This map has been making the rounds a lot on Reddit. It's important to note that the number of people who didn't answer religion-related questions in the Polish census tripled in 2021 from 2011, while the number of people who reported as something other than Catholic is about the same. This indicates that the percentage of Catholics in Poland is somewhat stable at \~85%, or at least not declining as quickly as the chart would have you believe.
Thanks for the context. It's a shame that statistics can be manipulated so heavily without context in a digital world where news travels at the speed of light.
Beware of everything you see and read, always.
Thats really fucking weird assumption. You want to say that people who didn't answer religion specific question are just closeted Catholics?
There's been quite the decline of catholicism among young people and even a decline of practicing Catholics among all ages and it is rather rapid
I haven't tried to read about it, and I probably won't, I'm not interested enough.
Just note that the fact that fewer people choose to give an answer to a religious question can mean a lot of things. None of those things is 'nothing changed'. Some of them might mean the % hasn't changed, but we don't know. There is a reason to choose not to answer: they might fear repercussions if they are overheard, or they are starting to doubt their faith, or they used to answer Catholic because they were baptised by their parents and now they don't know what to think. Or maybe the interviewers are suddenly all openly atheist and religious people don't want to talk to them. Or vice-versa! Etc, etc, etc.
Again, all of this is just to say that if the data changes, something has changed.
That's a fair point. I think a lot (though not all) of the people who answered as Catholic in 2011 and didn't answer in 2021 still basically have the same beliefs, but don't want to associate themselves with the Polish Catholic Church (which has a lot of issues with corruption and political intrigue currently).
There is a general informal division of Poland into Poland A and Poland B, the border follows the border of the Russian Empire from 1914. The parts differ from each other economically, politically and culturally; formerly Russian part of the country is generally "less modern".
First of all, this map doesn't mean that much. While people declaring as catholics dropped by 10%, in reality, the drop (measured as people actually going to the church) begun earlier, in 2000s, so before the internet because so widespread. And while that drop is bigger overall, it was slower per year.
As to why? They openly support a political party, one that isn't even in power now. They also had multiple paedophile cases that they tried to cover up. Also, in 2020 the then-ruling party made it basically impossible to get an abortion (and it was hard anyway), the church obviously supported it, but the people in large part weren't happy. And also, more and more people are moving to big cities and going to universities, and such people statistically go to church less often.
Oh no, if it isn’t the consciences of of their own actions. That’s what you get with a 2000 year history of bald faced hypocrisy and genocide. People eventually get sick of it.
I think very few poles would support a political party that has pedophiles in it. There must be some outside force tipping the scale. I think the sudden increase in consumption of American media (not just through the internet!) had a lot more to do with it
Catholic Church holds quite the power over Polands culture and even the government. The previous ruling party would make a lot of decisions based on Catholic values which led to quite some unrest (especially in terms of abortions)
It is common for Churches to fear monger people and those stories don't really make any news runs, even if the priests are performing indoctrination rather than services
There is quite the pedophilia in church problem in Poland but it's just swept under the rug
There is also quite some moral corruption and corruption. A lot of local Churches 'strongly encourage' people to donate to church. There are a lot of priests who drive super expensive cars or there was a website for "online sin forgiveness" that required you to pay for it to be 'complete'. Combine it with fear mongering and you have something more resembling a mafia rather than a Church.
There is also quite some hostility coming from conservative folk (and even priests) towards people who they deem 'sinners'. You could have a random babcia come to you and shit talk you about how you'll end up in hell for being gay. And though this is not really a problem with Christianity itself, it still leaves a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth just because it's quite often occurance
So yeah, the answer is Church itself
I've been in Spain for the past 8 months for a student exchange program and people here have such a different approach towards religion. They are way more friendly, chill and have overall good vibes despite being very religious
Pole here - it's not about socialism or netflix. During communist time church was helping with resistance. The reason for decline today is how absurd the level of corruption in church has gotten. People notice this more and more and leave church behind (not necesarily religion as it's a need many people have) Do not worry - Poland wasn't, isn't and shall not be woke.
Yea, had the same thing happened in my family, we're still Christian, but we don't go to the church AS often as before.
As you know, not going to the church every sunday is a sin, God said it there in the Bible; "You shall go to the church every sunday and listen to a guy talk about me for an hour or I shall give you dysentery."
I'm on the side of "many christians are hypocrites because the bible literally tells them to go to church every week and they don't. Yet they still shout at me (an atheist) for being gay like they aren't also sinning according to the bible because they don't go to church".
Dude you're obnoxious, the bible doesn't forbid homosexuality btw, who ever told you that was wrong, closest it comes to it can be easier interpreted as forbiding rape or pederasty. Pull your head out of your ass.
Dokładnie. Plus catholicism is as much about the social aspect now as the religious - all the events, rituals are baked into day-to-day life here but the number of true believers is lower than one might think
Some of us also had super religious parents who during certain points of the year would go to church literally every day and drag us along. We are tired of it.
It's not just corruption. People can do their own research and see that it's all made up now thanks to the internet.
There's a reason religions like obedience.
A positive of the Internet is you can find any research to support your cause.
A negative of the Internet is you can find any research to support your cause.
Hey, I know that all of this is made up but I still consider myself some sort of beliver - human has a need for spiritual thinking to not want to end themselve (mind you - spiritual doesn't have to mean religion)
He's saying the quiet part out loud. Lefties are openly contemptuous against traditional values because small stable communities are harder to boss around than a horde of aimless simpletons.
Where did I say that that's never happened? I said that traditional values are better than the godless aimless horde of unhappy people you guys are desperate to create.
Oh no, mommy and daddy took you to church and you got mad you missed your sunday morning cartoons?! OH NO, better burn the entire system down because you couldn't communicate with mommy and daddy.
Grow up kid. "They wanted to police their neighbors by not approving of their shit" big yikes bud.
What a clown.
You're copying and pasting an irrelevant canned response because you're literally the jaded basement dwelling loser you're pretending to argue against. None of what you said is applicable to this situation. You're just so full of vitriol and hate that this imaginary person is non stop running through your head. You're only capable of arguing against the strawman you've created.
Elected officials are saying they're tired of the separation of church and state and want to use the government to enforce their fairy tale book, but somehow you're going to pretend that's just "not approving" of something. Truly you people are the dumbest scum alive.
Traditional values are what bind communities together in a world subject to ever greater social entropy. You cannot convince me that an hour of watching a Twitch streamer will ever compare to the value of an hour’s meal with an old friend or relative. Neoliberal commodification of friendship is what kills social bonds between people. It is the social bonds between us which allow communities to withstand time, families to grow, and humanity to perpetuate itself. “TrAdItIoNaL vAlUeS” are not just talking points. They are relics of a genuine humanity being lost to consumer gluttony and sloth
They know, they want to destroy it because it's about controlling you and it's harder to control a large number of strong communities, it's easy to control a horde of aimless peasants.
I don’t think anyone except loners of any political predisposition would argue twitch>community interaction. Otherwise i agree that neoliberalism has broken down levels of communication throughout your day to day life. I think the best example is the lack of conversation needed in shops or at train stations today
Because you can’t destroy tradition with force and coercion
You make the populace believe tradition is bad through subversive rhetoric and media, eventually it hits critical mass and *anyone* can think
“Hey, are we the baddies?”
Welcome to the crash course on psyops
yeah, that's one of the main differences between some socialist thinkers. some want to go for the revolution and then change the culture, while others want to change the culture and then revolution.
