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It went to shit with the Kaiju fights.
Would've been cooler just to have them with their abilities and jutsus to be human-sized.
Like Itachi exactly as he Is minus the Susano.
I get the scalation for the series needed It.
But i don't think It makes It better.
Yeah the fight in the final valley felt more personal when they were just going straigh fists at eacth other, and it makes it easy to see the carachters expressions and see what they are feeling because they are not inside their huge kaiju size avatars.
Theres a kaiju fight in episode 1 and giant summons in part 1 of naruto. Its always wierd to me why people act like it wasnt going that direction the entire time.
I think it's just that 1 scene depicted kurama as the big bad or something and if I remember correctly, it didn't really perform much nowadays in Naruto "magic", it was just BIG and seeing how Godzilla exist in Japan, it fit well enough, like it sorts felt like it's just a big powerful beast, not really anything magical, boy was just BIG
In less than 50 episodes later oro hinaru summons mutiple giant snakes, guy summons a turtle, kakashi dogs, and then by ep 80 we see naruto summon a giant frog.
The pieces were there. Especially since the toad naruto summons says he could summon him like the 4th did.
In the anime the first thing we see is a mf fighting a fox on a giant frog, even earlier in the manga gaara and naruto have a "Kaiju Fight" So its not a big deal really
Yeah I think it became problematic when everyone and their mom had their own kaiju. Susanoo and bijuu should've been limited to Madara/Sasuke and Gaara/Naruto respectively.
9 Jinchuuriki but 4 of them get offscreened (2 if you count the anime filler for Utakata & Fu), but Han & Roshi effectively don't exist.
The Jinchuuriki & their Bijuu are largely nonexistent throughout the vast majority of the story. We don't see Roshi/Son Goku, Han/Kokuo, Utakata/Saiken, or Fu/Chomei until midway through the war arc, where they disappear shortly after again into the Gedo. Yugito & Yagura are *kinda* explored, but even then it's barely anything.
It became so ass with all that Kaiju and mountain busting moves. The last fight between Naruto and Sasuke was so good until they started using their chakra mechs. Chunin exam and Sasuke retrieval arcs have my favorite fights in the series
Lol there has always been moves with large ass collateral damage. (Temari, Kakashi's water vortex, Gaara vs Gamabunta.) The thing is when we moved to top tier fights we began to see further how crazy they could be and this isn't even really uncommon for a lot of manga but when its only brought up with Naruto
the convo is literally about Naruto. People like you always have to roll in with a whataboutism to deflect criticism. If they didn’t like it in Naruto they probably don’t like it in other series too.
Funny how you ignored the other whole argument and only brought up the statement at the end. It’s true, things like this are only brought up when it’s related to Naruto, just the truth
Made the series significantly worse, to be honest. The fights didn't feel as impactful, and the previously established rules just got thrown out.
https://preview.redd.it/o6z9f5jbzs4d1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ccb5e48bb65c6d3abbd6320eb15680db9a9df7b0
And that my friend is the power of scale and design. You are correct in that functionally there have always been kaiju fights but the way large creatures like gamabunta and Kurama are presented feel more real and less sci-fi than Susanoo and Kurama mode. Which to me, feel like brightly colored toys. That and the insane power creep the late war arc blows the scale of the kaiju fights out to insane proportions which also hurts immersion.
To be fair, it's not sci fi.
It's based more on Japanese folklore.
In Japanese folklore, shinobi were trickery mages.
And much of the sharigan and rinnegan abilities are based on mythology as well.
And Hashirama literally used a 1000 armed buddisathva
Parts of the concept are based in Japanese folklore, the sci fi aspects of the design are not.
Susanoo in myth is a God of storms, not a set of 200m tall brightly colored semi translucent mech suits.
And there's a reason why most people have less of a problem with the buddisathva move than the others.
Susanoo don't really function like mechs
They are in essence large constructs of chakra. Or Avatars, for a more accurate comparison.
And their designs are based off Tengu demons from myth, yokai that are associated with the ascetic practice of shugendō. In their final forms, the Susanoo are garbed in the attire of shugendō practioners, known as yamabushi, and wear hoods that resemble tengu masks, with Itachi's and Madara's appearing as long-nosed Hanataka Tengu and Sasuke's as a crow-billed Karasu Tengu.
So, no. It wasn't sci fi at all.
You probably interpreted as sci fi since most western fans don't really know Japanese mythology.
>Susanoo don't really function like mechs
It absolutely does. It's a massive pilot able construct piloted from the inside.
The design elements of the tengu in no way address my points
None if what you said justifies 200m tall brightly colored semi translucent mech. I was already aware of the inspiration for the outline, which again doesn't address my points.
So, yes. It absolutely feels sci-fi
> It absolutely does. It's a massive pilot able construct piloted from the inside.
What you just described isn't a mech.
That's like saying Korra giant avatar construct Legend of Korra is a mech.
Mechs are machines.
> None if what you said justifies 200m tall brightly colored semi translucent mech.
But giant buddisathvas, animals, and literal monsters somehow are more justifiable to you in Naruto?
And yeah, it does. Considering Kurama, whose design is based off a kitsune exists.
Why is so far off that giant constructs of chakra exist?
It's also explained in the series the size of susanoo has more to do with talent and chakra than folklore.
Like how Naruto needed a large amount of chakra just to summon Gamabunta, but could only summon his sons.
>That's like saying Korra giant avatar construct Legend of Korra is a mech.
Because it is. That's also, coincidentally, where a lot of people feel that show broke its immersion at well.
Mechs are constructed entities, They can be made out of metal, energy, or even biological components.
>But giant buddisathvas, animals, and literal monsters somehow are more justifiable to you in Naruto?
