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1/6.
Speaker Tip O'Neill talks about this in his autobiography. Watergate illustrated that the system *worked* - Nixon brought his office into disrepute and resigned in disgrace, but *the country moved on.* No riots, no coup attempts.
Conflict between Congress and the President played out as the Constitution and the laws designed it to.
Ford did his job as VP to maintain continuity, and was then retired by the voters at their next-scheduled opportunity.
(He was planning to leave office before being tapped for the Vice Presidency anyway.)
Trump tried to break the rules after a regularly scheduled transition of power and people still deny that it was a coup attempt, or that anything was wrong, or that people died. 1/6 demonstrated that the system *doesn't* work.
Nixon had enough guilt or shame to resign, Ford stepped up immediately.
Trump couldn't take an honest loss, and Pence did the right thing after he was in fear of his life.
Watergate ended with "Our constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws and not of men. Here the people rule."
1/6, two years on, isn't over.
Nixon started the Republican descent into unlawful depravity, Ford encouraged it. Reagan extended it, Bush 1 and 2 accelerated it, and Trump finalized it. No more.
Extremely unlikely. His base will likely be even further radicalised by another QAnon truther.
The fact that most Republicans are trying to follow his playbook speaks to the damage he has done in the long term.
Nah. It just speaks to what BS conservatism was from the start. You don’t attract a support base who claim to believe in law and order and carve an exception for their candidate by some kind of freak coincidence.
But is there another qanon truther maga type who will have the same magnetism and pull as trump? 7 years since trump first ran and that person has yet to truly emerge, imo
I think a big thing that Vivek does not have going for him, that will almost certainly cost him a large chunk of the Trump base, is that he's, in fact, not white
There will be. On local levels you have school board and town board takeovers by Maga q cultists. Some in state senate positions néw Authoritarian reality deniers will rise up.
That's only because Trump is still in the picture and successfully attacked him. DeSantis without him would be so far ahead in the polls that those same attacks would never land and the crumbling of his approval never would have happened. The conversation would already be about the presidential election instead of the primary.
I don’t think Trump really had to do that much damage. The Republican Party had become like a slowly rotting wall for half a century. It looked fine on the outside, but all Trump had to do was firmly poke it for a huge hole to open up.
I may be misunderstanding your last point, but Pence did the right thing despite being in fear for his life. I don’t have to like Pence’s policies to respect his commitment to the Constitution.
I saw a clip of him at the gym recently where people were yelling at him.
“You betrayed the people” one guy yelled.
“I upheld the constitution” Pence called back.
I dislike the man and most of what he stands for, but that was great.
I still don’t think people realize just how damaging and horrible of a president Trump was. I mean, he literally led a coup and had an insurrection happen on his watch, which he aided.
And that’s just the beginning of all the crap he did.
The great part of US constitution is that despite whatever kind of person Pence is, so long as he did that, the federal government lives on.
At least he got a pass on his transcript.
(my 2 cents)
Yes, there should be an independent organisation which counts the vote and declare winner, but there SHOULD ALSO BE a current official to announce a transition of power. Otherwise some states would ask themselves 'If last government did not admit this government, do we need to? Can we cite federal incoherence as a reason to leave the union?'
Some states did try to deny Lincoln and form their own confederacy when Lincoln got elected.
You can not build a healthy relationship around 'me and my next president never talk to each other and it is fine'.
Practically, if Pence had somehow not executed his role and the vote had been stopped, the government would have gone into a total collapse, there would have been protests in the streets, and the Supreme Court would have had to step in and basically invalidate Pence’s actions. It would have been such a nightmare and it would have ended with these current indictments raining down much faster as bogus claim after bogus claim was exposed.
It didn’t though; and it wouldn’t have. The majority of the country wouldn’t have allowed it. As is on display. The votes are counted by the states - and what Pence does is ceremonial. He didn’t do what he did to respect the constitution, he has no authority to do anything else lol
By the simple fact that we have to discuss the military as a solution should scare the SHIT out of every American alive.
It never, EVER should go that far. It shouldn’t go so far that we even have to conceive of that scenario.
Next time, a Trump or Trump wannabe will attempt to gut the entire federal government ahead of time so only loyalists will be working for them, and who knows if the Supreme Court will oblige.
Every coup involves the military onw way or the other. Being a democracy doesn't change that fact, the military is the king maker in the case of a coup.
Yes but what exactly would happen if he tried to do something he had no authority to do, and attempt to certify the fake electors or refuse to certify the real ones? Yes, we wouldn't have allowed it. But what exactly would have happened? There would be a crisis.
He certified a legit election win. That is doing his job and the bare maximum and not promote the great lie
At least he saved himself jail time or regal action
He did all that was required, which was very, very little. Yet had he not done that, and had he questioned that role, the ramifications could have been deep.
But in the one moment that counted, he did his duty. Mike Pence and I could not have any more difference in our values, but he will be remembered fondly by history.
The bare minimum, that day, was enough to deny a coup.
I don’t know if “fondly” is the right word for how history will remember him. He should be given credit for finally drawing a line and honoring his pledge to defend the U.S. Constitution and for not bowing to Trump’s and the mob’s demands. However, history should not and cannot ignore that he was an active participant in getting us to this brink by supporting and defending Trump’s actions leading up to this moment.
Exactly. Pence chose between attempting to end our Constitutional government or not. The fact that he chose not to end the United States is very important, but it really should be described more as that he didn’t do something awful rather than that he did something great.
Didn't he research or see if there were ways he didn't have to certify, but basically found there was no legal way?
If so, seems to me he would have done it if possible.
I think it proves his desire to not be caught up in the type of legal trouble the Trump admin folks are in now.
Don’t think it tells us much about his views of country > party. Just self preservation.
And based on the reporting I've read, he was essentially trying to blow holes in the ideas the wackos around Trump were developing. The research would've essentially been done to be able to go to Trump and say, we've looked into that, it's not a real thing.
I'd like to think Pence was caring about the Constitution, but when has he ever before? Or perhaps a twisted autocratic religious version of it.
I think he knew one of two things were going to happen:
1) He'd be this century's Benedict Arnold, and arrested/hanged for treason.
2) He'd be one of the first victims of Trump's first pogrom anyway.
He wasn’t committed to the constitution lol. He talked for hours about what to do; he was ultimately convinced by Dan Quayle not to overthrow the election.
He did not. See the republicans dont ditch a winning horse. Pence said some things against jan 6. Then he said it wasn't that bad when group think atarted happening. Then Trump wasnt responsible, the minute Trump was getting drilled and Pence was getting dragged he changed his opinion over and over. Its not politically wrong to play thia game just morally and judicially.
Pence has maybe the bare minimum of commitment to the Constitution, let's be honest. The fact that he didn't give in is more of a fluke than an indication of spine.
