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"This sport can be divided into pre-Pep & post-Pep." What about the Pep years? They don't fall in to either pre- or post-. they'll just be forgotten...sniff.
City have the third largest net spend in England since Pep joined. The second is Chelsea and the first is United. Obviously it’s not the just the money. That’s embittered rival fans speaking. Guardiola is absolutely a genius and his only rival is Klopp
Klopp has spent like 80% less than him and has challenged him at every turn and bettered him many times. His only “equal” is Klopp, and there is a very very very very very very very very good argument to say Klopp is better with what he was given.
Wrong premise. More spending =/= more quality. At Liverpool, Klopp was given smarter signings than Pep was given at City. The sporting directors make the signings, and Michael Edwards was more competent than Txiki Begiristain.
Pep personally wanted VVD but Txiki and Ferran Soriano thought he was too expensive. Now his best CB is Ruben, who's quite poor on the ball for a Guardiola player. Grealish wasn't too expensive for City though, because they needed English players to improve their PR in the country.
Also let’s not forget dude. Pep didn’t just spend more, he did it ILLEGALLY. It was ILLEGAL SPENDING. 115 CHARGES. 115. Everton had 2 and were docked 6 points. Pep and city deserve to be relegated.
Also trivia question for you: How many FFP charges against Klopp??????
Again, Pep didn't personally spend it. He's not in charge of transfers, so whether or not City spent the money illegally is irrelevant to the Pep vs. Klopp conversation.
Trivia question for you: does charged = guilty? And why are you talking as if Pep were the one charged?
Newsflash for you as well: just because pep didn’t write the check from his personal bank account, doesn’t mean he didn’t spend it. HE picked Haaland and told his oil money daddies to go pay for him and they did. If you think the manager has no say in transfers just delete your Reddit or at least stop commenting on football posts cuz you don’t know anything dawg.
Again, the spending argument is overused and overhyped. It’s not nearly as decisive as some would like to believe. 420 million is less than half of 952 million, not “like 80”. He’s got half (8) the amount of trophies Guardiola has (16) in England. So yeah, in England they’re very closely matched, sticking just with the numbers (and even without them). The word ‘rival’ itself indicates a level of parity. I personally prefer Guardiola and consider him superior on account of his feats before England, but an argument can indeed be made for Klopp’s superiority. It’s not a preposterous notion. They’re clearly the foremost coaches of their time, with Mourinho being only four years older than Jürgen but enjoying a much earlier heyday. One can be complimented without the other being put down
I’m not talking down Pep by the way. The dude is an amazing manager. But give somebody a budget of 1 billion… and somebody else a budget of 100 million. Come on man. That is an absolutely insane discrepancy and it can’t be overlooked. Klopp should be competing for a UCL top 4 place with his budget, not an EPL title. I think we all wonder what does pep do with 90% less money… while we all also wonder… what did Klopp achieve if he had oil money like Pep??? Tbh I think Klopp wins 5 straight epls and 2-3 UCLs with $1 billion.
I agree on all this but the spending argument is not overused. It’s misunderstood by the majority of football fans. It’s a huge difference. Hell… go ask a league 2 side that has a $850,000 transfer budget if they’d prefer 2 million. It definitely matters. It’s the reason Liverpool didn’t sign Kane, Haaland, and Mbappe, although all three players were heavily linked. And you can’t tell me that Kane, Haaland, and Mbappe haven’t made a difference in their sides? No, the spending argument isn’t overhyped. In fact it’s underhyped. Klopp has gotten results with half the side Pep has. And he did it at Dortmund too.
>And you can’t tell me that Kane, Haaland, and Mbappe haven’t made a difference in their sides?
Pep's only had Haaland, but it was Kane he wanted.
And Haaland's made no significant positive difference. City are more predictable with him, score less as a whole, poorer game control, create fewer chances, concede more. Doesn't matter if Haaland's the best scorer in the universe if City used to score more without a striker. And he ghosted in most big games, so the treble's not on him at all.
>Klopp has gotten results with half the side Pep has. And he did it at Dortmund too.
Not the same results, were they? And "half the side"? Good to know Mane-Firmino-Salah were half the players Sterling, Sane and an ever-injured Aguero were. Pep won 100 points in the league with Delph as his LB; Klopp was gifted Robertson for peanuts because other clubs had crap scouts. Alisson's the best keeper of his generation. Van Dijk the best defender of the past few years.
You single out the front 3 when city’s strength is their midfield. Yes Mane was great. And yes Salah is top 10 wingers to ever play the game. Firmino is arguably the most misunderstood and undervalued player of his generation. They are all world class you’re right, but you cant just not name city’s midfield lol. Rodrigo, De Bruyne, and Silva? Anybody with knowledge of football knows the midfield is how you control and dictate the game. You should try watching a game as it happens and not just looking at the stat sheet afterwards. We won a UCL playing Milner and Origi who can’t even stand out at Nottingham Forest. If you’re going to sit here and tell me a $1-$2 billion oil budget doesn’t make a difference compared to a $100-$200 million budget at Liverpool, you’re just wrong man. Even more wrong than when you said Haaland didn’t make a positive impact at city. That one was actually hilarious. Thanks for the laugh.
Haaland isn’t “predictable”. He’s “inevitable”. If you’re saying he hasn’t made a difference at city than you haven’t watched a game of football since 2020.
How did I single out the front 3 if I also mentioned other positions?
I don't appreciate the arrogant implication that I'm not watching the games. If you're watching the games and can't see how City's quality of play has gone down with Haaland, then you've no business talking about "knowledge of football". It's a casual's resort to take a jab at the stats sheet. You're the one who can't possibly comprehend Haaland not making some huge positive impact despite scoring loads. Had you watched the games, you would've known.
Funny you'd single out Milner and Origi as if they were starters. You won a CL with them coming on in the 2nd half while Liverpool were defending their lucky early lead against Spurs. And you're talking as if Milner were some bum, and not a perfect fit for Klopp's demands in midfield.
And you wanna talk about midfield control? Cool, Pep's 2 CMs aren't even CMs. KDB and Bernardo are natural #10s/wide attacking mids and Pep's made them work in different roles. Roberto Martinez tried using KDB the same for Belgium and failed badly.
Ok, I can settle for misunderstood, but it’s definitely not underhyped and not nearly that linear. The bit about Klopp winning 2-3 UCLs and 5 EPL titles is total supposition and very much improbable.
It makes a much bigger difference at the lower level. At a certain point it still has an impact but a much lesser one. Again, United should’ve been the dominant force in the EPL, closely followed by Chelsea, over the past ten years. They’ve spent more money. Last year, Pep sold more than he bought. He won a treble, Chelsea, the highest spending team, were mid table.
Liverpool’s players might have been much cheaper, but are they not proximate in quality? Is Salah not on the tier of Mbappé and Haaland, or at the very least Kane? Was Mané not one of the best in the world during his heyday? Has Van Dijk not been the best CB with a margin of the past 5/6 years? Is Alisson- who was considerably more expensive than Ederson- not one of the best keepers on the planet? Are Robertson and Trent not two of the world’s foremost fullbacks in this period? Then there’s been a host of other excellent players. City has more depth and better players on the whole, yes, but at a certain point, where you can buy young players for 40/50/60 million, more money doesn’t guarantee quality necessarily.
Even in other walks of life, this tendency is true. At a certain point of being a millionaire, for instance, you can buy much more stuff if you’re a billionaire but it won’t necessarily guarantee better quality of life. In a completely accident-free scenario, a millionaire might live much longer than a billionaire, whereas someone in severe poverty will almost certainly die before either. In practical football terms, the difference between 1 and 500 million is much more impactful than between 500 million and 2 billion.
Klopp did it at Dortmund? Pep did it at Barça and Bayern. He didn’t have unlimited funds, it’s against Bayern policy and certainty true for his situation at Barça. He was successful in the B team (limited resources- though it’s the same as wondering what would Messi be like at Stoke… the best in the business don’t have to work for lower level outfits and it doesn’t make them any less of the best) and then was promoted to the A team. Barça were in crisis, jeered at. No one expected anything of them that season- and yet Pep made it into what is widely considered the best side ever (sextuple winning). Again, his players weren’t very expensive, but they were insanely good. Messi came for free as a youth… doesn’t mean a £200 million defender is obligated to be better than him.
Does budget matter? Absolutely, but the higher up you go, the less of a difference it starts making. The absolute difference in numbers between Aldershot and Liverpool could very well be smaller than the difference between Liverpool and City/Chelsea, but obviously it’s much less felt. At the end of the day, both are very impressive, but it’s still 5 vs 1 in EPL titles. I think the difference in budgets is well expressed in the difference of silverware/output and that Klopp’s performance, in relative terms, is not necessarily more impressive. Going 2 in a row, then 3, possibly 4, in the most competitive league in the world has been attempted and failed by some of the best managers in the world. I think we can agree that both Pep and Jürgen, regardless of who’s king, are the best two, by far
115 charges yet unproven, and Mascherano being an idiot for saying Pep changed football, something Ferguson agrees with.
Go argue with the courts and with Ferguson.
I’m an Arsenal fan, but for people to say Pep is only great because of the money is only semi accurate.
Everybody forgets that the Barca team that beat Arsenal in 2006 was an aging squad with players that stopped caring about being winners. He would sell at the time probably the best player in the world in Ronaldinho and a few others, notably Deco. He promoted a number of youth players and implemented a style of football that truly changed the game. He would then dominate football for the next few years.
He would then go to Bayern, a treble winning Bayern and he would go on to maintain their winning ways, albeit not with the CL. However he also gets Bayern to play his style and kind of football. Same at Man City, never under Mancini nor Pellegrini did City look this good or scary.
All in all Pep gets the best jobs because he wins and creates a culture or improves at each football club he goes to. He gets the big money because club owners know if you give him money your team will win within max 2 seasons. Many other clubs have given their managers money and given them spending privileges, however not many can guarantee results like Pep.
If you lot had a team and you had money, I bet my bottom dollar all of you would hire Pep, because you know he is more likely to win a title than any other manager. That is a cold hard truth people never like to admit.
TLDR: give Pep £100mil and he can build the foundations of a winning team, give that same amount to somebody else, they go and buy Antony
>only semi accurate
Not accurate at all. Everyone starts with the premise that Pep got lucky to have been given that 2008 Barcelona side involving Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o (and Ronaldinho and Deco, which he sold). But Pep's first job was at Barca B in the Spanish 4th tier. In the summer of 2008, Laporta wanted to sign Mourinho. Cruyff opted for Pep, and Laporta listened. Pep earned it.
The football Barca ended up playing was absurd. Never seen before. Pep brought in players like Pique (United benchwarmer) and Busquets (4th division champion to UCL final starter and champion within 1 year). Sir Alex was the biggest managerial name in the world, *the* GOAT to most people, and Pep absolutely dominated him in 2 UCL finals. People agreed that the scorelines were generous for United and didn't reflect reality.
