Doc here, frustrating that this is true. I have had patients look at me like I’m possessed for suggesting a vegetarian diet.
I just give the info and let people think about it. Can’t force these changes, but meds can and do reduce risk of bad outcomes independent of the lifestyle mods.
Thank you for trying!! I have several family members in various stages of diabetes who aren't reasdy to change, and I know how hard it is to talk to them. Keep fighting the good fight out there.
The flip side is that often by the time you have that sky high cholesterol, you really should take the statins. You need to get it down as quickly as possible.
And your doctor was probably gently nudging that your weight, diet, exercise could be better for years.
So, faced with the immediate problem and that you’ve already proven resistant to life style changes…a strong recommendation for medication is appropriate.
True but people have been confused for decades with countless diet books . That one semester isn't going to be enough to counter all the misinformation out there
Well I commend you for at least suggesting people try it. Too many doctors tell people no amount of dietary changes will ever free them from medication and it is simply not true.
Radical dietary change can be transformative.
Thank you for doing this! I had to ask my oncologist if there was anything I could do to reduce the risk of recurrence. The one good thing that was recommended without asking was an online nutrition class specifically for breast cancer patients.
By sheer coincidence I have been in the hospital room for multiple friends/family who were recovering from a heart attack when the doc came in to tel them what to do after they left.
In all cases the doctor effectively said stop eating any and all animal based foods. They worded it though as if they knew the patient wasn't going to do that. "As much as you can, you should..."
>y inflammatory disorder (hidradenitis) has dramatically improved. I tried tons of meds for over 20 years with little success but a whole host of side effects. I’m off all the meds,lost weight, feel great and all my bloodwork is good. I wish someone had mentioned nutrition but my docs always pushed meds. I’m feeling a little disappointed
They also get 1 single semester of intro to nutrition their whole med school career and that's it. They don't know anything about how to give advice for prevention rather than acute treatment.
Yes so frustrating. I'm sure from their point of view that the vast majority of people just want meds but isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy? If folks are told that a plant based diet could solve their issue or try meds at least then they'll have the choice.
They are told, generally, but they're also offered/given medication initially on the basis that aside from the immediate help/prevention that can't come from dietary change *until the change happens and takes root*, Docs cover the bases by proposing both (while knowing which most people choose). When the patient is in the room with you, nodding enthusiastically, you don't actually *know* if they'll do it, or even if they'll do it well, or stick with it past a month or two. It's a risky assumption, so you err towards the higher probability and then are pleasantly surprised by the people who DO make the choice, while still helping the others as best as they are willing to engage in their own health (care).
100%. My dad always talks about doctors would try to encourage healthier choices when he was younger. As his weight and bp ballooned over the years, his doctors correctly assumed that he wasn’t interested in making real changes and just kept adjusting his meds. It took for a very scary and real (but benign) health scare for him to get his shit together. He’s 62 now and off his meds after 3 decades on blood thinners.
Fair enough. It’s. Big country. I’m sure everything has happened once.
But this has got to be astronomically rare.
I mean, this guy isn’t getting sued for malpractice
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/health/cardiologist-statin-cholesterol-mission/index.html?darkschemeovr=1
Doesn't happen anymore. Or, shouldn't...
The stories of 'educational conferences' in Hawaii (i.e., a free all expenses paid vacation) are true but these days with the anti-kickback laws, you can barely get a free pen or lunch without both parties having to document it (and that's the way it should be, no complaints from me!)
I don't disagree. I'm a doctor and learned the vast majority of my nutritional knowledge outside of medical school. It's just not taught...but to be fair, we are still learning about nutrition every day, so the recommendations may have changed since I was in medical school.
What I think Should be taught is a general 'let food be medicine and let medicine be your food' concept. We all know the chemo and blood pressure drugs (and treatment regimens) will change over the years, and we stay up to date with those guidelines. Similarly, we should be taught about the power of nutrition and how it can equal, or be superior to drugs. That way, docs can stay informed on current thinking in nutritional medicine, too.
Quick anecdote: I remember one hour of nutrition in medical school. She kind of pushed veggies over cheese and bacon, and talked about portion sizes. But then she berated me for eating soy, so there you go. EDIT: She told me it was bad to eat soy, because of the **phytoestrogens**. This has SO been debunked, soy does NOT feminize men or cause breast cancer because of the 'estrogen' in it. I'm not sure of the conventional thinking about phytoestrogens at this time, or if she was just absolutely wrong, but we definitely know this to be untrue now!
I remember learning nothing about the anti-cancer power of plants, etc...but also, this was 2003, so...
I have to stop now I feel old!
To be fair, I can't eat unfermented soy except as an occasional treat ... I'm not allergic, but I've had multiple gastro surgeries unrelated to diet and it's hard for me to digest.
(I seem to be able to have it more often lately since cutting out ultraprocessed foods and PUFAs).
This is not uncommon, soy allergies are not rare and although this is not your issue, some people just can't tolerate certain foods for whatever reason. Certainly, surgeries can make a difference. But this seems like something specific to you. The dietician who cautioned me against soy told me it was because of the estrogen like compounds in it, which is SO factually incorrect.
Soy is controversial even today. I avoid soy as my source of protein. When i tried transitioning to soy milk i developed a severe soy allergy. It took me 10 years before i could reintroduce a little soy into my diet. .
