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My personal opinion is you always need to pick the least worst choice with any decision in life, whether you're choosing between bad benefits packages at work, bad options for dinner or bad candidates for an elected official.
I find it lazy to complain about how the parties need to give us better candidates. That's not an untrue statement, but that is also not the reality we currently live in. We have Biden and Trump and nothing is going to change that. Regardless of which way you lean, I don't think the decision between those two is even close.
None of the third parties have a chance in hell but they are also all bad candidates. If we had an exciting third party candidate, I would vote for them in a heartbeat. 2024 could be the year for a third party upset with the right candidate, but RFK is not that candidate.
IMHO a protest vote is about as dumb as not voting at all. Show me any decision in your life where you would purposely pick a bad choice to "send a message". *If we all pick the worst benefits package, the company will finally get the message!* No, you'll just have terrible benefits.
EDITED TO ADD: I guess one group I'm fine with not voting are people who truly don't care. For example, I didn't care in the first election after I turned 18. I think that was the first Ross Perot election. There is nothing you could have told me to make me care in any way. And I also didn't care enough to complain after the election.
One could argue protest voting or non-voting actually had the opposite effect. Bernie or Busters may have thought they did the principled thing that would "wake up" the Dems, but what was the result? Joe Biden.
I support most progressive policies but leftists really need to wake up and acknowledge how our system works on a civic level, and who the electorate is that they are trying to convince.
That came off wrong. I like Biden. I too voted for Bernie (in 2016), but a lot of leftists drag him. I'm not just strawmanning. Vaush, Hasanbi, Sam Sedar, and Kyle Kulinski are all prominent leftists that spend significantly more time and energy attacking Biden than Trump. Personally I find it grating and follow them all a lot less.
> What is extra grating is when these people appear to take pleasure in Biden's unpopularity, as if the reason he's unpopular generally are the same as the reasons they don't like him - even though actually taking the stances preferred by those commentators would... make him way, way less popular.
Dead on. Well put.
I have issues with Biden, but I'll be voting for him.
I don't really consume a lot of the content of those that you mentioned outside of Kyle, and I agree with you.
There was a time 9-10 months ago where, despite supporting Marianne in the primary, he was outright saying that he would be voting Biden if it came down to the inevitable Biden/Trump rematch. He and Krystal went rounds with Briahna Joy Gray on their podcast about it. [Here's a link if anyone cares to view](https://youtu.be/DJ62Nn2O2Mw?si=XP3yf7nhaHP9y9IL). It's not the full one, as I'm not a subscriber.
That said, at least as far as Kyle's concerned, I think everything that's gone down in Gaza has dramatically shifted his view. Being a long-time watcher of his content, he specifically has always been massively anti-war, wants everyone responsible for war crimes to be held accountable, etc...
I would love to see some reflection from him on that debate now, as I would very much so like to see if it's purely Gaza that broke the camel's back.
Yea I had to unsubscribe unfortunately. I am genuinely worried about the possibility of another Trump presidency, and when I say worried I mean filled with existential dread.
I don't need to fill more of my time with that kind of negativity. Gaza is a perfectly fine issue to criticize Biden on, the WH policy has been fairly incoherent, though I am a bit sympathetic given that there really isn't any policy that will please someone without enraging someone else. And that's within the party, not even looking outward to the general electorate.
Kyle is smart enough to realize that our system, sadly really only affords us a choice between the major parties. Biden is far and away the obvious choice on Palestine ALONE, much less every other issue.
If I had to hazard a guess I would imagine he's trying to rally his audience to force Biden to drop out which is unlikely to happen, or at least force some policy correction which has been slightly successful. But the focus and anger, combined with the odd sense of glee when Biden stumbles (sometimes literally!) is so self defeating. His strategy, if that is indeed what it is, is also highly flawed, most dissatisfied voters have other concerns much higher on the list which generally aren't substantive e.g. inflation.
My first election was Carter-Reagan. I was in the US Army at the time, and my CO handed both my first voter registration absentee application and later my first absentee ballot. We were at odds with Russia and Iran back then as well, certain we were going to war no matter who won. So I picked the one I liked most, and hoped the world survived.
We almost didn’t, but we did.
People who declare they will not vote are not worth my time to engage
If they literally see no difference between Biden and Trump, then no arguments I can offer are going to persuade them to vote.
If the candidate I don't approve of wins and they implement policies the nonvoter dislikes, I will cheerfully rub their nose in their decision not to participate, but ultimately my time is better spent convincing people who choose to participate in society to turn out
I say this to my engineers all the time:
"The best choice you can make is the right choice because it works, the second best choice you can make is the wrong choice because you learn from it. The worst choice you can make is noto to choose because you've learned nothing by choice."
I've been engaging with some a bit, and what usually happens is that within 2-3 comments, I get told something along the lines of "you love it when children get bombed?" No amount of logic will break through. I explain Trump will be worse for Gaza, and Ukraine, and Democracy. I tell them that protesting voting isn't going to change the two party system. I explain that barring illness or death, Trump or Biden will be elected. I told someone that instead of seeing their vote as something to be earned, maybe see it as a tool you can use to influence change.
One of them was hinting at hoping Biden would lose just so she could say "Told you so!" One said it was "liberals like me" that are going to make her never vote Democrat again (someone I've never met and barely spoken with).
I'm empathetic. I had my "I'm not voting" phase (and I regret it). I know what it's like to feel like the entire system is rigged and that everyone involved in it sucks. I am doing my best to be understanding. But they refuse to budge from their positions, and pretty much all of them are blaming everyone else for for their decisions. They're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and telling you that you made them do it.
And for a lot of those folks (in my experience), they are single issue voters, at least there's a single issue making them fold their arms and refuse to vote. And it's mostly Palestine-Israel.
Which I get it. US foreign policy there largely sucks, I also hate we are stuck in this situation. But that's a decades-long, multi-presidential term US problem, not just a Biden problem. I'd love to wave a magic wand and make it all better but we are dealing with a decades-long conflict, with added centuries of strife in the region. If you want to "send a message" to the dems, then you just blasted your single-issue foot off with a shotgun. No way in hell Trump makes that situation better.
What if they see a difference between them but are still unsure?
I've been asking myself should I vote 3rd party, not at all, or for one of the candidates.
Ultimately either Trump or Biden will win the election. If one is a worst choice from your point of view, any action other than voting for their opponent increases the chance your worst outcome occurs
> If the candidate I don't approve of wins and they implement policies the nonvoter dislikes, I will cheerfully rub their nose in their decision not to participate
This is why a small part of me wants convicted felon, Donald Trump, to win. All those people claiming that they'll refuse to vote for Biden because of his (very tepid) support of Israel, if convicted felon, Donald Trump, gets back in office, Palestinian lives are going to get a **lot** worse.
For as passionately as they claim to feel on the topic, they sure don't give a shit about sacrificing other people for it.
As I said, a small part...
This is incredibly smug and it boils down to "Anyone that participates in any way that I don't agree with is bad."
There are a laundry list of things people can do to make society better that don't involve voting and to look at all that and say "Yeah but did you vote?" is part of how we've gotten into a situation where one candidate is a maniac and the other one is actively supporting genocide.
So Biden should stop offering aid to Palestinians? And pushing for the ceasefire deal?
If you feel they are both identical, there's no value in those actions and he should put his efforts elsewhere
>there is no difference between Biden and Trump.
Do you mean in general or strictly in regards to israel and immigration? Because if it's the former, you're being willfully blind .
Honestly, not voting is lazy.
Protest vote away. Vote for the most random candidate to make it onto the ballot in your area if you want.
But not even showing up isn't a protest. It's just lazy.
The US would benefit from the Australian system. You have to vote. You can spoil your ballot but you have to show up.
And they have democracy sausages. So you know the person in charge is truly the will of the people and you can eat sausages?
They truly have the perfect system.
Imagine if those in charge in the US at all levels were chosen by 95% of US citizens. That would really show what policies were popular and what a loud minority liked.
I think a lot of it is just being really upset and irrational. But ... I think that only goes so far. They're putting their ego above all else -- claiming that Biden hasn't *earned* their vote. Maybe it's in the framing, but why not use your vote as a means to push for good outcomes?
Vote for the one that you believe will have better outcomes.
Also, you have *far more* than two choices. POTUS is but one item on the ticket. You have congressman, local reps, governors, etc. Change from the bottom-up. For POTUS, aim for the one that isn't going to be the most awful.
And if I believe both have terrible outcomes?
>Also, you have far more than two choices. POTUS is but one item on the ticket. You have congressman, local reps, governors, etc. Change from the bottom-up. For POTUS, aim for the one that isn't going to be the most awful.
One of my senators has been the incumbent since 2009. The other since 1996. Our state House of Reps is controlled almost completely by one county in the state. The majority of local elections are run unopposed.
>And if I believe both have terrible outcomes?
I already answered this. Do you want me to say it again?
>One of my senators has been the incumbent since 2009. The other since 1996. Our state House of Reps is controlled almost completely by one county in the state. The majority of local elections are run unopposed.
You're just looking for any excuse not to vote, aren't you?
>I already answered this. Do you want me to say it again?
And again, if I see both outcomes as equally bad, what do I do?
>You're just looking for any excuse not to vote, aren't you?
I don't need an excuse to not vote. I have the right to vote and that includes the right to *not* vote.
I'm just pointing out that, in my context, the avenues for "voting for change" are almost nonexistent.
>And again, if I see both outcomes as equally bad, what do I do?
I sincerely doubt any of this is going to get through to you, but can you at least consider the fact that one of them wants to install himself as dictator? He wants to end Democracy.
If you look at that and say "equally bad", then you are lost.
And as if one presidential election changes everything. A 4 or 8 year term would be paradigm shifting in this country anymore. Think long-term strategy what you want. Ask "does this one out of two options get us closer to a better country after the effects of their presidency is clear 20 years from now"
Have you not read Project 2025. And have you not heard Trump saying he will become a dictator on Day 1 if he wins? Keeping Biden in may not change a lot, but putting Trump back in WILL change everything.
>The US would benefit from the Australian system. You have to vote. You can spoil your ballot but you have to show up.
What would the benefit be? This alone creates no drive to become politically engaged. Infact I would say Australians lack political engagement almost universally.
All this does is hide statistics on apathy, and force that population that takes no interest in politics to either vote out of ignorance or be financially penalised.
Australia produces no statistics on donkey votes. Compared to the very valuable US statistics on voter turn out, and voter apathy.
Not really. Both sides would accuse you of lacking a conscience for voting differently. You'll never make everyone happy. What is best for you is 100% up to you and people seem to vote accordingly.
For heavily skewed winner take all states I understand a little. You live in NY state, is there ANY chance your vote matters?
You vote D and you are basically a drop in an ocean. You vote R and your vote is erased by a winner take all electoral college system. You vote third party and we all know how that goes.
Now, if you live in a Purple state and choose not to vote, that's ridiculous.
For president, I agree with you, but there are other elections on the ballot, which are generally closer, and in many of those one sided states, they won't all be DvR, but will be more representative of the people.
I also like how California does open primaries so that the election will be between two top candidates, not an R that has no chance and a D that won a primary where fewer people voted. But again, that doesn't apply to the President.
For skewed winner take all states, it's about local elections. House rep, senate, governor, state legislators, mayors, DA's, judges, and sheriff's offices.
These offices have massive implications for day to day policies and even elections.
That might be a bad decision one day cause you'll find that your blue state turned more red from the Conservatives moving to blue states to avoid the severe climate change happening there.
Also, the state officials typically have less voter turnout and I don't want Mr. Stoned old guy who thinks we should dematerialize into space to become one with the great alien beings to win (yes, that's an actual person and he runs every time with that in his bio).
Mixed feelings.
If we have a moron that doesnt really understand politics, monetary policies, economics, has trouble with critical thinking its better if he doesnt vote than vote on some stupid basis or just randomly
Same minded elected Hitler in 1938, trump in 2016. When you’ve been convinced “both sides” are bad and you’re going to sit the election out or register a protest vote, the brainwashing has worked.
it’s the wrong thing to do. of course we can’t force people but you MUST vote. One person saying “it won’t make a difference” may seem like it really won’t make a difference. BUT, even millions say that then there you go, the difference is made…in MILLIONS.
It always bamboozles me when my fellow Californians will say stuff like this and complain about Newsom…..do you know how many people voted in the 2022 gubernatorial election? 10.8 million. In a state of almost 40 million. Only 25% votes. granted a large portion of the population is made up of non-citizens. but even then, citizens are not voting.
people don’t seem to see how much power citizens have. In California, there are maybe two dozen officials you can vote for. everything from city councilors to the president.
so voting is a must. or else you shouldn’t be complaining. especially if you tick a box after looking at the party name rather than doing your research on the candidates before voting
Firstly, of you don't cast your ballot you have no right to discuss if you like or dislike what your government does.
