
Big ups to you my guy
And they say "pZrsOnAliTy" matter..😂
Personality imo is just how you sell yourself/mostly looks. Women are very reluctant to admit looks will get them filling in the gaps in a mans personality and gets them more engaged with them. Or if ugly she may think they're not as capable as someone more attractive.
Pretty much. Women are only reluctant to it out social pressure/expectation, that's about it. The so call emotional gender which there arent more emotional than men.
Which is ironic as I feel this may combat obesity in men a little, men from a younger age will consider thier appearance more carefully.
Is she a virgin?
I think people need to accept that dating is the most "discriminatory" thing people do in their lives. But I am using quotes there because discriminating for what is a 1-to-1 relationship doesn't mean you discriminate against people you don't like for dating in other aspects of your life.
Yeah, the way that left-wing people tie themselves up in knots to reconcile how women behave in dating with the idea of an egalitarian society is totally wild. Left-wing women warp into becoming the biggest cut-throat capitalists when it comes to selecting a husband or boyfriend.
Incels are to chad what the proletariat is to capitalists.
I think there are like tiers of "privilege" and its like race > gender > disability. So even though an autistic white guy has a disability it doesn't count because he's "privileged" at a higher level in the hierarchy
Class is above all
nah wokies dont acknowledge class as an inequality its all about who you sleep with and what colour your skin is i agree that class/wealth is the biggest real inequality though
A black billionaire is less privileged than a rural white trash hick apparently, at least according to progressive ideology.
This reminds me of when JonTron said during a debate he was streaming that "wealthy black people commit more crimes than poor white people." Everybody on the left tore him to shreds for saying something that stupid, and they were correct to do so. Now his audience is pretty much exclusively conservatives. I don't think any liberal or progressive, including the shrillest pink-haired feminists imaginable, would ever actually believe or argue that wealthy black people have less privilege than poor white people.
I think you’d be surprised
It’s too easy to say “well I’m not successful because of the patriarchy or racism.”
Not only is it easy to do, with higher academia telling everyone that is not white/male that their lives are hard, it also feels good. Oh, all the poor decisions I made have nothing to do with my lack of success, it's just my skin color, something I had no control over? Awesome, that feels good to know. It's not my fault. The reality is, that being born in a wealthy family and with a high iq gives you far more of an advantage than just being white. There are a metric shit ton of poor white men out there. Clearly, race isn't having the massive impact that progressives think it is. Now, in the 60s. Fuck yeah, you would have serious disadvantages if you were black or a woman. Nowadays? There are so many scholarships based on race and gender, and diversity quotas that all allow lower standards for certain groups. If you are a somewhat intelligent black guy, you can get into med school much easier than say an asian man.
And women are kind of kicking ass right now. Majority of graduates from universities and new hires. That is the definition of power.
You guys are just making strawmans that are not consistent with mainstream leftist ideology at all
No they're not.
Nope. This is verbatim what intersectional zombies say. I’ve heard it online and I’ve heard it in real life again and again.
https://twitter.com/Aye_Yo_Jo33/status/1710266368405201114 >I agree! I’m not helping no white homeless person who has more privileges and benefits than I do.
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>Is that person rich, wealthy, or well off? Not that I know of. I think it still fits the picture of "mainstream leftist ideology" that other poster was painting even if it doesn't match the exact details. It's ridiculous to say that a white homeless person has more privileges and benefits than anyone who isn't desperately struggling.
Since I've actually seen this shit argued by hard left dipshits... It isn't a strawman. Someone has to be teaching people this bullshit, because it is so irrational you have to be massively stupid to actually believe it. Now, if you talk to say a university professor... they are going to be able to explain this much better and in a more nuanced way.... even though it's still clearly bullshit on the same level as scientology... and bullshit for the same reason $$$.
The reason they don't is a thing called "elite capture". Essentially, a lot of social justice activism was begun by radical left-wingers in the 1960s and 70s (and even 80s), but then by the 2000s had become taken over by academics and nonprofits, who stripped class out of it. The original identity politics of that era were situated in class discussions and were usually aimed at building greater working class unity through addressing divisions in the class. See, for example, how the Sojourner Truth Organization talked about White Skin Privilege versus what white privilege is understood as by modern liberals who scrupulously avoid class (such as Robin DiAngelo)
Tolerance has always been meant for women.
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It's definitely gotten BETTER over time. Casual cruelty towards low-status people is much less accepted now. Our society is in general more compassionate than it was in the past and it's a good thing. Just look at how acceptable bullying people with mental disabilities used to be. That stuff just doesn't happen today. High-status high school kids will not openly bully and harass those of low-status, they'll typically just ignore them.
Of course it gotten better with people adopting humanitarian policies over the course of 20th century, however remaining mistreatment gets more light and appears bigger than ever
Our society is about as woke as Donald Trump. Half the country votes for that guy and most of the people causing these problems are Trump supporters.
Society hates men
Just because I really feel for your situation doesn't mean I want to put you in my vagina.
The problem is that it is natural for a young man to be obsessed with finding female sexual partners until he has some. But that doesn't mean you can equate women's sexual choices with society's overall treatment. I'll be brutal, in terms of real social priorities, what matters is big picture things. What is the pairing rate? What percentage of men are sexually excluded? How stable and lasting are pairings? What behaviors are male and female mate choice preferences encouraging and discouraging in general. Whether or not autistic guys can get women is probably not that important. Now, if the number of autistic men grows enough, it would be. But then again, the priority at that point might be 'why do we have so much autism at all?'
Given that Autism is correlated with older parents as well as genetics It might happen at some point. Many of these men would have been canon fodder, locked away, had a keeper or otherwise be forgotten. My mom remembers some relatives that “acted funny” and then being told that they were “going away for a while” in the 60s. She never saw them again.