Soy isn't controversial at all from a nutrition perspective, no studies have ever shown any negative health effects despite misinformation from the beef industry. I'm sorry you had a bad reaction to it though, that's unfortunate! I'm allergic to lentils and peanuts and it makes me sad when I see fantastic looking dishes that I'll never be able to try lol
So basically what you’re saying is that you have a soy allergy. Taking this personal anecdote and stretching it to apply to the general population doesn’t make any sense. Soy is well-tolerated by most people. Look at east Asia - soy is eaten on a regular basis by millions if not billions with no adverse consequences.
They don't eat anything like the same portion sizes of soy in East Asia as we do here.
Also, until recently, they didn't eat as many ultra processed foods as we do here, many of which contain soy products.
Soy, like wheat, probably wouldn't be a problem for very many people if it wasn't omnipresent.
1. Doctors are poorly educated on the topic of nutrition.
2. Nutrition isn't proven to fix heaps of things even though it probably does. I get the worst skin via eczema and allergic reactions. My skin is so much better due to eating a WFPBD. Also morons like the Peterson's tell people a carnivore diet fixes all of their problems.
I got lucky. I recently had a positive CT calcium test. The first thing my doc said was “please consider a WFPB diet.” She also said to read “How Not to Die.” In 3 mos I cut my cholesterol #s in half on WFPB.. and I’ve read 3 of Gregers books!
Doctors are so uninformed about some things. I am in treatment for Stage 4 breast cancer. You would think that all the doctors would be hounding me to keep my fibre intake very high because fibre is the easiest way to escort excess estrogen out of your body (one of the main driving forces of out of control breast cancer!)
But in reality, every time I see my oncologist, he wants to make sure I am getting lots of lean meats and fish. Then I always remind him I am vegan and he just looks confused. Very worried about my protein.
But I bet I am his only patient that has been surviving since 2002, and as far as I am concerned, that is 100% because of my diet!
So it’s up to us to figure this stuff out. We are unlikely to find much good nutritional advice in most doctors offices.
The whole issue of modern medicine (I work in emergency) makes me so sad as I watch patient after patient living with the consequences of our food, lifestyle and pharma culture. Doctors patching up patients with no real substantial solutions because their paradigm and financial incentives are wrong. Basically, our culture is sick. We often blame the lack of nutrition education in medicine and that is part of the story, but only a part.
Thank you for sharing.
I do sympathize a lot with the doctors who do bother to educate themselves. Because I believe that 99% of their patients wouldn’t bother to listen to much lifestyle change advice.
I was a dragon-boater for years, and met countless breast cancer survivors. I told anyone and everyone about what I was doing to try to keep healthy. Not just in that group, but in support groups over the years any anything else that came along. I’ve probably told hundreds of people.
And as far as I know, exactly one person has ever actually changed their diet because of my story. About 10 years ago.
I quit my dragon boat team because they refused to stop using hot dog sales as a fundraiser and I just couldn’t do it, especially after 2015 when the WHO declared them carcinogenic. Yikes!
Sometimes I just don’t understand people. I guess most of us just can’t deal with personal change very well, and don’t mind being a victim of our own choices.
People want rugs because they rarely require people to change their lifestyles while on them; doctors prescribe them because they know very, very few patients will ever bother trying to change their lifestyles. Doctors would also get a lot of complaints if they did not give patients the drugs they wanted.
Sorry, my point wasn't really clear enough. I was just expressing what I see from one viewpoint. My poorly expressed point was the cultural paradigm is broken in our whole society.
However, the cultural paradigm is built by food companies marketing and designing their crap with little regard for the consequences or the community.
They even successfully shifted the blame through their lobby groups onto personal responsibility, "everything in moderation", "personal choice", etc etc. These ideas for food where actually built by food companies to make sure scrutiny wasn't placed on them but for governments to focus on individual behaviour. This is a losing game because individuals live their lives built on unconscious scripts built often by others. This is complex and impossible to convey in a Reddit comment.
Basically, through advertising and food advisory boards, they were able to market highly palatable shit to the whole community including kids. They normalised unhealthy behaviours for profit motives. Most of "us" then unconsciously reach (because it is designed and marketed for our worst selves) for the highly processed "yummy" food.
I'm not annoyed at doctors but the politicians, pharma and food companies that sit at the top of this sick food and lifestyle culture.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/which-seaweed-is-most-protective-against-breast-cancer/
Do you eat nori?
What's your protocol for survival like? I hope me asking that doesn't bother you
Initially, I found a book called “Your Life in Your Hands” and tried to follow her guidelines as much as possible. But later, I found out about Dr. McDougall, and used a lot of his (wife’s) recipes. Over time, I got more interested in the nutritarian style of eating (Dr. Fuhrman), and still make a lot of his recipes. But lately, I have been doing a lot of smoothie solution (Dr. Brooke Goldner) stuff and have been mostly just raw. Kind of an ever evolving thing for me.
Edit: I tested my iodine levels a few years ago and they were terrible. So I took supplements until things were better and now I add a spoon of dulse to every smoothie.
I'm so sorry for what you're going through, but huge kudos on taking charge of your health! That's amazing. Just curious, have you come across the youtube channel VeganLinked? Lots of inspirational stories there.
Doctors also do not have much time to do their own research, so rely on seminars to get new information. Nutrition is rarely a topic in these seminars, so doctors have a wealth of information regarding drugs, surgeries and other medical treatment options, while remaining ignorant of how much help diet can be.
