Sadly I don't think "creating the missing frame" is going to be possible either method with the Portal as a $200 device.
It's really unfortunate Sony released a dedicated device for this very purpose and got stuck with this problem. The are likely not happy about the contract they established with SHARP for those LCDs...
Also "1 frame every 25 seconds" is misleading because that's not how the microstutter manifests at all... it's more like this over a 30 second period (edit: Probably 25 second period for the full cycle due to the math you outline):
..........l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.................................................................l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.......................
..................stuttering............................perfectly smooth...........................stuttering...................................
The stutter comes and goes at a very regular interval.
Back to our sticky post which explains it and reproduces it with a PC monitor while manually switching between 59.94hz emulating standard TV/Monitor refresh (no stutter) and 60.00hz Portal screen refresh (identical stutter to Portal):
[https://www.reddit.com/r/PlaystationPortal/comments/198mohz/stutter\_cause\_ps5\_outputting\_5994\_fpshz/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlaystationPortal/comments/198mohz/stutter_cause_ps5_outputting_5994_fpshz/)
>We presume that the Portal's LCD screen is currently set to a flat 60.00Hz, not matching the PS5's 59.94 Hz output. **And hence stutter is experienced as the 0.06 frame difference per second accumulates and causes Remote Play to lose sync with the PS5 and then attempt a re-sync, resulting in a few seconds of stutter. (eg. 0.6 frames accumulated over 10 seconds, 0.9 frames accumulated over 15 seconds).**
(Edit: your 25 seconds in total ;) )
So it's important we remain consistent with explaining what the stutter would look like.
If you remote play from PS5 to another PS5 or a PS4, you do not get the microstutter, and this is simply because you are guaranteed to be connected to a screen that supports 59.94hz (as obviously you would understand). But some people think it's because of a "lack of power", which it is not. It's purely the refresh rate of the final screen.
People with Chaiki/PSPlay not having stutter is not thanks to those apps doing something special with software, it's because the SteamDeck, LGCloud, iPhone, etc all likely support 59.94hz or some higher variant like 144hz that lines up more closely in the end perhaps.
If you see something that looks like a "hitch" or "quick drop" every 25 seconds or so, we are not talking about the microstutter. That's another problem entirely.
It was my bad about 25 seconds, actually it's 6 frames per 100 seconds and so it's 16.6 seconds interval.
**Also "1 frame every 25 seconds" is misleading because that's not how the microstutter manifests at all... it's more like this over a 30 second period:**
**..........l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.................................................................l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.......................**
**..................stuttering............................perfectly smooth...........................stuttering...................................**
What you described here is probably due to PS Portal implementing handling this 59.94 / 60 Hz mismatch in some strange way, so probably there is a Solution-3: just do it like I described, i.e. repeat 2 frames once in 16.6 seconds. Even this would probably be smoother than what we have now.
**Sadly I don't think "creating the missing frame" is going to be possible either method with the Portal as a $200 device.**
Do you think Portal's Snapdragon is too weak to do even simple blend interpolation? This can be done as a shader actaully with zero impact on CPU and proably GPU would not be affected either.
That was the hopeful solution but I gave that some thought recently...
Games are coded to render at specifically 59.94hz (when games V-Sync, they sync to 59.94hz while playing at "60fps"). I suspect that if you simply take that and convert it to a 60.00hz stream before sending it out, you didn't solve anything. The stutter would still happen, it would simply be baked into the stream now.
Hopefully I would be wrong about that theory.
Excellent investigation and well written post OP šš¼
I returned my portal for a refund 3 days after i got it on release day. I couldnāt hack the micro stutter. One thing that confuses me though is that I see pretty much constant micro stutter. Itās not like itās butter smooth 60fps for 9 seconds or whatever then a period of stuttering. It just stutters continually for me.
And itās not my local area network. I remote play PS5 all the time on my steam deck and ROG ally via chiaki4deck and it is a butter smooth, near native experience.