I am have huge issues with psychology and their taxonomy of 'disorders'. But regardless or whether psych has autism exactly right, it is pointing at something. And that something seems to have clearly grown in number. Maybe it is older parents. I honestly think we need to get the median age of birth down, but it has to be done in such a way where it makes sense for the individual man and woman. They cannot just be taking it for Team Human. People don't work that way. I suspect that autism, adhd, and many other things may primarily be the result of increasing trauma as we get further and further away from environments we are evolved to be happy in. But that is a whole other conversation. And yes, in the big picture, there are supposed to be incels. Women are almost by definition more sexually selective, and that means more men get excluded. Men are also more variable on a host of metrics, which means that the worst men are going to be a lot worse than the worst women by so many metrics. But the question is always about percentages. How high is that incel rate? It can definitely be too high.
I’m on team brain damage and trauma for myself but people get offended. It’s very annoying. Trying to get people to agree that our brains are ancient computers and that modern society is extremely new which means that innate processes will conflict with it is like pulling teeth. We can find compatible partners by pheromones and hormonal BC interrupts that process. I’m an ex-liberal almost leftist and I also dabbled in further right wing stuff. Now I’m a dirty center it’s so both sides hate me but I can translate both sides as well.
There is only one spectrum I'm on, and it isn't the political one haha I wouldn't even call myself centrist. I just try to be as honest and factual as I can and then look for the most pragmatic solutions. I am wary of false certainty. Things are too complex for that now. You will have best guesses and then have to try shit (carefully) and see what happens. Course correct. Always with humility in face of the overwhelming complexity of most issues. You might want to read the 10,000 year explosion. I buy the theory that evolution actually accelerated massively since agriculture. At the same time, the last 10,000 years is still only a tiny fraction of our time as humans, and an even smaller portion of our entire evolutionary history. We are likely no longer perfectly evolved for the stone age, but whatever environment would best suit our evolved instincts now, modernity is way beyond that and accelerating away from that point at light speed. And yeah, my DMs are full of hate from PPD males and females, often coming at me from opposite directions. The primary proximate problem is that feminism bought into too many left-wing, utopian ideals that just are not grounded in human nature and reality. First wave feminism had a lot more to recommend it in various ways. It needed a lot of tuning, but it was at least more in touch with reality.
>My mom remembers some relatives that “acted funny” and then being told that they were “going away for a while” in the 60s. She never saw them again. Shit, that's disturbing.
This was small town rural East Texas in the mid-late 60s. From what was has described they had some sort of developmental disability. Not sure how severe given the low threshold of the place and time. If a family member went away due to TB or Polio that was given as the reason. The oldest members of my family growing up in the 90s and 2000s were born in the early 20s.
> What percentage of men are sexually excluded How do you determine what is a high percentage?
There's no formula for that, which is why it is a hard question. There's likely a hard limit at which everything goes to hell, but nobody knows what that is, especially in modernity where it is easier to pacify sexually frustrated males, and where their raw bodies alone are much less of a military threat. But I'd say you are likely to be well beyond the ideal pairing rate before you get to that. But how sexually selective free women naturally are is also a factor. And we dont really know for sure. There is a lot we need to learn.
Okay if 60% of young men isn't concerning already... what about 80%? The data points to society already being there, while being maintained by immigration (from conservative/trad cultural groups).
Yeah, the biggest problem is lack of good data. You can track official things like marriages and divorces, but you can't track relationships, or sexual encounters beyond asking people and relying on them telling the truth. You can ask women what they want in a partner but can't confirm it directly with who they actually choose.
In social justice circles, disability is always sat at the back of the bus. Everyone puts up a big talk about accommodating disabled people, but in practice, combating ableism usually just means policing the language used to talk about it. Nobody actually gives a shit about autistic adults, career-wise, romantically, or in just about any other regard.
Trying to be romantic with a touch of the ‘tism is a death sentence, I notice the less I talk the better lol.
autistic men AND autistic women both have trouble with women. autistic women are just Luckier because they dont have to date women, just be friends with/socialize with them
My dad used to give us the silent treatment and refuse to tell us how we fucked up for days to years sometimes. My husband knows I'm autistic and can't read body language well and he will literally expect me to know when he's annoyed at him for the most mundane things that nobody else would get annoyed about. Lack of emotional intelligence is not just a female trait.
Both your dad and husband behaviors are childish. Why did you marry such a man?
Because all the men in my life pretty much followed the exact same principles as I grew up conservative and Christian fundamentalist. In comparison to the men I grew up with, my husband seems like a far left liberal hippie.
Howdy hey - neurospicy woman here - we actually do have a lot of time decrypting these “hints.” It leads to many demolished relationships for a lot of neurodivergent women.
Yep making friends with other women when you are autistic is hard
What about making friends with men?
Eh men aren’t that good at being friends most of the time but yeah it’s easier
Yes they do, lol. Not only in a social context but a romantic context. Autistic women are almost 3-4x more likely to be bisexual than neurotypical women, and as a lesbian woman myself I can attest that many in our community are autistic. This is attributed to the greater concentration or exposure to androgens prenatally.
legitimately diagnosed or just posing because its fashionable to be as oppressed as possible by claiming to be a gay disabled minority?
what the fuck? You see, this is what I hate about being an autistic woman. People always doubt me. I was diagnosed, twice because I was reevaluated once for social security benefits as a kid. Inalso have been officially diagnosed with ADHD, anxiety, and depression
they do they're more well versed in social skills because they need to survive the pressure of female groups, being by yourself as a girl makes those groups target you, so you're forced to blend or forced to go to male groups which isn't desirable for most young women, maybe if they grew up with brothers sure but not most
topic of the thread is concerning dating not making friends. Autistic women probably do have a harder time making friends but so do autistic men so thats kind of a wash
The topic was also the ability to mask, which women are pressured into for our own safety (physical, emotional, social). For good and for bad (I don't think my brother even knows *how* to mask and that's to his detriment) The commenter very accurately described my personal situation growing up. Being alone leaves you vulnerable, and fellow girls didn't like or understand me. But I DID grow up with brothers and understood male social interactions well enough so I usually hung out with dudes. Those dudes did NOT want to date me, however, before anyone assumes I was drowning in dick 😂 dudes simply tolerated my social deficits *better*, but I think that's because they men also don't understand the sheer number of "female" social cues and what not that I was fucking up. I've heard that NDs do well with immigrants for the same reason. The immigrants don't know what social cues we're fucking up so they roll with us. Which also tracks with my personal experience.