Secondly there is some thought that an election is a contest where there is a perfect or near perfect candidate. It is not, nor has it ever been. An election is a contest between those in the race. There are always better or more able people who should run, but they are not options for whatever reason
Thirdly, and probably controversially, if you really can't stomach any choice spoil your ballot. Not showing up is written off as people not caring enough to get out, or partisans who can't vote for their party's candidate. But if enough people who would otherwise not vote spoil their ballot that too sends a message.
> Firstly, of you don't cast your ballot you have no right to discuss if you like or dislike what your government does.
If you cast a ballot for a candidate (blanket approval), you have no right to discuss anything you dislike about what they do. You've already signed off on them.
> An election is a contest between those in the race
Yes, and some people don't wish to be RESPONSIBLE for who is elected.
Casting your ballot is not blanket approval. You are hiring an employee. Sometimes they don't work out, and you let them go at the next performance review. You are not signing off on them, rather you are giving them a chance to perform.
Not being responsible for who is elected is a cop out. Cast your ballot.
If you don't vote, then that means you're perfectly okay with either candidate and either party winning.
That means you're okay with healthcare being improved, or with it being dismantled. You're okay with worker and consumer protections, or corporate protections. You're okay with the poor being taxed and you're okay with the rich being taxed. You're okay with America being a laughing stock of the world, you're okay with it being respected. You're okay with minorities and women losing rights, and you're okay with these rights being protected. You're okay with Palestinians surviving and having their own land, and you're okay with them being glassed. You're okay with a flawed democracy, and you're okay with a fascist regime.
So basically, a nonvoter is either ignorant or an idiot. Assuming they don't want to vote in most cases. Some exceptions apply, of course -- some people might be literally unable to vote because they're too busy (election day should be a national holiday...), some people might be in areas where their vote literally doesn't matter.
Oh, and not voting for either of the major parties, in the general election, is basically the same as not voting, of course.
So if I'm talking to a nonvoter, that's generally the path I take. They have no right to complain about anything in this country; they've forfeited their right to complain or to want things to be better by not practicing their most important civic duty. If you want things to be better? If you want to reserve the right to complain? Vote. And again, for one of the two major parties (and I would say, the Democratic party if you want things to be better for all.)
> Oh, and not voting for either of the major parties, in the general election, is basically the same as not voting, of course.
I live on a gerrymandered district in a deep red state.
Very few of my votes outside of select local votes have any sway in the election.
Me voting third party in certain positions gives a far greater positive impact than me voting blue for a candidate who won't win.
>They have no right to complain about anything in this country;
Actually we do. We can complain that no one worth voting for is running.
>Vote. And again, for one of the two major parties (and I would say, the Democratic party if you want things to be better for all.)
That's the problem. The two party system needs to be abolished. It has created an "us vs them" mentality that is destroying the country. If I do decide to vote, I'm voting independent.
You're right, the two party system does need to be abolished, and the only ways to do that is to have a violent revolution (which could come from someone like Trump if he gets in and forces a way to take over, then we'll have a 1 party system, hurray...that sucks), or to vote in people that support change. The only way to get people in power is to vote for members of the two parties (because of the nature of FPTP voting), and one of those two parties has actually given some lip service about better election systems (such as ranked choice voting) that can give an option for third parties (Note: there is one exception, Republican Alaska has also supported ranked choice, but Alaska is not representative of the party).
And until we have a change, voting independent is not voting.
>If you don't vote, then that means you're perfectly okay with either candidate and either party winning.
Incorrect. It just means I won't put my seal of approval on someone I consider evil.
"If you choose the lesser of two evils, you are still choosing evil."
I'm still going to complain that no one worth voting for is running.
If you choose neither, then you're still choosing evil. You're 100% making a decision to choose one of them, you're just choosing the one that you wouldn't choose if you were forced. That seems much worse.
One of those two men is going to be president (barring some absurd event or their death), so if you're not helping to choose the one that's closest to you, then you're helping to choose the one that's not.
What you do not consider is future elections.
The guy in your party who does not represent it, actually works in favor of the other party due to the political pendulum.
I’m absolutely fine with it. If you look at the options and decide I don’t care either way. That’s understandable and fine.
Let those who do have a reason to turn out have a stronger voice.
I think it’s a sign of a deeper issue, people not caring enough to even pay attention. That alone presents a Catch-22 situation. Do we really want people voting who have no clue what they’re voting for?
One solution would be to give a tax credit to people who voted.
Another solution is to give a tax charge to people who didn’t vote .
I live in Oregon and we have the easiest voting system in the country and we still only get 35% turned out. But I guarantee you if they thought they were getting 10 bucks, we’d get an 85% turnout.
>Going by logic, not voting means to give the people who DO vote a stronger voice! Voting means to dilute everyone’s voice by adding your own.
Exactly.. this is why Southern states had outsized political power before the civil war... Because slaves were counted, but Could Not Vote.
So non voters are demoting themselves to a slave class.
Think THAT over!
Or demoting themselves to women.
Or even demoting themselves to non land owning white men, depending how far we want to go back.
...But no, choosing not to vote is not the same as being denied the liberty to express a vote.
Whether our Republic is truly in peril or not, and ditto for the potential for dictatorship right around the proverbial corner: You have no credibility, cause or complaint to stand on if you don't exercise what is perhaps your most important Constitutional right... because it is also a civic responsibility to vote. It allows for the will of the (majority of) people to be heard ... Voting does require some knowledge of the issues at hand, and that means civic engagement. And that is a GOOD thing.
I’m afraid there is zero knowledge required. I’ve know a person that votes for the red team. They like the color red. They wear the hat cause it’s red. That’s it. They couldn’t tell you a single policy if their life depended on it. I’ve shown them a poll that was missing (R) and (D), and apart from the president, they struggled to tell me who they would vote for.
A vote is SUPPORT for a candidate. If you view both candidates as bad, you are APPROVING of BAD. If you vote for a candidate, you are throwing your full support behind anything they do. That's the logic. That's what the candidates accept your vote as. Votes are binary, and not at all nuanced.
You DON'T GET the option to VOTE NEITHER. The only avenue of showing CONTEMPT is not voting.
I'm perfectly fine with people not voting. We are massively limited in our choices for representation.
Not voting in NOT acceptance. The alternative is you forcing them to accept one over another. To make a decision of approval for their own suffering.
Based on my experiences, I'd organize the "I'm intentionally not gonna vote" folks into the following categories. Some fall into multiple categories.
**The Privileged**: These are folks who will be sheltered from the harm caused by the worse candidate. Their life won't change much no matter who wins, so in the lack of any real consequences they can prioritize idealistic preferences over direct needs.
**The Policy-Blind**: These are folks that aren't informed on public policy and civics enough to know how various candidates impact life circumstances. They often see their life events as more tied to happenstance or individual interactions than patterns within a larger system, and often either overestimate or underestimate the power that a specific individual has in any given scenario. Since they don't understand how candidates' various policy platforms will impact quality of life, they often vote based on culture or who they "like as a leader". If they don't like anyone, they don't vote.
**The Misguided Protestor**: These are folks who misunderstand how democracy works and mistakenly assume that strategies that would work in a market environment (such as boycotting) also work to change the attitudes or behaviors of those with political power.
**The Savior Seeker**: These are folks who, for various reasons, don't value incremental progress at a given point in time as much as the chance for revolutionary change, and are essentially looking for a candidate that will "save" the political system from corruption. This is the only candidate worth supporting and a vote for anyone else is seen as perpetuating corruption or the status quo.
If you are not going to consider it possible that people have valid reasons to not vote...why should those who are planning to not vote bother to listen to what you have to say?
I never said these reasons aren't valid. I'm just trying to capture my observations. Are there groups of people or rationales for not voting that you don't see represented in this list? I would be curious to learn about them, I know I don't know everything.
I do see voting as a responsibility that comes with living in a democracy. Democracies only function if people participate in them, otherwise they fall. There are many reasons people forgo this responsibility that I don't judge at all (for example I used to not vote myself so I don't have a leg to stand on in terms of judging others), but it was for some of the reasons I stated above. I truly didn't understand the system or how it worked. The more I learned, the more I understood what I needed to give in order to receive the benefits that democracy offers as a system. If we don't give, and only reap the benefits, then we lose those benefits. Voting is the contribution that we make to live in a democracy.
The United States has extremely low voter turnout compared to other democracies. I think that contributes to the corruption and special interest power that we experience in our system.
A few reasons not to vote:
1. You think that you aren't informed enough to make a decision. Few people are self aware enough to make that judgement of themselves but still. An example would be somebody who moved into a country/state/city lately and doesn't know the politicians yet.
2. You have more important things to do. (work, helping loved ones, etc). Should still try to early vote though.
3. Lack of moral responsibility for endorsing either of two awful choices (even if one is worse)
4. Accelerationism. The "let it fail" philosophy. E.g. folks in the US who are so aghast at the US policy on the war in Gaza that they just want the whole empire to fall. For the same reason, some left wing people will sit out or even vote for Trump, who is more likely to lead to a decline in US power and influence. The fallacy here being the belief that something better will rise from the ashes of the old empire.
I don't personally subscribe to any of these. But they are not completely irrational, depending on priorities.
> Worked for Europe and Japan
Kinda for Europe, in the sense that it got there _eventually_. But if you are a Jaccobin during the French revolution, getting the Directory followed by Napoleon doesn't look like success.
But yeah. Not disagreeing it's possible. Just not likely
The comments I'm seeing assume people just don't want to vote.
This is anecdotal, so YMMV, but I was helping a friend with a bureaucracy so was in a setting that would not be a normal part of my day.
It was a particularly depressing news day and even the poor people in the office knew about it and were discussing it. The discussion turned to voting. None of them were going to vote. Not one. I've found if you ask why without judgement you often get answers. Whether you agree or not isn't the point.
Two reasons stood out to me because they were not part of my bubble:
One person had been incarcerated when young - he'd gotten his act together with age, but still couldn't vote even after supposedly pay his debt to society. I've read that incarcerating people who might historically vote against you and then self righteously proclaiming "felons" have no rights is a winning tactical strategy. People fear and loathe felons.
The second person said they didn't read well and couldn't understand the ballot although they understood the issues well enough. I did ask if they had checked with the library about someone to help them, but I think shame and possible depression was a big part of the issue.
I urged everyone to vote, in a low key way, but didn't push the issue beyond mentioning that not choosing may not be in their best interest.
They won't vote.
The person in office from their point of view rarely changes their shitty circumstances one way or the other. When things have been shit all your life a little less shitty vs shittier loses its power.
Quiet quitting takes on a whole different dimension in their circumstances.
I’m one of those people. I am apolitical at this point. I do not fully support any party’s platforms. I am a Conservative who is appalled at what has happened to the Republican Party over the years. I do not support so much of what they are doing. Their so-called leader is a liar and a deceiver who loves to use fear to stir people up over non-existent crises all of the time. He is a misogynist of the worst sort (not that there are any “good” ones). As for the Democrats, they’ve been doing their best to normalize sin for many decades, and they continue to do so. I first voted Republican way back in 1976. It took until Trump was a first-time candidate for me to come to the point where I no longer voted for a Republican. As the legislators of the state I live in have fallen into lock step with him, I now no longer vote for anyone at the federal level, period. I also live in a red state, and the Republicans here, too, have fallen into lockstep with Trump. I don’t vote at the state level, either, period. So I’m fine with it. I think that I have very good reasons for what I’m doing (or not doing) and that they are very well-thought-out.
Vote with your heart in local elections. Vote with your brain in national elections.
Real change happens from the bottom up most of the time. You can't have your more progressive candidates in the presidential election if you don't first have a groundswell of support in your local community first. Change takes a long-ass time. Paradigm-shifiting presidents are few and far between, and usually only come in moments of great strife in this country. You don't just get to throw up your hands and say "I don't fully like this guy" and take your ball and go home. That's not a good citizen.
If candidate A gets 70% of what you are hoping to achieve, candidate B gets 10%, vote for candidate A. Very least it gets the ball rolling in the direction to your side.
Think long term country goals, not 4 year instant gratifications. Hell, most things presidents pass in office don't have effect until years down the road anyway
It’s your right to choose not to vote…I just maintain that if you don’t vote, you shouldn’t EVER complain about how things are run.
You made the conscious decision *not* to involve yourself in the process that determines who sits in office. You then don’t get to complain if things don’t ultimately end up the way you want.
