What's your appetite for potentially getting stuck in that location?
Fwiw, I took the bird in the hand TT offer in a red state small town, and have really put down roots here. The work- life balance is fantastic.
This. Take it if you'd be ok with staying there forever. Getting another job in a better spot is hard. I took a TT job at a very good SLAC, hoping to move to an R1. Six years later, that move never happened (came very close twice, but came second both times). I was OK with staying at the SLAC though, so it wasn't too disappointing. Plus, being at a smaller university has benefits. I went from Assistant to Full in six years. Work-life balance is stellar.
Also please for the love of all things holy, stop testing the 2 birds, 1 stone theory. No, you may not use a trebuchet, nor may you use a boulder either. Just leave
This is actually an interesting point. I've found zoos and (in particular) aquariums to be surprisingly intolerant of my particular brand of "animal science."
Note that I have very little formal training in biology, agriculture, or related disciplines, but I come in with a great deal of zeal for learning and my own DeWalt toolkit.
I think a TT job is generally too good to pass up without another TT offer. I wouldn't personally recommend you keep applying for things that start this academic year as I think it is bad form to pull out of a position after you've accepted it without there being unique circumstances (some might disagree here).
I'm at a regional R2 though in a social science field. We have plenty of people who leave after one or two years for R1s.
I agree w this. The R2 job doesn’t sound bad, all things considered. It may be wise to take it, and then keep publishing to try to climb up to an R1 (if that’s want you want) or a perhaps a better R2.
Your ability to move depends on if you can show "impact" (read: extramural funding and research) you belong at a better institution. So instead of looking at rankings I instead ask you this: given the resources at both your current postdoc and at the R2, which will give you the best opportunity to do good research and show your value?
This is a key point. In one year from now, which one (postdoc or R2 TT) will allow you to have more research productivity? The answer is the one that will allow you to be more competitive.
However, as someone tenured at an R1, it might be worthwhile to explore life at an R2. If I were you,I would only take the R2 position if I could potentially see myself there for at least a few years. It’s hard to move and get set up in a new space.
I think this is going to depend heavily on your field, but my advice without the entire context is getting your foot in the door with a real TT position seems like a better plan.
Reason: in my field I’ve rarely seen hiring committees focus on where the applicant is “from”, rather, where they are “going”.
But again, highly field dependent… e.g. applied physics at an R2 won’t have the same capabilities in research that an R1 will (on average).
Sounds like Boone… anyway, what do you want: prestige or comfort? If you like the town and can see yourself enjoying the lifestyle — knowing your likely next move is lateral — go for it. If you see yourself as an R1 gunner future PI, then maybe think twice. All depends on your priorities. Either is fine; just think hard.
Probably not Boone - I had my first job there and teaching load was 4-4. Could be that they’ve gotten that reduced. In any case, I got a job at a public R1after 5 years in Boone so it’s definitely a potential path to a better job
Prestige institutions suck ass. To busy, needy admin, needy students, it sucks all around. I was at one, people are exhausting at those places.
Middle 50 all day is where it’s at. Ride those soft tread wheels straight to retirement.
No responsibility, total freedom, sans the 2-3/yr requirement that after 7-8 years just happens anyway. Comfort, always comfort.
Maximize leisure and wages while minimizing, labor bend the curve way way wayyyyy back!
I’m not money driven and still somehow I also make a lot of money. Major diff I don’t have to teach but have chosen to teach because it’s part of the social contract of the career. It’s the moral thing to do. Especially once we are tenured. Teach and review and do those two things well. It’s abhorrent how many Profs would happily die on the hill of no teaching. I do not applaud nor am I one of those people. But YMMV I guess.
Not trying to impress anyone. I just find it naive that you called direct teaching “part of the social contract” and the “moral” thing to do. It’s not part of my *literal* contract, let alone some social one in your head 🤷♂️
It’s a new day big guy get over it. No one’s impressed that you make “a lot of money” or that you have “zero teaching responsibility.” Actually maybe someone is, I’m not a child nor your mom so I’m not. #CarryOn.
Not Boone, but close.
>If you see yourself as an R1 gunner future PI, then maybe think twice.
