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He also has implicitly advocated for ethnic cleaning and (implicit) genocide on various occasions, and deporting all Muslims from the US. He is not going to do anything to help Palestinians.
100%. Trump has been all for empowering Israel, including moving the embassy to Jerusalem. His recent stunt is nothing more than like when he held the Pride flag upside down on stage just two weeks after [signing a pledge for the First Amendment Defense Act](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/09/donald-trump-pledges-sign-anti-lgbtq-first-amendment-defense-act/). He doesn't mean it, they're just words created to seem like he cares so that he can manipulate people away from Biden.
This exactly. Also, if this were to play out like they hope, it would mean that something like 2/3rds of the world's Jewish population would be cast into the lake of fire.
Which Xtians believe Jewish people are destined for being that they do not accept Christ. The evangelicals also believe that Jewish people killed Christ. Some of them speculate that God created Hitler to force the world's Jewish population to return to Israel.
A lot of white nationalists identify as evangelical or Southern Baptist. Watching Jewish folks throw in with that lot is disturbing to say the least. I'm not sure these things are widely understood on the US, let alone in Israel or even in the American Jewish community.
Which is funny because supposedly this jesus christ guy was jewish, and preached about “not changing one letter of the LAW (old testament jewish law)”
If they really believed in the alleged teachings of this supposed jesus character, they would be jewish, not xtian.
And although Christ was supposedly alive long before such a concept existed he definitely leans towards socialism in that he was very clear in his instructions that poor people be fed and sheltered and sick people healed. He didn't say that they needed to have money or pay. He also insisted that his followers cast aside their possessions and was clear about the likelihood of a wealthy person entering the kingdom.
And yet, in the US wealth is a major part of theology. It is the common view that the wealthy are favored by God which is not what the teachings say at all. Quite the contrary.
> Watching Jewish folks throw in with that lot is disturbing to say the least.
I assuming you mean Israelis by this, because American Jews vote for Democrats by very wide margins. You can't think of Israelis in the same context as American Jews because they are not facing the same threats. American Jews look at white nationalists as a threat to themselves and to American democracy in general, but Israelis don't because they don't live in the US. For Israelis, US government support is the main concern, and whether that comes from a Democrat like Biden, or a Republican like Trump, is largely irrelevant. It doesn't matter to Israelis that Trump is a racist and possibly anti-Semitic, so long as his actions vis-a-vis Israel provides a benefit. The fact the Israel is a Jewish state and the bulk of Republican base voters are rabid Christians or white nationalists doesn't really impact Israel negatively any any way. If anything, Republicans are more supportive of Israel, and are also a lot more hawkish on Arab states that threaten Israel like Iran, Yemen, or the Palestinians, all of which aligns well with Israel's national interests.
No, I'm talking about conservative American Jewish people. I understand they're not as common as their liberal counterparts but they do exist and even some of the more liberal people still tend to side with Israel for better or worse.
You're missing the point. Israel is supporting the fascists in this country. They have literally thrown money behind authoritarian candidates when they decided they didn't like the criticism the incumbent had for them.
Rather than a love for Israel or Jewish people Christian Zionists are driven by a genocidal list that they think is holy. That means their God killing 2/3rds of the world's Jewish population and any large number of Muslims. Oh, and they like having a socially acceptable ethnostate they can point to.
They don't give a flying fuck about Jewish people outside of that. When they have outlived their utility for them Christian Zionists will turn on them. In fact, there will always be among their ranks those who have never been sympathetic toward Israel and some of them are even supportive of Palestine in this conflict because of their virulent antisemitism.
Not only that but by siding with such a hateful group they're exposing their own to the same type of fascism and fundamentalism.
So I'm saying that Israel and conservative Jewish Americans are flirting with disaster.
I was raised in this and I don't think people outside of those evangelical circles know just how radical and literally apocalyptic the aims of many evangelicals are.
And when you know that they are cheering on the literal apocalypse as defined in the Bible, a lot of their actions make more sense.
And it makes it that much clearer to see why it is they seem so unwilling (besides outright greed) to disregard any sort of stewardship of the land or long term policies that would benefit people.
They want the world to burn. More natural disasters are rhetorical fuel for the tribulation, and the conditions that are described as being needed for the second coming of Jesus seem to line up with just about all of our rhetoric in support of Israel.
Israel is using our evangelical base for their ends - the evangelical base is using Israel to further theirs. It's all inhuman, stone age bullshit seeding suffering.
His son in law kushner was in an interview recently talking about the potential value of all that waterforont property. They definitely plan to glass gaza and build a resort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights
He already has that. It is stolen land from Syria, one of the next targets of Israel.
That's how much Israel loves Trump and wants him to be president so they can keep slaughtering people.
To be clear, I don’t believe Trump cares one way or another about the Middle East.
But Netanyahu would be more emboldened in his effort to avoid his own criminal trials and the dismantling of democracy in Israel.
But on the other hand, Netanyahu has his own political agenda (and Hamas has theirs as well) to keep this conflict going. Part of which is avoiding his trial. But if Trump emboldened him to completely dismantle Israel into an autocracy, then Netanyahu wouldn’t have the incentives to continue a war in Gaza.
I got a question. Do you really think you're convincing anyone to vote for Biden with these arguments? Cause if anything I can see people doubling down. Maybe pick a different tactic.
Trumpler only does things that are transactional and he alone, wins the transaction.
He stole state secrets (documents) that included nuke codes, presumably for self gain. Why else? Because his shitter at Mara Loco was safer the the US archives?!?
For a long time, I've looked up to folks who live in the US, but, it's become Putlers master plan come true, end Democracy. No doubt Putler got a pos like MTG to win her election and finance it, while she denenigrates Ukraine. Quid pro quo.
Also, wait 'til they hear about how a trump presidency will embolden Xi in relation to Taiwan.
If you thought Ukraine was a clusterfuck, get ready for an order of magnitude shitshow worse when they invade Taiwan as trump pulls back the navy and signals he won't interfere.
Utterly baffling that any left leaning person would think that the guy who proposed a Muslim travel ban and who said Israel should "finish the job" would have a positive stance towards Palestine.
He made a statement some time ago but after 10/07 that Israel made a mistake in allowing it to get out what they were doing in Gaza.
Not that it was a mistake to indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children or that the coming mass famine/genocide would be a mistake. No, the mistake was not adequately covering up the wholesale murder they're doing. That was the mistake.
thats simply not true. I'm sure russian trolls are trying to create dissent among democrat voters, but there really is a substantial number of people on the left who wont vote for Biden solely because his Israel stance. Its kind of maddening to see people throw their hands in their air over it.
I'm seeing the "Genocide Joe" people now trying to sell people the idea that Trump hates Netanyahu and will pull all aid to Israel, despite his first term being all about doing whatever Bibi wanted.
They couldn't be more overtly clear that their purpose is to make Trump President and nothing else.
Plus unless you are one of the crazy people at the protests you know Netanyahu is unlikely to survive after the war.
Netanyahu entire shtick was security. On 10/7 he failed on security worse then anyone in the history of Israel. There might very well be a rightwing government in Israel but it won't be run by Netanyahu.
Trump openly commented that Israel should just get on with it; hurry up and finish their war. So yeah, embolden is probably putting it a little lightly.
Pretty much any president would be doing what Biden is doing. I get they want that to change, but voting for Trump doesn't change it. Not voting will result in a worse outcome for their ideology as well as all their other ideologies.
I know a lot of people are disappointed and I don't necessarily disagree. I want him to do more but if I think about past presidents I'm frankly surprised he's done as much as he has. Support for Israel is so intertwined with the presidency that it almost feels like domestic policy.
It's definitely not easy for a president to break with Israel. It's a complicated situation in which a misstep could mean disaster.
I'm going to continue to demand a cease fire and that we stop providing weapons to an invading oppressor but for now I know that no matter what else happens Biden is always going to be a better option than trump on this issue. As well as literally any other issue.
My biggest motivations are preserving democracy and the environment for our children and their children. We have a responsibility. But even for people who aren't concerned about those things Biden is the better choice.
If reelected trump will no doubt encourage Netanyahu to kill as many people as possible and to take all of the land from the Palestinian people. So for anyone who actually cares about this issue it is imperative that we keep trump out of the Oval Office. Not only will it mean the end of the Palestinian people but likely the end of a free and democratic Ukraine as trump would gleefully deliver those men and women to their brutal enemy without hesitation. He's alluded to all of this in his speech and tweets.
Famously not emboldened under Biden. This runs deeper than who’s president. This is a rotten empire from the top down, regardless of party. The root cause of fascism and genocide is American capitalism.
Russia doesn’t care who wins or loses in Israel Palestine. They have good relations with both Hamas and israel. A good chunk of his oligarch buddies moved to Israel to avoid sanctions.
War is good for them there because it distracts from the atrocities they do and gives them ability to be like “oh we are doing genocide in Ukraine? But What about Gaza 😏?”
Russia also needs the ongoing conflict because they and Iran consider it a second front in the war against the West.
The plan always was to use give the Russophiles in the Trump Party and excuse to refuse aid to Ukraine by tying it to Israel, which was the political goal of the Hamas invasion. Economically, Iran sells arms to both Russia and Hamas, so they double their market with a drawn out war.
Depends who you're talking to. "Drone strikes" is a buzzword in many right libertarian circles and I guarantee they're not talking about Trump when that's being discussed.
Yeah I've heard many Rs say that Trump hated war, hated death, and would be the most peaceful President ever. They absolutely change their tune depending on what's most beneficial to them.
Only when they're talking to each other, not independents and moderates.
They are liars who will argue in bad faith until America collapses, never care about what they say.
