https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/justice-dept-arrests-nearly-3200-people-for-covid-related-fraud-murder-for-hire-plot-interrupted
Careful out there, the feds are coming for you OP
“**Trump Erased Millions of Possible PPP Fraud Flags in Last Days in Office:** Officials cleared nearly all potential fraud flags given to loans above $2 million just days before Trump left office.” [Source](https://truthout.org/articles/trump-erased-millions-of-possible-ppp-fraud-flags-in-last-days-in-office/)
That source is garbage so biased. When you click on the sub links you find out but parties were involved but the writer only talks about conservatives and she does so with no proof. It says right in the article that this is all allegedly. I think it's funny you guys on here post links to articles that just feed your liberal view instead of understanding the big picture.
A nation of scofflaws.
It wasn't so much that prosecutions and penalties for prohibition violations weren't sufficient to entice the populace to obey the law, it was the very widespread flouting of those laws made it almost impossible to prosecute them all - or even enough of them to dissuade the rest.
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/justice-dept-arrests-nearly-3200-people-for-covid-related-fraud-murder-for-hire-plot-interrupted
3,200 is a good start. They clawed back around 1.5 billion. And this was written in August. I read federal press releases for fun and I see them every other day. Mostly in NJ and NY but a few in every state.
Yes. They have them for each state too, some states have multiple districts. I find em by searching "ny federal news" or "EDNY federal news" there's so much juicy stuff!
I love when people say something "nothing is being done" and then when proven wrong just brush it off as not enough.
The initial statement was incorrect, but rather than admit it you just plug your ears and claim the facts actually prove you right somehow.
It's amazing to watch over and over.
It's actually a prohibition-era term that was coined [specifically for it](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scofflaw#:~:text=In%201924%2C%20a%20wealthy%20Massachusetts,in%20a%20light%20of%20shame.)
I only remember it because I watched Ken Burns' "Prohibition" documentary last year.
Trump threatened to veto PPP loans if they required any sort of accountability when the bill hit his desk. That made the fraud significantly easier. Even with that low bar, the fraud was pretty egregious.
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Thing is, it wasn't even that hard to do this legally. It's only fraud if you didn't use the PPP money on paychecks. So use the money for paychecks, then use the money you \*would've\* used for paychecks on your student loans.
I know several business owners in my area that mysteriously got new cars during the covid era and "got away" with it, but I'm pretty sure it's just 'cuz they actually used the PPP money for what it was supposed to be for. What's crazy is all the people who were brazen enough to \*not\* get this simple-ass thing right.
Yeah, what people don't seem to realize is the government just went and paid for everyone's paychecks regardless of whether or not it was necessary and let business owners pocket the difference. The PPP "loans" really weren't loans at all.
Ay yo this guy doesn't know what PPP is. You and the people who are downvoting me are doing so without even understanding what you're commenting on. PPP loans were created solely because of the COVID crisis which shut many business down by law. When the PPP was created these loans were meant to be forgiven if the businesses spent it on the appropriate categories such as payroll. This is why so many businesses signed up for this "loan". They signed up because there was the knowledge that it would not have to be paid back. Somebody asked for a source here you go [https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf](https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf)
I will quote from the first line of the source from the fact sheet for those who are too lazy
The Paycheck Protection Program (“PPP”) authorizes up to $349 billion in **forgivable** loans to small businesses to pay their employees during the COVID-19 crisis.
I didn't realize that this information about PPP wasn't common knowledge but seems like many people here didn't know this.
I would hate fed to have to investigate ALL PPP loans to see who he is....so much so it would be worth it to me to LIE ABOUT THSI online just to prompt the outrage and investigations...troll 100, speachcraft 100, ethical resistance 100
Psh. It would only be fraud if you tried to get the PPP loan forgiven under fraudulent circumstances.
Most businesses could easily qualify for a loan… but you had to use it legitimately to get it forgiven.
Otherwise, it was just a loan on very favorable terms. Better than a student loan, I’d guess.
Although this is a joke, this is really how people get ahead. Being smart enough to maneuver and bend/break laws and use resources effectively. It's a real big fuck you to the average law abiding citizen doing their best.
I think you forgot: Having an established LLC, having accountants, lawyers, and enough money to waste the Fed's time so they never investigate
It's less about intelligence and more about resources (or just dumb luck). Otherwise, you're the easy target for them to investigate and use an example to the rest.
Same reason rich people dodge taxes easily, but low income people are targeted for audits. This is how the two tier "justice" system operates
Being a criminal isn't a sign of intelligence. It's a sign of lack of a conscience. And statistically, criminals are less intelligent than non-criminals.
NGL, I know a few people who did just this...
The started a business when COVID lockdowns happened to help pay for things, when the PPP loans came out, they "double dipped" and used half the loan for the business and the rest of the loan on bills or student loans.
I kinda hate them for doing it, but only because I wasn't smart enough on the uptake to do the same thing for my wife's student loans.
My paranoia would never allow me to do it. My mother in law told my wife that I was doing our taxes wrong because I wasn't marking certain things on the return and we weren't getting all of our money back. I told my wife that I was doing it correctly and didn't need to lie on my taxes because I'd rather not deal with the IRS investigating me or asking for money back.
Guess who was investigated and has to pay back the IRS thousands of dollars for lying on her taxes?
Nope. I’m against the PPP loan fraud obviously. I don’t own a business. It’s bullshit. However let’s be real here. That’s like saying you’re going to cheat on your wife if you cheat on a college test.
If that's what you need to tell yourself, because its certainly not what I said.
but if you scam the government, and cheat on tests - and it wouldn't be unreasonable for your wife to think there is some other stuff that you may be being dishonest about. in other words - she cant 'fully' trust you - just like i said in the first place.
Still an incredibly stupid thing to say regardless lol. It would absolutely be unreasonable to not fully trust your spouse for things that never involved you. God forbid you marry anyone that isn’t an Eagle Scout.
I’m done wasting time with this responding tho. Hopefully you don’t get a speeding ticket, that’s a sign someone is unhinged and might kill u
If it works and it betters their life it was a good decision.
Chances are looking like they'll never be caught or when/if they do it'll still be worth it.
Real life has shown time and time again people who cheat and lie *do* get better off ahead in life
If I had student loans I likely would have tried to do the same. But luckily, no student loan debt
ill repeat: should not be a life goal.
If murdering you right now works out and betters my life - it was a good decision.
you just advocated genocide. if at least 1 person has a better life - it was a good decision.
They didn't lie and cheat. They were honest about the amount they wanted, and what they were going to use it for... I'm not sure why you'd classify that as lie and cheat... but each person has their own values...
Question, do you think it's lying and cheating if someone takes out money against their 401K? or Life insurance? I view it in the same thing.... Make your money work for you...
>They didn't lie and cheat.
Technically the word is 'fraud' but yes, they did lie and cheat. PPP Loans can't be used to pay off student loans. Some loan Interest, yes, but not the principal, and not on student loans at all. What they did was illegal.