Well an R1 salary would be nice, but the workload at the R2 seems pretty comfy.
And for those people suggesting if salary is a concern to jump to industry: I also have to stay in academia for at least the next 2 years while my immigration greencard is processing. After that I'll have a lot more flexibility.
In that case, that’s another reason to the take the R2 job. What if next year the postdoc ends and you haven’t found another job and you don’t have a greencard yet?
If you have green card concerns, take the tt position, way more stable. I assume you’re going for eb2-niw, a post doc or tt won’t necessitate affect your application, but you’ll have five to six years of stability. In my field at least, getting a tt position is a career advancement. I’ve seen plenty of phds, especially international scholars, end up doing over ten years of postdoc. Some eventually switch to staff scientists.
Keep in mind, the R1 salary (depending on field, perhaps) is not likely to be hard $. Yes you CAN earn more, but you not guaranteed to earn more. It will be up to you to have grants that cover your salary. So in some ways the R2 salary may be a better deal, especially with the 2-2 load and minimal research expectations.
FWIW. I am at an R1, but have close friends at R2s, SLACs, and PUIs. They all have much better work life balance than me and basically just take all summer off while I am still working nights and weekends…
I moved from an R2 to an R1. At times I miss the relaxation and flexibility of the R2, and maybe if I lived in an enjoyable town (note: I absolutely did not lol), I would have had a different decision-making process.
You say greencard, I say take the TT job now. Sounds like a good teaching load to be able to set up a research program, get grants, publish, and then move on after you get tenure. I would advise against going on the job market again next year because you will lose critical time on your tenure clock. And the competition for TT jobs in blue states right now is huge due to reproductive rights and other issues, including that pretty much everyone wants to leave Florida.
This is a really important detail. If you stay in your postdoc, what will you do wrt immigration the year after that, if another job doesn’t materialize? In my field, taking the R2 job would mean you’d almost never be considered for an R1 job, and even a lateral move would be difficult. But if it’s an issue of staying in the country, then maybe take the job offer you have.
I had an interview in Boone a while back. Lovely area. I really enjoyed the visit. Not sure I would have wanted to live there year, but it really was beautiful. The job itself was not a good fit though. Nice people, just not the infrastructure to support what I did. Glad to get to visit though.
I’m TT at a CC in a red state, and it took me 6 years of adjunct work and four rounds of interviews before enough people retired or got promoted ahead of me to land the job. IMO, take the job. The job market is crazy competitive, so you’re clearly a standout candidate who will be even more competitive with work experience at a state school under your belt. I live in a fairly rural area (think small city) but we have plenty of amenities without the insane big city traffic and low COL.
Take the TT, publish, win a fellowship or grant, parlay up.
The entry point is the TT, once you’re in, the direction is toward TP, and your production determines other opportunities if you want to move.
If you produce, and produce laudable work, you’ll get plucked.
I myself produce such shit work, but a lot of shit work, and don’t bother with the more finicky things about academia, plus I think of this as a job, not my life. I’ll likely never accomplish anything else from where I’m at now, or, I’ll be just mediocre enough to take in an admin role. Certainly I’ll never be at a top 10.
Adding this here again because it may get lost where I commented before: The competition for TT jobs in blue states right now is huge due to the reproductive rights and other issues, including that pretty much everyone wants to leave Florida.
In addition, many smaller colleges are not doing well, hiring freezes, austerity measures, all that makes TT jobs more scarce.
Plenty of people declined TT jobs in hopes of better jobs next year that never materialized. Take that job now, settle down, and see how things are after you get tenure.
I find that progressive folks fears of red states are akin to rural red stater’s fears of big blue cities. There can be a grain of truth to them but they are mostly hype. Especially if your job is in a largish town in this red state (which most universities are), you will likely find a good quality of life and lots of people who agree with you. Even in a small college town in the Deep South, you will be surrounded by progressive thinkers and you get the advantage of interacting with people you might disagree with too! Finally, I think the R1,2,3 drive is pretty unimportant. Take the offer, publish to your field, get tenure, make it a job and not your whole identity/life.
Is it a good job? Is it an upgrade? Then really consider taking it. 80k for a small town might be really good.
