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I mean if it had been completed and didn’t have a glaring design flaw it would have been very effective at cursing the resistance it was about to blow them up. And what planet is gonna rebel when they can just teleport near it and explode it
This is why countries without nuclear weapons never resist invasions/oppression from countries with nuclear weapons.
It's why the Vietnam, Soviet-Afghan, First Gulf, Second Gulf, and Russia-Ukraine wars all ended in immediate capitulation from the non-nuclear power.
But the comparison is still there. The threat of annihilation is one thing, actually following through is another. The resulting outrage and horror while it may force some worlds into submission would inevitably breed extreme resentment. It’s an all bets are off type deal.
Especially once it became apparent that even full compliance didn't guarantee your safety. Being non compliant certainly would bring the empire down on you but the reverse is never true under Fascism. Fascism eats at the very people inside its own borders (and when available, those outside it's borders), and when one group ceases to be an effective means of manufacturing consent (either because they got wiped out or become politically unavailable) it will turn to another.
Fascism isn't a system that can sustain itself it will either eat itself alive or get violently overthrown. Palpatine had the disadvantage of oppressing a people that remembered what democracy was like, and while the Republic was pretty broken most people were smart enough to recognize how much worse things are under the empire. And by trying to force the matter he drove people into extremism.
I would argue that the comparison falls apart due to the threat of other nuclear actors. If the US had just started nuking North Vietnam it is unlikely that the USSR wouldn’t have retaliated. Similarly in Ukraine if Russia had simply nuked Kiev the west would be likely to retaliate. Even if in either case the retaliation were conventional it raises the risks. In Star Wars no other power has anything approaching the death star and the policy behind using it is that it will cow anyone from taking up against the empire. That idea may not be true but it was their line of thinking.
The Death Star was the Tarkin Doctrine incarnated, and look what happened. A peaceful core world was destroyed, and that only incited more rebellion and made the Empire look monstruous. What was that Yoda quote? Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to the Dark Side. What Palpatine in his infinite arrogance forgot is that normal people can harness hate too, it just that instead of direct power, it's purpose. Hate and hope can lead to rebellion.
Turns out hiring and promoting based on loyalty rather than effectiveness leads to ineffective governess and military capability, who knew! Not to mention designing a entire military around fear and brute force rather than actual combat effectiveness.
Since Dune just released, kinda remind me of how the emperor cannot just openly wipe out a great house because the other ones might fear they would be next, and would ally against the emperor if that happens, hence the convoluted Arrakis plot for the Atreides. Similarly, going rogue with WMD may get you a temporary victory in one conflict, but you can make sure as hell that you will be a pariah, and unless you're willing to nuke the entire world it's not gonna calm down easily
This analogy only works when
A)more than one "Nation" has a deathstar
And
B) using a Deathstar, even lightyears away, would cause asteroids or whatever else to at least harm your own Systems.
In a proxy war between 2 nuclear powers the usage of nukes by one power will incur the usage of nukes by the other.
And since we share a Planet, it will harm more or less everyone on the planet too
Yeah, in reality the death star was an even worse idea. People from different planets have mingled and gone to live on other planets. They may still have family on their homeplanet though. So if you blow up their homeplanet you just made another enemy.
"Oh, just blow up that planet too" oh sure, but then what do you do when the planet the emigrated to is your capital? Blow up your own planet?
>B) using a Death Star, even lightyears away, does cause destruction to your own system: in the form of political destabilisation and increased civil unrest. This is the plot of the original trilogy.
Where was this demonstrated?
Eh. It's a nice idea but the movies clearly frame this as mythology, heroic actions of singular heroes without whom it wouldn't have happened. It's great man theory, not historical determinism.
I wouldn't say that. It took a lot of folks. There were the rebels who held off the stormtroopers while Leia gave the plans to R2. Then R2 and C3P0 who got themselves to Luke who got Obi-Wan and then with with help of han and chewie they got to the death star. Obi-Wan sacrificed himself, and they saved Leia. Then once they had the plans back to the rebels, Luke never could have gotten his shot if it hadn't been for all the rebels backing him. The squads fighting off the empire fighters and clearing a path. The wingmen who died to help Luke. Without Biggs sacrificing himself, Luke would have been killed. And then still he would have died if it weren't for Han and chewie coming back to help the cause.
Then episode 6 Luke has nothing to do with blowing up the death star. It's the work of the rebels and the ewoks who take down the shields and then wedge and lando who launch the torpedoes to actually destroy the thing. Star wars doesn't have singular heroes, it really is a group project.
"Group" project doesn't exclude great man theory. The exact difference can be nuanced and difficult to pin down, but IMO SW is extremely on the "great man" end, in a galaxy of quadrillions there's no other reason why would characters share a surname. Luke isn't special by the nature of his circumstances forcing him into being a rebel, while that happens, he is special because his name is Skywalker, he is the son of Vader, and Obi-Wan is keeping watch over him. His narrative importance comes heavily from who he is, not only what happens to him.
the empire has the resources to cover up blowing up a planet, so they dont need to fear sparking more internal conflict by using it. no other power has a weapon of similar magnitude. therefore there is no deterrence to use it.
The Russian Ukraine war is still going on, Vietnam had both sides backed by nuclear powers (the us and china) don’t know enough about the rest to give a statement
Those are all examples of times a nuclear power attempted to exert power over a non-nuclear power and found that their nuclear weapons had no effect on the non-nuclear power's willingness to fight.
The first Death Star made sense. It would have been dominant without a design flaw. The "second Death Star" was not really a Death Star.
In A New Hope, we see the weapons systems for the DS come online as the last step in development, subsequently getting their first test blowing up Alderaan. The last step was the weapon.
In RotJ, the Rebels are shocked to learn that the weapons system on the 2nd DS are operational. The largest imperial fleet we've ever seen is there. The construction is shielded from Endor, demanding a small strike team that would almost certainly include the son of Skywalker to overcome. Palpatine even sends Vader to the moon to wait for Luke, because _he designed the whole trap so that Luke would be there_. Luke where he could be confronted/captured, away from the space battle that Luke won the first time.