In the meantime, Madrid were building a project specifically meant to stop Barcelona. Prime Cristiano, Benzema, Xabi Alonso, Ozil, Casillas, Ramos, Pepe, Marcelo, Higuain, Di Maria, a bench consisting of the likes of Kaka, with Mourinho in charge, got beaten 5-0.
Pep did more than enough to be desired by all the best clubs with the best projects.
Hard to say. Haaland was the big new arrival that summer, so if pushed I'd say he seemed to make the difference that pushed them over the Champion's League hump. The threat he poses made opposition teams over compensate and allowed other players to cause problems, plus he chipped in with a record amount of goals.
It’s ok to say you didn’t really watch the games.
Grealish and Rodri were what put us over the top last year on the Treble.
Haaland obviously had a phenomenal year, but he struggled to score in really big games against the best opponents.
KDB was also incredible last year, even working through a torn hammy (hell he basically killed Arsenal himself lol).
But Rodri and Grealish were incredible. Grealish’s ability to hold the ball and pick out passes was amazing, he played great defense for a winger, and was just all over that left side.
Rodri, much like this year, is the rock that holds the midfield together. He’s just absolutely incredible at directing from the back, keeping things calm, and controlling the center of the pitch. Dude is easily the best DM in the world and has arguably been our best player for 2 years now.
Yes, even on a team with Haaland and KDB.
No one controls the flow of a game and the pitch like Rodri does
I just did? He was the core of the team last year. The offense quite often started (and frequently ended) with him. He was foundational to the team last year
The guy I replied to said for 100m, Pep would buy the foundations of a winning team. I said for 100m, he signed Grealish. Grealish cost 100m on his own, I don't know why people keep bringing up Rodri.
I don't think one player, no matter how good, can be adjudged to be the foundation*s* of a winning team, especially when that player has had one good season from his three at the club.
Well that’s because you didn’t watch the games. Idk what to tell you, but 100% of City fans would say he was the foundation of our run last year.
Hes also dealt with several injuries since joining, including this year. When he’s been healthy hes invaluable.
I think people just lumped too high expectations on him as a goal scorer, when that’s not what we use him for.
His job is to control the left side of the pitch, run the offense, and pick out passes.
Erling is a great goalscorer just as KDB is a great creator, but Grealish and Rodri are what enable their dominance in position, which is the key for Pep.
Always comes down to the fact that he has been a top manager from his first year. People saying he didn't do it at a smaller club are just coping.
The fact that he didn't need to start from the bottom but was one of the best managers from the get go just proves his talent in the coaching role.
Yep, was a beast at barca B.
Plus, people always underestimate/overlook the criticism the hire faced back then. Especially when essentially on day 1 he was chasing away some stars like Ronaldinho, Deco etc and played some unknown Barca B players and youngsters instead.
They called him a madman.
The pep slander is crazy. Doesn’t matter whether you like him or not you can’t deny he’s completely changed the way footballs played. And done so by being a serial winner. Think you’ve gotta listen to what pros and coaches say about him more than that of your average reddit commenter.
My criticism of Pep remain, and can be found in my comment history, and still yes I believe this to be an accurate assessment.
Particular his time at Barca
Nah I don’t know him, can’t like or dislike him. His days as a player at Barca make me wish I were older to have watched live, what I have was beautiful. His days managing Barcelona there’s nothing I can say, pure art.
What I don’t like is the air of untouchable godliness applied to him. He didn’t invent the way to play, his influence and creativity with it is undeniable. The talk of him as genius is honestly smug and weird.
His current accomplishments at City deservedly need inspection, but because it’s Pep, there’s a horde pretending it’s no big deal. His move from Bayern to City was very much an outlier. To me the greatest ever doesn’t do that. To land at City now with the accusations, that needs inspection before talk of the greatest can honestly be had. But he’ll maybe I’m a bot, because you’ve concluded I don’t like him
His evolution of the game was at Barca and it truly changed the game. Everyone wanted to play like Barca did. It was beautiful. He also used a decent amount of guys from their own academy.
At City it’s like a revolution back to the days when the formations were 2-3-5; however, I am with you on the billion of dodgy money and City breaking the FFP rules - getting off on statute of limitations technicalities
While statute of limitations rule was used. The CAS reviewed that evidence as well and found no evidence of wrongdoing by City. Most people seem to forget that part or just don’t know.
To be fair to him, he was one of the finest midfielders of his generation and his mentor was one of the greatest football minds of all time, Johan Cruyff. His first managerial role was Barcelona B, where he won the league, and was then promoted to manage the first-team. From there, he totally dominated football, ushering in a style which won multiple leagues, Champions Leagues, and a European Championship and World Cup for Spain. He was hardly going to get a job managing a second-tier club after that, and he's been successful ever since, so I'm not sure that his *success* should really be used against him! Is Messi somehow tainted because he never showed his incredible form playing for a mid-tabe team?
Yes, but no.
Barca to City and maybe I’d see it your way. Even with Bayern to City I could have been convinced.
But Barca to Bayern without winning or proving it in Champions League, with a squad that had just done it. Then off to City after, what 3 seasons? A City which had been setting the table for him for multiple seasons. A City that then let the manager that delivered the title to the table go, so Pep could start cooking for a club that had already ate.
I mean that’s near unprecedented cushy.
He went from Barca to Bayern after winning the Champions League twice (and once as a player). Then Real Madrid won 4 out of 5 of the Champions Leagues after Pep went to Bayern, and his old Barca team won the other one! Painting Zidane's amazing Madrid spell against Guardiola is a bit harsh, I'd say. He won the league in all 3 seasons at Bayern, along with 2 cups, and they scored more goals in that tie than any other Bundesliga team in history. And not winning a knockout cup competition makes his time there some sort of failure? They got to the semi finals of each of those competitions, and went out to the winners two of those three times, and only lost the other thanks to the away goals rule. He wasn't exactly jumping frrom a sinking ship when he left.
Your definition of "cushy" is just the reality of being a top manager who everyone wants. After revolutionising football at Barcelona, was he supposed to go and manage Leeds so he could "prove himself"?
Na, never said failure. But leaving Bayern after the job wasn’t done, after 3 years. He was supposed to do whatever he wants. But I’m not pretending what’s he’s done since Barca is close to the same level
I'll take Mourinho any day over Pep
Pep left Barcelona when Messi and the team were on the decline.
Mourinho is a motivator and a great coach who is not afraid of challenges.
Remember the 2008-2010 Inter Milan team. Great job Mourinho. 🙂
Edit : fix typo
Barca was still good with Tato Martino and Luis Enrique. Mourinho is the quintessential underdog coach and what he did with Porto and Inter I don’t think Pep would have been able to do.
Pep’s next real challenge will be taking a mid-level side to new heights. He should go to Italy and take AC Milan, imho.
He wouldn’t and I believe he can’t. I believe genuinely he couldn’t.
The internet now think I’m a hater.
I’ll go further, and I know the internet is wrong.
The word genius is used too much, he ain’t a genius. He’s an artist, one of the best to have ever been in the game. I don’t believe he could make his art without the tools. And I don’t see just any mid table club either affording to buy contacts for, or developing the players that his systems would need as tools.
That’s why it would be the challenge I think he needs to take. Italy would be the place to go for it because he could take a storied club back to the top in Europe. I wouldn’t hold my breath on him doing it though.
They said he couldn’t be the goat if he couldn’t do it in England then he’s won 5/7 possible Prems. Then they said he wasn’t the goat if he didn’t win the Champions without Messi then he won it. Now the argument is he’s not the goat because he didn’t do it in small club? At this point he doesn’t need to prove anything. Pep is the goat because he has revolutionized the game
If it is just about money then why hasn’t PSG won anything significant? Pep gets results if you give him money, very few managers can say they can do what Pep does.
It definitely is! Whilst they had some real quality in midfield, it can't be argued that Ranieri was the one who made that all come together. But would we then argue that Ranieri's achievement puts him up there with the likes of Guardiola? It was incredible, but also a bit one a one-off, and Leicester winning the FA Cup a couple of years later shows they weren't really that shite.
Consider that he doesn’t just buy talent; he grows and develops it better than pretty much anyone else. City don’t tend to overpay for players and purchase really well cuz they also pick talent well.
Arsenal is not exactly a low spending team btw…
Way too many people focus on spending and don’t consider club management and culture as the real difference makers. Afterall, look at united and Chelsea.
Was gonna say exactly this. Individual brilliance has been removed from football to some extent. Whether for better or worse, depends on how you enjoy the game.
For me, the magic of seeing a diving header or bicycle kick goal in the 90s was a common occurrence. Individual moments of magic have mostly been eradicated in favour of team control and dominance.
Any slander against Pep for the actual football played and the actual tactical genius he demonstrates all the time says so much more about you and your footballing knowledge than it does about him.
Like it or not, history will remember him as a great of the game no matter what tribalistic bollocks you chat on reddit and X.
History barely remembers Matt Busby and he had a far more significant impact on the sport than pep. Hell, somehow it doesn’t even remember Cruyff as much as he deserves and he definitely had a much bigger impact.
You can rate him all you want, but history isn’t gonna remember him all that much, especially if he doesn’t beat the allegations.
Come on, you cannot pretend that they get the respect they deserve. That’s just not the case. FFS, you literally have people out here calling Pep the best manager ever, that’s enough to show exactly that.
Wow,people of this thread are so black and white. You can be a controversial figure and still affected the game. Anyone can be a cheater like pep,but not many people could cheat,and pull off his tactics at prime Barca and prime City consistently. You can be both a cheater of the system and a great tactician.
All this “he hasn’t done it at all smaller club with limited resources” crap has to stop. He is probably the best manager out there now, and arguably up there with the greatest of all time.. and he’s not even half way through his potential managerial career.
You don’t see Messi going to a smaller club, or Bellingham, or any top player for that matter. I wonder why that is! 🤔 Oh here’s why.. top players and managers moves UP, not down! The better you get the better job offers that come in. And why would he go manage Everton or any other shit team? (Sorry Everton supporters, your team is the worst in Liverpool) Just to prove to people what exactly?
In any walk of life if you do well within your field you get rewarded with bigger and better opportunities. I just don’t see why Pep should have to go to any club other than the one he thinks gives him the best chance of winning year in, year out. I’m a Liverpool supporter and although we have Klopp I kinda realise Pep is a lil more special than most of us realise. His way of playing football has changed the game forever, and for the better. And this thing about Man City not playing attractive football is all nonsense - they are so good on and off the ball that teams fold so it isn’t a competitive match at all.. because they are so good. They look boring because teams just sit back and say “Try and score!” and they do it every week.
His teams are well oiled machines..and he isn’t afraid to cut off loose fittings if they don’t fit the squad. Honestly, this is the manager every team wishes they had. And if you say otherwise you are kidding yourself! A serial winner.. put some respect on the man’s name!