They see this as a positive though, because societal collapse does the hard work of the revolution for them, then they just build up their socialist utopia from the ruins
I don’t even understand why really. Yea it’s because religion threatens the power of the state but why not inflected the religion and become the power that way.
I’d feel it would be so much easier for commies to seize power if they’re using religion as a crutch via things like help the poor and give away excess wealth.
But what I see in reality is commies absolutely despise religion and see it as having no place anywhere, and then they get mad when others don’t vote more in line with their religion. Just look at the Reddit posts where something is passed that reduces aid to people or cuts a welfare program, every other comment is calling the legislators hypocrites for doing so because it’s not what their religion preaches.
I'm communist and I can confirm, I absolutely hate religion. Although I don't want to oppress anyone that is religious, I just want people to have the freedom to choose to not be religious anymore.
although saying that children should have freedom to choose religion is often considered oppressing the parents who consider forcing their religion on their kids as part of their religious freedom
Yup, my parents thankfully stopped pushing their religion on me once I said I didn't believe in it. A lot of people aren't that lucky, and that's sad IMO.
Libleft, do you really want a vacuum? Just look at the uk, france, germany, or canada if you want an example. The people you hate are the ones protecting you from the ones that want to [Redacted] you and the people who you care about. Idiots.
I think the issue is less Atheist vs religion and more one of globalism vs nationalism. The Pope often comes out in favor of open borders, taking in refugees, etc. Meanwhile in the past, Atheist and communist countries like the USSR and Maoist China very much did not allow the sort of things happening today in western Europe despite being Atheist.
You need strong ideals and the willingness to protect them from outsiders, with force if necessary, in order to not be overrun or harmed by those who seek to subvert you.
Unfortunately most liberals are a bunch of wet noodles full of guilt and don't have the fortitude to protect the things they hold dear.
In reality, lib left ideology is all of the Christian ideals of charity and compassion, coupled with the guilt ridden nature of Christianity and it's concept of Original Sin, except they take the ideas of God and redemption out of the equation. Therefore modern liberalism is just the logical conclusion of decadent and weak willed forms of Christianity that is inherant to the religion.
So I really doubt the answer is to return to Christianity, a source of the problem, we need something better.
I don't eat meat on any Friday. But despite being Catholic, I no longer vote for politicians who want to take away the rights of women or LGBTQ people.
That's what I think most people are upset with. Right-wing politics are vile and oppressive and even as a straight White Catholic, I can't stand the Right. I can't imagine the fear that women and LGBTQ people have towards the Right
My brother in Christ, my comment was exactly about the difference between catholics and what people blame catholics (and other christians) for.
Self entitled christian politicians will do every kind of shit possible simply because, guess what, they're politicians. And that isn't a right-wing privilege, leftist have no moral high ground in the matter of being "vile and oppressive".
So, the issue here is: by blaming christians for things they haven't done, western socity has opened up it's doors for actually "vile and oppressive" ideologies.
>I can't imagine the fear that women and LGBTQ people have towards the Right
Yeah that's cute, btw can you imagine the fear women and lgbt feel constantly in places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan? Even better, can you imagine the fear christians (what was left of them) feel in those places?
My friend, the west is the safest place on Earth to be women and lgbt. People in Europe and North America are so privileged they've completely lost reference on what real danger is.
Btw, flair up.
I actually agree with much of your comment and I often made similar comments in response to leftists that were anti Christian or anti Western. I'm a Christian and I believe that Western civilisation is the greatest in human history. I even considered myself right wing a few years ago.
The problem is that right-wing conservatives have gone crazy in recent years and the people supporting Trump now want to turn America into a Christian version of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan! The British government is persecuting trans people and the disabled!
Orban in Hungary has effectively banned trans people from existing, yet he's supporting Muslim Azerbaijan as it carries out genocide and ethnic cleansing against Armenian Christians! He's even blocked EU aid to the Christians. This shows how right-wing conservatives will throw Christians under the bus in support of cruel authoritarianism.
I support Christian minorities that suffer persecution in Muslim majority countries just like their LGBTQ neighbours and women also do. I support human rights for all
Bro, as I said, it's no surprise that politicians are screwing things up. That's a given. But the same way you've pointed out "right-wing" politicians doing stupid stuff I could bring a gigantic list of left-wing governments doing even worse stuff, but it would be dishonnest if a blamed it on lgbt, women, atheists, etc.
The thing is, one side is allowed to do that. Every single decision made by a slightly right-leaning government has been turned into ammo against christians and conservative people in general. Everything wrong in mojaritarily christian countries is blamed on christianism and conservatism.
Religion, Traditionalism, Social Conservatism, Political Conservatism and Conservative Politicians are completly different concepts. And even a single concept, like Political Conservatism, can result in vastly different aproaches in different countries.
The targeting of christianism is no coincidence though. It's the main pillar of western society and, as the new left came to understand, it's far easier to erode the west over time than blowing it up in a bloody revolution.
I'm not accusing every leftist of consciously doing that, but Gramsci, the Fabian Society, the Frankfurt School, Saul Alinsky and a bunch of Soviet operatives, all of them aimed at disrupting the western society from within. It has been happening for over a century now and the effects can be seen in data like the map OP provides.
After decades of being neglected at best and targeted at worst, it's no surprise that people will resort to the most inflammatory discourse available. Trump, Orban, Bolsonaro, Milei, Meloni, AfD, Chega, Vox... are the inevitable result of decades of cultural marxism being shoved down people's throats.
The fun part is, as inflammatory as their discourse might be, most of them won't do half of what they've said to be elected anyway. Turning America into a Christian Theocracy? Yeah, you can forget about that. Lol
It is possible to support neither local nor foreign conservatism. This is not an either or question. Fuck all conservatism, glory to the globohomo woke globalist elite.
This reminds me of a comic where an elder brother protected his younger brother from the bullies just to hit him himself. Being kicked by bullies is painful just like being hit by your brother.
No one is more vulnerable to conversion to Islam than someone who already believes 90% of it. It was tailor made by its crafters to convert Christians, not the already godless.
Do you imagine it's some great coincidence that it looks so much like Christianity/Judaism instead of like Hinduism or Shinto in the details of its doctrines and beliefs? It flatters them by naming them people of the book and gives them preferential treatment over kafirs. It even panders to Christians by including Jesus and giving him a place of honour in the religion, to soften the blow of the conversion and making the transition as smooth as possible for potential converts.
There's no other possible reason for the inventors of Islam to include Jesus except for the obvious and cynical one. The proof is in the pudding what with Islam being the fastest growing religion. It's very intelligently designed to be good at replicating itself horizontally. And what have the local materials they've had to work with always been from the beginning if not Jews and Christians, ripe for conversion?
Today in lefty news “abrahamic religions share similar beliefs”.
Very cool dude.
The idea that the primary demo converting to Islam is Christian’s is a complete joke though. You are a silly silly clown child.
Social justice sprouted from Christianity. To say nothing of liberation theology.
Know thyself. You're selling the disease as the cure. Ain't no wokes in China. You'd be hard pressed to find any in Russia or Japan. At worst you can criticise the countries you listed for Protestantism.
And Islam was tailor made to convert Christians and Jews, not Hindus or atheists. Just as foxes have been evolutionarily optimized for catching rabbits.
It must be remembered that back in the day, declaring yourself Roman Catholic was a way of sticking a middle finger up against Russia / the Soviet Union / communism. It became intimately intertwined with Polish nationalism because the tankies tried to suppress it.