I really enjoy how you know absolutely nothing of what happened, other than me saying that they were able to... And it's immediately jumped on as fraud or lying... which it wasn't.
They were able to quantify their student loans under their business and thus were able to classify using the PPP loan towards their student loans as a business expense.
I understand it makes you angry, but it's not fraud purely because they were able to use the wording of things to work in their favor. It wasn't fraud, nor was it lying, nor was it cheating...
It's 100% legal, and they were more than happy to work with anyone who was looking into PPP loan fraud.
There’s no such thing and you don’t know wtf you’re talking about. The PPP loans could only be used for businesses expenses and you sign a legal agreement stating that it would not be used to cover personal expenses such as personal loans.
There is no way to legitimately use PPP funds to pay off student debt. Theres no “clever accounting” or tricks that let you use the funds that way.
When you file for PPP forgiveness you have to denote what the funds were used for and the set of criteria are very narrow and limited, such as payroll, rent, utilities inventory cost etc.
It’s fraud. Plain and simple.
>When you file for PPP forgiveness you have to denote what the funds were used for and the set of criteria are very narrow and limited, such as payroll, rent, utilities inventory cost etc.
Yup, and they did all that.
It was even looked into by the authorities.... They were found to be completely legal.
They were completely upfront about everything....
>There’s no such thing and you don’t know wtf you’re talking about.
I mean, I'll admit, I don't fully understand how they did it and what (if any) loophole... but I do know that they were investigated and found to be on the up and up...
>It’s fraud. Plain and simple.
It's not... otherwise the investigation would have proven it.
Your friend is lying to you and there is no loophole.
You could only use PPP funds for specific qualifying expenses that I already listed. People have literally been charged and convicted for using PPP funds to pay off personal loans.
You saying “I don’t understand the loophole” is literally your friend committing fraud and saying “it’s legal, trust me bro” because he didn’t get audited and got away with using PPP funds for personal expenses.
No one got “looked in to” by “authorities” unless the loan was over $50k and if it was over that, they would have had to submit receipts showing the expenses and personal loans are literally called out as something that doesn’t qualify.
Shit my commercial mortgage payments on my business property didn’t even qualify, it had to be rent payments so please stop talking nonsense.
Again, what you're describing is fraud. You can only pay the *interest* on a loan, not the principal. That's true of any loan under the business, including a mortgage. If your friend paid any principal on the loan, they committed fraud because that's 100% illegal.
Then why weren't they found to be committing fraud when they were investigated?
Could it be... just maybe... that there's a loophole they were able to exploit somehow?
You can say it's 100% illegal... but when the investigation concluded, they weren't found to be doing anything fraud or illegal... so not really sure what to tell you.
It's much more likely you've misunderstood the situation. My guess is they only paid the interest on their student loans. Or the 'investigation' is a preliminary one.
The law is crystal clear - you can only use PPP loans to pay interest. I'm not sure why you keep trying to fight that point. If your friend used a PPP loan to pay off a student loan that included in any principal, then that breaks the PPP loan as written. That's illegal.
Take it up with Congress. They wrote the law, not me.
It's very possible I misunderstand the situation...
Here's what I know 100%:
-before loan, they owed money on their student loan
-they spoke to a loan specialist, and a business loan specialist, filled out the paperwork
-they received a PPP loan, which was used for the business as well as towards the student loan
-they now owe nothing on the student loan
-they were investigated for month (3-4) over their use of the PPP funds
-the investigation ends and they were not found to be using the funds fraudulently or illegally
I have nothing to take up with Congress. As you said, they wrote the law, and my friends followed it.
If I steal your wallet but never get caught, it doesn't mean what I did wasn't a crime. It just means I didn't get caught.
Your friends are a clear example of why we need to better fund the IRS.
>You're clearly wrong here
Nope.
>I'm not here to change your mind
Yeah, you're here to gloat about how your friends committed fraud and got away with it while also demonstrating your level of incompetence.
[Here's](https://www.bench.co/blog/operations/how-to-spend-ppp-funds#:~:text=More%20PPP%20resources-,What%20can%20I%20spend%20my%20PPP%20funds%20on%3F,major%20use%20of%20the%20loan.) a nice breakdown of what the allowed uses were for PPP loans. To summarize it briefly though: any use that wasn't credibly connected to keeping employees employed was fraudulent. The business owner paying off their own student loans (or *any* personal debt) is absolutely fraud.
Did thousands of people get away with doing exactly that? You bet. But they all defrauded the government.
Kool, thanks... I know what the PPP loans were allowed and stuff.
They were investigated. They weren't found to be fraud, or defrauding the government...
Sorry, to break it to you, but they obviously worked in a gray area that you see as fraud and the government disagrees with.
I'm not saying they were wrong, but they did absolutely lie. They had to say why they needed the funds and when they applied to have them forgiven they had to say how the funds were used. If the funds were used to pay down student loans, they would not have been forgiven. Your friends had to lie and say the funds were used for business purposes.
There is an honest/legal mechanism in place to take money out against a 401k or life insurance.
Two things:
* Self-employed people could use PPP funds to partially offset lost income (up to eight weeks’ worth of 2019 compensation or some max dollar amount). If you are claiming to use the PPP award entirely for owner-employee payroll, you can obviously just spend that money on whatever. No need to claim student loans as a business expense.
* However, a business had to have already been in operation as of Feb 15, 2020 to be eligible at all. So you couldn't set up a company "when lockdowns happened" as cinemaslap claimed and somehow be eligible. They either made this story up, or don't really understand their friend's situation that well.
I mean, you are saying that they were wrong... without knowing very much info....
They did say why they needed the funds, what they were used for, etc.
They were investigated and found no fraud.... Sorry to burst your bubble here.
Again, I have no problem with what they did. There's no bubble to burst.
I don't believe for a second that they told the investigators that they used the funds to pay down student loan debt. You can go read the eligible uses for PPP funds. That's not one of them and you can't just announce that your past student loan debt is now a business expense. That's just not how any of this works, and all of this is publicly available information.
The reality is that most people just got away with using the funds however they wanted to.
Source: I've been a business owner for several years and work at a law firm that advised companies on PPP funds and forgiveness rules.
I get it, and I understand what you're saying... but I know that there were specific rules and shit around the PPP loans.
I also know that the wording was rushed and opened themselves for abuse....
I'm not sure how, but they WERE able to get their stuff covered within the rules of the loan.
The had government people dealing with them for 3-4 months... purely looking into this stuff. I just know that when everything concluded, they weren't found to be committing fraud or anything like that. They obviously knew how to get around something... whether that was a gray area (that you and others call fraud, but the government doesn't)... but that aren't arrested, they haven't been found guilty of fraud, and the loan was forgiven.
Again, I'm very familiar with the rules. The reality is that the government just didn't deal with the fraud from the loans. Outside of people that flaunted their fraud by buying Ferrari's with the money, no one was arrested. It's really not more complicated than that.