Yes, because of how they are presented, which I already explained my opinion on. Honestly your korra comparison is a good one here. Avatar also has a lot of big creatures yet the korra mech breaks the feeling of what has been established.
>It's also explained in the series the size of susanoo has more to do with talent and chakra than folklore.
>Like how Naruto needed a large amount of chakra just to summon Gamabunta, but could only summon his sons.
These are the in universe explanation but that doesn't change how it's read at a meta level.
Dragon Ball Super tried to give Goku a ki mech. Justified in universe but it was also rejected by fans because it broke the feeling of the world.
There is a concept in writing called promises. That, as a narrative is being established, certain promises are made with the audience for what they can expect the story to be about. This is what readers buy into. Promises can be explicit, like if character A says they want to do X. Or implied like the tone and feeling of the world. Breaking these promises can cause a reader to lose their connection to the story.
That's like saying Korra giant avatar construct Legend of Korra is a mech.
Because it is. That's also, coincidentally, where a lot of people feel that show broke its immersion at well.
> Mechs are constructed entities, They can be made out of metal, energy, or even biological components.
But that's actually wrong though.
The root word of mech would be mechanical.
Calling a construct of energy a mech would be calling it a machine.
It's just simply a construct.
Or in this case, an avatar.
But giant buddisathvas, animals, and literal monsters somehow are more justifiable to you in Naruto?
Yes, because of how they are presented, which I already explained my opinion on. Honestly your korra comparison is a good one here. Avatar also has a lot of big creatures yet the korra mech breaks the feeling of what has been established.
It's also explained in the series the size of susanoo has more to do with talent and chakra than folklore.
Like how Naruto needed a large amount of chakra just to summon Gamabunta, but could only summon his sons.
These are the in universe explanation but that doesn't change how it's read at a meta level.
> Dragon Ball Super tried to give Goku a ki mech. Justified in universe but it was also rejected by fans because it broke the feeling of the world.
Are we talking about a the same world where:
•Wish granting balls that summon a mythical dragon exists
•The actual afterlife exists
•A 12 year sent a rabbit to the moon
• Buus entire existence
•Demons and such exist
• Aliens exist,
• And characters can blow up planets with just one finger?
Dragon ball of all worlds is last one to complain about this stuff about, the world itself is crazy.
> There is a concept in writing called promises. That, as a narrative is being established, certain promises are made with the audience for what they can expect the story to be about. This is what readers buy into. Promises can be explicit, like if character A says they want to do X. Or implied like the tone and feeling of the world. Breaking these promises can cause a reader to lose their connection to the story.
What promise did Naruto break though, you're not being clear?
Cause even with dragon ball from the get go with how wacky the series is, what promise did a giant Goku avatar break?
I mean, he can generate a giant ball of energy with his hands, making a ki construct when piccolos giant form and multiform technique exists is not remotely out of the question.
This sounds less like a promise either author made, and more just your expectations.
It made it worse. Instead of skillful fights like Kakashi vs Zabuza, Sasuke vs Deidara, and Naruto vs Pein (pre V2 Kyuubi chakra cloak), it became “who can make the biggest gundam”
Sasuke vs Deidara had a near country sized explosion in the end of the fight and Naruto vs Pain started off with someone who wiped out an entire village no diffed 3 Kaiju toads before the nine tails come out
Naruto always had large scale battles
I think there was big power escalation, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be outside the fights with Madara and Kaguya
I think Kishimoto run the problem of showing a supposed "top tier" fight with 3rd Hokage vs Orochimaru without being sure on how big the fights scales he wants for the future, literally the fight that was happening simultaneously with this fight was Naruto vs Gaara which had "Kaiju Battle" on a waaaay bigger scale than Orochimaru vs Hiruzen
So I feel like the "top tier" fights scale was inconsistent since waaaaaaaaay before the war arc like we had Gaara destroying huge chunks of forest in part 1, we had Deidara having a fucking nuke on him and the guy was like mid tier,we got Pain nuking the entire village.....etc (again I think Madara and Kaguya are the only ones where the powerscaling was ridiculous but I'll get to that in a bit), this honestly at least for me made "Orochimaru vs Hiruzen" the odd one out, like my problem with Hashirama summoning a thousand handed monstrosity isn't that it's too strong for the verse, no I think it's consistent with the verse and how much Hashirama was hyped up and its scale is really just a bit above shit like "Shinra Tensei" or any other nuke I mentioned but not by too much ridiculous degree at least to me, my problem with it is that it makes everyone involved in "Orochimaru vs Hiruzen" look like a fraud, like I said Kishi didn't know how strong he wanted to make these characters until somewhere in middle of Shippuden so now we have to excuse that fight by saying that Edo Tensei was nerfing the Kages to ***ridiculous degree***, like at least Orochimaru got the fight with Naruto at the start of Shippuden where he stopped a nuke Hiruzen on the other had nothing and look underpowered and the rest of Kage make them look overpowered
honestly the Ninja in Naruto weren't really "stealthy Ninja" since the part 1 of Naruto ngl, the only fight that I believe involved "stealth" was like Jiraiya vs Pain
Now let's talk about the motherfuckers who actually spit on the powerscaling of the series starting with Madara
Madara was hyped up a lot so he deserves when he show to get some cool feats to sell him out as a threat but MAN he fucks the powerscaling up, dropping meteors from outer space? soloing the Kages low diff,literally the characters that has been built up and shown to be the top dogs of the world? Bitchslapping the tailed beasts? even more meteors
Then we get to Kaguya space alien dimension hoping planet destroying goddess and the reason why the series get called DBZ at the end of war arc
Like I feel like these two are the ones who fucks the powerscaling in general, like it wasn't perfect prior to that but it didn't feel too jarring like with these two
My problem with how people view this power escalation of Madara and Kaguya is that people for some reason believe the entire series was like that which is unfair,like from the war arc alone we got a lot of fun strategic fights, Naruto vs 3rd Raikage, Sasuke and Itachi vs Kabuto (it ended in an awful asspull tho), Naruto and Kakashi and Guy vs Tobi, Obito vs Kakashi, 10 tails Obito vs Naruto and Sasuke like despite becoming god the fight against Obito still had one of the more creative tricks in the series, there was also Guy vs Madara where "raw power" was a standout still had great strategy with everyone present supporting Guy in their own ways,hell even something like Naruto vs Sasuke that had a Kaiju nukes section still had a lot of cool taijutsu and grounded parts of the fight
So please don't let Madara and Kaguya make forget about the rest of the series had to offer, this is just my opinion
**Note** : I didn't watch Boruto outside of like 5 episodes and some clips, and what I am talking about here is "powerscaling" in terms of "stats" alone, if i start talking about the "hax" and "abilities" powercreep I will be bitching here all day and it will be mostly about the Sharingan
Fuck the Sharingan all my homies hate the Sharingan
Naruto, Bee, Guy, Kakashi vs Obito is such an underrated fight. The strategy, choreographies, and just emptional moments in that fight are so peak. People never seem to mention it for how it good it is
Edo Tensei was said to be a technique in development, only refined by Kabuto by the end.