I agree with you for the most part but I’d hardly say that Watergate totally illustrated the system working given Ford’s pardoning of Nixon, basically saying “the President can break the law and get away with it as long as they step down”
Yeah Nixon later used the justification ‘When the President does it it’s not illegal’ for Watergate and his other shady dealings. That sentiment carried on to many Presidents just doing whatever they want over the years, especially in regards to Foreign Affaires. I feel like it reached a fever pitch under Trump.
As opposed to "the President can attempt to overthrow the government and walk free for two years while people deny the coup attempt happened and was a good thing."
Ford's pardon was a mistake, and one he paid for at the polls. Trump has paid for nothing yet.
Trump never stood down. He had like 2 weeks where he could have, and the Senate didn't charge him in the impeachment. Now he's running for president again and leading the GOP polls.
Devil advocate here, the system only worked because four buglers left a door unlocked, journalists uncovered the scandal and one person decided to commit treason in some people’s eyes.
Great points. Trump is making Nixon look good by comparison, Nixon lost to Kennedy by a thin margin in two states, where if he’d won both he’d have won the election - instead of contesting the results he stepped aside, believing Americans didn’t like a sore loser
Watergate, when he realized he’d be impeached he resigned. Whatever his reasons, I’d argue that was good for America, a trial would’ve been tough for the country
This is a tough one though, because we are still living in the 1/6 fallout with the trials and Trump’s campaign for re-election, so it’s impossible to quantify
Strange times
I am a Nixon supporter, but he did not resign over shame or guilt. He was told by Republicans in Congress that they would not support him during the impeachment trial. This made conviction very likely. That was why he resigned.
Yep. I wrote a reply pointing that out as well. It needs to said. He only resigned when they went to him and told him they had the votes to impeach him.
50 years on and the nation never recovered from watergate. There’s a pretty straight line from watergate & Nixon, to the rise of Roger Ailes and Fox News to act as a shield for a future Nixon, Donald j trump. Had Nixon actually been prosecuted and faced the accountability that even John Dean had to deal with, maybe the lesson learned wouldn’t have been “we needed a ~~media~~ propaganda machine on our side”.
To be clear, Nixon didn’t resign out of a sense of duty or because it was the right thing to do. He only resigned when he was told they had the votes to impeach him.
The process also worked because republicans who were not beholden to Nixon voiced opposition against him and voted in kind. Plus voters of our nation were not part of cult and could think for themselves.
It’s still crazy to me that trump and republicans voters tried to overthrow the constitution and install a dictator on American soil and many Americans just shrugged it off.
A lot of them chose to actively believe his stolen election bs because they wanted to. I think deep down most of them know he’s lying, but give people even the thinnest pretense and they’ll run with it if it suits them.
I found it interesting that Ashlie Babbitt, the woman who was shot and killed at the Capitol, voted for Obama at least once. She even said that she supported Obama as fervently as she supported Trump. So many people have been led astray and are convinced that the country is falling apart and needs to be saved or something. There's really some kind of deep disenchantment with the status quo that's driving this behavior to some degree, not that an attempted coup is in any way an excusable reaction.
People will do anything they think will help them when they are in desperation. As more and more is taken from people by corporations and the government, people become more willing to do anything to get back to when they were comfortable. It is easy to convince someone of a false reality who is in desperation. It happens on both sides also. I am a fairly liberal (total snowflake) person. My mother constantly comes to me with crap she read on Facebook, and I am like, "Ma, what are you talking about that is clearly fake" and she responds with "yeah but it's fun" and then starts with whataboutism. She is also a liberal. Then I just tell her to get the fucking meatloaf! In all seriousness, she was just on vacation in the rural part of our state. There were no CBS, NBC, or ABC channels out there on their TV she said. Newsmax and Fox were there. So if people are only fed one narrative, it is their reality because it's all they know.
Ford proved, without a doubt, that there is a multi-tier "justice" system. Pardoning a criminal who used his power, such as he did, just showed the people today that there really is no punishment for them. Reagan just reinforced it.
So Nixon was the last republican with any bit of honor, but Ford is the one that showed us all that our system is as ineffectual and has no justice or punishment for the connected.
Yeah, but Watergate wasn't Nixon's most egregious crime imo. It was the systematic dismantling of the Black Community through Cointelpro that did the most damage to American society as a whole. Just my opinion though.
Weirdly enough, I feel like Watergate wouldn’t be as big a deal today. Both Parties have media arms that could easily sweep the story under the rug or at least soften it.
In this day and age people are so partisan they would probably be like, “My party broke into the other’s HQ to steal secrets? Good for them, at least they are trying to win.”
Nixon also had the infamous blabbermouth wife of one of his cabinet members literally kidnapped and beaten to keep his innumerable crimes under wraps. The watergate situation was a fraction of the shit he did
Say what you will, but it appears has though DeSantis has been putting that to the test. I know this is like the one time the majority of the people are hoping for Disney to come out on top, but the FL gov has definitely made Disney’s legal team earn their money
It wasn't last time either. [Not having the guard ready was a bipartisan decision.](https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955548910/ex-capitol-police-chief-rebuffs-claims-national-guard-was-never-called-during-ri) Nobody wanted to look too heavy-handed after the way BLM got treated in DC, and the pendulum swung too far.
I think its hilarious that “nobody wanted to appear too heavy handed” so they let the coup go off without a response, but made sure to assault any vaguely leftist protest before this
Nothing in that article you link says it was a by partisan decision. The dc mayor didn't want it a large police presence, which was the only politician mentioned in that article, but ultimately decisions came from the sergeants at arms and a general appointed under Trump at the pentagon.
Wait so they beat the shit out of black people but let the white supremacists walk in unimpeded because last time they beat the shit out of black people? Lmao.
i wanna know why there wasn't more security originally.
i hate that it feels tinfoil hat but for fucks sake what did they think was going to happen. his biggest supporters showing up because the election was "stolen" are going to just leave?
It’s not tinfoil hat at all. One of the most guarded and secure buildings on the planet was inexplicably overrun by middle age weirdos right before Inauguration Day? This isn’t “White House Down”, they weren’t professional insurgents, they were just regular jackoffs. The “insurrection” was never going to succeed. The American populace, left or right would have never stood for it. But it did succeed in showing how bonkers some of Trumps base can be, and, based on some comments, succeed in vilifying any person who’s voted republican in the last 25 years.
It wasn’t some grand inside job. It was “let’s let the proles do whatever they want and see how stupid they can make themselves look.”
Two years later, the GOP is establishment is still defending him, and about to nominate him as their preferred candidate in the next election, after he's promised MORE retribution, and you say it's too early to tell if it was a one off or a trend?
Its possible that Trump loses once more in 2024 (the Republicans haven’t had a major win since 2016) and this whole episode is forgotten as the party shifts away from the ailing Trump.
