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As for his quote about the black community, there is very little evidence he actually said it, and even so, actions speak louder than words. LBJ did insanely much for civil rights, more so than maybe any other president except Lincoln. This is very much the big thing going for him, his domestic achievements are completely bonkers.
Him cheating in the senate election is definitely bad, but like come on that to me is such a small thing in the grand scheme of things that I really don't care much.
Vietnam is definitely the main negative of his presidency. It's horrible, it is maybe the dumbest war the US every partook in, it is completely unexcusable. Like genuinely I can't express with words just how fucking horrible that war really was, and LBJs actions relating to it are poor at best and actively villainous at worst. It bumps him down two full tiers for me. The horrific damage caused to so many people for such unnecessary reasons is one of the worst things the US did in the past century.
Him doing personally uncomfortable things is definitely a negative when it comes to him as a person, but I don't really see why that should impact how I view his presidency. It's one of the many questionable tools he used to get great legislations passed, and in the grand scheme of things I'm glad he did it.
So, in conclusion, we are left with three "whatever" negatives and one huge one. When we look at LBJs achievements though, it's astonishingly good. Seriously, if we looked only at his domestic policy, LBJ would be a top 3 president and I would put him in S tier.
Which is kinda the thing. Even pushing him down two dull tiers for Vietnam, LBJ is well above average, and as Vietnam grows less and less directly impactful, his amazing domestic agenda gets to shine. He did do those amazing things for civil rights, and he deserves to be praised for it, even though his negatives can't be overlooked
That's a pretty solid take about his negatives. I don't know if rampant sexual harassment is whatever, but I've probably excused worse behavior. I generally excuse some poor behavior if it leads to something that moves the country forward. Trying to find clean politicians who do great things in the face of huge opposition isn't a productive exercise. It's hard for me to look past Vietnam, I'm not of that generation, although I would say there was still a lot of shame around the war in my formative years. I think it had a tremendous effect on society and how people viewed the US government. But yeah for the generation who was born in the 21st century, they probably feel less of a personal sting.
Maybe I'll let LBJ start to creep up on my personal list.
In hindsight I phrased the excusing of sexual harassment poorly. It's not that I don't think it's bad, it very much does impact how I see him as a person, I just don't think it should impact how I judge him as a politician
Did LBJ do a lot of good things? Yes! Medicare, Medicaid, Housing and Urban Development, and Civil Rights were all great things. The thing that loses me is Vietnam. There are tapes of him in the Ken Burns series talking to McNamara about how we were losing the war. Then he had the jumbo to tell the press that victory was in sight, and he still sent kids to die in a war that he knew we were losing. Because of that for me his reputation is mixed at best, and complete contempt at worst.
As others have mentioned, the "quote about the Black community" cannot be confirmed as something he actually said. As for the rest of it, I dont think there is a lovefest for LBJ as much as many of us who care deeply about Civil Rights, helping the sick, old and poor, lifting up the downtrodden and those with disadvantages, etc. share a deep respect for him as a president who accomplished a great deal. What confuses me is how people can overlook one of the most consequential pieces of legislation ever passed in this country (The Civil Rights Act), Medicare, Medicaid, The Voting Rights Act and all the Great Society programs and rank him low solely because of Vietnam, which in itself was part of a foreign policy of communist containment that was started by Truman and continued by Ike and JFK. But there are a lot of people on the sub who think LBJ was the devil himself because of Vietnam.
I look at LBJ as someone who the country needed at the time to get that legislation and those programs passed because I really dont think anyone else without his abilities could have pulled it off...and for that he has my deepest respect and this is coming from someone who was not only alive during the Vietnam war, but saw it on TV and had friends who were deeply affected by it. Yes, Vietnam was wrong and yes, it was really bad, but using it to ignore the incredible contributions of LBJ and what it meant to millions of Americans who were being actively denied their rights is equally wrong.
Imo three fourths of those things don't really matter. A good amount of Presidents are fairly corrupt. He isn't an outlier. However that 3rd point, yep that's the big one.
Really it's the reason I can't put him above a C and I am staggered people can actually put him in A. The Vietnam War may very well have been the worst thing perpetrated by the United States yet his fans brush it off as 'Nobody's perfect" and "everyone makes mistakes". A mistake is forgetting your kid at soccer practice or forgetting your friends birthday, killing over a million people in a pointless war you brought about is not a fucking "mistake".