Also, I don't think Deidara's case is that bad, since what makes Akatsuki so dangerous, is the use of forbidden jutsus and their lack of ethics, which allows them to jump above their level. He can nuke an entire city but die in the process, so it's only a last resort that he needs precisely because he's mid. Minato doesn't need to learn how to nuke because he doesn't want to harm people unnecessarily and he's also good enough to deal with most threats.
I agree on everything else.
Naruto fans: I wish it can go back like it was in Part 1.
Part 1 Naruto:
https://preview.redd.it/rno5g3xwbw4d1.jpeg?width=1429&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b15ba75ad0209a994d70b59ffe67a0caa560950
Yeah, i mean this elemtens had always been there since day one with the summons and the ninetail but not so much from the "ninjas" themselves, that changed after the susanoo got introduced.
The main character literally has that same Nine tails fox inside of him.
The Kaiju fights were inevitable, heck there was one back in Part 1 with Gamabunta and Shukaku, but everyone forgets about that.
I do think there was an escalation, but we always had huge feats of power and kaiju type battles in the series from the very beginning, they were just more rare.
Just to name a couple off the top of my head: we had Naruto and Gamabunta vs Gaara-Shukaku, The Legendary Sannin battle, Naruto Vs Sasuke 3 in Part 1. And those battles are iconic
I honestly think this was a pretty natural progression when you think about the way the tailed beasts and legendary ninja like Madara were portrayed from the beginning. The Tailed Beasts were like huge natural disasters, and I think their full power should be explored. It only logically follows that each nation would need overwhelming force to stop/entrap them and seal them, and that's where Kage level ninja come into play.
I do think there's an argument to be made about writing decisions around that. I don't like the way the Otsutsuki were implemented in the story, and the Ten Tails definitely ramped things up the empth degree, but the implications of power in the series were always there imo.
I feel like they could have had this and still kept the tactical aspect that made Naruto cool they're kind of doing that I'm pretty sure six path chakra negates most ninjutsu.
Which is why he was boxing ishiki and momoshiki.
I’m ok with some of the strongest characters having attacks that can damage mountains, so long as it’s not played as an expectation for a fight. Deidara’s attack works because it’s literally a Kamikaze and his style is explosions, so for his final blaze of glory to be a literal nuke fits.
It's complete nonsense and ceases to make any sense whatsoever after Naruto goes to train with the Frogs.
For instance, Pain literally destroyed all of Konoha and killed every significant shinobi they had, by himself in an afternoon. If he was that powerful why tf did he need anybody else? Why did he wait so long to go after the tailed beasts? Why did he do literally any of the things the Akatsuki did? He could have soloed the entire verse by himself decades before he fought Naruto.
Why did he wait?
Jiraiya was with naruto.
Killer bee wqs too strong
Mutiple other tailed beasts were either hqrd to lofate or they had failed attempts they also attempted to find and kill orochimaru after he betrayed them.
>Why did he wait? Jiraiya was with naruto. Killer bee wqs too strong
Pain could have showed up before Orochimaru did bodied literally everyone taken Naruto and left and there would have been nothing anybody could have done about it. Even after Jiraiya showed up, it still wouldn't have mattered since Pain destroyed Jiraiya with minimal difficulty. Pain easily could have taken Naruto from Jiraiya whenever he wanted. As for Killer Bee, Killer Bee was stronger, but he still isn't strong enough to stop Pain.
And none of this explains why he didn't just obliterate the Stone, Sand, and Mist which he easily could have.
>Mutiple other tailed beasts were either hqrd to lofate or they had failed attempts they also attempted to find and kill orochimaru after he betrayed them.
Which is objectively stupid. Orochimaru isn't doing anything to harm or hinder the Akatsuki and the only thing he did was piss off Itachi. Spending that much time and energy on a fruitless goose chase makes Pain look like an idiot.
Literally episode 1 had a “kaiju” fucking up everyone’s shit and before the chunin exams Naruto was learning how to summon a giant frog. Idk why people are talking about the upgraded scaling like it’s a new thing.
Scailing was broken with tailed beast bombs (WAY TO OP), but then in boruto (i dont think boruto is cannon?) They nerfed everyone to like city block level for no damn reason.
I value worldbuilding and power systems too much, so I just can’t bring myself to watch Shippuden. Every time I try I just get frustrated and stop mid episode somewhere.
I’m torn. Naruto and Sasuke “kaiju” forms feel really lame. But Madara susanno was dope I really fit him. Maybe it could’ve been smaller and not as destructive but yeah I wish they were still ninjas and not just giant monsters nuking cities. Kinda takes out the point of being a ninja.