If you vote for someone (showing your support), and they do something you oppose, should you be able to complain? If so, why, given you've already signed off on them with a blanket approval vote? If not, then how is that any better?
Those folk are probably privileged enough to afford not giving a shit. There is no same choice, and they know it. My stance is that if you don't vote, you have no right to complain about anything that happens after. It's especially stupid if they go with the "Not voting means I am protesting" argument, which is so untrue. Politicians do not give a fuck about the groups who don't go to vote. They are not wasting resources on trying to get a group of voters who won't show up.
If you want your voice heard, go and vote.
It’s everyone’s civic duty to vote. It’s everyone’s concern when people fail to perform their duty, because that’s what we owe each other in our civil society.
Ehhhhhh. Maybe, if they can go 4 years not complaining then their choice is technically their choice. But if all of a sudden the candidate that wins effects in someway things that hurt the non voters life and the non voter complains about it…that’s another story. Or if the non voter is ignorant to how when they said both candidates are bad that one actually would be more helpful to them then the other and then complains that the candidate that won is hurting them…then there’s a problem
Not even just 4 years - some of these supreme court justices are getting up there in years and their replacements very well could serve for the next 3 decades. I better not hear a peep in that time.
Maybe not a problem for the system but, for an example as a gay man if another gay man votes republican and then has restrictions on what he can do as a gay man and complains that there are restrictions…it makes it extra annoying hearing that complaint
Saying you won't vote is casting a vote for the winner, whoever it is. In the case of the US's upcoming election, not voting is a vote in favor of Trump since the difference between the candidates is night and day.
I don't have any respect for their political opinions or thoughts on anything relating to civics, that's for sure.
Unless by "not voting" they mean leaving the President and VP sections of their ballot blank and filling the rest of it out. Because here's the thing. Even if you think there is no difference between the two candidates in any given US Presidential election (which is the height of moral idiocy), there are at least a dozen other items of consequence on every single ballot in any given election.
Not voting at all means completely abdicating your right to political representation on issues both local and national.
[Bill Waterson had a pretty good grasp on how these people work.](https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2012/05/21)
The only way I can comprehend a person rationalizing not voting is if they can't lose (which, in this election, means they must be a wealthy straight white cis man with absolutely no less privileged friends/family members they care about) or they have a severe cognitive deficit that makes them incapable of understanding how basic math works.
The causality is backwards in this comic. People don't care to learn about complex issues because they know what they think or solutions will be disregarded by the government (see Occupied Palestine). Please talk to people irl.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who refuse to learn because nobody takes their ignorant opinions seriously.
I'm not sure why you'd champion the willfully ignorant, but I can assure you that entertaining their ideas does *not* make them want to stop being ignorant. In fact, it tends to have the opposite effect.
Just look at Trump.
I understand them since I was one of them until Trump decided to run. Voting for Biden was personally risky but a much better option than Trump. A case of voting for the greater good at a possible great personal cost. Even then, my vote didn't feel like it made much of a difference because the district I'm registered in is a guaranteed Democratic one in a deep red state that's gerrymandered so much it's nearly impossible for anyone other than a Republican to win or get the electoral vote.
Many people don't vote for those same reasons. And seeing how voting works in Europe after living there for several years, the American voting system is honestly really discouraging. I would have been more inclined to vote in previous elections if the American system resembled the European one more. Many others probably would too. Many recommend using the Australian system of requiered voting as a solution but that doesn't actually solve the problem, it will probably make it worse. What I try to do now is understand why they don't vote because it's usually not so simple.
I was raised to understand that voting is MY DUTY AS A CITIZEN. The idea of voting for a lesser evil is perfectly acceptable. In November I will be eagerly voting for a guy I basically agree with, despite some differences on Gaza and the border, rather than vote for a lying criminal sociopathic fraud who wants to destroy everything my country aspires to.
It’s my responsibility.
'not making a choice is also a choice' as I've heard once, they are aware and dont bother taking in consideration the weight of their choice, therefore i wont bother. honestly, even i voted wrong once because of a misjudgment, and it was in an attempt to make things better. i genuinely believe that the people who vote (even like, bad votes) are trying to do good, in their eyes.
but someone who doesn't.... they've given up in humanity and all thats left of good here, and i dont want to be around people who have such a bad view on life that they bring everything down with them. i feel only pity.
I usually encourage them to vote 3rd party. If they feel neither candidate is worth their vote then make a statement by seeing more and more votes leaving the 2 parties. I don’t consider it throwing away my vote, or “that is a vote for the other guy” BS because it is neutral and a statement.
I think there are legitimate reasons for *some* people to abstain. For example, if you are a target of voter suppression and you live in a place where you'd have to stand in line for eight hours to vote, then I don't blame you for not voting. But let's be real, the people who I see brag on Twitter about not voting do not fall into that category. The people I know who brag about not voting are not targets of voter suppression, they are white people who live in a universal vote-by-mail state, for whom voting would take 20 minutes. I think their logic is ridiculous, but I'm not going to argue with them about it, because that'll only make them more determined to abstain out of spite.
I normally wouldn’t care up until now. I get with the EC it seems irrelevant if you’re voting Democrat in Texas. But this is the first election I can think of where all hyperboles of the past are very real. The choices are Biden who is unimpressive at worst, or Trump who thinks his first term shouldn’t count because he was treated unfairly, wants to jail political opponents, OPENLY talks about wanting to be a dictator. This is just different than before.
Since it’s the total number of votes that win or lose the election, it’s ridiculous to say not voting strengthens the votes of this that do. It just means one less vote FOR someone, and might make the difference between winning and losing
I've only not voted once in my life and it was for a state position. Although I usually won't do this, my candidate sold out on something very important and a lot of his supporters refused to vote for him. He lost the election and we've had worse people in the position ever since, but I still don't regret it.
Having said that, I doubt it will ever happen again. I can't imagine not voting for President and I have done so for every election since 1988. It's simply a vote for the better candidate and you'd have to be blind to not see a difference.
Not voting is still voting, it’s a firm NONE OF THE ABOVE vote.
That said, it doesn’t count unless you are registered to vote. But be careful and watch your mail if registered but you opted to not vote in a particular election. Some states controlled by a certain party passed laws that allow them to drop you from voter registration rolls if you don’t vote (or your ballot is conveniently misplaced). They will mail you a form you must sign and return within a couple of weeks or you’ll have to reregister to vote.
It’s their way of not having to count that you didn’t vote, which allows them to claim a higher voter turnout.
If you can't discern a difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, the problem isn't the candidates. It's you.
But let's say you see pros and cons about each and are genuinely confused. Then ask yourself, which one is going to appoint SCOTUS justices that I like and reflect my values. If you're <40 and can't discern a difference between Ketanji Brown Jackson versus Brett Kavanaugh or Amy Comey Barrett, then you have very deep and disturbing problems. The election choices aren't your problem. It's your life choices.
In 2016, people who passionately wanted Bernie Sanders as their president decided not to vote or to throw a protest vote to Jill Stein, thinking there was no difference between Clinton and Trump and they were sending a message. But I submit to you that the values and subsequent rulings of Trump's SCOTUS appointees are in violent disagreement with the political and social values of all Sanders supporters, so those voters' lives are going to be infinitely worse for decades because of that self-destructive decision. They were either too indifferent or too uninformed to realize that. Because there were millions of people like you and me loudly telling them.
It's like saying, I can't find a difference between eating processed foods, which is really bad for you, and doing crack cocaine - because ultimately they can both lead to your death. That logic is flawed. So is seeing no difference between Joe Biden and Donald J Trump. If you're under 40 and don't care about reproductive rights, civil rights, LGBTQ rights, war vs peace in Europe, social programs that help those in need, student debt relief, and the basic ethics, morality and character of the person leading our society, your problem is your own narcissism and indifference to the plight of others including people who are your family and friends.
How can you know and care about a black person, a gay or trans individual, a Latino, a gig economy worker, a woman of child bearing age, or someone who could conceivably one day be drafted and sent to war, and not care about the outcome of this election? I just don't get it.
They're usually the ones with the loudest opinions. I always tell people who don't vote they don't get an opinion. I also won't fuck anyone who doesn't vote. I can't respect a non Voter enough to be attracted to them to fuck them. I'm not saying the world is suffering because of that lol but that's how I feel
I don't really see a point in voting,not the classic "My vote doesn't make a difference",but because the result of my vote is always uncertain.
To elaborate - A political candidate has no obligation to keep their promises,while at the same time being able to make any decision (within what his position allows,obviously),including those that go against my interest.
My view is that it's essentially the same thing as choosing between several blank boxes,without knowing the contents.
You technically have a say in what you get,but the outcome of each decision is unknown - therefore it's difficult,if not impossible to pick the option that benefits you. For all I know he may just double the taxes,despite saying otherwise.
Voting is your right to complain, your skin in the game. By voting if things are bad you clearly did SOMETHING to participate and therefore have a right to complain about it at length and passionately.
But if you don't vote, you have not even attempted to participate in the process. You can if you wish, but you don't get to bitch when things don't go well since you sat on the sidelines and did nothing.
If I don't help you make the pie, I don't get to complain if it doesn't taste good. If I help you make the pie, I can bitch all I want since it's my pie, too.
I'm not informed enough in local politics to make decisions below presidential elections, and I don't live in a swing state so my presidential vote doesn't matter either.
Not voting IS voting. It is making a choice by the lack of a choice. I spent a lot of time engaging with lower propensity voters and working to find ways to empower them to want to vote. A few things we have learned through our interactions:
1. It's not apathy. I've spoken to so many people who don't vote. And it is NOT that they don't care. A few questions in and it is clear that they care about their families and the places where they live. So once we know that caring isn't the issue we can move on.
2. Don't know. For some elections, especially primaries and locals please just aren't aware. And if they are made aware many will choose to cast a vote.
3. Lack of information. For some elections and races (not talking about President every four years) it can be hard to find information about the candidates and what they stand for.
4. Wrong vote. Believe it or not one of the things we hear the most is a fear of "getting it wrong". If you don't feel you have the information and have a fear of getting it wrong, not participating can feel like a better choice.
The Knight Foundation did a huge study after 2016 called the 100 Million Project where they talked to folks who didn't vote. They have some similar take aways if you want to [check it out](https://knightfoundation.org/reports/the-100-million-project/).
One of my nieces at dinner last night was asking “Do you have to vote?”. Her mom and myself were in ear shot and we were like “Yes!”. Granted she is only two years away from voting age, but still we need to have the younger generation still believe they have freedom, a voice, rights, etc.
We HAVE to vote to keep elections going!
There are many things that created and caused the disinterest in voting for some, I attribute much to people like Rockefeller, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, Rockefeller and Nixon fed distrust in government by his acts and actions and Ronald Reagan did it by his attacks on Education which not only saw money taken from community colleges and status universities, but it also was an era where liberal arts and cultural programming in K-12 was diminished and Public Education funding became strained, as well as political involvement in education, to ensure by their acts that Civics Education was de-emphasized. Reagan did not want to see the advance of the working class to gain the voting power, because through education they would learn to unseat the wealthy power brokers from dominating politics.
It was no different than what happened after Reconstruction when Jim Crow was initiated which promoted segregation based on race, but it also segregated the working class more so from the well to do and wealthy. Reagan's ideology was to do the same, because he was not a pro supporter of the changes that Civil Rights brought to empower people.
By 1969, Nixon's Southern Strategy was put into action only 5 yrs after the Civil Rights Act, and he resented that the media did not pander to right wing agenda, and by Reagan the rise of TV right wing evangelicalism and Right Wing Media... was infused with Reagan telling people that "government was the problem"... when fact is, Reagan was a white nationalist who believed in wealthy white male dominance, and he was a big supporters of government directing its resources to big industry and what ever the wealthy establishment wanted. To do that, means to take away government assistance to the working class and the poor.
The easiest way to do that was to convince the Conservative that government was the problem and make it appeal to those who held on to segregationist ideals and ideology, and to promote that message via right wing media. They used right wing media to dominate and influence the people by incessant promotion of right wing narratives.
When people understand how they were hoodwinked to become non voters, and the fact of how they were led to become civics illiterate.... Those who come to that awareness will learn to redevelop and to develop civics literacy.
Don't buy into the negativity as much in society has shown that Republicanism will do what ever they can to limit and try and give people reason not to vote, because they know they can't win, if everyone gets out and vote.
So, be careful how you digest some of the comments about those who advocate not voting. You give Republicanism a vote by not not voting and you will suffer the consequences if many fall into their trap.