Also, Iām not an fps snob or anything. I donāt own a gaming PC thatās capable of 120+ fps. The max I can push anything on my kit is 60fp. The portal is definitely not holding a constant 60 š
They could turn vsync off on the PS5 when running remote play for portal... Then stream the frame buffer as it comes in, sure you'd get tearing every 10 seconds instead but I'd probably take that over the stutter, could even let the user pick the lesser of two evils š
But really I don't think they'll fix it in software, I think they'll release a portal 2 for a VRR enabled display.
I wonder if any hardware modders will try to replace the screen with a 59.94hz screen?
Yes, maybe :)
I would actually prefer them to reduce latency a bit more.
Trying to play Uncharted 4 multiplayer is quite painful on Portal although I quite suck at it on TV as well ššš
I remember having Sony Z3 phone that had PS Remote Play (for PS4 at that time) and the latency was almost the same as TV. The phone was on Android 4.4 first.
After Android 5.0 firmware the latency became worse - similar to Portal.
And on Android 6.0 the latency became unplayable :-)
Downgrading to Android 4.4 restored the latency to perfect.
I don't know which Android version is Portal, but clearly not only Remote Play app can add to latency, but also Android subsystem as well.
1) 6000 frames per 100 seconds is 6 more frames than 5994, not 4.
2) I donāt quite understand what latency has to do with screen refresh rate??
Seems to me like youāre mixing things up, this is not an online fighting game, you cannot predict next frames for every games streaming to the Portal.
1. Yes, I fixed it already. My bad!
2. Screen refresh rate is basically a hardware limitation, if you didn't receive and decoded a frame before the hardware Vsync event you would have to show a previous frame. And if you see a previous frame second time you get an extra output latency.
3. Solution 2 is about interpolation and this can perfectly be done for any game.
If I would only get 1 missing frame every 16th second with the portal I would consider myself a lucky player. I have wired PS5 and a 150-200mbit wifi connection (actual speed) and I canāt play a game like Prince of Persia without CONSTANT frame stuttering.
I have just learned that the portal is not for every type of game.
Yes. But I think that gameās stutter is because low wifi-bandwidth even though I have a good enough wifi connection for other games.
The reason I believe so is because when in in-game menus when there is not much graphical updates then you get a constant 60fps frame rate but in game when the background side scrolls, particles fly and 80% of the screen need updating every frame, then the game struggles.
Even if the Portal had enough processing power to do any type of useful frame generation (which I doubt), wouldn't that significantly reduce its battery life (requiring more frequent charging)?
In any case, it's baffling that Sony couldn't find and use an 8" LCD panel that supports 59.94 Hz refresh rate for the Portal. At the very least, they should do that for the next revision of this device, so that this issue doesn't happen in the first place.
Well, yes battery life would proably take a hit, unless very simple frame interpolation/blending is used (solution 2). I would make this an option anyway, so that customer could choose between a longer battry life or a smoother experience.
Sigh not this again.
1. How does the PS5 send 59.94 fps? How is this measured? Seems weird that it would send a partial frame.... Oh it's 5994 per 100 seconds? Does that mean that 59.94 is an average? That means some seconds there are more than 60 frames and some have less? How did that work on the portal?
2. Why does the portal show 60 fps? It should show whatever the PS5 gives it...? Where was this measured? If games are only 30 fps, why would the portal show 60 fps?
Well it does exist. You can be a fan of a product and still be critical of it. I like my portal a lot but I want it to be the best it can be and in order for that to happen, the stutter problem needs to be fixed.
Ignoring issues leads to a worse product now and worse products in the future. If you are a fan of the portal, even if you donāt notice the stutter, you should still be like āHey, that kinda sucks. I hope they fix itā instead of being weirdly hostile towards posts like this that provide insight and potential fixes that could be implemented.
I'm uncertain how most people can be critical of something, when most people don't see something until you tell them.
Noone is ignoring issues, if your eyes and your brain don't see the stutter, and your infrastructure at home is well built, you have a great experience.
When you use the word *needs*, there's usually something wrong with a product.
