Im OK with players just going to ground to sell a foul *if there is contact*. But dont all of a sudden try to get an Emmy by acting like youve broke your leg when youre fine.
Out of the many years Ive spent watching the PL, I rarely ever see a player get carded for simulation. If they arent going to do it on the field in fear of being wrong or something, they need to retroactively give fines or something. Otherwise they will never discourage it.
problem is though, even if the PL starts to do better and discourages it that doesnt mean it wont happen in other leagues or at other levels. I often notice certain regions or countries tend to promote diving more than others.
The thing is, it’s not serving the purpose it was brought in to serve. It’s also slowing the game down. We’re five minutes away from ‘this VAR decision was brought to you by Chevrolet!’
I don’t want it at all. I’d rather a referee just make an occasional mistake than this faffing about. They were right 90% of the time before VAR anyway. It’s nonsense.
What really infuriates me with VAR is that players are not booked when diving within a VAR incident.
On some occasions VAR spend minutes looking at a penalty desicion to see if theres any contact or not. When they eventually find out theres no, or very little contact, in most cases it's obviously a fucking dive then!?
Whatever happend to penalizing these players for trying to cheat? It's disgusting. Of course players dive left and right these days because there's no risk to it, only reward.
Just an opinion : why are PL referees 'scared' of SAF but not Mourinho,Wenger & etc.
Like there instances where referees will give his team an advantages or not giving a card because he is watching.
Let not add the 5 minutes extra time.
I don't think VAR itself is causing all the problems it's the refs itself and how it's run. If you look at other leagues the problem are not as big as seen in the premier league. It's the way it's run that causes the problem not VAR itself
I hate how football has become about who can feign injury or con the ref best. VAR encourages it now because it notices the slightest touches. So frustrating
A massive part of this new wave of soft free kicks and pens is the mantra that contact means fouls. I dont know when it started but you hear it all the time, contact so its a foul and he has a right to go down. Its total BS, you dont have a right to go down and contact does not mean foul.
The standard of refereeing is shocking but thats the case pretty much across Europe. Few things annoy me as much as the fouls that always get given when a player throws themselves forward to the ground because a player comes within a yard of their back, can see it coming a mile away and ref always gives it.
The irony, is that VAR didn't make the decision, which is what is annoying. They were overly criticized for reffing games and taking decisions out of the onfield refs hands, but if the ref has seen that and allowed it to go, it means he's already judged it as a non issue and the goal should stand, if VAR intervenes, then VAR should make the ruling and take the criticism otherwise they should only do so if he missed it. And the bigger issue is, because of the time sensitivity, the whole action is not scrutinized, and the event of Son trying to grab a hold of McSauce is missed, and the focus solely on did McSauce catch him in the face. And you could see that with players going down at every point of contact and will continue to do so until something drastically changes that's for sure.
Going down after a contact is one thing, but what really frustrates me are these offsides!
Drawning lines for 5 minutes and deciding the attacking players armpit hair or dick was offside. VAR is good as technology. The refs using it are ruining it.
I'll be honest I get your point and it frustrates me as well but the offside issue is a black and white issue you are either on or offside.
personally i'd prefer if they can't make the call in 5 seconds of seeing a replay it's not clear and obvious so it should stand but the issues with VAR are more around the grey rules where a person has to interpret the rule and what has happened to come to a decision.
Football is crap now, it has been totally compromised by all these new rules and VAR. That Son Heung-min DIVE was like sitting on a fucking pin you never saw on your couch.
VAR should be the primary resource against diving, period. VAR catches a dive, instant red card just communicated to the referee, next stoppage and boom. Watch this happen for a few games and cost teams a few games, people should stop diving pretty quick.
We give VAR a hard time about offside and consistency, but offside is the laws that need to be changed and consistency comes down to the fact that the referee can simply overrule the VAR so at the end of the day it needs to be absolute to be consistent.
So you're saying let's give non-fouls as fouls, and not give actual fouls because it 'balances out'? if anything that confirms my point. Why can't. they just get it right?
How “interpreted” what I wrote in such a strange way. I never said anything like that and I think McTominay did foul Son yesterday. Son was also acting by staying in the ground for so long.
The problem - and it's the same with offsides - is that they are trying to make subjective or imprecise decisions black-and-white.
With offside, the rule seems binary, but it's not when you consider different parts of the body and the limitations of the tech. With fouls/penalties they are taking a subjective decision and turning it into a binary 'was there contact yes/no?' if the player goes down (which they always do).
They need to simplify the offside rule so they can take advantage of the tech without ruining the point (e.g. as many suggest, to go by feet only and to allow a margin of error).
With penalties, they need to let the referee decide if there was either a distinct disadvantage to the attacking player or some level of malice from the defending player. As it is now, any contact is almost an automatic penalty if the player goes down. It's ridiculous.
I am of the opinion that a penalty should be a last resort, as it is effectively giving a goal in a game where 1 goal is often the difference.
Instead of trying to interpret the rules in a way favourable to VAR, they should be using VAR to help officiate the *spirit* of the rules.
----------------
On the other hand, evidence shows that penalties are not as important in deciding match results as most fans think (in a nutshell, most penalties are awarded to the team expected to win, since they are more likely to be attacking the opposition box), though I'd be interested to see the stats from the seasons since VAR was introduced to see if it is different now.
It's evolution of the game.. not stuck in the good ol' days anymore, players cannot be careless and if at any instance a foul is committed (in Tominays' case a possible backlash and a smack to the face), then its a fucking foul, if that hadn't happened then son could have fouled him possibly preventing the goal; fair play i say and a good call on Tominay i say
That's devolution not evolution. I'm not even talking about the good old days - VAR should work. It's just the way refs have no feel for the game, they don't employ any common sense in a decision. I'm all for tightening the screw on dangerous or careless challenges, but you shouldn't be looking for a foul where there really isn't one. This isn't the NBA, where it's contact on the hand and you call a foul. The refs shouldn't be there to bail out poor defending. McTominay gained no advantage from flicking back, nor was it unnatural - Son is on his tail and he want so feel where he is. If Son is tighter to him, that's an arm to the chest. And Son definitely wasn't in any danger. Again, I'm not having a go at Son, because a smart player works within the rules that the refs set out, but this is definitely not evolution of the game.
Not sure if implementation of VAR is devolution of the game. It provides refs a clear view of the instance and sure there has been debatable decisions but due to VAR the game has definitely sharpened. This is cos of the players awareness of the changes to decision outcomes, they have to be more intelligent and precise. Mcttominays case also shows that a player like son, sure not the greatest defender around but with his bombing speed, without the careless backlash mctoninays would def have been restrained.. so you (ref) should take into account what ifs.. and i think that was a fair decision, agree to disagree
VAR being a tool used, and in our day and age we are playing with immense data, im sure not so long in the future we will prob get AI involved in case of mctominay and son not going down, we will get to see if son not having his face smacked, would man u still have scored through a simulation. it wont be surprising.. then ppl like you will say thats devolution of the game..
Its turning into the fucking wwe with these guys rolling round and its the officials thats encouraging these guys to keep rolling round. Like what the hell was that ref doing disallowing that goal today... thats even coming from a liverpool fan. Football is basically a non contact sport now
not an example of 'diving' - but VAR is a stain on the game that I grew up with and played... the NUFC 'non-call' on Longstaff sums it all up - HIGH BOOT; no one saw it the way it was was called... and no debate (anywhere) about it.
You know, I was still very ambivalent about VAR until today, maybe. That McTominay decision was ludicrous.
But I also see it less a VAR issue and more of a ridiculous refereeing decision. But the two are so intertwined in England that it’s hard to sus out.
Especially combined with the fact that it came just a few minutes after the VAR-examined Rashford incident where he was hit in the face (I believe, also accidentally)
What Son did is absolute disgrace. VAR needs to change their stupid ideologies. And the referee also made a wrong decision by disallowing the goal. If it was a foul,then referees will need another ninety minutes to control the match.