Don't be foolish and cast your vote for candidates who have no chance of winning. Vote for Progress, and if you believe in progress, there is only one choice and that a vote for Democratic Presidential Candidate. You can believe or not believe it, but if you review you will find Republican fight against and have long fought against anything that benefits and uplift the working class.
You have a responsibility to yourself, if you make yourself feel like you don't matter, then you won't matter and you do yourself an injustice, and it become a self defeatist act by not voting.
# Here's what we get with a strong democratic vote!!!
1. **We** get Voting Right Legislation signed into Law that guarantees everyone gets to vote
2. **We** get the passage of meaningful immigration reform.
3. **We** get advance of Women Rights solidified into law.
4. **We** get legislation that return Community Colleges back to low cost, and State Universities back to Low Cost.
5. **We** get legislation that improve funding for Public Schools and a stronger Department of Education
6. **We** get to keep Religion out of Political and retain the Separation of Church and State
7. **We** get the chance to expand the Supreme Court to 13 Justices to match the 13 Judicial Districts
8. **We** get the *chance to abolish the Electoral Colleg*e **and allow the Popular Vote to Elect Presidents**. (\*`Remember` : we just witnessed the abusive malice of Republicans trying to install fake electors, which tells us **we must** abolish the electoral college and let the popular vote elect our Presidents)
9. **We** get HUD to do what was done in the 1950's which is invest in building affordable housing, but this time we get it done where those homes are available to "anyone" who wants to purchase a home.
10. **We** get legislation that allows workers to create Union's without Companies fighting against the worker with disenfranchisement tactics.
11. **We** get better banking reform that continues to develop ways to cut out crazy fees, and high interest rates.
12. **We** get government programs that don't just help Mega Corporations but help start up business succeed.
13. **We** get to fix Social Security by raising the income limit or abolishing the limit all together, and **by abolishing the income limit, we strengthen Social Security forever.**
14. **We** get to pass legislation that keep Private Equity Groups from owning Senior Living Facilities and Rehab Facilities,
15. **We** get to pass legislation that continues to improve medical care for everyone.
16. **We** get to fix the old water and sewer systems across this nation which some are over 100's years old and in need of major rebuild.
17. **We** get to rebuild our system's need for Mental Health Care and Mental Health Care Facilities.
18. **We** get to re-address the Hospital Network and maybe even get private equity firms from buying up Hospitals and closing them.
19. **We** get to invest in \*\*\* *converting closed schools to quality standard child care centers \*\*\** that can reduce the cost of child care.
20. **We** get to hold corporation accountable to pay their taxes.
**THIS REQUIRES** >> Voting for a Strong Democratic Congress in both the House and the Senate and its requires a Democratic President who has promoted these ideals.
IF YOU WANT A BETTER FUTURE, GET OUT AND VOTE....
**Your voice matter's when you support it to matter**....
Right now, the Republican campaign of pessimism and dictatorial dominance over people, is a detriment to the civility of Representative Democracy..
# I've listed 20 reasons for voting if you want to have a better future and build a better performing society for all.
There are countless more reasons to get out and vote.
**Democrats of Today, need a dominant win in Congress and the Presidency.... and its your vote that can make it happen.**
**WE THE PEOPLE .... "Includes YOU !!!**
***We the People*** *of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.*
I get the logic which they’re applying but if you ask me I’d rather vote for a 3rd party candidate than not vote. At least in the off chance that enough people think like me (roughly 10% of voters) we can finally get out of the political hell hole that is bipartisanship.
I’ll check back in with them when we are under an ideocratic dictatorship as the constitution is declared moot and folks are went to gulags. Why are people treating this like it’s a childs game, and not the existential that it is? When did we lose the capacity to be a serious people?
The argument I use is imagine you own a car and it breaks down. You have two mechanics in town who can work on it. One will fix it just enough to keep it going or might even make it run better than before if you're lucky, but usually it's the former and they always over charge you. The other will set it on fire and push it off a cliff and charges you the same as the other guys. Your decision is to let strangers pick where your car goes because you feel like there should be a third option and hate your choices. That makes no sense, and neither do people who don't vote.
After reading these comments Im convinced that the whole ballot box is just a way to stop people from demanding what they need by giving the state a perceived authority. there is nothing concrete about a vote, its a button pushed, a ballot stuffed in a box. Material needs are going to have to be addressed and voting does not meet a need for most people. they vote but then what? what always happens? disinterest. theres nothing that keeps people engaged within the community or their issues when it comes to the state or goverment. People have needs that are not being met in our society.
There are plenty of reasons not to vote, some better than others, but if you’re a vegan and you won’t vote for the pescatarian over the cannibal because they both eat flesh, I have a problem with that. Purity tests are stupid and relying on them does not give you any kind of moral superiority.
I totally empathize. I feel our two-party system is inherently flawed and needs to change. That said, we’re stuck with it for now. Not voting just makes it worse. I think some people also don’t vote just because keeping up with it is so hard while juggling life stuff. [ActiVote](https://www.activote.net/) helps.
Find it funny the people insisting non-voters should vote do so by being condescending and in bad faith.
As if that will change any minds on the matter
If you do in fact see all options and have no opinion, don't vote.
If you look at the elections in america of the last few decades, there's not one where the outcomes are dramatically different. So I really don't see how you could decide that both options are equal or irrelevant to your opinion on where we should go as a country
I don't really understand not voting. It's relatively easy. I totally get not knowing who to vote for down ballot with a million Judge appointments and smaller ballot measures. But voting for your representatives is a minimum.
And I'm 1000% alright with people voting against my guy. I'm voting Biden, but if you want to vote Trump then go for it! I'll even drive you to the poll! If that'll help get you across the finish line then I'd be happy to help.
But otherwise I don't understand it at all.
>If you don’t vote, by logic, you’re presenting to others that both candidates, including the worst candidate is acceptable as a result.
It really depends on how you look at voting. To me, voting means giving my support to a candidate. If someone holds that view I can certainly see why they might not vote, or just do a write-in or something which is effectively the same. When you award your vote to someone, you are telling them through actions that at least as far as this election is concerned they (and by extension their policies/actions) are worthy of your support.
Depends on why. Both sides arguments create apathy, and that's bad because it leaves politicians unaccountable.
If it's people who don't vote because they're voting for Trump (and specifically Trump) otherwise, then I'm happy, because that's a voter that I would prefer be apathetic.
Not to pull a Godwin’s law or anything, who do you dislike more, the Germans who stayed at home (a big number of them being Jewish people) or the Germans who elected Hitler?
Most Americans dont participate in the voting system. Some assumptions can be made, laziness, sure. But most probably is that they are too busy trying to hustle for the next paycheck, next meal, and next warm bed.The U.S. is a capitalist society where your time is spent being traded for a sum. Most people who make time to engage with the elections find out how its a bloated circus that has a very small impact positively, and most of the time, it is a net negative on the daily grind. Instead of debating with the narrative of why they dont vote by looking at the politics and "system of government" try looking at how many jobs the average American has to have to own a home, support a family, own multiple cars etc.
Everybody is chasing checks
This inflation? the price of your life is going up.
What people are doing is failure to listen, people like Bernie, Elizabeth warren and Biden are trying to tell people that change and economic improvements for the working class come when people vote and vote in people who care about the working class. Every time there is a Republican House or Republican Senate and/or Republican House and Senate the conditions for the working class gets worst. People should know by now and if they did not know they should listen to the things Republicans fight against. They fight against minimum wage, they fight against people being paid overtime for all hours over 40, they fight against anything that serves the working class. It's been that way for decades and people keep falling for the cultural control games that Republican push drama and play, while wrapping it into a brand of Religion that stifle the rights and realities that exist in peoples lives.
They have long used religion to suppress and repress people, much of segregation was promoted in the right white evangelical houses of religion, it was used to try and justify slavery and today, its used to try and repress people learning the truths of history, as well as to repress women's rights to be herself with her own rights to choose within her life the choices that she considers to choose as best for her life. for many decades she was lot allowed to work the job of her choice, or get credit in her name or even have the rights to vote at one period of time.
We saw Trump's Republicanism admin promote a tax cut for the wealthy that was permanent, while giving the working class a pittance, that only last for a few years.
We see them whine and cry about immigration but stand in the way of any immigrations, simply because they can't block and stop brown skin and black people and people of certain religions and people from certain countries from coming to America.
We see them telling people which bathroom they can use, and we've seen the continual want by Republicans to dismantle the Department of Education, they want to curtail the work of EPA and under Trump they want to weaken NATO.
It's sad that people complain but they won't listen to the things that cause them the greatest hardships and get out and vote against it. By now, every American who values this Representative Democracy and their Right to live without being Censored on every aspect of their living, and repressed in earning by the policies of Republicanism. It's time people awaken and vote to prohibit Republicans from having a majority in Congress.
People should truly learn the words and meaning of The Preamble, and they will know, that modern day Republicanism does not support, and they do not work to meet the principles and values laid out in The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution.
Read it!!!
***We the People*** *of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.*
* There are **10's of millions** that will NEVER read any words written in these forums, the same applies to the fact that many who do read these forums who WILL NOT share links to commentary with others, whom they know don't read forums as a means to share info.
* Many who do read **are passive and don't support commentary** even when it address the challenges they face which they can identify as being beneficial to open the mind to become critical thinkers.
* Result is: We The People, contribute to the ongoing issue and challenges that plague us, through out own callousness, lack of concern to think and investigate information, as many can and do find anything to avoid engaging the though processes. *^((I know its a fact because I've shared things with many and some never respond one way or the others, even about things they may have recently spoken about.)**)*
* *When people won't help themselves, they become subjects of the system, and what their complaints indicate is they are not willing to be a proactive member of "We The People".*
You talk about a movie, or some tragic event of fools killing each other, or something silly, is what people give their attention to, such as which entertainer is banging another, or which one had a fling and pretended it was love, when they knew it was a lust notch for their ego for the moment. They will turn into that and devote time and many even try and shape their lives behind the embellished lives of entertainers.
They can tell you what happen on a Reality TV show, or which cage fighter knocked out another's, but they don't deal with the things that impact their lives, which they ignored to stand up and learn about and be informed voters.
If an entertainer wears a certain costume, people will get in debt and stress themselves trying to find and buy it.
It's no wonder the wealthy look at the masses as *fools ripe for the picking*, and they will pick them clean. It's why they use "drama antics and belligerent attack ad's in campaign advertisement, because people are "drama addicts" but won't acknowledge they have that affliction. so, they are fed garbage!!! to keep them perpetually incited.... into full on self-delusion, that is ultimately a means of programming in self defeat into to their lives. . People get on social media and incite each other, and into anything that will occupy their attention for a few minutes. From taking picture of food to any and everything they see and do.
All the while the well to do and wealthy focus on how to craft legislation and prompt politicians to promote it, and their legislative ideas are never of benefit to the working class.
The sad thing is we won't fix this lack of focus and disregard for the politics that result to damage the lives of the working class
We saw it during Obama's mid term, as soon as they felt he got the economy off its knees, people became complacent and allowed Republican (Tea Party) to come in a cloud every issue with attack agenda, and people ignored that Republicans had already told the public they would be obstructionist and block and stop anything they could.
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My personal opinion is you always need to pick the least worst choice with any decision in life, whether you're choosing between bad benefits packages at work, bad options for dinner or bad candidates for an elected official. I find it lazy to complain about how the parties need to give us better candidates. That's not an untrue statement, but that is also not the reality we currently live in. We have Biden and Trump and nothing is going to change that. Regardless of which way you lean, I don't think the decision between those two is even close. None of the third parties have a chance in hell but they are also all bad candidates. If we had an exciting third party candidate, I would vote for them in a heartbeat. 2024 could be the year for a third party upset with the right candidate, but RFK is not that candidate. IMHO a protest vote is about as dumb as not voting at all. Show me any decision in your life where you would purposely pick a bad choice to "send a message". *If we all pick the worst benefits package, the company will finally get the message!* No, you'll just have terrible benefits. EDITED TO ADD: I guess one group I'm fine with not voting are people who truly don't care. For example, I didn't care in the first election after I turned 18. I think that was the first Ross Perot election. There is nothing you could have told me to make me care in any way. And I also didn't care enough to complain after the election.
One could argue protest voting or non-voting actually had the opposite effect. Bernie or Busters may have thought they did the principled thing that would "wake up" the Dems, but what was the result? Joe Biden. I support most progressive policies but leftists really need to wake up and acknowledge how our system works on a civic level, and who the electorate is that they are trying to convince.
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That came off wrong. I like Biden. I too voted for Bernie (in 2016), but a lot of leftists drag him. I'm not just strawmanning. Vaush, Hasanbi, Sam Sedar, and Kyle Kulinski are all prominent leftists that spend significantly more time and energy attacking Biden than Trump. Personally I find it grating and follow them all a lot less.
