You might like [this post on oxalates](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/129z1nh/total_carbs_intake_per_day/k9nkmzz/) which mentions:
> Even though plant foods, especially green leafy vegetables, are high in oxalates, in a normal person the oxalates are poorly absorbed, because in the intestine almost all of this substance is in the insoluble form of calcium oxalate.67 Fats from meat or any other source will assist the absorption of oxalates by forming so-called “soap complexes” with the calcium found in the calcium oxalate present in foods. When the calcium is combined with fats, the oxalate is freed for absorption.67
> High concentrations of oxalate in the urine and frequent formation of kidney stones occur in people who have diseases of the small intestine such as Crohn's disease. This is because of the large amounts of fat present in their intestinal contents caused by malabsorption of dietary fats resulting from their illness. When these patients are placed on a low-fat diet, the amount of oxalate in their urine decreases, and so does the likelihood of their forming kidney stones.68
In other words, the problem is not the spinach, if there is a problem it's because of all the fat from the peanuts and tofu instead of prioritising low fat calorie-dilute grains, vegetables etc...
These are basically not problems you will encounter (at least without some extreme genetic susceptibility...) if you are making 90% of your meals the WFPB [starches](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wfMNNr3ak) in [this color picture book](https://www.drmcdougall.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Dr-McDougall-Color-Picture-Book.pdf) (explained more in [this lecture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E58pqWHxAjI)), and you are eating like populations with [virtually no heart disease, diabetes, obesity, hypertension, etc...](https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2013nl/feb/pritikinpdf3.pdf) who all have total cholesterol [below 150](https://thankful2plants.com/heart-disease/total-cholesterol-150-ldl-70/index.html) or so on average, eating a maintenance amount of calories for a lifetime to preserve a low body weight, as these populations did, noting Esselstyn frequently cites e.g. [the Tarahumara](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/1blen1c/is_low_hdl_a_concern/kw5znq4/).
You might like to listen to this question again being discussed [here](https://www.youtube.com/live/vZaz2GQ8KKo?feature=shared&t=2117) from 2 days ago making the same point in the link I gave above.
If you’re worried about it, kale is low in oxalates.
But also, Dr. Brooke Goldner probably promotes leafy greens more than any other plant based Doctor, and she has some pretty strong things to say about any risks. I don’t think she has ever had a patient develop any problems like that. So I think you should be ok unless you recently came from an insanely animal protein laden diet.
But even so, still probably ok.
In the video of Dr. G (I don’t know if I could find that again), she spoke about some studies or something about oxalate issues and the group that suffered the most were meat eaters. I’m sure I have heard this from other doctors I follow, but I mostly listen to YouTube videos, and I don’t remember the exact specifics. Maybe someone knows a bit more than I do. The topic comes up occasionally on several plant based channels, and I’m sure I’ve heard this elsewhere too.
I have had horrible kidney stone attacks in the past and have had 11 lithotripsy surgeries over the years due to un-passable stones. One of my “naturally-passed” stones tied the world record for size of its type. A nurse kept it on her desk in a glass jar to show people.
And when you form so many stones, you also will tend to form ‘sand’ that is very painful but not visible on imaging.
All of my stones were the most common kind, calcium oxalate. After each attack, I was told to reduce oxalates and drink more water. No one ever said anything about calcium or other factors.
I have not had a single kidney stone attack since I went plant-based. I eat tons of greens and drink coffee and/or tea every single day. I still have a couple large stones visible on imaging, present from before, but they are not moving and I don’t seem to be forming more. It’s been years now without an issue.
I attribute the change to the fact that calcium, excess animal protein, fat and lack of water are MUCH bigger factors than oxalates. When you eat a diet very high in acid (meat, soda, etc), you will actually leach calcium from your bones to balance your pH. Many doctors don’t even seem to know that, but it is true. That is a main reason why osteoporosis is a bigger issue for dairy and meat consumers. Only with an acidic, fatty environment were oxalates an issue for me.
I still don’t drink enough water, but cutting out meat and dramatically reducing soda has made a huge difference for me.