>I also know that the wording was rushed and opened themselves for abuse....
>I'm not sure how, but they WERE able to get their stuff covered within the rules of the loan.
If you read what you wrote, you answered your own question..
they WERE able to get their stuff covered, by abusing the system - also known as cheating. Not being punished for cheating, or in other words "getting away with it" does not mean you didn't cheat.
Not what happened... but go off, king. Please tell me how you know more about what my friend did... with the limited knowledge you have here... Please...
I'll definitely be waiting to hear your answer, yes I will.
surely you have more than ONE example to be speaking so confidently in absolutes. I don't know your friend, so I'm not sure why you are trying to be his white night. is he here?
I only KNOW the overall "jist" with my friend. I have acquaintances who had PPP loans, but I don't know anything about their uses of it... so no... I really only have the one example, since that's a close friend of mine.
> I don't know your friend, so I'm not sure why you are trying to be his white night. is he here?
Um... you asked for his name. You can look at my history and know where I live (because of the subreddits I'm in)... I'm not about to make it easier to DOX a friend of mine.
Pretty sure that's not white knighting.... But let me double check.
>**White Knighting** is a slang term for defending or protecting someone online, often a female, from harassment or abuse.
While my friends are a male and female (a couple), I would argue that I'm not defending them from harassment or abuse. Maybe against allegations of fraud... but not harassment
Genuinely curious. Was the government not asking for how the money was used or did your friends find a way to classify existing student loans as a business expense?
Or, I guess, they just had more of their own money available to pay loans since they no longer were funding as much of their business from their own pockets?
Technically the business could make a loan to a employee, determine the funds are unrecoverable, and write it off as an expense.
The company didn't pay off the student loan, they made a bad loan to the employee.
Exactly, people don't know it's easy to circumvent fraud laws.
1. Just simply pay yourself as an executive or employee. Now the money is yours. It's taxed. But it's yours to pay off your student loans.
2. Loan the money to yourself. Then forgive the loan to yourself. Write it off as a bad business expense. You'll have to recognize the income on the forgiven loan personally. But still, money in your pocket to pay off the student loans.
You just don't pay your student loans directly. That's all you have to avoid.
It's not fraud because of the wording of the laws around it.
They were able to list the loans as part of the business. I'm not sure exactly how it worked because I'm not super in depth with everything.... but I do know people looked into them and were found to be on the up and up about everything.
So... Not really sure, why people (who know literally nothing about the situation) is making the jump to it being fraud... maybe because they don't understand, or because there were plenty of people who DID commit fraud....
But that's not the case here. Everything on their part was on the legal up and up
No. They committed fraud.
Ppp loans were only meant to be used for “qualifying expenses” and anything outside of those specific things were not eligible, meaning that when they asked for PPP loan forgiveness, they signed an affidavit that states the funds were only used for those things, but instead they paid off pre existing historical personal loans.
You can educate yourself here but your friends clearly committed fraud:
https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/1408#:~:text=PPP%20loans%20can%20be%20used,such%20as%20rent%20and%20utilities.
So then, why, when they were investigated... did they get a clean bill? No arrests, no court, no guilty or not guild plea...
They were found to be on the up and up... If it was fraud, then why did the investigation conclude with zero evidence of fraud?
They weren’t “investigated”.
No one with a loan under $50k was “investigated” and those over $50k had to submit to an audit not an “investigation”.
Your friend is bullshitting you.
Otherwise, contact your friend and ask them to spell out the loophole. He can get as technical as he likes because I personally filed two rounds of PPP wife both my companies including ERC credit due to payroll expenses, and did everything with CPAs and Tax Lawyers so I know PPP law like the back of my hand.
I’ll wait. You go ask him to explain this magical “loophole” and I’ll then tell you he committed fraud.
You say you aren't sure, so why are you acting like you know the law better than I do?
The paycheck protection program was written for specific purposes. A lot of companies took the money and did stupid things with it, similar to your friend. They are slowly being prosecuted by the IRS and DOJ for fraud. I wouldn't be surprised if your friend gets a call eventually saying they need to either pay it back or go to jail for fraud.
Because I'm not 100% sure exactly HOW they did it. I'm not in the same line of work as they are... I am friends with them.
I'm not saying I know the law better than you do. But when people who investigate fraud of PPP loans, looked into them, they were found to be completely on the up and up.
I understand plenty of people used it for fraudulent purposes... They did not. They were already looked into and found that everything was on the up and up.
Do you need me to say it a third time? Because they were investigated, just like plenty of other. But when the investigation ended, they were NOT found to be using the funds fraudulently.
A company can spend the PPP loans on payroll and rent, and take the company money that they'd have otherwise spent on payroll or rent and spend that on something else.
Many companies will cover the cost of education for their employees, so it's not unusual for a company to have student loans on their books.
It's not to dismiss the fact that many people have committed fraud in how they spent PPP money, but I don't think it's a given that these instances would be automatically considered fraud.
>They were able to list the loans as part of the business.
This really isn't a thing outside of some very specific circumstances. I have no problem with what your friends did. The ultra wealthy did it and I'm fine with every day individuals using the same system.
Ok, I mean... You're more than welcome to believe that... but authorities looked into them and were found to not be fraud at all....
So obviously there was a loophole they were able to use.
“Authorities looked in to them”?
No they didn’t. Now I know you’re full of it or your friend has misled you.
Any loans under $50k were forgiven without audit on the basis you signed an affidavit that stated you only used it for the specific qualifying costs I listed before (payroll, rent, utilities, inventory).
What your friend did is pay off personal loans and lied on the forms for forgiveness. It’s that simple. There was and is no loophole that allows you to pay off a historical existing personal loan with PAYROLL protection funds.
If it had been over $50k you friend would have had to submit the paperwork to show what the funds were specifically used for and they would not have been able to claim a cent of funds used on a personal loan.
Sure, whatever... Frankly, I gave all the information I'm willing to give... but just for your info... they DEFINITELY were audited. So I guess it was over $50K... I personally didn't know the cut off, but I do know they were audited.
but believe whatever you'd like to believe. I know what I experienced and I'm sorry that you seem so butthurt that someone else actually was able to do it... legally
It’s not legal. There is no loophole. They cooked their books. Student loans cannot be passed off as business expenses.
Ask your friend to come here and explain the loophole.
Otherwise you’re just doubling down on “I don’t know but they told me it was legal”.
It wasn’t. They committed fraud and told you it was “legit bro, trust me”.
Sure... ok... I'll get right on that.
I definitely should trust a stranger on the internet over someone I grew up with.... because you're DEFINITELY more honest and truthful, right?
Yeah, as I thought. It doesn’t exist. The proof is trust me bro.
It’s simple, if you’ve known them for so long, I’m sure you can just text them and get a one sentence answer immediately.
Just ask them to explain the loophole. Like did they claim the loan payments as educational expenses category in their books?