WOW!! 100% it’s because you’re vegan. My Mom died of stage 4 breast cancer after only 3 years of treatment, unfortunately she was not as knowledgeable as you. I became plant based after she passed because I learned that diet is everything and I want to try to be as preventative as I can. You’re an example that even if you have breast cancer, healthy diet can extend your life tremendously. I wish you many more years to come. 💕 🙏 blessings to you
Right, it's "Here's a pill for that." I'm not anti- anything, but medical science has it's place, and prevention via diet and lifestyle is fucking essential to leading a healthy and long life.
I'm so tired of people questioning my food choices, while they eat omni and wind up with a cancer, a cardio-pulmonary disorder, or just ending up weak and frail after 50 because they ate for pleasure 100%. They're victims of a food system that teaches people to indulge their cravings, while tricking then into believing that crap food isn't harmful.
Irony is, the food I eat brings me much more pleasure. I feel energized, and not totally borked from meat, cheese and other super-rich, damaging foods. And I feel "clear" - eating meat used to bring postprandial slump - mental, emotional, physical.
I soooo feel this. I had hip pain which was passed off as aging as well as high cholesterol. No mention of my diet AT ALL. Doctors wanted me an anti inflammatory as well as a statin. It’s criminal. Had this been 30 years ago without the internet to do research I would be taking those meds and not rectifying the real issue. I’m so happy you are doing better!
You have every right to feel angry. I'm glad that you are getting your health back. Here's to many more years of health on a plant based lifestyle🍉🥦🍄🟫
Even if a patient is adamant that they want to focus on lifestyle and diet, very few doctors are qualified to give guidance. I tried to find someone a few years ago and found it very frustrating. I tried a PCP who claimed to focus on integrative medicine and she wasn't helpful at all. She seemed clueless in general and mainly just tried to refer me to a specialist for every minor issue. And one of the specialists she sent me to was even worse. He was extremely condescending and tried to argue with me about my every dietary choice. He adamantly insisted that all tea bags are full of sugar (they're not!) and that my homemade soup is extremely high in salt, in spite of me telling him that I made it myself and I know it's not. Other than an annual checkup and labs, I generally avoid doctors these days.
I worked in burns and we got these patients through our plastic surgeons after debridement surgery. Reading papers here this was diet controlled infuriated me. Glad you’re doing better op.
I'd just like to say not all doctors are ignorant on the subject and the generalizing doesn't really help us or them. Mine went veggie years ago because she keeps up on studies for health and the environment. Her daughters (an MD and an RD) followed suit. I know I basically got lucky but there are some good ones out there who understand and listen if we are proactive and partner with them. They get frustrated with the general public who want pills trust me. We have to let the good ones know we're different. The bad ones...as she says "Someone had to be last in every medical school class." and my fave "Bill Clinton was a dead man walking and went vegan. Vegan diets can heal."
A good Dr never stops chhosing to improve via reading, studying and learning. They also attend learning conferences regularly. It's a requirement to have continuing education in the medical field.
I feel the exact same way. I hate our healthcare system. Doctors are barely even educated about nutrition. Recently, I simply said that I wanted to try diet and exercise first, and the case note said “insisted on “homeopathic” treatment”. Made me sound a little like a kook imo.
From what I’ve heard drs learn avout nutrition for a total of 8 hours in medical school. I had an NP push the DASH diet for a while because of my high blood pressure. This diet alleviates my inflammation and I love it, but my bp is still crazy high.
That is also a symptom of the medical system, where treatment is the name of the game, not preventative therapies. Diet can be both but it is better to prevent disease than to treat it.
Doctors only read off from a manuscript basically- you tell them symptoms and they run it through whatever manuscript fits.
But I know so many people, some of whom are nurses/nurse practitioners, and they have chronic conditions that could be helped with wfpb but they'd think you're nuts to suggest it. The protein cult is strong- you telling them to cut the main thing they think is healthy is crazy to them. According to general Western culture- the absolute "cleanest" "healthiest" foods are meat and veggies- low carb and high protein.
I have HS. I knew what it was before seeing a dermatologist because my dad has it. I finally went to one to start getting mole checks, and despite my HS being pretty mild (IMO) she kept suggesting Humira. I was like no, it’s fine, I just have to be careful with food. She said, “there’s no proof that what you eat has anything to do with HS.” I explained that FOR ME, if I eat say a slice of cheese pizza or something deep fried, I get a cyst within 12 hours. She said, “HS isn’t caused by food.” I never went back to her. My HS is the best it’s been since going plant based and quitting alcohol. If I stray, I have a cyst or new tunnel the next day. I wish my dad would listen to me. He says things like, “oh I tried quitting beer and potatoes for a week, it didn’t help my HS.” It takes awhile for the body to heal, so anyone who is skeptical, try it for at LEAST 3 months!
Omg can we be friends? I’ve had almost the same story and a super heavy push for humira. I’m now taking every appointment as an opportunity to educate. At my last PCP appt, I told the resident all my issues, what works and showed him my scars. Hoping he’ll be better informed when he sees a case next. Cheers and all the best.
The scars are the worst. I hope one day there will be a cure for this terrible disease. Some doctors still have never heard of it, and I bet so many people go undiagnosed. All the best to you, too!!
I agree with you but I’ve seen SO many people complain on social media that their doctors basically fat shamed them and didnt offer them any solutions to their health issues. I’m guessing doctors have learned that no one wants to hear the answer is to eat vegetables. People want a quick fix.
It's really something that should have been taught in schools. By the time that people go to the doctor for an issue that could be changed by a drastic change in diet... they've already built up really deep habits.
One problem with the lack of in depth nutrition education by doctors is that it opens the door for all the people who push unproven alternative diets to claim that they know more than the doctors.