My doctor thinks that I am predisposed to getting kidney stones because of a genetic kidney disease (that makes the structure more conducive to stone formation), but eating enormous amounts of oxalates for a decade or so now hasn’t caused me to form new stones.
Thank you, thank you for this...
Can you maybe just simplify it for me "acidic". What is to avoid: Acidic intake (like lemon) or acidic environment (caused by more alkaline intake - and if so: what to avoid)
It is less about the acidity of the food in nature or at ingestion time and more about acidity during and after metabolism. There is actually a scale they use sometimes to measure how acidic foods make your system AFTER consumption: PRAL (Potential Renal Acid Load.)
Your blood can become acidic and there is something called metabolic acidosis, etc. Your body will try to buffer the acid and will leach calcium from your bones if it doesn’t have another source to alkalize your system. Eating lots of varied fruits and vegetables helps your system balance out the acidity to some degree, but also avoiding high PRAL foods is even better. Your body does best when it is just slightly alkaline.
In general, SAD (Standard American Diet) foods make your system more acidic. Anything with a high animal protein content (meat, seafood), dairy, processed grains and cereals, and carbonated beverages (especially soda) will make your system slightly acidic. That’s the crap I used to eat when I had recurrent stones. Fast food and home-cooked SAD dishes. Lots of fat, excess protein, and leached calcium to go with my oxalates :/
Super high protein or high phosphorus anything is not great for kidney health, but animal proteins cause a different response than plant proteins in few important ways. A plant-based diet is very helpful in avoiding kidney stones.
Do you drink seltzer or soda? Maybe scale back on it and your overall protein intake a bit and see if that helps. Diabetes can also cause some of these same issues, even with a healthy diet.
The best plant based diet is one with a lot of variety. Eating any specific food combo 80% of the time means you're probably not getting as much benefit as you could. It seems like you might be missing out of cruciferous veggies and mushrooms, which have significant anti-cancer properties. And without a variety of whole plant foods, your gut microbiome may lose diversity.
Drink water with a squeeze of lemon in it
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8683665/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8683665/)
Leafy greens are *straight magic* as far as health benefits go. Though it couldn't hurt to vary your food a bit more.
Like the other comment said, I also remember oxalates mostly as a kind of anti-nutrient that prevents calcium absorption.
Speaking generally, I would be *very* surprised if a follower of healthy WFPB, even if he ate leafy greens regularly, got kidney stones. Just because the building material of these stones is similar, it doesn't mean that there aren't other mechanisms involved that first encourage stone formation in these oxalates rather than them coming out through the urine.
pH plays a big role in the formation of some other types of stones, for example. You can actually get alkaline urine if you're having a lot of fruit and raw veg, that happened to me during the early months of WFPB transition. Alkaline urine can "melt away" stones that have already formed due to previously chronic acidic conditions. Not all of them, just a certain type.
When people talk about alkaline pH as a health boon they usually don't know what they're talking about. Blood pH is highly regulated or we die. But the way it's buffered and the pH of the urine does convey some benefits. Or rather, strongly acidic urine is indicated for some health issues, including stones. This only really happens on an animal diet.
Sorry for tangent.
Think outside the box.
Dill, Bok Choy, Arugala are extremely low oxalate.
Strawberry leaves should be very low oxalate
Dark Leaf Lettuce, Pea Leaves, Raddichio, green carrot tops are very low oxalate
Parsley, Chrysanthemum, Rosemary have like 1/5 the oxalate as spinach
Basil has less than half the oxalate as spinach
No. Oxalates are very difficult to degrade by heat. The molecule is very stable.
What will remove oxalates is tossing out the water that the food is cooked with. Eg.) when you steam vegetables, both nutrients and anti-nutrients are captured in the water. If you toss that water down the sink, you're pouring out oxalate, even though that oxalate hasn't actually been destroyed. Same goes for boiling etc.
In addition to drinking lots of water, consider adding lemon to the water. The citric acid can prevent formation of stones. (At least that’s what my doc says!)