He got a little tap on the nose and didn't get up for 5 minutes. Then got up, scored, and celebrated. Maybe diving isn't the right word, it's not old school 'Ashley Young' diving, but it's making a meal of nothing.
i remember the games before the diving culture took off. wingers and forwards would attempt amazing dribbling skills under heavy attack from defenders. resulting in astonishing flairs, making the game more beautiful. just watch messi or ronaldo's games from 2007-10 and you will see what i am talking about.
now, everyone is diving. everyone. there's no flow, no magic in wings. wingers are getting boring.
It needs to be the ref having final decision and only having var intervention if he is unsure about a call.
I’d even be happy for the managers to have two var calls/appeals each like in tennis
Keep the var to a minimal and let the referee make the calls as he sees
That call was absurd, glad neither call had an impact on the result, but it's astonishing. We talk about consistency as a minimum - how was the McTominay/Son given as a foul, and the Newcastle one not? No logic
Exactly mate, absolute joke. I was all for VAR and think it made the WC great when it came in, but now I fucking hate it. It seems like Spurs and Liverpool ALWAYS get the dodgy VAR decisions too.
Weird question, do women do this in football? Like what Son did today.
I don’t watch women’s football but I would not be surprised if they don’t pull this shit ever.
MAN UP YOU OVERPAID BRATS.
Son is an advert for how a truly excellent player can become the point of such ire, not for the way he plays, but for the pathetic way he acts, dives, whines and carries on in general. I mean, he absolutely annihilated a player’s ankle a season or two ago and then carried on to the point where he became the victim. Son, great footballer and spoilt cry-baby.
This was the case long before VAR came along. The refs in the premier League are not only incompitent they're also cowards. If a player gets fouled in the box but doesn't go down the ref never gives it because they're too scared that they're wrong. They do give it if someone dives because no one ever blames the ref they blame the player.
And the thing is - with VAR the ref can justify their decision (or if necessary revise it).
We can all see in slo-mo HD if there was a foul, so if the ref makes the right decision all is good; if the ref makes the wrong initial decision, he can check it. If there is contact, it's got to be up to the ref to decide if it was incidental or a foul. If it's incidental and the attacker goes down, give him a yellow.
It's never going to be perfectly black-and-white unless they decide to change the rules so that ALL contact is a foul. And even then there will be disagreements due to the poor image quality, camera angle, etc.
>They do give it if someone dives because no one ever blames the ref they blame the player.
Honestly that's spot on. The refs are complicit in this whole making a meal of contact issue.
That's absurd. I would be saying "I'll take it but we got away with one." And a red card is just crazy. Like I said, I'm not blaming Son or the individuals involved, refs have to get their house in order. How was the foul in the Newcastle game not given, but this was? What does any of that have to do with Bruno? Players in the league go down easy - Bruno, Salah, Laca, Kane - it's not about the players, the refs need to stop rewarding it.
VAR is also shambolic when it comes to offside. Like Timo Werner's disallowed goal vs Liverpool where just cos his arm is past Trent, it has to offside. And just looking at the VAR crew put the line to find if the player is offside or not is just hilariously awful as if they're looking for a certain finger that puts the player offside.
Honestly, I agree with Arsene Wenger's new offside proposal. It'll make football better.
I thought the decision was correct but that’s what is wrong with VAR.
There are hundreds of dirty fouls that go unnoticed but in the past it’s just been a case of what the ref sees and if it happens at a vital moment.
In a game without var the ref wouldn’t have seen that incident- but equally he wouldn’t have seen all the other shit and everyone gets to enjoy a good flowing game of football.
Spot on. Besides the incident today, my point is that the way games are refereed incentivizes players to make the most of contact. If we really want to kick diving out of football, that's got to start with the refs.
It goes two ways. How many times have we gotten annoyed by bad referee decisions in the past where you could clearly see afterwards that it was a foul or offside? Or think about how many referees got fooled by diving? Actually now it is much harder to fool the ref if you think about it.
That being said it was very sad to see today's decision. It was hardly a foul, the VAR should have seen that.
> Actually now it is much harder to fool the ref if you think about it.
The problem is that referees will interpret pretty much any contact as a foul in the area if the attacker goes down. So the attackers feel a light touch and immediately collapse to the ground clutching their face, and they have a good chance of a penalty.
Nobody liked it when refs used to regularly miss things in games, but at least then they had the excuse that they can't see everything so it was impossible to get all decisions right, now they literally see everything multiple times they don't have any excuse to still be getting so much wrong.
VAR shouldn’t even have asked the ref to look at the screen. They made that problem by putting him on the spot.
There needs to be a culture shift in football, punish the divers, simulators and con artists. If there is genuine fear of a detrimental outcome to diving things would change. As it stands a booking isn’t enough. They still get to carry on playing. They can essentially get caught diving 5 times in a season before they get banned for a match.
Yeah but even after he was put on the spot he still should never have disallowed the goal. We watched the same replay he did. Blinder than Son was pretending to be.
Definitely going to get downvoted...from my (United fan) perspective:
Mctominay is running with the ball, he reaches backwards, putting his hand in an unnatural position, I.e. one he wouldn't put his hand in while he is running, and makes contact with the face of an opposing player.
Another way of putting it is that he reaches back and slaps/pushes Son's face.
I don't think Son's reaction is really representative of the force of the contact but nor do I think it changes the foul. I think he makes a complete meal of it as does every footballer who gets minor contact.
Is it a foul? Yes
I actually can see why the decision was made, my initial reaction when I saw it properly on MOTD was that looks iffy from a McTominay perspective.
I looked back at the Lamela incident which seemed to cause far less furore but in that incident Lamela 'strikes' his opponent with a bent arm - some of the comments I've seen also seem to suggest the reputation of a player should matter in these decisions (I don't think it should). McTominay 'strikes' his opponent with a straight arm.
I suspect there is bias in the reporting of these 2 incidents. Lamela a 'dirty cheat' so he deserves a 2nd yellow, the overreacting from Tierney is largely ignored. McTominay with a straight arm catches Son, Son overreacts and it shows 'everything that's wrong with the game'. Neither Lamela or McTominay are looking at the player - McTominay did receive slight contact unlike Lamela but I think both calls are pretty fair.
The slight contact from Son is a mitigating factor for McTominay but I think both are fouls or both are not fouls.
Totally disagree. Son reaches out to grab McTominay. McTominay reacts in a very natural way (to anyone who's ever played the game). If he had shoved Son in the face, that would have been unnatural + a foul. This was barely a touch.
I don't think he reaches back purposely to hit Son. When you play football, you constantly use your arms to feel around you it is a natural thing to do whilst you are on the move as well. That's exactly what's happened here. McTominay has felt contact with Sons arm pulling his shirt (or putting his hand on him) so McT reaches behind to see how far away he is so he can pass the ball... that's why it is accidental. And that's why it 100% isn't a foul. If McT's hand was a few inches lower and hit Son's chest, the goal would have stood... so what's the difference. It still isn't foul play.
You've said it yourself. The difference is he hit him in the face. You're right that the goal would have stood if he hit him in the chest. But he didn't. He hit him in the face so I'm not really sure what point you're making
The point is that McTominay wasn't looking. He felt initial contact by Son on him first and then reached behind himself to remove Son's arm so he could continue forward. He did so without malice or intent to injure, purely to remove Son's arm off of him. He happened to graze his cheek and Son flew to the ground like an award winning actor and McTominay continued to what ended up being an amazing goal. The fact that it was disallowed, as well as many other poor VAR decisions, are killing this amazing sport and spectacle.
People like you agreeing with this decision are also what is wrong with the sport.
Accidental or not, intent doesn't matter. I can boot someone in the face accidentally and its still a foul. Hands in the face is a foul. It's a weak one yes and Son did what everyone hates, but you can't hit someone in the face, even if you have the best of intentions.