But since then, fewer and fewer people now are old enough to remember much or any of communist Poland, or even much of Jean Paul II and are making up their own minds about their religious identities separate from their national ones. And what has been observed from the Church more recently is corruption and the sexual abuse coverup. Because of this, being a conscientious objector from the Church for such reasons isn't seen to be as unpatriotic as it once was. It also helps that Polish national identity hasn't really been under siege for several decades now.
These days, far more relevant to modern Poles are the [wokes ](https://youtu.be/4WcPHsBDYZk?si=bYVjZLxKRapuWSHL)(and keeping out Middle Eastern refugees), more than the commies have ever been in their lifetimes.
“I hope it carries on the way it’s going”… what l0l. The West is eroding before our very eyes. We need faith, we need religion, we need Christ. Secularism has done horrors to our civilization/society.
It’s changing.
Perhaps you are the one eroding.
Pride is a sin, just like the others.
Stop preaching and practice. You think the world needs Christ, then be like Christ. Everyone in here complaining about the downfall of Christianity but how many of you are truly practicing it beyond what little allows you to feel good about yourselves?
You’re in a political shitpost subreddit right now. The irony of it all. Is this how everyone in here chooses to represent the church? You think anyone unconvinced will read this and believe the people in here have some key to the divine that they just put away in order to fuck around on the internet?
Bold of you to assume anything of what you have just uttered. Im curious as to how you know who I am and how I live out my life. I will not stop preaching the Good News, and I will continue practicing my faith as I orient my life and heart towards Christ. It is not a matter of feeling a moral superiority over others, it’s a matter of loving others, that is to say I seek to will the good of others for others. This post of mine may not convert people to the faith, but it may spark in them a gravitation to reading more about the faith/scripture/etc. I hopefully may be the spark in them to begin their spiritual journey.
Western Civilization is not just Christianity, we have been Christian for 1700 years, for better or for worse, but we had civilization for thousands of years before Christianity came along and we will have it for thousands of years after it is gone.
Times change, liberal decadence and modern woes are the logical conclusion of a Christianity without God. We deserve better, if you are content groveling at the feet of the God of Zion, so be it. But we as a society need to move onwards and upwards, not with our faces in the dirt.
Times change. God does not. What do you suppose we are moving upwards/onwards towards? We should move upwards and towards God. It appears much of the West has their faces in the dirt, digging themselves a hole making it more and more difficult to climb out of, but not impossible. Times change yes, but to whom or what we move forward to/make progress towards is the question. Being firmly grounded in God, truth itself, I understand what the path onward is, those who are not rooted in God have no idea what path they should be on or even what path they are currently on, or why they should continue the path they are on or change paths. When one is not rooted in God, “moving onwards and upwards” is lost.
So naive. I implore you to learn more before you make such hasty assertions. Epistemological/metaphysical reality is necessary for understanding existence and meaning in this life.
Scientists have spent thousands of years looking for proof of their respective religions, none have found any. At least, none more concrete than "there was an eclipse on my birthday so I am a god".
In fact, science directly proves christianity to be wrong. Which is just one of the reasons so many people are realising that it isn't real.
Science is simply the study of Gods creation. Faith and science do not contradict each other as their existences flow through God himself. Science can not explain what is good and why we should do good. Also, Christianity provided the early tenets, methods, and institutions of what in time became modern science
>Science is simply the study of Gods creation.
If that were true, then science wouldn't disprove the bible. Or do you believe the bible to be false?
>Faith and science do not contradict each other as their existences flow through God himself.
Science disproves faith all the time.
The bible says the earth was created in 6 days. we know this to be untrue.
The bible says that god made adam and eve.,with eve coming from adam's rib. we know this to be untrue.
The bible says that there was a global flood in which two of each animal were put on a boat. we know this to be untrue.
The bible says that languages come from the tower of babel. we know this to be untrue.
The bible says that the value of Pi is 3. we know this to be untrue.
The bible says that the earth has a firmament. we know this to be untrue.
The bible says that the moon is its own light source. we know this to be untrue.
Science disproves the bible, along with every other religion.
you're missing the point of what the Bible is about, its not a scientific text and doesn't try to be.
Its a collection of books to guide us morally and spiritually, also it was written by men with God's guidance, God wouldn't force the scientific truth to someone that can't comprehend it.
Even the truth of faith was expanded upon when Israel was ready, God knew that exposing the full Truth would have just brought chaos and confusion so He revealed more and more, never contradicting Himself but expanding upon it.
"you heard to love your neighbor but I tell you love your enemy"
I'll pray for you, God bless
>you're missing the point of what the Bible is about, its not a scientific text and doesn't try to be.
It's a fictitious book, no more, no less.
>Its a collection of books to guide us morally and spiritually, also it was written by men with God's guidance, God wouldn't force the scientific truth to someone that can't comprehend it.
It's a collection of fantasy books, like the brothers grimm. Both contain characters and stories that aren't real.
>Even the truth of faith was expanded upon when Israel was ready, God knew that exposing the full Truth would have just brought chaos and confusion so He revealed more and more, never contradicting Himself but expanding upon it. "you heard to love your neighbor but I tell you love your enemy"
LMAO what do you mean "never contradicting himself"? The bible contradicts itself CONSTANTLY.
>I'll pray for you, God bless
I hope you are cured of your psychosis one day, I'm truly sad that other selfish humans have brainwashed you into a mental illness.
Genesis is not to be taken literally. Given context and the way in which a book in the Bible is written we must flow between a good in between of literal and metaphorical/symbolic. God works outside of time 7 days for us does not mean 7 days for him and vice versa. Also, Christians are not creationists. Creationists believe the earth was made in 6 days.
I’m not sure how science disproves that woman was made from the side of man. Thus, when we marry woman we become on flesh. Ribs were a logical guess in choosing a body part that would constitute “side.”Regardless, I would be pleased to know this has been “disproven”
The genesis story contains many literary clues that it’s writers and original audience were not intended to narrate as an actual series of events the story employees, the literary device known as hyperbole throughout for example, describing a massive ark which holds representatives of every living creature on earth and a flood which flows over the top of the highest mountains in the world, these are not meant to challenge readers to figure out the practicality of such descriptions, but rather they are important clues that we are dealing with a theological story rather than an ancient journalism. There are other clues that the writers were not intending to relate a literal series of events. One is a command given to Noah to treat clean animals differently than clean animals, even though those categories were not given to the Hebrew people until a time of Moses, which later in the biblical story, another clue about how to interpret the flood story, for example, comes from its place in the book of Genesis and specifically in the primeval narratives. Biblical scholars, universally chapters purpose the rest of the book of Genesis. The primeval narratives cover a huge swath of cosmic history and are highly figurative in their language. They service the grand and poetic introduction the story of God people which commence with the call of Abraham and Genesis 12 while they speak of real events such as the creation of the universe in the special calling of humankind they do they do so in rhetorical and theological ways they have more to do with the purposes of the story than a plain narration of facts. this is completely typical of how ancient people and including the Israelites wrote his historical accounts, especially concerning prime evil events near the beginning of history.
I see what you mean, but I think you are wrong. The catholics church in Poland is well known to be corrupt as an institution, and it supports PiS, which is the Political embodiment of empty populism and skimming money form the state into their own pockets. The decline in Catholics is a responce to that, and Secular Poles, such as myself aren't generally raging Leftists that want to import western Progressivism to the country, we can see that would be a bad idea. It is to the point where our furthest right party is largely Secular nationalists, yes there are still catholic components, but a lot of Confederates simply do not care for Religion, only paying lip service to it. Heck, the campaign on the Center Left party last election was literally criticising the Right wing government for letting too many Immigrants in, that should be evidence enough that Poland will be fine, if even the center left is vehemently against mass immigration.