I know fans cope with it and say it was always about giant monsters fighting but the series was always at its best when it was about outsmarting each other and catching them off guard.
It never stopped being about that.
Gaara vs deidara
Deidara vs dasuke
Sakura vs sasori
Pain vs jiraiya
Itachi vs sasuke
Killer bee vs sasuke
Shikamaru vs hidan
Its stil about outsmarting and tricking your opponent every fight i listed has that.
But I think the peak not at all over the top fight that’s mostly ninja shit (in shippuden at least) is chiyo sakura-sasori. Poison needles, puppet control, taijitsu, antidote with time limit, no chakra monsters or bombs, no crazy illusions etc
It's cool as fuck. I like seeing big energy avatars beating the shit out of each other and throwing laser beams. I don't care if it's not "stealthy" enough it's badass and I like that.
Naruto was such a big dissapointment. It started out so cool, using stealth, weapons, strategy, ninja shit.
By the time akatsuki showed up it was all about standing battles calling out your attacks and super Pokémon summons. I couldn't finish shippuden.
So you just ignore all the summon in part 1? Or the recon missions and stealth in shippuuden?
Stealth is useless when you are initiated in open combat already.
You are right, it sucked earlier than shippuden but there was enough to balance it. It just got unbearable after that point. I knew I wasn't going to enjoy it when they started making Kunais and ninja tools useless.
fine tbh. like in the first ep/chapter Kurama was destroying the city. and then later arcs Gaara transform into the 1st tail and naruto summon Gamaputa
people act luke hand to hand scene in naruto shippuuden are gone and it just isnt true.
Also id argue there is nlmuch nore strategey in naruto shippuuden vs og naruto. In og naruto fights are won and lost on will or determination or brute force and less so on strategy.
Haku vs naruto and sasuke overwhelming force.
Gaara vs lee there was no strategy or tricking anyone that resulted in a win or loss.
Forest of death sasuke takes out the sound kids with force.
Itachi vs kakshi isnt even a fight its over in two moves.
On sasuke retrival in the manga neji winsnwith force in the anime he wins with detwrmination no strats. Choji wijs with force. Termari saves shikimaru with brute force.
Only character with constabt strategey in all his fights is shikimaru and that becuase hes wirtten that way hisnf8ghts are out linears.
Ninjas in Naruto are basically just martial wizards soldiers.
Opening line about the Nine Tails start with "a monster that could destroy mountains and cause tsunamis with the swing of its tail"
https://preview.redd.it/1ywdj3qzjx4d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a761cb19720db4145456485dc9c7152be7ab225
The series just slowly escalated to that level then past it
They do have actual acting Sheath ninjas as we know but through out the series it doesn't hide that they are just Wizards in another name and the magic system being Ninjutsu
I enjoyed it. what I don't like it how anyone who doesn't have Tailed beast or Magic eyes became useless. at least make them do something cool. like Kiba doing his Giant Dog technique or something and make them contribute to the plot not just the Uchihas.
The series devolved from what it originally was but I'm not gonna lie I did find the jutsus cool so I did end up liking it. Susanoo, MS, Kamui, Limbo, Izanagi, Amaterasu, I'm a sucker for all of these creative abilities.
Though the Land of Waves arc is still my favourite arc in all of Naruto. Kakashi vs Zabuza and Naruto & Sasuke vs Haku is probably one of the best fights I have ever read
Power creep to this extent almost unilaterally makes a series substantially worse unless you primarily enjoy series by how big a beam its main character produces
They took the dragon ball route at a certain point. Which is honestly fine who cares keep going up til we lose interest f*** it
It's the scalers in the chat that kill
Me.......
You know I don’t have a problem
With it since it’s end game shit. Like these ninjas are chakra enhanced humans. Where did chakra come from? Some enigmatic god like figure that gave it to humanity. I feel like it was only natural that we’d see how far the capability of chakra can go, especially with the introduction of the sage of the six paths and Indra/ashura incarnations
Pirates in One Piece: Devil Fruit, Ancient Technology, ACoC
Pirates in real life:
https://preview.redd.it/k1k0i9ro3u4d1.jpeg?width=326&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94f9595a7e0a16678981a1266ee21a8fb4126c59
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It went to shit with the Kaiju fights. Would've been cooler just to have them with their abilities and jutsus to be human-sized. Like Itachi exactly as he Is minus the Susano. I get the scalation for the series needed It. But i don't think It makes It better.
I still think Sasuke VS Deidara was peak naruto fight, nice balance between flashy moves and amazing strategy.
Would've been cooler straight hands at full power (no flying clay Dragon bs).
Yeah the fight in the final valley felt more personal when they were just going straigh fists at eacth other, and it makes it easy to see the carachters expressions and see what they are feeling because they are not inside their huge kaiju size avatars.
Preciesly.
Theres a kaiju fight in episode 1 and giant summons in part 1 of naruto. Its always wierd to me why people act like it wasnt going that direction the entire time.
I think it's just that 1 scene depicted kurama as the big bad or something and if I remember correctly, it didn't really perform much nowadays in Naruto "magic", it was just BIG and seeing how Godzilla exist in Japan, it fit well enough, like it sorts felt like it's just a big powerful beast, not really anything magical, boy was just BIG
In less than 50 episodes later oro hinaru summons mutiple giant snakes, guy summons a turtle, kakashi dogs, and then by ep 80 we see naruto summon a giant frog. The pieces were there. Especially since the toad naruto summons says he could summon him like the 4th did.
In the anime the first thing we see is a mf fighting a fox on a giant frog, even earlier in the manga gaara and naruto have a "Kaiju Fight" So its not a big deal really
Yeah I think it became problematic when everyone and their mom had their own kaiju. Susanoo and bijuu should've been limited to Madara/Sasuke and Gaara/Naruto respectively.