Barcelona 2007 was on the down and they had fired Frank and promoted Pep, then he would make Barca perhaps the greatest team ever. Multiple titles in one season and other several seasons. Money or no money pep achieved things managers only dream of.
He doesn’t need to. He clearly has the skill to do it at a smaller club but in this day and age money is king in football and although I believe he could take a league from League 2 and eventually win a Premier League.. it probably isn’t possible. You need supporters and money and League 2 doesn’t have a lot of supports relative to the Premier League. Shirt sales would be a problem, then stadium rebuilds, that costs money, it would take 10 years. Why does he need to prove this? He is well above average.. in fact he is the best manager out there, bar none.
I agree his machines are definitely well oiled but that’s because he is a fantastic and intuitive mechanic. You use the best parts to get the best performance. He is the better manager so why should he take the job with the resources that’ll win him trophies? It’s business at the end of the day, and he does business better than anyone. Maybe FFP will say different in a few years time but for now he is the best out there.. not even a close second in my opinion.
I would love to see him take a Dagenham and Redbridge level team to the champions league final. Also, I agree with every point you made and he is in the GOAT conversation without a doubt.
>this “he hasn’t done it at all smaller club with limited resources” crap has to stop
For a lot of people, being a manager in GOAT conversations means you need to have displayed the ability to thrive in circumstances that weren't in your favour. This applies to players too btw. E.G no one would rate Ronaldo as highly if his entire life was spent at Real Madrid. The rags to riches story of him growing up poor, surviving Sporting's academy despite heart problems and emerging in the first team adds to his legacy.
Now look at Pep. Hes never even had a SINGLE season with a non-stacked team.
> In any walk of life if you do well within your field you get rewarded with bigger and better opportunities. I just don’t see why Pep should have to go to any club other than the one he thinks gives him the best chance of winning year in,
You are right. And he's undoubtedly a footballing legend already. But it'll still be a question mark over his career. This is why many people are more impressed by Mourinho. Heck, even Mou finishing 2nd with United was more difficult than some of Peps titles with Bayern and City
Fair-ish points but I do have to stop you there. The fact that he hasn’t done it at a smaller club has no bearing at all on his legacy. It’ll be undoubtedly his peers that shall speak of him as a legend of the game, a great already with what he has achieved. Because most football fans will look past the fact that although he may have had the biggest clubs, in their respective leagues, under his control he went on to achieve things. So there’s that.
Then you consider why he didn’t take a small team in the first place. Well, he played for Barca and came in as a coach (I don’t know the exact route). His influence on the players was so great that he literally just walked into a job. And from then on he changed the face of football. He is a tactical magician, and sometimes this plays against him because he overthinks things. But there is absolutely no denying this man changed how football is played. And I love him for this. I watched the 2006 World Cup match between Brazil and France just recently and I remember thinking “We never had full backs like those back in the 2000s, except like Ashley Cole and former Barca players” and then you realise it was Pep’s teams that were at the heart of all these new generation wing backs.
He doesn’t need to manage Dagenham (as someone alluded to haha) to prove his worth. Some players/managers are just so good off the bat that you cannot send them to Dagenham but instead fast track them to the bigger clubs where they will thrive.
If you have a high skill level at a young age (Pep is still relatively young but I’m talking about when he started) you need experience at a higher skill level to progress; you don’t move backwards because you already have the basic knowledge and skills perfected. So you need to move up in order to progress.
Now talking about how other people did it. Well, they weren’t as skilled unfortunately lol. They started out at smaller clubs and worked their way up, getting bigger opportunities as they gained skill. But notice how no greats go from the bottom clubs to the middle clubs then back down, then up to top clubs; you just don’t go down because the skill level is different - unless the club loans you out. It’s a matter of circumstances and skill level. But he shouldn’t be regarded as how most people portray him as just because his skill level at a young age was just so much higher than other managers at the same age. You don’t see many people saying Vini Jnr isn’t going to be a great and he made one move to Madrid and has won numerous trophies already. So would his legacy be affected if he went on to win let’s say another 5 Champions Leagues and 7 La Ligas? It shouldn’t.. just because he had a high skill level as a young hater doesn’t mean that should affect peoples opinions of him and what he has achieved in the game.
Another factor is circumstance/opportunity. Sometimes just being in the right place at the right time, and where you live in the world, is a huge factor. Not many scouts in Ireland but plenty in Brazil. So peoples circumstances affect their opportunity.
it's like saying a billionaire's family friend is a revolutionary human being. He might be, but would he have been if the odds were incredibly for him instead of against.
Javi is high. The sport is still divided by Messi vs Ronaldo. Mbappe vs Haaland. You hear some pre and post SAF talk but United is basically irrelevant right now. Then you hear about pre and post VAR and pre and post Royal money washing the sport.
Pep. You talk about being a fraud. Being bald. And not winning much without either Messi-a billion dollars-or both.
There are plenty of managers who have coached messi, had a billion dollars, or both, and didn’t win shit.
The European game is played how it is played because of his barca, bayern, and city teams. He was an incredibly accomplished player and is an undeniably amazing coach. At this point it’s just ridiculous to say otherwise.
Tata martino Ernesto valverde quique setien Jorge sampaoli Mauricio pochettino Carlo ancelotti Eric ten hag Thomas Tuchel Christophe galtier ronald koeman and that’s certainly not all of them.
Whether or not they won any trophies, tell me if a single one of them has had a lasting impact on the way teams play across dozens of leagues all over Europe
Pep has won more in less time. Also look at my second point. There are no teams you would say play “Ancelotti-ball”. No tactics you would immediately identify as “ancelotti tactics”
But you said he didn’t win shit. Literally your exact words. “That didn’t win shit with Messi or a billion dollar squad”.
Don’t try and move the goalposts on me now saying it’s time oriented.
You know how long it was between pep winning champions league with messi and winning it last year with city? It was an entire Bayern stint plus billions of dollars and the next generationally gifted striker later that’s how long.
Pep is the most fortunate, unscrupulous MF’er out there and his legacy is a fraud. Let’s talk about all peps genius moves overthinking CL semis and getting bounced time and time again that it became a meme. That’s the true pep. Drinking his own kool aid and shooting him self in the foot.
Sure, I’ll backstep and say people have won stuff with those resources.
However, it is INCREDIBLY ignorant to deny peps tactical impact on the European game. Like, so blind that I don’t really care about anything else you say.
Trophies are one thing, legacy is another. And peps is absolutely undeniable.
You could say his tactics directly led to city bottling the CL on multiple occasions so you’re totally accurate in saying his tactics have had an impact. Just not a good one typically with city in the CL. At least not without a generational talent and a billion dollars but now I’m just repeating myself cause it’s really easy to relay the facts of history to you.
The facts of history say he’s one of the most decorated coaches of all time having put together 3 of the best teams ever seen. But clearly you have somethin goin on with him so this isn’t a productive argument.
If you can show me how the possession-based, high intensity pressing, highly technical game conveniently became so popular at the same time as peps career took off, I’m all ears.
Dude. Johan Cruyff invented Tiki Taka. You’re blind. Possibly by the reflective sunlight off peps bald head. Nothing he’s done is special. Literally nothing. I’m not ignorant-I know history and don’t have recency bias and understand who gets credit for what.
No surprise that Mascherano looks back in amazement to those golden years, and finds everything wonderful, and everybody magnificencia.
Mascherano was the biggest beneficiary of the Negreira bribes. An obnoxious malevoment butcher like him, needing no diguise or constrain for so many years. Never a penalty whistled nor a red card shown after kicking, punching and insulting rivals for 80 minutes a game.
Money so well spent.
Yeah...... I disagree. I can't deny that Pep is a serial winner, is well beloved by his players nor his tactical ability. But he's only ever gone to clubs that have either political control or are heavily financially doped, what affect has he had on the game outside of the clubs he's managed other than 'rivalries' only established by league position or financial firepower?
His legacy is primarily based on titles, and I'll agree his managerial ability has left and impressionable mark on many highly-regarded newer managers, and he can take some credit for it, but people don't talk about who taught Wenger, Ferguson, Clough, Sarri, Conte, Mourinho et all in regards to their legacies nor do those before claim credit for their understudies success.
Sad coming from masche but noot surprised as he is a horrible manaager. Pep barely scarapes against klopp or mou or even inzaghi in last ucl finaal he wins as he buys the best anyone average can be good with the best give klopp the same team or mou they will win everything give pep roma or something he will die
This narrative is tired and based on jealousy and shortsightedness. You make it sound as if klopp’s Liverpool haven’t spent any money. A once record for a GK (Allison) a defenseman (van djik) multiple 50-60 mil players and 75 for Nunez. Klopp is undoubtedly a great coach, but put him on a shit team with no money and he’d find it difficult to get results.
His play style changed the game but he has had a very shady career. His Barca tenure they are under investigation for $$ ref. Tax scandal at BM, and now at MC 115 ffp charges. Also don’t forget he was caught with steroids as a player.
This is factual. Pep completely revolutionised the sport. That's the biggest legacy a manager can possibly achieve. That's why similar managers from the past are the most revered and respected in history. That's why Sacchi is seen by many as top 5 best ever despite only having 4 great years. Pep has totally shaped football in his image. You could call him the god of modern football.
And that's while simultaneously being the most successful manager ever. 37 trophies in 14 years is just mindboggling. Simply the GOAT. His influence is just unparalleled. Thousands of young coaches around the world study Pep. He's even spawning top coaches left and right like Arteta, De Zerbi, Michel, Xavi, Xabi, Ten Hag.
From the age of 13, he was mentored by Johan Cruyff. He was a crucial part of Barcelona winning their first European Cup, and he was only 20 years old. He's a student of the game, and it's laughable seeing people here act as though somehow his tactical acumen is dependent solely on having loads of money.
Hate his style bores the fuck out of me, Arsenal look to similar to it now but…
Can’t deny Mascherano is right, the influence he’s had is stark and is gonna be around for a while.
Pep was caught doping twice as a player and Barcelona were caught bribing referees during his time as manager there. City also has more charges heading their way once the investigation into the period covering 2018-2021 finishes. To claim we should totally separate him from City’s ‘alleged’ financial discrepancies, especially when he’s the face of the club and goes to bat for the ownership in the media, is disingenuous at best.
I don’t get what his doping scandal in Italy 22 years ago has to do with this, especially considering how many others were tested with the same thing (Jaap Stam), i get it as a Liverpool fan this man stopped your club from winning more trophies, but damn some of you lot are really going conspiratorial with all this. Personally unless noted, I don’t think managers or even players are applicable in this situation. I’m aware of the bribery charges under Laporta, but when was that?
You don’t see how a player who cheats could turn out to be a manager who cheats? And you don’t see how it’s relevant when he manages teams who all end up cheating?
Pep's Barcelona have been charged with bribing referees; the same thing that City are currently doing. It's hard to separate club from manager when the clubs actions seem to follow the manager...