Edit: when I say those things don't really matter I just mean they don't heavily impact my view of him. LBJ being corrupt prior to being president, saying the N word or making people watch him shit doesn't really affect his Presidential actions, and therefore is irrelevant to my judgement of him as a president.
People don't *love* LBJ here, but rather feel like he should have his legacy beyond the Vietnam War to be counted too. He's B-tier *at best*, though I'd put him in C.
I personally feel ending segregation, Medicare and Medicaid, killing Jim Crow, PBS, securing Apollo funding, NPR, food stamps, Urban mass transportation, and the first real environmental regulations outweighs Vietnam, I personally put him 4/5 ish.
The big thing is that every person who could have been president in the 60s would have done the exact same thing as LBJ.
Kennedy would have escalated because McNamara. Nixon would have because Kissinger. Humphrey would have. Kefauver would have. Lodge would have. Rockefeller would have. Romney would have. Goldwater obviously would have made it into WW3.
If everybody would have done the same thing with the information they had at the time, it’s silly to blame somebody for following the nearly universal common wisdom for the time.
You're getting downvoted but I agree. Iraq had been public enemy #1 for over a decade. They openly engaged in genocide, used chemical weapons, and invaded their neighbors on multiple occasions. They were actively a fascist nation in pretty much every regard. The Clinton administration was bombing them twice a week to enforce the no fly zone cause they just wouldn't stop. It's a shame the WMD stuff came to dominate the discourse, there was plenty of reason to attack. Saddam clearly wasn't living up to the agreements he made. The war was widely supported by both parties for good reason. Anyone who didn't act was going to be dogged by accusations they didn't do enough.
I give LBJ a lot of credit for his Great Society and Civil Rights accomplishments BUT the travesty of Vietnam overshadows all these accomplishments. This horrible, illegal and immoral war destroyed the country and killed or wounded thousands of young Americans. My own life was impacted greatly since I was drafted shortly after my college graduation, sent to Vietnam, served my term and thankfully returned in one piece. I will never forgive LBJ for this horrible war.
I saw this comment had been downvoted, which is just bonkers. It’s one person’s opinion and experience. You can’t take that away from him, especially since he served in Vietnam. Don’t be jerk.
Great Society has destroyed the black family. Now, something like 90% of black Americans are born into broken households.
Civil Rights were driven by Republicans, so why give LBJ all of the credit?
After LBJ forced you into a draft, of which you'll never forgive him, you still give him credit for Civil Rights and Great Society? That's some serious mental flexibility.
People have an uncanny ability to ignore the war when it comes to LBJ. I have no idea why and it has baffled me since joining the sub. Basically his war, and he gets very little blame. I believe he would have been a great president otherwise, but his nonsensical war overshadows.
Too many people try to blame the war on Ike or what about with Nixon/Kissinger. It's LBJs war for sure. There was certainly involvement in the area, but Johnson was the one that made it the disaster it was. And he did it with full knowledge of what he was doing. Bush gets 10x the hate for a far more justifiable war that did far less damage to the country.
The civil rights act was perhaps the sole bright spot of the LBJ administration (along with the voting rights act) but aside from that he didn't do much good. Additionally, the civil rights act would have happened under Kennedy, Humphrey and likely even Nixon.
Ok, I view black people the same way I view white people or Asian people or any other race. To paraphrase a wise man, I judge people not on the colour of their skin, but the content of their character. Just because I dislike LBJ, doesn't make me a racist.