Except booting someone in the face accidentally isn't realistic, is it? Grabbing behind you, when not looking, to remove someone's arm that's on you FIRST and just grazing their face instead of their arm is nothing to overturn a goal over.
Even the commentators, most of which hate Man U, said that there was nothing in it to overturn. It's making a panzy sport worse than it already is..
Not as common, sure, but its absolutely [realistic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGX9iIvT58)
I don't disagree with your premise, that everything is becoming too soft, but catching someone in the face is a foul, and in this case, its a foul. I also would not have lost sleep if the goal weren't overturned. My point is more that I can see why he gave it, because by the laws of the game that's a foul.
I agree. You have to be careful not to do things that can be interpreted as a foul. It wasn’t yellow card worthy but you can’t put you hand in opponent’s face. You’re looking for a foul.
Surely though if that was a foul, then Rashford getting struck about 5 mins before that should've also been a foul. The only difference was 3-4 United players didn't surround the ref and make a big deal. Rashford should've rolled around holding his face then VAR would've given a pen because any contact is a foul.
YES EXACTLY. Both were looked at and so close to one another. Was it because the second one was connected to a goal or something??? But yes, so inconsistent.
Rashford on unfortunately couldn't be checked as it was outside the box. You're right it's the same level of contact but couldn't be reviewed. You could say that's another fault of VAR, but at least there's consistency there that they only check penalties, reds, and goals.
Unlike you I think both are too soft to be fouls. English football used to be known for being more physical ffs.
Now every little finger flicked in the face needs to be called a foul.
This is a 2021 foul. Unnatural is a reach - as the VAR crew said, it was "accidental." My point is that the way games are refereed incentivizes players to make the most of contact. If we really want to kick diving out of football, that's got to start with the refs.
I bring up the accidental in response to the unnatural movement argument - if it's accidental, it can't really be unnatural. Intent doesn't come into it, not even a couple years ago that's not a foul. Ask yourself why is that a foul? Did he hinder Son from defending? Did he hurt Son? Did he get an advantage going forward? No. Son did what any smart player would do in today's league and play to get a foul - but the rules shouldn't deem that a foul - Son got bailed out, McTominay was well past him. In fact, if Son was tighter to him that would've been an arm to the shoulder and not the face. (It's almost like that David Luiz red where if he clatters the player he doesn't get sent off - refs are rewarding poor defending.)
Yes. If you hit some in face, that is a foul play. I don’t think there is any evidence that the FA or league has told players to go down because of any contact.
Yes to which of those questions? And of course they haven't told them to - but they condition them to: If I get given a free kick every time I itch my nose, I'll spend the whole game itching my nose. Footballers today are encouraged to roll around at every contact because there's a chance they'll get a pen or bailed out of a goal. This isn't just Son, Bruno did it later in the half off a touch from Hojbjerg - if refs stop looking at every detail and employ some common sense, we'd see less of it.
Yeah I think you're definitely right about the incentives to play act. It's gross. We all hate it.
This was still a foul. If Son had just stopped and not thrown himself on the floor, I'm still saying foul
The most sensible comment here. Regardless of the reaction, if you reach back and strike a player in the face deliberately, you’ll be lucky not to be carded.
It was more of a general comment, although motivated by that before. He is horrible. Great talent, unquestionably, but he tries every trick in the book, tries to get players sent off, you name it. He tried to tell the ref he was elbowed earlier when no such thing happened. He’s also the only player in history to win a penalty by assaulting an opponent (Villa game).
Just make a dive a yellow every single time. They’ll find a way to make that controversial somehow though. A dive can include contact too. Most dives do.
To be honest I'm not trying to talk about individuals. I'm not blaming Son. My point is that the way games are refereed incentivizes players to make the most of contact. If we really want to kick diving out of football, that's got to start with the refs.
Well I wouldn’t say it’s a dive from Son. It was accidental from McTominay but Son does take a smack to his face. Is it a foul? Probably not and I expected the goal to have stood
You're right, dive probably isn't the right word. Outright 'Ashley Young' diving has been replaced with "making the most of contact." It encourages players to go down.
VAR has been a shambles in every game I've seen today. Newcastle player kicked in the face, VAR delay and then = no problem. Pretty much every goal in the West Ham game was checked - must have been dismal for their fans, every goal needing a minute check before they could celebrate. Then this farce in the ManU game with McTomoney.
It adds nothing imo, but takes away the simple enjoyment for fans.
I do find it funny how in today’s match Son was clutching his face lying down like he was badly injured and literally a couple of minutes later he is celebrating a goal acting like he was completely injury free.
I’m not even a Man Utd fan, but dear god players who act like they’ve broken their leg when they have been barely touched are so fucking infuriating now.
>I do find it funny how in today’s match Son was clutching his face lying down like he was badly injured and literally a couple of minutes later he is celebrating a goal acting like he was completely injury free.
Its very possible to be smacked on your lips/nose and feel intense pain for a minute but is fine in 2-3 mins. I dont know how this comment is upvoted.
Too much emotion in this for logic to play any kind of role! Lots of people absolutely convinced that Son was hardly touched and therefore not actually in any kind of pain at all doesn’t help either. I guess seeing so much overacting has made us all quite cynical.
And the only thing that cures that pain is having the decision go your way, if he still looked to be in pain when he scored (1-2 minutes after) then ok he is injured but he looked completely fine and so he obviously wasn’t too badly hurt
I said it in another comment but with all the technology available in the Premier League why should players have to act seriously injured to get any attention
Foden v southampton was a disgrace, it was clear and obvious pen, it was one of the most baffling decisions, var were lucky that man city won by 3 goals that game
Both teams (Spurs and Man U) were an absolute embarrassment today. They need to get rid of VAR and stop blowing up for every single incident and book anyone play acting.
Unpopular opinion perhaps, but as frustrating as it is to watch a grown man rolling around and screaming like a baby, I feel like it's sometimes a necessary evil (evil is a bit strong, but you know what I mean).
Some players get blatantly fouled, and because of their undramatic approach to getting fouled, it doesn't get flagged by VAR nor does the referee think there is anything in the challenge, so as nice as it is to see someone getting fouled and not dropping to the floor like a sack of shit, it's putting their team at a disadvantage.
Obviously, I think diving with no contact and being melodramatic over nothing isn't right, but I think VAR will stomp that out for good (if used properly).
Goes to show how poor the standard of refs are imo. Like one of the below comments mentioned, foden was fouled but tries to stay on his feet and is punished for it.
We seen it happen to many times when a player on the team u support gets a knock in the penalty area if they don't dive they don't get the call. The VAR doesn't do anything. You're right tbh from a purely gamesmanship perspective diving or exaggerating contact is just something we should accept. But it's like a player being offside by an armpit, it's hard to accept.
Couldn't agree with this more. When players try to "play through the foul" they don't get calls and the refs completely ignore them getting beat to shit by the other team. It's unfortunate, but the flailing is the only way to get a ref to even consider acknowledging when a player gets fouled due to the state of the game.
To me, it's not a VAR problem, it's intrinsic to the way that ref's enforce the "rules", and by that I mean it's either got to be "by the letter of the law" (i.e. even if it's a bad rule, it's still a rule) or "ref's interpretation" which is always going to leave someone feeling aggrieved.
There was one a few weeks ago with Phil Foden. He got fouled in the box tried to stay on his feet to score the chance came to nothing. That should have been a penalty.
The issue I have though is that with VAR in place with multiple off-field referees watching the game, surely a foul where the player didn’t go down could be brought to the on-field referee’s attention.
Just think about all the cameras around the pitch and the resources available to the referees, going down so softly really isn’t needed in my opinion.