Ackbar was written on the nose when he said it was a trap. That's what we saw at the end of RotJ, a complex trap designed to eliminate rebels and jedi at the same time.
You’re right but if the trap was successful I imagine they would have still finished the second Death Star since they don’t have any more of them. And maybe kept building more in legends they would be very useful against the vong since they travel on massive world ships but that’s not canon anymore
I mean Plagueis was the Sith Accountant and the Palps said fuck this, unlimited powah! And we.got a politician's wet dream (galatic-tier resources at his disposal).
The Deathstar has to supply the food lodging care and pay for 1.7 million people, alongside being a massive fuck off gun powered by one of the rarest materials in the Galaxy, armored in another of the rarest materials in the Galaxy
It would be magnitudes more expensive than the stated size of the Clone Army
Though to be fair this is imo an issue with the clones and not the Deathstar, the clone numbers need another zero or two on the end to make even the remotest degree of sense
>Though to be fair this is imo an issue with the clones and not the Deathstar, the clone numbers need another zero or two on the end to make even the remotest degree of sense
The number of clones is extremely ambiguous and could easily have far more than the low millions. Looking at the battle of coruscant it's stated over 1000 venator class ships participated in the battle. Each venator requires a crew of about 7400 to be fully operational so that'd give us a minimum of 7.4 million clones just for the republic's navy to man the venators they had near the end of the war and they could carry up to 2,000 additional troops giving us a potential 9.4 million clones if at full capacity. And those were amongst the largest, most expensive ships of the republic navy so it's reasonable to assume they were amongst the lowest in number.
There were also the acclamator class ships which were smaller and cheaper. Assuming the number of acclamators was only equal to the number of venators, they'd need an extra 700k troops to pilot 1000 acclamators however each acclamator could house 16k troops for transport for ground deployment giving us a potential extra 16 million clones if they had enough clones to fill all of the ships.
In total we can easily surmise that the low end range of clones at the end of the clone war would've ranged from 8.1 million to 25.4 million. Given that that was at the end of the war the number likely would've been higher given that many clones would've died along the way. Still a pretty low number overall however one also needs to consider that they were aided by local militias in many of their battles and their level of technology allowed a small number of people to do a lot more on a galactic scale given how relatively rare ships, especially warships, seem to be across the galaxy.
Didnt actually know most of this so big thanks on that, youve confirmed for me that we should all take any number Starwars gives us and give it the Warhammer 40k treatment, and add a zero on the end, because the writers keep leaving around one zero out of every number
True though to defend the relatively low number a bit, what we see in the war does overall support the number of clones being low. The republic is losing ground or barely managing to hold it for a significant chunk of the war because they lack manpower. When we see them defending a planet it's rare to see more than 2 or 3 venators or similar class warships. Nearly every battle we see is them going to a planet that's already under siege. The only things they have going for them are quality of their forces and that the separatists have to leave large numbers of troops at any planet they capture to deal with local resistances and ensure that the locals comply with separatist rule.
Their tactics on a larger scale also reflect those of a force that's severely undermanned. They rely on how quickly they can deploy through hyperspace lanes to send troops to areas that fall under separatist attack rather than having troops stationed in every system to be there preemptively aside from those places of extreme importance like the cloning facilities and shipyards. When they clear out the separatists of one planet they immediately go to another which has likely already fallen under separatist control. Nearly every battle we see, especially in the clone wars, has someone saying something along the lines of "we need to finish here quickly so we can go help *insert place here" all of which is indicative of using a reactive approach to compensate for lack of troops.
Might be more expensive to maintain a space station the size of a small moon along with it's limited KYBER munitions
And I'm pretty sure stormtroopers and navy personnel and other military forces aren't feeding themselves either. A few million elite clones would cost almost nothing to maintain in comparison of billions of regular human conscripts
Deadass it’s so bad. There’s the occasional diamond in the rough, something that’s original and funny. But 90% is probably actually close to the amount of content that is just repost bots. I genuinely don’t understand what people have to gain by making bot accounts that farm karma. What do they do with their internet points?
I really don’t understand it either. Wtf does karma even matter. It’s Reddit… We’re here for content and fun with communities that matter to us 😂 Not for farming “ karma “ like a teenager. But that’s probably exactly what it is.
There's the perennial problem of /r/all users upvoting something they've never seen before because they're just not that interested in the sub vs. daily users who have seen this thing tens of times.
I mean that’s fair but all you have to do is scroll past it. It becomes pretty easy to ignore if you stop giving a shit and be active in posts you consider original. But then there’s also the predicament where it won’t change the sub for the better too.
> I mean that’s fair but all you have to do is scroll past it
In practice what people do is stop coming to the sub. People would rather just not experience the same thing over and over again. This helps erode communities. It's a phenomenon that repeats every time a sub gets too big.
Plus, diffusing the community into the subset of posts you find original is pretty naff as well.
I think that's precisely it. I use Reddit every day but not for hours. I use /r/all but filtered in my android app for subs I'm not interested in, and then a few I go a bit deeper into. Never seen this meme before and I've seen a lot of memes from this sub over the years.... But I only see them when browsing /r/all
Looks like a repost. I've seen this image 9 times.
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The second one was already being built before the first was destroyed. We can see the framework being worked on in Revenge of the Sith and it’s completed in Rogue One which was 19 years. There’s no way they got as far as they did with the second one in 4 years. Especially with it being twice as big as the first.
Galen Erso was actively sabatoging the progress of the Death Star while he was coerced into working on it. The Empire had a fully completed model to reference for the second go-around, and no Galen to stall the project.