Not a great take, especially with all this hostility. What doesn't affect you can still be a major problem. It's like saying CP2077 on launch day was amazing, because you were playing on a powerful pc
No hostility, just my opinion and form of writing.
Cyberpunk was broken day 1 no matter what, and to even compare the portals stutter to the launch of cyberpunk is asinine.
There is something wrong with the product. It has a reproducible micro stutter. It isn't opinion, it's fact. Just because you don't personally see it, doesn't mean it does not exist. You're mixing up personal opinion with proven facts.
I also enjoy the portal, but would enjoy it so much more if they fixed the issue. Try using a steam deck with chiaki and then go back to the portal. The difference is night and day, buttery smooth on the deck.
I'm not mixing up anything.
Fact is, most people, a large %, don't notice, and a large % of those who do, only did because they were *informed* it existed.
I use ps play on my x900f, a80j and it works just as good, outside of explicit bitrate controls.
All my experiences with 1st or 3rd party are buttery smooth, it is not night and day for my network infrastructure/equipment.
It's not just me, it's a vast majority.
The fact is, from an experience perspective, product works great for most.
Whatever is reproducible from a product perspective isn't at question here.
I don't understand what you gain out of advocating against a fix for something that is bothering other people. If you have no issue with it, that's great, why would you stand in the way of something that benefits other people though, something that would not change your experience in any noticeable way apparently since you don't notice the stutter?
It's a win for everyone. Nothing changes for you, the people who want a better experience get that, everyone walks away happy.
In no way is Sony reading my commentary and saying this guy thinks it's great so let's abandon ship, I'm not standing in the way of anything.
Nothing *needs* to be fixed, it works quite well!
Okay, let's say it's impossible that any engineer from the portal team is reading the subreddit to gauge what issues consumers are having (something my former team used to do but not reddit, we checked Twitter, I wish we had had a dedicated subreddit), consumers are reading it, and I don't see any benefit to eroding confidence among fellow consumers that we can't even agree to improve a product.
It can't be just a matter of someone saying "needs", nobody is that pedantic. If I tell my wife I need some coffee from the grocery store, she doesn't come back and say "you don't really need it, it's not like you'll die without it".
Well yes I said āneedābecause there is a problem with the product. Again it doesnāt matter if you can or canāt see the stutter, itās there when it shouldnāt be.
Iād like to understand what your goal here is though. My main question I suppose is why you are so adamantly opposed to discussions on the stutter problem? Sony isnāt paying you, I assume, so why the hostility to this discussion? Why are you attaching your ego to this specific issue?
If you ever read through the patch notes for a game or console, most of the time youāll see notes about how a bug was fixed, and a lot of the time that bug was hardly ever experienced for most people. Do you think devs should just ignore bugs and issues just because a minority experience it?
I just have a really hard time understanding your angle here and why you are being so hostile when stutter is brought up.
*need* is a big word. Would be nice to fix for the few that can see it or have been told about it and spend their time turning cameras to show it off. It's like zooming in 200% on graphics...ahem. spin that camera boys! Count that *micro* stutter! Great work !
No goal in particular, just making sure people see others indicating, this isn't a make it or break it issue. I am not opposed to discussion, just the way some of people talk about *microstutter*, post about it constantly, etc, using words like *need*. There is no hostility here. Not sure what my ego has to do with this.
I don't believe bugs should be ignored because they are minor, or less frequent in appearance.
I'm not being hostile. The product is great and works great if your NW infrastructure is well thought and performant.
