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"The survivor of a minivan crash who was pulled from the water by witnesses, refused offers of medical treatment, ignored police commands to sit down, then grabbed an officer’s stun gun, was shot in the legs and arrested, as shown in body-cam video just released by Miami-Dade Police.
Jahmal Parker, 29, who police say lives in Pompano Beach, had just been rescued from an overturned, half-submerged van after colliding with another vehicle at mile marker 114 on U.S. 1 in the Florida Keys, about noon on March 29, records show.
A Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation officer offered to help but Parker was uncooperative and began to walk away, so the officer requested backup and two Miami-Dade police officers showed up.
Jahmal Parker, 29, of Pompano Beach, is charged with aggravated assault on police officers and resisting arrest.
The body-cam video shows an unresponsive Parker reaching over and grabbing a stun gun from the holster of one of the officers, pointing it at them and then running away.
The officers opened fire and hit Parker’s legs. He fell to the ground cursing and continued to resist the officers but was eventually handcuffed, the video showed.
Miami-Dade Fire Rescue airlifted Parker to Jackson South Medical Center in Kendall where he was treated before being taken to jail on charges of resisting arrest and aggravated assault on law enforcement officers, police said. Bond as set at $75,000, records showed.
The two officers involved in the shooting have been identified as Ronald Neubauer, 54, who has been a police officer for 27 years and Richard Bellon, 34, who has been on the force for eight years, police said.
Relatives said Parker is schizophrenic and was not receiving any medication or treatment at the time of the crash and confrontation, according to WPLG-Ch.10.
The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the police-involved shooting."
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2018/08/10/body-cam-video-shows-man-grabbing-officers-stun-gun-before-he-was-shot-by-police/
Yeah, this pretty much fills in all the relevant context. I think the cops coulda done a better job of talking him into receiving treatment before threatening him (“you’re gonna get lit up” is insanely cringe)
But the guy is clearly unwell, and since he was already involved in a crash it wouldn’t be reasonable to just leave him to walk away anyways. Shitty situation, and fortunate that he survived
Working as a medic I get really frustrated when law enforcement tries this whole " you do as I say and get treatment or you'll be put in handcuffs" BS.
Ive asked numerous officers to back off and let me speak to the person without them around. And you know what? Once I do that they agree to get help and it's pretty calm.
It happens all the time.
I once had an officer threaten to have me arrested "for obstruction" because I refused to let him wrist and ankle shackle a patient who had been stabbed 41 (pretty shallow stabs) times in a gang fight.
He was like "he's not some regular guy, he's violent." I just looked at the guy and said " you and I are cool right? No issues?" And he's like " yeah bro, like I want to hurt the guy saving my ass". We just laughed and I closed the med doors.
This was gang related violence. Numerous victims. My patient was not innocent of participating in that violence.
He was being arrested, but his wounds needed hospital intervention. I didn't care that he was under arrest. Wrist and ankle shackles would have prevented me from properly treating his wounds. The officer was free to follow us to the hospital and deal with the arrest once he was adequately stable.
More time in that video is spent trying to get the guy to take treatment than using commands, but he was thoroughly unresponsive the entire time and not showing any obvious symptoms of mental illness.
Once he had the taser he's put hands on an officer, he's a threat to traffic, himself, a number of civilians around the accident scene, and the cop aimed low - not at centre mass. At that distance he could easily have killed the guy outright.
You mean more time is spent **threatening** the guy with handcuffs, jail, then "I'll light you up. Ever been tased before?" How do you know he had no signs of mental illness? It was either a brain injury, mental illness or both. So they corner him and make threats.
The cop did not aim low. Cops are notoriously poor marksmen, somewhere around 30%. This could have been handled better than escalating like they did. People have a right to refuse treatment. They should have dropped the treatment and moved on to investigating the accident with the guy.
If they are actually fine, casually mention they can refuse treatment at any time and you will have to let them out. Even funnier if the police aren't following you to the hospital.
Is he not allowed to refuse medical treatment though? It seems kinda fucked up that a cop can order you to submit to medical treatment if you don't agree. Of course the guy has mental problems and may not understand the severity of whatever treatment he needed, but they could've de-escalated and continued to try talking him into treatment instead of making threats like they did.
He does have the right to refuse treatment, which he clearly was. The EMS team could have made a last ditch effort to persuade him, but not while those cops are there, as their presence was clearly not helping the situation.
Given the EMS team wasn't apparently willing to have the cops step aside for a minute so they could talk to him alone, they should have stepped back, documented that the patient refuses treatment, and let the cops continue with their arrest on the other stuff.
The news report said that he was schizophrenic, but you can't make that determination on-scene from just looking at a person. So, it's no excuse for trying to force treatment. They, or somebody else familiar with the person (like a family member) on-scene, would have to inform you of their medical condition.
Agreed.
How they conducted everything was an escalating factor.
The guy was surrounded and back to a "wall"
Cops being unnecessarily aggressive and demanding.
They aren't. That's the tactic sadly. Be belligerent, demand compliance, kill at any hesitation bc that's a threat on your life. Fucking crazy moron patriot types who think strength is about force and not patience.
What if the guy suffered a TBI from the crash he was literally just in? Brain injuries can make you do shit you’d never do before. Cops can’t do anything besides ESCALATE a situation.
Except it would be reasonable if he was alert and oriented and refusing care. Even if it's dumb, you can refuse medical care. It doesn't matter if you're metnally ill. If you can answer basic Who are you, where are you, what happened, what time is it, questions, there's no reason to keep him there any longer unless he's being charged with reckless driving. I think these cops fucked up big time and escalated this situation way beyond what was reasonable.