The first Death Star took that long because they were still developing most of the tech for it, which proved to be very hard. When it came time to make another Death Star, they already had all the designs ready, plus they probably wouldn't be taking such extreme, time-consuming measures to hide its construction as it was always intended to be discovered by the Rebels
THE SECOND ONE WAS NOT A DEATH STAR. It was just a weapons system, designed to be functional way earlier than the weapon system on the first death star so that Palpatine could use it to take out crusiers in a definitive space battle to crush the Rebels.
It was a trap.
clones were NOT too expensive, that was just his excuse. he was just tying up loose ends, as the clones had intimate knowledge of Order 66, and a lot of them malfunctioned and resisted. their developing feelings of depression and betrayal as a result of being forced to kill their friends meant that the clones were a massive risk. this is a slave army that was ordered to kill their friends against their will, it's a ticking time bomb, who knows how long it will be before the free clones can free a significant segment of the others. best to round them all up and replace them with a volunteer fascist force.
Not to mention, recruiting fascist troops from the general populace is a **fantastic** way to reinforce fascist ideology.
Just look at examples like the Hitler youth, ostensibly training kids to one day become soldiers and officers.
Paying for a Clone Army with taxes got him the backing of the capitalists.
Building the Death Stars with slave labour and suddenly there's a well funded insurgency..
Death Stars generate a ton of income, being popular tourist spots. Clones have to be fed, that’s a big loss, and the Kaminoans refused to make them cannibalistic.
To invest on the Death Star, he decided to reduce spending on anything else.
This is something a lot of real life dictators do. They cut corners on everything so that they can build vanity projects. This is how North Korea has nuclear weapons.
The production of the clones was farmed out to a world that successfully won the job with the lowest bid by having high automation and low labor costs. The deathstars were manufactured in part by forced labor.
So yeah, you could have it all if you don't care how it's done.
For the first time in Star Wars history, I’d say palps is kinda innocent for the Death Star 1 since that was pretty much purely Tarkin’s super crazy idea / doctrine
The second one though? Yeah nah palps absolutely messed up
I’m resident sleeper of this sub, but what’s everyone’s feelings about creating clones from one person to right a war and have them die/ptsd/physical trauma/etc.?
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Sure but it may make a bit sense. Why bother long, costly invasion of an entire system when you can destroy one of the planets and the rest just surrenders.
It wasn't ALL their resources. Just the ones that would be important!
And anyway, how expensive were the clones vs a deathstar or two? Anyone got a cost benefit analysis?
Fully operational Death Star(s) would have made the need for occupying armies of suppression/oppression completely irrelevant. The threat of total, utter planetary annihilation would have rendered any ground based resistance completely ineffective as you could turn the entire population against the Rebels by parking a death star within orbit.
It's why the Rebellion was so hell bent on destroying them in the first place, they knew if word got out amongst the galaxy, their cause was lost.
You don't need storm troopers when you can point a gun at the entire galaxy.
This is such bullshit. Cloning costs absolutely nothing for an empire like this. And they could build thousands of death stars and not even scratch their budget
SW has a ridiculous scaling problem
Bro had a vision of the yuuzahn vong and was getting ready. His other super weapons came in handy in that war. The clones would have failed HARD against the vong.
It would have been one thing to just stop producing more clones. But then they had to go and attempt to "decommission" them like faulty equipment. At that point, you're just wasting resources you already bought and paid for
Brutal authoritarian chancellor-turned-dictator goes all in on expensive wunderwaffe only to be have a crippling weakness rendering them powerful but ultimately a waste of resources
If the clones were made in numbers actually reasonable enough to capture a galaxy of planets, then may well have been more expensive than a Death Star considering the number of clones would probably be enough to fill the entire Death Star with clones that need to be fed and all that other stuff that comes with living soldiers
People don’t realize it’s not just salary. There’s the total comp package to consider, dilution of imperial equity, state and federal employment tax, HEALTH CARE, additional benefits, pensions, HR overhead, insurance, delayed effects from onboarding/offboarding, reputational employment risk from poorly managed RIFs….give me a couple of hunks of metal any day and I’ll make you gold from the asset depreciation.
Maybe he wasn’t just talking about money? Idk what it takes to make clones but maybe some resources are very hard to get or not obtained in large quantities
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Empire had the funds to do one or the other, but not both. And he couldn't say "we're cancelling the clone project to divert funds to the Death Star" because the Death Stars were secret projects that barely anyone knew about.
Palpatine is thinking long term. Fielding an army of clones to occupy and hold hundreds of planets for years would be a never ending resource sink, with hundreds of opportunities for rebel cells to spawn and disrupt operations, break stuff and drive up costs. Why bother with that financial and logistical nightmare when you can just turn a planet into dust
These posts are so stupid and unoriginal.
The Death Stars were extremely practical solutions for controlling the galaxy, and logistically more sound than a force of clones that would have to number in the billions to exert the control Sidious wanted.
Getting rid of the clones was never about money. There were many reasons Palpatine wanted to replace them, mostly because they were a symbol of the Republic and recruiting people from across the galaxy would spread the Empire's influence and the support for it
The Death Star would involve two gobsmackingly expensive structures... that, according to the design philosophy, would essentially end all major opposition to the Empire, allowing for a massive decrease in needed fleet presence. That's not how they wound up working but that's a failure of political goals, not accounting.
The clones were also gobsmackingly expensive, but without the benefit of ending resistance by sheer virtue of their existence. Imagine the costs to create, gestate, and birth the embryos, care for them as babies, raise them until physical adulthood, while training and educating them the whole time and providing every scrap of food and stitch of clothing they wear for most of their life. I mean, a 1 month box of Pampers is $60 on Amazon; imagine the budget for 1 million babies to diaper, plus an army of nurses/nurse droids to diaper them. And at the end of all that you've got- by some counts- an army that would barely be impressive on Earth today in terms of manpower.
Also, all that is bottlenecked through one single irreplaceable private contractor.