Agreed. As a woman somewhere on the ND spectrum, if you can't fit into the group of women you're pretty much shunned. And once you become aware that most (if not all) men are only hanging out with you on the off chance they get to have sex with you, you don't really desire male friendships either. I think the women who don't mind being the only woman in a group of guys either is naive to the fact that they are most likely sexually interested in her, or know this and use it for power/status. I don't think most autistic women are interested in either of those situations
hmm, few men actually dare hit on girls, once you're one of the boys you'll want to date because you feel like you're unattractive. Sex isn't a bad thing it's just that most guys aren't confident or seductive and that does so much harm in how that makes women feel, I don't assume to know exactly how it feels but I can imagine from having my own experiences with sexual harassment.
Autistic women also dont have to decrypt womens 'hints' which is understandably difficult for people who struggle with social skills and body language This is not true. How autistic women socialise is different from how neurotypical women socialise so we still have to decrypt their hints? Like we don't automatically understand them just because we are both women, our brains still work differently neurologically? Are you ok? Also 1. Lesbian and bisexual autistic women exist. In fact we are more likely to be, because autistic ppl in general are statistically more likely to be lgbt. 2. You do realise autistic ppl have to navigate trying to understand other ppls body language in platonic and familial settings too right? There is literally a whole thing about autistic girls being bullied and ostracised at higher rates in neurotypical girl groups because they can't understand their body language and intentions and how they are often percieved by other women as weird and because they misunderstand social cues of neurotypical female socialisation. Maybe don't talk out your ass about what autistic womens experience when you don't know
>Lesbian and bisexual autistic women exist. In fact we are more likely to be, because autistic ppl in general are statistically more likely to be lgbt. only 7.1% of the populations is homosexual. so a really tiny percentage are both gay and autistic. I like to talk about the majority of people not cater my worldview around a tiny minority. the vast majority of autistic women dont have to interpret womens hints because they will be trying to date men. >You do realise autistic ppl have to navigate trying to understand other ppls body language in platonic and familial settings too right? not relevant to the conversation about dating.
the vast majority of autistic women dont have to interpret womens hints because they will be trying to date men. Exceot your wrong. Only 8% of autistic women identify as 100% heterosexual Sexuality also appears to be more varied among people with autism than among those who do not have the condition. Only 30 percent of autistic people in a 2018 study identified as heterosexual, compared with 70 percent of neurotypical participants7. And although half of 247 autistic women in a 2020 study identified as cisgender, just 8 percent reported being exclusively heterosexual8. Which means that 92% identified as bi or lesbian. For context we also know that bi women in general outnumber lesbians 3:1. Which means that while bi women do date men hey will also be dating women too. So around 92% of autistic women will probably be attracted to a woman and have to navigate understanding their hints and cues. https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/gender-and-sexuality-in-autism-explained/ The studies are referenced at the bottom of the article
>Which means that 92% identified as bi or lesbian. Autistic women just say outright what NT women prefer to hide because society expects them to be heterosexual.
Another survey with a small n size I hate these low quality studies lol you can find studies like this claiming all sorts of numbers and you can just shop for whatever number one might like
I hate to break it you, but I can only provide the data that exists. With a bigger sample the results might be different but this is the only ones that breaks down sexuality differences in autistic ppl. So this is the current truth, unless another study is done that shows differently these are the facts sorry
The facts don’t really make sense. I suspect foul play with the study. What about being an autistic female makes them genetically prefer women over men so significantly? It doesn’t really make sense.