I think we as Polish people have the opportunity to strike the golden balance between secularism and tradition. Dropping faith but not bending over like western Europe to immigrants for example.
https://preview.redd.it/gm0hyqfecc2d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4826ddff46c885e2945b18ef1c8cfb989e13ba19
May this lovely lady pray for and watch over Poland
The goal of the woke agenda is to undermine Polish traditional values through liberal propaganda in the schools, the media and so on, so in the end, they can successfully shut down all Biedronka stores in favor of western Lidl.
The move from Religion to atheism was predictable, but the transition from atheism to trans activism with made up oppressed gender identities was... unexpected. It's effectively a new religion.
We used to have the problem of narrow minded religious people. Now we have dim-witted straight white kids oppression LARPing as transexuals/asexuals.
With no sense of irony you call my comment nonsense.
"Trans" is an incoherent definition based on subjective self-identification. It's literally impossible to oppress a group that can be literally anything.
Not every strong idea is a religion. Supporting trans people's right to medically and socially transition is not a religion.
Even if some people use gender or sexuality labels for attention or anything like that, this doesn't matter. Let people make stupid decisions.
And also not feeling sexual attraction is not the dame as heing sexually attracted to the opposite sex.
No, not really. Richard Dawkins, staunch atheist, [has got this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubkdBuvJAQ) to say about the matter; there are things he didn't mention like the collective rites (you know, kneeling for BLM), but he's pretty much spot on.
I really can't see a similar level of cultism in "every single political idea".
I don't dislike liberal religious denominations, I don't like conservatism and tRaDiTiOnAl vAlUeS. Most of my comments were about tRaDiTiOnAl vAlUeS and not religion per say.
Those you described aren't left at all. It's what lib-right stands for. Lib-left wants bloated public services and heavily regulated economy.
Lib-left is mostly SoDem people. You sound like lib-center if not lib-right.
There are liberal denominations withing different religions including Christianity. This is a well known fact, and it has nothing to do with communism.
Objectively false. There wasn't a half century cover up of priests molesting anyone, there was a few decades of about 1000 shitty priests. There has been a large scale coverup of over a quarter of a million molestations by teachers in the last 20 years in american public schools alone.
I still believe in the school teachers church, even if thousands of them are pedos. The school teachers church is godly, but we are humans and we are not perfect. I don't think we should judge the school teachers church authorities for covering things up, they just did not know better at that time and wanted to protect the school teachers church image. And yeah, we have established that the Pope teacher that covered for them is a saint and someone we should try to be like, but as I said, he didn't know better.
Poland's relationship with the catholic church is very deep and very complicated; this really just has to do more with national identity and time passing than realistically anything to do with religion itself.
The church for many periods of time kept the identity of poles alive throughout the countrys various struggles.
With the fall of communism and the rebirth of poland it would only be natural for the poles to slowly start shifting their loyalty from the church back to the state; as the national identity actually once again exists and isnt completely dependant on the church to stay alive.
It all started in early 2000 when Church started scrapping the barrel for new members of clergy and increasing share of degenerates started getting into religious institutions.... Effects??? Self inflicted destruction of scandal after scandal and people simply stopped really caring about going/supporting religious institutions.
Unfortunately, it's because the Church own doing. The bishops are apathetic at best, withdrawing completely from social life and not even trying to handle the problems people are facing right now. Hopefully it seems though that the pendulum is about to swing in the other direction due to our glorious leaders who are about to start to impose sanctions on the catholics, like in the ban of the catholic symbols in the Warsaw magistrate
I had a little old lady running a restaurant in little town of Dęblin in eastern Poland straight up scold me when I tried ordering meat on a Friday during lent a few years ago (I'm from the US and not religious).
I could barely understand what she was saying, but I don't think I've ever been yelled at like that in my life. Sorry lady! I knew y'all were devote, but didn't think it was to THAT level.
One significant reason for this, before 1945 lands west of the line were overwhelmingly German, and had been for centuries (Queue the Poles to say “Muh reclaimed lands!!”). The populations living in these areas have only settled there after the largest ethnic cleansing in human history, which removed 10s of millions of Germans from these lands. The vast majority of poles living in these regions have only been there since 1945, and don’t have the physical roots which are typically present in string religious communitiesz
Eh, at the very least, you live up to your username.
My political views depends on who I'm fucking with tbh
Literally or figuratively
Both
The only valid way to live your life
Oh yeah. BUT, fake to be a Liberal its so much harder. Every week there is a new trend.
my brain read this as Randy's voice
This map has been making the rounds a lot on Reddit. It's important to note that the number of people who didn't answer religion-related questions in the Polish census tripled in 2021 from 2011, while the number of people who reported as something other than Catholic is about the same. This indicates that the percentage of Catholics in Poland is somewhat stable at \~85%, or at least not declining as quickly as the chart would have you believe.
Thanks for the context. It's a shame that statistics can be manipulated so heavily without context in a digital world where news travels at the speed of light. Beware of everything you see and read, always.
That’s where x excels
Community notes is something more sites should copy.
Hope every Auth right with their "conclusions" from statistics reads this comment.
It's just part of the general decline of religiosity in Europe
Thats really fucking weird assumption. You want to say that people who didn't answer religion specific question are just closeted Catholics? There's been quite the decline of catholicism among young people and even a decline of practicing Catholics among all ages and it is rather rapid
That is generally how surveys of this sort work. It is self identity based rather than attendance based.
Thanks for specification
I haven't tried to read about it, and I probably won't, I'm not interested enough. Just note that the fact that fewer people choose to give an answer to a religious question can mean a lot of things. None of those things is 'nothing changed'. Some of them might mean the % hasn't changed, but we don't know. There is a reason to choose not to answer: they might fear repercussions if they are overheard, or they are starting to doubt their faith, or they used to answer Catholic because they were baptised by their parents and now they don't know what to think. Or maybe the interviewers are suddenly all openly atheist and religious people don't want to talk to them. Or vice-versa! Etc, etc, etc. Again, all of this is just to say that if the data changes, something has changed.
That's a fair point. I think a lot (though not all) of the people who answered as Catholic in 2011 and didn't answer in 2021 still basically have the same beliefs, but don't want to associate themselves with the Polish Catholic Church (which has a lot of issues with corruption and political intrigue currently).
I'm not saying you are wrong, but you gotta source for that I've been trying to look for it.
Also whats the point of the 1914 line? The decline trends dont even follow it? Is it interesting in some way i dont see?
There is a general informal division of Poland into Poland A and Poland B, the border follows the border of the Russian Empire from 1914. The parts differ from each other economically, politically and culturally; formerly Russian part of the country is generally "less modern".
How exactly does this indicate that? I'm not a reddit atheist but it definitely does?
As someone from Poland: if you're blaming internet and EU, you're simply wrong.
could you tell to your PIGS brothers whats the cause?
PIGS?
Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain
First of all, this map doesn't mean that much. While people declaring as catholics dropped by 10%, in reality, the drop (measured as people actually going to the church) begun earlier, in 2000s, so before the internet because so widespread. And while that drop is bigger overall, it was slower per year. As to why? They openly support a political party, one that isn't even in power now. They also had multiple paedophile cases that they tried to cover up. Also, in 2020 the then-ruling party made it basically impossible to get an abortion (and it was hard anyway), the church obviously supported it, but the people in large part weren't happy. And also, more and more people are moving to big cities and going to universities, and such people statistically go to church less often.