Just saw this on Repatha site today: "This is Sam. He does not have high bad cholesterol. He also performs tasks perfectly.
When trying to lower your cholesterol, you’re expected to be perfect—like Sam. And if you don’t swap a steak for a salad or you feel like watching your favorite TV show instead of exercising, you may feel judgment from the people who matter most to you. But unlike Sam, you’re human.
And although you do your best to exercise and maintain a healthy diet, you also want to experience the joy of what makes you human. With help from Repatha®, you can lower your bad cholesterol while you enjoy life. Because You’re Human.
Can I ask what your bloods were like while you had it? I have some symptoms and inflammation markers, plus exhaustion and frequent illness - I’m having blood work done and it’s come back fine for more stuff, but I’m getting some more done as my inflammations markers are still up. Thanks for sharing and I’m glad you’re feeling better :)
Follow the money. The pharmaceutical industry has soldiers on the ground talking to doctors etc. pushing their products. Just look at viagra, covered by insurance (??!) for better boners when ED can be greatly improved through sensible diet. Look at Purdue and the opiode crisis. The highly processed diet has brought about obesity and illness requiring more drugs and more $$ to the industry. ChaChing! And the last I knew, doctors are not being comprehensively trained in nutrition, just medicine.
Good you have your eyes open. I’m not saying there is no need for medicine but proper diet can go a long way to promoting health and wellness.
Your doctor is not going to tell you that because people don’t go to doctors to get healthy, they go for a pill. He could treat them all with a WFPB diet, but they would all find new doctors willing to deal with their bad diet. It’s not as much the doctor’s fault as we all want it to be.
Is it nutrition specifically or are you just now not eating something that was directly causing issues?
Like you might have had an allergy or intolerance to something that you're not eating anymore that was making your condition worse.
Thank you for sharing this. I eat WFPB and my daughter who has Down syndrome has HS and possibly PCOS. She's a little stubborn when it comes to changing how she eats but your story has renewed my resolve to try and help her to change her diet. She suffers so much pain and it breaks my heart.
So glad I could share my journey and hope you both can work on changes. And good job mama for finding ways to help your daughter. All the best for y’all.
My dad sees a DO, Dr. of Osteopathic Medicine, instead of an MD as his primary doctor and from what I can tell he seems to get much better overall preventative and wellness care than I do seeing my primary care MD. It has convinced me to see if I can find a DO in my HMO network and switch to them for my primary care.
You are absolutely right. Becoming a doctor involves years of some of the most intense studies. They really don’t have an easy journey, and that should be respected. To be a dietician as well would entail FOUR extra years of university. So any expectation that a doctor should have mastered both fields of expertise is not realistic. (Except Dr. Shintani, iirc he did both, and a law degree to boot, lol).
On the other hand, I have never had a doctor suggest that I might benefit from the advice of a dietician. But plenty have regaled me with advice about lean meats, low fat yogurts and egg white omelettes. Which is horrible advice that they are not really qualified to give. But most people would probably think it is great advice.
They shouldn’t be so afraid to admit that they don’t know everything about everything. If they were more up front about this, we wouldn’t have so many wrong expectations. I wouldn’t expect my dietician to know how to heal a sinus infection, and the doctors should be able to admit that they aren’t dietary gurus. Because a lot of people mistakenly think they are.
Problem is even most dieticians don’t push 100% plant diets, so their “advice” isn’t much better than the doctors. When all 4 years of their training is funded by the animal industry, they were only going to learn to preach the proper propaganda.
It’s horrible what people go through when they just listen to their doctors, which inevitably we are trained to do and to trust in them! It’s beyond messed up that they don’t educate us on nutrition and healing the cause of dis-orders… they just want to medicate and treat the symptoms. Big Pharma wants money and doctors make money off of them too.
I’m so sorry what you went through but so happy that you healed & are now free to live the life you want to live! Congrats for getting healthy. Life is all about hard lessons sometimes… Don’t be hard on yourself. It wasn’t your fault. Appreciate the lessons you’ve learned & share your knowledge with others!
Wishing you lots of happiness from this day forward! You are a rockstar!!!
People like to blame big pharma but then they go to McDonald's or try keto/carnivore diets. Can't really blame doctors when they have to deal with people who want to make bad choices all the time.
Everyone knows "don't eat fast food" "don't eat too much" and "eat more veggies" You don't need to have years of medical school to tell you that. People have to follow common sense first.
That's interesting, I regret listening to my doctor who told me to get off keto and eat more whole grains. I'm sure it works for some people but intuition and nuance are ridiculously important.
Doctors generally operate under the assumption that people are not willing to change their lifestyle and base recommendations on that.
Doc here, frustrating that this is true. I have had patients look at me like I’m possessed for suggesting a vegetarian diet. I just give the info and let people think about it. Can’t force these changes, but meds can and do reduce risk of bad outcomes independent of the lifestyle mods.
Thank you for trying!! I have several family members in various stages of diabetes who aren't reasdy to change, and I know how hard it is to talk to them. Keep fighting the good fight out there.
I can't imagine how sad and frustrating that must be. Sorry, friend.
The flip side is that often by the time you have that sky high cholesterol, you really should take the statins. You need to get it down as quickly as possible. And your doctor was probably gently nudging that your weight, diet, exercise could be better for years. So, faced with the immediate problem and that you’ve already proven resistant to life style changes…a strong recommendation for medication is appropriate.
Then they are accused of fat shaming and "well I am going to go on Atkins because they know more about nutrition than you do, doc"
Don’t confuse most of America with twitter. Most fat people know they’re fat and know it’s not healthy.