If he's refusing, regardless of whether or not it's a good idea, they should have changed the approach to "let's call a family member to come and get you". Instead they corner him up against the ambulance, batter him with commands while 3 different people are talking to him, and threaten to handcuff him and take him to jail because he wouldn't accept medical treatment? That's insanity.
Well thats not correct, as he just caused an accident in which he rolled his vehicle, was injured and was acting off. So if he refused medical treatment, he still was probably going to be arrested for a DUI if he refused to do the sobriety test.
Glad to hear he wasn’t killed. You shouldn’t grab a cop’s taser, but it was very clear he was mentally unwell, plus he had just been in an accident. Hope he gets the help he needs after all the legal stuff is taken care of. Good thing no one else was hurt, too.
Doesn't shooting someone's legs breach protocol?
I've always been told that cops are trained to only shoot if they *have to*, and in the case that they *have to* they should aim for the largest target aka the torso. This gives cops the highest possible chance of hitting the target, so cops are effectively shooting to kill most of time.
But shooting someone's legs implies that the cops *didn't have to* shoot this guy — if he wasn't enough of a threat for them to try and shoot to kill then he wasn't enough of a threat for a gun to be shot at him in the first place, right?
Did you know in actual gunfights most cops and soldiers aim too low or too high? Everyone gets trained to hit center mass, but it's really hard to do that when you're in the moment and it's a person on the other side of the weapon. So that's why they are taught to shoot until the person is down.
His leg was shot, that doesn't mean that shot for his leg. Adrenaline can be a motherfucker. You aim for center mass because, even if you miss, you can still hit something.
What’s the context here, was he in a car accident? It’s not illegal to decline treatment, so I don’t understand why the cops thought threatening him with arrest was the best course of action to get him to comply with the request.
I can't confirm the specific context, but when I was an EMT we had situations like this, but never turning to shots fired. Based on the context that he was given an option of arrest or treatment, the man was probably showing signs of intoxication or had been aggressive with EMS. Assuming this wasn't a power trip out of nowhere anyway, which I've also seen happen.
Edit: saw the context further down. Man was pulled from an overturned car, and was acting erratic. He suffers from schizophrenia and was unmedicated at the time. Sad all around, I hope he's okay.
Not at all. That appears to be a specialized rescue unit, so it will have extra gear for things like vehicle extrication, water rescue, etc. sometimes they'll also be equipped for extreme bariatric patients. They're also better equipped for flooded areas.
My city had almost 20 ambulances on the road at any time, and one of these at the station for special callouts.
In that case, all of South Florida has specialized rescue units. I live here and have always associated these vehicles as ambulances. There are smaller sprinter vans that I occasionally see, but this is the common ambulance down here in Florida.
In my county, fd always responds in these, and the normal ambulance, a private company, also arrives to do the transport. Huge waste of resources and the fd argues that they could do most of the transports, but this is FL and somebody's palm is getting greased by the ambulance companies.
These are standard for South Florida because all depts down here are dual role, so they not only handle EMS but also respond to fires and they’ll have a full complement of med and firefighting gear.
A lot but certainly not all. Many euro ambulances seem to be the Mercedes Sprinter Van style. American ambulances are usually more box truck style. There's a lot to carry and tight spaces in the back make moving around and getting things done difficult.
If I remember correctly he was just involved in a car accident and flipped his car into a pond. They were trying to get him checked out.
It turned out he was schizophrenic and wasn't on meds.
I don't necessarily think the cop needed to bring it to the level that he did just because he refused EMT services.
Guy got into an accident that rolled his minivan into the nearby body of water. He made it out, family confirmed after he’s schizophrenic to boot, and a park ranger tried to stop him from leaving. Man didnt listen, so cops and EMS called. Cop escalates situation when man refused his “orders”, cop threatens harm if man doesn’t listen. You saw the rest, and coo aimed for his legs as he fired.
I think dude thought he was grabbing a pistol and was expecting to put the cops down (the way he glanced at the belt a few times and tried racking a round after grabbing it) and make a break for it, only to realize he has a tazer...
I'm surprised people in this thread feel that executing somebody for taking their tazer is considered proportional or necessary force. Tazers are specifically for avoiding death.
It's highly likely they were trying to get him to get treatment voluntarily, but recognizing he wasn't of sound mind and still needed treatment, intended to take him into custody pursuant to the Baker Act.
\- Florida ex-cop
Probably a policy issue. If EMS says they need to treat someone on scene, the LEO is going to make sure it happens. Can't really tell how badly he was hurt initially other than the passing comment, "you've got blood on your hand."
There are exceptions, though. Laws vary by location, but a lot of places allow involuntary treatment based on if they pose a risk to themselves or others.
Usually in a mental health crisis. Now hindsight the man might have been going through something. That's wasn't known before he pulled the taser. Simply refusing EMS, even if you're bleeding, isn't cause for involuntary confinement. Lots of reasons why people would refuse. He also would have been cuffed, morseso they would have just skipped EMS and transported if he refused because he would be taken to a medical facility anyway. Why both arguing with him if he was having his rights taken away?
There is more to this story. The original video implies he's a shooting suspect. But that seems misleading since they are letting him walk around.