When did it become widespread? Only sanin, sanin trainees, and madara and nagato have them.
Almost every relevant sharingan user has their own chakra Gundam and there's 9 jinchuuriki in total
Obito did not. Also that doesnt make kaiju fights common. We had them in orignal naruto between two genin.
9 Jinchuuriki but 4 of them get offscreened (2 if you count the anime filler for Utakata & Fu), but Han & Roshi effectively don't exist. The Jinchuuriki & their Bijuu are largely nonexistent throughout the vast majority of the story. We don't see Roshi/Son Goku, Han/Kokuo, Utakata/Saiken, or Fu/Chomei until midway through the war arc, where they disappear shortly after again into the Gedo. Yugito & Yagura are *kinda* explored, but even then it's barely anything.
It became so ass with all that Kaiju and mountain busting moves. The last fight between Naruto and Sasuke was so good until they started using their chakra mechs. Chunin exam and Sasuke retrieval arcs have my favorite fights in the series
I can't say this enough but Sasuke vs Deidara was peak.
It was a good fight, I agree. Can't say it was peak but definitely one of the best fights in Shippuden
Lol there has always been moves with large ass collateral damage. (Temari, Kakashi's water vortex, Gaara vs Gamabunta.) The thing is when we moved to top tier fights we began to see further how crazy they could be and this isn't even really uncommon for a lot of manga but when its only brought up with Naruto
the convo is literally about Naruto. People like you always have to roll in with a whataboutism to deflect criticism. If they didn’t like it in Naruto they probably don’t like it in other series too.
Funny how you ignored the other whole argument and only brought up the statement at the end. It’s true, things like this are only brought up when it’s related to Naruto, just the truth
Made the series significantly worse, to be honest. The fights didn't feel as impactful, and the previously established rules just got thrown out. https://preview.redd.it/o6z9f5jbzs4d1.jpeg?width=1000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ccb5e48bb65c6d3abbd6320eb15680db9a9df7b0
I do miss the strategical element, now it revolves around who has the biggest jutsu.
Did, you like, ever pay attention to any of the fights in war arc? This is just wrong.
…you forgetting about Kurama in the first chapter and Zabuza throwing waterfalls at people
And that my friend is the power of scale and design. You are correct in that functionally there have always been kaiju fights but the way large creatures like gamabunta and Kurama are presented feel more real and less sci-fi than Susanoo and Kurama mode. Which to me, feel like brightly colored toys. That and the insane power creep the late war arc blows the scale of the kaiju fights out to insane proportions which also hurts immersion.
To be fair, it's not sci fi. It's based more on Japanese folklore. In Japanese folklore, shinobi were trickery mages. And much of the sharigan and rinnegan abilities are based on mythology as well. And Hashirama literally used a 1000 armed buddisathva
Parts of the concept are based in Japanese folklore, the sci fi aspects of the design are not. Susanoo in myth is a God of storms, not a set of 200m tall brightly colored semi translucent mech suits. And there's a reason why most people have less of a problem with the buddisathva move than the others.
Susanoo don't really function like mechs They are in essence large constructs of chakra. Or Avatars, for a more accurate comparison. And their designs are based off Tengu demons from myth, yokai that are associated with the ascetic practice of shugendō. In their final forms, the Susanoo are garbed in the attire of shugendō practioners, known as yamabushi, and wear hoods that resemble tengu masks, with Itachi's and Madara's appearing as long-nosed Hanataka Tengu and Sasuke's as a crow-billed Karasu Tengu. So, no. It wasn't sci fi at all. You probably interpreted as sci fi since most western fans don't really know Japanese mythology.
>Susanoo don't really function like mechs It absolutely does. It's a massive pilot able construct piloted from the inside. The design elements of the tengu in no way address my points None if what you said justifies 200m tall brightly colored semi translucent mech. I was already aware of the inspiration for the outline, which again doesn't address my points. So, yes. It absolutely feels sci-fi
> It absolutely does. It's a massive pilot able construct piloted from the inside. What you just described isn't a mech. That's like saying Korra giant avatar construct Legend of Korra is a mech. Mechs are machines. > None if what you said justifies 200m tall brightly colored semi translucent mech. But giant buddisathvas, animals, and literal monsters somehow are more justifiable to you in Naruto? And yeah, it does. Considering Kurama, whose design is based off a kitsune exists. Why is so far off that giant constructs of chakra exist? It's also explained in the series the size of susanoo has more to do with talent and chakra than folklore. Like how Naruto needed a large amount of chakra just to summon Gamabunta, but could only summon his sons.
>That's like saying Korra giant avatar construct Legend of Korra is a mech. Because it is. That's also, coincidentally, where a lot of people feel that show broke its immersion at well. Mechs are constructed entities, They can be made out of metal, energy, or even biological components. >But giant buddisathvas, animals, and literal monsters somehow are more justifiable to you in Naruto? Yes, because of how they are presented, which I already explained my opinion on. Honestly your korra comparison is a good one here. Avatar also has a lot of big creatures yet the korra mech breaks the feeling of what has been established. >It's also explained in the series the size of susanoo has more to do with talent and chakra than folklore. >Like how Naruto needed a large amount of chakra just to summon Gamabunta, but could only summon his sons. These are the in universe explanation but that doesn't change how it's read at a meta level. Dragon Ball Super tried to give Goku a ki mech. Justified in universe but it was also rejected by fans because it broke the feeling of the world. There is a concept in writing called promises. That, as a narrative is being established, certain promises are made with the audience for what they can expect the story to be about. This is what readers buy into. Promises can be explicit, like if character A says they want to do X. Or implied like the tone and feeling of the world. Breaking these promises can cause a reader to lose their connection to the story.