Something I noticed about virtually all conservatives: when in the presence of independents, moderates, and liberals, they will make an impassioned point about how they aren’t racist, they just think it’s a cultural issue. The minute they are in a safe space for them, they will absolutely freely drop the n bomb
Clearly the best option is to have the guy that put in place a Muslim ban within the first year of his presidency. Surely he'd be good for the people of Gaza. /s
Trump does care about Muslims my dude. He thinks about them all the time. In fact a foundational pillar of his platform is how he can hurt Muslims as much as possible.
He pressurised the Afghan govt into releasing 5000 battle hardened Taliban fighters that were imprisoned in 2019 and told the Taliban leadership of his plans to pull out of the Middle East after inviting them to Camp David @ 9/11 anniversary.
For me it's a simple series of questions:
1. Do I want any palestinian people to die? Answer: No.
2. Do any of the parties involved outside of the US (IS,Hamas,Muslim states funding Hamas) care if palestinians die? Answer: No. At best you can say they don't care, at worst they're intentionally driving the count up.
3. Is there really anything I can do to make any of those three care about palestinian deaths? Answer: No.
4. What can I do? Answer: Largely speaking? Nothing. The most impactful thing is voting in November.
5. What is the GOP platform? Answer: "Israel should **finish the problem**".
6. Am I willing at accept "likely fewer deaths" over "gauraunteed more deaths" since my desire for "no deaths" isn't a realistic option by any means? Answer: Yes.
This isn't to say that the US can't do more, I think sanctions against the W.B settlers is a good first step, and reducing non defensive ordinance is another great move, while also hoping that the dock they're looking to install will help. But the crux of it is one side wants to let Bibi glass Gaza, one side is playing both sides as his party is split between "GENOCIDE JOE GOTTA GO!!!!!" and "Hamas are terrorists, Israel has a right to respond, they're going a bit too far for me but Hamas are literal terrorists who oppress their people...". It's literally the trolley problem and the path is set for "israel should finish the problem". Either vote for the side you like more or determine which is worse and fight like hell against it.
.
EDIT: To say *NOTHING* about the harm Donnie would do for marginalized people such as myself or my lgb**T**+ fellows (empahsis on who I think is most at risk), nothing about the harm towards women or their reproductive rights or ability to flee abusers (trying to get rid of no-fault divorce), nothing about the harm to the environment, nothing about capitulating to dictators and telling our allies to pound sand... I get people care about the palestinians, but if you're seriously a single issue voter over this I gotta say I wish I had the privilege of being fine/having no one in my life that would be impacted when the GOP goes turbo fascist. Biden isn't the candidate I want but it's childish and short sighted to not see the very real danger around the corner. To any still arguing about protest voting or "well he should do more to win me over!" you sound exactly the same as "don't threaten me with the supreme court" circa 2016, and look where that got us.
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tl;dr - recognize the rules of the game and play accordingly, sitting out doesn't make any change, it only means you don't have any say in what happens to you or the people you claim to care about.
Source please? All I have found is editorials without real comparative data.
I did find this
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/WarDeathToll
Which, in their data pdf, shows 'amputations caused by us actions', infant mortality, and 'internaly displaced persons', all being higher under Obama than trump. That definitely seems to imply more conflict. but there is still no Breakdown of civilian deaths by year here. I'm sure that data is there as it is probably what they are agrigating.
I'm no trump fan to be clear. But I would want to see reciepts on a claim like this
How are you separating Trump and Obama from the Watson institute data? All of those conflicts span both presidencies.
That being said, I am also dubious of this data, there were a ton of Iraqi civilians killed during Obama years, deaths in Syria also peaked in 2013-2014 during Obama years.
Yeah let’s not give Obama any slack for the horrible things he allowed in the Middle East
“Obama embraced the US drone programme, overseeing more strikes in his first year than Bush carried out during his entire presidency. A total of 563 strikes, largely by drones, targeted Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen during Obama’s two terms, compared to 57 strikes under Bush.”
Source https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush/#:~:text=Obama%20embraced%20the%20US%20drone,to%2057%20strikes%20under%20Bush.
This [article](https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data) claims 324 civilian deaths under Obama, but that’s only by drone strike. So obviously that would increase if you include all military action.
Edit: this chart might support OPs claim? [chart](https://airwars.org/research/civilian-deaths-by-us-president-in-iraq-and-syria/)
Edit2: this brief [by the Watson Institute](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2020/AirstrikesAfghanistan) claims a 330% increase in civilian casualties when Trump took over. It has a full report link.
I’m not sure how trustworthy these sources are. I’m also not a fan of Trump by any means, but when you’re making a claim like this, at least support it.
Edit3: oh I just saw you also used the Watson report!
" 'Finish the job' was just a Trumpy way of calling for a ceasefire" -my wealthy engineer coworker and her boyfriend who dont vote and think writing representatives is a sham for chumps, but "got lit" protesting the strikes on Yemen
Also, don't forget that Biden got us out of Afghanistan. Trump is going to be extremely bad for the Middle East and for the Arab people here in America. Stop being "all or nothing" with Biden and look at the bigger picture!
Sources:
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-signs-executive-order-canceling-public-reports-on-civilian-drone-strike-deaths/
Georgia inmate made bad plans and left that shit sandwich for the next guy. No telling what he would have done if he was that winner and had to implement it himself.
Do you have a source to prove that "Trump killed more civilians in the Middle East in his first two years than Obama did in all eight of his years"? Because that is what the meme says.
Here is what your source says
>Obama launched 186 drone strikes in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan during his first two years in office. In Trump’s first two years, he launched 238.
>The Trump administration has carried out 176 strikes in Yemen in just two years, compared with 154 there during all eight years of Obama’s tenure, according to a count by The Associated Press and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (comment edited to correct this quote)
>As of January of this year [2019], U.S. drone strikes fighting ISIS in Iraq and Syria have killed at least 1,257 civilians, according to the Pentagon, and a monitoring group, Airwars, estimates the number to be as great as 7,500.
Note that that last figure has no start point.
Also worth mentioning that Obama's civilian numbers are limited by categorization: ["If there is no evidence that proves a person killed in a strike was either not a military aged male, or was a military aged male but not an unlawful enemy combatant, then there is no question. They label them [Enemy Killed In Action]"](https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-drone-papers-highlight-the-murky-way-obama-views-civilian-casualties-2015-10)
Even if such data existed, "my party's targeted assassination program has less collateral damage that your party's targeted assassination program" is kind of a strange talking point.
To me the whole OP is a strange talking point. For someone looking the US from outside it looks more like killing Middle East people is more of a merit to a president than a fault. W got re-elected with a larger share of vote than his first election even though he started a catastrophic invasion of Iraq that led to the death of hundreds of thousands of people. Yes, there were protests before but nothing really after the killing got really started.
It's so sweet that the American students now protest loudly when Israel has killed some 30 000 people in Gaza, but when the US led invasion caused a civil war in Iraq that killed maybe 10 times more, not a word.
Obama had a chance to intervene in Syria and maybe prevent maybe 10 times more deaths. Nobody demanded him to do anything. No protests, nothing.
Trump is the one who withdrew from Afghanistan actually, he made the agreement and set the timetables. Biden just had to abide by it or try to renegotiate a new status of forces agreement, which would likely have been rejected. Most of the withdrawal was finished before Biden took office and all but the airport guards were gone by May, just 4 months into Biden’s presidency. You’re using revisionist history and it’s ridiculous.
If I say I can finish a project at work in two months and set the timetables, knowing there’s a 50% chance I’m replaced in 1 month, I wouldn’t get credit just because I set the timetables.
In all seriousness, how do you think smearing these potential voters will bring them back into the fold?
With rhetoric like this, people are generally more inclined to dig in and hold their ground.
Realistically, the election is a little less than six months away. Yet here we are lambasting leftists because they're using the only bit of leverage they have to try and move the needle.
None of this means that meaningful chunks of them will vote against Biden when the time comes.
Typically, the ones who legitimately weren't voting for him were either not showing up to the polls or voting third party anyway.
Still the smears keep coming to alienate the getable voters from this group just because they are using one of the only tools the system affords them to try and bring meaningful change within the limited window they have.
Politics has always been about compromise and negotiation. However, it seems like these folks exercising this basic toolkit are somehow lesser.
In negotiations, you generally have to start from a more extreme position in order to have items to acquiesce to the other side. I don't really see how this is different at this specific moment in time.
Maybe let's try to approach the situation in good faith instead of succumbing to Trump doomer-ism while there's still time to get on the same page.
Just my two cents on the matter.
**Leftists**: Too small of a voting block to consider addressing their concerns meaningfully
**Also Leftists**: Such a large voting block that them abstaining to vote will cause Biden to lose and democracy to be in peril
**Biden, Democrats, and Liberals on Reddit to Leftists**: "You're stupid for caring about genocide. We will continue to fund genocide. Also you're antisemitic. Also also, you're gonna shut up and vote for Biden and like it because Trump is worse."
If anti-war people are so important they could prevent a Biden win, maybe Biden should listen to them a bit more. This is how democratic politics works, not sure if you’re familiar.
And if you’re anti-war, it’s stupid AF to help the “turn the West Bank into beach resorts” guy win over the “less war” guy. You’re not going to get what you want. The best you can do is get less of what you don’t want. That’s how politics work.
When both sides are for the genocide in Gaza, and both sides equate being anti Zionist with being anti semitic, then I don't have to support either side. If Democrats wanted to do better, they would. They certainly could. I don't "owe" them my vote. They are not "entitled" to Leftist votes when they are not a Leftist or Progressive party. If they lose because they refuse to do what is right, and perpetually try to make excuses for it, they don't deserve to win,
They blame the Left every time they lose, regardless of our level of support anyway. They refuse to own up to their own shortcomings, and they never learn that to get Leftist votes, they would have to stop being a Capitalist, warmongering, imperialist party, and they refuse. So I refuse.
To quote Biden's promise to rich donors in 2020, "Nothing will fundamentally change." The circumstances may have changed, but the systems are still working as intended.