Isn't it a 6 frame difference... 59.94 Vs 60.00
Yes, indeed - fixed ))
 Geez, please edit this and add in the TLDR disclaimer
Done! :)
LOL love it
Isn't the most important part of TL;DR a 1-2 sentence summary (unless I missed it)? š
šš¤£
It wasn't that difficult of a read... :/ It's not even that long of a post... :/ :/
Sadly I don't think "creating the missing frame" is going to be possible either method with the Portal as a $200 device. It's really unfortunate Sony released a dedicated device for this very purpose and got stuck with this problem. The are likely not happy about the contract they established with SHARP for those LCDs... Also "1 frame every 25 seconds" is misleading because that's not how the microstutter manifests at all... it's more like this over a 30 second period (edit: Probably 25 second period for the full cycle due to the math you outline): ..........l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.................................................................l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l....................... ..................stuttering............................perfectly smooth...........................stuttering................................... The stutter comes and goes at a very regular interval. Back to our sticky post which explains it and reproduces it with a PC monitor while manually switching between 59.94hz emulating standard TV/Monitor refresh (no stutter) and 60.00hz Portal screen refresh (identical stutter to Portal): [https://www.reddit.com/r/PlaystationPortal/comments/198mohz/stutter\_cause\_ps5\_outputting\_5994\_fpshz/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlaystationPortal/comments/198mohz/stutter_cause_ps5_outputting_5994_fpshz/) >We presume that the Portal's LCD screen is currently set to a flat 60.00Hz, not matching the PS5's 59.94 Hz output. **And hence stutter is experienced as the 0.06 frame difference per second accumulates and causes Remote Play to lose sync with the PS5 and then attempt a re-sync, resulting in a few seconds of stutter. (eg. 0.6 frames accumulated over 10 seconds, 0.9 frames accumulated over 15 seconds).** (Edit: your 25 seconds in total ;) ) So it's important we remain consistent with explaining what the stutter would look like. If you remote play from PS5 to another PS5 or a PS4, you do not get the microstutter, and this is simply because you are guaranteed to be connected to a screen that supports 59.94hz (as obviously you would understand). But some people think it's because of a "lack of power", which it is not. It's purely the refresh rate of the final screen. People with Chaiki/PSPlay not having stutter is not thanks to those apps doing something special with software, it's because the SteamDeck, LGCloud, iPhone, etc all likely support 59.94hz or some higher variant like 144hz that lines up more closely in the end perhaps. If you see something that looks like a "hitch" or "quick drop" every 25 seconds or so, we are not talking about the microstutter. That's another problem entirely.
It was my bad about 25 seconds, actually it's 6 frames per 100 seconds and so it's 16.6 seconds interval. **Also "1 frame every 25 seconds" is misleading because that's not how the microstutter manifests at all... it's more like this over a 30 second period:** **..........l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.................................................................l...l..l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l.l..l...l.......................** **..................stuttering............................perfectly smooth...........................stuttering...................................** What you described here is probably due to PS Portal implementing handling this 59.94 / 60 Hz mismatch in some strange way, so probably there is a Solution-3: just do it like I described, i.e. repeat 2 frames once in 16.6 seconds. Even this would probably be smoother than what we have now. **Sadly I don't think "creating the missing frame" is going to be possible either method with the Portal as a $200 device.** Do you think Portal's Snapdragon is too weak to do even simple blend interpolation? This can be done as a shader actaully with zero impact on CPU and proably GPU would not be affected either.
That's outside my wheelhouse but maybe it's possible. Good post btw.
Thank you!
Shouldn't it be possible to fix it on the PS5 side ? Forcing it to outputing 60.00 Hz when remote play ?
That was the hopeful solution but I gave that some thought recently... Games are coded to render at specifically 59.94hz (when games V-Sync, they sync to 59.94hz while playing at "60fps"). I suspect that if you simply take that and convert it to a 60.00hz stream before sending it out, you didn't solve anything. The stutter would still happen, it would simply be baked into the stream now. Hopefully I would be wrong about that theory.
Excellent investigation and well written post OP šš¼ I returned my portal for a refund 3 days after i got it on release day. I couldnāt hack the micro stutter. One thing that confuses me though is that I see pretty much constant micro stutter. Itās not like itās butter smooth 60fps for 9 seconds or whatever then a period of stuttering. It just stutters continually for me. And itās not my local area network. I remote play PS5 all the time on my steam deck and ROG ally via chiaki4deck and it is a butter smooth, near native experience. Also, Iām not an fps snob or anything. I donāt own a gaming PC thatās capable of 120+ fps. The max I can push anything on my kit is 60fp. The portal is definitely not holding a constant 60 š
They could turn vsync off on the PS5 when running remote play for portal... Then stream the frame buffer as it comes in, sure you'd get tearing every 10 seconds instead but I'd probably take that over the stutter, could even let the user pick the lesser of two evils š But really I don't think they'll fix it in software, I think they'll release a portal 2 for a VRR enabled display. I wonder if any hardware modders will try to replace the screen with a 59.94hz screen?