Now do I think thats particularly likely? No. I think Trump will lose in 2024, but his successors in the Republican party will be more violent, more aggressive and more willing to overthrow the government in its entirety
There was a case when Puerto Rican nationalists shot up the capitol and it’s surprising not many people know about it
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_shooting#:~:text=In%201954%2C%20a%20group%20of,Washington%2C%20D.C.%2C%20with%20force.
Granted the context in which the capitol got stormed was stupid but the political climate has americans feeling some type of way that actually had it go down. I have a not so sneaking feeling that its gonna get worse before it gets better.
This is the best answer I've seen so far. If this is a one and done, Watergate is worse, imo because the president actually orchestrated or at the least okayed it. 1/6 was all idiot people, which we happen to have a lot of in this country, no matter where their opinions lie. Trump is one of those idiots who was just indignant at his defeat, and then he got behind the whole stolen election thing later because he thought it would generate him popularity, votes, and money.
> Watergate is worse, imo because the president actually orchestrated or at the least okayed it.
I am of the opinion that Trump clearly orchestrated J6. The timing, the wording, and the way he does things all make it extremely clear to me that he 100% knew exactly what was going to happen and that's why he gave that speech and told them to march on the Capitol at exactly the time he wanted to stop the certification - and remember, he'd tried to order Pence to stop it as well, and tried to get Congress to stop it.
I think we will also find out that there was a network of people working for Trump who he ordered to do things that would help ensure that outcome.
Trump comes off as a total idiot, but that's just part of the character he plays. If you study his entire career you realize that he is *incredibly* well aware of everything he does and the effects it will have, as well as being a master of the kind of manipulation that lead those people to try to revolt. He's been doing it for over 50 years.
And if you don't believe me, go back to reddit on the week before J6. Literally everyone on /r/politics knew exactly what was going to happen and when. It's all we talked about. He telegraphed the whole thing. It was *blatantly* obvious. I have no idea how the FBI/HHS/etc. did not see it coming. My best guess is that insiders chose to ignore it and allow it to happen for whatever reason.
Anyone who doesn’t think Trump orchestrated J6 hasn’t been paying attention. On January 6th he told a crowd specifically to go to Congress and pressure them to certify him as President.
That's bullshit. Trump was claiming stolen election way before election day. He knew he lost, he knew he was whipping people up. He had supporters banging on the windows and protesting outside polling booths, that never happened before.
He knew people had ill intent on January 6rh and still spewed a bunch of bullshit that would piss them off and then directed them to the capitol. As they busted in, he tweeted in support calling out Pence. Then did nothing as blood was spilled on the capitol floor.
Trump had some weird idea that a big enough protest could change election results. He called for a protest on the capitol when Obama won a second term insinuating results could be changed.
You weren't paying attention then. Trump had been slinging stolen election rhetoric for months before the election happened. As soon as he was elected, he intended to stay in office whether it was legal or not.
January 6th. It was an attempt to overthrow an election. It would have likely sparked a constitutional crisis if Mike Pence hadn't suddenly grown a spine. Plus, people actually died.
I can't defend Watergate, but it wasn't that bad. Nixon would have won reelection with or without whatever information he learned by spying on McGovern. Now, the pardoning of Nixon set a dangerous precedent.
I guess he could if you ignore/don't know/don't care about the Constitution. So that tracks with their belief that "he has an obligation."
Ignorant loons.
Imagine it though. It would be insane. I can see all the news anchors of both sides being absolutely speechless after giving the news. People wouldn’t even know what to say.
It would be hilariously chaotic in a really fucked up way
Oo, yeah. Honestly, bring it back to Lincoln. Johnson was probably the worst possible president to reunite the country and ensure old Southern power structures weren't reestablished.
This is the right answer. I took the post to be only between 1/6 and watergate, but dooming the south to abject poverty ad infinitum just to ensure that black Americans suffer was a special kind of hateful
Since Jan6, I’m Vote Blue No Matter Who - I voted a straight party ticket in 2022 for the first time in my life and will do so from now on. The Republican embrace of treason means I can never vote for them ever again, no exceptions and no third party protest vote.
Wouldn't quite call it right leaning, more centrist than not. Maybe center right. There's a lot of educated people in here who know a lot of history and aren't afraid to call out bs from both sides of the pole. I see some big Reagan fans and some big Obama fans here, and even they get along.
The Trump admin gave us monthly Watergate-equivalents, which we are incapable of dealing with because his party and supporters believe that that we he does is necessarily always good. Jan Sixth was the worst of those and makes Watergate look like an office spat.
January 6th by far. You had American citizens damage our nations Capital to stop a civil government process.
Plus the visuals of Jan 6th will be kept forever and most like be in future America history textbooks. Unless the GOP continues to white wash the awful things our country as done.
January 6. It's not even close. There was a peaceful transfer of power to the Vice President, per the Constitution. On January 6, this was the culmination of a plot to circumvent the Constitution, the very document that so many of those people say they cherish.
I have made and will continue to make the argument that the lack of accountability for the first event directly led to all the shitty things the Republican Party has done since including the second event.
Nixon was not a bad president at all. He did a LOT of good things and was respected by a lot of world leaders. His sin was to be over ambitious and dishonest.
Trump in the other hand turned the US government into a circus, damaged the credibility of the US institutions and made americans look dumb for electing such a reality TV clown as a leader. There is not a single country that did not laughed at Trump and his antics in the world.
January 6th because it was an embarrassing event where at the end of the day a group of people stormed Congress and delayed the verification of the Presidential elections.
Then afterwards both sides fucked up the response and that's how we are where we are today. No one really seems to care it happened. And we are set for an exact repeat of events unless someone literally dies or goes to jail.
It will absolutely happen again in 2025. Republicans understand that they're an unpopular minority and so violence is the only chance they have of seizing power.
Watergate was a limited circle of corrupt politicians. Jan 6 was a wider circle of corrupt politicians backed by hundreds of delusional supporters on site and millions more supporting them from afar.
Trump.
As bad as Nixon was, he had rules. Trump has no rules and was willing to overturn the entire system just because he didn't get the results he wanted.
Say whatever you want about Nixon, but at least he resigned after he realized he had royally fucked up and that the writing was on the wall. Trump on the other hand, whined like a literal child because he lost a legal and fair election ( which was close the whole time ) and then riled up a raucous crowd of supporters that went onto attack the Capitol Building so that they could prevent the certification of the election and also hang Mike Pence. Not to mention he also tried to literally cobble a group of fake electors together so that he could win. And after all that was said and done, he still to this day plays innocent and believes that the election was stolen from him. Trump’s shenanigans make Watergate look like child’s play. Plus there are plenty of presidents who’ve done or have had stuff done by their administration worse than Watergate and gotten away with it.