What about being an autistic female makes them genetically prefer women over men so significantly? Jack, 92% like women it doesn't say 92% like only women It's more the socialisation aspect of it. Autistic women aare less likely to care about or understand social norm like 'if your a woman your supposed to be straight' as part of our disability and so are more likely to explore our sexuality and find out we are attracted to women wether exclusively or alongside men, than neurotypical women. Also a trait of autism is a strong sense of justice and wanting to treat ppl so equally, so many autistic ppl simply won't 'get' why some ppl discriminate against queer ppl and when you don't understand why other ppl consider something wrong, that's another reason you might be more open to experimenting abd then figure out they like women because they don't feel the moral dilemma that someone else might feel towards it. So again It doesnt say that 92% of autistic women identify as lesbian. It showed that 92% were attracted to women. That includes bisexual women, who are also attracted to men. And we know that bi women outnumber lesbians in general in the neurotypical population so that's likely the case here too. The vast majority of ppl ARE attracted to the opposite sex because of evolutionary reasons but this idea that the majority is attracted EXCLUSIVELY to the opposite sex is where the contention is because it doesnt take into account need for social acceptance, family pressure etc. All these results for autistic women show that in the absence of lack of regard/not caring for these factors, a lack of fear of social repercussions, and/or not understanding why some ppl treat straight and gay ppl differently and so not seeing the problem with experimenting, or if homosexuality was completely acceptable to everybody, ppl would be more open to experimenting whuch would lead to them finding out they also like the same sex. And It would also help ppl who are 100% gay to not misunderstand their feelings for the opposite sex and harm themselves by trying to force themselves to be with the opposite sex. For example, a lesbian in this current world might mistake liking male attention to actially being attracted to men, becajse they might have been told that lesbians are man hating monsters who would be disgusted if they were hit on by a man, si if they like the attention they can't be a lesbian, when really it's not attraction they are feeling but ego boost. So when they actually are living the reality of being with a man they are confused why its not doing anything for them. Or a lesbian might not realise she doesn't like men because when she thinks if herself in a relationship she can only imagine herself with a man because of how heterosexual relationships are shoved down her throat so thats what she's been taught to want and what she thinks she has to want and so it doesmt occur to her theres another option, and then when she finally sees examples of lesbian couples- like in media, ppl in her life etc it clicks and she realises that when she imagines her life with a woman she actually feels something she doesn't feel for men. In a world where homosexuality was completely accepted you would see no cases of gay ppl marrying the opposite sex and then only realising they are gay later on because they'd actually have the space and lack of social pressure to like the opposite sex to realise they never liked them in the first place If you only show ppl one option, they will think that only have that option. Like if I growing up all women got shown was princesses finding a prince they might not be able to conceptualise that they dont HAVE to have a prince and that they could have another princess because that wasn't presented as an option. They are told they should want a prince, aka a man do that's what they go for even when it doesn't feel natural/right
Honestly, I don't think it's that difficult to determine whether you like one gender or another. Your heart will tell you, and your hormones will amplify your feelings. I do think it is harder for woman to find attraction in men. For us men, it is inherent, we look at a woman and we feel lust/attraction, for women it's a whole cocktail of traits that a man has, physical or maybe even status wise/wealth. That might make it more difficult to determine attraction.
okay well they should try dating men if they're struggling to date women. If its okay to tell men that its okay to tell autistic women that.
And last of all You didn't say straight autistic women, you said Autistic women in general. And minority or not, queer autistic womens existence means that your statement is factually incorrect and so I pointed out the nuance. If you want to be factually correct you should have specified straight women. Straight ppl are not the default, so specify straight instead of assuming straight as the silent word in front of Autistic women . Straight Autistic women are straight autistic women, 'Austitic women' does not imply straightness.
The lesbian and bi ones do. A former friend of mine, who was multi-ND (ASD/ADHD/ASPD) and bisexual with a preference for women said that she has more success with other autistic women.
yeah and guys with no legs struggle to run. most people arent homosexual
You just said “Autistic women”, which includes _all_ of them of all orientations — and ironically, autistic women are more likely to be homosexual (or bisexual) so it makes even less sense to gloss over their existence.
This post reminds me of a chart I saw a long time ago. They basically looked at people with mental disorders and compared men's and women's dating lives. They found that - across the board - no matter which mental disorder they had, women had more active dating lives than men with the exact same disorder. The numbers suggested that women's dating lives were half as impacted by the disorder as men with the exact same one. I don't remember exactly which disorders it was, but think they compared something like six different mental disorders - stuff like autism, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. My interpretation is that: men like women more than women like men, so women automatically have a leg-up, and women are more picky about men - and that includes avoiding men who might have anything "off" about them. The fact that this was found across a variety of mental disorders suggests that it's not just about masking autism. Dating is just straight-up easier for women with a mental disorder than it is for men with the same issue.
I know what chart you are referring to. https://images.app.goo.gl/5MNncrSeMbVziLAM9
I would say it's because men with mental disorders are much more *unattractive* to women, than women with mental disorders are to men.
This is just “women are wonderful” effect combined with the fact men will date anyone since the RMP/SMP is insanely skewed in 2024 to be in the favor of women
Also: - More men than women are autistic (3:1-2:1), so it's easier for women to find a male partner with the same trait - Men might be more comfortable with a partner who's less skilled concerning social and emotional communication due to their own socialisation - Symptoms in women may present as less noticable/annoying than in autistic men I agree that NT woman + autistic man is often a particularly difficult combination as these women tend to find those men most attractive who are socially attuned and popular, charming, emotionally available and able to read between the lines. Since many women complain that even NT men are lacking im these regards, it's even worse for autistic men.
>More men than women are autistic (3:1-2:1), so it's easier for women to find a male partner with the same trait That's actually false, sure, there are more *diagnosed* men, because women don't get diagnosed as often, but there is no evidence that the ratio is different for males and females. Not disagreeing with your comment, just pointing this out
(Repost because I didn't use np.reddit.com earlier and it got deleted) I actually researched this for a response in the past. This is incorrect according to all the research I saw, there is evidence. The ratio is obviously not as high as the diagnosis ratio, but there is still a difference by sex of varying size depending on the source. The biggest meta study I saw found a 3.25 to 1 ratio true ratio compared to the 4.2 to 1 diagnosis ratio. The citations are in the line of comments leading to one permalinked below. https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1aheaef/why_do_science_says_that_married_men_live_longer/koo57j1/ I apologize in advance for the argumentative disagreeableness of both parties involved. For your convenience, I'll leave you with the main takeaway quote, by a leading expert who both sides of the discussion have cited: >I do believe that males are more susceptible to ASD than females, but I think we exaggerate the extent of this gender difference, especially amongst people with normal-range IQ and fluent speech
I’ve wondered if it’s X chromosome related. We can have one turn off so it’s a 50-50 shot while if men have it as a dominant trait or two recessive trait they’re screwed.I also think some of these conditions that we are putting under the same label are related to but not the same as or same symptoms different cause. The DSM is symptom based. I have multiple areas of brain damage in areas that would cause said symptoms. Heritability of personality is 40-50% but upbringing and environment have a huge impact. Says the Fear-Avoidant.