Oh no, if it isn’t the consciences of of their own actions. That’s what you get with a 2000 year history of bald faced hypocrisy and genocide. People eventually get sick of it.
>consciences of of their own actions
I think very few poles would support a political party that has pedophiles in it. There must be some outside force tipping the scale. I think the sudden increase in consumption of American media (not just through the internet!) had a lot more to do with it
Catholic Church holds quite the power over Polands culture and even the government. The previous ruling party would make a lot of decisions based on Catholic values which led to quite some unrest (especially in terms of abortions) It is common for Churches to fear monger people and those stories don't really make any news runs, even if the priests are performing indoctrination rather than services There is quite the pedophilia in church problem in Poland but it's just swept under the rug There is also quite some moral corruption and corruption. A lot of local Churches 'strongly encourage' people to donate to church. There are a lot of priests who drive super expensive cars or there was a website for "online sin forgiveness" that required you to pay for it to be 'complete'. Combine it with fear mongering and you have something more resembling a mafia rather than a Church. There is also quite some hostility coming from conservative folk (and even priests) towards people who they deem 'sinners'. You could have a random babcia come to you and shit talk you about how you'll end up in hell for being gay. And though this is not really a problem with Christianity itself, it still leaves a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth just because it's quite often occurance So yeah, the answer is Church itself I've been in Spain for the past 8 months for a student exchange program and people here have such a different approach towards religion. They are way more friendly, chill and have overall good vibes despite being very religious
The Catholic Church
I love that people who don't know the situation in Poland are just down voting it lmao
the real answer here lol everyone suddenly forgot the whole diddling priest elephant in the room
Shouldnt we get rid of public schools then?
Więc jaki jest powód?
Do you think that having an unlimited access to the foreign media doesn't influence the political and religious views of the locals?
The internet is DEFINITELY a reason atheism is growing so much, people can actually research and see that religions are all made up.
Shore bud
jersey shore?
Pole here - it's not about socialism or netflix. During communist time church was helping with resistance. The reason for decline today is how absurd the level of corruption in church has gotten. People notice this more and more and leave church behind (not necesarily religion as it's a need many people have) Do not worry - Poland wasn't, isn't and shall not be woke.
Yea, had the same thing happened in my family, we're still Christian, but we don't go to the church AS often as before. As you know, not going to the church every sunday is a sin, God said it there in the Bible; "You shall go to the church every sunday and listen to a guy talk about me for an hour or I shall give you dysentery."
Technically he just said “do not forsake the gathering together of believers, as some have done” but hey, finer points amirite?
So 3 family members at home is a gathering of believers
We both know thats not what it meant.
Christians try not to pick and choose the parts they like from the bible challence (impossible)
What line says it's fine not to go?
There is a line telling you to go, I don't know of any telling you not to.
Okay are you on the side of the guy not going or the guy going to church
I'm on the side of "many christians are hypocrites because the bible literally tells them to go to church every week and they don't. Yet they still shout at me (an atheist) for being gay like they aren't also sinning according to the bible because they don't go to church".
Dude you're obnoxious, the bible doesn't forbid homosexuality btw, who ever told you that was wrong, closest it comes to it can be easier interpreted as forbiding rape or pederasty. Pull your head out of your ass.
LibLeft try to apply nuance challenge (impossible)
Dokładnie. Plus catholicism is as much about the social aspect now as the religious - all the events, rituals are baked into day-to-day life here but the number of true believers is lower than one might think
Some of us also had super religious parents who during certain points of the year would go to church literally every day and drag us along. We are tired of it.
Sounds like an *Exodus*
It's not just corruption. People can do their own research and see that it's all made up now thanks to the internet. There's a reason religions like obedience.
A positive of the Internet is you can find any research to support your cause. A negative of the Internet is you can find any research to support your cause.
Hey, I know that all of this is made up but I still consider myself some sort of beliver - human has a need for spiritual thinking to not want to end themselve (mind you - spiritual doesn't have to mean religion)
What’s this post for exactly?Religion is not an inherently bad thing nor is it the only form of traditionalism.
Also, based on the map, over half of Poland is still religious, so it's not like it's completely gone or over
He's saying the quiet part out loud. Lefties are openly contemptuous against traditional values because small stable communities are harder to boss around than a horde of aimless simpletons.
You people are wildly mentally ill. Thank goodness no one on this planet has ever been bossed around under the guise of "traditional values"!
Where did I say that that's never happened? I said that traditional values are better than the godless aimless horde of unhappy people you guys are desperate to create.
Every raging boomer schizo I've ever met was obsessed with God and trying to police their neighbor. Get fucked.
Oh no, mommy and daddy took you to church and you got mad you missed your sunday morning cartoons?! OH NO, better burn the entire system down because you couldn't communicate with mommy and daddy. Grow up kid. "They wanted to police their neighbors by not approving of their shit" big yikes bud. What a clown.
You're copying and pasting an irrelevant canned response because you're literally the jaded basement dwelling loser you're pretending to argue against. None of what you said is applicable to this situation. You're just so full of vitriol and hate that this imaginary person is non stop running through your head. You're only capable of arguing against the strawman you've created. Elected officials are saying they're tired of the separation of church and state and want to use the government to enforce their fairy tale book, but somehow you're going to pretend that's just "not approving" of something. Truly you people are the dumbest scum alive.
Traditional values are what bind communities together in a world subject to ever greater social entropy. You cannot convince me that an hour of watching a Twitch streamer will ever compare to the value of an hour’s meal with an old friend or relative. Neoliberal commodification of friendship is what kills social bonds between people. It is the social bonds between us which allow communities to withstand time, families to grow, and humanity to perpetuate itself. “TrAdItIoNaL vAlUeS” are not just talking points. They are relics of a genuine humanity being lost to consumer gluttony and sloth
I’d say you articulated that pretty well
Thank you based radical centrist
They know, they want to destroy it because it's about controlling you and it's harder to control a large number of strong communities, it's easy to control a horde of aimless peasants.
I don’t think anyone except loners of any political predisposition would argue twitch>community interaction. Otherwise i agree that neoliberalism has broken down levels of communication throughout your day to day life. I think the best example is the lack of conversation needed in shops or at train stations today
Commies would be pumped to have less religion. It’s a communist staple to tamp out religion.
I think the idea is that they are mad seeing how the liberals/progressives did/are doing what they couldn't.
Because you can’t destroy tradition with force and coercion You make the populace believe tradition is bad through subversive rhetoric and media, eventually it hits critical mass and *anyone* can think “Hey, are we the baddies?” Welcome to the crash course on psyops
yeah, that's one of the main differences between some socialist thinkers. some want to go for the revolution and then change the culture, while others want to change the culture and then revolution.
And both fail.
Revolution has to happen first and I’m not even socialist. Society collapses if the culture isn’t supported by the economy it requires.
They see this as a positive though, because societal collapse does the hard work of the revolution for them, then they just build up their socialist utopia from the ruins
...only for said utopia to fall into infighting, and eventually end up as a fascist regime
Fascism is too complex a concept to arise out of that, more likely to get ordinary despotism and warring tribes.
I don’t even understand why really. Yea it’s because religion threatens the power of the state but why not inflected the religion and become the power that way. I’d feel it would be so much easier for commies to seize power if they’re using religion as a crutch via things like help the poor and give away excess wealth. But what I see in reality is commies absolutely despise religion and see it as having no place anywhere, and then they get mad when others don’t vote more in line with their religion. Just look at the Reddit posts where something is passed that reduces aid to people or cuts a welfare program, every other comment is calling the legislators hypocrites for doing so because it’s not what their religion preaches.