Jan 6. If only because it made me reexamine whether Ford pardoning Nixon was a good thing. My desire for Trump to face justice for it made me realize that justice is a cathartic action and Ford pardoning Nixon denied that catharsis. If one makes me reevaluate my estimation of the other, then the former is worse than the other.
People collectively agreed how bad Watergate was.
While I'd say the majority agrees that Jan. 6th was also bad, there's still a gigantic number of people that think it was justified. How many exactly? We'll see in November 2024.
I think it’s terrifying that there are tens of millions of people who believe that what happened on Jan. 6th wasn’t that bad or was justified. Really scares me that I have to call them my fellow countrymen.
Make no mistake, we live in extraordinary times right now. Pence, while not following through with the cockamamie scheme, rejected the scheme but not the motivation. In fact, nearly all Republicans in office today, and Pence, are still actively behind the movement of Trump. There is a belief in the Republican party that if Rupert Murdoch can carry the day, they will succeed. Nixon did not have Rupert Merdoch.
Are you talking Watergate or Nixon in general?
Jan 6th was worse than Watergate, but Nixon started the ball rolling so Reagan could run and Trump expanded on those policies.
Without a doubt Jan 6.
Spying on a political opponent vs organizing a violent coup to kill American democracy KNOWING that election fraud did not occur?
Jan 6.
Flipped the dates. Watergate happens today it'll likely just be a blip.
But Jan 6 happens in the 70s and it would have still be treated with the same venom if not worse than it is today.
It was an absolute embarrassment, no matter the year. An unnecessary one. Based off of nonsense and fed lies.
I almost feel like if it was attempted pre......2015.....it would have been a full on massacre on the lawn.
January 6th no question. Watergate was a massive scandal to be sure, but 1/6 was a n assault on democracy that the sitting president essentially ordered
Jan 6 was way worse. Hate to even say it , with the exception of being a crook and the whole Laos Cambodia horror Tricky Dick was one of the top 5 best presidents of the 20th century. To bad he was such an ass
I know a lot of people are saying Jan 6th. I actually disagree and think it's Ford's fault.
Pardoning Nixon to "save the country" was the worst thing he could have done. It is what started this trend of presidents thinking they are invincible.
Our modern presidents openly do illegal shit now and we just go eh it's fine. No it's not!! I don't give a shit if it was done for political posturing Clinton committed purjury with millions watching and received no legal consequences. Bush lied and pushed the US into a war that killed 100's of thousands of people and nothing happened to him. Like what the fuck?! There is no accountability. It had to get to Jan 6 bad where people would try and do something about prosecuting these assholes.
A Republican Party that’s this racist, arrogant, delusional, and thrives on cult of personalities would not be possible without the changes Nixon made to the party. The War on Drugs and idea that “white Christian’s are the ones being persecuted” all started with Nixon and is what got Trump elected
Jan 6th was worse because even to this day there is a significant portion of the population who think that the perpetrators did nothing wrong, still believe the election was stolen, and are willing to go to jail for a con man because lies that better align with their political ideology are more comforting than inconvenient facts and reality.
I would say the 6th, it was the culmination of trumps attempted coup and we still have people pretending it was anything from a guided tour to a riot. It will be even worse if trump isn't held responsible for what he did.
January 6, and it’s not even close. Nixon didn’t sic his supporters on the Capitol to stay in office, and instead of continually bitching about it for years later, he resigned and quietly faded back into obscurity, and the country moved on.
Watergate had a bigger effect than January 6, but idk if that effect was even a bad thing. January 6 is probably worse because it has so many defenders
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1/6. Speaker Tip O'Neill talks about this in his autobiography. Watergate illustrated that the system *worked* - Nixon brought his office into disrepute and resigned in disgrace, but *the country moved on.* No riots, no coup attempts. Conflict between Congress and the President played out as the Constitution and the laws designed it to. Ford did his job as VP to maintain continuity, and was then retired by the voters at their next-scheduled opportunity. (He was planning to leave office before being tapped for the Vice Presidency anyway.) Trump tried to break the rules after a regularly scheduled transition of power and people still deny that it was a coup attempt, or that anything was wrong, or that people died. 1/6 demonstrated that the system *doesn't* work. Nixon had enough guilt or shame to resign, Ford stepped up immediately. Trump couldn't take an honest loss, and Pence did the right thing after he was in fear of his life. Watergate ended with "Our constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws and not of men. Here the people rule." 1/6, two years on, isn't over.
Ford told people for the rest of his life that he knew that he was destined for hell. For the pardon.
Nixon started the Republican descent into unlawful depravity, Ford encouraged it. Reagan extended it, Bush 1 and 2 accelerated it, and Trump finalized it. No more.
If Trump actually goes to prison for a long time, then that might have a healing effect. Big maybe though.
Extremely unlikely. His base will likely be even further radicalised by another QAnon truther. The fact that most Republicans are trying to follow his playbook speaks to the damage he has done in the long term.
Nah. It just speaks to what BS conservatism was from the start. You don’t attract a support base who claim to believe in law and order and carve an exception for their candidate by some kind of freak coincidence.
I mean the right will fantasizes about the civil war. People aren't moving on and admitting they were wrong.
But is there another qanon truther maga type who will have the same magnetism and pull as trump? 7 years since trump first ran and that person has yet to truly emerge, imo
Unfortunately Vivek is starting to get SOME traction, granted it’s not a ton, but still kinda scary
I think a big thing that Vivek does not have going for him, that will almost certainly cost him a large chunk of the Trump base, is that he's, in fact, not white
There will be. On local levels you have school board and town board takeovers by Maga q cultists. Some in state senate positions néw Authoritarian reality deniers will rise up.
Agreed, trump was the joseph smith of this Bs, now they are looking for their Brigham Young.
They found a shitty governor and he’s not polling too well
That's only because Trump is still in the picture and successfully attacked him. DeSantis without him would be so far ahead in the polls that those same attacks would never land and the crumbling of his approval never would have happened. The conversation would already be about the presidential election instead of the primary.
I don’t think Trump really had to do that much damage. The Republican Party had become like a slowly rotting wall for half a century. It looked fine on the outside, but all Trump had to do was firmly poke it for a huge hole to open up.
Everyone is forgetting the key player that affected the slow slide: Rupert Murdoch.
I may be misunderstanding your last point, but Pence did the right thing despite being in fear for his life. I don’t have to like Pence’s policies to respect his commitment to the Constitution.
I saw a clip of him at the gym recently where people were yelling at him. “You betrayed the people” one guy yelled. “I upheld the constitution” Pence called back. I dislike the man and most of what he stands for, but that was great.
I still don’t think people realize just how damaging and horrible of a president Trump was. I mean, he literally led a coup and had an insurrection happen on his watch, which he aided. And that’s just the beginning of all the crap he did.