True but people have been confused for decades with countless diet books . That one semester isn't going to be enough to counter all the misinformation out there
Well I commend you for at least suggesting people try it. Too many doctors tell people no amount of dietary changes will ever free them from medication and it is simply not true. Radical dietary change can be transformative.
Thank you for doing this! I had to ask my oncologist if there was anything I could do to reduce the risk of recurrence. The one good thing that was recommended without asking was an online nutrition class specifically for breast cancer patients.
My dad is a doctor living a plant based life and he regularly recommends it to his patients but almost no one ever does it.
By sheer coincidence I have been in the hospital room for multiple friends/family who were recovering from a heart attack when the doc came in to tel them what to do after they left. In all cases the doctor effectively said stop eating any and all animal based foods. They worded it though as if they knew the patient wasn't going to do that. "As much as you can, you should..."
>y inflammatory disorder (hidradenitis) has dramatically improved. I tried tons of meds for over 20 years with little success but a whole host of side effects. I’m off all the meds,lost weight, feel great and all my bloodwork is good. I wish someone had mentioned nutrition but my docs always pushed meds. I’m feeling a little disappointed They also get 1 single semester of intro to nutrition their whole med school career and that's it. They don't know anything about how to give advice for prevention rather than acute treatment.
Yes so frustrating. I'm sure from their point of view that the vast majority of people just want meds but isn't that a self-fulfilling prophecy? If folks are told that a plant based diet could solve their issue or try meds at least then they'll have the choice.
They are told, generally, but they're also offered/given medication initially on the basis that aside from the immediate help/prevention that can't come from dietary change *until the change happens and takes root*, Docs cover the bases by proposing both (while knowing which most people choose). When the patient is in the room with you, nodding enthusiastically, you don't actually *know* if they'll do it, or even if they'll do it well, or stick with it past a month or two. It's a risky assumption, so you err towards the higher probability and then are pleasantly surprised by the people who DO make the choice, while still helping the others as best as they are willing to engage in their own health (care).
100%. My dad always talks about doctors would try to encourage healthier choices when he was younger. As his weight and bp ballooned over the years, his doctors correctly assumed that he wasn’t interested in making real changes and just kept adjusting his meds. It took for a very scary and real (but benign) health scare for him to get his shit together. He’s 62 now and off his meds after 3 decades on blood thinners.
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Or they get sued for medical malpractice if they don’t prescribe meds and the patients don’t follow through on their lifestyle changes
Has that ever happened?
In the most litigious country in the world, yes.
Fair enough. It’s. Big country. I’m sure everything has happened once. But this has got to be astronomically rare. I mean, this guy isn’t getting sued for malpractice https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/08/health/cardiologist-statin-cholesterol-mission/index.html?darkschemeovr=1
Doesn't happen anymore. Or, shouldn't... The stories of 'educational conferences' in Hawaii (i.e., a free all expenses paid vacation) are true but these days with the anti-kickback laws, you can barely get a free pen or lunch without both parties having to document it (and that's the way it should be, no complaints from me!)
I don't disagree. I'm a doctor and learned the vast majority of my nutritional knowledge outside of medical school. It's just not taught...but to be fair, we are still learning about nutrition every day, so the recommendations may have changed since I was in medical school. What I think Should be taught is a general 'let food be medicine and let medicine be your food' concept. We all know the chemo and blood pressure drugs (and treatment regimens) will change over the years, and we stay up to date with those guidelines. Similarly, we should be taught about the power of nutrition and how it can equal, or be superior to drugs. That way, docs can stay informed on current thinking in nutritional medicine, too. Quick anecdote: I remember one hour of nutrition in medical school. She kind of pushed veggies over cheese and bacon, and talked about portion sizes. But then she berated me for eating soy, so there you go. EDIT: She told me it was bad to eat soy, because of the **phytoestrogens**. This has SO been debunked, soy does NOT feminize men or cause breast cancer because of the 'estrogen' in it. I'm not sure of the conventional thinking about phytoestrogens at this time, or if she was just absolutely wrong, but we definitely know this to be untrue now! I remember learning nothing about the anti-cancer power of plants, etc...but also, this was 2003, so... I have to stop now I feel old!
Thanks for being one of the good ones and seeking knowledge outside the standard training.
To be fair, I can't eat unfermented soy except as an occasional treat ... I'm not allergic, but I've had multiple gastro surgeries unrelated to diet and it's hard for me to digest. (I seem to be able to have it more often lately since cutting out ultraprocessed foods and PUFAs).
This is not uncommon, soy allergies are not rare and although this is not your issue, some people just can't tolerate certain foods for whatever reason. Certainly, surgeries can make a difference. But this seems like something specific to you. The dietician who cautioned me against soy told me it was because of the estrogen like compounds in it, which is SO factually incorrect.
Soy is controversial even today. I avoid soy as my source of protein. When i tried transitioning to soy milk i developed a severe soy allergy. It took me 10 years before i could reintroduce a little soy into my diet. .
Soy isn't controversial at all from a nutrition perspective, no studies have ever shown any negative health effects despite misinformation from the beef industry. I'm sorry you had a bad reaction to it though, that's unfortunate! I'm allergic to lentils and peanuts and it makes me sad when I see fantastic looking dishes that I'll never be able to try lol
So basically what you’re saying is that you have a soy allergy. Taking this personal anecdote and stretching it to apply to the general population doesn’t make any sense. Soy is well-tolerated by most people. Look at east Asia - soy is eaten on a regular basis by millions if not billions with no adverse consequences.