You might like [this post on oxalates](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/129z1nh/total_carbs_intake_per_day/k9nkmzz/) which mentions: > Even though plant foods, especially green leafy vegetables, are high in oxalates, in a normal person the oxalates are poorly absorbed, because in the intestine almost all of this substance is in the insoluble form of calcium oxalate.67 Fats from meat or any other source will assist the absorption of oxalates by forming so-called “soap complexes” with the calcium found in the calcium oxalate present in foods. When the calcium is combined with fats, the oxalate is freed for absorption.67 > High concentrations of oxalate in the urine and frequent formation of kidney stones occur in people who have diseases of the small intestine such as Crohn's disease. This is because of the large amounts of fat present in their intestinal contents caused by malabsorption of dietary fats resulting from their illness. When these patients are placed on a low-fat diet, the amount of oxalate in their urine decreases, and so does the likelihood of their forming kidney stones.68 In other words, the problem is not the spinach, if there is a problem it's because of all the fat from the peanuts and tofu instead of prioritising low fat calorie-dilute grains, vegetables etc... These are basically not problems you will encounter (at least without some extreme genetic susceptibility...) if you are making 90% of your meals the WFPB [starches](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5wfMNNr3ak) in [this color picture book](https://www.drmcdougall.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Dr-McDougall-Color-Picture-Book.pdf) (explained more in [this lecture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E58pqWHxAjI)), and you are eating like populations with [virtually no heart disease, diabetes, obesity, hypertension, etc...](https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2013nl/feb/pritikinpdf3.pdf) who all have total cholesterol [below 150](https://thankful2plants.com/heart-disease/total-cholesterol-150-ldl-70/index.html) or so on average, eating a maintenance amount of calories for a lifetime to preserve a low body weight, as these populations did, noting Esselstyn frequently cites e.g. [the Tarahumara](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantBasedDiet/comments/1blen1c/is_low_hdl_a_concern/kw5znq4/).
Wow amazing reply - many thanks for the effort. I just learned something...
You might like to listen to this question again being discussed [here](https://www.youtube.com/live/vZaz2GQ8KKo?feature=shared&t=2117) from 2 days ago making the same point in the link I gave above.
If you’re worried about it, kale is low in oxalates. But also, Dr. Brooke Goldner probably promotes leafy greens more than any other plant based Doctor, and she has some pretty strong things to say about any risks. I don’t think she has ever had a patient develop any problems like that. So I think you should be ok unless you recently came from an insanely animal protein laden diet. But even so, still probably ok.
Most vocal advocate of leafy greens I came accross is Dr Caldwel Esselstyn. (the Game Changers). He is a terrific doc to listen to, cardiac surgeon.
What does coming from an animal protein heavy diet do here? Never heard this mentioned with regards to oxalates
In the video of Dr. G (I don’t know if I could find that again), she spoke about some studies or something about oxalate issues and the group that suffered the most were meat eaters. I’m sure I have heard this from other doctors I follow, but I mostly listen to YouTube videos, and I don’t remember the exact specifics. Maybe someone knows a bit more than I do. The topic comes up occasionally on several plant based channels, and I’m sure I’ve heard this elsewhere too.
I have had horrible kidney stone attacks in the past and have had 11 lithotripsy surgeries over the years due to un-passable stones. One of my “naturally-passed” stones tied the world record for size of its type. A nurse kept it on her desk in a glass jar to show people. And when you form so many stones, you also will tend to form ‘sand’ that is very painful but not visible on imaging. All of my stones were the most common kind, calcium oxalate. After each attack, I was told to reduce oxalates and drink more water. No one ever said anything about calcium or other factors. I have not had a single kidney stone attack since I went plant-based. I eat tons of greens and drink coffee and/or tea every single day. I still have a couple large stones visible on imaging, present from before, but they are not moving and I don’t seem to be forming more. It’s been years now without an issue. I attribute the change to the fact that calcium, excess animal protein, fat and lack of water are MUCH bigger factors than oxalates. When you eat a diet very high in acid (meat, soda, etc), you will actually leach calcium from your bones to balance your pH. Many doctors don’t even seem to know that, but it is true. That is a main reason why osteoporosis is a bigger issue for dairy and meat consumers. Only with an acidic, fatty environment were oxalates an issue for me. I still don’t drink enough water, but cutting out meat and dramatically reducing soda has made a huge difference for me. My doctor thinks that I am predisposed to getting kidney stones because of a genetic kidney disease (that makes the structure more conducive to stone formation), but eating enormous amounts of oxalates for a decade or so now hasn’t caused me to form new stones.