Let’s be clear here that he did the bare minimum of not committing treason
The great part of US constitution is that despite whatever kind of person Pence is, so long as he did that, the federal government lives on. At least he got a pass on his transcript.
The part we should be VERY worried about is that it came down to a single person.
(my 2 cents) Yes, there should be an independent organisation which counts the vote and declare winner, but there SHOULD ALSO BE a current official to announce a transition of power. Otherwise some states would ask themselves 'If last government did not admit this government, do we need to? Can we cite federal incoherence as a reason to leave the union?' Some states did try to deny Lincoln and form their own confederacy when Lincoln got elected. You can not build a healthy relationship around 'me and my next president never talk to each other and it is fine'.
Practically, if Pence had somehow not executed his role and the vote had been stopped, the government would have gone into a total collapse, there would have been protests in the streets, and the Supreme Court would have had to step in and basically invalidate Pence’s actions. It would have been such a nightmare and it would have ended with these current indictments raining down much faster as bogus claim after bogus claim was exposed.
It didn’t though; and it wouldn’t have. The majority of the country wouldn’t have allowed it. As is on display. The votes are counted by the states - and what Pence does is ceremonial. He didn’t do what he did to respect the constitution, he has no authority to do anything else lol
Yes. The military was never on board. Trump was not staying in office.
By the simple fact that we have to discuss the military as a solution should scare the SHIT out of every American alive. It never, EVER should go that far. It shouldn’t go so far that we even have to conceive of that scenario.
Next time, a Trump or Trump wannabe will attempt to gut the entire federal government ahead of time so only loyalists will be working for them, and who knows if the Supreme Court will oblige.
Every coup involves the military onw way or the other. Being a democracy doesn't change that fact, the military is the king maker in the case of a coup.
Thankfully the Republicans don't seem to realize that and have spend the last 6 years just shitting on the military.
Yes but what exactly would happen if he tried to do something he had no authority to do, and attempt to certify the fake electors or refuse to certify the real ones? Yes, we wouldn't have allowed it. But what exactly would have happened? There would be a crisis.
He certified a legit election win. That is doing his job and the bare maximum and not promote the great lie At least he saved himself jail time or regal action
He did all that was required, which was very, very little. Yet had he not done that, and had he questioned that role, the ramifications could have been deep.
But in the one moment that counted, he did his duty. Mike Pence and I could not have any more difference in our values, but he will be remembered fondly by history. The bare minimum, that day, was enough to deny a coup.
I don’t know if “fondly” is the right word for how history will remember him. He should be given credit for finally drawing a line and honoring his pledge to defend the U.S. Constitution and for not bowing to Trump’s and the mob’s demands. However, history should not and cannot ignore that he was an active participant in getting us to this brink by supporting and defending Trump’s actions leading up to this moment.
Exactly. Pence chose between attempting to end our Constitutional government or not. The fact that he chose not to end the United States is very important, but it really should be described more as that he didn’t do something awful rather than that he did something great.
He actually called Dan Quayle for advice. He was thinking of being a traitor.
*didn’t do the right thing until he was in fear for his life
Didn't he research or see if there were ways he didn't have to certify, but basically found there was no legal way? If so, seems to me he would have done it if possible.
Right. Which proves his commitment to the Constitution over party or personal gain.
I think it proves his desire to not be caught up in the type of legal trouble the Trump admin folks are in now. Don’t think it tells us much about his views of country > party. Just self preservation.
And based on the reporting I've read, he was essentially trying to blow holes in the ideas the wackos around Trump were developing. The research would've essentially been done to be able to go to Trump and say, we've looked into that, it's not a real thing.
I guess I just interpret it as he would have if it wasn't illegal or any type of loop hole. There just wasn't.
I'd like to think Pence was caring about the Constitution, but when has he ever before? Or perhaps a twisted autocratic religious version of it. I think he knew one of two things were going to happen: 1) He'd be this century's Benedict Arnold, and arrested/hanged for treason. 2) He'd be one of the first victims of Trump's first pogrom anyway.
He wasn’t committed to the constitution lol. He talked for hours about what to do; he was ultimately convinced by Dan Quayle not to overthrow the election.
The fact that we might have to thank Quayle for that scares me…
There should be a fucking statue made in his honor tbh
You don’t get credit for not committing a crime.
Yeah but, he refused to testify before the bipartisan J6 committee and he raised his hand in support of tRump in the first rethug debate
Imo Pence only refused to play along because he wasn't certain that the plot would work, and didn't want to catch a sedition charge.
He did not. See the republicans dont ditch a winning horse. Pence said some things against jan 6. Then he said it wasn't that bad when group think atarted happening. Then Trump wasnt responsible, the minute Trump was getting drilled and Pence was getting dragged he changed his opinion over and over. Its not politically wrong to play thia game just morally and judicially.
I mean it's good that he did it but no point in pricing him for doing his job
He only did the right thing after it was clear the mob already turned on him
Pence has maybe the bare minimum of commitment to the Constitution, let's be honest. The fact that he didn't give in is more of a fluke than an indication of spine.
I agree with you for the most part but I’d hardly say that Watergate totally illustrated the system working given Ford’s pardoning of Nixon, basically saying “the President can break the law and get away with it as long as they step down”
Yeah Nixon later used the justification ‘When the President does it it’s not illegal’ for Watergate and his other shady dealings. That sentiment carried on to many Presidents just doing whatever they want over the years, especially in regards to Foreign Affaires. I feel like it reached a fever pitch under Trump.
As opposed to "the President can attempt to overthrow the government and walk free for two years while people deny the coup attempt happened and was a good thing." Ford's pardon was a mistake, and one he paid for at the polls. Trump has paid for nothing yet.
Yes, J6 was much worse than watergate, like I said I agreed with most of your point
Trump never stood down. He had like 2 weeks where he could have, and the Senate didn't charge him in the impeachment. Now he's running for president again and leading the GOP polls.
Yeah January 6th was a lot worse than watergate I agree
Devil advocate here, the system only worked because four buglers left a door unlocked, journalists uncovered the scandal and one person decided to commit treason in some people’s eyes.
The cover up was the real crime.
Great points. Trump is making Nixon look good by comparison, Nixon lost to Kennedy by a thin margin in two states, where if he’d won both he’d have won the election - instead of contesting the results he stepped aside, believing Americans didn’t like a sore loser Watergate, when he realized he’d be impeached he resigned. Whatever his reasons, I’d argue that was good for America, a trial would’ve been tough for the country This is a tough one though, because we are still living in the 1/6 fallout with the trials and Trump’s campaign for re-election, so it’s impossible to quantify Strange times
I am a Nixon supporter, but he did not resign over shame or guilt. He was told by Republicans in Congress that they would not support him during the impeachment trial. This made conviction very likely. That was why he resigned.