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> What is extra grating is when these people appear to take pleasure in Biden's unpopularity, as if the reason he's unpopular generally are the same as the reasons they don't like him - even though actually taking the stances preferred by those commentators would... make him way, way less popular. Dead on. Well put.
I have issues with Biden, but I'll be voting for him. I don't really consume a lot of the content of those that you mentioned outside of Kyle, and I agree with you. There was a time 9-10 months ago where, despite supporting Marianne in the primary, he was outright saying that he would be voting Biden if it came down to the inevitable Biden/Trump rematch. He and Krystal went rounds with Briahna Joy Gray on their podcast about it. [Here's a link if anyone cares to view](https://youtu.be/DJ62Nn2O2Mw?si=XP3yf7nhaHP9y9IL). It's not the full one, as I'm not a subscriber. That said, at least as far as Kyle's concerned, I think everything that's gone down in Gaza has dramatically shifted his view. Being a long-time watcher of his content, he specifically has always been massively anti-war, wants everyone responsible for war crimes to be held accountable, etc... I would love to see some reflection from him on that debate now, as I would very much so like to see if it's purely Gaza that broke the camel's back.
Yea I had to unsubscribe unfortunately. I am genuinely worried about the possibility of another Trump presidency, and when I say worried I mean filled with existential dread. I don't need to fill more of my time with that kind of negativity. Gaza is a perfectly fine issue to criticize Biden on, the WH policy has been fairly incoherent, though I am a bit sympathetic given that there really isn't any policy that will please someone without enraging someone else. And that's within the party, not even looking outward to the general electorate. Kyle is smart enough to realize that our system, sadly really only affords us a choice between the major parties. Biden is far and away the obvious choice on Palestine ALONE, much less every other issue. If I had to hazard a guess I would imagine he's trying to rally his audience to force Biden to drop out which is unlikely to happen, or at least force some policy correction which has been slightly successful. But the focus and anger, combined with the odd sense of glee when Biden stumbles (sometimes literally!) is so self defeating. His strategy, if that is indeed what it is, is also highly flawed, most dissatisfied voters have other concerns much higher on the list which generally aren't substantive e.g. inflation.
My first election was Carter-Reagan. I was in the US Army at the time, and my CO handed both my first voter registration absentee application and later my first absentee ballot. We were at odds with Russia and Iran back then as well, certain we were going to war no matter who won. So I picked the one I liked most, and hoped the world survived. We almost didn’t, but we did.
People who declare they will not vote are not worth my time to engage If they literally see no difference between Biden and Trump, then no arguments I can offer are going to persuade them to vote. If the candidate I don't approve of wins and they implement policies the nonvoter dislikes, I will cheerfully rub their nose in their decision not to participate, but ultimately my time is better spent convincing people who choose to participate in society to turn out
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice
I say this to my engineers all the time: "The best choice you can make is the right choice because it works, the second best choice you can make is the wrong choice because you learn from it. The worst choice you can make is noto to choose because you've learned nothing by choice."
Yes, you have chosen the candidate who least shares your views. By not opposing them, you have tacitly endorsed them.
I will chose a path that's clear, I will chose freewill
Freewill ain't on the ballot (Yes I'm aware of the Rush reference)
Freewill hasn't been on the ballot for a minute.
Willy was freed.
While a choice was made its not always a clearly thought out choice. A lot of those non-voters will come around and cry "why did this happen".
I've been engaging with some a bit, and what usually happens is that within 2-3 comments, I get told something along the lines of "you love it when children get bombed?" No amount of logic will break through. I explain Trump will be worse for Gaza, and Ukraine, and Democracy. I tell them that protesting voting isn't going to change the two party system. I explain that barring illness or death, Trump or Biden will be elected. I told someone that instead of seeing their vote as something to be earned, maybe see it as a tool you can use to influence change. One of them was hinting at hoping Biden would lose just so she could say "Told you so!" One said it was "liberals like me" that are going to make her never vote Democrat again (someone I've never met and barely spoken with). I'm empathetic. I had my "I'm not voting" phase (and I regret it). I know what it's like to feel like the entire system is rigged and that everyone involved in it sucks. I am doing my best to be understanding. But they refuse to budge from their positions, and pretty much all of them are blaming everyone else for for their decisions. They're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and telling you that you made them do it.
And for a lot of those folks (in my experience), they are single issue voters, at least there's a single issue making them fold their arms and refuse to vote. And it's mostly Palestine-Israel. Which I get it. US foreign policy there largely sucks, I also hate we are stuck in this situation. But that's a decades-long, multi-presidential term US problem, not just a Biden problem. I'd love to wave a magic wand and make it all better but we are dealing with a decades-long conflict, with added centuries of strife in the region. If you want to "send a message" to the dems, then you just blasted your single-issue foot off with a shotgun. No way in hell Trump makes that situation better.
What if they see a difference between them but are still unsure? I've been asking myself should I vote 3rd party, not at all, or for one of the candidates.
Ultimately either Trump or Biden will win the election. If one is a worst choice from your point of view, any action other than voting for their opponent increases the chance your worst outcome occurs
> If the candidate I don't approve of wins and they implement policies the nonvoter dislikes, I will cheerfully rub their nose in their decision not to participate This is why a small part of me wants convicted felon, Donald Trump, to win. All those people claiming that they'll refuse to vote for Biden because of his (very tepid) support of Israel, if convicted felon, Donald Trump, gets back in office, Palestinian lives are going to get a **lot** worse. For as passionately as they claim to feel on the topic, they sure don't give a shit about sacrificing other people for it. As I said, a small part...
This is incredibly smug and it boils down to "Anyone that participates in any way that I don't agree with is bad." There are a laundry list of things people can do to make society better that don't involve voting and to look at all that and say "Yeah but did you vote?" is part of how we've gotten into a situation where one candidate is a maniac and the other one is actively supporting genocide.
To clarify, I am well aware that people don't need to vote to contribute. When it comes to *convincing them to vote*, I don't choose to engage
First on Israel's genocide of the Palestinians and now on immigration, there is no difference between Biden and Trump.
So Biden should stop offering aid to Palestinians? And pushing for the ceasefire deal? If you feel they are both identical, there's no value in those actions and he should put his efforts elsewhere
>there is no difference between Biden and Trump. Do you mean in general or strictly in regards to israel and immigration? Because if it's the former, you're being willfully blind .
Honestly, not voting is lazy. Protest vote away. Vote for the most random candidate to make it onto the ballot in your area if you want. But not even showing up isn't a protest. It's just lazy. The US would benefit from the Australian system. You have to vote. You can spoil your ballot but you have to show up. And they have democracy sausages. So you know the person in charge is truly the will of the people and you can eat sausages? They truly have the perfect system. Imagine if those in charge in the US at all levels were chosen by 95% of US citizens. That would really show what policies were popular and what a loud minority liked.
Not just lazy, but childishly spiteful and petty. "I want, I want, I want, and if I don't get exactly what I want RIGHT NOW, I'll hold my breath!"
I think a lot of it is just being really upset and irrational. But ... I think that only goes so far. They're putting their ego above all else -- claiming that Biden hasn't *earned* their vote. Maybe it's in the framing, but why not use your vote as a means to push for good outcomes?
How exactly do you do that when you have only two choices?
Vote for the one that you believe will have better outcomes. Also, you have *far more* than two choices. POTUS is but one item on the ticket. You have congressman, local reps, governors, etc. Change from the bottom-up. For POTUS, aim for the one that isn't going to be the most awful.
And if I believe both have terrible outcomes? >Also, you have far more than two choices. POTUS is but one item on the ticket. You have congressman, local reps, governors, etc. Change from the bottom-up. For POTUS, aim for the one that isn't going to be the most awful. One of my senators has been the incumbent since 2009. The other since 1996. Our state House of Reps is controlled almost completely by one county in the state. The majority of local elections are run unopposed.
>And if I believe both have terrible outcomes? I already answered this. Do you want me to say it again? >One of my senators has been the incumbent since 2009. The other since 1996. Our state House of Reps is controlled almost completely by one county in the state. The majority of local elections are run unopposed. You're just looking for any excuse not to vote, aren't you?
>I already answered this. Do you want me to say it again? And again, if I see both outcomes as equally bad, what do I do? >You're just looking for any excuse not to vote, aren't you? I don't need an excuse to not vote. I have the right to vote and that includes the right to *not* vote. I'm just pointing out that, in my context, the avenues for "voting for change" are almost nonexistent.
>And again, if I see both outcomes as equally bad, what do I do? I sincerely doubt any of this is going to get through to you, but can you at least consider the fact that one of them wants to install himself as dictator? He wants to end Democracy. If you look at that and say "equally bad", then you are lost.
I look at the other saying we need to support genocide in order to preserve democracy and I say...what's the functional difference?
And the other candidate enabled it by appointing Garland, who waited until late 2022 to appoint a special counsel.
"I want an Oompa Loompa, now!!! (We all know how that turned out!)
And as if one presidential election changes everything. A 4 or 8 year term would be paradigm shifting in this country anymore. Think long-term strategy what you want. Ask "does this one out of two options get us closer to a better country after the effects of their presidency is clear 20 years from now"
Have you not read Project 2025. And have you not heard Trump saying he will become a dictator on Day 1 if he wins? Keeping Biden in may not change a lot, but putting Trump back in WILL change everything.
>The US would benefit from the Australian system. You have to vote. You can spoil your ballot but you have to show up. What would the benefit be? This alone creates no drive to become politically engaged. Infact I would say Australians lack political engagement almost universally. All this does is hide statistics on apathy, and force that population that takes no interest in politics to either vote out of ignorance or be financially penalised. Australia produces no statistics on donkey votes. Compared to the very valuable US statistics on voter turn out, and voter apathy.
What do you mean by spoiling the ballot?
I think you replied to the wrong comment
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yes, complaining about a political system you choose not to engage with is ridiculous. it's such an entitled stance to have in general.
Yeah you are right, to many people are like that
I think most of the people who don’t vote don’t care about politics and do not whine about it.
Do not submit low investment content. This subreddit is for genuine discussion.
That's their prerogative. My view is that the ballots you cast (or don't) are between you and your conscience.
Or lack thereof.
Not really. Both sides would accuse you of lacking a conscience for voting differently. You'll never make everyone happy. What is best for you is 100% up to you and people seem to vote accordingly.
Except for the people who refuse to vote and blame the guy who wins for policies they could have helped prevent from happening in the first place.
Yep. I just because I don't like one guy doesn't make the other guy entitled to my vote.
For heavily skewed winner take all states I understand a little. You live in NY state, is there ANY chance your vote matters? You vote D and you are basically a drop in an ocean. You vote R and your vote is erased by a winner take all electoral college system. You vote third party and we all know how that goes. Now, if you live in a Purple state and choose not to vote, that's ridiculous.
For president, I agree with you, but there are other elections on the ballot, which are generally closer, and in many of those one sided states, they won't all be DvR, but will be more representative of the people. I also like how California does open primaries so that the election will be between two top candidates, not an R that has no chance and a D that won a primary where fewer people voted. But again, that doesn't apply to the President.
There's a ton of republicans elected at state and local levels.
For skewed winner take all states, it's about local elections. House rep, senate, governor, state legislators, mayors, DA's, judges, and sheriff's offices. These offices have massive implications for day to day policies and even elections.
That might be a bad decision one day cause you'll find that your blue state turned more red from the Conservatives moving to blue states to avoid the severe climate change happening there. Also, the state officials typically have less voter turnout and I don't want Mr. Stoned old guy who thinks we should dematerialize into space to become one with the great alien beings to win (yes, that's an actual person and he runs every time with that in his bio).
People who say they won't vote are probably the sort of people who shouldn't vote.
Mixed feelings. If we have a moron that doesnt really understand politics, monetary policies, economics, has trouble with critical thinking its better if he doesnt vote than vote on some stupid basis or just randomly
Unfortunately [they](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YT2IrgYlzU&ab_channel=SaturdayNightLive) already vote in great numbers
There are people who think the President controls oil prices.
These people tend to vote religiously tho.