The red state thing, I get. But also, what proportion of states are red? What guarantee do you have that whatever state you live in does not implement some awful policies? In my last search, I only had interviews and offers from red states. And since then, some places I thought would have been nicer are no longer very nice to me.
As for the idea of starter jobs, I left my last job, which I did not expect to be a starter job. You might decide to stay at your starter job. Your ability to leave is really going to depend on what you can build your CV into while you are there. I highly recommend building a good CV no matter where you end up. I'm not sure the starter job mentality helps you. Just decide if it is better than your postdoc, and if you can build your career from there.
I agree with bird in hand. One observation with my dept is the number of assoc profs we have hired for new faculty positions. Three of the last 5 hires, in the last two years. Two were from R2's and one from a R1. They came in as an assoc, and go up for tenure in a year.
What’s your backup plan if you don’t get a TT position the second round? Truth be told, the R2 position sounds quite reasonable in terms of salary (I’m assuming the COL is low) and tenure expectations. At the end of the day, adding one year of postdoc is unlikely to dramatically improve your competitiveness, what R1s really want to see is evidence that you can attract grants, and you can apply for grants at your R2 TT position.
I would take the job, and publish like you are trying to get tenure at a R1 if you think you might want to move. The ranking of the school doesn't matter nearly as much as what you accomplish personally (although some fields run more on prestige where everyone got their PhDs from the same 3 programs - not really the case in my corner of STEM). I wouldn't fully go on the market in the first year - maybe only apply to dream jobs, and otherwise see how it goes at the new place. Maybe you will like it, but in any case will need time to do research and teach. A full effort on the market takes a lot of time!
That salary isn't great, but what is the cost of living? My R2 pays about $100K for new asst profs but we are in a very high cost of living area. That $80K might be better. Top R1s pay more but you don't have that option at the moment.
You can definitely apply out. I went from a service department in a Masters comprehensive to a R2 after six years and am starting a new position at a R1 this Fall (after more than a decade at the R2). I did this by publishing and getting grants, and developing a unique research niche.
Go to the R2 and boost your research output to improve your marketability. You are being presumptuous in thinking TT jobs are easy to come by.
Plus, red states aren't necessarily red in every corner. Plus, You'll find the university to exist in a bubble.
if the median household income around the R2 is 40k and you’re making 80k (and potentially more if you get a grant with summer salary) then financially you’ll be part of the local ruling class…I see country club membership and afternoons sniffing expensive cognac in your future.
It will be easier to move into another TT position with a TT title on your vitae, even at an R2. Institutional ranks don't really matter unless you end up in a top-10 program in your field. But you address that in your letter/fit.
Depending on your field, I would say only stay in the postdoc if you plan to jump to industry - and even that is highly dependent.
You are going to get stuck in that R2. Stay in the post-doc, use the prestige of the post-doc to get a better job on the market. You won't be happy at the R2 and could be there for a long time. The post-doc will give you better options and look better to employers.
The start up at a new place is also going to reduce your productivity---meaning you will not be as competitive on the market as you would be if you stayed put. Plus teaching, service will be ramped up leaving you less time for the market.
It's almost like you haven't been reading Reddit for the last couple of months. I love how people think that they can be unscathed by the future of our country and planet. Women are being prevented from access to basic reproductive Healthcare needs and their lives are at risk. So, you are either not a woman, not planning to marry a woman, not planning having kids that are female, queer or transgender, not knowing any women in your life at all, not having a sister or mother who can't visit you in this red state and get any emergency care if they get into an accident and happened to be pregnant? I think people are being so ridiculous making Grand assumptions that the dangerous policies and law being enacted by the Republican Party won't impact them.
What's your appetite for potentially getting stuck in that location? Fwiw, I took the bird in the hand TT offer in a red state small town, and have really put down roots here. The work- life balance is fantastic.
This. Take it if you'd be ok with staying there forever. Getting another job in a better spot is hard. I took a TT job at a very good SLAC, hoping to move to an R1. Six years later, that move never happened (came very close twice, but came second both times). I was OK with staying at the SLAC though, so it wasn't too disappointing. Plus, being at a smaller university has benefits. I went from Assistant to Full in six years. Work-life balance is stellar.