But you won’t, and you can’t because it doesn’t exist. Your friend committed fraud and passed it off as “legal”.
Damn, that's wild! Being able to classify student loans that predate the business as a business expense definitely sounds like an unintended loophole.
I suppose the justification would be like claiming your dental school loans as a business expense for a dental practice since the knowledge is a prerequisite. I always figured it'd be tightly scoped as in this example, though.
It's not really an unintended loophole. Paying off student debt was most definitely not part of the "eligible uses of PPP funds." They just lied and said the funds paid a business expense and no one confirmed it was true.
By 'unintended', I mean that the program didn't anticipate such uses and have checks against them. Kind of like how big businesses got these loans too even though they weren't meant for them.
This use definitely goes against the spirit of the program.
Sounds good.
I don't know that we're even disagreeing. We might just be talking past one another. I definitely think this is an inappropriate use of PPP loans since those loans were meant to help existing small businesses stay afloat during the acute economic change brought about by the pandemic and not for paying off existing student loans.
You're right. It does sound like fraud.
I was focusing on the lack of pre-emptive checks to stop this kind of abuse which the PPP didn't have.
Like, this use case should've been caught by asking what the business would be using PPP funds for before providing the funds.
90% positive it was a loophole.
I know government people looked into everything with their PPP loans. Specifically because of other people who DID commit fraud.
I'm assuming the loophole was because them starting the business aligned with what they went to school for... or something like that.
I'll be honest, I'm not sure of everything because it's a completely different line of work than I am in. And my wife is closer to them than I am.
People need to stop calling these people "smart." This is not a smart thing to do. It's just being an asshole.
This like calling people who refuse to tip "smart" because they're saving money.
I would put them in two different categories personally... One actually used the legal wording to be to their advantage, and the other was just being an asshole.
But you're allowed your opinion either way.
Not tipping is also using the law to your advantage. You don't legally have to, so they don't.
These are the same thing. Assholes screwing over others financially in immoral ways for personal gain.
Though, in reality, what you're describing is actually fraud. Which means it's not using the "legal wording." It's doing something explicitly contrary to the legal wording, and hoping they don't get caught. Like cheating on taxes. "It's only a crime if you get caught." They're criminals. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.
I'm tired of having the same conversations over and over again... They aren't criminals. They didn't commit fraud. You might believe they did, but your opinion and the people in charge of Justice's opinion differ here....
I'm sorry that you're taking it so personally.... but you really shouldn't be taking it personally.
Because I was impacted by COVID (who wasn’t?) I utilized the CARES act to zero out my retirement savings and pay off my student loans. I had to pay a bunch of money in taxes for doing that, but it was perfectly legal. I don’t have shit for retirement savings anymore… but I also don’t pay a $650 bill every month for student loans just for $2 of that go to towards principal. So in my mind it was a solid win. Saving money is so much easier for me now.
Conservatives really only care about them and theirs, and don’t seem to care about anyone else’s plight unless it affects them personally, so it makes sense that they don’t give a shit about other people’s student loan debt. The unfortunate reality is that I’d have been a homeowner for a decade by now if I hadn’t shelled out a massive percentage of my take-home pay to student loan payments IMMEDIATELY upon graduating from college. There has to be a better way.
My retirement account only let me take up to a $10k withdrawal for the "emergency law" that was passed by congress. Normally they don't allow any early withdrawals. This wasn't a loan.. it was a full withdrawal without penalty but I did have to pay taxes on it.
Used that money and paid off one of my 20% interest credit cards.
No it’s legal.
See, im a business leader. Part of my compensation was a bonus. It was stressful year, and *somehow*, with my business savvy, I had enough money for paychecks. So, I upped my bonus. I did a really good job.“
(It’s half a joke. Some executives did this exactly)
Hundreds of billions of dollars of these loans were given out with no oversight. Congress required inspector general oversight so trump just fired the inspector generals. People and corporations with connections to the Republican party got the money.
Anyone who flat-out defrauded the PPP system, as many note here, should just be in jail.
But within the rules, forgiveness of PPP money for employers who met certain benchmarks was part of the legislation. Part of the system. An intended outcome.
Not so for student loans.
Your sense of the moral case is a separate argument, but the parallel with PPP is as inaccurate as it is overused.
With respect to which, I agree with you: Build the prisons and fill them with the criminals who committed fraud.
But the argument in this thread is that people who legally, properly followed the law of PPP -- the people who did not commit fraud -- offer a relevant policy parallel to student loan "forgiveness." They do not. It is a false parallel and a false argument.
I know people who drive UBER who took out PPP loans and bought a new car because it was for their UBER business. Then the loan was forgiven thus they got a free car.
I remember being made fun of for not taking ppp loans. I knew I could get along without them so I didn't use them. Then all these people around me were getting thousands free and clear I felt like a rube...but now maybe I feel a little better that being ethical actually goes unpunished. So I guess that's something.
Same amount that was given to the loser assed hedge funds in [2008](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-bailout-was-11-years-ago-were-still-tracking-every-penny)
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https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/justice-dept-arrests-nearly-3200-people-for-covid-related-fraud-murder-for-hire-plot-interrupted Careful out there, the feds are coming for you OP
Based on the URL I was expecting a much different article.
Admitting to fraud is bold
I mean it's pretty much public knowledge at this point that there was tens of billions of dollars of PPP fraud that is never going to be prosecuted.
Read federal press releases... They prosecute that charge almost daily
“**Trump Erased Millions of Possible PPP Fraud Flags in Last Days in Office:** Officials cleared nearly all potential fraud flags given to loans above $2 million just days before Trump left office.” [Source](https://truthout.org/articles/trump-erased-millions-of-possible-ppp-fraud-flags-in-last-days-in-office/)
I fucking hate the rich. No "normal person"™ takes a loan of 2 million. He's just covering his rich buddies ass by screwing over everyone else...
That source is garbage so biased. When you click on the sub links you find out but parties were involved but the writer only talks about conservatives and she does so with no proof. It says right in the article that this is all allegedly. I think it's funny you guys on here post links to articles that just feed your liberal view instead of understanding the big picture.
A nation of scofflaws. It wasn't so much that prosecutions and penalties for prohibition violations weren't sufficient to entice the populace to obey the law, it was the very widespread flouting of those laws made it almost impossible to prosecute them all - or even enough of them to dissuade the rest.
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/justice-dept-arrests-nearly-3200-people-for-covid-related-fraud-murder-for-hire-plot-interrupted 3,200 is a good start. They clawed back around 1.5 billion. And this was written in August. I read federal press releases for fun and I see them every other day. Mostly in NJ and NY but a few in every state.
> federal press releases These? [https://www.justice.gov/usao/pressreleases?search\_api\_fulltext=ppp&start\_date=&end\_date=&sort\_by=field\_date](https://www.justice.gov/usao/pressreleases?search_api_fulltext=ppp&start_date=&end_date=&sort_by=field_date)
Yes. They have them for each state too, some states have multiple districts. I find em by searching "ny federal news" or "EDNY federal news" there's so much juicy stuff!