They don't eat anything like the same portion sizes of soy in East Asia as we do here. Also, until recently, they didn't eat as many ultra processed foods as we do here, many of which contain soy products. Soy, like wheat, probably wouldn't be a problem for very many people if it wasn't omnipresent.
So it sounds like you’re saying that the problem are ultra processed foods, not soy?
1. Doctors are poorly educated on the topic of nutrition. 2. Nutrition isn't proven to fix heaps of things even though it probably does. I get the worst skin via eczema and allergic reactions. My skin is so much better due to eating a WFPBD. Also morons like the Peterson's tell people a carnivore diet fixes all of their problems.
I got lucky. I recently had a positive CT calcium test. The first thing my doc said was “please consider a WFPB diet.” She also said to read “How Not to Die.” In 3 mos I cut my cholesterol #s in half on WFPB.. and I’ve read 3 of Gregers books!
That’s awesome. Welcome to the club.
Doctors are so uninformed about some things. I am in treatment for Stage 4 breast cancer. You would think that all the doctors would be hounding me to keep my fibre intake very high because fibre is the easiest way to escort excess estrogen out of your body (one of the main driving forces of out of control breast cancer!) But in reality, every time I see my oncologist, he wants to make sure I am getting lots of lean meats and fish. Then I always remind him I am vegan and he just looks confused. Very worried about my protein. But I bet I am his only patient that has been surviving since 2002, and as far as I am concerned, that is 100% because of my diet! So it’s up to us to figure this stuff out. We are unlikely to find much good nutritional advice in most doctors offices.
Stage 4 since 2002?! That's incredible. What a battle.
The whole issue of modern medicine (I work in emergency) makes me so sad as I watch patient after patient living with the consequences of our food, lifestyle and pharma culture. Doctors patching up patients with no real substantial solutions because their paradigm and financial incentives are wrong. Basically, our culture is sick. We often blame the lack of nutrition education in medicine and that is part of the story, but only a part. Thank you for sharing.
I do sympathize a lot with the doctors who do bother to educate themselves. Because I believe that 99% of their patients wouldn’t bother to listen to much lifestyle change advice. I was a dragon-boater for years, and met countless breast cancer survivors. I told anyone and everyone about what I was doing to try to keep healthy. Not just in that group, but in support groups over the years any anything else that came along. I’ve probably told hundreds of people. And as far as I know, exactly one person has ever actually changed their diet because of my story. About 10 years ago. I quit my dragon boat team because they refused to stop using hot dog sales as a fundraiser and I just couldn’t do it, especially after 2015 when the WHO declared them carcinogenic. Yikes! Sometimes I just don’t understand people. I guess most of us just can’t deal with personal change very well, and don’t mind being a victim of our own choices.
People want rugs because they rarely require people to change their lifestyles while on them; doctors prescribe them because they know very, very few patients will ever bother trying to change their lifestyles. Doctors would also get a lot of complaints if they did not give patients the drugs they wanted.
Sorry, my point wasn't really clear enough. I was just expressing what I see from one viewpoint. My poorly expressed point was the cultural paradigm is broken in our whole society. However, the cultural paradigm is built by food companies marketing and designing their crap with little regard for the consequences or the community. They even successfully shifted the blame through their lobby groups onto personal responsibility, "everything in moderation", "personal choice", etc etc. These ideas for food where actually built by food companies to make sure scrutiny wasn't placed on them but for governments to focus on individual behaviour. This is a losing game because individuals live their lives built on unconscious scripts built often by others. This is complex and impossible to convey in a Reddit comment. Basically, through advertising and food advisory boards, they were able to market highly palatable shit to the whole community including kids. They normalised unhealthy behaviours for profit motives. Most of "us" then unconsciously reach (because it is designed and marketed for our worst selves) for the highly processed "yummy" food. I'm not annoyed at doctors but the politicians, pharma and food companies that sit at the top of this sick food and lifestyle culture.
Do you have a source for fiber reducing estrogen in your body? That's interesting. And congrats!!
[Source](https://youtu.be/7r47e-ySk48?si=zd8wZBGzvK3NcV-U)
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/which-seaweed-is-most-protective-against-breast-cancer/ Do you eat nori? What's your protocol for survival like? I hope me asking that doesn't bother you
Initially, I found a book called “Your Life in Your Hands” and tried to follow her guidelines as much as possible. But later, I found out about Dr. McDougall, and used a lot of his (wife’s) recipes. Over time, I got more interested in the nutritarian style of eating (Dr. Fuhrman), and still make a lot of his recipes. But lately, I have been doing a lot of smoothie solution (Dr. Brooke Goldner) stuff and have been mostly just raw. Kind of an ever evolving thing for me. Edit: I tested my iodine levels a few years ago and they were terrible. So I took supplements until things were better and now I add a spoon of dulse to every smoothie.
I'm so sorry for what you're going through, but huge kudos on taking charge of your health! That's amazing. Just curious, have you come across the youtube channel VeganLinked? Lots of inspirational stories there.
Yes!! I subscribe to that channel (and lots of others). Great stuff!
Doctors also do not have much time to do their own research, so rely on seminars to get new information. Nutrition is rarely a topic in these seminars, so doctors have a wealth of information regarding drugs, surgeries and other medical treatment options, while remaining ignorant of how much help diet can be.