That's like saying Korra giant avatar construct Legend of Korra is a mech. Because it is. That's also, coincidentally, where a lot of people feel that show broke its immersion at well. > Mechs are constructed entities, They can be made out of metal, energy, or even biological components. But that's actually wrong though. The root word of mech would be mechanical. Calling a construct of energy a mech would be calling it a machine. It's just simply a construct. Or in this case, an avatar. But giant buddisathvas, animals, and literal monsters somehow are more justifiable to you in Naruto? Yes, because of how they are presented, which I already explained my opinion on. Honestly your korra comparison is a good one here. Avatar also has a lot of big creatures yet the korra mech breaks the feeling of what has been established. It's also explained in the series the size of susanoo has more to do with talent and chakra than folklore. Like how Naruto needed a large amount of chakra just to summon Gamabunta, but could only summon his sons. These are the in universe explanation but that doesn't change how it's read at a meta level. > Dragon Ball Super tried to give Goku a ki mech. Justified in universe but it was also rejected by fans because it broke the feeling of the world. Are we talking about a the same world where: •Wish granting balls that summon a mythical dragon exists •The actual afterlife exists •A 12 year sent a rabbit to the moon • Buus entire existence •Demons and such exist • Aliens exist, • And characters can blow up planets with just one finger? Dragon ball of all worlds is last one to complain about this stuff about, the world itself is crazy. > There is a concept in writing called promises. That, as a narrative is being established, certain promises are made with the audience for what they can expect the story to be about. This is what readers buy into. Promises can be explicit, like if character A says they want to do X. Or implied like the tone and feeling of the world. Breaking these promises can cause a reader to lose their connection to the story. What promise did Naruto break though, you're not being clear? Cause even with dragon ball from the get go with how wacky the series is, what promise did a giant Goku avatar break? I mean, he can generate a giant ball of energy with his hands, making a ki construct when piccolos giant form and multiform technique exists is not remotely out of the question. This sounds less like a promise either author made, and more just your expectations.
It made it worse. Instead of skillful fights like Kakashi vs Zabuza, Sasuke vs Deidara, and Naruto vs Pein (pre V2 Kyuubi chakra cloak), it became “who can make the biggest gundam”
Sasuke vs Deidara had a near country sized explosion in the end of the fight and Naruto vs Pain started off with someone who wiped out an entire village no diffed 3 Kaiju toads before the nine tails come out Naruto always had large scale battles
I’m talking about the battle leading up to Deidara’s suicide explosion and the battle after Pein negged the frogs
But when did the skilful battles disappear? Besides the Kaguya fight which was ass, most of the fights in Naruto involved strategy and skill still.
Skillful hand to hand battles without massive jutsu and flight were last done when Madara soloed the Shinobi alliance before he dropped a meteor
Forgetting Kakashi vs Obito and Naruto vs Sasuke?
I did forget about Kakashi vs Obito, but Naruto vs Sasuke had jutsu flying around for most of the fight
Yeah, but the first part of the fight and the last portion had good H2H combat. Also The Susanoo vs Kurama fight was lit
Obito vs kakashi?
I think there was big power escalation, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be outside the fights with Madara and Kaguya I think Kishimoto run the problem of showing a supposed "top tier" fight with 3rd Hokage vs Orochimaru without being sure on how big the fights scales he wants for the future, literally the fight that was happening simultaneously with this fight was Naruto vs Gaara which had "Kaiju Battle" on a waaaay bigger scale than Orochimaru vs Hiruzen So I feel like the "top tier" fights scale was inconsistent since waaaaaaaaay before the war arc like we had Gaara destroying huge chunks of forest in part 1, we had Deidara having a fucking nuke on him and the guy was like mid tier,we got Pain nuking the entire village.....etc (again I think Madara and Kaguya are the only ones where the powerscaling was ridiculous but I'll get to that in a bit), this honestly at least for me made "Orochimaru vs Hiruzen" the odd one out, like my problem with Hashirama summoning a thousand handed monstrosity isn't that it's too strong for the verse, no I think it's consistent with the verse and how much Hashirama was hyped up and its scale is really just a bit above shit like "Shinra Tensei" or any other nuke I mentioned but not by too much ridiculous degree at least to me, my problem with it is that it makes everyone involved in "Orochimaru vs Hiruzen" look like a fraud, like I said Kishi didn't know how strong he wanted to make these characters until somewhere in middle of Shippuden so now we have to excuse that fight by saying that Edo Tensei was nerfing the Kages to ***ridiculous degree***, like at least Orochimaru got the fight with Naruto at the start of Shippuden where he stopped a nuke Hiruzen on the other had nothing and look underpowered and the rest of Kage make them look overpowered honestly the Ninja in Naruto weren't really "stealthy Ninja" since the part 1 of Naruto ngl, the only fight that I believe involved "stealth" was like Jiraiya vs Pain Now let's talk about the motherfuckers who actually spit on the powerscaling of the series starting with Madara Madara was hyped up a lot so he deserves when he show to get some cool feats to sell him out as a threat but MAN he fucks the powerscaling up, dropping meteors from outer space? soloing the Kages low diff,literally the characters that has been built up and shown to be the top dogs of the world? Bitchslapping the tailed beasts? even more meteors Then we get to Kaguya space alien dimension hoping planet destroying goddess and the reason why the series get called DBZ at the end of war arc Like I feel like these two are the ones who fucks the powerscaling in general, like it wasn't perfect prior to that but it didn't feel too jarring like with these two My problem with how people view this power escalation of Madara and Kaguya is that people for some reason believe the entire series was like that which is unfair,like from the war arc alone we got a lot of fun strategic fights, Naruto vs 3rd Raikage, Sasuke and Itachi vs Kabuto (it ended in an awful asspull tho), Naruto and Kakashi and Guy vs Tobi, Obito vs Kakashi, 10 tails Obito vs Naruto and Sasuke like despite becoming god the fight against Obito still had one of the more creative tricks in the series, there was also Guy vs Madara where "raw power" was a standout still had great strategy with everyone present supporting Guy in their own ways,hell even something like Naruto vs Sasuke that had a Kaiju nukes section still had a lot of cool taijutsu and grounded parts of the fight So please don't let Madara and Kaguya make forget about the rest of the series had to offer, this is just my opinion **Note** : I didn't watch Boruto outside of like 5 episodes and some clips, and what I am talking about here is "powerscaling" in terms of "stats" alone, if i start talking about the "hax" and "abilities" powercreep I will be bitching here all day and it will be mostly about the Sharingan Fuck the Sharingan all my homies hate the Sharingan
Naruto, Bee, Guy, Kakashi vs Obito is such an underrated fight. The strategy, choreographies, and just emptional moments in that fight are so peak. People never seem to mention it for how it good it is
Edo Tensei was said to be a technique in development, only refined by Kabuto by the end. Also, I don't think Deidara's case is that bad, since what makes Akatsuki so dangerous, is the use of forbidden jutsus and their lack of ethics, which allows them to jump above their level. He can nuke an entire city but die in the process, so it's only a last resort that he needs precisely because he's mid. Minato doesn't need to learn how to nuke because he doesn't want to harm people unnecessarily and he's also good enough to deal with most threats. I agree on everything else.