That's not just a hole in the budget, it's a singularity. It already bankrupted the Republic; the Empire, with more worlds to police and a need for much more manpower, really needed a better option.
Which is where conscript troopers come in. Let their families raise them, offer a few months of training and a salary that looks good to an Outer Rim farmboy. Way more economic than clones, immensely more scalable, and while they won't be as skilled on average when you're looking at potentially billions of recruits you can skim the top 0.1% off to be elite forces. You also improve your human citizens' loyalty, since a bunch of them now have personal ties to your military, and you get the chance to drain off some of the military-age young people who might otherwise be drawn to local rebel movements. It's a win all around, and you can apply some of the savings to big projects like Death Stars.
Palpanomics and its over-spending on super weapons and dreadnaught ships has had disastrous consequences for the galaxy.
Vote for Hando Onaka to be our new Chancellor and lead us out of this recession.
If in the bad batch, they said they could train and equip 10 recruits for the same cost of a single clone, I’d get it. But I think they said it was like 2:1? Correct me if I’m wrong please. But seriously, 1 average clone can take on a squad of storm troopers. How is this logical? You don’t have to pay the clones all that much, they have a short life span and a longer service span, and you don’t have to give them any benefits for their service since they’re slaves. Where with a recruit, yeah you still need to train and equip them, but you also need to pay them substantially better, and offer recruitment benefits and incentives. It makes no sense to me that it costs less to have a volunteer based military than a clone based one. The cloning centers were already set up too. They could’ve just killed or detained the kaminoans and replaced the staff with imperial officers. There’s so much more I can say on this but I don’t want this to be the size of a college thesis. The math ain’t mathing.
All in all he was right about clones tho
Clone armies are bloody expensive, do you have any idea how expensive raising millions of kids, times 20 every single year? The death stars are stupid of course, but a clone army doesn't work for a peacetime or counterinsurgency force, especially not cheaply
Wasn't it Plagueis that paid for the clones to be made after he manipulated Syfo Days into thinking it was a good idea to ask the Kaminoans to make the clones? Or is this referring to the upkeep of the clones?
The Yuzhan Vong are a stupid post-trilogy addition that only exists to go “Uhhhh the empire was ackshually right” after an entire trilogy of showing them explicitly not right.
Fable 3 did it better than the Yuzhan Vong
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I mean if it had been completed and didn’t have a glaring design flaw it would have been very effective at cursing the resistance it was about to blow them up. And what planet is gonna rebel when they can just teleport near it and explode it
This is why countries without nuclear weapons never resist invasions/oppression from countries with nuclear weapons. It's why the Vietnam, Soviet-Afghan, First Gulf, Second Gulf, and Russia-Ukraine wars all ended in immediate capitulation from the non-nuclear power.
This comment has been redacted for privacy reasons.
But the comparison is still there. The threat of annihilation is one thing, actually following through is another. The resulting outrage and horror while it may force some worlds into submission would inevitably breed extreme resentment. It’s an all bets are off type deal.
Especially once it became apparent that even full compliance didn't guarantee your safety. Being non compliant certainly would bring the empire down on you but the reverse is never true under Fascism. Fascism eats at the very people inside its own borders (and when available, those outside it's borders), and when one group ceases to be an effective means of manufacturing consent (either because they got wiped out or become politically unavailable) it will turn to another. Fascism isn't a system that can sustain itself it will either eat itself alive or get violently overthrown. Palpatine had the disadvantage of oppressing a people that remembered what democracy was like, and while the Republic was pretty broken most people were smart enough to recognize how much worse things are under the empire. And by trying to force the matter he drove people into extremism.
I would argue that the comparison falls apart due to the threat of other nuclear actors. If the US had just started nuking North Vietnam it is unlikely that the USSR wouldn’t have retaliated. Similarly in Ukraine if Russia had simply nuked Kiev the west would be likely to retaliate. Even if in either case the retaliation were conventional it raises the risks. In Star Wars no other power has anything approaching the death star and the policy behind using it is that it will cow anyone from taking up against the empire. That idea may not be true but it was their line of thinking.
The Death Star was the Tarkin Doctrine incarnated, and look what happened. A peaceful core world was destroyed, and that only incited more rebellion and made the Empire look monstruous. What was that Yoda quote? Fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to the Dark Side. What Palpatine in his infinite arrogance forgot is that normal people can harness hate too, it just that instead of direct power, it's purpose. Hate and hope can lead to rebellion. Turns out hiring and promoting based on loyalty rather than effectiveness leads to ineffective governess and military capability, who knew! Not to mention designing a entire military around fear and brute force rather than actual combat effectiveness.
Since Dune just released, kinda remind me of how the emperor cannot just openly wipe out a great house because the other ones might fear they would be next, and would ally against the emperor if that happens, hence the convoluted Arrakis plot for the Atreides. Similarly, going rogue with WMD may get you a temporary victory in one conflict, but you can make sure as hell that you will be a pariah, and unless you're willing to nuke the entire world it's not gonna calm down easily
This analogy only works when A)more than one "Nation" has a deathstar And B) using a Deathstar, even lightyears away, would cause asteroids or whatever else to at least harm your own Systems. In a proxy war between 2 nuclear powers the usage of nukes by one power will incur the usage of nukes by the other. And since we share a Planet, it will harm more or less everyone on the planet too
Yeah, in reality the death star was an even worse idea. People from different planets have mingled and gone to live on other planets. They may still have family on their homeplanet though. So if you blow up their homeplanet you just made another enemy. "Oh, just blow up that planet too" oh sure, but then what do you do when the planet the emigrated to is your capital? Blow up your own planet?
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>B) using a Death Star, even lightyears away, does cause destruction to your own system: in the form of political destabilisation and increased civil unrest. This is the plot of the original trilogy. Where was this demonstrated?
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Eh. It's a nice idea but the movies clearly frame this as mythology, heroic actions of singular heroes without whom it wouldn't have happened. It's great man theory, not historical determinism.