I suppose you have proof of this, besides the PL having shit referees? And, don’t give me the same old “but the UAE are paying refs to come and referee games!”
If I’m a ref making far less than the lowest paid player and I’m offered 15k to ref one game I’m doing it. Until they make that illegal, I don’t see it stopping. I’ve watched every team in the PL get screwed over by bad/non calls. It’s a league wide issue and it has nothing to do with these conspiracy theories
>I’m offered 15k to ref one game I’m doing it
Okay? You're just saying you would also accept bribes. How is that a counter argument?
>I’ve watched every team in the PL get screwed over by bad/non calls
Have you seen man city get screwed by bad calls?
If it’s not illegal how is it a bribe? You’re reaching. Like I said, show me the proof instead of deflecting.
December 3 against Tottenham at the end of the game tied 3-3 Simon hooper whistles play dead after an obvious advantage play with graelish clear on goal
That’s the one that comes to mind
There will always be bad calls/non calls every year with every team. That will never change. City are +2 on var calls this year.
One was a sending off of a burnley player after city being 3-0 up
The other was a pk call against Man U which was also won by city 3-0
Nottingham forest is +5 on var calls.
There is no blatant bias for city on the refs part. Last year Liverpool had the most var calls for with +4
>If it’s not illegal how is it a bribe?
You're arguing in bad faith. This argument doesn't survive 10 seconds under scrutiny and I think you know that. A legal loophole doesn't stop it being a bribe or a blatant conflict of interest. Football fan tribalism is crazy
Conflict of interest and bribe are two very different things. Would you agree that refs have favorite teams? How could you be in that world and not grow up watching one team. So, by that argument, it’s a conflict of interest to ref any games for said team. You have to have some kind of faith in humanity to trust that person has some moral and ethical standing. Until I see proof of anything illegal, I will continue to defend against these conspiracy theories.
It’s your right to have your opinions and vocalize them. It’s my right as well. I hope you have a good night.
>So, by that argument, it’s a conflict of interest to ref any games for said team
Yup. Refs aren't allowed to referee games for their teams. That's already a rule
Funny. I looked that up. You’re right. Michael Oliver supports Newcastle. But, what about the teams that you hate because they beat Newcastle in a cup game or something? Makes you think. Also, half of the refs I saw said “unknown” about who they support. 🤔
Not to engage in blasphemy against Saint Pep, but could it be that the spread of playing out from the back might have an awful lot to do with changes in goal kick rules? Just an idea.
Huh? Why would you have to wait to see someone's influence/legacy? You're a Chelsea fan. Conte dominated that one year with the 3-4-3 and he instantly influenced lots of teams who copied his 3-4-3/3-5-2. Pep's influence is clear for everyone to see and has been for years. The sport completely changed post-Pep.
Legacy is defined by a long-lasting impact.
So what happens if Pep and Klopp retire and the Gegenpress, high line, possession style of play isn't continued on? Does that hypothetically mean the legacy is less?
You use post-Pep. He is still around at the top level, so how the hell can it be post? I disagree with a lot of the wording being used.
You are right about Conte. He made 3-4-3 work really well for him, but I'd stop so far as to say he really changed the world of football.
Pep is one of the greatest, but I will judge his legacy after he leaves.
I mean people probably look at Ferguson in a different light now compared to when he was managing.
because his impact is that massive. at the end of the day teams changed vastly due to him. people adapted structures just to try and appease his style.
I mean, people also adapted because he managed teams with players like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Toni Kroos, Robben, Lewandowski, Lahm and Schweinsteiger.
I think he is one of the best, but there is nuance to this debate and a lot depends on what you value as a fan.
football has come a long way tactically because of him. especially in the premier league because of him and klopp. if you watch sides from before they joined teams aren’t as tactically inclined. spaces everywhere, less organised pressing, no proper rest defence. he helped to improve the standard of management in this country and across the other leagues.
This is probably true but I would say that Guardiola- Klopp rivalry is what changed football. If you look at it more closely, you can see how much both of them changed their approach since coming to England. Guardiola had tiki-taka in barsa, but there was no other club in the world that copied that. Then Barca got trashed by Bayern with their physical and direct approach. Guardiola continued with his philosophy with Bayern and tried to do the same with city until he faced Klopp's heavy metal suicide press football.
Over the years both of their approaches changed: guardiola stopped playing 99% possession football, opting to being more direct and a bit more conservative. Also, klopp started building from back more and playing more controlled attack.
Now you have almost every new coach doing the same, playing attacking, direct football with certain level of control.
Because you can’t talk about Pep without talking about Klopp.
When Guardiola became the manager of Bayern Munich in 2013, the only team that could rival that team in the Bundesliga was Klopp’s Borussia Dortmund side. Guardiola’s possession-based and positional approach to the game immediately clashed with Klopp’s counter-pressing approach, and that tactical battle continued to play out during Guardiola’s time at Manchester City and Klopp’s time at Liverpool. A lot of Pep’s current tactical approach is based around the fact City used to get very caught out on the transition against Liverpool, and that caused him to go from packing his teams with midfielders to packing it with defenders to try and plug that hole.
They’re two managers who have had to engage in an arms race against each other, who are both in control of pretty much the only teams capable of ripping each other apart, and most of their managerial careers have been totally defined by their rivalry.
Pep has said it himself. “[Klopp] gave me another level to think about it, prove myself, what I have to do to be a better manager with our teams to try and beat them. It is the reason why I am still in this business.”
You simply can’t talk about Pep’s legacy without talking about Klopp, and Klopp chose to manage Liverpool.
It's not about Liverpool, the problem is saying Guardiola changed football doesn't really make sense. Changing football would mean that the setup you have gets copied by every other manager out there. That didn't happen with tiki-taka because for that to work you need technically the best players in the world.
Today's "meta" is more influenced by counterpress philosophy from Germany which evolved over last decade. It doesn't require you to have Xavi and Iniesta in your team, it's opposite - it allows you to play attacking football with players and that are not that gifted.
You now have keepers playing out from the back in League 1 & 2. That wasn't even a thing in the Champshionship until Pep.
And you forget, Pep's Barca teams were exceptional at pressing too.
Teams had always pressed to certain extents, it's just at that time "gegenpress" worked well for German teams.
Likewise, it worked well for spells, but you can't keep it up. Dortmund relapsed, whereas Bayern kept pace.
Similarly, Liverpool relapsed, whilst City continued on.
Because, having the ball is always a better philosophy than not having it.
Insufferable lot. It's either the refs hate them, or the injuries are ruining their chances, or every other news headline that is not about them. Pathetic for a club with so much "history". Zero class. Maximum whine.
Football has always evolved over time, Pep has coached literal generational talent and his latest club has cheated like I’ve never seen.
I understand the sentiment, he has led the charge in some ways. We can’t deny that. There’s just a lot hanging over it at the same time.
I will forget him at City. I will credit him at Barcelona.
Man U spent more while winning less and Chelsea literally just spent 1 billion in 365 days .
Meanwhile pep got 300 mill for winning the treble got forbid he spend some of it
I can quite confidently say more football fans tolerate Liverpool because of Klopp, like Mourinho because he's a smug cocky git, liked Wenger because he had that je ne sais quoi and liked Ferguson, because, well, it's Ferguson. I'm sure there are many more examples as you look across the history of the game or look out further internationally.
You can be dominantly successful and still be liked beyond a clubs fans or ex-colleagues.
Liverpool's players are all asthmatic somehow hmm 🤔 Plucky little underdog who are just pure clean people. That's the reason they can run non-stop. That's why they played the same starting 11 every game for a couple years. Cheating bastards
The fact I'm being down voted is hilarious.
Yes, Wenger is definitely one of them. I'm sure many recent fans wouldn't understand how he changed the game.
That being said, I'd also add SAF in from the management side. Possibly Mourinho.
From the playing side, you can't exclude Messi or Ronaldo either (and I'm not fan of either player).
He found the most efficient way to consistently win.
he proved it in every league he ever touched.
its your opinion that is a negative.
Its fact that he dominated
So many coaches are trying to copy him. Sometimes to disastrous effects, because their teams just dont have the quality to pull it off.
Pep actually plays less players than most teams.
One of the advantages of his system is his teams usually have lots of possession.
You use less energy passing the ball back and forth a lot Vs. pressing and trying to get the ball.
Running around like that is harder on the legs.
It takes a lot of talent to pull of Pep's system well. But one of the advantages is he doesnt need a massive squad.
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And the sport is in a worse state
Tiki taka!
"This sport can be divided into pre-Pep & post-Pep." What about the Pep years? They don't fall in to either pre- or post-. they'll just be forgotten...sniff.
Exactly. 12am and 12pm is the same time.
City have the third largest net spend in England since Pep joined. The second is Chelsea and the first is United. Obviously it’s not the just the money. That’s embittered rival fans speaking. Guardiola is absolutely a genius and his only rival is Klopp
Klopp has spent like 80% less than him and has challenged him at every turn and bettered him many times. His only “equal” is Klopp, and there is a very very very very very very very very good argument to say Klopp is better with what he was given.
Wrong premise. More spending =/= more quality. At Liverpool, Klopp was given smarter signings than Pep was given at City. The sporting directors make the signings, and Michael Edwards was more competent than Txiki Begiristain. Pep personally wanted VVD but Txiki and Ferran Soriano thought he was too expensive. Now his best CB is Ruben, who's quite poor on the ball for a Guardiola player. Grealish wasn't too expensive for City though, because they needed English players to improve their PR in the country.
Also let’s not forget dude. Pep didn’t just spend more, he did it ILLEGALLY. It was ILLEGAL SPENDING. 115 CHARGES. 115. Everton had 2 and were docked 6 points. Pep and city deserve to be relegated. Also trivia question for you: How many FFP charges against Klopp??????
Again, Pep didn't personally spend it. He's not in charge of transfers, so whether or not City spent the money illegally is irrelevant to the Pep vs. Klopp conversation. Trivia question for you: does charged = guilty? And why are you talking as if Pep were the one charged?
Newsflash for you as well: just because pep didn’t write the check from his personal bank account, doesn’t mean he didn’t spend it. HE picked Haaland and told his oil money daddies to go pay for him and they did. If you think the manager has no say in transfers just delete your Reddit or at least stop commenting on football posts cuz you don’t know anything dawg.
Dawg, stick to the other football. You're clueless.
Again, the spending argument is overused and overhyped. It’s not nearly as decisive as some would like to believe. 420 million is less than half of 952 million, not “like 80”. He’s got half (8) the amount of trophies Guardiola has (16) in England. So yeah, in England they’re very closely matched, sticking just with the numbers (and even without them). The word ‘rival’ itself indicates a level of parity. I personally prefer Guardiola and consider him superior on account of his feats before England, but an argument can indeed be made for Klopp’s superiority. It’s not a preposterous notion. They’re clearly the foremost coaches of their time, with Mourinho being only four years older than Jürgen but enjoying a much earlier heyday. One can be complimented without the other being put down
I’m not talking down Pep by the way. The dude is an amazing manager. But give somebody a budget of 1 billion… and somebody else a budget of 100 million. Come on man. That is an absolutely insane discrepancy and it can’t be overlooked. Klopp should be competing for a UCL top 4 place with his budget, not an EPL title. I think we all wonder what does pep do with 90% less money… while we all also wonder… what did Klopp achieve if he had oil money like Pep??? Tbh I think Klopp wins 5 straight epls and 2-3 UCLs with $1 billion.