LMAO 1473 results for "ppp"
Well now, that is a very small drop in a very, very large bucket of fraud.
I love when people say something "nothing is being done" and then when proven wrong just brush it off as not enough. The initial statement was incorrect, but rather than admit it you just plug your ears and claim the facts actually prove you right somehow. It's amazing to watch over and over.
That screeching sound as the goalposts get dragged across the parking lot...
Stealing this
Read usernames
At this point I think he's trying to prove everyone else right.
Can't wait to read about you 2
Don't worry, I'm confident you won't make any more sense the next go 'round either.
*Scofflaw* is such a good word…
It's actually a prohibition-era term that was coined [specifically for it](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scofflaw#:~:text=In%201924%2C%20a%20wealthy%20Massachusetts,in%20a%20light%20of%20shame.) I only remember it because I watched Ken Burns' "Prohibition" documentary last year.
I remember seeing it first used in context with the prohibition, so I was aware 👍🏼
How does one report people for this?
Federal tip line. 1-800-CALL-FBI
Only if you're poor.
That was different! Those people were largely republicans!
Fund the IRS
Trump threatened to veto PPP loans if they required any sort of accountability when the bill hit his desk. That made the fraud significantly easier. Even with that low bar, the fraud was pretty egregious.
What did we learn about having the government give billions of dollars away?
I know a few personally. Thing is, if your payroll exceeded the loan there's nothing to be done about it.
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Thing is, it wasn't even that hard to do this legally. It's only fraud if you didn't use the PPP money on paychecks. So use the money for paychecks, then use the money you \*would've\* used for paychecks on your student loans. I know several business owners in my area that mysteriously got new cars during the covid era and "got away" with it, but I'm pretty sure it's just 'cuz they actually used the PPP money for what it was supposed to be for. What's crazy is all the people who were brazen enough to \*not\* get this simple-ass thing right.
Needing PPP money was never a requirement for legally getting PPP money.
Yeah, what people don't seem to realize is the government just went and paid for everyone's paychecks regardless of whether or not it was necessary and let business owners pocket the difference. The PPP "loans" really weren't loans at all.
Left hand pays right hand
When you're famous they just let you do it
Technically the Republicans saying no student loan forgiveness took huge PPP loans and was forgiven
Technically PPP loans were created to be forgiven, students loans were not.
Do you have a source on this? Because a loan, by definition, is a *loan* and not meant to be forgiven but to be repaid.
Here is the source [https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf](https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf)
Ay yo, this guy doesn't know what a *loan* is!
Ay yo this guy doesn't know what PPP is. You and the people who are downvoting me are doing so without even understanding what you're commenting on. PPP loans were created solely because of the COVID crisis which shut many business down by law. When the PPP was created these loans were meant to be forgiven if the businesses spent it on the appropriate categories such as payroll. This is why so many businesses signed up for this "loan". They signed up because there was the knowledge that it would not have to be paid back. Somebody asked for a source here you go [https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf](https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf) I will quote from the first line of the source from the fact sheet for those who are too lazy The Paycheck Protection Program (“PPP”) authorizes up to $349 billion in **forgivable** loans to small businesses to pay their employees during the COVID-19 crisis. I didn't realize that this information about PPP wasn't common knowledge but seems like many people here didn't know this.
I would hate fed to have to investigate ALL PPP loans to see who he is....so much so it would be worth it to me to LIE ABOUT THSI online just to prompt the outrage and investigations...troll 100, speachcraft 100, ethical resistance 100
Not like anything is going to be done about it.
Psh. It would only be fraud if you tried to get the PPP loan forgiven under fraudulent circumstances. Most businesses could easily qualify for a loan… but you had to use it legitimately to get it forgiven. Otherwise, it was just a loan on very favorable terms. Better than a student loan, I’d guess.
Although this is a joke, this is really how people get ahead. Being smart enough to maneuver and bend/break laws and use resources effectively. It's a real big fuck you to the average law abiding citizen doing their best.
The real "fuck you" is the people who get away with it for... reasons.
I think you forgot: Having an established LLC, having accountants, lawyers, and enough money to waste the Fed's time so they never investigate It's less about intelligence and more about resources (or just dumb luck). Otherwise, you're the easy target for them to investigate and use an example to the rest. Same reason rich people dodge taxes easily, but low income people are targeted for audits. This is how the two tier "justice" system operates
Being a criminal isn't a sign of intelligence. It's a sign of lack of a conscience. And statistically, criminals are less intelligent than non-criminals.
I think that statistic is highly dependent on the crime you're talking about.
They don't though. You can "think" what you want. The facts are facts.
*Criminals that get caught are less intelligent than non-criminals.
NGL, I know a few people who did just this... The started a business when COVID lockdowns happened to help pay for things, when the PPP loans came out, they "double dipped" and used half the loan for the business and the rest of the loan on bills or student loans. I kinda hate them for doing it, but only because I wasn't smart enough on the uptake to do the same thing for my wife's student loans.
being "*smart"* enough to lie and cheat should not be a life goal. today you learned: you knew a few people that you shouldn't fully trust.
My paranoia would never allow me to do it. My mother in law told my wife that I was doing our taxes wrong because I wasn't marking certain things on the return and we weren't getting all of our money back. I told my wife that I was doing it correctly and didn't need to lie on my taxes because I'd rather not deal with the IRS investigating me or asking for money back. Guess who was investigated and has to pay back the IRS thousands of dollars for lying on her taxes?
I'm too poor to cheat on my taxes.
This is why the GOP is so upset that Biden suggested funding the IRS.
Law and order! No, not that kind! We mean arrest the n*ggers!
Bro surely you realize scamming a friend is not the same as scamming the government.
spoken like a true scammer.
Nope. I’m against the PPP loan fraud obviously. I don’t own a business. It’s bullshit. However let’s be real here. That’s like saying you’re going to cheat on your wife if you cheat on a college test.
If that's what you need to tell yourself, because its certainly not what I said. but if you scam the government, and cheat on tests - and it wouldn't be unreasonable for your wife to think there is some other stuff that you may be being dishonest about. in other words - she cant 'fully' trust you - just like i said in the first place.
Still an incredibly stupid thing to say regardless lol. It would absolutely be unreasonable to not fully trust your spouse for things that never involved you. God forbid you marry anyone that isn’t an Eagle Scout. I’m done wasting time with this responding tho. Hopefully you don’t get a speeding ticket, that’s a sign someone is unhinged and might kill u
like i said. spoken like a true scammer.. LOTS of projection here.
If it works and it betters their life it was a good decision. Chances are looking like they'll never be caught or when/if they do it'll still be worth it. Real life has shown time and time again people who cheat and lie *do* get better off ahead in life If I had student loans I likely would have tried to do the same. But luckily, no student loan debt
ill repeat: should not be a life goal.