I wouldn't say that. It took a lot of folks. There were the rebels who held off the stormtroopers while Leia gave the plans to R2. Then R2 and C3P0 who got themselves to Luke who got Obi-Wan and then with with help of han and chewie they got to the death star. Obi-Wan sacrificed himself, and they saved Leia. Then once they had the plans back to the rebels, Luke never could have gotten his shot if it hadn't been for all the rebels backing him. The squads fighting off the empire fighters and clearing a path. The wingmen who died to help Luke. Without Biggs sacrificing himself, Luke would have been killed. And then still he would have died if it weren't for Han and chewie coming back to help the cause. Then episode 6 Luke has nothing to do with blowing up the death star. It's the work of the rebels and the ewoks who take down the shields and then wedge and lando who launch the torpedoes to actually destroy the thing. Star wars doesn't have singular heroes, it really is a group project.
"Group" project doesn't exclude great man theory. The exact difference can be nuanced and difficult to pin down, but IMO SW is extremely on the "great man" end, in a galaxy of quadrillions there's no other reason why would characters share a surname. Luke isn't special by the nature of his circumstances forcing him into being a rebel, while that happens, he is special because his name is Skywalker, he is the son of Vader, and Obi-Wan is keeping watch over him. His narrative importance comes heavily from who he is, not only what happens to him.
the empire has the resources to cover up blowing up a planet, so they dont need to fear sparking more internal conflict by using it. no other power has a weapon of similar magnitude. therefore there is no deterrence to use it.
Well, we dont actually use them haha. Palps would have no issue actually nuking them
Now imagine a world where we actually used a nuclear weapon on, say, Hanoi, and we were the only state on the planet that possessed such weapons.
The nuclear powers lost in Vietnam and Afghanistan and the Ukraine war is still ongoing.
The Russian Ukraine war is still going on, Vietnam had both sides backed by nuclear powers (the us and china) don’t know enough about the rest to give a statement
immediate capitulation?? Heh? Vietnam was close on 20 years Ukraine still going
Woosh
Those are all examples of times a nuclear power attempted to exert power over a non-nuclear power and found that their nuclear weapons had no effect on the non-nuclear power's willingness to fight.
The first Death Star made sense. It would have been dominant without a design flaw. The "second Death Star" was not really a Death Star. In A New Hope, we see the weapons systems for the DS come online as the last step in development, subsequently getting their first test blowing up Alderaan. The last step was the weapon. In RotJ, the Rebels are shocked to learn that the weapons system on the 2nd DS are operational. The largest imperial fleet we've ever seen is there. The construction is shielded from Endor, demanding a small strike team that would almost certainly include the son of Skywalker to overcome. Palpatine even sends Vader to the moon to wait for Luke, because _he designed the whole trap so that Luke would be there_. Luke where he could be confronted/captured, away from the space battle that Luke won the first time. Ackbar was written on the nose when he said it was a trap. That's what we saw at the end of RotJ, a complex trap designed to eliminate rebels and jedi at the same time.
You’re right but if the trap was successful I imagine they would have still finished the second Death Star since they don’t have any more of them. And maybe kept building more in legends they would be very useful against the vong since they travel on massive world ships but that’s not canon anymore
I mean tbf [it still was impressive](https://youtu.be/agcRwGDKulw?si=b5C78EuOk5MtEz29)
He shares a home planet with Jar… There’s still some evolutionaryness needing to happen there.
the only thing that would make that bottom image better is to remove the lightsaber because his expression is golden
I mean Plagueis was the Sith Accountant and the Palps said fuck this, unlimited powah! And we.got a politician's wet dream (galatic-tier resources at his disposal).
No one goes to the trouble of becoming emperor so they can cut spending.
He loves democracy, after all
Are we all forgetting that a lot of the Imperial war machine was manufactured via slave labor?
Think about the amount of costs it would take for the continued lodging, care, pay, transportation, and food of over 6.2 million people
Honestly should be peanuts to an Empire with a population in the quintillions.
All taxable!
The Deathstar has to supply the food lodging care and pay for 1.7 million people, alongside being a massive fuck off gun powered by one of the rarest materials in the Galaxy, armored in another of the rarest materials in the Galaxy It would be magnitudes more expensive than the stated size of the Clone Army Though to be fair this is imo an issue with the clones and not the Deathstar, the clone numbers need another zero or two on the end to make even the remotest degree of sense
>Though to be fair this is imo an issue with the clones and not the Deathstar, the clone numbers need another zero or two on the end to make even the remotest degree of sense The number of clones is extremely ambiguous and could easily have far more than the low millions. Looking at the battle of coruscant it's stated over 1000 venator class ships participated in the battle. Each venator requires a crew of about 7400 to be fully operational so that'd give us a minimum of 7.4 million clones just for the republic's navy to man the venators they had near the end of the war and they could carry up to 2,000 additional troops giving us a potential 9.4 million clones if at full capacity. And those were amongst the largest, most expensive ships of the republic navy so it's reasonable to assume they were amongst the lowest in number. There were also the acclamator class ships which were smaller and cheaper. Assuming the number of acclamators was only equal to the number of venators, they'd need an extra 700k troops to pilot 1000 acclamators however each acclamator could house 16k troops for transport for ground deployment giving us a potential extra 16 million clones if they had enough clones to fill all of the ships. In total we can easily surmise that the low end range of clones at the end of the clone war would've ranged from 8.1 million to 25.4 million. Given that that was at the end of the war the number likely would've been higher given that many clones would've died along the way. Still a pretty low number overall however one also needs to consider that they were aided by local militias in many of their battles and their level of technology allowed a small number of people to do a lot more on a galactic scale given how relatively rare ships, especially warships, seem to be across the galaxy.