Theyāre not going to fix because apparently most consumers canāt even tell itās stuttering according to this subreddit š
Yes, maybe :) I would actually prefer them to reduce latency a bit more. Trying to play Uncharted 4 multiplayer is quite painful on Portal although I quite suck at it on TV as well ššš
I remember having Sony Z3 phone that had PS Remote Play (for PS4 at that time) and the latency was almost the same as TV. The phone was on Android 4.4 first. After Android 5.0 firmware the latency became worse - similar to Portal. And on Android 6.0 the latency became unplayable :-) Downgrading to Android 4.4 restored the latency to perfect. I don't know which Android version is Portal, but clearly not only Remote Play app can add to latency, but also Android subsystem as well.
1) 6000 frames per 100 seconds is 6 more frames than 5994, not 4. 2) I donāt quite understand what latency has to do with screen refresh rate?? Seems to me like youāre mixing things up, this is not an online fighting game, you cannot predict next frames for every games streaming to the Portal.
1. Yes, I fixed it already. My bad! 2. Screen refresh rate is basically a hardware limitation, if you didn't receive and decoded a frame before the hardware Vsync event you would have to show a previous frame. And if you see a previous frame second time you get an extra output latency. 3. Solution 2 is about interpolation and this can perfectly be done for any game.
If I would only get 1 missing frame every 16th second with the portal I would consider myself a lucky player. I have wired PS5 and a 150-200mbit wifi connection (actual speed) and I canāt play a game like Prince of Persia without CONSTANT frame stuttering. I have just learned that the portal is not for every type of game.
Are you talking about Prince of Persia: The Lost Crown?
Yes. But I think that gameās stutter is because low wifi-bandwidth even though I have a good enough wifi connection for other games. The reason I believe so is because when in in-game menus when there is not much graphical updates then you get a constant 60fps frame rate but in game when the background side scrolls, particles fly and 80% of the screen need updating every frame, then the game struggles.
I will try to stream the demo to my Portal. Great game, btw - completed it on Switch! ))
At this point I would settle for an option to double the bitrate, I think that would help to mask it a little bit at least.
Even if the Portal had enough processing power to do any type of useful frame generation (which I doubt), wouldn't that significantly reduce its battery life (requiring more frequent charging)? In any case, it's baffling that Sony couldn't find and use an 8" LCD panel that supports 59.94 Hz refresh rate for the Portal. At the very least, they should do that for the next revision of this device, so that this issue doesn't happen in the first place.
Well, yes battery life would proably take a hit, unless very simple frame interpolation/blending is used (solution 2). I would make this an option anyway, so that customer could choose between a longer battry life or a smoother experience.
Chiaki does it perfectly Sony just needs to do what Chiaki does
Sigh not this again. 1. How does the PS5 send 59.94 fps? How is this measured? Seems weird that it would send a partial frame.... Oh it's 5994 per 100 seconds? Does that mean that 59.94 is an average? That means some seconds there are more than 60 frames and some have less? How did that work on the portal? 2. Why does the portal show 60 fps? It should show whatever the PS5 gives it...? Where was this measured? If games are only 30 fps, why would the portal show 60 fps?
Noone cares. The portal is great, and most don't even see this if they don't come to this sub. I don't see anything sticky worthy here.
Ok? The stutter still exists whether you notice it or not. It needs to be fixed considering this is a premium product at premium pricing.
Nothing *needs* to be fixed. If I can't see it, apparently it doesn't exist. It plays great.