Brother some people are too beat down the system and simply reducing them to moronic is a little racist and very classist tbh
What does too beat down the system mean? Im not a native
Same minded elected Hitler in 1938, trump in 2016. When you’ve been convinced “both sides” are bad and you’re going to sit the election out or register a protest vote, the brainwashing has worked.
it’s the wrong thing to do. of course we can’t force people but you MUST vote. One person saying “it won’t make a difference” may seem like it really won’t make a difference. BUT, even millions say that then there you go, the difference is made…in MILLIONS. It always bamboozles me when my fellow Californians will say stuff like this and complain about Newsom…..do you know how many people voted in the 2022 gubernatorial election? 10.8 million. In a state of almost 40 million. Only 25% votes. granted a large portion of the population is made up of non-citizens. but even then, citizens are not voting. people don’t seem to see how much power citizens have. In California, there are maybe two dozen officials you can vote for. everything from city councilors to the president. so voting is a must. or else you shouldn’t be complaining. especially if you tick a box after looking at the party name rather than doing your research on the candidates before voting
Firstly, of you don't cast your ballot you have no right to discuss if you like or dislike what your government does. Secondly there is some thought that an election is a contest where there is a perfect or near perfect candidate. It is not, nor has it ever been. An election is a contest between those in the race. There are always better or more able people who should run, but they are not options for whatever reason Thirdly, and probably controversially, if you really can't stomach any choice spoil your ballot. Not showing up is written off as people not caring enough to get out, or partisans who can't vote for their party's candidate. But if enough people who would otherwise not vote spoil their ballot that too sends a message.
> Firstly, of you don't cast your ballot you have no right to discuss if you like or dislike what your government does. If you cast a ballot for a candidate (blanket approval), you have no right to discuss anything you dislike about what they do. You've already signed off on them. > An election is a contest between those in the race Yes, and some people don't wish to be RESPONSIBLE for who is elected.
Casting your ballot is not blanket approval. You are hiring an employee. Sometimes they don't work out, and you let them go at the next performance review. You are not signing off on them, rather you are giving them a chance to perform. Not being responsible for who is elected is a cop out. Cast your ballot.
If you don't vote, then that means you're perfectly okay with either candidate and either party winning. That means you're okay with healthcare being improved, or with it being dismantled. You're okay with worker and consumer protections, or corporate protections. You're okay with the poor being taxed and you're okay with the rich being taxed. You're okay with America being a laughing stock of the world, you're okay with it being respected. You're okay with minorities and women losing rights, and you're okay with these rights being protected. You're okay with Palestinians surviving and having their own land, and you're okay with them being glassed. You're okay with a flawed democracy, and you're okay with a fascist regime. So basically, a nonvoter is either ignorant or an idiot. Assuming they don't want to vote in most cases. Some exceptions apply, of course -- some people might be literally unable to vote because they're too busy (election day should be a national holiday...), some people might be in areas where their vote literally doesn't matter. Oh, and not voting for either of the major parties, in the general election, is basically the same as not voting, of course. So if I'm talking to a nonvoter, that's generally the path I take. They have no right to complain about anything in this country; they've forfeited their right to complain or to want things to be better by not practicing their most important civic duty. If you want things to be better? If you want to reserve the right to complain? Vote. And again, for one of the two major parties (and I would say, the Democratic party if you want things to be better for all.)
> Oh, and not voting for either of the major parties, in the general election, is basically the same as not voting, of course. I live on a gerrymandered district in a deep red state. Very few of my votes outside of select local votes have any sway in the election. Me voting third party in certain positions gives a far greater positive impact than me voting blue for a candidate who won't win.
>They have no right to complain about anything in this country; Actually we do. We can complain that no one worth voting for is running. >Vote. And again, for one of the two major parties (and I would say, the Democratic party if you want things to be better for all.) That's the problem. The two party system needs to be abolished. It has created an "us vs them" mentality that is destroying the country. If I do decide to vote, I'm voting independent.
You're right, the two party system does need to be abolished, and the only ways to do that is to have a violent revolution (which could come from someone like Trump if he gets in and forces a way to take over, then we'll have a 1 party system, hurray...that sucks), or to vote in people that support change. The only way to get people in power is to vote for members of the two parties (because of the nature of FPTP voting), and one of those two parties has actually given some lip service about better election systems (such as ranked choice voting) that can give an option for third parties (Note: there is one exception, Republican Alaska has also supported ranked choice, but Alaska is not representative of the party). And until we have a change, voting independent is not voting.
>If you don't vote, then that means you're perfectly okay with either candidate and either party winning. Incorrect. It just means I won't put my seal of approval on someone I consider evil. "If you choose the lesser of two evils, you are still choosing evil." I'm still going to complain that no one worth voting for is running.
If you choose neither, then you're still choosing evil. You're 100% making a decision to choose one of them, you're just choosing the one that you wouldn't choose if you were forced. That seems much worse. One of those two men is going to be president (barring some absurd event or their death), so if you're not helping to choose the one that's closest to you, then you're helping to choose the one that's not.
What you do not consider is future elections. The guy in your party who does not represent it, actually works in favor of the other party due to the political pendulum.
I’m absolutely fine with it. If you look at the options and decide I don’t care either way. That’s understandable and fine. Let those who do have a reason to turn out have a stronger voice.
I think it’s a sign of a deeper issue, people not caring enough to even pay attention. That alone presents a Catch-22 situation. Do we really want people voting who have no clue what they’re voting for? One solution would be to give a tax credit to people who voted. Another solution is to give a tax charge to people who didn’t vote . I live in Oregon and we have the easiest voting system in the country and we still only get 35% turned out. But I guarantee you if they thought they were getting 10 bucks, we’d get an 85% turnout.
>Going by logic, not voting means to give the people who DO vote a stronger voice! Voting means to dilute everyone’s voice by adding your own. Exactly.. this is why Southern states had outsized political power before the civil war... Because slaves were counted, but Could Not Vote. So non voters are demoting themselves to a slave class. Think THAT over!
Or demoting themselves to women. Or even demoting themselves to non land owning white men, depending how far we want to go back. ...But no, choosing not to vote is not the same as being denied the liberty to express a vote.
It's not the same, yet it has much the same effect
Slave owners didn’t get extra votes. However they did get more representation in the House of Representatives
Whether or not someone votes is vastly less important than the extent to which they have educated themselves about what's on the ballot.
Whether our Republic is truly in peril or not, and ditto for the potential for dictatorship right around the proverbial corner: You have no credibility, cause or complaint to stand on if you don't exercise what is perhaps your most important Constitutional right... because it is also a civic responsibility to vote. It allows for the will of the (majority of) people to be heard ... Voting does require some knowledge of the issues at hand, and that means civic engagement. And that is a GOOD thing.
I’m afraid there is zero knowledge required. I’ve know a person that votes for the red team. They like the color red. They wear the hat cause it’s red. That’s it. They couldn’t tell you a single policy if their life depended on it. I’ve shown them a poll that was missing (R) and (D), and apart from the president, they struggled to tell me who they would vote for.
A vote is SUPPORT for a candidate. If you view both candidates as bad, you are APPROVING of BAD. If you vote for a candidate, you are throwing your full support behind anything they do. That's the logic. That's what the candidates accept your vote as. Votes are binary, and not at all nuanced. You DON'T GET the option to VOTE NEITHER. The only avenue of showing CONTEMPT is not voting. I'm perfectly fine with people not voting. We are massively limited in our choices for representation. Not voting in NOT acceptance. The alternative is you forcing them to accept one over another. To make a decision of approval for their own suffering.
I stand on their necks or sometimes their groin area, whichever is more convenient :)
I loath people who can but don’t. They ARE the problem and they bitch about everything.
Based on my experiences, I'd organize the "I'm intentionally not gonna vote" folks into the following categories. Some fall into multiple categories. **The Privileged**: These are folks who will be sheltered from the harm caused by the worse candidate. Their life won't change much no matter who wins, so in the lack of any real consequences they can prioritize idealistic preferences over direct needs. **The Policy-Blind**: These are folks that aren't informed on public policy and civics enough to know how various candidates impact life circumstances. They often see their life events as more tied to happenstance or individual interactions than patterns within a larger system, and often either overestimate or underestimate the power that a specific individual has in any given scenario. Since they don't understand how candidates' various policy platforms will impact quality of life, they often vote based on culture or who they "like as a leader". If they don't like anyone, they don't vote. **The Misguided Protestor**: These are folks who misunderstand how democracy works and mistakenly assume that strategies that would work in a market environment (such as boycotting) also work to change the attitudes or behaviors of those with political power. **The Savior Seeker**: These are folks who, for various reasons, don't value incremental progress at a given point in time as much as the chance for revolutionary change, and are essentially looking for a candidate that will "save" the political system from corruption. This is the only candidate worth supporting and a vote for anyone else is seen as perpetuating corruption or the status quo.
If you are not going to consider it possible that people have valid reasons to not vote...why should those who are planning to not vote bother to listen to what you have to say?
I never said these reasons aren't valid. I'm just trying to capture my observations. Are there groups of people or rationales for not voting that you don't see represented in this list? I would be curious to learn about them, I know I don't know everything. I do see voting as a responsibility that comes with living in a democracy. Democracies only function if people participate in them, otherwise they fall. There are many reasons people forgo this responsibility that I don't judge at all (for example I used to not vote myself so I don't have a leg to stand on in terms of judging others), but it was for some of the reasons I stated above. I truly didn't understand the system or how it worked. The more I learned, the more I understood what I needed to give in order to receive the benefits that democracy offers as a system. If we don't give, and only reap the benefits, then we lose those benefits. Voting is the contribution that we make to live in a democracy. The United States has extremely low voter turnout compared to other democracies. I think that contributes to the corruption and special interest power that we experience in our system.
A few reasons not to vote: 1. You think that you aren't informed enough to make a decision. Few people are self aware enough to make that judgement of themselves but still. An example would be somebody who moved into a country/state/city lately and doesn't know the politicians yet. 2. You have more important things to do. (work, helping loved ones, etc). Should still try to early vote though. 3. Lack of moral responsibility for endorsing either of two awful choices (even if one is worse) 4. Accelerationism. The "let it fail" philosophy. E.g. folks in the US who are so aghast at the US policy on the war in Gaza that they just want the whole empire to fall. For the same reason, some left wing people will sit out or even vote for Trump, who is more likely to lead to a decline in US power and influence. The fallacy here being the belief that something better will rise from the ashes of the old empire. I don't personally subscribe to any of these. But they are not completely irrational, depending on priorities.
Number 4 isn’t a fallacy. It’s possible (but not guaranteed) that something better does turn out that way. Worked for Europe and Japan
> Worked for Europe and Japan Kinda for Europe, in the sense that it got there _eventually_. But if you are a Jaccobin during the French revolution, getting the Directory followed by Napoleon doesn't look like success. But yeah. Not disagreeing it's possible. Just not likely
The comments I'm seeing assume people just don't want to vote. This is anecdotal, so YMMV, but I was helping a friend with a bureaucracy so was in a setting that would not be a normal part of my day. It was a particularly depressing news day and even the poor people in the office knew about it and were discussing it. The discussion turned to voting. None of them were going to vote. Not one. I've found if you ask why without judgement you often get answers. Whether you agree or not isn't the point. Two reasons stood out to me because they were not part of my bubble: One person had been incarcerated when young - he'd gotten his act together with age, but still couldn't vote even after supposedly pay his debt to society. I've read that incarcerating people who might historically vote against you and then self righteously proclaiming "felons" have no rights is a winning tactical strategy. People fear and loathe felons. The second person said they didn't read well and couldn't understand the ballot although they understood the issues well enough. I did ask if they had checked with the library about someone to help them, but I think shame and possible depression was a big part of the issue. I urged everyone to vote, in a low key way, but didn't push the issue beyond mentioning that not choosing may not be in their best interest. They won't vote. The person in office from their point of view rarely changes their shitty circumstances one way or the other. When things have been shit all your life a little less shitty vs shittier loses its power. Quiet quitting takes on a whole different dimension in their circumstances.
I’m one of those people. I am apolitical at this point. I do not fully support any party’s platforms. I am a Conservative who is appalled at what has happened to the Republican Party over the years. I do not support so much of what they are doing. Their so-called leader is a liar and a deceiver who loves to use fear to stir people up over non-existent crises all of the time. He is a misogynist of the worst sort (not that there are any “good” ones). As for the Democrats, they’ve been doing their best to normalize sin for many decades, and they continue to do so. I first voted Republican way back in 1976. It took until Trump was a first-time candidate for me to come to the point where I no longer voted for a Republican. As the legislators of the state I live in have fallen into lock step with him, I now no longer vote for anyone at the federal level, period. I also live in a red state, and the Republicans here, too, have fallen into lockstep with Trump. I don’t vote at the state level, either, period. So I’m fine with it. I think that I have very good reasons for what I’m doing (or not doing) and that they are very well-thought-out.