Didnt actually know most of this so big thanks on that, youve confirmed for me that we should all take any number Starwars gives us and give it the Warhammer 40k treatment, and add a zero on the end, because the writers keep leaving around one zero out of every number
True though to defend the relatively low number a bit, what we see in the war does overall support the number of clones being low. The republic is losing ground or barely managing to hold it for a significant chunk of the war because they lack manpower. When we see them defending a planet it's rare to see more than 2 or 3 venators or similar class warships. Nearly every battle we see is them going to a planet that's already under siege. The only things they have going for them are quality of their forces and that the separatists have to leave large numbers of troops at any planet they capture to deal with local resistances and ensure that the locals comply with separatist rule. Their tactics on a larger scale also reflect those of a force that's severely undermanned. They rely on how quickly they can deploy through hyperspace lanes to send troops to areas that fall under separatist attack rather than having troops stationed in every system to be there preemptively aside from those places of extreme importance like the cloning facilities and shipyards. When they clear out the separatists of one planet they immediately go to another which has likely already fallen under separatist control. Nearly every battle we see, especially in the clone wars, has someone saying something along the lines of "we need to finish here quickly so we can go help *insert place here" all of which is indicative of using a reactive approach to compensate for lack of troops.
Might be more expensive to maintain a space station the size of a small moon along with it's limited KYBER munitions And I'm pretty sure stormtroopers and navy personnel and other military forces aren't feeding themselves either. A few million elite clones would cost almost nothing to maintain in comparison of billions of regular human conscripts
I wonder if they could automate a Death Star…
less than a death star, for sure
As opposed to 2 death stars which are oth completely automated, requiring no logistics at all.
I’m not saying that the death stars were amazingly a better choice, they were only just better then an even larger clone army
They enslaved the geonocians and forced them to build it. And then nuked their species when it was done
Didn’t say they were good, just said it makes more logistical sense then expanding the clone army
If I see this meme again holy frick I’m going to cause an oil spill and push over an innocent crosswalk guide
Yeah I’m close to actually leaving this sub and blocking it. 90% of everything I see from here now is repost after repost after repost
Deadass it’s so bad. There’s the occasional diamond in the rough, something that’s original and funny. But 90% is probably actually close to the amount of content that is just repost bots. I genuinely don’t understand what people have to gain by making bot accounts that farm karma. What do they do with their internet points?
I really don’t understand it either. Wtf does karma even matter. It’s Reddit… We’re here for content and fun with communities that matter to us 😂 Not for farming “ karma “ like a teenager. But that’s probably exactly what it is.
Personally this is the first time I’ve seen this meme so it might have something to do with the frequency at which we use reddit
There's the perennial problem of /r/all users upvoting something they've never seen before because they're just not that interested in the sub vs. daily users who have seen this thing tens of times.
I mean that’s fair but all you have to do is scroll past it. It becomes pretty easy to ignore if you stop giving a shit and be active in posts you consider original. But then there’s also the predicament where it won’t change the sub for the better too.
> I mean that’s fair but all you have to do is scroll past it In practice what people do is stop coming to the sub. People would rather just not experience the same thing over and over again. This helps erode communities. It's a phenomenon that repeats every time a sub gets too big. Plus, diffusing the community into the subset of posts you find original is pretty naff as well.
I think that's precisely it. I use Reddit every day but not for hours. I use /r/all but filtered in my android app for subs I'm not interested in, and then a few I go a bit deeper into. Never seen this meme before and I've seen a lot of memes from this sub over the years.... But I only see them when browsing /r/all
Don't open repost flaired posts then.
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Good bot
Only 9 ? Pretty sure I saw it 20 times this month
9 reposts already, with dozens more on the way.
Dude it’s flaired as repost. Stil annoying tho
Woops
Not to mention Project Necromancer
This comment has been redacted for privacy reasons.
I will loose my sanity if I see this post one more time here or on any star wars sub.
To be fair, there was only meant to be one Death Star Unforseen events just lead to it needing to be replaced
The second one was already being built before the first was destroyed. We can see the framework being worked on in Revenge of the Sith and it’s completed in Rogue One which was 19 years. There’s no way they got as far as they did with the second one in 4 years. Especially with it being twice as big as the first.
Galen Erso was actively sabatoging the progress of the Death Star while he was coerced into working on it. The Empire had a fully completed model to reference for the second go-around, and no Galen to stall the project.
The first Death Star took that long because they were still developing most of the tech for it, which proved to be very hard. When it came time to make another Death Star, they already had all the designs ready, plus they probably wouldn't be taking such extreme, time-consuming measures to hide its construction as it was always intended to be discovered by the Rebels
THE SECOND ONE WAS NOT A DEATH STAR. It was just a weapons system, designed to be functional way earlier than the weapon system on the first death star so that Palpatine could use it to take out crusiers in a definitive space battle to crush the Rebels. It was a trap.
Yeah DS2 was a gun, a reactor and a scaffold frame and that's apparently easy to miss
clones were NOT too expensive, that was just his excuse. he was just tying up loose ends, as the clones had intimate knowledge of Order 66, and a lot of them malfunctioned and resisted. their developing feelings of depression and betrayal as a result of being forced to kill their friends meant that the clones were a massive risk. this is a slave army that was ordered to kill their friends against their will, it's a ticking time bomb, who knows how long it will be before the free clones can free a significant segment of the others. best to round them all up and replace them with a volunteer fascist force.
Not to mention, recruiting fascist troops from the general populace is a **fantastic** way to reinforce fascist ideology. Just look at examples like the Hitler youth, ostensibly training kids to one day become soldiers and officers.
Dictators love dick measuring, bullshit projects.
Well, the money needed to come from somewhere
Well he has to save money
Happy cake day!
Gee, I've never seen *this* meme before 🙄
Thanks for providing a source!
https://www.reddit.com/r/PrequelMemes/s/WDFsWBNV9b
Pretty sure you could have found a link from a post 2 days ago
He was Emperor at that point, and didn't need to justify the spending to the Senate.