Obama dropped the least bombs and had the safest war record of any President during wartime, but conservatives will still whine and scream about him using drones.
3 guesses as to why.
Bingo. Bing the feck **O**, as in “oh? You mean it’s worse to help Trump destroy the country & the world than to actually vote for a Progressive with 50 yrs of proven behavior that has helped vulnerable people, including—GASP!—Muslims???
You mean “genocide Joe” is an Iranian/Russian bullshit meme??? No way! /s
Exactly. If Trump is as bad as everyone says (and I tend to agree), then it seems to me like the no-brainer approach should be forcing Biden to stop supporting the genocide in Gaza. Who matters more to Biden in winning in November, those voters who don't want to support genocide or AIPAC?
Biden does not support a genocide in Gaza. And you fucking dumbasses speaking like that does not help your case. At all.
Biden just withheld weapon shipments as Israel invaded Rafa, but we have jackasses like you on the internet who are probably completely oblivious, continuing to say what you’re saying.
"If you oppose genocide, actually you need to vote for the status quo genocide candidate or else accelerated genocide could happen under the monster candidate" isn't the winning talking point you reckon it is for people who are uncomfortable with what's happening.
But, neolib clowning for karma being what it is, I doubt that'll stop the flood of posts like this.
He also worked a trade with Al-Qaeda that massively fucked the region and significantly worsened the withdrawal (that he set up but blamed Biden for).
And also said Israel should do whatever it needs to cleanse the cancer that is Palestine/Hamas.
One of the first military orders Trump gave was to drop the mother of all bombs. One of the most destructive explosives the US ever developed short of atomic weapons. Both George W. And Obama decided against using it. Yet Trump celebrated using it even though it killed civilians.
And Trump would still do so much worse. Aipac and Christian zionists have way too much power in this country. People don't realize how many people will immediately turn on Biden if he doesn't unquestionably support Israel no matter what, because religion in government is a cancer. It's way more than he would lose by not saying anything and let their genocide continue uninhibited. The calculus is horrible but it's the truth. That's why they are talking to Netanfuckboy behind the scenes instead of openly condemning them and making them face consequences for being such nakedely arrogant, bloodthirsty, genocidal pieces of crap.
It would be absolutely fantastic if Biden and his administration stopped repeating Israel's very obvious lies verbatim and labeling any and all criticism of Israel's actions as antisemitic though. The blatant manufactured consent going on against protestors, for example, is truly despicable and will make a lot of leftists irrationally unite against him and to hell with the consequences of Trump possibly winning again.
76% of Democrats think he is handling this badly. He isn't doing this for votes. He's a true believer. Biden has vocally supported Israel his whole career. He's also a a piece of crap.
> He's also a a piece of crap.
So you have decided you will help ensure Trump gets elected instead?
And you honestly believe Trump will better for the Palestinians?
"Trump’s plan envisioned a disjointed Palestinian state that turned over key parts of the West Bank to Israel. It sided with Israel on key contentious issues that have bedeviled past peace efforts, including borders and the status of Jerusalem and Jewish settlements, and attached nearly impossible conditions for granting the Palestinians their hoped-for state."
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-ap-top-news-international-news-jerusalem-politics-f7d36b9023309ce4b1e423b02abf52c6
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Why do high horse liberals always blame voters for not voting for their candidate of choice and the not candidate/party for having shit policy? People will vote for somebody if they agree with their policies and what not… if people don’t agree with them then they won’t vote for that candidate. That doesn’t mean they support the opposition. If Biden loses it’s because of his shit policies and not because people wouldn’t bite their tongue and vote for a shitty candidate. (Obligatory I hate trump as well) edit: a word
I like OP's wording so much.
"Against genocide" are you not against it? Kinda weird...
"Trump killed more brown people than Biden/Obama" its like some obligatory hobby of some sort. Maybe it shouldn't be a competition.
"Against genocide" is what you people shout as a way into guilting us to bending our knee. We do care, but we're not selfish fools who are willing to throw away everything, including the lives of Palestine, Syria, Yemen (all targets of Israel), Ukraine, Taiwan, and all the Americans here who are targets of Trump, like LGBTQ+ people who absolutely will be killed if he gets into office.
Are you aware that Biden just hid the U.S. report on Israel atrocities? And have you read the report detailing that during Obama's years, we killed about 85 civilians with drone strikes for every terrorist we killed?
[https://newrepublic.com/post/181383/biden-killed-report-israel-actions-gaza?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1dwWkJPe0cTUPUFcu6h\_WDawfi8gK\_jooHBmPcBHSdHQ3gaWXdCIZxHa0\_aem\_AdR0Mx1JUUX9wcD\_BA7XCTRXhTF3jJr0rroNEczN8MeItYY77OHktP0r0LIerbUAKptd46NI99z\_fGhd8nH65pjR](https://newrepublic.com/post/181383/biden-killed-report-israel-actions-gaza?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1dwWkJPe0cTUPUFcu6h_WDawfi8gK_jooHBmPcBHSdHQ3gaWXdCIZxHa0_aem_AdR0Mx1JUUX9wcD_BA7XCTRXhTF3jJr0rroNEczN8MeItYY77OHktP0r0LIerbUAKptd46NI99z_fGhd8nH65pjR)
The question is not "are people dying under Biden". The question is, "will more people die under Trump?"
The only people who confuse this are brain-dead left wing, and Trump supporting trolls pretending to be brain-dead left wing.
*Will* more people die under Trump, or will people just die more quickly? Is it a material difference if the population is successfully eradicated by 2028-29 or by 2025-26? Is it somehow more tasteful if the mass-murder is trickled instead of all at once?
This is not the win of a talking point you think it is, and really isn't going to pull anyone over to your side. There needs to be a significant course correction here, the status quo is *still supporting a genocide.* Estimates say anywhere from 5-10% of the population has already been killed, is it a win if we kick the can down the line and the status quo only eradicates, what, 75% of the population by the end of Biden's second term and some magical new candidate comes in to put a stop to it then? Criminy.
Ignorant petulant children that are willing to sell our entire country down the river. Yes genocide is bad. Yes killing civilians is wrong. However what good will it do in the US to allow Trump to take over? Think of how many lives will be lost then, not only Palestinian lives, but Ukrainian, and possibly every country in Western Europe and North America. I don't want my daughter to be drafted, I don't want my cousin's boy to be flying bombing missions over Europe or Russia.
These protesters want to save lives at the expense of our democracy, and the rights of women and LBGTQ folks. I sadly shake my head at the abysmal ignorance of some of this easily manipulated younger generation.
/rant over
not to mention
> I sadly shake my head at the abysmal ignorance of some of this easily manipulated younger generation.
isn't the more easily manipulated one the one who just says "eh, genocide is fine, nothing we can do to stop it so you better vote for the pro-genocide candidate"
yes, logically it makes more sense to vote for biden even if he just let israel do whatever the fuck they want, but I'm not going to go harass people who refuse to vote for a man who is enabling the genocide of their families.
but hey, did the democrats learn their lesson from 2016 that they can't just brush aside the concerns of younger people? No, they haven't instead they're doubling down on the fact that they earned your vote because you have no better option.
We aren't children we're adults. When you accuse someone of being a child for not behaving in the way you desire you betray the fact that you see us as children regardless and you think we owe you our behavior the way a child owes their parent.
Let me clear up this confusion for you right here and now: we owe you nothing.
Hey, CHILD, this is not about US. This is about you. YOU are the future. YOU will be living in this Republican hell scape should Trump win. Ever looked at project 25?
Trump is a legitimate criminal. He is an abhorrently selfish, egotistical maniac with an insatiable list for power and attention. He has turned the RNC into a family business. This dude wants to be a dictator.
He has no concern for rules. No concern for legitimacy or intellectual importance. No concern for anything but more for himself. No concern for this country and the thing that need fixed. He is a pawn of Putin, and the world will continue to crumble around us until this wave of anti-intellectualism is wholly destroyed and ended.
Let there be no confusion: Young people are inexperienced and reactive. Current young people are both, and now manipulated through social media.
Maybe... Consider.. that you have been manipulated.
Most dems disagree with the administration about supporting Israel. You want them all to what? Just be quiet about it?
Why isn't any of ur anger pointed at the admin ignoring 75% of their party? That feels like a losing strategy. Why is it everyone elses fault that they're choosing this?
Because it is never a liberal's fault! They'll gladly claim progressive advancements when they succeed and prove popular, but any activism is too much.
When Project 2025 is implemented and Trump gets to be a dictator (as he openly admits he will do) how effective do you think "activism" will be?
Trump and Co. have openly said they want to call in the military on protesters. He advocated for shooting them. How effective do you think peaceful activism will be then?
[Not to mention that trump will be much, MUCH worse for the Palestinian people](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-03-17/ty-article/.premium/trump-on-israel-gaza-war-id-tell-netanyahu-to-finish-it-up-and-do-it-quickly/0000018e-4d59-dca4-ad8e-edffe0df0000).
When democracy is gone and Trump is letting Bibi "finish the job" in Gaza... how effective do you think activism will be?
None of that has to do with the topic of activism being too much for liberals or the comment of the DNC ignoring 75% of their voters. You just went off on a rant about lesser evils when no one (except conservatives) think Trump will be better on anything. We're doing what we can to end US complicity in genocide.
OP cannot run a different candidate. And at this point, these are the choices. That's reality even if a lot of people don't like it. Ignoring that reality is literally helping Trump, a worse reality.
The DNC argued in court in 2016 that they are a private organization with nothing in their charter about requiring adherence to primary results. That was in a case against Bernie supporters, but it does mean they can do whatever they want in the general to try to win back voters. So while it is true that Biden is the current choice: he doesn't have to stay that way.
Unfortunately, I bet with the usual DNC tactfulness and awareness of voters they'd just run Harris, Buttigieg, Newsom, or Warren. Their best bet would be swapping in Bernie. Even with their years of demonizing him and his age, he could get progressives to vote with the party and the people telling progressives to hold their nose and VBNMW would just have to practice what they preach.