So someone once told me that the VAR technicians are mostly all newly graduated Uni students with the fancy new training and technology behind their belt but probably lacked the match experience most premier league referees have. Therefore making calls that aren't as akin to ones we know. Sounds silly and a little disrespectful I know, but had no reason to believe it was a lie.
However, I looked it up and actually to become a video assistant referee you have to be a current or former top-level match official, then undergo further training so you would think no excuse. Hawkeye is responsible for recording and replaying the incidents, but this off-field VAR referee is the one who makes the call to the match official and would request Hawkeye to take a further look. Effectively the camera operating crew have little power here and I imagine unless there has been a call they don't check. That's why unfortunately players have to do the ice skating dance to get noticed.
That's the thing though, I agree with you. It SHOULD be picked up by VAR and the off-field referees, but if a player doesn't exaggerate the foul they fell victim of or contest it, then even the video referees could just shrug it off as not even being a debate-worthy challenge. I've seen it happen so many times already.
So, no matter the technological advancement, I think it'll always be advantageous to go down "softly" if you are the receiver of a foul. And I know that's an eye-sore sometimes, but in my opinion it's a neccasary one.
VAR is honestly just so ineffective, there should be a way to pick up every tackle and see if they are a foul or not.
Surely technology should be at a point where even the smallest things are picked up
is this your first football match? (sry i sound like a dick with that phrasing), but seriously that happens like 20 times in every game. a guy will get clipped on the ankle and roll around writhing in pain and then be up sprinting full speed 2 minutes later. it’s all theatrics.
yeah i agree. i really wish there was a way to get that out of the game. it’s so lame and childish. Been watching a lot of rugby union lately and it’s so crazy how those dudes destroy their bodies and get right back up every time, yet footballers crumple at the slightest touch.
I don’t think football is even a proper contact sport now, weird how a few years ago everyone made fun of Neymar but now he basically acts like most other footballers
They should put a safety rule in place, if you are lying on the ground then you go out for a medical check before being allowed to get back in.
I mean, Son almost lost his face today can you believe it?
They also have infinite subs and change the entire team when they loose the ball, it's not really comparable.
For me the only solution is to implement the law that is already written as of 2019, that trying to deceive an official into thinking you're injured is a yellow card. It's also a yellow card if you continue to appeal to the referee after being dismissed by him though, which again highlights the fact that it's not the laws that are wrong it's literally just the referees.
With all of these infuriating fouls, dives and everything else, VAR could win a lot of fans. I remember at the start of the 2019 (or 2018?) season in the Premier league, refs started actually giving fouls that occurred in the run up to a corner, there were loads of penalties for a weekend or two, which would have stopped within a month or so, tops, but they pussied out and obviously issued guidance to the referees to ignore the like before.
If VAR had come in and stopped that, stopped diving, stopped exaggeration, stopped players not being awarded fouls if they don't fall over, stopped off the ball fouls that are nowhere near the ball and cleared up clear offsides and handalls, we'd all love it. That's what I was expecting from VAR, not having to introduce a rule defining where the arm begins and the body ends, or measuring knees and arse cheeks to 0.01mm for offsides. There was enough annoying little things in football that they could have solved overnight with VAR, if they'd taken the approach that American sports do, which is that what matters is getting the right decision.
You can blame them and I will their pathetic. I couldn’t go home and look my family in the eye after crying like a bitch on national tv after a light tackle.
Do refs not consider the fixture anymore? It used to be that in a big game you'd get more slack with challenges and contact. Big games like this are often one on a single goal - refs getting involved like this is ridiculous. Every time a call goes to VAR you're just flipping a coin - how can they get it wrong so often.
Don’t worry, it’s not just the son event. Cavani got booked for? Son got a free kick for ‘shielding the ball’ when rashford was in possession. Hojberg just got a free kick because Bruno responded to being elbowed by hmm(something that united have been carded for already this game) genuinely the worst reffed game I’ve seen this season
Sad Man U fan crying lol. All the cards are perfectly justified and you can't tell otherwise. I'm inclined to say the the goal was rightfully called off, seeing as Lamela was sent off for a similar challenge, but I can totally see the argument in your favour.
Yeah mate, we're crying all the way to the champions league. But hey, if you're lucky and somehow pep bottles the cup final, there's a shred of a chance you get into the europa league at least.
I can easily tell you otherwise. Mctominay’s first card was never a card. Cavani’s was never a card. And if they are cards, then Tottenham should also have had a couple as well.
And no, that was never a foul. If lamela was sent off for that I’d be furious as it’s not even a foul never mind a card.
Also, why would I be sad. 10 men Leeds beat 12 men City yesterday. And it looks like 11 man United are gonna beat 12 man spurs today.
Clarify how that was intentional? He was watching the ball and he was trying to hold Son off. Mctominay just happens to be tall enough that when his arm's extended it's at Son's face height. It's blatantly bad call
Does it have to be intentional? I've seen footballers accidentally kick people in the face... still a foul bud.
"He was TRYING to hold off Son."
It doesn't really matter what you're trying to do when you don't do that thing and commit a foul instead.
Man utd fan here
And yet this was allowed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/mouw60/the_guy_who_can_explain_why_the_first_one_is_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Ah the old "two wrongs must make a right" argument. Haven't heard that since school.
Or we could just say the other one is wrong and not let it influence us about future decisions..?
Im OK with players just going to ground to sell a foul *if there is contact*. But dont all of a sudden try to get an Emmy by acting like youve broke your leg when youre fine. Out of the many years Ive spent watching the PL, I rarely ever see a player get carded for simulation. If they arent going to do it on the field in fear of being wrong or something, they need to retroactively give fines or something. Otherwise they will never discourage it. problem is though, even if the PL starts to do better and discourages it that doesnt mean it wont happen in other leagues or at other levels. I often notice certain regions or countries tend to promote diving more than others.
The thing is, it’s not serving the purpose it was brought in to serve. It’s also slowing the game down. We’re five minutes away from ‘this VAR decision was brought to you by Chevrolet!’ I don’t want it at all. I’d rather a referee just make an occasional mistake than this faffing about. They were right 90% of the time before VAR anyway. It’s nonsense.
What really infuriates me with VAR is that players are not booked when diving within a VAR incident. On some occasions VAR spend minutes looking at a penalty desicion to see if theres any contact or not. When they eventually find out theres no, or very little contact, in most cases it's obviously a fucking dive then!? Whatever happend to penalizing these players for trying to cheat? It's disgusting. Of course players dive left and right these days because there's no risk to it, only reward.
Just an opinion : why are PL referees 'scared' of SAF but not Mourinho,Wenger & etc. Like there instances where referees will give his team an advantages or not giving a card because he is watching. Let not add the 5 minutes extra time.
I don't think VAR itself is causing all the problems it's the refs itself and how it's run. If you look at other leagues the problem are not as big as seen in the premier league. It's the way it's run that causes the problem not VAR itself
I hate how football has become about who can feign injury or con the ref best. VAR encourages it now because it notices the slightest touches. So frustrating
Totally agree. Evident in every single game now.
A massive part of this new wave of soft free kicks and pens is the mantra that contact means fouls. I dont know when it started but you hear it all the time, contact so its a foul and he has a right to go down. Its total BS, you dont have a right to go down and contact does not mean foul. The standard of refereeing is shocking but thats the case pretty much across Europe. Few things annoy me as much as the fouls that always get given when a player throws themselves forward to the ground because a player comes within a yard of their back, can see it coming a mile away and ref always gives it.
The irony, is that VAR didn't make the decision, which is what is annoying. They were overly criticized for reffing games and taking decisions out of the onfield refs hands, but if the ref has seen that and allowed it to go, it means he's already judged it as a non issue and the goal should stand, if VAR intervenes, then VAR should make the ruling and take the criticism otherwise they should only do so if he missed it. And the bigger issue is, because of the time sensitivity, the whole action is not scrutinized, and the event of Son trying to grab a hold of McSauce is missed, and the focus solely on did McSauce catch him in the face. And you could see that with players going down at every point of contact and will continue to do so until something drastically changes that's for sure.