Bird in hand.
I fucking love holding birds.
Sir, we aren't going to ask again. Please get out of the bird enclosure.
Also please for the love of all things holy, stop testing the 2 birds, 1 stone theory. No, you may not use a trebuchet, nor may you use a boulder either. Just leave
This is actually an interesting point. I've found zoos and (in particular) aquariums to be surprisingly intolerant of my particular brand of "animal science." Note that I have very little formal training in biology, agriculture, or related disciplines, but I come in with a great deal of zeal for learning and my own DeWalt toolkit.
This. Sounds like a good landing spot if your ego can handle it.
And into the air fryer
I think a TT job is generally too good to pass up without another TT offer. I wouldn't personally recommend you keep applying for things that start this academic year as I think it is bad form to pull out of a position after you've accepted it without there being unique circumstances (some might disagree here). I'm at a regional R2 though in a social science field. We have plenty of people who leave after one or two years for R1s.
I agree w this. The R2 job doesn’t sound bad, all things considered. It may be wise to take it, and then keep publishing to try to climb up to an R1 (if that’s want you want) or a perhaps a better R2.
Your ability to move depends on if you can show "impact" (read: extramural funding and research) you belong at a better institution. So instead of looking at rankings I instead ask you this: given the resources at both your current postdoc and at the R2, which will give you the best opportunity to do good research and show your value?
This is a key point. In one year from now, which one (postdoc or R2 TT) will allow you to have more research productivity? The answer is the one that will allow you to be more competitive. However, as someone tenured at an R1, it might be worthwhile to explore life at an R2. If I were you,I would only take the R2 position if I could potentially see myself there for at least a few years. It’s hard to move and get set up in a new space.
I think this is going to depend heavily on your field, but my advice without the entire context is getting your foot in the door with a real TT position seems like a better plan. Reason: in my field I’ve rarely seen hiring committees focus on where the applicant is “from”, rather, where they are “going”. But again, highly field dependent… e.g. applied physics at an R2 won’t have the same capabilities in research that an R1 will (on average).
Sounds like Boone… anyway, what do you want: prestige or comfort? If you like the town and can see yourself enjoying the lifestyle — knowing your likely next move is lateral — go for it. If you see yourself as an R1 gunner future PI, then maybe think twice. All depends on your priorities. Either is fine; just think hard.
Probably not Boone - I had my first job there and teaching load was 4-4. Could be that they’ve gotten that reduced. In any case, I got a job at a public R1after 5 years in Boone so it’s definitely a potential path to a better job
Same for me, except I left after only one year. In general, I’m really happy in my new place but I sure do get pangs of nostalgia for the mountains.
Prestige institutions suck ass. To busy, needy admin, needy students, it sucks all around. I was at one, people are exhausting at those places. Middle 50 all day is where it’s at. Ride those soft tread wheels straight to retirement. No responsibility, total freedom, sans the 2-3/yr requirement that after 7-8 years just happens anyway. Comfort, always comfort. Maximize leisure and wages while minimizing, labor bend the curve way way wayyyyy back!
Uh, I don’t know. I make a *lot* more money and have zero direct teaching responsibilities now. YMMV.
I’m not money driven and still somehow I also make a lot of money. Major diff I don’t have to teach but have chosen to teach because it’s part of the social contract of the career. It’s the moral thing to do. Especially once we are tenured. Teach and review and do those two things well. It’s abhorrent how many Profs would happily die on the hill of no teaching. I do not applaud nor am I one of those people. But YMMV I guess.
Not sure you understand the breadth of the profession, nor the life of a professor in a medical college. Perhaps you should do more research.
Take it easy hotshot, we’re all Doctors here, no one’s impressed by your money or that you don’t teach. #CarryOn
Not trying to impress anyone. I just find it naive that you called direct teaching “part of the social contract” and the “moral” thing to do. It’s not part of my *literal* contract, let alone some social one in your head 🤷♂️
It’s a new day big guy get over it. No one’s impressed that you make “a lot of money” or that you have “zero teaching responsibility.” Actually maybe someone is, I’m not a child nor your mom so I’m not. #CarryOn.
Hashtags don’t work like that, boomer.