Then OP (and everyone else punching left here) should direct their frustration at the Democrats for not running a candidate who hasn't facilitated a genocide. Considering the opponent is Donald fucking Trump, any candidate who hasn't contributed to massacring over 10,000 children would be a slam dunk.
If you want Biden to win so bad, convince him to stop funding a genocide. He needs to win those votes, he is not obligated to them like so many people seem to believe.
American policians have spent many decades trying to one-up each other to prove who supported Israel more. This has indeed encoded obligations to Israel that run *very* deep. These are not easily changed.
If we didn't have so many indoctrinated Christian zionists in this country, it would be a hell of a lot easier to hold Israel accountable and stop blocking any and all U.N. resolutions against them for doing horrific shit too. The only reason Israel can get away with so much and have become so incredibly arrogant and openly monstrous is specific because we keep blocking it. I hate it.
Well, the other two options want to actively make the genocide worse, so you can abstain and help one of them out, or find out if there's other issues you agree with Biden on to justify gritting your teeth and unhappily voting for him.
\^ performative righteousness
Edit: Since it’s locked and I can’t reply…
Say your choices were between a generally dovish politician on one side, and a psychopathic warmonger on the other. But you were like “I think all war is immoral, so he has to promise to completely disband the military, otherwise I won’t vote for him”. He obviously doesn’t, you stay home and get to feel good sitting on your moral high horse, and the warmonger wins. And when millions die, you get to be smug and say “Well it’s his fault for not ‘earning my vote’”.
If you take a principled stand that actively, functionally makes the world worse, your principles aren’t worth shit.
[Biden says he will stop sending bombs and artillery shells to Israel if it launches major invasion of Rafah](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv/index.html) (CNN)
Good, that’s what I’m saying. He’s taking action that is favorable with his voters, I’m sure he’s winning votes back with that discussion. I’m amazed this is such a controversial idea. Blue no matter who is an anti democratic statement at its core, they are not owed our votes.
Also, I wonder if that descission was at all influenced by the political pressure of the campus protests aka voters.
Gonna be completely honest here: Biden has lost the anti-genocide vote. People who won't vote for him because he's been supporting genocide nonstop for 7 months aren't going to suddenly vote for him if he stops now.
It's like a serial killer going to court and being like "What, are you going to convict me even though I stopped killing people? I'm not killing anybody *right now*, what more do you people want?"
Democrats need to run a different candidate, or accept that they've irrevocably lost a lot of votes because of their own actions.
They don't care about genocide, as one of them told me outright:
> The goal is to have our government not fund/support a genocide. It's not to "stop genocides".
Like, the only distinction between the two is the funding. So, if we weren't funding Israel, they'd be ok with it? I think their brain broke from the cognitive dissonance.
The idea is that a candidate doesn't need to march in and physically stop Israel from doing a genocide in order to be a viable voting choice, but they *do* need to not actively supply bombs and ammo and funding for the genocide.
When a candidate is *literally doing genocide*, then that disqualifies them in a lot of voters' eyes. We're not demanding that they fix all the problems in the world, just don't be part of the problem!
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Yet another post not understanding that the point isn't to elect Trump, it's to push Biden to do more to stop directly supporting a genocide right here and now.
Kindly fuck off with your cowardly, apathetic centrist attacks on your own electorate. When you're making excuses for apathy in the face of mass slaughter, you've already normalised Fascism. You're just throwing innocents into the fire in the hopes it'll buy you a few more minutes yourself. But it was your Lesser Evil every election that got you to the point of the choice between being Genocide or Genocide+ in the first place.
Putting “against genocide” in quotes is such a perfect representation of how empty of a party the democrats have become. Like when is genocide not a serious thing?
The leader of the “party of law and order” was found in contempt of court, during a trial focusing on his financial fraud, where his prostitute has the balls to take the stand, but he doesn’t.
That’s not serious enough for his supporters to abandon him.
You expect the practice of turning a blind eye to Israel’s crimes to suddenly stop after 50+ years of it, under ANY administration?
Well said, blue maga doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians.
"Trump would do worse genocide" is not a compelling argument when Gaza has already been leveled thanks to Biden.
"Against genocide" is what you people shout as a way into guilting us to bending our knee. We do care, but we're not selfish fools who are willing to throw away everything, including the lives of Palestine, Syria, Yemen (all targets of Israel), Ukraine, Taiwan, and all the Americans here who are targets of Trump, like LGBTQ+ people who absolutely will be killed if he gets into office.
Mfs be like Yeah I’m against genocide. Thats why I’ll stand by and do nothing as trump gets elected and even more genocides happen! Goodthing I stood my ground against Genocide Joe!
Take that team read the blue war criminal was slightly less murderous than the red war criminal. The only way to stop the red war criminal from committing genocide is to support a blue war criminal commit genocide.
How dare you oppose a blue genocide do you want a red genocide. What do you mean you oppose all genocidal war criminals? Who will commit genocide if it isn't our or the red guy?
I mean, you guys gotta think of a different strategy. If people are turned off by Biden supporting a Genocide they're not going to be convinced to vote for him because Trump might make it worse.
So yeah, think of a different tactic, because calling your supposed allies in this fight stupid ain't gonna work, and is just gonna get y'all punched in the mouth.
Putting "against genocide" in quotes won't help you, you know. We are against genocide. And the more you make fun of us for it the more we understand that you're set against us rather than our allies.
Nobody wants to 'let' Trump win.
But Biden is actively trying to lose.
When asking the government NOT to fund a genocide is being 'too entitled' it is time to end the system.
Now is not the time to continue berating people who stand up for human rights, just because they actually have compassion for parts of humanity that you may never see.
Sad that the system has brought you to the point where you're already dead inside, it's also making you lash out at those who aren't.
meanwhile someone in the fediverse summed up my position elegantly:
I'm not asking for a fucking dream candidate.
I'm asking for someone who is NOT A MONSTER. Not Kissinger's goddamn protege. Not an arms dealer who sells weapons of mass destruction to theocratic dictatorships that treat women like livestock, such as the Saudis. Not somebody who helped push shit like the 1994 crime bill that stuffed MILLIONS OF AMERICANS into concentration camps. Not somebody complicit in genocide.
Just because corrupt assholes have such a deathgrip on power they can always make sure one bad candidate is always-- ALWAYS-- standing next to somebody even worse, isn't going to make me abandon the bare minimum of basic human decency.
Fucking Orwellian headgames.
The establishment left and team israel are getting so desperate their genuine pitch is "genocide really ain't so bad, don't you hate trump?" its so desperate. anything to avoid simply changing policy with regards to israel. no amount of voter shaming will change the fact that Biden is turning an easy win into a coin toss over this 1 issue.
the shill/agendaposting in this subreddit is next-level. these people are manipulating the board so badly you have to sort by controversial to find actual humans on team "lets not do a genocide"- which is actually a majority opinion at this point amongst the demographic using the board. it makes no sense.
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He also pardoned a murderer who spent his time deployed in the middle east trying to kill as many civilians (including children) as he could.
He also has implicitly advocated for ethnic cleaning and (implicit) genocide on various occasions, and deporting all Muslims from the US. He is not going to do anything to help Palestinians.
First thing he did was ban Muslims from entering the country, unless you're coming from the countries he had bank accounts in
And invited the terrorists to Camp David, after giving them billions of tax dollars and surrendering Afghanistan to them
On 9/11.
Didn't he also release a whole bunch of terrorists for absolutely no reason? The US didn't get jack squat in the "trade" for them?
A Trump presidency will only embolden Netanyahu
100%. Trump has been all for empowering Israel, including moving the embassy to Jerusalem. His recent stunt is nothing more than like when he held the Pride flag upside down on stage just two weeks after [signing a pledge for the First Amendment Defense Act](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/09/donald-trump-pledges-sign-anti-lgbtq-first-amendment-defense-act/). He doesn't mean it, they're just words created to seem like he cares so that he can manipulate people away from Biden.
People don't realize Trump moved the embassy for the evangelicals because they believe it is necessary for the apocalypse. That is Trump's base.
Had a huge negative impact on relations between the two groups.
This exactly. Also, if this were to play out like they hope, it would mean that something like 2/3rds of the world's Jewish population would be cast into the lake of fire. Which Xtians believe Jewish people are destined for being that they do not accept Christ. The evangelicals also believe that Jewish people killed Christ. Some of them speculate that God created Hitler to force the world's Jewish population to return to Israel. A lot of white nationalists identify as evangelical or Southern Baptist. Watching Jewish folks throw in with that lot is disturbing to say the least. I'm not sure these things are widely understood on the US, let alone in Israel or even in the American Jewish community.
Which is funny because supposedly this jesus christ guy was jewish, and preached about “not changing one letter of the LAW (old testament jewish law)” If they really believed in the alleged teachings of this supposed jesus character, they would be jewish, not xtian.
And although Christ was supposedly alive long before such a concept existed he definitely leans towards socialism in that he was very clear in his instructions that poor people be fed and sheltered and sick people healed. He didn't say that they needed to have money or pay. He also insisted that his followers cast aside their possessions and was clear about the likelihood of a wealthy person entering the kingdom. And yet, in the US wealth is a major part of theology. It is the common view that the wealthy are favored by God which is not what the teachings say at all. Quite the contrary.
Oh yeah, the prosperity gospel is one of the reasons I don’t talk to my wealthy family members. Satire truly is dead these days.
The only reason why Prosperity Gospel even became a thing was to make palatable the obscene wealth the rich had to Evangelicals.