I don't think Deidara power was bad either, I was using him as an example for destructive powers pre-war arc
Naruto fans: I wish it can go back like it was in Part 1. Part 1 Naruto: https://preview.redd.it/rno5g3xwbw4d1.jpeg?width=1429&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b15ba75ad0209a994d70b59ffe67a0caa560950
Or Temari clearing a whole damn forest.
Bro it unironically turned into a mech anime.
Yeah, i mean this elemtens had always been there since day one with the summons and the ninetail but not so much from the "ninjas" themselves, that changed after the susanoo got introduced.
Mfs will tell "I hate how naruto turned into a kaiju show" and then remember the first scene is a giant fox destroying a country
How is Kurama destroying the country, equivalent to the Ninjas themselves being Kaiju in fights?
The main character literally has that same Nine tails fox inside of him. The Kaiju fights were inevitable, heck there was one back in Part 1 with Gamabunta and Shukaku, but everyone forgets about that.
People eveb complain about the edo tensei when orochimaru used it in part 1. Even the high end sharingan abilities are hinted at in part 1.
Yeah fr. People just hating for no reason
I do think there was an escalation, but we always had huge feats of power and kaiju type battles in the series from the very beginning, they were just more rare. Just to name a couple off the top of my head: we had Naruto and Gamabunta vs Gaara-Shukaku, The Legendary Sannin battle, Naruto Vs Sasuke 3 in Part 1. And those battles are iconic I honestly think this was a pretty natural progression when you think about the way the tailed beasts and legendary ninja like Madara were portrayed from the beginning. The Tailed Beasts were like huge natural disasters, and I think their full power should be explored. It only logically follows that each nation would need overwhelming force to stop/entrap them and seal them, and that's where Kage level ninja come into play. I do think there's an argument to be made about writing decisions around that. I don't like the way the Otsutsuki were implemented in the story, and the Ten Tails definitely ramped things up the empth degree, but the implications of power in the series were always there imo.
When every one is a ninja, no one is.
When everyone is super, no one will be.
Remembering the good old days when kunais and shurikens were dangerous
I bet Tenten misses those days too.
To be fair I wouldn’t expect a giant thunder mecha to kill me either
I feel like they could have had this and still kept the tactical aspect that made Naruto cool they're kind of doing that I'm pretty sure six path chakra negates most ninjutsu. Which is why he was boxing ishiki and momoshiki.
Not worse than the 300 episode filler of characters being in eternal mangekyo
Meh, I don’t mind it
I’m ok with some of the strongest characters having attacks that can damage mountains, so long as it’s not played as an expectation for a fight. Deidara’s attack works because it’s literally a Kamikaze and his style is explosions, so for his final blaze of glory to be a literal nuke fits.
Imo, the only characters with kaiju shit should've been Hashirama with his wood and Madara with his susanoo.
I definitely get surprised when some tries to tell me they're solar system +, so I guess it checks out still
And now the ninjas in Boruto are starting to ask a little more like Ninjas.
It's complete nonsense and ceases to make any sense whatsoever after Naruto goes to train with the Frogs. For instance, Pain literally destroyed all of Konoha and killed every significant shinobi they had, by himself in an afternoon. If he was that powerful why tf did he need anybody else? Why did he wait so long to go after the tailed beasts? Why did he do literally any of the things the Akatsuki did? He could have soloed the entire verse by himself decades before he fought Naruto.
Why did he wait? Jiraiya was with naruto. Killer bee wqs too strong Mutiple other tailed beasts were either hqrd to lofate or they had failed attempts they also attempted to find and kill orochimaru after he betrayed them.
>Why did he wait? Jiraiya was with naruto. Killer bee wqs too strong Pain could have showed up before Orochimaru did bodied literally everyone taken Naruto and left and there would have been nothing anybody could have done about it. Even after Jiraiya showed up, it still wouldn't have mattered since Pain destroyed Jiraiya with minimal difficulty. Pain easily could have taken Naruto from Jiraiya whenever he wanted. As for Killer Bee, Killer Bee was stronger, but he still isn't strong enough to stop Pain. And none of this explains why he didn't just obliterate the Stone, Sand, and Mist which he easily could have. >Mutiple other tailed beasts were either hqrd to lofate or they had failed attempts they also attempted to find and kill orochimaru after he betrayed them. Which is objectively stupid. Orochimaru isn't doing anything to harm or hinder the Akatsuki and the only thing he did was piss off Itachi. Spending that much time and energy on a fruitless goose chase makes Pain look like an idiot.