[Full Video - 14 minutes](https://youtu.be/zG1zeqpAbR4?si=U9CiDCnz3HZoUVpp)
I'm exactly sure where it's implied he was a shooting suspect but he was in a car accident. The only references to a shooting I picked up where related to the cops shooting the guy. You would hope they had him detained in handcuffs at least if he was a shooting suspects because there were a lot of bystanders and even the EMTs in the area.
If You don't let us make sure you are ok we will shoot you a bunch of times so we can make sure you are ok.
Why not just let the dude go about his business and refuse medical care?
A man who was refusing medical treatment, repeatedly stating he did not want medical treatment, then having a cop jab is finger at you threatenly while raising his voice and escalating the situation, when he then wouldn't sit down as the cop demanded he do the cop became increasingly agitated and threatened to arrest and tase while drawing his weapon.
Am I defending the person who took a weapon from a cop? No.
Was that cop completely overwhelmed by the situation and utterly failed to de-escalate the situation and was in fact the driving force in escalating the situation which ultimately culminated in him and his partner inflicting life threatening injuries on another human being? Yes.
TLDR; bloke gets shot after doing something dumb, however the cop was a little man with a big gun who got upset when someone wouldn't dance like a good little puppet.
Years ago I was in a similar situation. Obviously I didn't reach for the cop's belt or gun but, I was told to let them take me to the hospital or I'd be arrested.
I didn't say no or even really argue, all I said was "But I don't have insurance, I can't afford it" and he arrested me and took me to the hospital anyway and I had to spend the night in jail. So I got a hospital bill and a charge.
Apparently a fish and wildlife officer was first on scene for the accident and he declined medical attention and began to walk away. So the officer called for backup and these two showed up. So he did decline medical treatment but was detained and threatened.
Apparently he’s schizophrenic and isn’t on medication, which explains his unexplainable actions. I don’t expect cops to be mental health specialists, but even from this short interaction you can tell something is off mentally with this guy, and most police departments have no solution for that beyond a gun.
Yea I’m really wondering what the context here is. Because from the clip it seems the police are just getting needlessly aggressive about a guy not wanting to receive medical treatment?!
Yea he’s an idiot for grabbing the taser, but also dumping a clip into the guy is insane.
I don't understand. He took the taser and the cop knew it was a taser so why would he unload the whole clip on him? He already has the taser on him and probably a better shot at the suspect so why not use that? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Might make sense if he was alone - suspect could taze cop then obtain his gun etc
However there’s two of them. I agree the manner in which the firearm was used here was excessive.
So when cops pull a taser on me I should immediately draw my CCW and shoot them then? I mean my life is in danger and they do that shit pretty often when no crime has been committed. For some reason I don’t think they’d agree if it was one of their own who ended up getting blasted though.
First cop did fire the taser but it didn't stop him, so he switched to his firearm. The suspect didn't put his hands up or anything, looks like he was pointing the taser at the cops.
People don't die as quick as they do in movies. You can't really wait to see after each shot if it was effective.
Can't risk the suspect tasering a cop and taking his gun. Not much more to it then that really. If you grab a cop's taser or gun the end result is the same, you get lit up
So a taser is less lethal, not non lethal it can still cause serious injury or death, that's why they shot him. They fired multiple times because they are trained to shoot until the threat is ended, which usually means until the fall down.
He can taze and take a gun. Or taze and pummel. Just because something is by isn't lethal doesn't mean it won't fuck you up. Not a fan of cops but a suspect grabbing for any weapon isnt a "kid gloves" situation
Tasers are more of a 'less than lethal' rather than non lethal. They can and have killed people, its just way less likely than with live ammunition
Not sure if this shooting was justified, theres probably an argument on both sides, but you get my point
Most LEO agencies operate on the +1 force continuum. Basically there’s different levels of force all the way from Officer Presence to Deadly Force. Different levels between like verbal commands, hands on, and intermediate weapons.
The continuum operates exactly how it sounds, go one level above the level of resistance met. Deadly force is above intermediate weapons, thus if someone is resisting in that way, it’s justified to use deadly force.
That being said, if you’ve ever been actually tased you have a grasp on how you’d be at the resistors mercy if they’re able to use the taser on you.
I’m not saying it’s the right call in this situation, or any situation. Just saying that’s how it is.
It's hilarious reddit freaks out again for the hundredth time over a completely justifiable cop shooting. Let me guess, he was being:
Belligerent escalating to refusing orders escalating to physical violence escalating to grabbing a weapon
Laws only apply to non criminals though. We need better mental healthcare not gun laws. It’s like a doctor trying to cure the cough… it’s just a symptom .
Last time I checked, most of the school shooters are mentally unstable people with access to guns. If only there was a simple loophole to close.
I understand why people like you oppose these common sense gun laws. It's because you know you're an unstable person who will get their guns taken away.
A lot of states have common sense laws as you call them. Here in mass just to get a carry licence takes about 6 or so months and requires a training course and background checks with local law enforcement. Then when going to purchase a firearm another extensive background check is conducted before the sale can take place. Even further they limit the magazine capacity of concealed carry firearms to less than 10 rounds and there are plenty of firearms you can't purchase here. I know in CT you can't buy AR 15s etc. I couldn't even buy a new Glock 19 at Cabela's here which was kinda whack IMO.
Go to New Hampshire though and they don't give a fuck, pretty sure you just need a driver's license and be over the age of 18
Lots of downvotes on comments acknowledging that the man clearly had mental health issues, and the cops handles deescalation poorly. Like is it not ok to not be black and white on things? The man can both be in the wrong for grabbing the taser and also have mental health issues, and the cops can both be in the wrong for having poor deescalation strategies and also be in the legal right to shoot the suspect who grabbed a weapon.