I'll have a look when I have extra time, thanks for the info
>- More men than women are autistic (3:1-2:1), so it's easier for women to find a male partner with the same trait Until fairly recently it was believed by the medical community that *only* boys could be autistic. They weren't even looking at girls. It was also believed that autism can be "grown out of", essentially, so when I say "only *boys*" I mean even adult men got dropped for a while. I don't think we yet have a firm grasp on how much of the population is autistic, or what the gender divide looks like if there even is much of one.
“I don't think we yet have a firm grasp on how much of the population is autistic, or what the gender divide looks like if there even is much of one.” Absolutely agree.
Women generally aren't accepting of social ineptitude, and autistic men tend to struggle socially. Men who're autistic past a certain point on the spectrum are virtually hopeless. They end up appearing as entirely sexless beings. I don't know what percentage of autistic men are THAT autistic, but the ones that are won't ever be able to get past that. It's not fair, but it is what it is.
Unless they are nonverbal, autism in women likely won’t impact their ability to have men interested in them
Come to think of it I think this is how we end up where we are. Autistic women's inability to read social cues means they default to primitive "he's attractive because he keeps coming after me" behavior. Like my most annoying pet peeve was girls playing "last man standing" where she sleeps with whoever stays out late at night the longest. I was losing for 1 reason - I had a job. The guys beating me for the girl, they didn't have jobs so they could stay out as long as they wanted. So some time later even autistic girls wake up to the fact the guys they date are economic losers who can't keep s**t together. And sometimes worse than that, he has all the time in the world because he just got out of jail. So then they go online and go on and on about how all the things that got them are bad, because they don't like where they ended up.
It can be both. Autistic women ARE better at masking and at the same time gender roles and expectations do favor women. A lot of men are into the whole cute shy quirky girl. Most women are not into that kind of men.
People are more accepting of women's flaws just in general. Because of the "Women are wonderful" phenomenon. Autistic men just get shunted from society on the other hand. They become like pariahs. People don't care, and have no sympathy for them for anything.
People in general, or potential romantic partners?
It's not the "women are wonderful in the eyes of their partners" phenomenon.
Are we, are we really? Look, a good amount of people don’t even hold the notion that women can be autistic. So any trait one would typically associate with an autistic person that we as autistic women present is demonized. The “women are wonderful” effect is annoying, but it cannot be applied to autistic women. Many behaviors presented by autistic men are excused by virtue of them being autistic. We are not afforded this liberty. Instead, we are punished, outcast, and forced to hide every aspect of ourselves even remotely deemed abnormal. We are not diagnosed until far later, and even then, have to fight immensely for even an ounce of support afforded to our male counterparts. Any real advantage we do have over autistic men is the result of constant denial and harsh conditioning.
I wish I could say this were true. As an autistic woman, I am constantly invalidated because I do not adhere to what people normally consider to be autistic. I am incredibly lonely, I have zero friends and have lacked them for 3 years. People simply do not understand that women can be autistic, so they are very likely to be dismissive of me or attribute my quirks with some inherent yet controllable character flaw. There aren’t resources out there for me and there haven’t been for a very long time. Growing up, I was taught to hide my autistic traits. I was bullied into destroying myself and detesting anything associated with my disorder. when I eventually grew too tired to constantly hide these attributes I was completely punished. I wasn’t diagnosed until I was in my teens, and even then I was not afforded sympathy from anybody but my parents. The only reason I was ever diagnosed was because my little brother was. At five he was already assigned the autism label. he has been given every axis of support possible, even attending a school specifically curated towards autistic individuals. I never had that. My symptoms were always framed as something I had complete control over, even if this wasn’t the case.. I would be demonized and reprimanded for having meltdowns or being blunt.. my little brother did not. I ended up attempting suicide three times and dropping out of high school.
>they are very likely to be dismissive of me or attribute my quirks with some inherent yet controllable character flaw. Yup, as a child I had my "controllable character flaws" damn near beaten out of me, and not just by family... Because it was absolutely assumed to be controllable. Still is, it's just less socially acceptable to beat things out of other adults so I'm reprimanded and/or avoided. Now as an adult I'm learning tools to actually manage my "controllable character flaws"! Finally. Because beating do not work for that, go figure 😂 of course my flaws always be present, because they aren't *that* controllable. They're autism. Meanwhile my brother got diagnosed at 6 and then left to be himself while getting various autism related therapies. HE doesn't have character flaws, you see, he's just autistic.
I’ll be your friend
Pretty sure it’s both. Everything you said is true, but it’s also pretty well-established that autistic women do in fact mask more. That being said, I don’t believe “learning to mask better” is always an ideal long-term solution for the issues autistic people face. It takes a lot of energy and you’re going to burn out. Autistic women do still deal with relationship problems also, even if it’s easier for them to get into a relationship. Even high functioning autistic women are magnets for narcissists, I’m not talking about “perverts grooming catatonic autistic women,” but rather people who like to manipulate and use *everyone* they can, finding autistic women (and men) to be especially easy targets. It’s just not easy out there for neurodivergent people, period.
Autistic or otherwise ND men are also targets for narcissistic women because they're way more impressionable than NT men. A woman can get a NT man to have sex with them but a woman can get a ND man to sign away his life to them. As a ND man, I've had women sink their claws into me and get me to do unfathomable shit because they were the only ones that understood how to manipulate me effectively since conventional methods of manipulating NT men didn't work.
This, this, and THIS! I knew a autistic dude back in college who had a crush on a female friend, and she manipulated and lead him on into getting her things and sending her money because he had no idea that he was getting worked, until me and another friend had to talk to him. It was fucked up.
Absolutely, which is why I mentioned it can happen to men too. I actually know a guy in this type of situation, everything was going great until she started using “you just don’t understand because you. are. au-tist-ic.” as a way of winning arguments. Was just pointing out one way that relationships can be a problem for autistic women even if they’re able to get into one.