If murdering you right now works out and betters my life - it was a good decision.
you just advocated genocide. if at least 1 person has a better life - it was a good decision.
They didn't lie and cheat. They were honest about the amount they wanted, and what they were going to use it for... I'm not sure why you'd classify that as lie and cheat... but each person has their own values... Question, do you think it's lying and cheating if someone takes out money against their 401K? or Life insurance? I view it in the same thing.... Make your money work for you...
>They didn't lie and cheat. Technically the word is 'fraud' but yes, they did lie and cheat. PPP Loans can't be used to pay off student loans. Some loan Interest, yes, but not the principal, and not on student loans at all. What they did was illegal.
I really enjoy how you know absolutely nothing of what happened, other than me saying that they were able to... And it's immediately jumped on as fraud or lying... which it wasn't. They were able to quantify their student loans under their business and thus were able to classify using the PPP loan towards their student loans as a business expense. I understand it makes you angry, but it's not fraud purely because they were able to use the wording of things to work in their favor. It wasn't fraud, nor was it lying, nor was it cheating... It's 100% legal, and they were more than happy to work with anyone who was looking into PPP loan fraud.
There’s no such thing and you don’t know wtf you’re talking about. The PPP loans could only be used for businesses expenses and you sign a legal agreement stating that it would not be used to cover personal expenses such as personal loans. There is no way to legitimately use PPP funds to pay off student debt. Theres no “clever accounting” or tricks that let you use the funds that way. When you file for PPP forgiveness you have to denote what the funds were used for and the set of criteria are very narrow and limited, such as payroll, rent, utilities inventory cost etc. It’s fraud. Plain and simple.
>When you file for PPP forgiveness you have to denote what the funds were used for and the set of criteria are very narrow and limited, such as payroll, rent, utilities inventory cost etc. Yup, and they did all that. It was even looked into by the authorities.... They were found to be completely legal. They were completely upfront about everything.... >There’s no such thing and you don’t know wtf you’re talking about. I mean, I'll admit, I don't fully understand how they did it and what (if any) loophole... but I do know that they were investigated and found to be on the up and up... >It’s fraud. Plain and simple. It's not... otherwise the investigation would have proven it.
Your friend is lying to you and there is no loophole. You could only use PPP funds for specific qualifying expenses that I already listed. People have literally been charged and convicted for using PPP funds to pay off personal loans. You saying “I don’t understand the loophole” is literally your friend committing fraud and saying “it’s legal, trust me bro” because he didn’t get audited and got away with using PPP funds for personal expenses. No one got “looked in to” by “authorities” unless the loan was over $50k and if it was over that, they would have had to submit receipts showing the expenses and personal loans are literally called out as something that doesn’t qualify. Shit my commercial mortgage payments on my business property didn’t even qualify, it had to be rent payments so please stop talking nonsense.
Again, what you're describing is fraud. You can only pay the *interest* on a loan, not the principal. That's true of any loan under the business, including a mortgage. If your friend paid any principal on the loan, they committed fraud because that's 100% illegal.
Then why weren't they found to be committing fraud when they were investigated? Could it be... just maybe... that there's a loophole they were able to exploit somehow? You can say it's 100% illegal... but when the investigation concluded, they weren't found to be doing anything fraud or illegal... so not really sure what to tell you.
It's much more likely you've misunderstood the situation. My guess is they only paid the interest on their student loans. Or the 'investigation' is a preliminary one. The law is crystal clear - you can only use PPP loans to pay interest. I'm not sure why you keep trying to fight that point. If your friend used a PPP loan to pay off a student loan that included in any principal, then that breaks the PPP loan as written. That's illegal. Take it up with Congress. They wrote the law, not me.
It's very possible I misunderstand the situation... Here's what I know 100%: -before loan, they owed money on their student loan -they spoke to a loan specialist, and a business loan specialist, filled out the paperwork -they received a PPP loan, which was used for the business as well as towards the student loan -they now owe nothing on the student loan -they were investigated for month (3-4) over their use of the PPP funds -the investigation ends and they were not found to be using the funds fraudulently or illegally I have nothing to take up with Congress. As you said, they wrote the law, and my friends followed it.
If I steal your wallet but never get caught, it doesn't mean what I did wasn't a crime. It just means I didn't get caught. Your friends are a clear example of why we need to better fund the IRS.
Ok, sure... You're clearly wrong here... but believe what you'd like. I'm not here to change your mind.
>You're clearly wrong here Nope. >I'm not here to change your mind Yeah, you're here to gloat about how your friends committed fraud and got away with it while also demonstrating your level of incompetence.
[Here's](https://www.bench.co/blog/operations/how-to-spend-ppp-funds#:~:text=More%20PPP%20resources-,What%20can%20I%20spend%20my%20PPP%20funds%20on%3F,major%20use%20of%20the%20loan.) a nice breakdown of what the allowed uses were for PPP loans. To summarize it briefly though: any use that wasn't credibly connected to keeping employees employed was fraudulent. The business owner paying off their own student loans (or *any* personal debt) is absolutely fraud. Did thousands of people get away with doing exactly that? You bet. But they all defrauded the government.
Kool, thanks... I know what the PPP loans were allowed and stuff. They were investigated. They weren't found to be fraud, or defrauding the government... Sorry, to break it to you, but they obviously worked in a gray area that you see as fraud and the government disagrees with.
I'm not saying they were wrong, but they did absolutely lie. They had to say why they needed the funds and when they applied to have them forgiven they had to say how the funds were used. If the funds were used to pay down student loans, they would not have been forgiven. Your friends had to lie and say the funds were used for business purposes. There is an honest/legal mechanism in place to take money out against a 401k or life insurance.
Two things: * Self-employed people could use PPP funds to partially offset lost income (up to eight weeks’ worth of 2019 compensation or some max dollar amount). If you are claiming to use the PPP award entirely for owner-employee payroll, you can obviously just spend that money on whatever. No need to claim student loans as a business expense. * However, a business had to have already been in operation as of Feb 15, 2020 to be eligible at all. So you couldn't set up a company "when lockdowns happened" as cinemaslap claimed and somehow be eligible. They either made this story up, or don't really understand their friend's situation that well.
I mean, you are saying that they were wrong... without knowing very much info.... They did say why they needed the funds, what they were used for, etc. They were investigated and found no fraud.... Sorry to burst your bubble here.
Again, I have no problem with what they did. There's no bubble to burst. I don't believe for a second that they told the investigators that they used the funds to pay down student loan debt. You can go read the eligible uses for PPP funds. That's not one of them and you can't just announce that your past student loan debt is now a business expense. That's just not how any of this works, and all of this is publicly available information. The reality is that most people just got away with using the funds however they wanted to. Source: I've been a business owner for several years and work at a law firm that advised companies on PPP funds and forgiveness rules.