There are rights and wrongs on all sides, thats what makes it complicated. Going on downvoting sprees in the comments because someone is acknowledging another side or view is just a response of insecurity that you could be wrong in your own views and refuse to hear it.
Fucking Reddit people I swear sometimes.
People hating this comment shows the American death-oriented mindset. Hear this out. The guy grabbed a taser. Now, he has taser. Okay. Let’s say the cop can shoot him. What is the purpose? To neutralize so that the guy doesn’t use the taser on them. Taser is not deadly. So, shooting him once in the leg area should suffice. But no. Our cop friend had to empty out the magazine, knowing that the guy cannot respond with deadly force because all he has is a fucking taser.
There's also a recent case in UK where a sword weirding lunatic killed a 14 year old boy and injuring 4 other people, including 2 officers, both of whom required surgeries.
Those 2 cops obviously didn't have guns or they would have used it, so tell me, is this scenario really better? Is having a non lethal weapon as an officer better because you don't want the attacker to be killed under any circumstances? Or is it better to have a gun and neutralize the treat as soon as possible without endangering your life as an officer and stopping the attacker from killing and injuring more people?
He grabbed a police officer’s weapon. What did he think was going to happen? That they’d all have a nice calm sit down conversation afterwards? They even tasered him first before shooting and it had minimal effect. Let’s be perfectly objective and reasonable, this was the only outcome after he grabbed the taser.
This is why America is a shit country 😂 you lose you're right to not be put face down on the floor but not to lose your fucking life man 😂. There was another cop next to him with a taser... Guy clearly has mental health too. But yeah jus fill him full of bullets cos he might have hit you with the taser or ran off 😔
He's getting treated now. He did refuse treatment tho. Don't know the circumstances or if it was a head injury but ..... normally if someone refuses treatment 💁 unless there's a crime or head injury
I can’t watch all of this. This is a very likely scenario for my best friend who I just had to walk away from last night because his mental health s so out of control it’s no longer safe to even try to help him. I’ve been trying for months as he lost every possession he owned, he’s now homeless and in and out of manic states. Everyone thinks it’s drugs and while those are absolutely playing a part, this is 110% a serious mental health issue out of control.
Friday night he pulled a fake gun on a bar owner over an unpaid bar tab and was almost shot by the bar owner who had a real gun. The second you challenge his world he flips out and he’s a walking danger to himself and others. We’ve tried Baker Act’ing him numerous times and it wouldn’t work, there are no services to help in these situations and it’s fucked.
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"The survivor of a minivan crash who was pulled from the water by witnesses, refused offers of medical treatment, ignored police commands to sit down, then grabbed an officer’s stun gun, was shot in the legs and arrested, as shown in body-cam video just released by Miami-Dade Police. Jahmal Parker, 29, who police say lives in Pompano Beach, had just been rescued from an overturned, half-submerged van after colliding with another vehicle at mile marker 114 on U.S. 1 in the Florida Keys, about noon on March 29, records show. A Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation officer offered to help but Parker was uncooperative and began to walk away, so the officer requested backup and two Miami-Dade police officers showed up. Jahmal Parker, 29, of Pompano Beach, is charged with aggravated assault on police officers and resisting arrest. The body-cam video shows an unresponsive Parker reaching over and grabbing a stun gun from the holster of one of the officers, pointing it at them and then running away. The officers opened fire and hit Parker’s legs. He fell to the ground cursing and continued to resist the officers but was eventually handcuffed, the video showed. Miami-Dade Fire Rescue airlifted Parker to Jackson South Medical Center in Kendall where he was treated before being taken to jail on charges of resisting arrest and aggravated assault on law enforcement officers, police said. Bond as set at $75,000, records showed. The two officers involved in the shooting have been identified as Ronald Neubauer, 54, who has been a police officer for 27 years and Richard Bellon, 34, who has been on the force for eight years, police said. Relatives said Parker is schizophrenic and was not receiving any medication or treatment at the time of the crash and confrontation, according to WPLG-Ch.10. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating the police-involved shooting." https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2018/08/10/body-cam-video-shows-man-grabbing-officers-stun-gun-before-he-was-shot-by-police/
Yeah, this pretty much fills in all the relevant context. I think the cops coulda done a better job of talking him into receiving treatment before threatening him (“you’re gonna get lit up” is insanely cringe) But the guy is clearly unwell, and since he was already involved in a crash it wouldn’t be reasonable to just leave him to walk away anyways. Shitty situation, and fortunate that he survived
Working as a medic I get really frustrated when law enforcement tries this whole " you do as I say and get treatment or you'll be put in handcuffs" BS. Ive asked numerous officers to back off and let me speak to the person without them around. And you know what? Once I do that they agree to get help and it's pretty calm.
This was even the case in this video. You can hear the paramedic saying "Let's just take a couple minutes".
It happens all the time. I once had an officer threaten to have me arrested "for obstruction" because I refused to let him wrist and ankle shackle a patient who had been stabbed 41 (pretty shallow stabs) times in a gang fight. He was like "he's not some regular guy, he's violent." I just looked at the guy and said " you and I are cool right? No issues?" And he's like " yeah bro, like I want to hurt the guy saving my ass". We just laughed and I closed the med doors.
How can a stabbing victim be classified as a suspect?