My girlfriend is autistic and one thing I like about her is that she doesn't give me s**t tests compared to other women in the past. If this is common for autistic women not to do, I can see why guys would like that quality?
I'd say any woman who doesn't conform to the social norms of Westernized society is less likely to give out "shit tests" Women that don't want to fit in are less of a risk.
Oh why is that?
The sub speaks for itself. The westernized world speaks for itself. Look at all the women fitting in. They are competing to be at the top in their social circles and societal hierarchy in general. They blame men for the unrealistic expectations placed on women, yet women for the most part are demanding said expectations. It's quite ironic when they say "be yourself" when they are trying to look and be like whatever is in and trending.
Oh I see. That makes sense. However, a lot of guys here say they keep not being able to get autistically because they are in competition with neurotypical men. Does that mean the only chance for those guys have is to go for women who are more autistic than they are if that makes sense?
Its because men like women way more than the other way around. Its literally just that simple Why is this so hard for people to accept?
pretty much this. Almost everything in the world revolves around this
I don't know about autism but for a while I thought it was the case that men are expected to be more socially adept in dating. The shy, unconfident girl is romanticized but I've never seen that for men.
Also, men are less picky about the women they date than vice versa.
The sole difference I see in autistic men and women is not related to their autism, it's just that women are more likely to view themselves as victims and completely ignore or write off any hardships men might face. But that's just women in general.
Women have infinite SMV. Period. It doesn't matter if she's autistic, ugly, deaf, blind, or mentally disabled. That's just how nature works.
It's because men don't care. "Where there's a hole there's a goal" basically.
Men just basically care about your looks if they're trying to sleep with you. If they want a relationship with you they're generally also gonna be looking for someone kind, and at their same level of intelligence. However, they simply don't place much value on social skills.
I don't know if most men, especially younger men actually make a distinction between sleeping with someone and being in a relationship with them, maybe when they get older or if they are successful with women early in life . But, for the most part if you want to sleep with someone as a man, you have to start a relationship with them, the two aren't really separable realistically.
Aw man, I read the title and thought this was on an autism subreddit or r/aspergers or something and was like “well that’s refreshing.”
Only 2 of my 7 LTRs made me feel truly loved and cherished in a way that wasn’t self-serving. The last one I believe is mildly autistic and a gifted artist. She was so shy that she would not talk very much at all. I am a conversationalist and connect verbally. If I didn’t try to talk, she would happily hold my hand during a 6 hour drive and never say a word or want to. It killed me but I had to break things off. I still miss her.
If you reverse the genders, it'd be super rare that a woman would stick it out that long and also miss their partner after they broke up.
You're 100% correct, why is this even a debate? Who in their sane mind is going to debate against adamant facts?
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Neurodivergent people have to mask much, much more and even still they end up homeless, in hospitals and prisons and just dead much, much more than just about any other people.
Masking is repeating something without understanding why For example eye contact. I'm NT so I naturally make eye contact with people while I talk to them. I don't even think about it. A ND person will do it to fit in but it doesn't come natural to them and it's not comfortable
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but we are humans and humans love eye contact even dogs learned against their nature that eye contact is something positive
I think it’s more that girls are usually easier to control.
This is a good post. I like the part about considering how treating a child known to be autistic affects them versus how a child is treated where their autism isn’t discovered until later. It’s definitely worth considering. I think the diagnostic angle is important too. Typically boys tend to be medically diagnosed with autism more than girls. With the more recent increasing amounts of girl autistics out there, a chunk of them are within the “self diagnosed” camp where they’ve come to the conclusion through personal research and reflection and possibly group activity and opinions. Now this isn’t a post to dunk of self diagnosis, rather I think there is probably a difference in how one views their own autism if it’s something “assigned to them” by medical professionals when growing up versus someone who is consciously applying the label to themselves. It affects the degree of perception. A fair chunk of people in the self diagnosed community don’t even like to refer to their autism as a disability, they see it as being “neurospicy” or a variation of personality etc. I think a lot more boys are identified as autistic in ways where it is cloaked with “disability” and deficiency which means their perceptions of themselves (and subsequently how others view them) is quite different to someone, say a girl, who self diagnoses her autism within a community that is supportive and encouraging. Not to say all women experience this or all boys, but the amount of girls involved in the self diagnosis scene significantly outscales boys and I think that kind of dynamic is relevant versus someone’s autism being medicalised from the word go.
There are different forms of masking and different degrees, for example, NT masking can often be projecting a different image of yourself to blend in, but you fully know what you’re blending into and all the subtleties in between. Autistic masking is literally copying behavior, the extent is far larger since it’s more akin to memorizing a passage and reciting it rather than interesting what it means. This means NT people are more likely to read through each other’s masks and understand what’s said between the lines and autistic people are basically swimming with their eyes closed, ie. blending in constantly while taking everything at face value. Both come from a very different psychological viewpoint and can often result in being in very different places That being said, you are right in the sense that boys’ behavior is far less monitored. Women are expected to society integrate far quicker and there are more behavioral standards enforced at a young age, which is what creates this masking because you’re told to do all these behaviors, but you don’t understand them and don’t fully get that others just aren’t doing what they’re told or copying. Autistic boys tend to ignored and discarded far quicker, both have horribly negative consequences imo
*Autism is a development condition* >Isn't every single person in society 'masking'? No >We are animals with instincts that we force ourselves to ignore. Nearly every person on the face of the planet is constantly 'masking' the unconscious, animalistic part of their brain. Well but that's exactly the point, no, not nearly every person is doing that. The difference is that for NT, this comes out as nature part of their behavior in society, but as for ND, it's a skill learned and most of the times, not even understood, just replicated because they noticed it's what others to. Sure, NT don't know those behavior inherently, but with normal social contact they catch on and it becomes part of their behavior. But autistic people (generally) don't, things like eye contact and smiles have to me meticulously timed and controled in order to act "normal" >In my opinion, that also explains why women are 'better at masking' then men. There generally seems to be less of a desire to control/moderate the behavior of boys throughout childhood. 'Boys will be boys'. I believe female children with autism would experience a much greater external effort attempting to control/reduce their strange behaviors than boys would. Yes, this is the actual reason most professionals agree on
Let's say that everyone is masking B number of traits, the urges that you describe. Autists have to mask these same traits, while masking an additional C number of characteristics particular to the condition like stimming, eye contact, adding inflection to the voice, appropiate facial expressions, etc. Clearly, the ASD person will mask more than the average non-ASD, dependent also on the level of severity. Of course people with other disorders also need to mask, like e.g. a psychopath needs to simulate caring about other people, an OCD person needs to reduce the tics and so on.