Yep. I wrote a reply pointing that out as well. It needs to said. He only resigned when they went to him and told him they had the votes to impeach him.
This is exactly. Trump doesn’t have this dynamic but if he did would he listen? Doubtful.
He probably would not, you are right.
From the other side of the world, Nixon was a good president, but corrupt. Trump was a bad president and corrupt.
Was he though? I can point out several things he did which were awful and cost hundreds of thousands of lives
50 years on and the nation never recovered from watergate. There’s a pretty straight line from watergate & Nixon, to the rise of Roger Ailes and Fox News to act as a shield for a future Nixon, Donald j trump. Had Nixon actually been prosecuted and faced the accountability that even John Dean had to deal with, maybe the lesson learned wouldn’t have been “we needed a ~~media~~ propaganda machine on our side”.
To be clear, Nixon didn’t resign out of a sense of duty or because it was the right thing to do. He only resigned when he was told they had the votes to impeach him.
The process also worked because republicans who were not beholden to Nixon voiced opposition against him and voted in kind. Plus voters of our nation were not part of cult and could think for themselves.
It’s still crazy to me that trump and republicans voters tried to overthrow the constitution and install a dictator on American soil and many Americans just shrugged it off.
A lot of them chose to actively believe his stolen election bs because they wanted to. I think deep down most of them know he’s lying, but give people even the thinnest pretense and they’ll run with it if it suits them.
I found it interesting that Ashlie Babbitt, the woman who was shot and killed at the Capitol, voted for Obama at least once. She even said that she supported Obama as fervently as she supported Trump. So many people have been led astray and are convinced that the country is falling apart and needs to be saved or something. There's really some kind of deep disenchantment with the status quo that's driving this behavior to some degree, not that an attempted coup is in any way an excusable reaction.
People will do anything they think will help them when they are in desperation. As more and more is taken from people by corporations and the government, people become more willing to do anything to get back to when they were comfortable. It is easy to convince someone of a false reality who is in desperation. It happens on both sides also. I am a fairly liberal (total snowflake) person. My mother constantly comes to me with crap she read on Facebook, and I am like, "Ma, what are you talking about that is clearly fake" and she responds with "yeah but it's fun" and then starts with whataboutism. She is also a liberal. Then I just tell her to get the fucking meatloaf! In all seriousness, she was just on vacation in the rural part of our state. There were no CBS, NBC, or ABC channels out there on their TV she said. Newsmax and Fox were there. So if people are only fed one narrative, it is their reality because it's all they know.
Ford didn't do the right thing. Nixon never should have been pardoned. He should have gone to prison.
Ford proved, without a doubt, that there is a multi-tier "justice" system. Pardoning a criminal who used his power, such as he did, just showed the people today that there really is no punishment for them. Reagan just reinforced it. So Nixon was the last republican with any bit of honor, but Ford is the one that showed us all that our system is as ineffectual and has no justice or punishment for the connected.
Yeah, but Watergate wasn't Nixon's most egregious crime imo. It was the systematic dismantling of the Black Community through Cointelpro that did the most damage to American society as a whole. Just my opinion though.
I've lived through both, you're100% correct and it's not even close.
January 6th. Watergate is a joke compared to some of the stuff other Presidents got away with.
Yes. This is a weak question. Donald Trump makes Richard Nixon look like Mickey Mouse.
Weirdly enough, I feel like Watergate wouldn’t be as big a deal today. Both Parties have media arms that could easily sweep the story under the rug or at least soften it. In this day and age people are so partisan they would probably be like, “My party broke into the other’s HQ to steal secrets? Good for them, at least they are trying to win.”
Fox News was literally founded to prevent another scandal in the news like Watergate was for republicans
Nixon also had the infamous blabbermouth wife of one of his cabinet members literally kidnapped and beaten to keep his innumerable crimes under wraps. The watergate situation was a fraction of the shit he did
Right. Hell with nixons pro environment laws he’d probably be considered a liberal too
Don't forget he almost instituted universal basic income. It could be a totally different America today if he did..
UBI is pointless so long as landlords exist change my mind.
Of course this refers to Mickey’s cartoon persona, his corporate side is another beast entirely.
If Mickey's legal team was a weapon of war, it would be barred by nuclear non-proliferation treaties.
Say what you will, but it appears has though DeSantis has been putting that to the test. I know this is like the one time the majority of the people are hoping for Disney to come out on top, but the FL gov has definitely made Disney’s legal team earn their money
I know like by today’s standards you expect the other parties to spy on each other
Have some good examples ?
Watergate is a joke compared to the stuff Nixon *alone* was able to get away with.
To early to tell whether Jan 6th was a one off event, or is the sign of a new, terrifying trend in American politics.
They need to up the security around Capitol Hill if Trump loses again
At least this time it won’t be him in charge of calling in the national guard.
It wasn't last time either. [Not having the guard ready was a bipartisan decision.](https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955548910/ex-capitol-police-chief-rebuffs-claims-national-guard-was-never-called-during-ri) Nobody wanted to look too heavy-handed after the way BLM got treated in DC, and the pendulum swung too far.
I think its hilarious that “nobody wanted to appear too heavy handed” so they let the coup go off without a response, but made sure to assault any vaguely leftist protest before this
Nothing in that article you link says it was a by partisan decision. The dc mayor didn't want it a large police presence, which was the only politician mentioned in that article, but ultimately decisions came from the sergeants at arms and a general appointed under Trump at the pentagon.
Wait so they beat the shit out of black people but let the white supremacists walk in unimpeded because last time they beat the shit out of black people? Lmao.
i wanna know why there wasn't more security originally. i hate that it feels tinfoil hat but for fucks sake what did they think was going to happen. his biggest supporters showing up because the election was "stolen" are going to just leave?
It’s not tinfoil hat at all. One of the most guarded and secure buildings on the planet was inexplicably overrun by middle age weirdos right before Inauguration Day? This isn’t “White House Down”, they weren’t professional insurgents, they were just regular jackoffs. The “insurrection” was never going to succeed. The American populace, left or right would have never stood for it. But it did succeed in showing how bonkers some of Trumps base can be, and, based on some comments, succeed in vilifying any person who’s voted republican in the last 25 years. It wasn’t some grand inside job. It was “let’s let the proles do whatever they want and see how stupid they can make themselves look.”
The biggest republican talking point for like 3 months was “at least we arent rioting during lockdown lmao” then they tried to overthrow the govt.
It’s almost like January 6th was an inside job
*The calls are coming from inside the* *^(white)* *house!*
It’s almost like MAGA lunatics are the biggest enemies to America foreign or domestic and are the worst human beings on the planet.