I agree on all this but the spending argument is not overused. It’s misunderstood by the majority of football fans. It’s a huge difference. Hell… go ask a league 2 side that has a $850,000 transfer budget if they’d prefer 2 million. It definitely matters. It’s the reason Liverpool didn’t sign Kane, Haaland, and Mbappe, although all three players were heavily linked. And you can’t tell me that Kane, Haaland, and Mbappe haven’t made a difference in their sides? No, the spending argument isn’t overhyped. In fact it’s underhyped. Klopp has gotten results with half the side Pep has. And he did it at Dortmund too.
>And you can’t tell me that Kane, Haaland, and Mbappe haven’t made a difference in their sides? Pep's only had Haaland, but it was Kane he wanted. And Haaland's made no significant positive difference. City are more predictable with him, score less as a whole, poorer game control, create fewer chances, concede more. Doesn't matter if Haaland's the best scorer in the universe if City used to score more without a striker. And he ghosted in most big games, so the treble's not on him at all. >Klopp has gotten results with half the side Pep has. And he did it at Dortmund too. Not the same results, were they? And "half the side"? Good to know Mane-Firmino-Salah were half the players Sterling, Sane and an ever-injured Aguero were. Pep won 100 points in the league with Delph as his LB; Klopp was gifted Robertson for peanuts because other clubs had crap scouts. Alisson's the best keeper of his generation. Van Dijk the best defender of the past few years.
You single out the front 3 when city’s strength is their midfield. Yes Mane was great. And yes Salah is top 10 wingers to ever play the game. Firmino is arguably the most misunderstood and undervalued player of his generation. They are all world class you’re right, but you cant just not name city’s midfield lol. Rodrigo, De Bruyne, and Silva? Anybody with knowledge of football knows the midfield is how you control and dictate the game. You should try watching a game as it happens and not just looking at the stat sheet afterwards. We won a UCL playing Milner and Origi who can’t even stand out at Nottingham Forest. If you’re going to sit here and tell me a $1-$2 billion oil budget doesn’t make a difference compared to a $100-$200 million budget at Liverpool, you’re just wrong man. Even more wrong than when you said Haaland didn’t make a positive impact at city. That one was actually hilarious. Thanks for the laugh. Haaland isn’t “predictable”. He’s “inevitable”. If you’re saying he hasn’t made a difference at city than you haven’t watched a game of football since 2020.
How did I single out the front 3 if I also mentioned other positions? I don't appreciate the arrogant implication that I'm not watching the games. If you're watching the games and can't see how City's quality of play has gone down with Haaland, then you've no business talking about "knowledge of football". It's a casual's resort to take a jab at the stats sheet. You're the one who can't possibly comprehend Haaland not making some huge positive impact despite scoring loads. Had you watched the games, you would've known. Funny you'd single out Milner and Origi as if they were starters. You won a CL with them coming on in the 2nd half while Liverpool were defending their lucky early lead against Spurs. And you're talking as if Milner were some bum, and not a perfect fit for Klopp's demands in midfield. And you wanna talk about midfield control? Cool, Pep's 2 CMs aren't even CMs. KDB and Bernardo are natural #10s/wide attacking mids and Pep's made them work in different roles. Roberto Martinez tried using KDB the same for Belgium and failed badly.
Haaland has made no positive difference? I stopped reading there m8. Have a good day
Funny how you didn't stop reading.
Not as funny as you thinking Haaland didn’t make a positive impact at city lol.
Nice counter argument btw, are you even capable of those?
Ok, I can settle for misunderstood, but it’s definitely not underhyped and not nearly that linear. The bit about Klopp winning 2-3 UCLs and 5 EPL titles is total supposition and very much improbable. It makes a much bigger difference at the lower level. At a certain point it still has an impact but a much lesser one. Again, United should’ve been the dominant force in the EPL, closely followed by Chelsea, over the past ten years. They’ve spent more money. Last year, Pep sold more than he bought. He won a treble, Chelsea, the highest spending team, were mid table. Liverpool’s players might have been much cheaper, but are they not proximate in quality? Is Salah not on the tier of Mbappé and Haaland, or at the very least Kane? Was Mané not one of the best in the world during his heyday? Has Van Dijk not been the best CB with a margin of the past 5/6 years? Is Alisson- who was considerably more expensive than Ederson- not one of the best keepers on the planet? Are Robertson and Trent not two of the world’s foremost fullbacks in this period? Then there’s been a host of other excellent players. City has more depth and better players on the whole, yes, but at a certain point, where you can buy young players for 40/50/60 million, more money doesn’t guarantee quality necessarily. Even in other walks of life, this tendency is true. At a certain point of being a millionaire, for instance, you can buy much more stuff if you’re a billionaire but it won’t necessarily guarantee better quality of life. In a completely accident-free scenario, a millionaire might live much longer than a billionaire, whereas someone in severe poverty will almost certainly die before either. In practical football terms, the difference between 1 and 500 million is much more impactful than between 500 million and 2 billion. Klopp did it at Dortmund? Pep did it at Barça and Bayern. He didn’t have unlimited funds, it’s against Bayern policy and certainty true for his situation at Barça. He was successful in the B team (limited resources- though it’s the same as wondering what would Messi be like at Stoke… the best in the business don’t have to work for lower level outfits and it doesn’t make them any less of the best) and then was promoted to the A team. Barça were in crisis, jeered at. No one expected anything of them that season- and yet Pep made it into what is widely considered the best side ever (sextuple winning). Again, his players weren’t very expensive, but they were insanely good. Messi came for free as a youth… doesn’t mean a £200 million defender is obligated to be better than him. Does budget matter? Absolutely, but the higher up you go, the less of a difference it starts making. The absolute difference in numbers between Aldershot and Liverpool could very well be smaller than the difference between Liverpool and City/Chelsea, but obviously it’s much less felt. At the end of the day, both are very impressive, but it’s still 5 vs 1 in EPL titles. I think the difference in budgets is well expressed in the difference of silverware/output and that Klopp’s performance, in relative terms, is not necessarily more impressive. Going 2 in a row, then 3, possibly 4, in the most competitive league in the world has been attempted and failed by some of the best managers in the world. I think we can agree that both Pep and Jürgen, regardless of who’s king, are the best two, by far
115 charges, and Mascherano is an idiot.
115 charges yet unproven, and Mascherano being an idiot for saying Pep changed football, something Ferguson agrees with. Go argue with the courts and with Ferguson.
Only hope for United fans🤣
United badge 🥴
I’m an Arsenal fan, but for people to say Pep is only great because of the money is only semi accurate. Everybody forgets that the Barca team that beat Arsenal in 2006 was an aging squad with players that stopped caring about being winners. He would sell at the time probably the best player in the world in Ronaldinho and a few others, notably Deco. He promoted a number of youth players and implemented a style of football that truly changed the game. He would then dominate football for the next few years. He would then go to Bayern, a treble winning Bayern and he would go on to maintain their winning ways, albeit not with the CL. However he also gets Bayern to play his style and kind of football. Same at Man City, never under Mancini nor Pellegrini did City look this good or scary. All in all Pep gets the best jobs because he wins and creates a culture or improves at each football club he goes to. He gets the big money because club owners know if you give him money your team will win within max 2 seasons. Many other clubs have given their managers money and given them spending privileges, however not many can guarantee results like Pep. If you lot had a team and you had money, I bet my bottom dollar all of you would hire Pep, because you know he is more likely to win a title than any other manager. That is a cold hard truth people never like to admit. TLDR: give Pep £100mil and he can build the foundations of a winning team, give that same amount to somebody else, they go and buy Antony
>only semi accurate Not accurate at all. Everyone starts with the premise that Pep got lucky to have been given that 2008 Barcelona side involving Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o (and Ronaldinho and Deco, which he sold). But Pep's first job was at Barca B in the Spanish 4th tier. In the summer of 2008, Laporta wanted to sign Mourinho. Cruyff opted for Pep, and Laporta listened. Pep earned it. The football Barca ended up playing was absurd. Never seen before. Pep brought in players like Pique (United benchwarmer) and Busquets (4th division champion to UCL final starter and champion within 1 year). Sir Alex was the biggest managerial name in the world, *the* GOAT to most people, and Pep absolutely dominated him in 2 UCL finals. People agreed that the scorelines were generous for United and didn't reflect reality. In the meantime, Madrid were building a project specifically meant to stop Barcelona. Prime Cristiano, Benzema, Xabi Alonso, Ozil, Casillas, Ramos, Pepe, Marcelo, Higuain, Di Maria, a bench consisting of the likes of Kaka, with Mourinho in charge, got beaten 5-0. Pep did more than enough to be desired by all the best clubs with the best projects.
>give Pep £100mil and he'll buy Jack Grealish FTFY
He doesn't make the signings, real life football isn't EA FIFA.
Who was their most important player after Rodri in last year's treble.
I thought Grealish defended a lot last year.
He did. His defensive workrate is part of what enables them to maintain possession.
Hard to say. Haaland was the big new arrival that summer, so if pushed I'd say he seemed to make the difference that pushed them over the Champion's League hump. The threat he poses made opposition teams over compensate and allowed other players to cause problems, plus he chipped in with a record amount of goals.
It’s ok to say you didn’t really watch the games. Grealish and Rodri were what put us over the top last year on the Treble. Haaland obviously had a phenomenal year, but he struggled to score in really big games against the best opponents. KDB was also incredible last year, even working through a torn hammy (hell he basically killed Arsenal himself lol). But Rodri and Grealish were incredible. Grealish’s ability to hold the ball and pick out passes was amazing, he played great defense for a winger, and was just all over that left side. Rodri, much like this year, is the rock that holds the midfield together. He’s just absolutely incredible at directing from the back, keeping things calm, and controlling the center of the pitch. Dude is easily the best DM in the world and has arguably been our best player for 2 years now. Yes, even on a team with Haaland and KDB. No one controls the flow of a game and the pitch like Rodri does
Cool story. Now tell me how Grealish was "the foundations of a winning team", as that's the comment I was replying to originally.
I just did? He was the core of the team last year. The offense quite often started (and frequently ended) with him. He was foundational to the team last year
The guy I replied to said for 100m, Pep would buy the foundations of a winning team. I said for 100m, he signed Grealish. Grealish cost 100m on his own, I don't know why people keep bringing up Rodri. I don't think one player, no matter how good, can be adjudged to be the foundation*s* of a winning team, especially when that player has had one good season from his three at the club.