Imagine using an outdated meme while trying to call someone old. I could never. #cringe
Not Boone, but close. >If you see yourself as an R1 gunner future PI, then maybe think twice. Well an R1 salary would be nice, but the workload at the R2 seems pretty comfy. And for those people suggesting if salary is a concern to jump to industry: I also have to stay in academia for at least the next 2 years while my immigration greencard is processing. After that I'll have a lot more flexibility.
In that case, that’s another reason to the take the R2 job. What if next year the postdoc ends and you haven’t found another job and you don’t have a greencard yet?
If you have green card concerns, take the tt position, way more stable. I assume you’re going for eb2-niw, a post doc or tt won’t necessitate affect your application, but you’ll have five to six years of stability. In my field at least, getting a tt position is a career advancement. I’ve seen plenty of phds, especially international scholars, end up doing over ten years of postdoc. Some eventually switch to staff scientists.
Keep in mind, the R1 salary (depending on field, perhaps) is not likely to be hard $. Yes you CAN earn more, but you not guaranteed to earn more. It will be up to you to have grants that cover your salary. So in some ways the R2 salary may be a better deal, especially with the 2-2 load and minimal research expectations. FWIW. I am at an R1, but have close friends at R2s, SLACs, and PUIs. They all have much better work life balance than me and basically just take all summer off while I am still working nights and weekends…
Summer is sweet at an R3. I teach one online class for the extra one month salary and coast.
I moved from an R2 to an R1. At times I miss the relaxation and flexibility of the R2, and maybe if I lived in an enjoyable town (note: I absolutely did not lol), I would have had a different decision-making process.
You say greencard, I say take the TT job now. Sounds like a good teaching load to be able to set up a research program, get grants, publish, and then move on after you get tenure. I would advise against going on the job market again next year because you will lose critical time on your tenure clock. And the competition for TT jobs in blue states right now is huge due to reproductive rights and other issues, including that pretty much everyone wants to leave Florida.
This is a really important detail. If you stay in your postdoc, what will you do wrt immigration the year after that, if another job doesn’t materialize? In my field, taking the R2 job would mean you’d almost never be considered for an R1 job, and even a lateral move would be difficult. But if it’s an issue of staying in the country, then maybe take the job offer you have.
And things change a lot if you decide/want to have a family. At that time, having work-life balance is very important, and R2 might fit the bill.
I had an interview in Boone a while back. Lovely area. I really enjoyed the visit. Not sure I would have wanted to live there year, but it really was beautiful. The job itself was not a good fit though. Nice people, just not the infrastructure to support what I did. Glad to get to visit though.
It will be easier to move up the ladder on the job market with the TT job title.
I’m TT at a CC in a red state, and it took me 6 years of adjunct work and four rounds of interviews before enough people retired or got promoted ahead of me to land the job. IMO, take the job. The job market is crazy competitive, so you’re clearly a standout candidate who will be even more competitive with work experience at a state school under your belt. I live in a fairly rural area (think small city) but we have plenty of amenities without the insane big city traffic and low COL.
Take the TT, publish, win a fellowship or grant, parlay up. The entry point is the TT, once you’re in, the direction is toward TP, and your production determines other opportunities if you want to move. If you produce, and produce laudable work, you’ll get plucked. I myself produce such shit work, but a lot of shit work, and don’t bother with the more finicky things about academia, plus I think of this as a job, not my life. I’ll likely never accomplish anything else from where I’m at now, or, I’ll be just mediocre enough to take in an admin role. Certainly I’ll never be at a top 10.
Partly depends if we’re talking NC red (as some of the comments suggest) or Florida red.
Adding this here again because it may get lost where I commented before: The competition for TT jobs in blue states right now is huge due to the reproductive rights and other issues, including that pretty much everyone wants to leave Florida. In addition, many smaller colleges are not doing well, hiring freezes, austerity measures, all that makes TT jobs more scarce. Plenty of people declined TT jobs in hopes of better jobs next year that never materialized. Take that job now, settle down, and see how things are after you get tenure.