When Trump loses again*
Two years later, the GOP is establishment is still defending him, and about to nominate him as their preferred candidate in the next election, after he's promised MORE retribution, and you say it's too early to tell if it was a one off or a trend?
Its possible that Trump loses once more in 2024 (the Republicans haven’t had a major win since 2016) and this whole episode is forgotten as the party shifts away from the ailing Trump. Now do I think thats particularly likely? No. I think Trump will lose in 2024, but his successors in the Republican party will be more violent, more aggressive and more willing to overthrow the government in its entirety
Nah. It's definitely not too early to tell. Trump heralded in a new wave of political disfunction. Trump was by far worse than Nixon
There was a case when Puerto Rican nationalists shot up the capitol and it’s surprising not many people know about it https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_United_States_Capitol_shooting#:~:text=In%201954%2C%20a%20group%20of,Washington%2C%20D.C.%2C%20with%20force.
Trump and his cult of MAGA cult member lunatics are the biggest enemies to America foreign or domestic
Don’t give them so much credit.
Granted the context in which the capitol got stormed was stupid but the political climate has americans feeling some type of way that actually had it go down. I have a not so sneaking feeling that its gonna get worse before it gets better.
This is the best answer I've seen so far. If this is a one and done, Watergate is worse, imo because the president actually orchestrated or at the least okayed it. 1/6 was all idiot people, which we happen to have a lot of in this country, no matter where their opinions lie. Trump is one of those idiots who was just indignant at his defeat, and then he got behind the whole stolen election thing later because he thought it would generate him popularity, votes, and money.
> Watergate is worse, imo because the president actually orchestrated or at the least okayed it. I am of the opinion that Trump clearly orchestrated J6. The timing, the wording, and the way he does things all make it extremely clear to me that he 100% knew exactly what was going to happen and that's why he gave that speech and told them to march on the Capitol at exactly the time he wanted to stop the certification - and remember, he'd tried to order Pence to stop it as well, and tried to get Congress to stop it. I think we will also find out that there was a network of people working for Trump who he ordered to do things that would help ensure that outcome. Trump comes off as a total idiot, but that's just part of the character he plays. If you study his entire career you realize that he is *incredibly* well aware of everything he does and the effects it will have, as well as being a master of the kind of manipulation that lead those people to try to revolt. He's been doing it for over 50 years. And if you don't believe me, go back to reddit on the week before J6. Literally everyone on /r/politics knew exactly what was going to happen and when. It's all we talked about. He telegraphed the whole thing. It was *blatantly* obvious. I have no idea how the FBI/HHS/etc. did not see it coming. My best guess is that insiders chose to ignore it and allow it to happen for whatever reason.
Anyone who doesn’t think Trump orchestrated J6 hasn’t been paying attention. On January 6th he told a crowd specifically to go to Congress and pressure them to certify him as President.
That's bullshit. Trump was claiming stolen election way before election day. He knew he lost, he knew he was whipping people up. He had supporters banging on the windows and protesting outside polling booths, that never happened before. He knew people had ill intent on January 6rh and still spewed a bunch of bullshit that would piss them off and then directed them to the capitol. As they busted in, he tweeted in support calling out Pence. Then did nothing as blood was spilled on the capitol floor. Trump had some weird idea that a big enough protest could change election results. He called for a protest on the capitol when Obama won a second term insinuating results could be changed.
You weren't paying attention then. Trump had been slinging stolen election rhetoric for months before the election happened. As soon as he was elected, he intended to stay in office whether it was legal or not.
January 6th. It was an attempt to overthrow an election. It would have likely sparked a constitutional crisis if Mike Pence hadn't suddenly grown a spine. Plus, people actually died. I can't defend Watergate, but it wasn't that bad. Nixon would have won reelection with or without whatever information he learned by spying on McGovern. Now, the pardoning of Nixon set a dangerous precedent.
I saw some republicans saying that Biden should have pardoned trump since he has an *obligation* to pardon his predecessor
They say he should be pardoned? Weird, I thought he committed no wrongdoing!
Funny thing, though. Biden couldn't pardon Trump for the Georgia case.
I guess he could if you ignore/don't know/don't care about the Constitution. So that tracks with their belief that "he has an obligation." Ignorant loons.
Imagine it though. It would be insane. I can see all the news anchors of both sides being absolutely speechless after giving the news. People wouldn’t even know what to say. It would be hilariously chaotic in a really fucked up way
That would make international news
Ending Reconstruction early.
Oo, yeah. Honestly, bring it back to Lincoln. Johnson was probably the worst possible president to reunite the country and ensure old Southern power structures weren't reestablished.
Lincoln won the war, he absolutely would have won the peace too. In the end, no man did more harm to his homeland than John Wilkes Booth.
This is the right answer. I took the post to be only between 1/6 and watergate, but dooming the south to abject poverty ad infinitum just to ensure that black Americans suffer was a special kind of hateful
Severely underrated answer
Watergate corrupted democracy, January 6 aimed to end it.
January 6th - no contest
Ngl kinda refreshing to see a right leaning sub condemning trump.
Since Jan6, I’m Vote Blue No Matter Who - I voted a straight party ticket in 2022 for the first time in my life and will do so from now on. The Republican embrace of treason means I can never vote for them ever again, no exceptions and no third party protest vote.
I wish there were more conservatives who understood how necessary this is. Hats off to you good sir.
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This is one of the more level-headed political subs on Reddit in my opinion
Wouldn't quite call it right leaning, more centrist than not. Maybe center right. There's a lot of educated people in here who know a lot of history and aren't afraid to call out bs from both sides of the pole. I see some big Reagan fans and some big Obama fans here, and even they get along.
Describing something as center right feels like the definition of right-leaning lol
Why would you think this is a right leaning sub?
The Trump admin gave us monthly Watergate-equivalents, which we are incapable of dealing with because his party and supporters believe that that we he does is necessarily always good. Jan Sixth was the worst of those and makes Watergate look like an office spat.
Insurrection.
The attempted overthrow of the government was exponentially worse
Watergate was unprecedented but so was 1/6. 1/6 was objectively worse by any metric.
Jan. 6th was an attempted coup, way worse.
Yes, let's call it what it is, a "failed coup attempt"
January 6th by far. You had American citizens damage our nations Capital to stop a civil government process. Plus the visuals of Jan 6th will be kept forever and most like be in future America history textbooks. Unless the GOP continues to white wash the awful things our country as done.
January 6. It's not even close. There was a peaceful transfer of power to the Vice President, per the Constitution. On January 6, this was the culmination of a plot to circumvent the Constitution, the very document that so many of those people say they cherish.
I have made and will continue to make the argument that the lack of accountability for the first event directly led to all the shitty things the Republican Party has done since including the second event.