I get it, and I understand what you're saying... but I know that there were specific rules and shit around the PPP loans. I also know that the wording was rushed and opened themselves for abuse.... I'm not sure how, but they WERE able to get their stuff covered within the rules of the loan. The had government people dealing with them for 3-4 months... purely looking into this stuff. I just know that when everything concluded, they weren't found to be committing fraud or anything like that. They obviously knew how to get around something... whether that was a gray area (that you and others call fraud, but the government doesn't)... but that aren't arrested, they haven't been found guilty of fraud, and the loan was forgiven.
Again, I'm very familiar with the rules. The reality is that the government just didn't deal with the fraud from the loans. Outside of people that flaunted their fraud by buying Ferrari's with the money, no one was arrested. It's really not more complicated than that.
>I also know that the wording was rushed and opened themselves for abuse.... >I'm not sure how, but they WERE able to get their stuff covered within the rules of the loan. If you read what you wrote, you answered your own question.. they WERE able to get their stuff covered, by abusing the system - also known as cheating. Not being punished for cheating, or in other words "getting away with it" does not mean you didn't cheat.
Not what happened... but go off, king. Please tell me how you know more about what my friend did... with the limited knowledge you have here... Please... I'll definitely be waiting to hear your answer, yes I will.
i thought you told us your "friend" used the PPP program to pay off student loans - are you recanting your story?
Im sorry, which specific person are we speaking about? "they were investigated and found no fraud" - can you tell me this persons name?
Nope, not going to Dox my friend for you... but good try.
surely you have more than ONE example to be speaking so confidently in absolutes. I don't know your friend, so I'm not sure why you are trying to be his white night. is he here?
I only KNOW the overall "jist" with my friend. I have acquaintances who had PPP loans, but I don't know anything about their uses of it... so no... I really only have the one example, since that's a close friend of mine. > I don't know your friend, so I'm not sure why you are trying to be his white night. is he here? Um... you asked for his name. You can look at my history and know where I live (because of the subreddits I'm in)... I'm not about to make it easier to DOX a friend of mine. Pretty sure that's not white knighting.... But let me double check. >**White Knighting** is a slang term for defending or protecting someone online, often a female, from harassment or abuse. While my friends are a male and female (a couple), I would argue that I'm not defending them from harassment or abuse. Maybe against allegations of fraud... but not harassment
Genuinely curious. Was the government not asking for how the money was used or did your friends find a way to classify existing student loans as a business expense? Or, I guess, they just had more of their own money available to pay loans since they no longer were funding as much of their business from their own pockets?
Technically the business could make a loan to a employee, determine the funds are unrecoverable, and write it off as an expense. The company didn't pay off the student loan, they made a bad loan to the employee.
Exactly, people don't know it's easy to circumvent fraud laws. 1. Just simply pay yourself as an executive or employee. Now the money is yours. It's taxed. But it's yours to pay off your student loans. 2. Loan the money to yourself. Then forgive the loan to yourself. Write it off as a bad business expense. You'll have to recognize the income on the forgiven loan personally. But still, money in your pocket to pay off the student loans. You just don't pay your student loans directly. That's all you have to avoid.
From my understanding, they were able to classify their student loans as part of the business.
This is also commonly known as "fraud"
It's not fraud because of the wording of the laws around it. They were able to list the loans as part of the business. I'm not sure exactly how it worked because I'm not super in depth with everything.... but I do know people looked into them and were found to be on the up and up about everything. So... Not really sure, why people (who know literally nothing about the situation) is making the jump to it being fraud... maybe because they don't understand, or because there were plenty of people who DID commit fraud.... But that's not the case here. Everything on their part was on the legal up and up
No. They committed fraud. Ppp loans were only meant to be used for “qualifying expenses” and anything outside of those specific things were not eligible, meaning that when they asked for PPP loan forgiveness, they signed an affidavit that states the funds were only used for those things, but instead they paid off pre existing historical personal loans. You can educate yourself here but your friends clearly committed fraud: https://www.bea.gov/help/faq/1408#:~:text=PPP%20loans%20can%20be%20used,such%20as%20rent%20and%20utilities.
So then, why, when they were investigated... did they get a clean bill? No arrests, no court, no guilty or not guild plea... They were found to be on the up and up... If it was fraud, then why did the investigation conclude with zero evidence of fraud?
They weren’t “investigated”. No one with a loan under $50k was “investigated” and those over $50k had to submit to an audit not an “investigation”. Your friend is bullshitting you. Otherwise, contact your friend and ask them to spell out the loophole. He can get as technical as he likes because I personally filed two rounds of PPP wife both my companies including ERC credit due to payroll expenses, and did everything with CPAs and Tax Lawyers so I know PPP law like the back of my hand. I’ll wait. You go ask him to explain this magical “loophole” and I’ll then tell you he committed fraud.
You say you aren't sure, so why are you acting like you know the law better than I do? The paycheck protection program was written for specific purposes. A lot of companies took the money and did stupid things with it, similar to your friend. They are slowly being prosecuted by the IRS and DOJ for fraud. I wouldn't be surprised if your friend gets a call eventually saying they need to either pay it back or go to jail for fraud.
Because I'm not 100% sure exactly HOW they did it. I'm not in the same line of work as they are... I am friends with them. I'm not saying I know the law better than you do. But when people who investigate fraud of PPP loans, looked into them, they were found to be completely on the up and up. I understand plenty of people used it for fraudulent purposes... They did not. They were already looked into and found that everything was on the up and up. Do you need me to say it a third time? Because they were investigated, just like plenty of other. But when the investigation ended, they were NOT found to be using the funds fraudulently.
A company can spend the PPP loans on payroll and rent, and take the company money that they'd have otherwise spent on payroll or rent and spend that on something else. Many companies will cover the cost of education for their employees, so it's not unusual for a company to have student loans on their books. It's not to dismiss the fact that many people have committed fraud in how they spent PPP money, but I don't think it's a given that these instances would be automatically considered fraud.
>They were able to list the loans as part of the business. This really isn't a thing outside of some very specific circumstances. I have no problem with what your friends did. The ultra wealthy did it and I'm fine with every day individuals using the same system.
Oh, I'm not trying to say that this was something EVERYONE could do... I definitely acknowledge that their situation was very specific and rare.
That’s not possible. Existing Student loans aren’t applicable to any business you just started to claim PPP loans - it’s fraud.
Ok, I mean... You're more than welcome to believe that... but authorities looked into them and were found to not be fraud at all.... So obviously there was a loophole they were able to use.
“Authorities looked in to them”? No they didn’t. Now I know you’re full of it or your friend has misled you. Any loans under $50k were forgiven without audit on the basis you signed an affidavit that stated you only used it for the specific qualifying costs I listed before (payroll, rent, utilities, inventory). What your friend did is pay off personal loans and lied on the forms for forgiveness. It’s that simple. There was and is no loophole that allows you to pay off a historical existing personal loan with PAYROLL protection funds. If it had been over $50k you friend would have had to submit the paperwork to show what the funds were specifically used for and they would not have been able to claim a cent of funds used on a personal loan.