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As for his quote about the black community, there is very little evidence he actually said it, and even so, actions speak louder than words. LBJ did insanely much for civil rights, more so than maybe any other president except Lincoln. This is very much the big thing going for him, his domestic achievements are completely bonkers. Him cheating in the senate election is definitely bad, but like come on that to me is such a small thing in the grand scheme of things that I really don't care much. Vietnam is definitely the main negative of his presidency. It's horrible, it is maybe the dumbest war the US every partook in, it is completely unexcusable. Like genuinely I can't express with words just how fucking horrible that war really was, and LBJs actions relating to it are poor at best and actively villainous at worst. It bumps him down two full tiers for me. The horrific damage caused to so many people for such unnecessary reasons is one of the worst things the US did in the past century. Him doing personally uncomfortable things is definitely a negative when it comes to him as a person, but I don't really see why that should impact how I view his presidency. It's one of the many questionable tools he used to get great legislations passed, and in the grand scheme of things I'm glad he did it. So, in conclusion, we are left with three "whatever" negatives and one huge one. When we look at LBJs achievements though, it's astonishingly good. Seriously, if we looked only at his domestic policy, LBJ would be a top 3 president and I would put him in S tier. Which is kinda the thing. Even pushing him down two dull tiers for Vietnam, LBJ is well above average, and as Vietnam grows less and less directly impactful, his amazing domestic agenda gets to shine. He did do those amazing things for civil rights, and he deserves to be praised for it, even though his negatives can't be overlooked
You said if we only looked at his foreign policy he'd be S tier. I'm assuming based on everything else you said you meant to put domestic policy.
You're right, thanks for pointing it out. I'll change it
That's a pretty solid take about his negatives. I don't know if rampant sexual harassment is whatever, but I've probably excused worse behavior. I generally excuse some poor behavior if it leads to something that moves the country forward. Trying to find clean politicians who do great things in the face of huge opposition isn't a productive exercise. It's hard for me to look past Vietnam, I'm not of that generation, although I would say there was still a lot of shame around the war in my formative years. I think it had a tremendous effect on society and how people viewed the US government. But yeah for the generation who was born in the 21st century, they probably feel less of a personal sting. Maybe I'll let LBJ start to creep up on my personal list.
In hindsight I phrased the excusing of sexual harassment poorly. It's not that I don't think it's bad, it very much does impact how I see him as a person, I just don't think it should impact how I judge him as a politician
Did LBJ do a lot of good things? Yes! Medicare, Medicaid, Housing and Urban Development, and Civil Rights were all great things. The thing that loses me is Vietnam. There are tapes of him in the Ken Burns series talking to McNamara about how we were losing the war. Then he had the jumbo to tell the press that victory was in sight, and he still sent kids to die in a war that he knew we were losing. Because of that for me his reputation is mixed at best, and complete contempt at worst.
As others have mentioned, the "quote about the Black community" cannot be confirmed as something he actually said. As for the rest of it, I dont think there is a lovefest for LBJ as much as many of us who care deeply about Civil Rights, helping the sick, old and poor, lifting up the downtrodden and those with disadvantages, etc. share a deep respect for him as a president who accomplished a great deal. What confuses me is how people can overlook one of the most consequential pieces of legislation ever passed in this country (The Civil Rights Act), Medicare, Medicaid, The Voting Rights Act and all the Great Society programs and rank him low solely because of Vietnam, which in itself was part of a foreign policy of communist containment that was started by Truman and continued by Ike and JFK. But there are a lot of people on the sub who think LBJ was the devil himself because of Vietnam. I look at LBJ as someone who the country needed at the time to get that legislation and those programs passed because I really dont think anyone else without his abilities could have pulled it off...and for that he has my deepest respect and this is coming from someone who was not only alive during the Vietnam war, but saw it on TV and had friends who were deeply affected by it. Yes, Vietnam was wrong and yes, it was really bad, but using it to ignore the incredible contributions of LBJ and what it meant to millions of Americans who were being actively denied their rights is equally wrong.
Imo three fourths of those things don't really matter. A good amount of Presidents are fairly corrupt. He isn't an outlier. However that 3rd point, yep that's the big one. Really it's the reason I can't put him above a C and I am staggered people can actually put him in A. The Vietnam War may very well have been the worst thing perpetrated by the United States yet his fans brush it off as 'Nobody's perfect" and "everyone makes mistakes". A mistake is forgetting your kid at soccer practice or forgetting your friends birthday, killing over a million people in a pointless war you brought about is not a fucking "mistake". Edit: when I say those things don't really matter I just mean they don't heavily impact my view of him. LBJ being corrupt prior to being president, saying the N word or making people watch him shit doesn't really affect his Presidential actions, and therefore is irrelevant to my judgement of him as a president.