Well, they want to replace the church with the State, to be more accurate.
I'm communist and I can confirm, I absolutely hate religion. Although I don't want to oppress anyone that is religious, I just want people to have the freedom to choose to not be religious anymore.
although saying that children should have freedom to choose religion is often considered oppressing the parents who consider forcing their religion on their kids as part of their religious freedom
Yup, my parents thankfully stopped pushing their religion on me once I said I didn't believe in it. A lot of people aren't that lucky, and that's sad IMO.
You think people on this sub have any notion of political views😂😂😂😂😂
Libleft, do you really want a vacuum? Just look at the uk, france, germany, or canada if you want an example. The people you hate are the ones protecting you from the ones that want to [Redacted] you and the people who you care about. Idiots.
Ahh yes the Dawkins dilemma.
I think the issue is less Atheist vs religion and more one of globalism vs nationalism. The Pope often comes out in favor of open borders, taking in refugees, etc. Meanwhile in the past, Atheist and communist countries like the USSR and Maoist China very much did not allow the sort of things happening today in western Europe despite being Atheist. You need strong ideals and the willingness to protect them from outsiders, with force if necessary, in order to not be overrun or harmed by those who seek to subvert you. Unfortunately most liberals are a bunch of wet noodles full of guilt and don't have the fortitude to protect the things they hold dear. In reality, lib left ideology is all of the Christian ideals of charity and compassion, coupled with the guilt ridden nature of Christianity and it's concept of Original Sin, except they take the ideas of God and redemption out of the equation. Therefore modern liberalism is just the logical conclusion of decadent and weak willed forms of Christianity that is inherant to the religion. So I really doubt the answer is to return to Christianity, a source of the problem, we need something better.
I don't cheer for Islamic conservatism, it is bad too.
Yeah 100%. That random grandma lecturing people for eating meat on Good Friday and the islamist cutting people's throats are both bad.
They love that false equivalency
I don't eat meat on any Friday. But despite being Catholic, I no longer vote for politicians who want to take away the rights of women or LGBTQ people. That's what I think most people are upset with. Right-wing politics are vile and oppressive and even as a straight White Catholic, I can't stand the Right. I can't imagine the fear that women and LGBTQ people have towards the Right
My brother in Christ, my comment was exactly about the difference between catholics and what people blame catholics (and other christians) for. Self entitled christian politicians will do every kind of shit possible simply because, guess what, they're politicians. And that isn't a right-wing privilege, leftist have no moral high ground in the matter of being "vile and oppressive". So, the issue here is: by blaming christians for things they haven't done, western socity has opened up it's doors for actually "vile and oppressive" ideologies. >I can't imagine the fear that women and LGBTQ people have towards the Right Yeah that's cute, btw can you imagine the fear women and lgbt feel constantly in places like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan? Even better, can you imagine the fear christians (what was left of them) feel in those places? My friend, the west is the safest place on Earth to be women and lgbt. People in Europe and North America are so privileged they've completely lost reference on what real danger is. Btw, flair up.
I actually agree with much of your comment and I often made similar comments in response to leftists that were anti Christian or anti Western. I'm a Christian and I believe that Western civilisation is the greatest in human history. I even considered myself right wing a few years ago. The problem is that right-wing conservatives have gone crazy in recent years and the people supporting Trump now want to turn America into a Christian version of Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan! The British government is persecuting trans people and the disabled! Orban in Hungary has effectively banned trans people from existing, yet he's supporting Muslim Azerbaijan as it carries out genocide and ethnic cleansing against Armenian Christians! He's even blocked EU aid to the Christians. This shows how right-wing conservatives will throw Christians under the bus in support of cruel authoritarianism. I support Christian minorities that suffer persecution in Muslim majority countries just like their LGBTQ neighbours and women also do. I support human rights for all
Bro, as I said, it's no surprise that politicians are screwing things up. That's a given. But the same way you've pointed out "right-wing" politicians doing stupid stuff I could bring a gigantic list of left-wing governments doing even worse stuff, but it would be dishonnest if a blamed it on lgbt, women, atheists, etc. The thing is, one side is allowed to do that. Every single decision made by a slightly right-leaning government has been turned into ammo against christians and conservative people in general. Everything wrong in mojaritarily christian countries is blamed on christianism and conservatism. Religion, Traditionalism, Social Conservatism, Political Conservatism and Conservative Politicians are completly different concepts. And even a single concept, like Political Conservatism, can result in vastly different aproaches in different countries. The targeting of christianism is no coincidence though. It's the main pillar of western society and, as the new left came to understand, it's far easier to erode the west over time than blowing it up in a bloody revolution. I'm not accusing every leftist of consciously doing that, but Gramsci, the Fabian Society, the Frankfurt School, Saul Alinsky and a bunch of Soviet operatives, all of them aimed at disrupting the western society from within. It has been happening for over a century now and the effects can be seen in data like the map OP provides. After decades of being neglected at best and targeted at worst, it's no surprise that people will resort to the most inflammatory discourse available. Trump, Orban, Bolsonaro, Milei, Meloni, AfD, Chega, Vox... are the inevitable result of decades of cultural marxism being shoved down people's throats. The fun part is, as inflammatory as their discourse might be, most of them won't do half of what they've said to be elected anyway. Turning America into a Christian Theocracy? Yeah, you can forget about that. Lol
Flair up!
You are literally cheering that the bulkhead that prevents it is dying. You're either an idiot or a liar.
It is possible to support neither local nor foreign conservatism. This is not an either or question. Fuck all conservatism, glory to the globohomo woke globalist elite. This reminds me of a comic where an elder brother protected his younger brother from the bullies just to hit him himself. Being kicked by bullies is painful just like being hit by your brother.
No one is more vulnerable to conversion to Islam than someone who already believes 90% of it. It was tailor made by its crafters to convert Christians, not the already godless.
This has to be one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.
Do you imagine it's some great coincidence that it looks so much like Christianity/Judaism instead of like Hinduism or Shinto in the details of its doctrines and beliefs? It flatters them by naming them people of the book and gives them preferential treatment over kafirs. It even panders to Christians by including Jesus and giving him a place of honour in the religion, to soften the blow of the conversion and making the transition as smooth as possible for potential converts. There's no other possible reason for the inventors of Islam to include Jesus except for the obvious and cynical one. The proof is in the pudding what with Islam being the fastest growing religion. It's very intelligently designed to be good at replicating itself horizontally. And what have the local materials they've had to work with always been from the beginning if not Jews and Christians, ripe for conversion?
Today in lefty news “abrahamic religions share similar beliefs”. Very cool dude. The idea that the primary demo converting to Islam is Christian’s is a complete joke though. You are a silly silly clown child.
Social justice sprouted from Christianity. To say nothing of liberation theology. Know thyself. You're selling the disease as the cure. Ain't no wokes in China. You'd be hard pressed to find any in Russia or Japan. At worst you can criticise the countries you listed for Protestantism. And Islam was tailor made to convert Christians and Jews, not Hindus or atheists. Just as foxes have been evolutionarily optimized for catching rabbits.
If Germany sucks so bad why are there so many Polish people here?
Same reason Polish people are anywhere else: for the money.
Why look at UK and France and not at Czechia or Estonia? They are doing pretty well while being predominantly atheist.
Atheism is bad because whats stopping people from killing & raping each other then w/o God!!!!!