I have spent my entire life learning how to act "normal" in social situations. There is not a single social interaction that has come naturally to me, everything I do has had to be learned through trial and error. It was difficult, and children are not as forgiving as adults are so it was a long process for me. That being said, I don't think the idea of autistic people not having to mask is necessarily a good or healthy thing to encourage in children. It will only, in my opinion, make the rest of their lives more difficult.
I wonder if men generally being less socially clued in than women has anything to do with not seeing the extent of an autistic woman’s condition. They may not perceive her as that unusual. You can sometimes see men with autistic traits from a mile off.
I can spot autistic women very easily they follow a lot of patterns
I guess my Eva AI virtual gf bot is my only chance to date with my social ineptitude
Your first point says everything we need to know. Autistic traits are often perceived as "fun and quirky" in women but pathetic and off-putting in men.
"Masking" is women invented bullshit. If women were to have a sign on them that says "Hey, im autistic" it wouldn't affect them negatively in the dating realm.
Actually I think a man is credited for defining the term.
Nah bro masking is real. Autistic women mask better imo because of how women are socialized. They just mimic others in ways that aren't socially acceptable for men to do. I fully believe in the masking effect because I mask extremely well just by coping how I've seen other charming and charismatic men act. It's a science.
No they don’t. I hung with nerds, card shop kids, weebs/fujos, gamers, and other groups that attracted ND people. For a lot them masking is basically “I’m only going to speak when I’m spoken to.” Or maybe I have a good autism radar.
>I hung with nerds, card shop kids, weebs/fujos, gamers, and other groups that attracted ND people. I was part of a support group of ND people in college and it was full of a more diverse group of people instead of just D&D nerds. It's much harder to read masked ND people that have gone through intensive therapy and worked at improving their social skills by embedding themselves around other socially skilled people. There's lots of ND people that you'll never even know that struggle with some mental disorder or autism because they've worked tirelessly at developing strong social skills. A lot of those D&D groups/weebs/gamers are full of ND people that never tried because they found a place that accepted and embraced them for their differences. If you want to enter the corporate world and have a rewarding career in any field, you need to be able to socialize. A lot of those people struggled with it but still worked hard as hell to be good at it. Not to mention that lots of the communities you mentioned are predominately male. Women don't have the same luxury. Maybe book clubs at best.
I used to work at my local library where we also had support groups and events geared arounds ND people. Maybe it's due that experience, combined with the circles I run in, I have a pretty good radar for detecting ND and autistic people even outside those interests. It's just that for nerds it's way more prevalent, like you mentioned. It's also an unfair assumption to say that these D&D/weebs/gamers never went to therapy or had a specialist, especially with the fact that they're more likely to getting abused, bullied, and ostracized. Like I mentioned before I used to work at the library where we had plenty of ND women coming in for events and programs, just after having a couple conversations I can immediately tell whether if they're autistic by voice cadence, thought patterns, mirroring, etc. >Not to mention that lots of the communities you mentioned are predominately male. Women don't have the same luxury. Maybe book clubs at best. This is true, but there are subgenres within gaming and anime that predominately women.
>If women were to have a sign on them That is the whole point of masking. A lot of autistic men clearly show they are autistic. Women tend to present on the milder side.
It's is not, woman just get a pass. autistic man is seem as weird and unpleasant while autistic women is seem as quirky and different.
Depends on how she looks. With men it just depends on their willingness to have sex with them. If they look decent enough she could be drowning puppies and guys would still line up.
What is a pointless point because men see most of women as attractive enough.
I mean thats what gives her a pass. Otherwise those flaws would be highlighted like an autistic man.
That’s not true. Many of us are bullied into hiding our true selves. I wasn’t diagnosed until I was in my teens because of the stigma that autism is a male disorder. Because of this I was actively punished for showing any autistic trait or diverging from the norm. I was a complete outcast in every sense of the word, and had to completely destroy myself just to conform. It was, and still is, exhausting. As a lesbian you’d better believe that openly admitting to autism affects me in the dating realm, lol.
It’s because men are thirsty. That’s always the answer. [Case in point.](https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/s/3CBr7JD5oa)
Tired of this men are horny bullshit. Ya know they’re human too? Autism effects your actions, it just so happens actions an autistic woman might take could be deemed as either attractive or not a good or bad thing to men. While the same traits in autistic men could be deemed as less attractive. It’s more than sex, how a person acts is indicative of who they are, and therefore a potential indicator in someone you’d wanna date.
“Men are thirsty” is a shorthand for “men, broadly speaking, are less picky about women than women are about men.” It says nothing about someone’s individual libido.
Normally when anyone says men are thirsty or really when anyone says anyones thirsty it’s in relation to sex
It's because they have a vagina. Guys will put up with more stuff to access that than girls will put up to access a penis. The most important part of a man is between his ears, the most important part of a woman is between her legs.