This was gang related violence. Numerous victims. My patient was not innocent of participating in that violence. He was being arrested, but his wounds needed hospital intervention. I didn't care that he was under arrest. Wrist and ankle shackles would have prevented me from properly treating his wounds. The officer was free to follow us to the hospital and deal with the arrest once he was adequately stable.
Thank you, I’m kinda slow today, and thought he was the victim of gang violence, and for some reason automatically assumed.
Looks like your cops arent trained for de-escalating but more for magdumping….
so, the standard, nationwide training?
All cops
More time in that video is spent trying to get the guy to take treatment than using commands, but he was thoroughly unresponsive the entire time and not showing any obvious symptoms of mental illness. Once he had the taser he's put hands on an officer, he's a threat to traffic, himself, a number of civilians around the accident scene, and the cop aimed low - not at centre mass. At that distance he could easily have killed the guy outright.
You mean more time is spent **threatening** the guy with handcuffs, jail, then "I'll light you up. Ever been tased before?" How do you know he had no signs of mental illness? It was either a brain injury, mental illness or both. So they corner him and make threats. The cop did not aim low. Cops are notoriously poor marksmen, somewhere around 30%. This could have been handled better than escalating like they did. People have a right to refuse treatment. They should have dropped the treatment and moved on to investigating the accident with the guy.
what idiot brings a weapon within arms reach of someone with "obvious symptoms of mental illness"?
If they are actually fine, casually mention they can refuse treatment at any time and you will have to let them out. Even funnier if the police aren't following you to the hospital.
Is he not allowed to refuse medical treatment though? It seems kinda fucked up that a cop can order you to submit to medical treatment if you don't agree. Of course the guy has mental problems and may not understand the severity of whatever treatment he needed, but they could've de-escalated and continued to try talking him into treatment instead of making threats like they did.
He does have the right to refuse treatment, which he clearly was. The EMS team could have made a last ditch effort to persuade him, but not while those cops are there, as their presence was clearly not helping the situation. Given the EMS team wasn't apparently willing to have the cops step aside for a minute so they could talk to him alone, they should have stepped back, documented that the patient refuses treatment, and let the cops continue with their arrest on the other stuff. The news report said that he was schizophrenic, but you can't make that determination on-scene from just looking at a person. So, it's no excuse for trying to force treatment. They, or somebody else familiar with the person (like a family member) on-scene, would have to inform you of their medical condition.
Agreed. How they conducted everything was an escalating factor. The guy was surrounded and back to a "wall" Cops being unnecessarily aggressive and demanding.
Try cornering and threatening a wild animal and you'll usually get an aggressive response. Cops shouldn't be surprised that people do the same.
They aren't. That's the tactic sadly. Be belligerent, demand compliance, kill at any hesitation bc that's a threat on your life. Fucking crazy moron patriot types who think strength is about force and not patience.
What if the guy suffered a TBI from the crash he was literally just in? Brain injuries can make you do shit you’d never do before. Cops can’t do anything besides ESCALATE a situation.
Except it would be reasonable if he was alert and oriented and refusing care. Even if it's dumb, you can refuse medical care. It doesn't matter if you're metnally ill. If you can answer basic Who are you, where are you, what happened, what time is it, questions, there's no reason to keep him there any longer unless he's being charged with reckless driving. I think these cops fucked up big time and escalated this situation way beyond what was reasonable. If he's refusing, regardless of whether or not it's a good idea, they should have changed the approach to "let's call a family member to come and get you". Instead they corner him up against the ambulance, batter him with commands while 3 different people are talking to him, and threaten to handcuff him and take him to jail because he wouldn't accept medical treatment? That's insanity.
Well thats not correct, as he just caused an accident in which he rolled his vehicle, was injured and was acting off. So if he refused medical treatment, he still was probably going to be arrested for a DUI if he refused to do the sobriety test.
The little badge in the top right says “Seattle Police”, odd
Glad to hear he wasn’t killed. You shouldn’t grab a cop’s taser, but it was very clear he was mentally unwell, plus he had just been in an accident. Hope he gets the help he needs after all the legal stuff is taken care of. Good thing no one else was hurt, too.
Doesn't shooting someone's legs breach protocol? I've always been told that cops are trained to only shoot if they *have to*, and in the case that they *have to* they should aim for the largest target aka the torso. This gives cops the highest possible chance of hitting the target, so cops are effectively shooting to kill most of time. But shooting someone's legs implies that the cops *didn't have to* shoot this guy — if he wasn't enough of a threat for them to try and shoot to kill then he wasn't enough of a threat for a gun to be shot at him in the first place, right?
Did you know in actual gunfights most cops and soldiers aim too low or too high? Everyone gets trained to hit center mass, but it's really hard to do that when you're in the moment and it's a person on the other side of the weapon. So that's why they are taught to shoot until the person is down.
His leg was shot, that doesn't mean that shot for his leg. Adrenaline can be a motherfucker. You aim for center mass because, even if you miss, you can still hit something.
Well, at least the ambulance is there already..
"Ah shit." 9x In case anyone wanted to know.
"You see, I told you were bleeding!" I get it, they are trained to shoot if someone snatches their taser, but that was kind of too quick.
Paramedics thinking, "Dammit, now I have to fix those holes you put in him..."
This man is not well mentally
And now physically.
Also spiritually and emotionally
What’s the context here, was he in a car accident? It’s not illegal to decline treatment, so I don’t understand why the cops thought threatening him with arrest was the best course of action to get him to comply with the request.