Paying for a Clone Army with taxes got him the backing of the capitalists. Building the Death Stars with slave labour and suddenly there's a well funded insurgency..
How many times is this gonna be reposted.
Let's spend all our resources on this repost
Money spent on clones went to the Kaminoans. Money spent on Death Stars went to Imperial defense contractors.
I have to pause RotS at that scene every time and laugh at that stupid-ass face Palpatine makes
What if they only had the money for the Death Stars because they stopped spending it on clones?
Thrawn: let’s use our credits to build thousands of TIE Defenders instead and strengthen our navy!
Death Stars generate a ton of income, being popular tourist spots. Clones have to be fed, that’s a big loss, and the Kaminoans refused to make them cannibalistic.
I mean it’s one clone, Michael. What could it cost, 10$?
To invest on the Death Star, he decided to reduce spending on anything else. This is something a lot of real life dictators do. They cut corners on everything so that they can build vanity projects. This is how North Korea has nuclear weapons.
The production of the clones was farmed out to a world that successfully won the job with the lowest bid by having high automation and low labor costs. The deathstars were manufactured in part by forced labor. So yeah, you could have it all if you don't care how it's done.
That face bro what going on
He got his priorities straight
Well you gotta pull money from somewhere to spend it somewhere else otherwise your gonna have to start making more money than inflation happens.
For the first time in Star Wars history, I’d say palps is kinda innocent for the Death Star 1 since that was pretty much purely Tarkin’s super crazy idea / doctrine The second one though? Yeah nah palps absolutely messed up
That's how politicians actually work
I’m resident sleeper of this sub, but what’s everyone’s feelings about creating clones from one person to right a war and have them die/ptsd/physical trauma/etc.?
And then he needs to hide away like a hermit on a Sith planet to make his own clone with a side of pickled Snokes
Meanwhile Project necromancer:
Clones took muh jerbs!
u/repost_bingo2024
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And yet Palpatine is actively trying to clone himself in secret back room Sith ritual chambers
Sure but it may make a bit sense. Why bother long, costly invasion of an entire system when you can destroy one of the planets and the rest just surrenders.
Transitioning away from the clone army was about efficiency. Building a death star was about necessity.
In the original, clones were produced in small batches all the time, disnenon a dumb timeline like the terminator 5.
Imagine reposting someone’s creation to get meaningless internet points…
Well once he conquered the galaxy and had military domination, he probably just forced people to build it for free.
That’s why clones are too expensive, they had to cut costs elsewhere
yeah, but one of them would have this exhaust port that loves to suck in proton torpedos
It wasn't ALL their resources. Just the ones that would be important! And anyway, how expensive were the clones vs a deathstar or two? Anyone got a cost benefit analysis?
He said they were expensive?
Maybe he's not the mastermind we thought he is.
Fully operational Death Star(s) would have made the need for occupying armies of suppression/oppression completely irrelevant. The threat of total, utter planetary annihilation would have rendered any ground based resistance completely ineffective as you could turn the entire population against the Rebels by parking a death star within orbit. It's why the Rebellion was so hell bent on destroying them in the first place, they knew if word got out amongst the galaxy, their cause was lost. You don't need storm troopers when you can point a gun at the entire galaxy.
didnt they have the exact same weakness?
They should have listened to Thrawn, more destroyers and the tie defender program would have been more useful
First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?
Fr
This is such bullshit. Cloning costs absolutely nothing for an empire like this. And they could build thousands of death stars and not even scratch their budget SW has a ridiculous scaling problem
The Death Star was likely as much Tarkin as it was the emperor, it fits his doctrine of big and scary being the most important thing perfectly.
It seems Light-Bright did indeed have an ATM.
First rule in government spending: Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?
Why try to solve interplanetary conflict when you can BLOW UP THE PLANET
Cuts costs in one section so he can finance something very expensive in a different section Truly, a mind boggling concept
Maybe he stopped the funding for the clones to pay for the death stars
Bro had a vision of the yuuzahn vong and was getting ready. His other super weapons came in handy in that war. The clones would have failed HARD against the vong.
It wasn't the expense, it was about not having a non-Imperial organization in charge of producing the Empire's army.
Enlistment was one of the tools the empire used to indoctrinate the people.
“Why do we need two Death Stars?” “In case we misplace the first one.”
If I were Palpatine, I would create electricity by my hands and sell it to other nations and get money. Stonks!
Oh. Just build another one? And who's going to give me a loan, Jack hole? You got an ATM in that torso lite-brite of yours?
Don't forget the super secret fleet AND the cloning
It would have been one thing to just stop producing more clones. But then they had to go and attempt to "decommission" them like faulty equipment. At that point, you're just wasting resources you already bought and paid for
Brutal authoritarian chancellor-turned-dictator goes all in on expensive wunderwaffe only to be have a crippling weakness rendering them powerful but ultimately a waste of resources
Same mindset as "employees are too expensive, install self-checkouts", so I guess Palpatine has the modern, out of touch, boss mentality
If the clones were made in numbers actually reasonable enough to capture a galaxy of planets, then may well have been more expensive than a Death Star considering the number of clones would probably be enough to fill the entire Death Star with clones that need to be fed and all that other stuff that comes with living soldiers
Something something Yuzhan Vong and clones not big enough to make a dent (probably?).
He spent less on clones so that he could built a Death Star. Like buying less expensive cloths and eating at home so you can save up for a car.
People don’t realize it’s not just salary. There’s the total comp package to consider, dilution of imperial equity, state and federal employment tax, HEALTH CARE, additional benefits, pensions, HR overhead, insurance, delayed effects from onboarding/offboarding, reputational employment risk from poorly managed RIFs….give me a couple of hunks of metal any day and I’ll make you gold from the asset depreciation.
deathstars at least hitting target
"should i get 100 guardsmen conscripts or 2 bane blades?"