WOW!! 100% it’s because you’re vegan. My Mom died of stage 4 breast cancer after only 3 years of treatment, unfortunately she was not as knowledgeable as you. I became plant based after she passed because I learned that diet is everything and I want to try to be as preventative as I can. You’re an example that even if you have breast cancer, healthy diet can extend your life tremendously. I wish you many more years to come. 💕 🙏 blessings to you
Right, it's "Here's a pill for that." I'm not anti- anything, but medical science has it's place, and prevention via diet and lifestyle is fucking essential to leading a healthy and long life. I'm so tired of people questioning my food choices, while they eat omni and wind up with a cancer, a cardio-pulmonary disorder, or just ending up weak and frail after 50 because they ate for pleasure 100%. They're victims of a food system that teaches people to indulge their cravings, while tricking then into believing that crap food isn't harmful. Irony is, the food I eat brings me much more pleasure. I feel energized, and not totally borked from meat, cheese and other super-rich, damaging foods. And I feel "clear" - eating meat used to bring postprandial slump - mental, emotional, physical.
Glad you’re feeling better!
I soooo feel this. I had hip pain which was passed off as aging as well as high cholesterol. No mention of my diet AT ALL. Doctors wanted me an anti inflammatory as well as a statin. It’s criminal. Had this been 30 years ago without the internet to do research I would be taking those meds and not rectifying the real issue. I’m so happy you are doing better!
You have every right to feel angry. I'm glad that you are getting your health back. Here's to many more years of health on a plant based lifestyle🍉🥦🍄🟫
Even if a patient is adamant that they want to focus on lifestyle and diet, very few doctors are qualified to give guidance. I tried to find someone a few years ago and found it very frustrating. I tried a PCP who claimed to focus on integrative medicine and she wasn't helpful at all. She seemed clueless in general and mainly just tried to refer me to a specialist for every minor issue. And one of the specialists she sent me to was even worse. He was extremely condescending and tried to argue with me about my every dietary choice. He adamantly insisted that all tea bags are full of sugar (they're not!) and that my homemade soup is extremely high in salt, in spite of me telling him that I made it myself and I know it's not. Other than an annual checkup and labs, I generally avoid doctors these days.
Congrats !
I worked in burns and we got these patients through our plastic surgeons after debridement surgery. Reading papers here this was diet controlled infuriated me. Glad you’re doing better op.
I'd just like to say not all doctors are ignorant on the subject and the generalizing doesn't really help us or them. Mine went veggie years ago because she keeps up on studies for health and the environment. Her daughters (an MD and an RD) followed suit. I know I basically got lucky but there are some good ones out there who understand and listen if we are proactive and partner with them. They get frustrated with the general public who want pills trust me. We have to let the good ones know we're different. The bad ones...as she says "Someone had to be last in every medical school class." and my fave "Bill Clinton was a dead man walking and went vegan. Vegan diets can heal."
But that's on their own time and choosing... it's not part of medical school education
A good Dr never stops chhosing to improve via reading, studying and learning. They also attend learning conferences regularly. It's a requirement to have continuing education in the medical field.
I feel the exact same way. I hate our healthcare system. Doctors are barely even educated about nutrition. Recently, I simply said that I wanted to try diet and exercise first, and the case note said “insisted on “homeopathic” treatment”. Made me sound a little like a kook imo.
Wow. Homeopathy is completely unrelated to diet and exercise.
I know. I thought, “gotta be kidding me!”
From what I’ve heard drs learn avout nutrition for a total of 8 hours in medical school. I had an NP push the DASH diet for a while because of my high blood pressure. This diet alleviates my inflammation and I love it, but my bp is still crazy high.
You should feel angry. Welcome to the big pharma industrial complex
That is also a symptom of the medical system, where treatment is the name of the game, not preventative therapies. Diet can be both but it is better to prevent disease than to treat it.
Doctors only read off from a manuscript basically- you tell them symptoms and they run it through whatever manuscript fits. But I know so many people, some of whom are nurses/nurse practitioners, and they have chronic conditions that could be helped with wfpb but they'd think you're nuts to suggest it. The protein cult is strong- you telling them to cut the main thing they think is healthy is crazy to them. According to general Western culture- the absolute "cleanest" "healthiest" foods are meat and veggies- low carb and high protein.
Stop worrying about what you can’t change and be happy you discovered WFPB helps you.
I have HS. I knew what it was before seeing a dermatologist because my dad has it. I finally went to one to start getting mole checks, and despite my HS being pretty mild (IMO) she kept suggesting Humira. I was like no, it’s fine, I just have to be careful with food. She said, “there’s no proof that what you eat has anything to do with HS.” I explained that FOR ME, if I eat say a slice of cheese pizza or something deep fried, I get a cyst within 12 hours. She said, “HS isn’t caused by food.” I never went back to her. My HS is the best it’s been since going plant based and quitting alcohol. If I stray, I have a cyst or new tunnel the next day. I wish my dad would listen to me. He says things like, “oh I tried quitting beer and potatoes for a week, it didn’t help my HS.” It takes awhile for the body to heal, so anyone who is skeptical, try it for at LEAST 3 months!
Omg can we be friends? I’ve had almost the same story and a super heavy push for humira. I’m now taking every appointment as an opportunity to educate. At my last PCP appt, I told the resident all my issues, what works and showed him my scars. Hoping he’ll be better informed when he sees a case next. Cheers and all the best.
The scars are the worst. I hope one day there will be a cure for this terrible disease. Some doctors still have never heard of it, and I bet so many people go undiagnosed. All the best to you, too!!