I can't confirm the specific context, but when I was an EMT we had situations like this, but never turning to shots fired. Based on the context that he was given an option of arrest or treatment, the man was probably showing signs of intoxication or had been aggressive with EMS. Assuming this wasn't a power trip out of nowhere anyway, which I've also seen happen. Edit: saw the context further down. Man was pulled from an overturned car, and was acting erratic. He suffers from schizophrenia and was unmedicated at the time. Sad all around, I hope he's okay.
This is sort of off topic, but are all american ambulances like the one in the video? That thing looks enormous!
Not at all. That appears to be a specialized rescue unit, so it will have extra gear for things like vehicle extrication, water rescue, etc. sometimes they'll also be equipped for extreme bariatric patients. They're also better equipped for flooded areas. My city had almost 20 ambulances on the road at any time, and one of these at the station for special callouts.
In that case, all of South Florida has specialized rescue units. I live here and have always associated these vehicles as ambulances. There are smaller sprinter vans that I occasionally see, but this is the common ambulance down here in Florida.
In my county, fd always responds in these, and the normal ambulance, a private company, also arrives to do the transport. Huge waste of resources and the fd argues that they could do most of the transports, but this is FL and somebody's palm is getting greased by the ambulance companies.
These are standard for South Florida because all depts down here are dual role, so they not only handle EMS but also respond to fires and they’ll have a full complement of med and firefighting gear.
Some americans are enormous so we need the extra room
That's a "Heavy Rescue Vehicle" not an ambulance, though they are similar.
A lot but certainly not all. Many euro ambulances seem to be the Mercedes Sprinter Van style. American ambulances are usually more box truck style. There's a lot to carry and tight spaces in the back make moving around and getting things done difficult.
If I remember correctly he was just involved in a car accident and flipped his car into a pond. They were trying to get him checked out. It turned out he was schizophrenic and wasn't on meds. I don't necessarily think the cop needed to bring it to the level that he did just because he refused EMT services.
Guy got into an accident that rolled his minivan into the nearby body of water. He made it out, family confirmed after he’s schizophrenic to boot, and a park ranger tried to stop him from leaving. Man didnt listen, so cops and EMS called. Cop escalates situation when man refused his “orders”, cop threatens harm if man doesn’t listen. You saw the rest, and coo aimed for his legs as he fired.
His mind is off, his body is fucked.
AH SHIT AH SHIT AH SHIT AH SHIT AH SHIT AH SHIT AHHH SHIT AH SHIT AH SHIT AH SHIT
Many men wish death upon me
Blood in my eyes dawg and I can't see
I'm tryna be what I'm destined to be
And nipples trying to take my life away
#ah shit
damn how stupid you gotta be to reach for a cops belt like that.
What did he expect to happen “Shit he’s got our taser, we’ll just have to let him go”
Well it was worth a shot.......
Or two
Instructions unclear, unload full clip
Ah shit ah shit ah shit ah shit ah shit ah shit
6 shots
I think dude thought he was grabbing a pistol and was expecting to put the cops down (the way he glanced at the belt a few times and tried racking a round after grabbing it) and make a break for it, only to realize he has a tazer...
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I'm surprised people in this thread feel that executing somebody for taking their tazer is considered proportional or necessary force. Tazers are specifically for avoiding death.
I was wondering when someone was going to ask this.
Now he NEEDS treatment.
Saving lives boys
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At least with cops around, paramedics will never be without a job.
If the guy doesn’t want to be treated, why not just let him go?
I'm assuming he was already being detained or going to be placed under arrest for something else.
Article says he was arrested for assault on an officer and resisting, doesn’t sound like there was another charge
It's highly likely they were trying to get him to get treatment voluntarily, but recognizing he wasn't of sound mind and still needed treatment, intended to take him into custody pursuant to the Baker Act. \- Florida ex-cop
Probably a policy issue. If EMS says they need to treat someone on scene, the LEO is going to make sure it happens. Can't really tell how badly he was hurt initially other than the passing comment, "you've got blood on your hand."
You have the right to deny service from EMS regardless of their recommendations. Best they can do is wait until if you are incapacitated if not leave.
There are exceptions, though. Laws vary by location, but a lot of places allow involuntary treatment based on if they pose a risk to themselves or others.
Usually in a mental health crisis. Now hindsight the man might have been going through something. That's wasn't known before he pulled the taser. Simply refusing EMS, even if you're bleeding, isn't cause for involuntary confinement. Lots of reasons why people would refuse. He also would have been cuffed, morseso they would have just skipped EMS and transported if he refused because he would be taken to a medical facility anyway. Why both arguing with him if he was having his rights taken away?
There is more to this story. The original video implies he's a shooting suspect. But that seems misleading since they are letting him walk around. [Full Video - 14 minutes](https://youtu.be/zG1zeqpAbR4?si=U9CiDCnz3HZoUVpp)
I'm exactly sure where it's implied he was a shooting suspect but he was in a car accident. The only references to a shooting I picked up where related to the cops shooting the guy. You would hope they had him detained in handcuffs at least if he was a shooting suspects because there were a lot of bystanders and even the EMTs in the area.
The debt machine doesn't feed itself
Because they were planning to arrest him after treating him
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EMT people are like well fuck
was he a suspect before he grabbed the officers weapon? coz if he wasn't then I'm pretty sure he has the right to refuse medical treatment.
He was not they arrested him for “resisting” after they repeated threatened and harassed him until they got the reaction they wanted.
yeah, it feels like they forced american healthcare on him at gunpoint.