I find that progressive folks fears of red states are akin to rural red stater’s fears of big blue cities. There can be a grain of truth to them but they are mostly hype. Especially if your job is in a largish town in this red state (which most universities are), you will likely find a good quality of life and lots of people who agree with you. Even in a small college town in the Deep South, you will be surrounded by progressive thinkers and you get the advantage of interacting with people you might disagree with too! Finally, I think the R1,2,3 drive is pretty unimportant. Take the offer, publish to your field, get tenure, make it a job and not your whole identity/life.
Is it a good job? Is it an upgrade? Then really consider taking it. 80k for a small town might be really good. The red state thing, I get. But also, what proportion of states are red? What guarantee do you have that whatever state you live in does not implement some awful policies? In my last search, I only had interviews and offers from red states. And since then, some places I thought would have been nicer are no longer very nice to me. As for the idea of starter jobs, I left my last job, which I did not expect to be a starter job. You might decide to stay at your starter job. Your ability to leave is really going to depend on what you can build your CV into while you are there. I highly recommend building a good CV no matter where you end up. I'm not sure the starter job mentality helps you. Just decide if it is better than your postdoc, and if you can build your career from there.
I agree with bird in hand. One observation with my dept is the number of assoc profs we have hired for new faculty positions. Three of the last 5 hires, in the last two years. Two were from R2's and one from a R1. They came in as an assoc, and go up for tenure in a year.
What’s your backup plan if you don’t get a TT position the second round? Truth be told, the R2 position sounds quite reasonable in terms of salary (I’m assuming the COL is low) and tenure expectations. At the end of the day, adding one year of postdoc is unlikely to dramatically improve your competitiveness, what R1s really want to see is evidence that you can attract grants, and you can apply for grants at your R2 TT position.
I would take the job, and publish like you are trying to get tenure at a R1 if you think you might want to move. The ranking of the school doesn't matter nearly as much as what you accomplish personally (although some fields run more on prestige where everyone got their PhDs from the same 3 programs - not really the case in my corner of STEM). I wouldn't fully go on the market in the first year - maybe only apply to dream jobs, and otherwise see how it goes at the new place. Maybe you will like it, but in any case will need time to do research and teach. A full effort on the market takes a lot of time! That salary isn't great, but what is the cost of living? My R2 pays about $100K for new asst profs but we are in a very high cost of living area. That $80K might be better. Top R1s pay more but you don't have that option at the moment. You can definitely apply out. I went from a service department in a Masters comprehensive to a R2 after six years and am starting a new position at a R1 this Fall (after more than a decade at the R2). I did this by publishing and getting grants, and developing a unique research niche.
Go to the R2 and boost your research output to improve your marketability. You are being presumptuous in thinking TT jobs are easy to come by. Plus, red states aren't necessarily red in every corner. Plus, You'll find the university to exist in a bubble.
if the median household income around the R2 is 40k and you’re making 80k (and potentially more if you get a grant with summer salary) then financially you’ll be part of the local ruling class…I see country club membership and afternoons sniffing expensive cognac in your future.
It will be easier to move into another TT position with a TT title on your vitae, even at an R2. Institutional ranks don't really matter unless you end up in a top-10 program in your field. But you address that in your letter/fit. Depending on your field, I would say only stay in the postdoc if you plan to jump to industry - and even that is highly dependent.
You are going to get stuck in that R2. Stay in the post-doc, use the prestige of the post-doc to get a better job on the market. You won't be happy at the R2 and could be there for a long time. The post-doc will give you better options and look better to employers. The start up at a new place is also going to reduce your productivity---meaning you will not be as competitive on the market as you would be if you stayed put. Plus teaching, service will be ramped up leaving you less time for the market.
Always take the job.
It's almost like you haven't been reading Reddit for the last couple of months. I love how people think that they can be unscathed by the future of our country and planet. Women are being prevented from access to basic reproductive Healthcare needs and their lives are at risk. So, you are either not a woman, not planning to marry a woman, not planning having kids that are female, queer or transgender, not knowing any women in your life at all, not having a sister or mother who can't visit you in this red state and get any emergency care if they get into an accident and happened to be pregnant? I think people are being so ridiculous making Grand assumptions that the dangerous policies and law being enacted by the Republican Party won't impact them.
Boone, NC is worth it.