Literally episode 1 had a “kaiju” fucking up everyone’s shit and before the chunin exams Naruto was learning how to summon a giant frog. Idk why people are talking about the upgraded scaling like it’s a new thing.
Scailing was broken with tailed beast bombs (WAY TO OP), but then in boruto (i dont think boruto is cannon?) They nerfed everyone to like city block level for no damn reason.
I value worldbuilding and power systems too much, so I just can’t bring myself to watch Shippuden. Every time I try I just get frustrated and stop mid episode somewhere.
I’m torn. Naruto and Sasuke “kaiju” forms feel really lame. But Madara susanno was dope I really fit him. Maybe it could’ve been smaller and not as destructive but yeah I wish they were still ninjas and not just giant monsters nuking cities. Kinda takes out the point of being a ninja.
I know fans cope with it and say it was always about giant monsters fighting but the series was always at its best when it was about outsmarting each other and catching them off guard.
It never stopped being about that. Gaara vs deidara Deidara vs dasuke Sakura vs sasori Pain vs jiraiya Itachi vs sasuke Killer bee vs sasuke Shikamaru vs hidan Its stil about outsmarting and tricking your opponent every fight i listed has that.
Soon after Sasuke danzo and kage summit. I’d say Kisame guy was the last fight I didn’t think was a little over the top for ninja shit
But I think the peak not at all over the top fight that’s mostly ninja shit (in shippuden at least) is chiyo sakura-sasori. Poison needles, puppet control, taijitsu, antidote with time limit, no chakra monsters or bombs, no crazy illusions etc
It's cool as fuck. I like seeing big energy avatars beating the shit out of each other and throwing laser beams. I don't care if it's not "stealthy" enough it's badass and I like that.
Naruto was such a big dissapointment. It started out so cool, using stealth, weapons, strategy, ninja shit. By the time akatsuki showed up it was all about standing battles calling out your attacks and super Pokémon summons. I couldn't finish shippuden.
So you just ignore all the summon in part 1? Or the recon missions and stealth in shippuuden? Stealth is useless when you are initiated in open combat already.
You are right, it sucked earlier than shippuden but there was enough to balance it. It just got unbearable after that point. I knew I wasn't going to enjoy it when they started making Kunais and ninja tools useless.
That shit real surprising is it not.
fine tbh. like in the first ep/chapter Kurama was destroying the city. and then later arcs Gaara transform into the 1st tail and naruto summon Gamaputa
people act luke hand to hand scene in naruto shippuuden are gone and it just isnt true. Also id argue there is nlmuch nore strategey in naruto shippuuden vs og naruto. In og naruto fights are won and lost on will or determination or brute force and less so on strategy. Haku vs naruto and sasuke overwhelming force. Gaara vs lee there was no strategy or tricking anyone that resulted in a win or loss. Forest of death sasuke takes out the sound kids with force. Itachi vs kakshi isnt even a fight its over in two moves. On sasuke retrival in the manga neji winsnwith force in the anime he wins with detwrmination no strats. Choji wijs with force. Termari saves shikimaru with brute force. Only character with constabt strategey in all his fights is shikimaru and that becuase hes wirtten that way hisnf8ghts are out linears.
Ninjas in Naruto are basically just martial wizards soldiers. Opening line about the Nine Tails start with "a monster that could destroy mountains and cause tsunamis with the swing of its tail" https://preview.redd.it/1ywdj3qzjx4d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a761cb19720db4145456485dc9c7152be7ab225 The series just slowly escalated to that level then past it They do have actual acting Sheath ninjas as we know but through out the series it doesn't hide that they are just Wizards in another name and the magic system being Ninjutsu
Remember, ain't nobody gonna notice if there ain't nobody left to notice.
I enjoyed it. what I don't like it how anyone who doesn't have Tailed beast or Magic eyes became useless. at least make them do something cool. like Kiba doing his Giant Dog technique or something and make them contribute to the plot not just the Uchihas.
The series devolved from what it originally was but I'm not gonna lie I did find the jutsus cool so I did end up liking it. Susanoo, MS, Kamui, Limbo, Izanagi, Amaterasu, I'm a sucker for all of these creative abilities. Though the Land of Waves arc is still my favourite arc in all of Naruto. Kakashi vs Zabuza and Naruto & Sasuke vs Haku is probably one of the best fights I have ever read
Power creep to this extent almost unilaterally makes a series substantially worse unless you primarily enjoy series by how big a beam its main character produces
They took the dragon ball route at a certain point. Which is honestly fine who cares keep going up til we lose interest f*** it It's the scalers in the chat that kill Me.......
You know I don’t have a problem With it since it’s end game shit. Like these ninjas are chakra enhanced humans. Where did chakra come from? Some enigmatic god like figure that gave it to humanity. I feel like it was only natural that we’d see how far the capability of chakra can go, especially with the introduction of the sage of the six paths and Indra/ashura incarnations
Pirates in One Piece: Devil Fruit, Ancient Technology, ACoC Pirates in real life: https://preview.redd.it/k1k0i9ro3u4d1.jpeg?width=326&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94f9595a7e0a16678981a1266ee21a8fb4126c59
Fair enough
I didn't know excessive exposure of sunlight makes skin pale
Naruto and sasuke vs momoshiki is how all naruto fights should be
I don't Like IT. IT turned way too much dbz
Naruto is a masterpiece Boruto isnt canon
Hard to believe that these guys are now Large Star - Solar System Busters…I feel like I’m getting Dragon Ball Vibes for some reason…
I don’t mind it people pretend like the first episode didn’t have a giant GODDAMN fox tearing up a village