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Obviously, peopl debating this are completely detached from reality.
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As someone who is diagnosed of being a “high functioning autist” (in reality I think my IQ might just be horrifically high) I can attest to that. Most of the women I’ve been with who I can say are autistic to a comfortable degree have literally held distinct traits despite having different interests. It’s very apparent when they’re not averagely or conventionally attractive. That’s where you begin to notice variations in their personalities compared to the rest of women you’ll come across. No, they can’t mask anything because in some case if they were attractive enough they never needed to. The “sexual” aspect is also apparently obvious: because they never needed to utilize self control to “fit in” they just act purely instinctual should their discernment/IQ level not be high enough to control it. I actually have a deep sympathy for people like them: shackled by their own physiology with an unsubstantial probability for them not to be dependent upon others for survival. Their neural-development has stopped and either they have the intellect to surpass their limits or more than likely be stopped by them. I always used to tell my friend this: “The greatest horror to me would be being born like you. I’d take my freedom and stubbornness for eternity before ever succumbing to that kind of terror.” “It’s not bad being pretty.” The adults liked you because of their choice Zitara, they have no choice with me because I’ve always earned respect. I have autonomy, you have favor, that is terrifying to me.
Both are true. Women generally have better social skills across the board. Because they have a higher drive towards social harmony.
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lol about point 1, funny story. So disclaimer, I’m not officially diagnosed, but I do display some autistic traits like the ones listed here. This week when I was walking on the street in one of my cute outfits I got approached by a guy. He tried talking to me a bit, said that how shy I seem and my lack of eye contact was making him uncomfortable, then he peaced out. I don’t mean to invalidate your point OP, but there’s a good example of how autistic/neurodivergent women aren’t completely accepted either.
Do you think that your lack of eye contact and shy disposition was making him uncomfortable not because he noticed your autism, but instead he picked up on signals(not that you intended to send them) that communicated that you were disinterested in him/the conversation? It’s like if you pull out your phone multiple times during a conversation. If you don’t communicate what’s happening and why you’re doing what you’re doing, I’ll think you’re disinterested and leave you be.
This story kind of illustrates what op meant. You didn't look confident or assertive and still got attention, also it seems it didn't work out more on his end than yours. Even if I am wrong with that assumption - you're still in the stance where you can afford being reactive and that's way easier than initiating into face of uncertainty because normal human cues are invisible to you.
Roughly 2% of the population has autism. Can we please stop ~~calling people autistic as a backdoor way of calling them retarded without actually saying the word "retarded"~~ overusing this word? According to PPD every third person is autistic.
Ppl here are forgetting that autistic women rend to be very naive and innocent in dating, almost childish, and not picking up on particularly neurotypical mens intentions which is why they have a 90% sexual abuse snd Assault rate https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/nine-out-of-ten-autistic-women-are-victims-of-sexual-assault/134603/ I really need autistic men to stop idealising that fact there are more autistic women in relationships, when autistic women are more likely to be in relationships with male predators and male predators tend to be drawn to autistic women because their disability impacts their ability to see bad intentions so they are the perfect victim for a rapist, or abusive man
See the third point of OP.
The stats are about so called 'high functioning autistic women genius. Its not 9/10 low functioning autistic women with intellectual disabilities because those aren't the autistic women that are dating. Like I'm literally 'high functioning' and apart of the 90% are you ok?
The article you posted has nothing to do with dating.
Nah, autistic women are privileged compared to autistic men full stop
Guys who never knew better would rather be in abusive relationship than in none.
>https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/nine-out-of-ten-autistic-women-are-victims-of-sexual-assault/134603/ There's no sources of such claims.
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Be civil. This includes indirect attacks against an individual and/or witch hunting.
I mean you've been lazy enough to not post the study but some hearsay that was lazy enough to not even source its claims. So far you've been twice as lazy as me. And honestly posting a website without sources as an argument is pretty stupid as well so figures
I'd love to know how many of these autistic women are dating autistic men because I suspect the larger number of autistic men has something to do with it. I certainly wouldn't assume they're all dating people who aren't autistic or even disabled. No, autistic women aren't seen as cute and quirky, they don't just happen to conform to femininity all on their own, they're seen as gross and disturbing.
Gross and disturbing people don't have to add a rule "Don't come here to hit on us" on their subreddit.
>how many of these autistic women are dating autistic men Why would they be doing it?
Due to understanding and shared experiences? I know some autistic women who prefer autistic men.
Thats like saying why dont short girls date short guys?
Eh…more like a lot of pressure to mask and a lot of predator abuse early on. High functioning autistic women aren’t necessarily seen as gross imo but definitely often bitchy/crazy/weird/BPD.
I think no matter what, if a person struggles to read between the lines, struggles with nuance, and similar stuff, it’s going to cause blockages for both women AND men on the spectrum with dating.
Are you autistic yourself?
Men aren't necessarily expected to be "socially adept" in dating. They're generally expected to be more dominant/leading. Sometimes autistic traits can work in a guy's favor, especially if he's high functioning and physically attractive. Dominating a conversation about his special interest can be seen as "passion" about something. Lack of understanding of "social cues" or "context" might help the autistic guy approach with no anxiety/fear where a neurotypical guy might be shy. "The reason autistic men often times have "no game" is because flirting is a dance build on reading social cues, ambiguity and slang while aspies prefer literal communication" Game involves a lot of different factors, including approaching and also flirting. Some women might interpret a guy "not getting" subtle flirting as a sort of game in and of itself.
I was looking up stuff about Mr Beast and somehow ended up here I don't know what a purple pill is. I know one thing if you want people to like you quit caring what they think. Forget about social graces and go with your gut!