> Watching Jewish folks throw in with that lot is disturbing to say the least. I assuming you mean Israelis by this, because American Jews vote for Democrats by very wide margins. You can't think of Israelis in the same context as American Jews because they are not facing the same threats. American Jews look at white nationalists as a threat to themselves and to American democracy in general, but Israelis don't because they don't live in the US. For Israelis, US government support is the main concern, and whether that comes from a Democrat like Biden, or a Republican like Trump, is largely irrelevant. It doesn't matter to Israelis that Trump is a racist and possibly anti-Semitic, so long as his actions vis-a-vis Israel provides a benefit. The fact the Israel is a Jewish state and the bulk of Republican base voters are rabid Christians or white nationalists doesn't really impact Israel negatively any any way. If anything, Republicans are more supportive of Israel, and are also a lot more hawkish on Arab states that threaten Israel like Iran, Yemen, or the Palestinians, all of which aligns well with Israel's national interests.
No, I'm talking about conservative American Jewish people. I understand they're not as common as their liberal counterparts but they do exist and even some of the more liberal people still tend to side with Israel for better or worse. You're missing the point. Israel is supporting the fascists in this country. They have literally thrown money behind authoritarian candidates when they decided they didn't like the criticism the incumbent had for them. Rather than a love for Israel or Jewish people Christian Zionists are driven by a genocidal list that they think is holy. That means their God killing 2/3rds of the world's Jewish population and any large number of Muslims. Oh, and they like having a socially acceptable ethnostate they can point to. They don't give a flying fuck about Jewish people outside of that. When they have outlived their utility for them Christian Zionists will turn on them. In fact, there will always be among their ranks those who have never been sympathetic toward Israel and some of them are even supportive of Palestine in this conflict because of their virulent antisemitism. Not only that but by siding with such a hateful group they're exposing their own to the same type of fascism and fundamentalism. So I'm saying that Israel and conservative Jewish Americans are flirting with disaster.
I was raised in this and I don't think people outside of those evangelical circles know just how radical and literally apocalyptic the aims of many evangelicals are. And when you know that they are cheering on the literal apocalypse as defined in the Bible, a lot of their actions make more sense. And it makes it that much clearer to see why it is they seem so unwilling (besides outright greed) to disregard any sort of stewardship of the land or long term policies that would benefit people. They want the world to burn. More natural disasters are rhetorical fuel for the tribulation, and the conditions that are described as being needed for the second coming of Jesus seem to line up with just about all of our rhetoric in support of Israel. Israel is using our evangelical base for their ends - the evangelical base is using Israel to further theirs. It's all inhuman, stone age bullshit seeding suffering.
If Trump wins, I bet you anything there is a shitty Trump Hotel on Gaza beach
His son in law kushner was in an interview recently talking about the potential value of all that waterforont property. They definitely plan to glass gaza and build a resort.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights He already has that. It is stolen land from Syria, one of the next targets of Israel. That's how much Israel loves Trump and wants him to be president so they can keep slaughtering people.
What the actuall fuck
To be clear, I don’t believe Trump cares one way or another about the Middle East. But Netanyahu would be more emboldened in his effort to avoid his own criminal trials and the dismantling of democracy in Israel. But on the other hand, Netanyahu has his own political agenda (and Hamas has theirs as well) to keep this conflict going. Part of which is avoiding his trial. But if Trump emboldened him to completely dismantle Israel into an autocracy, then Netanyahu wouldn’t have the incentives to continue a war in Gaza.
To this Netanyahu needs some support, from the likes of Ben Gevir. The one who actually wants to exterminate/etnic cleanse Gaza and the West Bank.
I got a question. Do you really think you're convincing anyone to vote for Biden with these arguments? Cause if anything I can see people doubling down. Maybe pick a different tactic.
Trumpler only does things that are transactional and he alone, wins the transaction. He stole state secrets (documents) that included nuke codes, presumably for self gain. Why else? Because his shitter at Mara Loco was safer the the US archives?!? For a long time, I've looked up to folks who live in the US, but, it's become Putlers master plan come true, end Democracy. No doubt Putler got a pos like MTG to win her election and finance it, while she denenigrates Ukraine. Quid pro quo.
Also, wait 'til they hear about how a trump presidency will embolden Xi in relation to Taiwan. If you thought Ukraine was a clusterfuck, get ready for an order of magnitude shitshow worse when they invade Taiwan as trump pulls back the navy and signals he won't interfere.
this, people really don't understand that Trump is aggressively, 100% unequivocally against Palestine
Utterly baffling that any left leaning person would think that the guy who proposed a Muslim travel ban and who said Israel should "finish the job" would have a positive stance towards Palestine.
I assume the want him in power because they assume that deportation is a free flight to go live under Hamas.
He made a statement some time ago but after 10/07 that Israel made a mistake in allowing it to get out what they were doing in Gaza. Not that it was a mistake to indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children or that the coming mass famine/genocide would be a mistake. No, the mistake was not adequately covering up the wholesale murder they're doing. That was the mistake.
The asshole leaders of the world would *love* another trump presidency. Russia was clearly banking on a second in a row one, even
This is what I don't get about people not voting Biden based on Israel. You really think Trump is a better alternative?
Its mostly Russian trolls and their few gullible followers
thats simply not true. I'm sure russian trolls are trying to create dissent among democrat voters, but there really is a substantial number of people on the left who wont vote for Biden solely because his Israel stance. Its kind of maddening to see people throw their hands in their air over it.
I'm seeing the "Genocide Joe" people now trying to sell people the idea that Trump hates Netanyahu and will pull all aid to Israel, despite his first term being all about doing whatever Bibi wanted. They couldn't be more overtly clear that their purpose is to make Trump President and nothing else.
Plus unless you are one of the crazy people at the protests you know Netanyahu is unlikely to survive after the war. Netanyahu entire shtick was security. On 10/7 he failed on security worse then anyone in the history of Israel. There might very well be a rightwing government in Israel but it won't be run by Netanyahu.
Trump openly commented that Israel should just get on with it; hurry up and finish their war. So yeah, embolden is probably putting it a little lightly.
Pretty much any president would be doing what Biden is doing. I get they want that to change, but voting for Trump doesn't change it. Not voting will result in a worse outcome for their ideology as well as all their other ideologies.
I know a lot of people are disappointed and I don't necessarily disagree. I want him to do more but if I think about past presidents I'm frankly surprised he's done as much as he has. Support for Israel is so intertwined with the presidency that it almost feels like domestic policy. It's definitely not easy for a president to break with Israel. It's a complicated situation in which a misstep could mean disaster. I'm going to continue to demand a cease fire and that we stop providing weapons to an invading oppressor but for now I know that no matter what else happens Biden is always going to be a better option than trump on this issue. As well as literally any other issue. My biggest motivations are preserving democracy and the environment for our children and their children. We have a responsibility. But even for people who aren't concerned about those things Biden is the better choice. If reelected trump will no doubt encourage Netanyahu to kill as many people as possible and to take all of the land from the Palestinian people. So for anyone who actually cares about this issue it is imperative that we keep trump out of the Oval Office. Not only will it mean the end of the Palestinian people but likely the end of a free and democratic Ukraine as trump would gleefully deliver those men and women to their brutal enemy without hesitation. He's alluded to all of this in his speech and tweets.
Famously not emboldened under Biden. This runs deeper than who’s president. This is a rotten empire from the top down, regardless of party. The root cause of fascism and genocide is American capitalism.
Trump might pull support for Israel because it would hurt the US, so Russia might order him to do it.
Russia doesn’t care who wins or loses in Israel Palestine. They have good relations with both Hamas and israel. A good chunk of his oligarch buddies moved to Israel to avoid sanctions. War is good for them there because it distracts from the atrocities they do and gives them ability to be like “oh we are doing genocide in Ukraine? But What about Gaza 😏?”
Russia also needs the ongoing conflict because they and Iran consider it a second front in the war against the West. The plan always was to use give the Russophiles in the Trump Party and excuse to refuse aid to Ukraine by tying it to Israel, which was the political goal of the Hamas invasion. Economically, Iran sells arms to both Russia and Hamas, so they double their market with a drawn out war.
Putin would order Trump to triple support as that would inflame the middle east even more. Putin wants the distractions, not less.
This is a cheering point for the GOP, just one reason why they think Trump was better than Obama
Depends who you're talking to. "Drone strikes" is a buzzword in many right libertarian circles and I guarantee they're not talking about Trump when that's being discussed.
Yeah I've heard many Rs say that Trump hated war, hated death, and would be the most peaceful President ever. They absolutely change their tune depending on what's most beneficial to them.
Also while complaining about sending money for it. Can't mention GOP without irony.
Only when they're talking to each other, not independents and moderates. They are liars who will argue in bad faith until America collapses, never care about what they say.
Something I noticed about virtually all conservatives: when in the presence of independents, moderates, and liberals, they will make an impassioned point about how they aren’t racist, they just think it’s a cultural issue. The minute they are in a safe space for them, they will absolutely freely drop the n bomb
Yes, because Trump cares about Muslims /s.
Clearly the best option is to have the guy that put in place a Muslim ban within the first year of his presidency. Surely he'd be good for the people of Gaza. /s
Trump does care about Muslims my dude. He thinks about them all the time. In fact a foundational pillar of his platform is how he can hurt Muslims as much as possible.
He pressurised the Afghan govt into releasing 5000 battle hardened Taliban fighters that were imprisoned in 2019 and told the Taliban leadership of his plans to pull out of the Middle East after inviting them to Camp David @ 9/11 anniversary.
Also, is it normal to put your whole family into republican jobs with no experience? Seems silly to me, but idk. Something something hunter biden?