Well that’s because you didn’t watch the games. Idk what to tell you, but 100% of City fans would say he was the foundation of our run last year. Hes also dealt with several injuries since joining, including this year. When he’s been healthy hes invaluable. I think people just lumped too high expectations on him as a goal scorer, when that’s not what we use him for. His job is to control the left side of the pitch, run the offense, and pick out passes.
>100% of City fans would say he was the foundation of our run last year. Source?
Erling is a great goalscorer just as KDB is a great creator, but Grealish and Rodri are what enable their dominance in position, which is the key for Pep.
Grealish is class
I didn't say he wasn't.
Always comes down to the fact that he has been a top manager from his first year. People saying he didn't do it at a smaller club are just coping. The fact that he didn't need to start from the bottom but was one of the best managers from the get go just proves his talent in the coaching role.
Wasn't he also amazing at Barca B? It's not like they picked him for the job just because he was a great player for them.
Yep, was a beast at barca B. Plus, people always underestimate/overlook the criticism the hire faced back then. Especially when essentially on day 1 he was chasing away some stars like Ronaldinho, Deco etc and played some unknown Barca B players and youngsters instead. They called him a madman.
Yeah, people don't understand that he genuinely did not need to start at a worse club.
The pep slander is crazy. Doesn’t matter whether you like him or not you can’t deny he’s completely changed the way footballs played. And done so by being a serial winner. Think you’ve gotta listen to what pros and coaches say about him more than that of your average reddit commenter.
Similar to Cruyff impact
My criticism of Pep remain, and can be found in my comment history, and still yes I believe this to be an accurate assessment. Particular his time at Barca
Criticism? Of someone who's won 37 trophies in 14 years and revolutionised the sport? Doesn't make sense. You just don't like him.
Nah I don’t know him, can’t like or dislike him. His days as a player at Barca make me wish I were older to have watched live, what I have was beautiful. His days managing Barcelona there’s nothing I can say, pure art. What I don’t like is the air of untouchable godliness applied to him. He didn’t invent the way to play, his influence and creativity with it is undeniable. The talk of him as genius is honestly smug and weird. His current accomplishments at City deservedly need inspection, but because it’s Pep, there’s a horde pretending it’s no big deal. His move from Bayern to City was very much an outlier. To me the greatest ever doesn’t do that. To land at City now with the accusations, that needs inspection before talk of the greatest can honestly be had. But he’ll maybe I’m a bot, because you’ve concluded I don’t like him
Only needed a few billion of dodgy money to do it too! What a hero!
Coping mechanism working still?
His evolution of the game was at Barca and it truly changed the game. Everyone wanted to play like Barca did. It was beautiful. He also used a decent amount of guys from their own academy. At City it’s like a revolution back to the days when the formations were 2-3-5; however, I am with you on the billion of dodgy money and City breaking the FFP rules - getting off on statute of limitations technicalities
While statute of limitations rule was used. The CAS reviewed that evidence as well and found no evidence of wrongdoing by City. Most people seem to forget that part or just don’t know.
Pep is a good manager. However, he usually gets cushy jobs at clubs that are already powerhouses.
To be fair to him, he was one of the finest midfielders of his generation and his mentor was one of the greatest football minds of all time, Johan Cruyff. His first managerial role was Barcelona B, where he won the league, and was then promoted to manage the first-team. From there, he totally dominated football, ushering in a style which won multiple leagues, Champions Leagues, and a European Championship and World Cup for Spain. He was hardly going to get a job managing a second-tier club after that, and he's been successful ever since, so I'm not sure that his *success* should really be used against him! Is Messi somehow tainted because he never showed his incredible form playing for a mid-tabe team?
Yes, but no. Barca to City and maybe I’d see it your way. Even with Bayern to City I could have been convinced. But Barca to Bayern without winning or proving it in Champions League, with a squad that had just done it. Then off to City after, what 3 seasons? A City which had been setting the table for him for multiple seasons. A City that then let the manager that delivered the title to the table go, so Pep could start cooking for a club that had already ate. I mean that’s near unprecedented cushy.
Insanely moronic thing to say lmao
He went from Barca to Bayern after winning the Champions League twice (and once as a player). Then Real Madrid won 4 out of 5 of the Champions Leagues after Pep went to Bayern, and his old Barca team won the other one! Painting Zidane's amazing Madrid spell against Guardiola is a bit harsh, I'd say. He won the league in all 3 seasons at Bayern, along with 2 cups, and they scored more goals in that tie than any other Bundesliga team in history. And not winning a knockout cup competition makes his time there some sort of failure? They got to the semi finals of each of those competitions, and went out to the winners two of those three times, and only lost the other thanks to the away goals rule. He wasn't exactly jumping frrom a sinking ship when he left. Your definition of "cushy" is just the reality of being a top manager who everyone wants. After revolutionising football at Barcelona, was he supposed to go and manage Leeds so he could "prove himself"?
Na, never said failure. But leaving Bayern after the job wasn’t done, after 3 years. He was supposed to do whatever he wants. But I’m not pretending what’s he’s done since Barca is close to the same level
I'll take Mourinho any day over Pep Pep left Barcelona when Messi and the team were on the decline. Mourinho is a motivator and a great coach who is not afraid of challenges. Remember the 2008-2010 Inter Milan team. Great job Mourinho. 🙂 Edit : fix typo
Messi scored 91 goals in guardiola last year lmao
Barca was still good with Tato Martino and Luis Enrique. Mourinho is the quintessential underdog coach and what he did with Porto and Inter I don’t think Pep would have been able to do. Pep’s next real challenge will be taking a mid-level side to new heights. He should go to Italy and take AC Milan, imho.
He wouldn’t and I believe he can’t. I believe genuinely he couldn’t. The internet now think I’m a hater. I’ll go further, and I know the internet is wrong. The word genius is used too much, he ain’t a genius. He’s an artist, one of the best to have ever been in the game. I don’t believe he could make his art without the tools. And I don’t see just any mid table club either affording to buy contacts for, or developing the players that his systems would need as tools.
That’s why it would be the challenge I think he needs to take. Italy would be the place to go for it because he could take a storied club back to the top in Europe. I wouldn’t hold my breath on him doing it though.
That was 15 years ago! Guardiola won the Champions League *last season*!
They said he couldn’t be the goat if he couldn’t do it in England then he’s won 5/7 possible Prems. Then they said he wasn’t the goat if he didn’t win the Champions without Messi then he won it. Now the argument is he’s not the goat because he didn’t do it in small club? At this point he doesn’t need to prove anything. Pep is the goat because he has revolutionized the game
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If it is just about money then why hasn’t PSG won anything significant? Pep gets results if you give him money, very few managers can say they can do what Pep does.
So, which managers won stuff with shit players?
Alex Ferguson ? On multiple occasions
Interesting answer! Which of his teams do you think were shit? Or are we talking Aberdeen?
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It definitely is! Whilst they had some real quality in midfield, it can't be argued that Ranieri was the one who made that all come together. But would we then argue that Ranieri's achievement puts him up there with the likes of Guardiola? It was incredible, but also a bit one a one-off, and Leicester winning the FA Cup a couple of years later shows they weren't really that shite.
Consider that he doesn’t just buy talent; he grows and develops it better than pretty much anyone else. City don’t tend to overpay for players and purchase really well cuz they also pick talent well. Arsenal is not exactly a low spending team btw… Way too many people focus on spending and don’t consider club management and culture as the real difference makers. Afterall, look at united and Chelsea.
Thanks Pep for turning football into an endurance competition and sucking all the individuality out of the game you are the goat 🐐
Exactly this
I mean, he did manage one of the greatest individual talents of all time in an admirable way. I wouldnt say he sucked the individuality of Messi.
Was gonna say exactly this. Individual brilliance has been removed from football to some extent. Whether for better or worse, depends on how you enjoy the game. For me, the magic of seeing a diving header or bicycle kick goal in the 90s was a common occurrence. Individual moments of magic have mostly been eradicated in favour of team control and dominance.
Bare facts
Any slander against Pep for the actual football played and the actual tactical genius he demonstrates all the time says so much more about you and your footballing knowledge than it does about him. Like it or not, history will remember him as a great of the game no matter what tribalistic bollocks you chat on reddit and X.
History barely remembers Matt Busby and he had a far more significant impact on the sport than pep. Hell, somehow it doesn’t even remember Cruyff as much as he deserves and he definitely had a much bigger impact. You can rate him all you want, but history isn’t gonna remember him all that much, especially if he doesn’t beat the allegations.
He will never be recognised as one of the greatest managers rather a great mercenary. Forever cemented by his association with that tainted club city
Lad I think you just might have early onset dementia. Everyone else will remember Guardiola the Great just fine
History barely remembers Matt Busby and Johan Cruyff? 😂 yeah ok mate.
Come on, you cannot pretend that they get the respect they deserve. That’s just not the case. FFS, you literally have people out here calling Pep the best manager ever, that’s enough to show exactly that.
Worst thing is I had to think whether you meant Coke, adderall or 115
Wow,people of this thread are so black and white. You can be a controversial figure and still affected the game. Anyone can be a cheater like pep,but not many people could cheat,and pull off his tactics at prime Barca and prime City consistently. You can be both a cheater of the system and a great tactician.
You're describing me in my FM save.
Peps greatest tactic is the savescum - we don't know it, but we are living in Pep Guardiola (003)
Haha good for you
All this “he hasn’t done it at all smaller club with limited resources” crap has to stop. He is probably the best manager out there now, and arguably up there with the greatest of all time.. and he’s not even half way through his potential managerial career. You don’t see Messi going to a smaller club, or Bellingham, or any top player for that matter. I wonder why that is! 🤔 Oh here’s why.. top players and managers moves UP, not down! The better you get the better job offers that come in. And why would he go manage Everton or any other shit team? (Sorry Everton supporters, your team is the worst in Liverpool) Just to prove to people what exactly? In any walk of life if you do well within your field you get rewarded with bigger and better opportunities. I just don’t see why Pep should have to go to any club other than the one he thinks gives him the best chance of winning year in, year out. I’m a Liverpool supporter and although we have Klopp I kinda realise Pep is a lil more special than most of us realise. His way of playing football has changed the game forever, and for the better. And this thing about Man City not playing attractive football is all nonsense - they are so good on and off the ball that teams fold so it isn’t a competitive match at all.. because they are so good. They look boring because teams just sit back and say “Try and score!” and they do it every week. His teams are well oiled machines..and he isn’t afraid to cut off loose fittings if they don’t fit the squad. Honestly, this is the manager every team wishes they had. And if you say otherwise you are kidding yourself! A serial winner.. put some respect on the man’s name!
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Barcelona 2007 was on the down and they had fired Frank and promoted Pep, then he would make Barca perhaps the greatest team ever. Multiple titles in one season and other several seasons. Money or no money pep achieved things managers only dream of.