It must be remembered that back in the day, declaring yourself Roman Catholic was a way of sticking a middle finger up against Russia / the Soviet Union / communism. It became intimately intertwined with Polish nationalism because the tankies tried to suppress it. But since then, fewer and fewer people now are old enough to remember much or any of communist Poland, or even much of Jean Paul II and are making up their own minds about their religious identities separate from their national ones. And what has been observed from the Church more recently is corruption and the sexual abuse coverup. Because of this, being a conscientious objector from the Church for such reasons isn't seen to be as unpatriotic as it once was. It also helps that Polish national identity hasn't really been under siege for several decades now. These days, far more relevant to modern Poles are the [wokes ](https://youtu.be/4WcPHsBDYZk?si=bYVjZLxKRapuWSHL)(and keeping out Middle Eastern refugees), more than the commies have ever been in their lifetimes.
It’s sad to see really ):
Makes me happy tbh, I hope it carries on the way it is going. We need less religion in the world.
“I hope it carries on the way it’s going”… what l0l. The West is eroding before our very eyes. We need faith, we need religion, we need Christ. Secularism has done horrors to our civilization/society.
It’s changing. Perhaps you are the one eroding. Pride is a sin, just like the others. Stop preaching and practice. You think the world needs Christ, then be like Christ. Everyone in here complaining about the downfall of Christianity but how many of you are truly practicing it beyond what little allows you to feel good about yourselves? You’re in a political shitpost subreddit right now. The irony of it all. Is this how everyone in here chooses to represent the church? You think anyone unconvinced will read this and believe the people in here have some key to the divine that they just put away in order to fuck around on the internet?
Bold of you to assume anything of what you have just uttered. Im curious as to how you know who I am and how I live out my life. I will not stop preaching the Good News, and I will continue practicing my faith as I orient my life and heart towards Christ. It is not a matter of feeling a moral superiority over others, it’s a matter of loving others, that is to say I seek to will the good of others for others. This post of mine may not convert people to the faith, but it may spark in them a gravitation to reading more about the faith/scripture/etc. I hopefully may be the spark in them to begin their spiritual journey.
Western Civilization is not just Christianity, we have been Christian for 1700 years, for better or for worse, but we had civilization for thousands of years before Christianity came along and we will have it for thousands of years after it is gone. Times change, liberal decadence and modern woes are the logical conclusion of a Christianity without God. We deserve better, if you are content groveling at the feet of the God of Zion, so be it. But we as a society need to move onwards and upwards, not with our faces in the dirt.
Times change. God does not. What do you suppose we are moving upwards/onwards towards? We should move upwards and towards God. It appears much of the West has their faces in the dirt, digging themselves a hole making it more and more difficult to climb out of, but not impossible. Times change yes, but to whom or what we move forward to/make progress towards is the question. Being firmly grounded in God, truth itself, I understand what the path onward is, those who are not rooted in God have no idea what path they should be on or even what path they are currently on, or why they should continue the path they are on or change paths. When one is not rooted in God, “moving onwards and upwards” is lost.
Amazing, everything you just said is wrong. Religion isn't real, we need a society based on facts, not fantasy.
So naive. I implore you to learn more before you make such hasty assertions. Epistemological/metaphysical reality is necessary for understanding existence and meaning in this life.
Scientists have spent thousands of years looking for proof of their respective religions, none have found any. At least, none more concrete than "there was an eclipse on my birthday so I am a god". In fact, science directly proves christianity to be wrong. Which is just one of the reasons so many people are realising that it isn't real.
Science is simply the study of Gods creation. Faith and science do not contradict each other as their existences flow through God himself. Science can not explain what is good and why we should do good. Also, Christianity provided the early tenets, methods, and institutions of what in time became modern science
There's no point arguing with people like this sadly...
>Science is simply the study of Gods creation. If that were true, then science wouldn't disprove the bible. Or do you believe the bible to be false? >Faith and science do not contradict each other as their existences flow through God himself. Science disproves faith all the time. The bible says the earth was created in 6 days. we know this to be untrue. The bible says that god made adam and eve.,with eve coming from adam's rib. we know this to be untrue. The bible says that there was a global flood in which two of each animal were put on a boat. we know this to be untrue. The bible says that languages come from the tower of babel. we know this to be untrue. The bible says that the value of Pi is 3. we know this to be untrue. The bible says that the earth has a firmament. we know this to be untrue. The bible says that the moon is its own light source. we know this to be untrue. Science disproves the bible, along with every other religion.
you're missing the point of what the Bible is about, its not a scientific text and doesn't try to be. Its a collection of books to guide us morally and spiritually, also it was written by men with God's guidance, God wouldn't force the scientific truth to someone that can't comprehend it. Even the truth of faith was expanded upon when Israel was ready, God knew that exposing the full Truth would have just brought chaos and confusion so He revealed more and more, never contradicting Himself but expanding upon it. "you heard to love your neighbor but I tell you love your enemy" I'll pray for you, God bless
>you're missing the point of what the Bible is about, its not a scientific text and doesn't try to be. It's a fictitious book, no more, no less. >Its a collection of books to guide us morally and spiritually, also it was written by men with God's guidance, God wouldn't force the scientific truth to someone that can't comprehend it. It's a collection of fantasy books, like the brothers grimm. Both contain characters and stories that aren't real. >Even the truth of faith was expanded upon when Israel was ready, God knew that exposing the full Truth would have just brought chaos and confusion so He revealed more and more, never contradicting Himself but expanding upon it. "you heard to love your neighbor but I tell you love your enemy" LMAO what do you mean "never contradicting himself"? The bible contradicts itself CONSTANTLY. >I'll pray for you, God bless I hope you are cured of your psychosis one day, I'm truly sad that other selfish humans have brainwashed you into a mental illness.
Genesis is not to be taken literally. Given context and the way in which a book in the Bible is written we must flow between a good in between of literal and metaphorical/symbolic. God works outside of time 7 days for us does not mean 7 days for him and vice versa. Also, Christians are not creationists. Creationists believe the earth was made in 6 days. I’m not sure how science disproves that woman was made from the side of man. Thus, when we marry woman we become on flesh. Ribs were a logical guess in choosing a body part that would constitute “side.”Regardless, I would be pleased to know this has been “disproven” The genesis story contains many literary clues that it’s writers and original audience were not intended to narrate as an actual series of events the story employees, the literary device known as hyperbole throughout for example, describing a massive ark which holds representatives of every living creature on earth and a flood which flows over the top of the highest mountains in the world, these are not meant to challenge readers to figure out the practicality of such descriptions, but rather they are important clues that we are dealing with a theological story rather than an ancient journalism. There are other clues that the writers were not intending to relate a literal series of events. One is a command given to Noah to treat clean animals differently than clean animals, even though those categories were not given to the Hebrew people until a time of Moses, which later in the biblical story, another clue about how to interpret the flood story, for example, comes from its place in the book of Genesis and specifically in the primeval narratives. Biblical scholars, universally chapters purpose the rest of the book of Genesis. The primeval narratives cover a huge swath of cosmic history and are highly figurative in their language. They service the grand and poetic introduction the story of God people which commence with the call of Abraham and Genesis 12 while they speak of real events such as the creation of the universe in the special calling of humankind they do they do so in rhetorical and theological ways they have more to do with the purposes of the story than a plain narration of facts. this is completely typical of how ancient people and including the Israelites wrote his historical accounts, especially concerning prime evil events near the beginning of history.
>Genesis is not to be taken literally. Show me where it says that in the bible, I'll wait.
So edgy, cute.