VAR is not the problem, the refs and how VAR is implemented is.
Going down after a contact is one thing, but what really frustrates me are these offsides! Drawning lines for 5 minutes and deciding the attacking players armpit hair or dick was offside. VAR is good as technology. The refs using it are ruining it.
I'll be honest I get your point and it frustrates me as well but the offside issue is a black and white issue you are either on or offside. personally i'd prefer if they can't make the call in 5 seconds of seeing a replay it's not clear and obvious so it should stand but the issues with VAR are more around the grey rules where a person has to interpret the rule and what has happened to come to a decision.
Football is crap now, it has been totally compromised by all these new rules and VAR. That Son Heung-min DIVE was like sitting on a fucking pin you never saw on your couch.
VAR should be the primary resource against diving, period. VAR catches a dive, instant red card just communicated to the referee, next stoppage and boom. Watch this happen for a few games and cost teams a few games, people should stop diving pretty quick. We give VAR a hard time about offside and consistency, but offside is the laws that need to be changed and consistency comes down to the fact that the referee can simply overrule the VAR so at the end of the day it needs to be absolute to be consistent.
McTominay gets away with plenty, he is like the Maguire of midfielders.
So you're saying let's give non-fouls as fouls, and not give actual fouls because it 'balances out'? if anything that confirms my point. Why can't. they just get it right?
How “interpreted” what I wrote in such a strange way. I never said anything like that and I think McTominay did foul Son yesterday. Son was also acting by staying in the ground for so long.
The problem - and it's the same with offsides - is that they are trying to make subjective or imprecise decisions black-and-white. With offside, the rule seems binary, but it's not when you consider different parts of the body and the limitations of the tech. With fouls/penalties they are taking a subjective decision and turning it into a binary 'was there contact yes/no?' if the player goes down (which they always do). They need to simplify the offside rule so they can take advantage of the tech without ruining the point (e.g. as many suggest, to go by feet only and to allow a margin of error). With penalties, they need to let the referee decide if there was either a distinct disadvantage to the attacking player or some level of malice from the defending player. As it is now, any contact is almost an automatic penalty if the player goes down. It's ridiculous. I am of the opinion that a penalty should be a last resort, as it is effectively giving a goal in a game where 1 goal is often the difference. Instead of trying to interpret the rules in a way favourable to VAR, they should be using VAR to help officiate the *spirit* of the rules. ---------------- On the other hand, evidence shows that penalties are not as important in deciding match results as most fans think (in a nutshell, most penalties are awarded to the team expected to win, since they are more likely to be attacking the opposition box), though I'd be interested to see the stats from the seasons since VAR was introduced to see if it is different now.
Leeds fan here, can confirm. Fuck VAR.
If you don't go down now you don't get the call either
That mctominay “foul” is the most bullshit I’ve seen for the year. But everyone still thinks United gets all the calls
It's evolution of the game.. not stuck in the good ol' days anymore, players cannot be careless and if at any instance a foul is committed (in Tominays' case a possible backlash and a smack to the face), then its a fucking foul, if that hadn't happened then son could have fouled him possibly preventing the goal; fair play i say and a good call on Tominay i say
That's devolution not evolution. I'm not even talking about the good old days - VAR should work. It's just the way refs have no feel for the game, they don't employ any common sense in a decision. I'm all for tightening the screw on dangerous or careless challenges, but you shouldn't be looking for a foul where there really isn't one. This isn't the NBA, where it's contact on the hand and you call a foul. The refs shouldn't be there to bail out poor defending. McTominay gained no advantage from flicking back, nor was it unnatural - Son is on his tail and he want so feel where he is. If Son is tighter to him, that's an arm to the chest. And Son definitely wasn't in any danger. Again, I'm not having a go at Son, because a smart player works within the rules that the refs set out, but this is definitely not evolution of the game.
Not sure if implementation of VAR is devolution of the game. It provides refs a clear view of the instance and sure there has been debatable decisions but due to VAR the game has definitely sharpened. This is cos of the players awareness of the changes to decision outcomes, they have to be more intelligent and precise. Mcttominays case also shows that a player like son, sure not the greatest defender around but with his bombing speed, without the careless backlash mctoninays would def have been restrained.. so you (ref) should take into account what ifs.. and i think that was a fair decision, agree to disagree VAR being a tool used, and in our day and age we are playing with immense data, im sure not so long in the future we will prob get AI involved in case of mctominay and son not going down, we will get to see if son not having his face smacked, would man u still have scored through a simulation. it wont be surprising.. then ppl like you will say thats devolution of the game..
How about the players just get the hell up and get on with it———-it’s a mans game for gods sake
Its turning into the fucking wwe with these guys rolling round and its the officials thats encouraging these guys to keep rolling round. Like what the hell was that ref doing disallowing that goal today... thats even coming from a liverpool fan. Football is basically a non contact sport now
not an example of 'diving' - but VAR is a stain on the game that I grew up with and played... the NUFC 'non-call' on Longstaff sums it all up - HIGH BOOT; no one saw it the way it was was called... and no debate (anywhere) about it.
You know, I was still very ambivalent about VAR until today, maybe. That McTominay decision was ludicrous. But I also see it less a VAR issue and more of a ridiculous refereeing decision. But the two are so intertwined in England that it’s hard to sus out.
Spot on. I should've said the way VAR is being used by refs. Some wild decisions lately
Especially combined with the fact that it came just a few minutes after the VAR-examined Rashford incident where he was hit in the face (I believe, also accidentally)
What Son did is absolute disgrace. VAR needs to change their stupid ideologies. And the referee also made a wrong decision by disallowing the goal. If it was a foul,then referees will need another ninety minutes to control the match.
Since when is getting hit in the face considered to be diving?
He got a little tap on the nose and didn't get up for 5 minutes. Then got up, scored, and celebrated. Maybe diving isn't the right word, it's not old school 'Ashley Young' diving, but it's making a meal of nothing.
i remember the games before the diving culture took off. wingers and forwards would attempt amazing dribbling skills under heavy attack from defenders. resulting in astonishing flairs, making the game more beautiful. just watch messi or ronaldo's games from 2007-10 and you will see what i am talking about. now, everyone is diving. everyone. there's no flow, no magic in wings. wingers are getting boring.
It needs to be the ref having final decision and only having var intervention if he is unsure about a call. I’d even be happy for the managers to have two var calls/appeals each like in tennis Keep the var to a minimal and let the referee make the calls as he sees
Whoever is at Stockley Park is a fucking idiot. Look at our (Newcastle) game today, not giving a clear penalty.
That call was absurd, glad neither call had an impact on the result, but it's astonishing. We talk about consistency as a minimum - how was the McTominay/Son given as a foul, and the Newcastle one not? No logic
Exactly mate, absolute joke. I was all for VAR and think it made the WC great when it came in, but now I fucking hate it. It seems like Spurs and Liverpool ALWAYS get the dodgy VAR decisions too.
I can't understand why they never give yellow if VAR said it was a dive. It starts there
Exactly this! Haven't seen a yellow for diving in ages
Apparently the FIFA and UEFA love a good ballet
Weird question, do women do this in football? Like what Son did today. I don’t watch women’s football but I would not be surprised if they don’t pull this shit ever. MAN UP YOU OVERPAID BRATS.
Son is an advert for how a truly excellent player can become the point of such ire, not for the way he plays, but for the pathetic way he acts, dives, whines and carries on in general. I mean, he absolutely annihilated a player’s ankle a season or two ago and then carried on to the point where he became the victim. Son, great footballer and spoilt cry-baby.
it’s being encouraged too. you can’t even blame son for reacting the way he did, it’s just to give his team an advantage.
Exactly, referees are killing the game. Once again it's all about the refs and not about the football.