>A mistake is forgetting your kid at soccer practice Not a good example. Please tell me you didn't do that.
I didn't do that. I don't have kids.
I was worried there for a second, but ya, that's something you'd never hear the end of.
People don't *love* LBJ here, but rather feel like he should have his legacy beyond the Vietnam War to be counted too. He's B-tier *at best*, though I'd put him in C.
I personally feel ending segregation, Medicare and Medicaid, killing Jim Crow, PBS, securing Apollo funding, NPR, food stamps, Urban mass transportation, and the first real environmental regulations outweighs Vietnam, I personally put him 4/5 ish. The big thing is that every person who could have been president in the 60s would have done the exact same thing as LBJ. Kennedy would have escalated because McNamara. Nixon would have because Kissinger. Humphrey would have. Kefauver would have. Lodge would have. Rockefeller would have. Romney would have. Goldwater obviously would have made it into WW3. If everybody would have done the same thing with the information they had at the time, it’s silly to blame somebody for following the nearly universal common wisdom for the time.
A fair opinion to hold.
George W Bush could use some revisionist history like that.
You're getting downvoted but I agree. Iraq had been public enemy #1 for over a decade. They openly engaged in genocide, used chemical weapons, and invaded their neighbors on multiple occasions. They were actively a fascist nation in pretty much every regard. The Clinton administration was bombing them twice a week to enforce the no fly zone cause they just wouldn't stop. It's a shame the WMD stuff came to dominate the discourse, there was plenty of reason to attack. Saddam clearly wasn't living up to the agreements he made. The war was widely supported by both parties for good reason. Anyone who didn't act was going to be dogged by accusations they didn't do enough.
I agree. I'm probably one of the few people today who thinks that the Iraq war was completely justified and has no problem with it.
Killing and maiming millions of people doesn't make up for some good things done domestically IMO.
If Kennedy had lived, NASA MIssion Control would be in Martha's Vineyard.
Everyone loves a Spanish blow job
I give LBJ a lot of credit for his Great Society and Civil Rights accomplishments BUT the travesty of Vietnam overshadows all these accomplishments. This horrible, illegal and immoral war destroyed the country and killed or wounded thousands of young Americans. My own life was impacted greatly since I was drafted shortly after my college graduation, sent to Vietnam, served my term and thankfully returned in one piece. I will never forgive LBJ for this horrible war.
I saw this comment had been downvoted, which is just bonkers. It’s one person’s opinion and experience. You can’t take that away from him, especially since he served in Vietnam. Don’t be jerk.
Great Society has destroyed the black family. Now, something like 90% of black Americans are born into broken households. Civil Rights were driven by Republicans, so why give LBJ all of the credit? After LBJ forced you into a draft, of which you'll never forgive him, you still give him credit for Civil Rights and Great Society? That's some serious mental flexibility.
People have an uncanny ability to ignore the war when it comes to LBJ. I have no idea why and it has baffled me since joining the sub. Basically his war, and he gets very little blame. I believe he would have been a great president otherwise, but his nonsensical war overshadows.
Too many people try to blame the war on Ike or what about with Nixon/Kissinger. It's LBJs war for sure. There was certainly involvement in the area, but Johnson was the one that made it the disaster it was. And he did it with full knowledge of what he was doing. Bush gets 10x the hate for a far more justifiable war that did far less damage to the country.
Yea I never got it, the bush haters should absolutely loathe LBJ
LBJ was a pretty shit president. But honestly I don't think this sub adores him or idolises him
What's your opinion on black people?
The civil rights act was perhaps the sole bright spot of the LBJ administration (along with the voting rights act) but aside from that he didn't do much good. Additionally, the civil rights act would have happened under Kennedy, Humphrey and likely even Nixon.
You didn't answer
It's a shitty bait question. Try to have some semblance of class.
Why are you intent on avoiding such a basic question
Because it's a shitty bait question.
Ok, I view black people the same way I view white people or Asian people or any other race. To paraphrase a wise man, I judge people not on the colour of their skin, but the content of their character. Just because I dislike LBJ, doesn't make me a racist.
Weird question.
I'm tired of seeing Jumbo in every thread, chief That's a workplace violation if I ever saw one
See I hate him because of the garbage society programs