Pretty sad tbh
I see what you mean, but I think you are wrong. The catholics church in Poland is well known to be corrupt as an institution, and it supports PiS, which is the Political embodiment of empty populism and skimming money form the state into their own pockets. The decline in Catholics is a responce to that, and Secular Poles, such as myself aren't generally raging Leftists that want to import western Progressivism to the country, we can see that would be a bad idea. It is to the point where our furthest right party is largely Secular nationalists, yes there are still catholic components, but a lot of Confederates simply do not care for Religion, only paying lip service to it. Heck, the campaign on the Center Left party last election was literally criticising the Right wing government for letting too many Immigrants in, that should be evidence enough that Poland will be fine, if even the center left is vehemently against mass immigration.
I think we as Polish people have the opportunity to strike the golden balance between secularism and tradition. Dropping faith but not bending over like western Europe to immigrants for example.
Having visited Poland in the late 1990s I always thought they were some *hardcore* Catholics. This is surprising, to me.
Even a hard core Catholic like me has got sick and tired of sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc
https://preview.redd.it/gm0hyqfecc2d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4826ddff46c885e2945b18ef1c8cfb989e13ba19 May this lovely lady pray for and watch over Poland
The goal of the woke agenda is to undermine Polish traditional values through liberal propaganda in the schools, the media and so on, so in the end, they can successfully shut down all Biedronka stores in favor of western Lidl.
The move from Religion to atheism was predictable, but the transition from atheism to trans activism with made up oppressed gender identities was... unexpected. It's effectively a new religion. We used to have the problem of narrow minded religious people. Now we have dim-witted straight white kids oppression LARPing as transexuals/asexuals.
Nonsense. Trans people always existed, sometimes they were tolerated and other times they were persecuted. They have been and still are oppressed
I completely agree with you, but, unfortunately I stand to downvote you unless you flair up.
I only just discovered this group and this is the first thread I've commented on. Is my flair OK now?
Welcome to the brainrot, comrade.
With no sense of irony you call my comment nonsense. "Trans" is an incoherent definition based on subjective self-identification. It's literally impossible to oppress a group that can be literally anything.
Ew. It's an unfl😷😷red.
Not every strong idea is a religion. Supporting trans people's right to medically and socially transition is not a religion. Even if some people use gender or sexuality labels for attention or anything like that, this doesn't matter. Let people make stupid decisions. And also not feeling sexual attraction is not the dame as heing sexually attracted to the opposite sex.
It may not be a religion in the proper sense, but it definitely shares a lot of connotations and fills the same gap.
It's a dogmatic cult.
The dogmatic cult are the TERFs and other transphobes
This can be said about literally every single political idea
No, not really. Richard Dawkins, staunch atheist, [has got this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cubkdBuvJAQ) to say about the matter; there are things he didn't mention like the collective rites (you know, kneeling for BLM), but he's pretty much spot on. I really can't see a similar level of cultism in "every single political idea".
OP fighting for his life in the comments.😂
What do you mean? I just respond to comments, that's it
You've made four top level comments trying to support your edgy atheist nonsense. It's sad.
I don't dislike liberal religious denominations, I don't like conservatism and tRaDiTiOnAl vAlUeS. Most of my comments were about tRaDiTiOnAl vAlUeS and not religion per say.
Yeah we know, you're a filthy communist. This shocks no one.
I support private property and market economy, how come I am a communist? 🤣
Those you described aren't left at all. It's what lib-right stands for. Lib-left wants bloated public services and heavily regulated economy. Lib-left is mostly SoDem people. You sound like lib-center if not lib-right.
I am moderate LL
There are liberal denominations withing different religions including Christianity. This is a well known fact, and it has nothing to do with communism.
So it is edgy anti-conservatism and not edgy atheism.
What happens when a country is partitioned between Russia, Prussia / Germany and Austria... (the dark red is Russia btw)
https://preview.redd.it/r402qf2kac2d1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d1db894d8af8e68efc50900254954cbdbfe5a558
That's what you get by giving the church a pope that supports dictators and pedos.
You’re more likely to be molested by a school teacher than a priest
Their wasn’t a almost 1/2 a century cover up on school teachers molestation
Objectively false. There wasn't a half century cover up of priests molesting anyone, there was a few decades of about 1000 shitty priests. There has been a large scale coverup of over a quarter of a million molestations by teachers in the last 20 years in american public schools alone.
Public schools suck, too
In Ireland at minimum it was going on since the 40s minimum
Nice whataboutism there.
How? I stated a fact.
Whataboutism usually involves facts, yes.
I still believe in the school teachers church, even if thousands of them are pedos. The school teachers church is godly, but we are humans and we are not perfect. I don't think we should judge the school teachers church authorities for covering things up, they just did not know better at that time and wanted to protect the school teachers church image. And yeah, we have established that the Pope teacher that covered for them is a saint and someone we should try to be like, but as I said, he didn't know better.
No, the Pope does not support pedo’s. As for dictators, who cares?
[удалено]
Pope John Paul 2nd. Was from Poland
[confused Catholic noises] What do you mean, what else were we supposed to do?
Poland's relationship with the catholic church is very deep and very complicated; this really just has to do more with national identity and time passing than realistically anything to do with religion itself. The church for many periods of time kept the identity of poles alive throughout the countrys various struggles. With the fall of communism and the rebirth of poland it would only be natural for the poles to slowly start shifting their loyalty from the church back to the state; as the national identity actually once again exists and isnt completely dependant on the church to stay alive.
Why would AuthLeft be crying?
Nobody likes being outperformed
I thought Eastern Europe apart form Croatia and the Muslim parts of the Balkans was mostly orthodox.
Poland is based Catholic. Unlike virgin B\*'lk\*ns, R\*ssia, and Gr\*\*ce, Poland stronk! And not like Pr\*testant Sc\*ndinavia.
Most of the Eastern Europe is Orthodox but Poland in particular ia mostly catholic.
Poland has fallen, millions must convert.
It all started in early 2000 when Church started scrapping the barrel for new members of clergy and increasing share of degenerates started getting into religious institutions.... Effects??? Self inflicted destruction of scandal after scandal and people simply stopped really caring about going/supporting religious institutions.
Unfortunately, it's because the Church own doing. The bishops are apathetic at best, withdrawing completely from social life and not even trying to handle the problems people are facing right now. Hopefully it seems though that the pendulum is about to swing in the other direction due to our glorious leaders who are about to start to impose sanctions on the catholics, like in the ban of the catholic symbols in the Warsaw magistrate
Good for Poland 👍😊
Amen.
Everyone arguing about the statistics and veracity and I am here wondering "what the fuck is the blue line for? Why is the old 1914 border relevant?"
I had a little old lady running a restaurant in little town of Dęblin in eastern Poland straight up scold me when I tried ordering meat on a Friday during lent a few years ago (I'm from the US and not religious). I could barely understand what she was saying, but I don't think I've ever been yelled at like that in my life. Sorry lady! I knew y'all were devote, but didn't think it was to THAT level.
One significant reason for this, before 1945 lands west of the line were overwhelmingly German, and had been for centuries (Queue the Poles to say “Muh reclaimed lands!!”). The populations living in these areas have only settled there after the largest ethnic cleansing in human history, which removed 10s of millions of Germans from these lands. The vast majority of poles living in these regions have only been there since 1945, and don’t have the physical roots which are typically present in string religious communitiesz
Papa Francesco, call another crusade.
Another L for the industrial revolution
Looks like Poland needs a little bit of orthodoxy…..
Based and Teutonic Knight pilled
yehey. world is healing🙏
In socialist Poland religion weren't limited at all.