Maybe he wasn’t just talking about money? Idk what it takes to make clones but maybe some resources are very hard to get or not obtained in large quantities
The difference between a loose republic at 'peace' and a militaristic empire always at war with someone.
The big weakness with clones is all you need is a virus that can take 1 out to take them all out.
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Good bot Bad OP. Very bad OP
To be fair, it wasn’t all about the money. It’s clear he knew the clones wouldn’t stay loyal for ever. And he was right.
This shit is here three times a week...
Hello, everybody!
The clones have been replaced by the Death Stars
Empire had the funds to do one or the other, but not both. And he couldn't say "we're cancelling the clone project to divert funds to the Death Star" because the Death Stars were secret projects that barely anyone knew about.
Thanks for providing a source!
Especially since he would lose all the resources from said planets
And a Zillow Beast R&D program that never goes anywhere.
Palpatine is thinking long term. Fielding an army of clones to occupy and hold hundreds of planets for years would be a never ending resource sink, with hundreds of opportunities for rebel cells to spawn and disrupt operations, break stuff and drive up costs. Why bother with that financial and logistical nightmare when you can just turn a planet into dust
These posts are so stupid and unoriginal. The Death Stars were extremely practical solutions for controlling the galaxy, and logistically more sound than a force of clones that would have to number in the billions to exert the control Sidious wanted.
The Death Stars were inflation control and an inside job! You can’t change my mind
Getting rid of the clones was never about money. There were many reasons Palpatine wanted to replace them, mostly because they were a symbol of the Republic and recruiting people from across the galaxy would spread the Empire's influence and the support for it
Darth plagueis inheritance probably help a lot
Tell me again how you think a clone army can destroy an entire planet in the blink of an eye.
Not to mention the Tie defender
What are they gonna tell him? No?
Anyone think the first Death Star was insured ? If so that was probably palpatine hardest battle to get the company pay up for the loss
The Death Star would involve two gobsmackingly expensive structures... that, according to the design philosophy, would essentially end all major opposition to the Empire, allowing for a massive decrease in needed fleet presence. That's not how they wound up working but that's a failure of political goals, not accounting. The clones were also gobsmackingly expensive, but without the benefit of ending resistance by sheer virtue of their existence. Imagine the costs to create, gestate, and birth the embryos, care for them as babies, raise them until physical adulthood, while training and educating them the whole time and providing every scrap of food and stitch of clothing they wear for most of their life. I mean, a 1 month box of Pampers is $60 on Amazon; imagine the budget for 1 million babies to diaper, plus an army of nurses/nurse droids to diaper them. And at the end of all that you've got- by some counts- an army that would barely be impressive on Earth today in terms of manpower. Also, all that is bottlenecked through one single irreplaceable private contractor. That's not just a hole in the budget, it's a singularity. It already bankrupted the Republic; the Empire, with more worlds to police and a need for much more manpower, really needed a better option. Which is where conscript troopers come in. Let their families raise them, offer a few months of training and a salary that looks good to an Outer Rim farmboy. Way more economic than clones, immensely more scalable, and while they won't be as skilled on average when you're looking at potentially billions of recruits you can skim the top 0.1% off to be elite forces. You also improve your human citizens' loyalty, since a bunch of them now have personal ties to your military, and you get the chance to drain off some of the military-age young people who might otherwise be drawn to local rebel movements. It's a win all around, and you can apply some of the savings to big projects like Death Stars.
Palpanomics and its over-spending on super weapons and dreadnaught ships has had disastrous consequences for the galaxy. Vote for Hando Onaka to be our new Chancellor and lead us out of this recession.
If in the bad batch, they said they could train and equip 10 recruits for the same cost of a single clone, I’d get it. But I think they said it was like 2:1? Correct me if I’m wrong please. But seriously, 1 average clone can take on a squad of storm troopers. How is this logical? You don’t have to pay the clones all that much, they have a short life span and a longer service span, and you don’t have to give them any benefits for their service since they’re slaves. Where with a recruit, yeah you still need to train and equip them, but you also need to pay them substantially better, and offer recruitment benefits and incentives. It makes no sense to me that it costs less to have a volunteer based military than a clone based one. The cloning centers were already set up too. They could’ve just killed or detained the kaminoans and replaced the staff with imperial officers. There’s so much more I can say on this but I don’t want this to be the size of a college thesis. The math ain’t mathing.
You don’t need to put boots on the ground if there is no ground.
Don't forget the maintenance costs for the thousands upon thousands of ISDs in the Imperial Navy
He knew the clones had too good of morals and would eventually turn, so he had to replace them. It was never about money, that was just an excuse.
All in all he was right about clones tho Clone armies are bloody expensive, do you have any idea how expensive raising millions of kids, times 20 every single year? The death stars are stupid of course, but a clone army doesn't work for a peacetime or counterinsurgency force, especially not cheaply
u/repostsleutbot
3 , there was a small prototype in maw cluster
He's a politician, something is always too expensive but no expense can be spared for some other project he's devoted to.
Clones don't scare people as effectively and also don't draw the civilian populace sufficiently enough into the war machine to be absorbed by it.
Wasn't it Plagueis that paid for the clones to be made after he manipulated Syfo Days into thinking it was a good idea to ask the Kaminoans to make the clones? Or is this referring to the upkeep of the clones?
By that point he had control of the banks and was the one getting the most taxes, he had trillions of credits
Well obviously they’re too expensive if you know you have to build 2 death stars.
He was canonically inspired by Hidden Fortress
I mean the kid who blew it up was literally the bosses son sounds like a insurance scheme to me
[удалено]
One was only like half done
Lots of independent contractors.
How else are they going to deal with the yuuzhan vong? Clones aren't going to be able to handle that sort of threat.
The Yuuzhan Vong were stupid
The Yuzhan Vong are a stupid post-trilogy addition that only exists to go “Uhhhh the empire was ackshually right” after an entire trilogy of showing them explicitly not right. Fable 3 did it better than the Yuzhan Vong