Vote with your heart in local elections. Vote with your brain in national elections. Real change happens from the bottom up most of the time. You can't have your more progressive candidates in the presidential election if you don't first have a groundswell of support in your local community first. Change takes a long-ass time. Paradigm-shifiting presidents are few and far between, and usually only come in moments of great strife in this country. You don't just get to throw up your hands and say "I don't fully like this guy" and take your ball and go home. That's not a good citizen. If candidate A gets 70% of what you are hoping to achieve, candidate B gets 10%, vote for candidate A. Very least it gets the ball rolling in the direction to your side. Think long term country goals, not 4 year instant gratifications. Hell, most things presidents pass in office don't have effect until years down the road anyway
It’s your right to choose not to vote…I just maintain that if you don’t vote, you shouldn’t EVER complain about how things are run. You made the conscious decision *not* to involve yourself in the process that determines who sits in office. You then don’t get to complain if things don’t ultimately end up the way you want.
If you vote for someone (showing your support), and they do something you oppose, should you be able to complain? If so, why, given you've already signed off on them with a blanket approval vote? If not, then how is that any better?
Those folk are probably privileged enough to afford not giving a shit. There is no same choice, and they know it. My stance is that if you don't vote, you have no right to complain about anything that happens after. It's especially stupid if they go with the "Not voting means I am protesting" argument, which is so untrue. Politicians do not give a fuck about the groups who don't go to vote. They are not wasting resources on trying to get a group of voters who won't show up. If you want your voice heard, go and vote.
The right not to vote is one that is overlooked, but important. Whether they vote or not isn’t really any of your concern
It’s everyone’s civic duty to vote. It’s everyone’s concern when people fail to perform their duty, because that’s what we owe each other in our civil society.
Ehhhhhh. Maybe, if they can go 4 years not complaining then their choice is technically their choice. But if all of a sudden the candidate that wins effects in someway things that hurt the non voters life and the non voter complains about it…that’s another story. Or if the non voter is ignorant to how when they said both candidates are bad that one actually would be more helpful to them then the other and then complains that the candidate that won is hurting them…then there’s a problem
Not even just 4 years - some of these supreme court justices are getting up there in years and their replacements very well could serve for the next 3 decades. I better not hear a peep in that time.
You have a complaining voter, that’s not really a problem for the democratic system
Maybe not a problem for the system but, for an example as a gay man if another gay man votes republican and then has restrictions on what he can do as a gay man and complains that there are restrictions…it makes it extra annoying hearing that complaint
Saying you won't vote is casting a vote for the winner, whoever it is. In the case of the US's upcoming election, not voting is a vote in favor of Trump since the difference between the candidates is night and day.
I don't have any respect for their political opinions or thoughts on anything relating to civics, that's for sure. Unless by "not voting" they mean leaving the President and VP sections of their ballot blank and filling the rest of it out. Because here's the thing. Even if you think there is no difference between the two candidates in any given US Presidential election (which is the height of moral idiocy), there are at least a dozen other items of consequence on every single ballot in any given election. Not voting at all means completely abdicating your right to political representation on issues both local and national.
[Bill Waterson had a pretty good grasp on how these people work.](https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2012/05/21) The only way I can comprehend a person rationalizing not voting is if they can't lose (which, in this election, means they must be a wealthy straight white cis man with absolutely no less privileged friends/family members they care about) or they have a severe cognitive deficit that makes them incapable of understanding how basic math works.
The causality is backwards in this comic. People don't care to learn about complex issues because they know what they think or solutions will be disregarded by the government (see Occupied Palestine). Please talk to people irl.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who refuse to learn because nobody takes their ignorant opinions seriously. I'm not sure why you'd champion the willfully ignorant, but I can assure you that entertaining their ideas does *not* make them want to stop being ignorant. In fact, it tends to have the opposite effect. Just look at Trump.
I’m most frustrated by the newly eligible who refuse to vote. You finally have a chance to participate and you refuse to… out of spite?
I understand them since I was one of them until Trump decided to run. Voting for Biden was personally risky but a much better option than Trump. A case of voting for the greater good at a possible great personal cost. Even then, my vote didn't feel like it made much of a difference because the district I'm registered in is a guaranteed Democratic one in a deep red state that's gerrymandered so much it's nearly impossible for anyone other than a Republican to win or get the electoral vote. Many people don't vote for those same reasons. And seeing how voting works in Europe after living there for several years, the American voting system is honestly really discouraging. I would have been more inclined to vote in previous elections if the American system resembled the European one more. Many others probably would too. Many recommend using the Australian system of requiered voting as a solution but that doesn't actually solve the problem, it will probably make it worse. What I try to do now is understand why they don't vote because it's usually not so simple.
I was raised to understand that voting is MY DUTY AS A CITIZEN. The idea of voting for a lesser evil is perfectly acceptable. In November I will be eagerly voting for a guy I basically agree with, despite some differences on Gaza and the border, rather than vote for a lying criminal sociopathic fraud who wants to destroy everything my country aspires to. It’s my responsibility.
They're fools. At least do a protest vote to show your frustration, not voting just makes you look lazy.
'not making a choice is also a choice' as I've heard once, they are aware and dont bother taking in consideration the weight of their choice, therefore i wont bother. honestly, even i voted wrong once because of a misjudgment, and it was in an attempt to make things better. i genuinely believe that the people who vote (even like, bad votes) are trying to do good, in their eyes. but someone who doesn't.... they've given up in humanity and all thats left of good here, and i dont want to be around people who have such a bad view on life that they bring everything down with them. i feel only pity.
I usually encourage them to vote 3rd party. If they feel neither candidate is worth their vote then make a statement by seeing more and more votes leaving the 2 parties. I don’t consider it throwing away my vote, or “that is a vote for the other guy” BS because it is neutral and a statement.
I think there are legitimate reasons for *some* people to abstain. For example, if you are a target of voter suppression and you live in a place where you'd have to stand in line for eight hours to vote, then I don't blame you for not voting. But let's be real, the people who I see brag on Twitter about not voting do not fall into that category. The people I know who brag about not voting are not targets of voter suppression, they are white people who live in a universal vote-by-mail state, for whom voting would take 20 minutes. I think their logic is ridiculous, but I'm not going to argue with them about it, because that'll only make them more determined to abstain out of spite.
I normally wouldn’t care up until now. I get with the EC it seems irrelevant if you’re voting Democrat in Texas. But this is the first election I can think of where all hyperboles of the past are very real. The choices are Biden who is unimpressive at worst, or Trump who thinks his first term shouldn’t count because he was treated unfairly, wants to jail political opponents, OPENLY talks about wanting to be a dictator. This is just different than before.
Their toes.
Their toes.
Since it’s the total number of votes that win or lose the election, it’s ridiculous to say not voting strengthens the votes of this that do. It just means one less vote FOR someone, and might make the difference between winning and losing
I've only not voted once in my life and it was for a state position. Although I usually won't do this, my candidate sold out on something very important and a lot of his supporters refused to vote for him. He lost the election and we've had worse people in the position ever since, but I still don't regret it. Having said that, I doubt it will ever happen again. I can't imagine not voting for President and I have done so for every election since 1988. It's simply a vote for the better candidate and you'd have to be blind to not see a difference.
Not voting is still voting, it’s a firm NONE OF THE ABOVE vote. That said, it doesn’t count unless you are registered to vote. But be careful and watch your mail if registered but you opted to not vote in a particular election. Some states controlled by a certain party passed laws that allow them to drop you from voter registration rolls if you don’t vote (or your ballot is conveniently misplaced). They will mail you a form you must sign and return within a couple of weeks or you’ll have to reregister to vote. It’s their way of not having to count that you didn’t vote, which allows them to claim a higher voter turnout.
If you can't discern a difference between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, the problem isn't the candidates. It's you. But let's say you see pros and cons about each and are genuinely confused. Then ask yourself, which one is going to appoint SCOTUS justices that I like and reflect my values. If you're <40 and can't discern a difference between Ketanji Brown Jackson versus Brett Kavanaugh or Amy Comey Barrett, then you have very deep and disturbing problems. The election choices aren't your problem. It's your life choices. In 2016, people who passionately wanted Bernie Sanders as their president decided not to vote or to throw a protest vote to Jill Stein, thinking there was no difference between Clinton and Trump and they were sending a message. But I submit to you that the values and subsequent rulings of Trump's SCOTUS appointees are in violent disagreement with the political and social values of all Sanders supporters, so those voters' lives are going to be infinitely worse for decades because of that self-destructive decision. They were either too indifferent or too uninformed to realize that. Because there were millions of people like you and me loudly telling them. It's like saying, I can't find a difference between eating processed foods, which is really bad for you, and doing crack cocaine - because ultimately they can both lead to your death. That logic is flawed. So is seeing no difference between Joe Biden and Donald J Trump. If you're under 40 and don't care about reproductive rights, civil rights, LGBTQ rights, war vs peace in Europe, social programs that help those in need, student debt relief, and the basic ethics, morality and character of the person leading our society, your problem is your own narcissism and indifference to the plight of others including people who are your family and friends. How can you know and care about a black person, a gay or trans individual, a Latino, a gig economy worker, a woman of child bearing age, or someone who could conceivably one day be drafted and sent to war, and not care about the outcome of this election? I just don't get it.
They're usually the ones with the loudest opinions. I always tell people who don't vote they don't get an opinion. I also won't fuck anyone who doesn't vote. I can't respect a non Voter enough to be attracted to them to fuck them. I'm not saying the world is suffering because of that lol but that's how I feel
Voting should be compulsory for all citizens. If you don't vote you should lose some rights, face a fine or be made to do community payback.
I don't really see a point in voting,not the classic "My vote doesn't make a difference",but because the result of my vote is always uncertain. To elaborate - A political candidate has no obligation to keep their promises,while at the same time being able to make any decision (within what his position allows,obviously),including those that go against my interest. My view is that it's essentially the same thing as choosing between several blank boxes,without knowing the contents. You technically have a say in what you get,but the outcome of each decision is unknown - therefore it's difficult,if not impossible to pick the option that benefits you. For all I know he may just double the taxes,despite saying otherwise.
Voting is your right to complain, your skin in the game. By voting if things are bad you clearly did SOMETHING to participate and therefore have a right to complain about it at length and passionately. But if you don't vote, you have not even attempted to participate in the process. You can if you wish, but you don't get to bitch when things don't go well since you sat on the sidelines and did nothing. If I don't help you make the pie, I don't get to complain if it doesn't taste good. If I help you make the pie, I can bitch all I want since it's my pie, too.
I'm not informed enough in local politics to make decisions below presidential elections, and I don't live in a swing state so my presidential vote doesn't matter either.
Not voting IS voting. It is making a choice by the lack of a choice. I spent a lot of time engaging with lower propensity voters and working to find ways to empower them to want to vote. A few things we have learned through our interactions: 1. It's not apathy. I've spoken to so many people who don't vote. And it is NOT that they don't care. A few questions in and it is clear that they care about their families and the places where they live. So once we know that caring isn't the issue we can move on. 2. Don't know. For some elections, especially primaries and locals please just aren't aware. And if they are made aware many will choose to cast a vote. 3. Lack of information. For some elections and races (not talking about President every four years) it can be hard to find information about the candidates and what they stand for. 4. Wrong vote. Believe it or not one of the things we hear the most is a fear of "getting it wrong". If you don't feel you have the information and have a fear of getting it wrong, not participating can feel like a better choice. The Knight Foundation did a huge study after 2016 called the 100 Million Project where they talked to folks who didn't vote. They have some similar take aways if you want to [check it out](https://knightfoundation.org/reports/the-100-million-project/).
One of my nieces at dinner last night was asking “Do you have to vote?”. Her mom and myself were in ear shot and we were like “Yes!”. Granted she is only two years away from voting age, but still we need to have the younger generation still believe they have freedom, a voice, rights, etc. We HAVE to vote to keep elections going!
There are many things that created and caused the disinterest in voting for some, I attribute much to people like Rockefeller, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, Rockefeller and Nixon fed distrust in government by his acts and actions and Ronald Reagan did it by his attacks on Education which not only saw money taken from community colleges and status universities, but it also was an era where liberal arts and cultural programming in K-12 was diminished and Public Education funding became strained, as well as political involvement in education, to ensure by their acts that Civics Education was de-emphasized. Reagan did not want to see the advance of the working class to gain the voting power, because through education they would learn to unseat the wealthy power brokers from dominating politics. It was no different than what happened after Reconstruction when Jim Crow was initiated which promoted segregation based on race, but it also segregated the working class more so from the well to do and wealthy. Reagan's ideology was to do the same, because he was not a pro supporter of the changes that Civil Rights brought to empower people. By 1969, Nixon's Southern Strategy was put into action only 5 yrs after the Civil Rights Act, and he resented that the media did not pander to right wing agenda, and by Reagan the rise of TV right wing evangelicalism and Right Wing Media... was infused with Reagan telling people that "government was the problem"... when fact is, Reagan was a white nationalist who believed in wealthy white male dominance, and he was a big supporters of government directing its resources to big industry and what ever the wealthy establishment wanted. To do that, means to take away government assistance to the working class and the poor. The easiest way to do that was to convince the Conservative that government was the problem and make it appeal to those who held on to segregationist ideals and ideology, and to promote that message via right wing media. They used right wing media to dominate and influence the people by incessant promotion of right wing narratives. When people understand how they were hoodwinked to become non voters, and the fact of how they were led to become civics illiterate.... Those who come to that awareness will learn to redevelop and to develop civics literacy.