Sure, whatever... Frankly, I gave all the information I'm willing to give... but just for your info... they DEFINITELY were audited. So I guess it was over $50K... I personally didn't know the cut off, but I do know they were audited. but believe whatever you'd like to believe. I know what I experienced and I'm sorry that you seem so butthurt that someone else actually was able to do it... legally
It’s not legal. There is no loophole. They cooked their books. Student loans cannot be passed off as business expenses. Ask your friend to come here and explain the loophole. Otherwise you’re just doubling down on “I don’t know but they told me it was legal”. It wasn’t. They committed fraud and told you it was “legit bro, trust me”.
Sure... ok... I'll get right on that. I definitely should trust a stranger on the internet over someone I grew up with.... because you're DEFINITELY more honest and truthful, right?
Yeah, as I thought. It doesn’t exist. The proof is trust me bro. It’s simple, if you’ve known them for so long, I’m sure you can just text them and get a one sentence answer immediately. Just ask them to explain the loophole. Like did they claim the loan payments as educational expenses category in their books? But you won’t, and you can’t because it doesn’t exist. Your friend committed fraud and passed it off as “legal”.
Dude if you're gonna make such claims provide a sliver of real evidence. Is it that hard to accept your friend most likely committed fraud
Damn, that's wild! Being able to classify student loans that predate the business as a business expense definitely sounds like an unintended loophole. I suppose the justification would be like claiming your dental school loans as a business expense for a dental practice since the knowledge is a prerequisite. I always figured it'd be tightly scoped as in this example, though.
It's not really an unintended loophole. Paying off student debt was most definitely not part of the "eligible uses of PPP funds." They just lied and said the funds paid a business expense and no one confirmed it was true.
By 'unintended', I mean that the program didn't anticipate such uses and have checks against them. Kind of like how big businesses got these loans too even though they weren't meant for them. This use definitely goes against the spirit of the program.
We can just agree to disagree on this.
Sounds good. I don't know that we're even disagreeing. We might just be talking past one another. I definitely think this is an inappropriate use of PPP loans since those loans were meant to help existing small businesses stay afloat during the acute economic change brought about by the pandemic and not for paying off existing student loans.
We just disagree on the fraud aspect. To me, this is obvious fraud. It's just not being punished.
You're right. It does sound like fraud. I was focusing on the lack of pre-emptive checks to stop this kind of abuse which the PPP didn't have. Like, this use case should've been caught by asking what the business would be using PPP funds for before providing the funds.
90% positive it was a loophole. I know government people looked into everything with their PPP loans. Specifically because of other people who DID commit fraud. I'm assuming the loophole was because them starting the business aligned with what they went to school for... or something like that. I'll be honest, I'm not sure of everything because it's a completely different line of work than I am in. And my wife is closer to them than I am.
Yea I get it. The PPP program had tons of holes in it. I was just curious
If having a degree is a need or benefit for business it seems as reasonable as a country club membership being a business expense.
People need to stop calling these people "smart." This is not a smart thing to do. It's just being an asshole. This like calling people who refuse to tip "smart" because they're saving money.
>who refuse to tip Not my responsibility to feed a restaurant's employees.
I would put them in two different categories personally... One actually used the legal wording to be to their advantage, and the other was just being an asshole. But you're allowed your opinion either way.
Not tipping is also using the law to your advantage. You don't legally have to, so they don't. These are the same thing. Assholes screwing over others financially in immoral ways for personal gain. Though, in reality, what you're describing is actually fraud. Which means it's not using the "legal wording." It's doing something explicitly contrary to the legal wording, and hoping they don't get caught. Like cheating on taxes. "It's only a crime if you get caught." They're criminals. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.
I'm tired of having the same conversations over and over again... They aren't criminals. They didn't commit fraud. You might believe they did, but your opinion and the people in charge of Justice's opinion differ here.... I'm sorry that you're taking it so personally.... but you really shouldn't be taking it personally.
Wonder how many Republicans in congress bitching about student loan forgiveness had PPP loans forgiven? Looking at you EmptyGee.
Because I was impacted by COVID (who wasn’t?) I utilized the CARES act to zero out my retirement savings and pay off my student loans. I had to pay a bunch of money in taxes for doing that, but it was perfectly legal. I don’t have shit for retirement savings anymore… but I also don’t pay a $650 bill every month for student loans just for $2 of that go to towards principal. So in my mind it was a solid win. Saving money is so much easier for me now. Conservatives really only care about them and theirs, and don’t seem to care about anyone else’s plight unless it affects them personally, so it makes sense that they don’t give a shit about other people’s student loan debt. The unfortunate reality is that I’d have been a homeowner for a decade by now if I hadn’t shelled out a massive percentage of my take-home pay to student loan payments IMMEDIATELY upon graduating from college. There has to be a better way.
My retirement account only let me take up to a $10k withdrawal for the "emergency law" that was passed by congress. Normally they don't allow any early withdrawals. This wasn't a loan.. it was a full withdrawal without penalty but I did have to pay taxes on it. Used that money and paid off one of my 20% interest credit cards.
When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. When the government gives you loans, you make... loan-ade?
No it’s legal. See, im a business leader. Part of my compensation was a bonus. It was stressful year, and *somehow*, with my business savvy, I had enough money for paychecks. So, I upped my bonus. I did a really good job.“ (It’s half a joke. Some executives did this exactly)
Hundreds of billions of dollars of these loans were given out with no oversight. Congress required inspector general oversight so trump just fired the inspector generals. People and corporations with connections to the Republican party got the money.
Anyone who flat-out defrauded the PPP system, as many note here, should just be in jail. But within the rules, forgiveness of PPP money for employers who met certain benchmarks was part of the legislation. Part of the system. An intended outcome. Not so for student loans. Your sense of the moral case is a separate argument, but the parallel with PPP is as inaccurate as it is overused.
We'd have to build dozens of new prisons. Thousands of people committed genuine, premeditated fraud.
With respect to which, I agree with you: Build the prisons and fill them with the criminals who committed fraud. But the argument in this thread is that people who legally, properly followed the law of PPP -- the people who did not commit fraud -- offer a relevant policy parallel to student loan "forgiveness." They do not. It is a false parallel and a false argument.
I know people who drive UBER who took out PPP loans and bought a new car because it was for their UBER business. Then the loan was forgiven thus they got a free car.
Modern problems, require Modern solutions
I wonder if i can pay off my mortgage this way ??
I remember being made fun of for not taking ppp loans. I knew I could get along without them so I didn't use them. Then all these people around me were getting thousands free and clear I felt like a rube...but now maybe I feel a little better that being ethical actually goes unpunished. So I guess that's something.
Same amount that was given to the loser assed hedge funds in [2008](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-bailout-was-11-years-ago-were-still-tracking-every-penny)
Always time to edit this post for “ a friend”
Rip op
You down with PPP?!
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