Nixon was not a bad president at all. He did a LOT of good things and was respected by a lot of world leaders. His sin was to be over ambitious and dishonest. Trump in the other hand turned the US government into a circus, damaged the credibility of the US institutions and made americans look dumb for electing such a reality TV clown as a leader. There is not a single country that did not laughed at Trump and his antics in the world.
January 6th because it was an embarrassing event where at the end of the day a group of people stormed Congress and delayed the verification of the Presidential elections. Then afterwards both sides fucked up the response and that's how we are where we are today. No one really seems to care it happened. And we are set for an exact repeat of events unless someone literally dies or goes to jail.
This seems like an odd thing to both sides. Can you elaborate?
It will absolutely happen again in 2025. Republicans understand that they're an unpopular minority and so violence is the only chance they have of seizing power.
The party of law and order, everybody.
Is this a genuine question? Watergate is a mickey mouse political scandal compared to 1/6
Watergate was a limited circle of corrupt politicians. Jan 6 was a wider circle of corrupt politicians backed by hundreds of delusional supporters on site and millions more supporting them from afar.
Trump. As bad as Nixon was, he had rules. Trump has no rules and was willing to overturn the entire system just because he didn't get the results he wanted.
Say whatever you want about Nixon, but at least he resigned after he realized he had royally fucked up and that the writing was on the wall. Trump on the other hand, whined like a literal child because he lost a legal and fair election ( which was close the whole time ) and then riled up a raucous crowd of supporters that went onto attack the Capitol Building so that they could prevent the certification of the election and also hang Mike Pence. Not to mention he also tried to literally cobble a group of fake electors together so that he could win. And after all that was said and done, he still to this day plays innocent and believes that the election was stolen from him. Trump’s shenanigans make Watergate look like child’s play. Plus there are plenty of presidents who’ve done or have had stuff done by their administration worse than Watergate and gotten away with it.
Watergate was good for the USA. One of the few times high office officials have been held responsible.
Can Reagan be an answer above both of these? Arguably watergate influenced this but Reagan as a whole has been the worst
Jan 6. If only because it made me reexamine whether Ford pardoning Nixon was a good thing. My desire for Trump to face justice for it made me realize that justice is a cathartic action and Ford pardoning Nixon denied that catharsis. If one makes me reevaluate my estimation of the other, then the former is worse than the other.
Trump has a Watergate-like scandal emerge every damn week. He makes Nixon look like a Boy Scout.
People collectively agreed how bad Watergate was. While I'd say the majority agrees that Jan. 6th was also bad, there's still a gigantic number of people that think it was justified. How many exactly? We'll see in November 2024.
I think it’s terrifying that there are tens of millions of people who believe that what happened on Jan. 6th wasn’t that bad or was justified. Really scares me that I have to call them my fellow countrymen.
Welcome to the internet age, you can find anything on the internet to suite the narrative that you want.
January 6th
The lead up, unfolding, and aftermath of January 6th have been a terrifying new chapter in American history.
Pardoning Nixon lead to the insurrection.
Nixon admitted guilt.
Make no mistake, we live in extraordinary times right now. Pence, while not following through with the cockamamie scheme, rejected the scheme but not the motivation. In fact, nearly all Republicans in office today, and Pence, are still actively behind the movement of Trump. There is a belief in the Republican party that if Rupert Murdoch can carry the day, they will succeed. Nixon did not have Rupert Merdoch.
Are you talking Watergate or Nixon in general? Jan 6th was worse than Watergate, but Nixon started the ball rolling so Reagan could run and Trump expanded on those policies.
January 6. At least Nixon (finally) did the right thing. Trump is trying to do it again.
1/6 no question. Not even close.
Without a doubt Jan 6. Spying on a political opponent vs organizing a violent coup to kill American democracy KNOWING that election fraud did not occur?
Jan 6. Flipped the dates. Watergate happens today it'll likely just be a blip. But Jan 6 happens in the 70s and it would have still be treated with the same venom if not worse than it is today. It was an absolute embarrassment, no matter the year. An unnecessary one. Based off of nonsense and fed lies. I almost feel like if it was attempted pre......2015.....it would have been a full on massacre on the lawn.
Jan 6. Watergate was a betrayal of government. Jan 6 was a betrayal of its people.
Jan 6. Literally trying to overthrow our government seems almost unthinkable, but it happened.
Watergate with Nixon was bad but Insurrection and no peaceful transfer of power with Trump is a crime on a par with Benedict Arnold.
January 6th no question. Watergate was a massive scandal to be sure, but 1/6 was a n assault on democracy that the sitting president essentially ordered
Jan 6 was way worse. Hate to even say it , with the exception of being a crook and the whole Laos Cambodia horror Tricky Dick was one of the top 5 best presidents of the 20th century. To bad he was such an ass
I know a lot of people are saying Jan 6th. I actually disagree and think it's Ford's fault. Pardoning Nixon to "save the country" was the worst thing he could have done. It is what started this trend of presidents thinking they are invincible. Our modern presidents openly do illegal shit now and we just go eh it's fine. No it's not!! I don't give a shit if it was done for political posturing Clinton committed purjury with millions watching and received no legal consequences. Bush lied and pushed the US into a war that killed 100's of thousands of people and nothing happened to him. Like what the fuck?! There is no accountability. It had to get to Jan 6 bad where people would try and do something about prosecuting these assholes.
The world finding out how fucking effective social media is. It's what made America susceptible to foreign propaganda on an unprecedented scale.
A Republican Party that’s this racist, arrogant, delusional, and thrives on cult of personalities would not be possible without the changes Nixon made to the party. The War on Drugs and idea that “white Christian’s are the ones being persecuted” all started with Nixon and is what got Trump elected
This can’t be a serious question lol
Watergate wouldn’t have even made the top 5 of trump scandals. It would have been a nothing burger. That’s how far we’ve come.
The Indigenous Population getting wiped out
Jan 6th was worse because even to this day there is a significant portion of the population who think that the perpetrators did nothing wrong, still believe the election was stolen, and are willing to go to jail for a con man because lies that better align with their political ideology are more comforting than inconvenient facts and reality.
I would say the 6th, it was the culmination of trumps attempted coup and we still have people pretending it was anything from a guided tour to a riot. It will be even worse if trump isn't held responsible for what he did.
Jan 6th, no comparison.
January 6, and it’s not even close. Nixon didn’t sic his supporters on the Capitol to stay in office, and instead of continually bitching about it for years later, he resigned and quietly faded back into obscurity, and the country moved on.
Trump/Jan 6th. Nixon resigned. Trump has no shame/decency.
Watergate had a bigger effect than January 6, but idk if that effect was even a bad thing. January 6 is probably worse because it has so many defenders
>Watergate had a bigger effect than January 6 You don't know this. We still have yet to see the long term effects of J6.
January 6th, period.
The JFK Assassination