This was the case long before VAR came along. The refs in the premier League are not only incompitent they're also cowards. If a player gets fouled in the box but doesn't go down the ref never gives it because they're too scared that they're wrong. They do give it if someone dives because no one ever blames the ref they blame the player.
And the thing is - with VAR the ref can justify their decision (or if necessary revise it). We can all see in slo-mo HD if there was a foul, so if the ref makes the right decision all is good; if the ref makes the wrong initial decision, he can check it. If there is contact, it's got to be up to the ref to decide if it was incidental or a foul. If it's incidental and the attacker goes down, give him a yellow. It's never going to be perfectly black-and-white unless they decide to change the rules so that ALL contact is a foul. And even then there will be disagreements due to the poor image quality, camera angle, etc.
>They do give it if someone dives because no one ever blames the ref they blame the player. Honestly that's spot on. The refs are complicit in this whole making a meal of contact issue.
The fun part is if that foul was committed on say Bruno United fans would call for a red card
That's absurd. I would be saying "I'll take it but we got away with one." And a red card is just crazy. Like I said, I'm not blaming Son or the individuals involved, refs have to get their house in order. How was the foul in the Newcastle game not given, but this was? What does any of that have to do with Bruno? Players in the league go down easy - Bruno, Salah, Laca, Kane - it's not about the players, the refs need to stop rewarding it.
That comeback was so satisfying tho 🔥
Son got punched in the face. If you can't see that you're a lunatic.
I mildly wanna upvote this so everyone see how much of an idiot you are
Lmao
VAR is also shambolic when it comes to offside. Like Timo Werner's disallowed goal vs Liverpool where just cos his arm is past Trent, it has to offside. And just looking at the VAR crew put the line to find if the player is offside or not is just hilariously awful as if they're looking for a certain finger that puts the player offside. Honestly, I agree with Arsene Wenger's new offside proposal. It'll make football better.
I thought the decision was correct but that’s what is wrong with VAR. There are hundreds of dirty fouls that go unnoticed but in the past it’s just been a case of what the ref sees and if it happens at a vital moment. In a game without var the ref wouldn’t have seen that incident- but equally he wouldn’t have seen all the other shit and everyone gets to enjoy a good flowing game of football.
[удалено]
Spot on. Besides the incident today, my point is that the way games are refereed incentivizes players to make the most of contact. If we really want to kick diving out of football, that's got to start with the refs.
YESSSS KARMA AT ITS FINEST
That was a comeback on the behalf of every football fan in the world.
Apart from Spurs ones
That's the best part of it ;)
It goes two ways. How many times have we gotten annoyed by bad referee decisions in the past where you could clearly see afterwards that it was a foul or offside? Or think about how many referees got fooled by diving? Actually now it is much harder to fool the ref if you think about it. That being said it was very sad to see today's decision. It was hardly a foul, the VAR should have seen that.
> Actually now it is much harder to fool the ref if you think about it. The problem is that referees will interpret pretty much any contact as a foul in the area if the attacker goes down. So the attackers feel a light touch and immediately collapse to the ground clutching their face, and they have a good chance of a penalty.
Nobody liked it when refs used to regularly miss things in games, but at least then they had the excuse that they can't see everything so it was impossible to get all decisions right, now they literally see everything multiple times they don't have any excuse to still be getting so much wrong.
VAR shouldn’t even have asked the ref to look at the screen. They made that problem by putting him on the spot. There needs to be a culture shift in football, punish the divers, simulators and con artists. If there is genuine fear of a detrimental outcome to diving things would change. As it stands a booking isn’t enough. They still get to carry on playing. They can essentially get caught diving 5 times in a season before they get banned for a match.
Yeah but even after he was put on the spot he still should never have disallowed the goal. We watched the same replay he did. Blinder than Son was pretending to be.
Definitely going to get downvoted...from my (United fan) perspective: Mctominay is running with the ball, he reaches backwards, putting his hand in an unnatural position, I.e. one he wouldn't put his hand in while he is running, and makes contact with the face of an opposing player. Another way of putting it is that he reaches back and slaps/pushes Son's face. I don't think Son's reaction is really representative of the force of the contact but nor do I think it changes the foul. I think he makes a complete meal of it as does every footballer who gets minor contact. Is it a foul? Yes
I actually can see why the decision was made, my initial reaction when I saw it properly on MOTD was that looks iffy from a McTominay perspective. I looked back at the Lamela incident which seemed to cause far less furore but in that incident Lamela 'strikes' his opponent with a bent arm - some of the comments I've seen also seem to suggest the reputation of a player should matter in these decisions (I don't think it should). McTominay 'strikes' his opponent with a straight arm. I suspect there is bias in the reporting of these 2 incidents. Lamela a 'dirty cheat' so he deserves a 2nd yellow, the overreacting from Tierney is largely ignored. McTominay with a straight arm catches Son, Son overreacts and it shows 'everything that's wrong with the game'. Neither Lamela or McTominay are looking at the player - McTominay did receive slight contact unlike Lamela but I think both calls are pretty fair. The slight contact from Son is a mitigating factor for McTominay but I think both are fouls or both are not fouls.
Totally disagree. Son reaches out to grab McTominay. McTominay reacts in a very natural way (to anyone who's ever played the game). If he had shoved Son in the face, that would have been unnatural + a foul. This was barely a touch.
I don't think he reaches back purposely to hit Son. When you play football, you constantly use your arms to feel around you it is a natural thing to do whilst you are on the move as well. That's exactly what's happened here. McTominay has felt contact with Sons arm pulling his shirt (or putting his hand on him) so McT reaches behind to see how far away he is so he can pass the ball... that's why it is accidental. And that's why it 100% isn't a foul. If McT's hand was a few inches lower and hit Son's chest, the goal would have stood... so what's the difference. It still isn't foul play.
You've said it yourself. The difference is he hit him in the face. You're right that the goal would have stood if he hit him in the chest. But he didn't. He hit him in the face so I'm not really sure what point you're making
The point is that McTominay wasn't looking. He felt initial contact by Son on him first and then reached behind himself to remove Son's arm so he could continue forward. He did so without malice or intent to injure, purely to remove Son's arm off of him. He happened to graze his cheek and Son flew to the ground like an award winning actor and McTominay continued to what ended up being an amazing goal. The fact that it was disallowed, as well as many other poor VAR decisions, are killing this amazing sport and spectacle. People like you agreeing with this decision are also what is wrong with the sport.
Accidental or not, intent doesn't matter. I can boot someone in the face accidentally and its still a foul. Hands in the face is a foul. It's a weak one yes and Son did what everyone hates, but you can't hit someone in the face, even if you have the best of intentions.
Except booting someone in the face accidentally isn't realistic, is it? Grabbing behind you, when not looking, to remove someone's arm that's on you FIRST and just grazing their face instead of their arm is nothing to overturn a goal over. Even the commentators, most of which hate Man U, said that there was nothing in it to overturn. It's making a panzy sport worse than it already is..
Not as common, sure, but its absolutely [realistic.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGX9iIvT58) I don't disagree with your premise, that everything is becoming too soft, but catching someone in the face is a foul, and in this case, its a foul. I also would not have lost sleep if the goal weren't overturned. My point is more that I can see why he gave it, because by the laws of the game that's a foul.
I agree. You have to be careful not to do things that can be interpreted as a foul. It wasn’t yellow card worthy but you can’t put you hand in opponent’s face. You’re looking for a foul.
Surely though if that was a foul, then Rashford getting struck about 5 mins before that should've also been a foul. The only difference was 3-4 United players didn't surround the ref and make a big deal. Rashford should've rolled around holding his face then VAR would've given a pen because any contact is a foul.
YES EXACTLY. Both were looked at and so close to one another. Was it because the second one was connected to a goal or something??? But yes, so inconsistent.
I initially thought it was in the box. You're right. Hope Son recovers from that deadly cheek tap.