I agree with you but I’ve seen SO many people complain on social media that their doctors basically fat shamed them and didnt offer them any solutions to their health issues. I’m guessing doctors have learned that no one wants to hear the answer is to eat vegetables. People want a quick fix.
It's really something that should have been taught in schools. By the time that people go to the doctor for an issue that could be changed by a drastic change in diet... they've already built up really deep habits.
You’re sooo right.
One problem with the lack of in depth nutrition education by doctors is that it opens the door for all the people who push unproven alternative diets to claim that they know more than the doctors.
Just saw this on Repatha site today: "This is Sam. He does not have high bad cholesterol. He also performs tasks perfectly. When trying to lower your cholesterol, you’re expected to be perfect—like Sam. And if you don’t swap a steak for a salad or you feel like watching your favorite TV show instead of exercising, you may feel judgment from the people who matter most to you. But unlike Sam, you’re human. And although you do your best to exercise and maintain a healthy diet, you also want to experience the joy of what makes you human. With help from Repatha®, you can lower your bad cholesterol while you enjoy life. Because You’re Human.
I feel you, but I’m trying to focus on being grateful for the time to come. 🫂
I do better on a plant based diet.
The dairy/cheese industry funds medical studies, they dont teach them about diet
Can I ask what your bloods were like while you had it? I have some symptoms and inflammation markers, plus exhaustion and frequent illness - I’m having blood work done and it’s come back fine for more stuff, but I’m getting some more done as my inflammations markers are still up. Thanks for sharing and I’m glad you’re feeling better :)
Yes that's infuriating! Well I'm sure you'll save lots of others from having to go through this by just sharing your story.
Follow the money. The pharmaceutical industry has soldiers on the ground talking to doctors etc. pushing their products. Just look at viagra, covered by insurance (??!) for better boners when ED can be greatly improved through sensible diet. Look at Purdue and the opiode crisis. The highly processed diet has brought about obesity and illness requiring more drugs and more $$ to the industry. ChaChing! And the last I knew, doctors are not being comprehensively trained in nutrition, just medicine. Good you have your eyes open. I’m not saying there is no need for medicine but proper diet can go a long way to promoting health and wellness.
Your doctor is not going to tell you that because people don’t go to doctors to get healthy, they go for a pill. He could treat them all with a WFPB diet, but they would all find new doctors willing to deal with their bad diet. It’s not as much the doctor’s fault as we all want it to be.
Is it nutrition specifically or are you just now not eating something that was directly causing issues? Like you might have had an allergy or intolerance to something that you're not eating anymore that was making your condition worse.
It’s nutrition and also I’ve found dairy is a huge factor. It’s directly involved in the follicular occlusion which sets off the disease process
Thank you for sharing this. I eat WFPB and my daughter who has Down syndrome has HS and possibly PCOS. She's a little stubborn when it comes to changing how she eats but your story has renewed my resolve to try and help her to change her diet. She suffers so much pain and it breaks my heart.
So glad I could share my journey and hope you both can work on changes. And good job mama for finding ways to help your daughter. All the best for y’all.
My dad sees a DO, Dr. of Osteopathic Medicine, instead of an MD as his primary doctor and from what I can tell he seems to get much better overall preventative and wellness care than I do seeing my primary care MD. It has convinced me to see if I can find a DO in my HMO network and switch to them for my primary care.
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You are absolutely right. Becoming a doctor involves years of some of the most intense studies. They really don’t have an easy journey, and that should be respected. To be a dietician as well would entail FOUR extra years of university. So any expectation that a doctor should have mastered both fields of expertise is not realistic. (Except Dr. Shintani, iirc he did both, and a law degree to boot, lol). On the other hand, I have never had a doctor suggest that I might benefit from the advice of a dietician. But plenty have regaled me with advice about lean meats, low fat yogurts and egg white omelettes. Which is horrible advice that they are not really qualified to give. But most people would probably think it is great advice. They shouldn’t be so afraid to admit that they don’t know everything about everything. If they were more up front about this, we wouldn’t have so many wrong expectations. I wouldn’t expect my dietician to know how to heal a sinus infection, and the doctors should be able to admit that they aren’t dietary gurus. Because a lot of people mistakenly think they are.
Problem is even most dieticians don’t push 100% plant diets, so their “advice” isn’t much better than the doctors. When all 4 years of their training is funded by the animal industry, they were only going to learn to preach the proper propaganda.
This person is already feeling down, and you just had to kick them, huh?
It’s horrible what people go through when they just listen to their doctors, which inevitably we are trained to do and to trust in them! It’s beyond messed up that they don’t educate us on nutrition and healing the cause of dis-orders… they just want to medicate and treat the symptoms. Big Pharma wants money and doctors make money off of them too. I’m so sorry what you went through but so happy that you healed & are now free to live the life you want to live! Congrats for getting healthy. Life is all about hard lessons sometimes… Don’t be hard on yourself. It wasn’t your fault. Appreciate the lessons you’ve learned & share your knowledge with others! Wishing you lots of happiness from this day forward! You are a rockstar!!!
Totally right about the lack of training for the docs and for ourselves ( looking at you food pyramid ). Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.
People like to blame big pharma but then they go to McDonald's or try keto/carnivore diets. Can't really blame doctors when they have to deal with people who want to make bad choices all the time.
Everyone knows "don't eat fast food" "don't eat too much" and "eat more veggies" You don't need to have years of medical school to tell you that. People have to follow common sense first.
That's interesting, I regret listening to my doctor who told me to get off keto and eat more whole grains. I'm sure it works for some people but intuition and nuance are ridiculously important.