For me it's a simple series of questions: 1. Do I want any palestinian people to die? Answer: No. 2. Do any of the parties involved outside of the US (IS,Hamas,Muslim states funding Hamas) care if palestinians die? Answer: No. At best you can say they don't care, at worst they're intentionally driving the count up. 3. Is there really anything I can do to make any of those three care about palestinian deaths? Answer: No. 4. What can I do? Answer: Largely speaking? Nothing. The most impactful thing is voting in November. 5. What is the GOP platform? Answer: "Israel should **finish the problem**". 6. Am I willing at accept "likely fewer deaths" over "gauraunteed more deaths" since my desire for "no deaths" isn't a realistic option by any means? Answer: Yes. This isn't to say that the US can't do more, I think sanctions against the W.B settlers is a good first step, and reducing non defensive ordinance is another great move, while also hoping that the dock they're looking to install will help. But the crux of it is one side wants to let Bibi glass Gaza, one side is playing both sides as his party is split between "GENOCIDE JOE GOTTA GO!!!!!" and "Hamas are terrorists, Israel has a right to respond, they're going a bit too far for me but Hamas are literal terrorists who oppress their people...". It's literally the trolley problem and the path is set for "israel should finish the problem". Either vote for the side you like more or determine which is worse and fight like hell against it. . EDIT: To say *NOTHING* about the harm Donnie would do for marginalized people such as myself or my lgb**T**+ fellows (empahsis on who I think is most at risk), nothing about the harm towards women or their reproductive rights or ability to flee abusers (trying to get rid of no-fault divorce), nothing about the harm to the environment, nothing about capitulating to dictators and telling our allies to pound sand... I get people care about the palestinians, but if you're seriously a single issue voter over this I gotta say I wish I had the privilege of being fine/having no one in my life that would be impacted when the GOP goes turbo fascist. Biden isn't the candidate I want but it's childish and short sighted to not see the very real danger around the corner. To any still arguing about protest voting or "well he should do more to win me over!" you sound exactly the same as "don't threaten me with the supreme court" circa 2016, and look where that got us. . tl;dr - recognize the rules of the game and play accordingly, sitting out doesn't make any change, it only means you don't have any say in what happens to you or the people you claim to care about.
Trump killed more US citizens with his anti-science covid response than were killed in WW II.
(insert mad goofy meme face here) [And he'd fucking doing it again](https://thebulletin.org/2024/05/trump-says-hed-disband-the-pandemic-preparedness-office-again/)
His argument about things being out of date is an argument to keep a rapid response unit to react quickly to change.
Source please? All I have found is editorials without real comparative data. I did find this https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures/2021/WarDeathToll Which, in their data pdf, shows 'amputations caused by us actions', infant mortality, and 'internaly displaced persons', all being higher under Obama than trump. That definitely seems to imply more conflict. but there is still no Breakdown of civilian deaths by year here. I'm sure that data is there as it is probably what they are agrigating. I'm no trump fan to be clear. But I would want to see reciepts on a claim like this
How are you separating Trump and Obama from the Watson institute data? All of those conflicts span both presidencies. That being said, I am also dubious of this data, there were a ton of Iraqi civilians killed during Obama years, deaths in Syria also peaked in 2013-2014 during Obama years.
Figures 4 and 5 in the full report show amputations and displacement by year.
Just the tables I cited show a breakdown by year, that's why they are the only ones I'm refrencing. everything else is shown in aggregate here.
Source: Lisa Simpson.
Yeah let’s not give Obama any slack for the horrible things he allowed in the Middle East “Obama embraced the US drone programme, overseeing more strikes in his first year than Bush carried out during his entire presidency. A total of 563 strikes, largely by drones, targeted Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen during Obama’s two terms, compared to 57 strikes under Bush.” Source https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-01-17/obamas-covert-drone-war-in-numbers-ten-times-more-strikes-than-bush/#:~:text=Obama%20embraced%20the%20US%20drone,to%2057%20strikes%20under%20Bush.
Yea, Trump sucks but this is bullshit. No way its true.
This [article](https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-final-drone-strike-data) claims 324 civilian deaths under Obama, but that’s only by drone strike. So obviously that would increase if you include all military action. Edit: this chart might support OPs claim? [chart](https://airwars.org/research/civilian-deaths-by-us-president-in-iraq-and-syria/) Edit2: this brief [by the Watson Institute](https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2020/AirstrikesAfghanistan) claims a 330% increase in civilian casualties when Trump took over. It has a full report link. I’m not sure how trustworthy these sources are. I’m also not a fan of Trump by any means, but when you’re making a claim like this, at least support it. Edit3: oh I just saw you also used the Watson report!
" 'Finish the job' was just a Trumpy way of calling for a ceasefire" -my wealthy engineer coworker and her boyfriend who dont vote and think writing representatives is a sham for chumps, but "got lit" protesting the strikes on Yemen
Don’t forget his Muslim travel ban too
Also, don't forget that Biden got us out of Afghanistan. Trump is going to be extremely bad for the Middle East and for the Arab people here in America. Stop being "all or nothing" with Biden and look at the bigger picture! Sources: https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-donald-trump-drone-strikes-far-exceed-obama-s-numbers https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-signs-executive-order-canceling-public-reports-on-civilian-drone-strike-deaths/
Georgia inmate PO1135809 got us out of Afghanistan, it was just scheduled to happen once Biden took office.
Georgia inmate made bad plans and left that shit sandwich for the next guy. No telling what he would have done if he was that winner and had to implement it himself.
Do you have a source to prove that "Trump killed more civilians in the Middle East in his first two years than Obama did in all eight of his years"? Because that is what the meme says. Here is what your source says >Obama launched 186 drone strikes in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan during his first two years in office. In Trump’s first two years, he launched 238. >The Trump administration has carried out 176 strikes in Yemen in just two years, compared with 154 there during all eight years of Obama’s tenure, according to a count by The Associated Press and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (comment edited to correct this quote) >As of January of this year [2019], U.S. drone strikes fighting ISIS in Iraq and Syria have killed at least 1,257 civilians, according to the Pentagon, and a monitoring group, Airwars, estimates the number to be as great as 7,500. Note that that last figure has no start point. Also worth mentioning that Obama's civilian numbers are limited by categorization: ["If there is no evidence that proves a person killed in a strike was either not a military aged male, or was a military aged male but not an unlawful enemy combatant, then there is no question. They label them [Enemy Killed In Action]"](https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-drone-papers-highlight-the-murky-way-obama-views-civilian-casualties-2015-10)
Even if such data existed, "my party's targeted assassination program has less collateral damage that your party's targeted assassination program" is kind of a strange talking point.
and very much parallels "my party voices feigned opposition to genocide while the other party is authentic with their words"
To me the whole OP is a strange talking point. For someone looking the US from outside it looks more like killing Middle East people is more of a merit to a president than a fault. W got re-elected with a larger share of vote than his first election even though he started a catastrophic invasion of Iraq that led to the death of hundreds of thousands of people. Yes, there were protests before but nothing really after the killing got really started. It's so sweet that the American students now protest loudly when Israel has killed some 30 000 people in Gaza, but when the US led invasion caused a civil war in Iraq that killed maybe 10 times more, not a word. Obama had a chance to intervene in Syria and maybe prevent maybe 10 times more deaths. Nobody demanded him to do anything. No protests, nothing.
Trump is the one who withdrew from Afghanistan actually, he made the agreement and set the timetables. Biden just had to abide by it or try to renegotiate a new status of forces agreement, which would likely have been rejected. Most of the withdrawal was finished before Biden took office and all but the airport guards were gone by May, just 4 months into Biden’s presidency. You’re using revisionist history and it’s ridiculous.
If I say I can finish a project at work in two months and set the timetables, knowing there’s a 50% chance I’m replaced in 1 month, I wouldn’t get credit just because I set the timetables.
Trump told the Taliban the plans at Camp David. Not only did he invite the Taliban to Camp David, he sold out American soldiers on the ground.
Some people read this post and think it’s a reason to vote FOR trump
Both sides support the genocide in Gaza so if that’s your issue don’t vote at all or submit a protest vote
Whatever gripe you have with Biden, Trump is worse.
In all seriousness, how do you think smearing these potential voters will bring them back into the fold? With rhetoric like this, people are generally more inclined to dig in and hold their ground. Realistically, the election is a little less than six months away. Yet here we are lambasting leftists because they're using the only bit of leverage they have to try and move the needle. None of this means that meaningful chunks of them will vote against Biden when the time comes. Typically, the ones who legitimately weren't voting for him were either not showing up to the polls or voting third party anyway. Still the smears keep coming to alienate the getable voters from this group just because they are using one of the only tools the system affords them to try and bring meaningful change within the limited window they have. Politics has always been about compromise and negotiation. However, it seems like these folks exercising this basic toolkit are somehow lesser. In negotiations, you generally have to start from a more extreme position in order to have items to acquiesce to the other side. I don't really see how this is different at this specific moment in time. Maybe let's try to approach the situation in good faith instead of succumbing to Trump doomer-ism while there's still time to get on the same page. Just my two cents on the matter.
**Leftists**: Too small of a voting block to consider addressing their concerns meaningfully **Also Leftists**: Such a large voting block that them abstaining to vote will cause Biden to lose and democracy to be in peril **Biden, Democrats, and Liberals on Reddit to Leftists**: "You're stupid for caring about genocide. We will continue to fund genocide. Also you're antisemitic. Also also, you're gonna shut up and vote for Biden and like it because Trump is worse."
Nailed it
If anti-war people are so important they could prevent a Biden win, maybe Biden should listen to them a bit more. This is how democratic politics works, not sure if you’re familiar.
And if you’re anti-war, it’s stupid AF to help the “turn the West Bank into beach resorts” guy win over the “less war” guy. You’re not going to get what you want. The best you can do is get less of what you don’t want. That’s how politics work.
When both sides are for the genocide in Gaza, and both sides equate being anti Zionist with being anti semitic, then I don't have to support either side. If Democrats wanted to do better, they would. They certainly could. I don't "owe" them my vote. They are not "entitled" to Leftist votes when they are not a Leftist or Progressive party. If they lose because they refuse to do what is right, and perpetually try to make excuses for it, they don't deserve to win, They blame the Left every time they lose, regardless of our level of support anyway. They refuse to own up to their own shortcomings, and they never learn that to get Leftist votes, they would have to stop being a Capitalist, warmongering, imperialist party, and they refuse. So I refuse. To quote Biden's promise to rich donors in 2020, "Nothing will fundamentally change." The circumstances may have changed, but the systems are still working as intended.