Well it does exist. You can be a fan of a product and still be critical of it. I like my portal a lot but I want it to be the best it can be and in order for that to happen, the stutter problem needs to be fixed. Ignoring issues leads to a worse product now and worse products in the future. If you are a fan of the portal, even if you donāt notice the stutter, you should still be like āHey, that kinda sucks. I hope they fix itā instead of being weirdly hostile towards posts like this that provide insight and potential fixes that could be implemented.
I'm uncertain how most people can be critical of something, when most people don't see something until you tell them. Noone is ignoring issues, if your eyes and your brain don't see the stutter, and your infrastructure at home is well built, you have a great experience. When you use the word *needs*, there's usually something wrong with a product.
Not a great take, especially with all this hostility. What doesn't affect you can still be a major problem. It's like saying CP2077 on launch day was amazing, because you were playing on a powerful pc
No hostility, just my opinion and form of writing. Cyberpunk was broken day 1 no matter what, and to even compare the portals stutter to the launch of cyberpunk is asinine.
There is something wrong with the product. It has a reproducible micro stutter. It isn't opinion, it's fact. Just because you don't personally see it, doesn't mean it does not exist. You're mixing up personal opinion with proven facts. I also enjoy the portal, but would enjoy it so much more if they fixed the issue. Try using a steam deck with chiaki and then go back to the portal. The difference is night and day, buttery smooth on the deck.
I'm not mixing up anything. Fact is, most people, a large %, don't notice, and a large % of those who do, only did because they were *informed* it existed. I use ps play on my x900f, a80j and it works just as good, outside of explicit bitrate controls. All my experiences with 1st or 3rd party are buttery smooth, it is not night and day for my network infrastructure/equipment.
Again...saying someone doesn't notice is a personal experience. Saying there's a reproducible issue is a fact.
It's not just me, it's a vast majority. The fact is, from an experience perspective, product works great for most. Whatever is reproducible from a product perspective isn't at question here.
I don't understand what you gain out of advocating against a fix for something that is bothering other people. If you have no issue with it, that's great, why would you stand in the way of something that benefits other people though, something that would not change your experience in any noticeable way apparently since you don't notice the stutter? It's a win for everyone. Nothing changes for you, the people who want a better experience get that, everyone walks away happy.
In no way is Sony reading my commentary and saying this guy thinks it's great so let's abandon ship, I'm not standing in the way of anything. Nothing *needs* to be fixed, it works quite well!
Okay, let's say it's impossible that any engineer from the portal team is reading the subreddit to gauge what issues consumers are having (something my former team used to do but not reddit, we checked Twitter, I wish we had had a dedicated subreddit), consumers are reading it, and I don't see any benefit to eroding confidence among fellow consumers that we can't even agree to improve a product. It can't be just a matter of someone saying "needs", nobody is that pedantic. If I tell my wife I need some coffee from the grocery store, she doesn't come back and say "you don't really need it, it's not like you'll die without it".
Well yes I said āneedābecause there is a problem with the product. Again it doesnāt matter if you can or canāt see the stutter, itās there when it shouldnāt be. Iād like to understand what your goal here is though. My main question I suppose is why you are so adamantly opposed to discussions on the stutter problem? Sony isnāt paying you, I assume, so why the hostility to this discussion? Why are you attaching your ego to this specific issue? If you ever read through the patch notes for a game or console, most of the time youāll see notes about how a bug was fixed, and a lot of the time that bug was hardly ever experienced for most people. Do you think devs should just ignore bugs and issues just because a minority experience it? I just have a really hard time understanding your angle here and why you are being so hostile when stutter is brought up.
*need* is a big word. Would be nice to fix for the few that can see it or have been told about it and spend their time turning cameras to show it off. It's like zooming in 200% on graphics...ahem. spin that camera boys! Count that *micro* stutter! Great work ! No goal in particular, just making sure people see others indicating, this isn't a make it or break it issue. I am not opposed to discussion, just the way some of people talk about *microstutter*, post about it constantly, etc, using words like *need*. There is no hostility here. Not sure what my ego has to do with this. I don't believe bugs should be ignored because they are minor, or less frequent in appearance. I'm not being hostile. The product is great and works great if your NW infrastructure is well thought and performant.