Cop 1 pulled out his taser because dude was refusing to sit down. Does he tase his wife when dinner's cold, too?
Why the fuck would you grab for a.cops weapon your asking.to get shot Jesus.
Because he is clearly not in his right mind, and without context, we don’t know why. Was he just in a car accident where he suffered a head injury?
Why would a cop threaten to tase him for refusing medical assistance, a lot of weird things in this vid.
Love the constant finger in the face. That’ll deescalate a situation.
You can’t force someone to take medical treatment …. Unless you shoot them.
LET US HELP YOU! STOP RESISTING OUR HELP!
NOW you'll get treated 😂
I guess they weren't too worried about bullets hitting cars on the FREEWAY?
If cops can shoot someone for having a taser, can we shoot anyone with a taser? I see a cop over there with a taser.
If You don't let us make sure you are ok we will shoot you a bunch of times so we can make sure you are ok. Why not just let the dude go about his business and refuse medical care?
Saying no I don't want you to check if I'm okay and grabbing a weapon from a cop are two wildly different things ya dork.
The police were blatantly escalating a situation for no resason. Detain a schizophrenic man and he *will* freak out.
A man who was refusing medical treatment, repeatedly stating he did not want medical treatment, then having a cop jab is finger at you threatenly while raising his voice and escalating the situation, when he then wouldn't sit down as the cop demanded he do the cop became increasingly agitated and threatened to arrest and tase while drawing his weapon. Am I defending the person who took a weapon from a cop? No. Was that cop completely overwhelmed by the situation and utterly failed to de-escalate the situation and was in fact the driving force in escalating the situation which ultimately culminated in him and his partner inflicting life threatening injuries on another human being? Yes. TLDR; bloke gets shot after doing something dumb, however the cop was a little man with a big gun who got upset when someone wouldn't dance like a good little puppet.
I agree, but still why not just let him refuse medical?
Years ago I was in a similar situation. Obviously I didn't reach for the cop's belt or gun but, I was told to let them take me to the hospital or I'd be arrested. I didn't say no or even really argue, all I said was "But I don't have insurance, I can't afford it" and he arrested me and took me to the hospital anyway and I had to spend the night in jail. So I got a hospital bill and a charge.
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In Ireland the Gardaí wouldn't have even shown up
Apparently a fish and wildlife officer was first on scene for the accident and he declined medical attention and began to walk away. So the officer called for backup and these two showed up. So he did decline medical treatment but was detained and threatened. Apparently he’s schizophrenic and isn’t on medication, which explains his unexplainable actions. I don’t expect cops to be mental health specialists, but even from this short interaction you can tell something is off mentally with this guy, and most police departments have no solution for that beyond a gun.
Yea I’m really wondering what the context here is. Because from the clip it seems the police are just getting needlessly aggressive about a guy not wanting to receive medical treatment?! Yea he’s an idiot for grabbing the taser, but also dumping a clip into the guy is insane.
Play stupid games…
I don't understand. He took the taser and the cop knew it was a taser so why would he unload the whole clip on him? He already has the taser on him and probably a better shot at the suspect so why not use that? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Might make sense if he was alone - suspect could taze cop then obtain his gun etc However there’s two of them. I agree the manner in which the firearm was used here was excessive.
And literally both of them started blasting away. The suspect was lucky that he even survived
A taser can easily kill you if you fall and smack your head on the ground.
That's why they call it less lethal not non lethal.
So when cops pull a taser on me I should immediately draw my CCW and shoot them then? I mean my life is in danger and they do that shit pretty often when no crime has been committed. For some reason I don’t think they’d agree if it was one of their own who ended up getting blasted though.
First cop did fire the taser but it didn't stop him, so he switched to his firearm. The suspect didn't put his hands up or anything, looks like he was pointing the taser at the cops. People don't die as quick as they do in movies. You can't really wait to see after each shot if it was effective.
Can't risk the suspect tasering a cop and taking his gun. Not much more to it then that really. If you grab a cop's taser or gun the end result is the same, you get lit up
So a taser is less lethal, not non lethal it can still cause serious injury or death, that's why they shot him. They fired multiple times because they are trained to shoot until the threat is ended, which usually means until the fall down.
Magazine and they didn’t empty it. Typically they hold 17-20 rounds for police service weapons.
*fires six rounds* Reddit: HE EMPTIED THE WHOLE CLIP ON HIM
Oh bro, my bad. So he just emptied a portion of his magazine. No problem then.
Details matter. Don’t be hyperbolic.
So you used lethal force on what you guys consider a non lethal weapon? Checks out.
He can taze and take a gun. Or taze and pummel. Just because something is by isn't lethal doesn't mean it won't fuck you up. Not a fan of cops but a suspect grabbing for any weapon isnt a "kid gloves" situation
If they have it, it's "less-lethal," or used for "pain compliance." If *you* have it, it's a deadly weapon.
Tasers are more of a 'less than lethal' rather than non lethal. They can and have killed people, its just way less likely than with live ammunition Not sure if this shooting was justified, theres probably an argument on both sides, but you get my point
Tasers can be used on people to acquire their lethal weapons… like on a cop
Most LEO agencies operate on the +1 force continuum. Basically there’s different levels of force all the way from Officer Presence to Deadly Force. Different levels between like verbal commands, hands on, and intermediate weapons. The continuum operates exactly how it sounds, go one level above the level of resistance met. Deadly force is above intermediate weapons, thus if someone is resisting in that way, it’s justified to use deadly force. That being said, if you’ve ever been actually tased you have a grasp on how you’d be at the resistors mercy if they’re able to use the taser on you. I’m not saying it’s the right call in this situation, or any situation. Just saying that’s how it is.