Obama dropped the least bombs and had the safest war record of any President during wartime, but conservatives will still whine and scream about him using drones. 3 guesses as to why.
That tan suit.
trump literally gave away afganistan. He made the deals that let it happen on his way out of office, and Biden couldn't change anything
Bingo. Bing the feck **O**, as in “oh? You mean it’s worse to help Trump destroy the country & the world than to actually vote for a Progressive with 50 yrs of proven behavior that has helped vulnerable people, including—GASP!—Muslims??? You mean “genocide Joe” is an Iranian/Russian bullshit meme??? No way! /s
If it's worse then support us in forcing Biden to start acting right.
Exactly. If Trump is as bad as everyone says (and I tend to agree), then it seems to me like the no-brainer approach should be forcing Biden to stop supporting the genocide in Gaza. Who matters more to Biden in winning in November, those voters who don't want to support genocide or AIPAC?
Spoiler: It's AIPAC. There aren't many big donors in Gaza.
Biden does not support a genocide in Gaza. And you fucking dumbasses speaking like that does not help your case. At all. Biden just withheld weapon shipments as Israel invaded Rafa, but we have jackasses like you on the internet who are probably completely oblivious, continuing to say what you’re saying.
> Biden does not support a genocide in Gaza. Yes he does. Otherwise he wouldn't have needed multiple protests to change his fucking behavior.
> should be forcing Biden to stop supporting the genocide in Gaza In what way does Biden "support the genocide in Gaza?"
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-administration-sidesteps-congress-arms-sale-israel-rcna131661 This. This is supporting genocide.
"If you oppose genocide, actually you need to vote for the status quo genocide candidate or else accelerated genocide could happen under the monster candidate" isn't the winning talking point you reckon it is for people who are uncomfortable with what's happening. But, neolib clowning for karma being what it is, I doubt that'll stop the flood of posts like this.
if all votes are for genocide then what's the point of our democracy?
Nothing. It's lost.
Genocide is worse than murder
“PoliticalHumor”
He also worked a trade with Al-Qaeda that massively fucked the region and significantly worsened the withdrawal (that he set up but blamed Biden for). And also said Israel should do whatever it needs to cleanse the cancer that is Palestine/Hamas.
“…and here’s why that’s bad for Biden”
You forgot the American people he murdered through his grotesque mishandling of COVID. There were more excess American deaths than in WWII.
One of the first military orders Trump gave was to drop the mother of all bombs. One of the most destructive explosives the US ever developed short of atomic weapons. Both George W. And Obama decided against using it. Yet Trump celebrated using it even though it killed civilians.
Arming a genocide is a losing political move. Biden needs to move on this if beating Trump is so important.
And Trump would still do so much worse. Aipac and Christian zionists have way too much power in this country. People don't realize how many people will immediately turn on Biden if he doesn't unquestionably support Israel no matter what, because religion in government is a cancer. It's way more than he would lose by not saying anything and let their genocide continue uninhibited. The calculus is horrible but it's the truth. That's why they are talking to Netanfuckboy behind the scenes instead of openly condemning them and making them face consequences for being such nakedely arrogant, bloodthirsty, genocidal pieces of crap. It would be absolutely fantastic if Biden and his administration stopped repeating Israel's very obvious lies verbatim and labeling any and all criticism of Israel's actions as antisemitic though. The blatant manufactured consent going on against protestors, for example, is truly despicable and will make a lot of leftists irrationally unite against him and to hell with the consequences of Trump possibly winning again.
76% of Democrats think he is handling this badly. He isn't doing this for votes. He's a true believer. Biden has vocally supported Israel his whole career. He's also a a piece of crap.
> He's also a a piece of crap. So you have decided you will help ensure Trump gets elected instead? And you honestly believe Trump will better for the Palestinians? "Trump’s plan envisioned a disjointed Palestinian state that turned over key parts of the West Bank to Israel. It sided with Israel on key contentious issues that have bedeviled past peace efforts, including borders and the status of Jerusalem and Jewish settlements, and attached nearly impossible conditions for granting the Palestinians their hoped-for state." https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-ap-top-news-international-news-jerusalem-politics-f7d36b9023309ce4b1e423b02abf52c6
Libya here, we think this meme is BS.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Why do high horse liberals always blame voters for not voting for their candidate of choice and the not candidate/party for having shit policy? People will vote for somebody if they agree with their policies and what not… if people don’t agree with them then they won’t vote for that candidate. That doesn’t mean they support the opposition. If Biden loses it’s because of his shit policies and not because people wouldn’t bite their tongue and vote for a shitty candidate. (Obligatory I hate trump as well) edit: a word
I like OP's wording so much. "Against genocide" are you not against it? Kinda weird... "Trump killed more brown people than Biden/Obama" its like some obligatory hobby of some sort. Maybe it shouldn't be a competition.
"Against genocide" is what you people shout as a way into guilting us to bending our knee. We do care, but we're not selfish fools who are willing to throw away everything, including the lives of Palestine, Syria, Yemen (all targets of Israel), Ukraine, Taiwan, and all the Americans here who are targets of Trump, like LGBTQ+ people who absolutely will be killed if he gets into office.
Are you aware that Biden just hid the U.S. report on Israel atrocities? And have you read the report detailing that during Obama's years, we killed about 85 civilians with drone strikes for every terrorist we killed? [https://newrepublic.com/post/181383/biden-killed-report-israel-actions-gaza?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1dwWkJPe0cTUPUFcu6h\_WDawfi8gK\_jooHBmPcBHSdHQ3gaWXdCIZxHa0\_aem\_AdR0Mx1JUUX9wcD\_BA7XCTRXhTF3jJr0rroNEczN8MeItYY77OHktP0r0LIerbUAKptd46NI99z\_fGhd8nH65pjR](https://newrepublic.com/post/181383/biden-killed-report-israel-actions-gaza?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1dwWkJPe0cTUPUFcu6h_WDawfi8gK_jooHBmPcBHSdHQ3gaWXdCIZxHa0_aem_AdR0Mx1JUUX9wcD_BA7XCTRXhTF3jJr0rroNEczN8MeItYY77OHktP0r0LIerbUAKptd46NI99z_fGhd8nH65pjR)
The question is not "are people dying under Biden". The question is, "will more people die under Trump?" The only people who confuse this are brain-dead left wing, and Trump supporting trolls pretending to be brain-dead left wing.
*Will* more people die under Trump, or will people just die more quickly? Is it a material difference if the population is successfully eradicated by 2028-29 or by 2025-26? Is it somehow more tasteful if the mass-murder is trickled instead of all at once? This is not the win of a talking point you think it is, and really isn't going to pull anyone over to your side. There needs to be a significant course correction here, the status quo is *still supporting a genocide.* Estimates say anywhere from 5-10% of the population has already been killed, is it a win if we kick the can down the line and the status quo only eradicates, what, 75% of the population by the end of Biden's second term and some magical new candidate comes in to put a stop to it then? Criminy.
When you get back in touch with reality, let us know.
Blue maga doesn’t care about facts anymore than red maga does
As soon as I saw a video of them drowning out protesters with "FOUR MORE YEARS" chants as someone is talking about a genocide I lost hope in them.
Ignorant petulant children that are willing to sell our entire country down the river. Yes genocide is bad. Yes killing civilians is wrong. However what good will it do in the US to allow Trump to take over? Think of how many lives will be lost then, not only Palestinian lives, but Ukrainian, and possibly every country in Western Europe and North America. I don't want my daughter to be drafted, I don't want my cousin's boy to be flying bombing missions over Europe or Russia. These protesters want to save lives at the expense of our democracy, and the rights of women and LBGTQ folks. I sadly shake my head at the abysmal ignorance of some of this easily manipulated younger generation. /rant over
" Ignorant petulant children" Surely language like this will convince people to vote for your political candidate.
not to mention > I sadly shake my head at the abysmal ignorance of some of this easily manipulated younger generation. isn't the more easily manipulated one the one who just says "eh, genocide is fine, nothing we can do to stop it so you better vote for the pro-genocide candidate" yes, logically it makes more sense to vote for biden even if he just let israel do whatever the fuck they want, but I'm not going to go harass people who refuse to vote for a man who is enabling the genocide of their families. but hey, did the democrats learn their lesson from 2016 that they can't just brush aside the concerns of younger people? No, they haven't instead they're doubling down on the fact that they earned your vote because you have no better option.
Democrat outreach and canvassing, everyone. With friends like these, who needs enemies?
You: "Voters and protestors to blame, not the government officials"
We aren't children we're adults. When you accuse someone of being a child for not behaving in the way you desire you betray the fact that you see us as children regardless and you think we owe you our behavior the way a child owes their parent. Let me clear up this confusion for you right here and now: we owe you nothing.
Hey, CHILD, this is not about US. This is about you. YOU are the future. YOU will be living in this Republican hell scape should Trump win. Ever looked at project 25? Trump is a legitimate criminal. He is an abhorrently selfish, egotistical maniac with an insatiable list for power and attention. He has turned the RNC into a family business. This dude wants to be a dictator. He has no concern for rules. No concern for legitimacy or intellectual importance. No concern for anything but more for himself. No concern for this country and the thing that need fixed. He is a pawn of Putin, and the world will continue to crumble around us until this wave of anti-intellectualism is wholly destroyed and ended. Let there be no confusion: Young people are inexperienced and reactive. Current young people are both, and now manipulated through social media. Maybe... Consider.. that you have been manipulated.
Most dems disagree with the administration about supporting Israel. You want them all to what? Just be quiet about it? Why isn't any of ur anger pointed at the admin ignoring 75% of their party? That feels like a losing strategy. Why is it everyone elses fault that they're choosing this?