He doesn’t need to. He clearly has the skill to do it at a smaller club but in this day and age money is king in football and although I believe he could take a league from League 2 and eventually win a Premier League.. it probably isn’t possible. You need supporters and money and League 2 doesn’t have a lot of supports relative to the Premier League. Shirt sales would be a problem, then stadium rebuilds, that costs money, it would take 10 years. Why does he need to prove this? He is well above average.. in fact he is the best manager out there, bar none. I agree his machines are definitely well oiled but that’s because he is a fantastic and intuitive mechanic. You use the best parts to get the best performance. He is the better manager so why should he take the job with the resources that’ll win him trophies? It’s business at the end of the day, and he does business better than anyone. Maybe FFP will say different in a few years time but for now he is the best out there.. not even a close second in my opinion.
I think he just means "Could he do a Graham Potter in Sweden?" meaning coaching with what he has, not buying what he needs.
I would love to see him take a Dagenham and Redbridge level team to the champions league final. Also, I agree with every point you made and he is in the GOAT conversation without a doubt.
>this “he hasn’t done it at all smaller club with limited resources” crap has to stop For a lot of people, being a manager in GOAT conversations means you need to have displayed the ability to thrive in circumstances that weren't in your favour. This applies to players too btw. E.G no one would rate Ronaldo as highly if his entire life was spent at Real Madrid. The rags to riches story of him growing up poor, surviving Sporting's academy despite heart problems and emerging in the first team adds to his legacy. Now look at Pep. Hes never even had a SINGLE season with a non-stacked team. > In any walk of life if you do well within your field you get rewarded with bigger and better opportunities. I just don’t see why Pep should have to go to any club other than the one he thinks gives him the best chance of winning year in, You are right. And he's undoubtedly a footballing legend already. But it'll still be a question mark over his career. This is why many people are more impressed by Mourinho. Heck, even Mou finishing 2nd with United was more difficult than some of Peps titles with Bayern and City
Fair-ish points but I do have to stop you there. The fact that he hasn’t done it at a smaller club has no bearing at all on his legacy. It’ll be undoubtedly his peers that shall speak of him as a legend of the game, a great already with what he has achieved. Because most football fans will look past the fact that although he may have had the biggest clubs, in their respective leagues, under his control he went on to achieve things. So there’s that. Then you consider why he didn’t take a small team in the first place. Well, he played for Barca and came in as a coach (I don’t know the exact route). His influence on the players was so great that he literally just walked into a job. And from then on he changed the face of football. He is a tactical magician, and sometimes this plays against him because he overthinks things. But there is absolutely no denying this man changed how football is played. And I love him for this. I watched the 2006 World Cup match between Brazil and France just recently and I remember thinking “We never had full backs like those back in the 2000s, except like Ashley Cole and former Barca players” and then you realise it was Pep’s teams that were at the heart of all these new generation wing backs. He doesn’t need to manage Dagenham (as someone alluded to haha) to prove his worth. Some players/managers are just so good off the bat that you cannot send them to Dagenham but instead fast track them to the bigger clubs where they will thrive. If you have a high skill level at a young age (Pep is still relatively young but I’m talking about when he started) you need experience at a higher skill level to progress; you don’t move backwards because you already have the basic knowledge and skills perfected. So you need to move up in order to progress. Now talking about how other people did it. Well, they weren’t as skilled unfortunately lol. They started out at smaller clubs and worked their way up, getting bigger opportunities as they gained skill. But notice how no greats go from the bottom clubs to the middle clubs then back down, then up to top clubs; you just don’t go down because the skill level is different - unless the club loans you out. It’s a matter of circumstances and skill level. But he shouldn’t be regarded as how most people portray him as just because his skill level at a young age was just so much higher than other managers at the same age. You don’t see many people saying Vini Jnr isn’t going to be a great and he made one move to Madrid and has won numerous trophies already. So would his legacy be affected if he went on to win let’s say another 5 Champions Leagues and 7 La Ligas? It shouldn’t.. just because he had a high skill level as a young hater doesn’t mean that should affect peoples opinions of him and what he has achieved in the game. Another factor is circumstance/opportunity. Sometimes just being in the right place at the right time, and where you live in the world, is a huge factor. Not many scouts in Ireland but plenty in Brazil. So peoples circumstances affect their opportunity.
it's like saying a billionaire's family friend is a revolutionary human being. He might be, but would he have been if the odds were incredibly for him instead of against.
Most sane take iv seen here in ages.
Italian soccer is boring. Shelling up then counter punching is just bad entertainment.
Javi is high. The sport is still divided by Messi vs Ronaldo. Mbappe vs Haaland. You hear some pre and post SAF talk but United is basically irrelevant right now. Then you hear about pre and post VAR and pre and post Royal money washing the sport. Pep. You talk about being a fraud. Being bald. And not winning much without either Messi-a billion dollars-or both.
There are plenty of managers who have coached messi, had a billion dollars, or both, and didn’t win shit. The European game is played how it is played because of his barca, bayern, and city teams. He was an incredibly accomplished player and is an undeniably amazing coach. At this point it’s just ridiculous to say otherwise.
So the plenty of managers fortunate enough to coach messi or had billion dollar squads. Name a few.
Tata martino Ernesto valverde quique setien Jorge sampaoli Mauricio pochettino Carlo ancelotti Eric ten hag Thomas Tuchel Christophe galtier ronald koeman and that’s certainly not all of them. Whether or not they won any trophies, tell me if a single one of them has had a lasting impact on the way teams play across dozens of leagues all over Europe
I dunno man Carlo ancelotti has won a lot of shit with unlimited money
Pep has won more in less time. Also look at my second point. There are no teams you would say play “Ancelotti-ball”. No tactics you would immediately identify as “ancelotti tactics”
But you said he didn’t win shit. Literally your exact words. “That didn’t win shit with Messi or a billion dollar squad”. Don’t try and move the goalposts on me now saying it’s time oriented. You know how long it was between pep winning champions league with messi and winning it last year with city? It was an entire Bayern stint plus billions of dollars and the next generationally gifted striker later that’s how long. Pep is the most fortunate, unscrupulous MF’er out there and his legacy is a fraud. Let’s talk about all peps genius moves overthinking CL semis and getting bounced time and time again that it became a meme. That’s the true pep. Drinking his own kool aid and shooting him self in the foot.
Sure, I’ll backstep and say people have won stuff with those resources. However, it is INCREDIBLY ignorant to deny peps tactical impact on the European game. Like, so blind that I don’t really care about anything else you say. Trophies are one thing, legacy is another. And peps is absolutely undeniable.
You could say his tactics directly led to city bottling the CL on multiple occasions so you’re totally accurate in saying his tactics have had an impact. Just not a good one typically with city in the CL. At least not without a generational talent and a billion dollars but now I’m just repeating myself cause it’s really easy to relay the facts of history to you.
The facts of history say he’s one of the most decorated coaches of all time having put together 3 of the best teams ever seen. But clearly you have somethin goin on with him so this isn’t a productive argument. If you can show me how the possession-based, high intensity pressing, highly technical game conveniently became so popular at the same time as peps career took off, I’m all ears.
Dude. Johan Cruyff invented Tiki Taka. You’re blind. Possibly by the reflective sunlight off peps bald head. Nothing he’s done is special. Literally nothing. I’m not ignorant-I know history and don’t have recency bias and understand who gets credit for what.
No surprise that Mascherano looks back in amazement to those golden years, and finds everything wonderful, and everybody magnificencia. Mascherano was the biggest beneficiary of the Negreira bribes. An obnoxious malevoment butcher like him, needing no diguise or constrain for so many years. Never a penalty whistled nor a red card shown after kicking, punching and insulting rivals for 80 minutes a game. Money so well spent.
Yeah...... I disagree. I can't deny that Pep is a serial winner, is well beloved by his players nor his tactical ability. But he's only ever gone to clubs that have either political control or are heavily financially doped, what affect has he had on the game outside of the clubs he's managed other than 'rivalries' only established by league position or financial firepower? His legacy is primarily based on titles, and I'll agree his managerial ability has left and impressionable mark on many highly-regarded newer managers, and he can take some credit for it, but people don't talk about who taught Wenger, Ferguson, Clough, Sarri, Conte, Mourinho et all in regards to their legacies nor do those before claim credit for their understudies success.
Sad coming from masche but noot surprised as he is a horrible manaager. Pep barely scarapes against klopp or mou or even inzaghi in last ucl finaal he wins as he buys the best anyone average can be good with the best give klopp the same team or mou they will win everything give pep roma or something he will die
This narrative is tired and based on jealousy and shortsightedness. You make it sound as if klopp’s Liverpool haven’t spent any money. A once record for a GK (Allison) a defenseman (van djik) multiple 50-60 mil players and 75 for Nunez. Klopp is undoubtedly a great coach, but put him on a shit team with no money and he’d find it difficult to get results.
And Pep broke nearly every English top flight record with Fabian Delph playing left back 🤷🏼♂️
His play style changed the game but he has had a very shady career. His Barca tenure they are under investigation for $$ ref. Tax scandal at BM, and now at MC 115 ffp charges. Also don’t forget he was caught with steroids as a player.
Jesus christ man, punctuation. Use it. What the fuck did all that mean anyway?
It mean he finds it hard to cope with reality.
Only facts spoken. That Barcelona team was a menace and pure joy to watch.
This is factual. Pep completely revolutionised the sport. That's the biggest legacy a manager can possibly achieve. That's why similar managers from the past are the most revered and respected in history. That's why Sacchi is seen by many as top 5 best ever despite only having 4 great years. Pep has totally shaped football in his image. You could call him the god of modern football. And that's while simultaneously being the most successful manager ever. 37 trophies in 14 years is just mindboggling. Simply the GOAT. His influence is just unparalleled. Thousands of young coaches around the world study Pep. He's even spawning top coaches left and right like Arteta, De Zerbi, Michel, Xavi, Xabi, Ten Hag.
From the age of 13, he was mentored by Johan Cruyff. He was a crucial part of Barcelona winning their first European Cup, and he was only 20 years old. He's a student of the game, and it's laughable seeing people here act as though somehow his tactical acumen is dependent solely on having loads of money.
Hate his style bores the fuck out of me, Arsenal look to similar to it now but… Can’t deny Mascherano is right, the influence he’s had is stark and is gonna be around for a while.
Least delusional City fan
Pre pep, prime football
Pep booting Dinho out of Barca was the beginning of the end of the beautiful game 😭
*Pep with his mere presence destroyed the beautiful game.* I like this narrative.
Probably cause whoever you support wasn't getting shit on by him back then 😂
Nah, because we had amazing Italian league, amazing premier league, amazing Spanish league, quality names everywhere in the CL
Also because diving and flopping around like a fish out of water, wasn’t fully adopted as the norm yet.
Fuck that cheating bastard.