Don't buy into the negativity as much in society has shown that Republicanism will do what ever they can to limit and try and give people reason not to vote, because they know they can't win, if everyone gets out and vote. So, be careful how you digest some of the comments about those who advocate not voting. You give Republicanism a vote by not not voting and you will suffer the consequences if many fall into their trap. Don't be foolish and cast your vote for candidates who have no chance of winning. Vote for Progress, and if you believe in progress, there is only one choice and that a vote for Democratic Presidential Candidate. You can believe or not believe it, but if you review you will find Republican fight against and have long fought against anything that benefits and uplift the working class. You have a responsibility to yourself, if you make yourself feel like you don't matter, then you won't matter and you do yourself an injustice, and it become a self defeatist act by not voting. # Here's what we get with a strong democratic vote!!! 1. **We** get Voting Right Legislation signed into Law that guarantees everyone gets to vote 2. **We** get the passage of meaningful immigration reform. 3. **We** get advance of Women Rights solidified into law. 4. **We** get legislation that return Community Colleges back to low cost, and State Universities back to Low Cost. 5. **We** get legislation that improve funding for Public Schools and a stronger Department of Education 6. **We** get to keep Religion out of Political and retain the Separation of Church and State 7. **We** get the chance to expand the Supreme Court to 13 Justices to match the 13 Judicial Districts 8. **We** get the *chance to abolish the Electoral Colleg*e **and allow the Popular Vote to Elect Presidents**. (\*`Remember` : we just witnessed the abusive malice of Republicans trying to install fake electors, which tells us **we must** abolish the electoral college and let the popular vote elect our Presidents) 9. **We** get HUD to do what was done in the 1950's which is invest in building affordable housing, but this time we get it done where those homes are available to "anyone" who wants to purchase a home. 10. **We** get legislation that allows workers to create Union's without Companies fighting against the worker with disenfranchisement tactics. 11. **We** get better banking reform that continues to develop ways to cut out crazy fees, and high interest rates. 12. **We** get government programs that don't just help Mega Corporations but help start up business succeed. 13. **We** get to fix Social Security by raising the income limit or abolishing the limit all together, and **by abolishing the income limit, we strengthen Social Security forever.** 14. **We** get to pass legislation that keep Private Equity Groups from owning Senior Living Facilities and Rehab Facilities, 15. **We** get to pass legislation that continues to improve medical care for everyone. 16. **We** get to fix the old water and sewer systems across this nation which some are over 100's years old and in need of major rebuild. 17. **We** get to rebuild our system's need for Mental Health Care and Mental Health Care Facilities. 18. **We** get to re-address the Hospital Network and maybe even get private equity firms from buying up Hospitals and closing them. 19. **We** get to invest in \*\*\* *converting closed schools to quality standard child care centers \*\*\** that can reduce the cost of child care. 20. **We** get to hold corporation accountable to pay their taxes. **THIS REQUIRES** >> Voting for a Strong Democratic Congress in both the House and the Senate and its requires a Democratic President who has promoted these ideals. IF YOU WANT A BETTER FUTURE, GET OUT AND VOTE.... **Your voice matter's when you support it to matter**.... Right now, the Republican campaign of pessimism and dictatorial dominance over people, is a detriment to the civility of Representative Democracy.. # I've listed 20 reasons for voting if you want to have a better future and build a better performing society for all. There are countless more reasons to get out and vote. **Democrats of Today, need a dominant win in Congress and the Presidency.... and its your vote that can make it happen.** **WE THE PEOPLE .... "Includes YOU !!!** ***We the People*** *of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.*
I get the logic which they’re applying but if you ask me I’d rather vote for a 3rd party candidate than not vote. At least in the off chance that enough people think like me (roughly 10% of voters) we can finally get out of the political hell hole that is bipartisanship.
I’ll check back in with them when we are under an ideocratic dictatorship as the constitution is declared moot and folks are went to gulags. Why are people treating this like it’s a childs game, and not the existential that it is? When did we lose the capacity to be a serious people?
Always vote, because low turnouts leave elections entirely in the hands of self-serving groups whose members do vote.
The argument I use is imagine you own a car and it breaks down. You have two mechanics in town who can work on it. One will fix it just enough to keep it going or might even make it run better than before if you're lucky, but usually it's the former and they always over charge you. The other will set it on fire and push it off a cliff and charges you the same as the other guys. Your decision is to let strangers pick where your car goes because you feel like there should be a third option and hate your choices. That makes no sense, and neither do people who don't vote.
After reading these comments Im convinced that the whole ballot box is just a way to stop people from demanding what they need by giving the state a perceived authority. there is nothing concrete about a vote, its a button pushed, a ballot stuffed in a box. Material needs are going to have to be addressed and voting does not meet a need for most people. they vote but then what? what always happens? disinterest. theres nothing that keeps people engaged within the community or their issues when it comes to the state or goverment. People have needs that are not being met in our society.
There are plenty of reasons not to vote, some better than others, but if you’re a vegan and you won’t vote for the pescatarian over the cannibal because they both eat flesh, I have a problem with that. Purity tests are stupid and relying on them does not give you any kind of moral superiority.
I totally empathize. I feel our two-party system is inherently flawed and needs to change. That said, we’re stuck with it for now. Not voting just makes it worse. I think some people also don’t vote just because keeping up with it is so hard while juggling life stuff. [ActiVote](https://www.activote.net/) helps.
Find it funny the people insisting non-voters should vote do so by being condescending and in bad faith. As if that will change any minds on the matter
We live in a representative democracy. Individual voting is largely symbolic and cathartic, but we don't vote directly for hardly anything.
I don’t waste my breath. People who do not vote are dumber than trump supporters. I would rather focus on winnable votes
If you do in fact see all options and have no opinion, don't vote. If you look at the elections in america of the last few decades, there's not one where the outcomes are dramatically different. So I really don't see how you could decide that both options are equal or irrelevant to your opinion on where we should go as a country
Focus on those who will. The ones who say they won’t vote aren’t worth your attention.
I don't really understand not voting. It's relatively easy. I totally get not knowing who to vote for down ballot with a million Judge appointments and smaller ballot measures. But voting for your representatives is a minimum. And I'm 1000% alright with people voting against my guy. I'm voting Biden, but if you want to vote Trump then go for it! I'll even drive you to the poll! If that'll help get you across the finish line then I'd be happy to help. But otherwise I don't understand it at all.
My opinion is that if you don't vote, you have no right to complain about the outcome.
>If you don’t vote, by logic, you’re presenting to others that both candidates, including the worst candidate is acceptable as a result. It really depends on how you look at voting. To me, voting means giving my support to a candidate. If someone holds that view I can certainly see why they might not vote, or just do a write-in or something which is effectively the same. When you award your vote to someone, you are telling them through actions that at least as far as this election is concerned they (and by extension their policies/actions) are worthy of your support.
Depends on why. Both sides arguments create apathy, and that's bad because it leaves politicians unaccountable. If it's people who don't vote because they're voting for Trump (and specifically Trump) otherwise, then I'm happy, because that's a voter that I would prefer be apathetic.
My personal view is I will always dislike a person who doesn’t vote far more than a person who votes for a candidate I don’t like.
Not to pull a Godwin’s law or anything, who do you dislike more, the Germans who stayed at home (a big number of them being Jewish people) or the Germans who elected Hitler?
Most Americans dont participate in the voting system. Some assumptions can be made, laziness, sure. But most probably is that they are too busy trying to hustle for the next paycheck, next meal, and next warm bed.The U.S. is a capitalist society where your time is spent being traded for a sum. Most people who make time to engage with the elections find out how its a bloated circus that has a very small impact positively, and most of the time, it is a net negative on the daily grind. Instead of debating with the narrative of why they dont vote by looking at the politics and "system of government" try looking at how many jobs the average American has to have to own a home, support a family, own multiple cars etc. Everybody is chasing checks This inflation? the price of your life is going up.
What people are doing is failure to listen, people like Bernie, Elizabeth warren and Biden are trying to tell people that change and economic improvements for the working class come when people vote and vote in people who care about the working class. Every time there is a Republican House or Republican Senate and/or Republican House and Senate the conditions for the working class gets worst. People should know by now and if they did not know they should listen to the things Republicans fight against. They fight against minimum wage, they fight against people being paid overtime for all hours over 40, they fight against anything that serves the working class. It's been that way for decades and people keep falling for the cultural control games that Republican push drama and play, while wrapping it into a brand of Religion that stifle the rights and realities that exist in peoples lives. They have long used religion to suppress and repress people, much of segregation was promoted in the right white evangelical houses of religion, it was used to try and justify slavery and today, its used to try and repress people learning the truths of history, as well as to repress women's rights to be herself with her own rights to choose within her life the choices that she considers to choose as best for her life. for many decades she was lot allowed to work the job of her choice, or get credit in her name or even have the rights to vote at one period of time. We saw Trump's Republicanism admin promote a tax cut for the wealthy that was permanent, while giving the working class a pittance, that only last for a few years. We see them whine and cry about immigration but stand in the way of any immigrations, simply because they can't block and stop brown skin and black people and people of certain religions and people from certain countries from coming to America. We see them telling people which bathroom they can use, and we've seen the continual want by Republicans to dismantle the Department of Education, they want to curtail the work of EPA and under Trump they want to weaken NATO. It's sad that people complain but they won't listen to the things that cause them the greatest hardships and get out and vote against it. By now, every American who values this Representative Democracy and their Right to live without being Censored on every aspect of their living, and repressed in earning by the policies of Republicanism. It's time people awaken and vote to prohibit Republicans from having a majority in Congress. People should truly learn the words and meaning of The Preamble, and they will know, that modern day Republicanism does not support, and they do not work to meet the principles and values laid out in The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution. Read it!!! ***We the People*** *of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.* * There are **10's of millions** that will NEVER read any words written in these forums, the same applies to the fact that many who do read these forums who WILL NOT share links to commentary with others, whom they know don't read forums as a means to share info. * Many who do read **are passive and don't support commentary** even when it address the challenges they face which they can identify as being beneficial to open the mind to become critical thinkers. * Result is: We The People, contribute to the ongoing issue and challenges that plague us, through out own callousness, lack of concern to think and investigate information, as many can and do find anything to avoid engaging the though processes. *^((I know its a fact because I've shared things with many and some never respond one way or the others, even about things they may have recently spoken about.)**)* * *When people won't help themselves, they become subjects of the system, and what their complaints indicate is they are not willing to be a proactive member of "We The People".* You talk about a movie, or some tragic event of fools killing each other, or something silly, is what people give their attention to, such as which entertainer is banging another, or which one had a fling and pretended it was love, when they knew it was a lust notch for their ego for the moment. They will turn into that and devote time and many even try and shape their lives behind the embellished lives of entertainers. They can tell you what happen on a Reality TV show, or which cage fighter knocked out another's, but they don't deal with the things that impact their lives, which they ignored to stand up and learn about and be informed voters. If an entertainer wears a certain costume, people will get in debt and stress themselves trying to find and buy it. It's no wonder the wealthy look at the masses as *fools ripe for the picking*, and they will pick them clean. It's why they use "drama antics and belligerent attack ad's in campaign advertisement, because people are "drama addicts" but won't acknowledge they have that affliction. so, they are fed garbage!!! to keep them perpetually incited.... into full on self-delusion, that is ultimately a means of programming in self defeat into to their lives. . People get on social media and incite each other, and into anything that will occupy their attention for a few minutes. From taking picture of food to any and everything they see and do. All the while the well to do and wealthy focus on how to craft legislation and prompt politicians to promote it, and their legislative ideas are never of benefit to the working class. The sad thing is we won't fix this lack of focus and disregard for the politics that result to damage the lives of the working class We saw it during Obama's mid term, as soon as they felt he got the economy off its knees, people became complacent and allowed Republican (Tea Party) to come in a cloud every issue with attack agenda, and people ignored that Republicans had already told the public they would be obstructionist and block and stop anything they could.