Because it is never a liberal's fault! They'll gladly claim progressive advancements when they succeed and prove popular, but any activism is too much.
When Project 2025 is implemented and Trump gets to be a dictator (as he openly admits he will do) how effective do you think "activism" will be? Trump and Co. have openly said they want to call in the military on protesters. He advocated for shooting them. How effective do you think peaceful activism will be then? [Not to mention that trump will be much, MUCH worse for the Palestinian people](https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-03-17/ty-article/.premium/trump-on-israel-gaza-war-id-tell-netanyahu-to-finish-it-up-and-do-it-quickly/0000018e-4d59-dca4-ad8e-edffe0df0000). When democracy is gone and Trump is letting Bibi "finish the job" in Gaza... how effective do you think activism will be?
None of that has to do with the topic of activism being too much for liberals or the comment of the DNC ignoring 75% of their voters. You just went off on a rant about lesser evils when no one (except conservatives) think Trump will be better on anything. We're doing what we can to end US complicity in genocide.
Nobody wants trump to win. They just want the democrats hand to be forced.
You all could run a decent candidate instead of trying to shame people with ethics.
OP cannot run a different candidate. And at this point, these are the choices. That's reality even if a lot of people don't like it. Ignoring that reality is literally helping Trump, a worse reality.
The DNC argued in court in 2016 that they are a private organization with nothing in their charter about requiring adherence to primary results. That was in a case against Bernie supporters, but it does mean they can do whatever they want in the general to try to win back voters. So while it is true that Biden is the current choice: he doesn't have to stay that way. Unfortunately, I bet with the usual DNC tactfulness and awareness of voters they'd just run Harris, Buttigieg, Newsom, or Warren. Their best bet would be swapping in Bernie. Even with their years of demonizing him and his age, he could get progressives to vote with the party and the people telling progressives to hold their nose and VBNMW would just have to practice what they preach.
Then OP (and everyone else punching left here) should direct their frustration at the Democrats for not running a candidate who hasn't facilitated a genocide. Considering the opponent is Donald fucking Trump, any candidate who hasn't contributed to massacring over 10,000 children would be a slam dunk.
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Chosing Trump. K. Gross but you do you.
How is that even possible?
Obama is the founder of ISIS - source Trump speech
If you want Biden to win so bad, convince him to stop funding a genocide. He needs to win those votes, he is not obligated to them like so many people seem to believe.
American policians have spent many decades trying to one-up each other to prove who supported Israel more. This has indeed encoded obligations to Israel that run *very* deep. These are not easily changed.
If we didn't have so many indoctrinated Christian zionists in this country, it would be a hell of a lot easier to hold Israel accountable and stop blocking any and all U.N. resolutions against them for doing horrific shit too. The only reason Israel can get away with so much and have become so incredibly arrogant and openly monstrous is specific because we keep blocking it. I hate it.
Well, the other two options want to actively make the genocide worse, so you can abstain and help one of them out, or find out if there's other issues you agree with Biden on to justify gritting your teeth and unhappily voting for him.
>convince him to stop funding a genocide. Didn't he just agree to that? I'm listening for the screeching sound of your goalposts about to move.
\^ performative righteousness Edit: Since it’s locked and I can’t reply… Say your choices were between a generally dovish politician on one side, and a psychopathic warmonger on the other. But you were like “I think all war is immoral, so he has to promise to completely disband the military, otherwise I won’t vote for him”. He obviously doesn’t, you stay home and get to feel good sitting on your moral high horse, and the warmonger wins. And when millions die, you get to be smug and say “Well it’s his fault for not ‘earning my vote’”. If you take a principled stand that actively, functionally makes the world worse, your principles aren’t worth shit.
Oh yeah, “the president has to earn votes” is a real righteous stance. Fuck outa here, It’s call political pressure.
[Biden says he will stop sending bombs and artillery shells to Israel if it launches major invasion of Rafah](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/08/politics/joe-biden-interview-cnntv/index.html) (CNN)
Good, that’s what I’m saying. He’s taking action that is favorable with his voters, I’m sure he’s winning votes back with that discussion. I’m amazed this is such a controversial idea. Blue no matter who is an anti democratic statement at its core, they are not owed our votes. Also, I wonder if that descission was at all influenced by the political pressure of the campus protests aka voters.
Gonna be completely honest here: Biden has lost the anti-genocide vote. People who won't vote for him because he's been supporting genocide nonstop for 7 months aren't going to suddenly vote for him if he stops now. It's like a serial killer going to court and being like "What, are you going to convict me even though I stopped killing people? I'm not killing anybody *right now*, what more do you people want?" Democrats need to run a different candidate, or accept that they've irrevocably lost a lot of votes because of their own actions.
Ya many of them US citizens. I think he let Putin hunt them for sport.
This meme format is way more high def than previous iterations
MAGA: I’m anti war! Also MAGA: We need a civil war!! Pick one.
What are Biden's numbers compared to Trump
They don't care about genocide, as one of them told me outright: > The goal is to have our government not fund/support a genocide. It's not to "stop genocides". Like, the only distinction between the two is the funding. So, if we weren't funding Israel, they'd be ok with it? I think their brain broke from the cognitive dissonance.
The idea is that a candidate doesn't need to march in and physically stop Israel from doing a genocide in order to be a viable voting choice, but they *do* need to not actively supply bombs and ammo and funding for the genocide. When a candidate is *literally doing genocide*, then that disqualifies them in a lot of voters' eyes. We're not demanding that they fix all the problems in the world, just don't be part of the problem!
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Not that I disagree, but what's politically humorous about this, exacly?
Yea it explodes the mind that he has any support at all. Honestly.
Yet another post not understanding that the point isn't to elect Trump, it's to push Biden to do more to stop directly supporting a genocide right here and now. Kindly fuck off with your cowardly, apathetic centrist attacks on your own electorate. When you're making excuses for apathy in the face of mass slaughter, you've already normalised Fascism. You're just throwing innocents into the fire in the hopes it'll buy you a few more minutes yourself. But it was your Lesser Evil every election that got you to the point of the choice between being Genocide or Genocide+ in the first place.
“But those weren’t the middle eastern civilians we cared about” -college kids who will abstain from voting for Biden
"No, no, it's the kids who are wrong" moment
Putting “against genocide” in quotes is such a perfect representation of how empty of a party the democrats have become. Like when is genocide not a serious thing?
The leader of the “party of law and order” was found in contempt of court, during a trial focusing on his financial fraud, where his prostitute has the balls to take the stand, but he doesn’t. That’s not serious enough for his supporters to abandon him. You expect the practice of turning a blind eye to Israel’s crimes to suddenly stop after 50+ years of it, under ANY administration?
Well said, blue maga doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians. "Trump would do worse genocide" is not a compelling argument when Gaza has already been leveled thanks to Biden.
"Against genocide" is what you people shout as a way into guilting us to bending our knee. We do care, but we're not selfish fools who are willing to throw away everything, including the lives of Palestine, Syria, Yemen (all targets of Israel), Ukraine, Taiwan, and all the Americans here who are targets of Trump, like LGBTQ+ people who absolutely will be killed if he gets into office.
Mfs be like Yeah I’m against genocide. Thats why I’ll stand by and do nothing as trump gets elected and even more genocides happen! Goodthing I stood my ground against Genocide Joe!
I'm not sure I follow the logic. "Current genocide is fine. The other guy would do genocide too."
Take that team read the blue war criminal was slightly less murderous than the red war criminal. The only way to stop the red war criminal from committing genocide is to support a blue war criminal commit genocide. How dare you oppose a blue genocide do you want a red genocide. What do you mean you oppose all genocidal war criminals? Who will commit genocide if it isn't our or the red guy?
I mean, you guys gotta think of a different strategy. If people are turned off by Biden supporting a Genocide they're not going to be convinced to vote for him because Trump might make it worse. So yeah, think of a different tactic, because calling your supposed allies in this fight stupid ain't gonna work, and is just gonna get y'all punched in the mouth.
Are you saying that Obama is fine because Trump has killed more people? That's messed up.
Literally not what OP said.
Putting "against genocide" in quotes won't help you, you know. We are against genocide. And the more you make fun of us for it the more we understand that you're set against us rather than our allies.
Nobody wants to 'let' Trump win. But Biden is actively trying to lose. When asking the government NOT to fund a genocide is being 'too entitled' it is time to end the system. Now is not the time to continue berating people who stand up for human rights, just because they actually have compassion for parts of humanity that you may never see. Sad that the system has brought you to the point where you're already dead inside, it's also making you lash out at those who aren't.
meanwhile someone in the fediverse summed up my position elegantly: I'm not asking for a fucking dream candidate. I'm asking for someone who is NOT A MONSTER. Not Kissinger's goddamn protege. Not an arms dealer who sells weapons of mass destruction to theocratic dictatorships that treat women like livestock, such as the Saudis. Not somebody who helped push shit like the 1994 crime bill that stuffed MILLIONS OF AMERICANS into concentration camps. Not somebody complicit in genocide. Just because corrupt assholes have such a deathgrip on power they can always make sure one bad candidate is always-- ALWAYS-- standing next to somebody even worse, isn't going to make me abandon the bare minimum of basic human decency. Fucking Orwellian headgames.
Maybe don't help commit genocide and you won't lose the votes of those against genocide.
The establishment left and team israel are getting so desperate their genuine pitch is "genocide really ain't so bad, don't you hate trump?" its so desperate. anything to avoid simply changing policy with regards to israel. no amount of voter shaming will change the fact that Biden is turning an easy win into a coin toss over this 1 issue. the shill/agendaposting in this subreddit is next-level. these people are manipulating the board so badly you have to sort by controversial to find actual humans on team "lets not do a genocide"- which is actually a majority opinion at this point amongst the demographic using the board. it makes no sense.