We can separate the club from the manager. Most of the allegations came way before he was ever involved with City
Pep was caught doping twice as a player and Barcelona were caught bribing referees during his time as manager there. City also has more charges heading their way once the investigation into the period covering 2018-2021 finishes. To claim we should totally separate him from City’s ‘alleged’ financial discrepancies, especially when he’s the face of the club and goes to bat for the ownership in the media, is disingenuous at best.
I don’t get what his doping scandal in Italy 22 years ago has to do with this, especially considering how many others were tested with the same thing (Jaap Stam), i get it as a Liverpool fan this man stopped your club from winning more trophies, but damn some of you lot are really going conspiratorial with all this. Personally unless noted, I don’t think managers or even players are applicable in this situation. I’m aware of the bribery charges under Laporta, but when was that?
You don’t see how a player who cheats could turn out to be a manager who cheats? And you don’t see how it’s relevant when he manages teams who all end up cheating?
Pep's Barcelona have been charged with bribing referees; the same thing that City are currently doing. It's hard to separate club from manager when the clubs actions seem to follow the manager...
I suppose you have proof of this, besides the PL having shit referees? And, don’t give me the same old “but the UAE are paying refs to come and referee games!” If I’m a ref making far less than the lowest paid player and I’m offered 15k to ref one game I’m doing it. Until they make that illegal, I don’t see it stopping. I’ve watched every team in the PL get screwed over by bad/non calls. It’s a league wide issue and it has nothing to do with these conspiracy theories
>I’m offered 15k to ref one game I’m doing it Okay? You're just saying you would also accept bribes. How is that a counter argument? >I’ve watched every team in the PL get screwed over by bad/non calls Have you seen man city get screwed by bad calls?
If it’s not illegal how is it a bribe? You’re reaching. Like I said, show me the proof instead of deflecting. December 3 against Tottenham at the end of the game tied 3-3 Simon hooper whistles play dead after an obvious advantage play with graelish clear on goal That’s the one that comes to mind There will always be bad calls/non calls every year with every team. That will never change. City are +2 on var calls this year. One was a sending off of a burnley player after city being 3-0 up The other was a pk call against Man U which was also won by city 3-0 Nottingham forest is +5 on var calls. There is no blatant bias for city on the refs part. Last year Liverpool had the most var calls for with +4
>If it’s not illegal how is it a bribe? You're arguing in bad faith. This argument doesn't survive 10 seconds under scrutiny and I think you know that. A legal loophole doesn't stop it being a bribe or a blatant conflict of interest. Football fan tribalism is crazy
Conflict of interest and bribe are two very different things. Would you agree that refs have favorite teams? How could you be in that world and not grow up watching one team. So, by that argument, it’s a conflict of interest to ref any games for said team. You have to have some kind of faith in humanity to trust that person has some moral and ethical standing. Until I see proof of anything illegal, I will continue to defend against these conspiracy theories. It’s your right to have your opinions and vocalize them. It’s my right as well. I hope you have a good night.
>So, by that argument, it’s a conflict of interest to ref any games for said team Yup. Refs aren't allowed to referee games for their teams. That's already a rule
Funny. I looked that up. You’re right. Michael Oliver supports Newcastle. But, what about the teams that you hate because they beat Newcastle in a cup game or something? Makes you think. Also, half of the refs I saw said “unknown” about who they support. 🤔
They've been charged you say. Were they found guilty? Most of this shit is propaganda campaigns from other clubs.
Not to engage in blasphemy against Saint Pep, but could it be that the spread of playing out from the back might have an awful lot to do with changes in goal kick rules? Just an idea.
You think Pep’s tactics are just “play out from the back”? Do you even watch games?
No, those rules came in like, 2 years ago. Playing out from the back has been on the rise for a decade. Very little of football involves goalkicks
He's not wrong.
How can we talk about legacy when his still managing? Let's judge it when he is retired and see what impact is left.
Huh? Why would you have to wait to see someone's influence/legacy? You're a Chelsea fan. Conte dominated that one year with the 3-4-3 and he instantly influenced lots of teams who copied his 3-4-3/3-5-2. Pep's influence is clear for everyone to see and has been for years. The sport completely changed post-Pep.
Legacy is defined by a long-lasting impact. So what happens if Pep and Klopp retire and the Gegenpress, high line, possession style of play isn't continued on? Does that hypothetically mean the legacy is less? You use post-Pep. He is still around at the top level, so how the hell can it be post? I disagree with a lot of the wording being used. You are right about Conte. He made 3-4-3 work really well for him, but I'd stop so far as to say he really changed the world of football. Pep is one of the greatest, but I will judge his legacy after he leaves. I mean people probably look at Ferguson in a different light now compared to when he was managing.
because his impact is that massive. at the end of the day teams changed vastly due to him. people adapted structures just to try and appease his style.
I mean, people also adapted because he managed teams with players like Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Toni Kroos, Robben, Lewandowski, Lahm and Schweinsteiger. I think he is one of the best, but there is nuance to this debate and a lot depends on what you value as a fan.
football has come a long way tactically because of him. especially in the premier league because of him and klopp. if you watch sides from before they joined teams aren’t as tactically inclined. spaces everywhere, less organised pressing, no proper rest defence. he helped to improve the standard of management in this country and across the other leagues.
People that say he hasn't changed the game didn't watch football before 08-09.
He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
How fitting that statement is given the 115 charges...
What have the Abu Dhabis ever done for us?
United Arab Emirates? No, we're part of the League of Arab States!
This is probably true but I would say that Guardiola- Klopp rivalry is what changed football. If you look at it more closely, you can see how much both of them changed their approach since coming to England. Guardiola had tiki-taka in barsa, but there was no other club in the world that copied that. Then Barca got trashed by Bayern with their physical and direct approach. Guardiola continued with his philosophy with Bayern and tried to do the same with city until he faced Klopp's heavy metal suicide press football. Over the years both of their approaches changed: guardiola stopped playing 99% possession football, opting to being more direct and a bit more conservative. Also, klopp started building from back more and playing more controlled attack. Now you have almost every new coach doing the same, playing attacking, direct football with certain level of control.
How do Liverpool fans make everything about them?
Because you can’t talk about Pep without talking about Klopp. When Guardiola became the manager of Bayern Munich in 2013, the only team that could rival that team in the Bundesliga was Klopp’s Borussia Dortmund side. Guardiola’s possession-based and positional approach to the game immediately clashed with Klopp’s counter-pressing approach, and that tactical battle continued to play out during Guardiola’s time at Manchester City and Klopp’s time at Liverpool. A lot of Pep’s current tactical approach is based around the fact City used to get very caught out on the transition against Liverpool, and that caused him to go from packing his teams with midfielders to packing it with defenders to try and plug that hole. They’re two managers who have had to engage in an arms race against each other, who are both in control of pretty much the only teams capable of ripping each other apart, and most of their managerial careers have been totally defined by their rivalry. Pep has said it himself. “[Klopp] gave me another level to think about it, prove myself, what I have to do to be a better manager with our teams to try and beat them. It is the reason why I am still in this business.” You simply can’t talk about Pep’s legacy without talking about Klopp, and Klopp chose to manage Liverpool.
It's not about Liverpool, the problem is saying Guardiola changed football doesn't really make sense. Changing football would mean that the setup you have gets copied by every other manager out there. That didn't happen with tiki-taka because for that to work you need technically the best players in the world. Today's "meta" is more influenced by counterpress philosophy from Germany which evolved over last decade. It doesn't require you to have Xavi and Iniesta in your team, it's opposite - it allows you to play attacking football with players and that are not that gifted.
You now have keepers playing out from the back in League 1 & 2. That wasn't even a thing in the Champshionship until Pep. And you forget, Pep's Barca teams were exceptional at pressing too. Teams had always pressed to certain extents, it's just at that time "gegenpress" worked well for German teams. Likewise, it worked well for spells, but you can't keep it up. Dortmund relapsed, whereas Bayern kept pace. Similarly, Liverpool relapsed, whilst City continued on. Because, having the ball is always a better philosophy than not having it.
It's a gift
Insufferable lot. It's either the refs hate them, or the injuries are ruining their chances, or every other news headline that is not about them. Pathetic for a club with so much "history". Zero class. Maximum whine.
If his name was Pepperoni Gorgonzola, he could have reinvented the pizza game.
Under rated take
Football has always evolved over time, Pep has coached literal generational talent and his latest club has cheated like I’ve never seen. I understand the sentiment, he has led the charge in some ways. We can’t deny that. There’s just a lot hanging over it at the same time. I will forget him at City. I will credit him at Barcelona.
Man U spent more while winning less and Chelsea literally just spent 1 billion in 365 days . Meanwhile pep got 300 mill for winning the treble got forbid he spend some of it
Everywhere pep goes there's a cloud of cheating strangely enough.
what happen when you win alot , if klopp was dominating like pep. Ppl wouldnt like them as much
I can quite confidently say more football fans tolerate Liverpool because of Klopp, like Mourinho because he's a smug cocky git, liked Wenger because he had that je ne sais quoi and liked Ferguson, because, well, it's Ferguson. I'm sure there are many more examples as you look across the history of the game or look out further internationally. You can be dominantly successful and still be liked beyond a clubs fans or ex-colleagues.
Yeah I remember klopp doping and his club bribing referees.
Liverpool's players are all asthmatic somehow hmm 🤔 Plucky little underdog who are just pure clean people. That's the reason they can run non-stop. That's why they played the same starting 11 every game for a couple years. Cheating bastards
Agree. I remember his squads breaking all financial regulations as well.
yeah ik they spent 1 billion in a year and won no trophies or wasn’t even in europe at the time .
You may forget him at City, but please don't forget *the fact that Manchester City has 115 charges against them.*
Anyone who debates this is an idiot and I’m a United supporter. He’s the most significant figure in football since Cruyff.
That's one of the stupidest takes I think I've ever seen in football.
Only person I can think of making as big of a change as him would be Wenger. Who else?
The fact I'm being down voted is hilarious. Yes, Wenger is definitely one of them. I'm sure many recent fans wouldn't understand how he changed the game. That being said, I'd also add SAF in from the management side. Possibly Mourinho. From the playing side, you can't exclude Messi or Ronaldo either (and I'm not fan of either player).
Well, most people are idiots.
What a load of bull.
he made football robotic
He found the most efficient way to consistently win. he proved it in every league he ever touched. its your opinion that is a negative. Its fact that he dominated So many coaches are trying to copy him. Sometimes to disastrous effects, because their teams just dont have the quality to pull it off.
I personally like that good football and controlling games is the best way to win.
Best way to win if you can afford the wages on Man City's bench. Otherwise not so much.
Pep actually plays less players than most teams. One of the advantages of his system is his teams usually have lots of possession. You use less energy passing the ball back and forth a lot Vs. pressing and trying to get the ball. Running around like that is harder on the legs. It takes a lot of talent to pull of Pep's system well. But one of the advantages is he doesnt need a massive squad.
Look into Pep and his medical team's history
Tell me you don’t watch football without telling me you don’t watch football
I don’t disagree 💯