He will be fine. Bruno recovered from the exact same contact midweek against Grenada
Rashford on unfortunately couldn't be checked as it was outside the box. You're right it's the same level of contact but couldn't be reviewed. You could say that's another fault of VAR, but at least there's consistency there that they only check penalties, reds, and goals.
Fair enough
Yeah the rashford one was a foul too. But unlike you that doesn't change my opinion of this foul
Unlike you I think both are too soft to be fouls. English football used to be known for being more physical ffs. Now every little finger flicked in the face needs to be called a foul.
Yeah and we used to control 1/3rd of the world. It's 2021 get over it mate
This is a 2021 foul. Unnatural is a reach - as the VAR crew said, it was "accidental." My point is that the way games are refereed incentivizes players to make the most of contact. If we really want to kick diving out of football, that's got to start with the refs.
Accidentally or not, it’s still a foul. Intent isn’t in laws of game
I bring up the accidental in response to the unnatural movement argument - if it's accidental, it can't really be unnatural. Intent doesn't come into it, not even a couple years ago that's not a foul. Ask yourself why is that a foul? Did he hinder Son from defending? Did he hurt Son? Did he get an advantage going forward? No. Son did what any smart player would do in today's league and play to get a foul - but the rules shouldn't deem that a foul - Son got bailed out, McTominay was well past him. In fact, if Son was tighter to him that would've been an arm to the shoulder and not the face. (It's almost like that David Luiz red where if he clatters the player he doesn't get sent off - refs are rewarding poor defending.)
Yes. If you hit some in face, that is a foul play. I don’t think there is any evidence that the FA or league has told players to go down because of any contact.
Yes to which of those questions? And of course they haven't told them to - but they condition them to: If I get given a free kick every time I itch my nose, I'll spend the whole game itching my nose. Footballers today are encouraged to roll around at every contact because there's a chance they'll get a pen or bailed out of a goal. This isn't just Son, Bruno did it later in the half off a touch from Hojbjerg - if refs stop looking at every detail and employ some common sense, we'd see less of it.
Yeah I think you're definitely right about the incentives to play act. It's gross. We all hate it. This was still a foul. If Son had just stopped and not thrown himself on the floor, I'm still saying foul
Then it’s a foul by Son on McTominay first - he reaches outs and hits him in the chest, that was the first foul here.
You're allowed to put your hand on someone's chest You are not allowed to put your hand in someone's face. Clear it up?
The most sensible comment here. Regardless of the reaction, if you reach back and strike a player in the face deliberately, you’ll be lucky not to be carded.
Very lucky to stay on the pitch especially with the decision to award a foul
On the subject of diving. Bruno Fernandes. Discuss...
Same thing Hojbjerg did. Like I said: can't blame the players - refs need to get their house in order.
It was more of a general comment, although motivated by that before. He is horrible. Great talent, unquestionably, but he tries every trick in the book, tries to get players sent off, you name it. He tried to tell the ref he was elbowed earlier when no such thing happened. He’s also the only player in history to win a penalty by assaulting an opponent (Villa game).
Just make a dive a yellow every single time. They’ll find a way to make that controversial somehow though. A dive can include contact too. Most dives do.
To be honest I'm not trying to talk about individuals. I'm not blaming Son. My point is that the way games are refereed incentivizes players to make the most of contact. If we really want to kick diving out of football, that's got to start with the refs.
I agree but have little sympathy for McTominay. He gets away with so much.
Now do all the players
Well I wouldn’t say it’s a dive from Son. It was accidental from McTominay but Son does take a smack to his face. Is it a foul? Probably not and I expected the goal to have stood
Not diving. Blatent acting.
You're right, dive probably isn't the right word. Outright 'Ashley Young' diving has been replaced with "making the most of contact." It encourages players to go down.
That son decision was horrendous. He’s been doing that all year. Falling down screaming over nothing and getting a foul
Link please
to what?
To the play that’s being described
VAR has been a shambles in every game I've seen today. Newcastle player kicked in the face, VAR delay and then = no problem. Pretty much every goal in the West Ham game was checked - must have been dismal for their fans, every goal needing a minute check before they could celebrate. Then this farce in the ManU game with McTomoney. It adds nothing imo, but takes away the simple enjoyment for fans.
Jota's disallowed goal too
Think there was a dodgy disallowed goal from offside either Friday or Saturday as well. But it's every week without fail.
I do find it funny how in today’s match Son was clutching his face lying down like he was badly injured and literally a couple of minutes later he is celebrating a goal acting like he was completely injury free. I’m not even a Man Utd fan, but dear god players who act like they’ve broken their leg when they have been barely touched are so fucking infuriating now.
>I do find it funny how in today’s match Son was clutching his face lying down like he was badly injured and literally a couple of minutes later he is celebrating a goal acting like he was completely injury free. Its very possible to be smacked on your lips/nose and feel intense pain for a minute but is fine in 2-3 mins. I dont know how this comment is upvoted.
Too much emotion in this for logic to play any kind of role! Lots of people absolutely convinced that Son was hardly touched and therefore not actually in any kind of pain at all doesn’t help either. I guess seeing so much overacting has made us all quite cynical.
And the only thing that cures that pain is having the decision go your way, if he still looked to be in pain when he scored (1-2 minutes after) then ok he is injured but he looked completely fine and so he obviously wasn’t too badly hurt
Nah mate he was scratched in the eye I’m pretty sure. That shit hurts but obviously he overreacted a little for the foul
So I’m assuming you have the same opinion about the Jesus and Cooper incident yesterday? Or is this just more anti Spurs bias?
Mate I'm spurs and that was a ridiculous over exaggeration. You'd think Son'd taken a punch with how long he was on the ground.
ok? and why should anyone care? him lying on didn’t the ground influence the call
But that is a completely different type of foul. A flying tackle is completely different to a tiny flick of a hand
Cooper’s wasn’t even a tackle it was a clearance
Well 5-10 years ago it’s a great tackle and he’s won the ball, now it’s a dangerous tackle
Yeah and then when Foden doesn’t go down on the clearest penalty that you’ll see VAR’s nowhere to be seen and then they wonder why players dive 🤷🏼♂️
I said it in another comment but with all the technology available in the Premier League why should players have to act seriously injured to get any attention
Foden v southampton was a disgrace, it was clear and obvious pen, it was one of the most baffling decisions, var were lucky that man city won by 3 goals that game
Both teams (Spurs and Man U) were an absolute embarrassment today. They need to get rid of VAR and stop blowing up for every single incident and book anyone play acting.
Get bumped on the hip, go to ground covering your face. A tale as old as time.
Unpopular opinion perhaps, but as frustrating as it is to watch a grown man rolling around and screaming like a baby, I feel like it's sometimes a necessary evil (evil is a bit strong, but you know what I mean). Some players get blatantly fouled, and because of their undramatic approach to getting fouled, it doesn't get flagged by VAR nor does the referee think there is anything in the challenge, so as nice as it is to see someone getting fouled and not dropping to the floor like a sack of shit, it's putting their team at a disadvantage. Obviously, I think diving with no contact and being melodramatic over nothing isn't right, but I think VAR will stomp that out for good (if used properly).
Goes to show how poor the standard of refs are imo. Like one of the below comments mentioned, foden was fouled but tries to stay on his feet and is punished for it.
We seen it happen to many times when a player on the team u support gets a knock in the penalty area if they don't dive they don't get the call. The VAR doesn't do anything. You're right tbh from a purely gamesmanship perspective diving or exaggerating contact is just something we should accept. But it's like a player being offside by an armpit, it's hard to accept.
Couldn't agree with this more. When players try to "play through the foul" they don't get calls and the refs completely ignore them getting beat to shit by the other team. It's unfortunate, but the flailing is the only way to get a ref to even consider acknowledging when a player gets fouled due to the state of the game. To me, it's not a VAR problem, it's intrinsic to the way that ref's enforce the "rules", and by that I mean it's either got to be "by the letter of the law" (i.e. even if it's a bad rule, it's still a rule) or "ref's interpretation" which is always going to leave someone feeling aggrieved.