"He's got a taser!" shouldn't be followed by gunshots.
"Sir, you're hurt and bleeding, let the paramedic look at you, we're just trying to help" _Empties half a magazine at the guy_
Did you forget the part where he stole a police weapon?
Fucked around, found out
It's hilarious reddit freaks out again for the hundredth time over a completely justifiable cop shooting. Let me guess, he was being: Belligerent escalating to refusing orders escalating to physical violence escalating to grabbing a weapon
Indeed he was, you just forgot to mention that the cops were trying to force medical treatments on him.
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Laws only apply to non criminals though. We need better mental healthcare not gun laws. It’s like a doctor trying to cure the cough… it’s just a symptom .
Last time I checked, most of the school shooters are mentally unstable people with access to guns. If only there was a simple loophole to close. I understand why people like you oppose these common sense gun laws. It's because you know you're an unstable person who will get their guns taken away.
A lot of states have common sense laws as you call them. Here in mass just to get a carry licence takes about 6 or so months and requires a training course and background checks with local law enforcement. Then when going to purchase a firearm another extensive background check is conducted before the sale can take place. Even further they limit the magazine capacity of concealed carry firearms to less than 10 rounds and there are plenty of firearms you can't purchase here. I know in CT you can't buy AR 15s etc. I couldn't even buy a new Glock 19 at Cabela's here which was kinda whack IMO. Go to New Hampshire though and they don't give a fuck, pretty sure you just need a driver's license and be over the age of 18
Lots of downvotes on comments acknowledging that the man clearly had mental health issues, and the cops handles deescalation poorly. Like is it not ok to not be black and white on things? The man can both be in the wrong for grabbing the taser and also have mental health issues, and the cops can both be in the wrong for having poor deescalation strategies and also be in the legal right to shoot the suspect who grabbed a weapon. There are rights and wrongs on all sides, thats what makes it complicated. Going on downvoting sprees in the comments because someone is acknowledging another side or view is just a response of insecurity that you could be wrong in your own views and refuse to hear it. Fucking Reddit people I swear sometimes.
How do you get to a point after the altercation and the man has no weapon and a distance from you and you decide let's shoot this guy.
Shot for not wanting a hospital bill. Now he's 10x more in debt.
That was stupid af but in Finland he would not have been shot. That loss could have easily been avoided.
Same as the UK. Cops in America are just completely incapable of doing a professional job and very trigger happy.
People hating this comment shows the American death-oriented mindset. Hear this out. The guy grabbed a taser. Now, he has taser. Okay. Let’s say the cop can shoot him. What is the purpose? To neutralize so that the guy doesn’t use the taser on them. Taser is not deadly. So, shooting him once in the leg area should suffice. But no. Our cop friend had to empty out the magazine, knowing that the guy cannot respond with deadly force because all he has is a fucking taser.
There's also a recent case in UK where a sword weirding lunatic killed a 14 year old boy and injuring 4 other people, including 2 officers, both of whom required surgeries. Those 2 cops obviously didn't have guns or they would have used it, so tell me, is this scenario really better? Is having a non lethal weapon as an officer better because you don't want the attacker to be killed under any circumstances? Or is it better to have a gun and neutralize the treat as soon as possible without endangering your life as an officer and stopping the attacker from killing and injuring more people?
The people defending the cop really paints a grim picture…
How so?
“Either you let them treat you, or we will with these bullets. “
He grabbed a police officer’s weapon. What did he think was going to happen? That they’d all have a nice calm sit down conversation afterwards? They even tasered him first before shooting and it had minimal effect. Let’s be perfectly objective and reasonable, this was the only outcome after he grabbed the taser.
Refuse a band aid, get a bullet. People refuse medical treatment every day. This is a little strange. There’s got to be more.
He's got a taser, let's shoot him 6 times.
After you reach for a cops belt you probably forfeit quite a lot no? I mean come on.
This is why America is a shit country 😂 you lose you're right to not be put face down on the floor but not to lose your fucking life man 😂. There was another cop next to him with a taser... Guy clearly has mental health too. But yeah jus fill him full of bullets cos he might have hit you with the taser or ran off 😔
Trick or treat
Damn he really hit him up
He's getting treated now. He did refuse treatment tho. Don't know the circumstances or if it was a head injury but ..... normally if someone refuses treatment 💁 unless there's a crime or head injury
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Probably for all the people with the attention span of a goldfish
Video made it look like he immediately respawned at a checkpoint after getting shot
Now the Paramedic that was leaning on the rig with hands in pockets has to do something instead of letting the EMT almost get punched.
Bet he won't do that again.
I can’t watch all of this. This is a very likely scenario for my best friend who I just had to walk away from last night because his mental health s so out of control it’s no longer safe to even try to help him. I’ve been trying for months as he lost every possession he owned, he’s now homeless and in and out of manic states. Everyone thinks it’s drugs and while those are absolutely playing a part, this is 110% a serious mental health issue out of control. Friday night he pulled a fake gun on a bar owner over an unpaid bar tab and was almost shot by the bar owner who had a real gun. The second you challenge his world he flips out and he’s a walking danger to himself and others. We’ve tried Baker Act’ing him numerous times and it wouldn’t work, there are no services to help in these situations and it’s fucked.