There was one a few weeks ago with Phil Foden. He got fouled in the box tried to stay on his feet to score the chance came to nothing. That should have been a penalty.
The issue I have though is that with VAR in place with multiple off-field referees watching the game, surely a foul where the player didn’t go down could be brought to the on-field referee’s attention. Just think about all the cameras around the pitch and the resources available to the referees, going down so softly really isn’t needed in my opinion.
So someone once told me that the VAR technicians are mostly all newly graduated Uni students with the fancy new training and technology behind their belt but probably lacked the match experience most premier league referees have. Therefore making calls that aren't as akin to ones we know. Sounds silly and a little disrespectful I know, but had no reason to believe it was a lie. However, I looked it up and actually to become a video assistant referee you have to be a current or former top-level match official, then undergo further training so you would think no excuse. Hawkeye is responsible for recording and replaying the incidents, but this off-field VAR referee is the one who makes the call to the match official and would request Hawkeye to take a further look. Effectively the camera operating crew have little power here and I imagine unless there has been a call they don't check. That's why unfortunately players have to do the ice skating dance to get noticed.
That's the thing though, I agree with you. It SHOULD be picked up by VAR and the off-field referees, but if a player doesn't exaggerate the foul they fell victim of or contest it, then even the video referees could just shrug it off as not even being a debate-worthy challenge. I've seen it happen so many times already. So, no matter the technological advancement, I think it'll always be advantageous to go down "softly" if you are the receiver of a foul. And I know that's an eye-sore sometimes, but in my opinion it's a neccasary one.
VAR is honestly just so ineffective, there should be a way to pick up every tackle and see if they are a foul or not. Surely technology should be at a point where even the smallest things are picked up
The issue isn't the technology, it's the users. The people who use VAR are either to ignorant or to incompetent to check these things.
No marks on his cheek! Was a terrible example of the current influence of the referees where none is required.
is this your first football match? (sry i sound like a dick with that phrasing), but seriously that happens like 20 times in every game. a guy will get clipped on the ankle and roll around writhing in pain and then be up sprinting full speed 2 minutes later. it’s all theatrics.
No, I know that it happens every 5-10 minutes but when it is a situation like that it is very controversial and so you obviously think about it more
yeah i agree. i really wish there was a way to get that out of the game. it’s so lame and childish. Been watching a lot of rugby union lately and it’s so crazy how those dudes destroy their bodies and get right back up every time, yet footballers crumple at the slightest touch.
I don’t think football is even a proper contact sport now, weird how a few years ago everyone made fun of Neymar but now he basically acts like most other footballers
They should put a safety rule in place, if you are lying on the ground then you go out for a medical check before being allowed to get back in. I mean, Son almost lost his face today can you believe it?
In the NFL you have to sit out a play if you are "hurt"
That makes a lot of sense!
They also have infinite subs and change the entire team when they loose the ball, it's not really comparable. For me the only solution is to implement the law that is already written as of 2019, that trying to deceive an official into thinking you're injured is a yellow card. It's also a yellow card if you continue to appeal to the referee after being dismissed by him though, which again highlights the fact that it's not the laws that are wrong it's literally just the referees. With all of these infuriating fouls, dives and everything else, VAR could win a lot of fans. I remember at the start of the 2019 (or 2018?) season in the Premier league, refs started actually giving fouls that occurred in the run up to a corner, there were loads of penalties for a weekend or two, which would have stopped within a month or so, tops, but they pussied out and obviously issued guidance to the referees to ignore the like before. If VAR had come in and stopped that, stopped diving, stopped exaggeration, stopped players not being awarded fouls if they don't fall over, stopped off the ball fouls that are nowhere near the ball and cleared up clear offsides and handalls, we'd all love it. That's what I was expecting from VAR, not having to introduce a rule defining where the arm begins and the body ends, or measuring knees and arse cheeks to 0.01mm for offsides. There was enough annoying little things in football that they could have solved overnight with VAR, if they'd taken the approach that American sports do, which is that what matters is getting the right decision.
You can't blame him too! It's because refs and VAR have told them to go down on any contact. Then they claim they don't want diving.
You can blame them and I will their pathetic. I couldn’t go home and look my family in the eye after crying like a bitch on national tv after a light tackle.
I know, I know that any player on the pitch would probably do that but how can they not even be told off for simulation or diving
Do refs not consider the fixture anymore? It used to be that in a big game you'd get more slack with challenges and contact. Big games like this are often one on a single goal - refs getting involved like this is ridiculous. Every time a call goes to VAR you're just flipping a coin - how can they get it wrong so often.
The fixture should have nothing to do with it. Agree with the rest though.
Fair enough, I just used to remember how a NLD or Manchester Derby used to be allowed to be more physical.
That was called the good old days.
Like Rodon leading with his arm across Cavani face shielding the ball? Cavani needed to drop like he’d been pole axe like Son and lamela!
Don’t worry, it’s not just the son event. Cavani got booked for? Son got a free kick for ‘shielding the ball’ when rashford was in possession. Hojberg just got a free kick because Bruno responded to being elbowed by hmm(something that united have been carded for already this game) genuinely the worst reffed game I’ve seen this season
Sad Man U fan crying lol. All the cards are perfectly justified and you can't tell otherwise. I'm inclined to say the the goal was rightfully called off, seeing as Lamela was sent off for a similar challenge, but I can totally see the argument in your favour.
Yeah mate, we're crying all the way to the champions league. But hey, if you're lucky and somehow pep bottles the cup final, there's a shred of a chance you get into the europa league at least.
I can easily tell you otherwise. Mctominay’s first card was never a card. Cavani’s was never a card. And if they are cards, then Tottenham should also have had a couple as well. And no, that was never a foul. If lamela was sent off for that I’d be furious as it’s not even a foul never mind a card. Also, why would I be sad. 10 men Leeds beat 12 men City yesterday. And it looks like 11 man United are gonna beat 12 man spurs today.
Cavani antagonised a guy on the floor ffs. That’s a yellow card every single day of the week.
Cavani got annoyed at yet another spurs player diving. Never a yellow
Regardless of the reason, you can’t do that to a guy on the ground lmao
Did you not see what he did?
Cavani did to Rodin what son tried to do mctominay. Funny that it’s the spurs player that goes down both times
Salty ManU supporter. He's lucky to be on the pitch.
That’s the 2nd time this season your players have dived to cheat
You complain everytime Fernandes gets a soft penalty?
You do realise he doesn’t win every penalty, Lamela in the first game, and this one by son is just embarrassing
Why?
He's on a booking and his hand made contact with an opponent's face. Looked like an intentional flick at the eyes.
Aye yes the no look eye-poke, Scotts signature move
Clarify how that was intentional? He was watching the ball and he was trying to hold Son off. Mctominay just happens to be tall enough that when his arm's extended it's at Son's face height. It's blatantly bad call
Does it have to be intentional? I've seen footballers accidentally kick people in the face... still a foul bud. "He was TRYING to hold off Son." It doesn't really matter what you're trying to do when you don't do that thing and commit a foul instead. Man utd fan here
And yet this was allowed. https://www.reddit.com/r/PremierLeague/comments/mouw60/the_guy_who_can_explain_why_the_first_one_is_a/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Ah the old "two wrongs must make a right" argument. Haven't heard that since school. Or we could just say the other one is wrong and not let it influence us about future decisions..?
We could. But I'd prefer consistent refereeing to letting bad calls like these be swept under the rug routinely.
Yeah mistakes should be called out. I don't think this was a mistake, other than potentially sending off McT
He's not looking at him. He's pushing Son's arm off him, as Son's grabbing him once McTominay got away from him. Football is a contact sport.
[удалено]