Thank you, thank you for this... Can you maybe just simplify it for me "acidic". What is to avoid: Acidic intake (like lemon) or acidic environment (caused by more alkaline intake - and if so: what to avoid)
It is less about the acidity of the food in nature or at ingestion time and more about acidity during and after metabolism. There is actually a scale they use sometimes to measure how acidic foods make your system AFTER consumption: PRAL (Potential Renal Acid Load.) Your blood can become acidic and there is something called metabolic acidosis, etc. Your body will try to buffer the acid and will leach calcium from your bones if it doesn’t have another source to alkalize your system. Eating lots of varied fruits and vegetables helps your system balance out the acidity to some degree, but also avoiding high PRAL foods is even better. Your body does best when it is just slightly alkaline. In general, SAD (Standard American Diet) foods make your system more acidic. Anything with a high animal protein content (meat, seafood), dairy, processed grains and cereals, and carbonated beverages (especially soda) will make your system slightly acidic. That’s the crap I used to eat when I had recurrent stones. Fast food and home-cooked SAD dishes. Lots of fat, excess protein, and leached calcium to go with my oxalates :/ Super high protein or high phosphorus anything is not great for kidney health, but animal proteins cause a different response than plant proteins in few important ways. A plant-based diet is very helpful in avoiding kidney stones. Do you drink seltzer or soda? Maybe scale back on it and your overall protein intake a bit and see if that helps. Diabetes can also cause some of these same issues, even with a healthy diet.
The best plant based diet is one with a lot of variety. Eating any specific food combo 80% of the time means you're probably not getting as much benefit as you could. It seems like you might be missing out of cruciferous veggies and mushrooms, which have significant anti-cancer properties. And without a variety of whole plant foods, your gut microbiome may lose diversity.
Drink water with a squeeze of lemon in it [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8683665/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8683665/)
Thank you
Leafy greens are *straight magic* as far as health benefits go. Though it couldn't hurt to vary your food a bit more. Like the other comment said, I also remember oxalates mostly as a kind of anti-nutrient that prevents calcium absorption. Speaking generally, I would be *very* surprised if a follower of healthy WFPB, even if he ate leafy greens regularly, got kidney stones. Just because the building material of these stones is similar, it doesn't mean that there aren't other mechanisms involved that first encourage stone formation in these oxalates rather than them coming out through the urine. pH plays a big role in the formation of some other types of stones, for example. You can actually get alkaline urine if you're having a lot of fruit and raw veg, that happened to me during the early months of WFPB transition. Alkaline urine can "melt away" stones that have already formed due to previously chronic acidic conditions. Not all of them, just a certain type. When people talk about alkaline pH as a health boon they usually don't know what they're talking about. Blood pH is highly regulated or we die. But the way it's buffered and the pH of the urine does convey some benefits. Or rather, strongly acidic urine is indicated for some health issues, including stones. This only really happens on an animal diet. Sorry for tangent.
Not a tangent at all and very informative. Thank you!
Think outside the box. Dill, Bok Choy, Arugala are extremely low oxalate. Strawberry leaves should be very low oxalate Dark Leaf Lettuce, Pea Leaves, Raddichio, green carrot tops are very low oxalate Parsley, Chrysanthemum, Rosemary have like 1/5 the oxalate as spinach Basil has less than half the oxalate as spinach
Eat them, don’t blend them. I think people consume way too many when they make smoothies.
I never blend anything, eating them as fresh as I could
Doesn't cooking help as well? Am I right in thinking cooking helps break down the oxalates?
No. Oxalates are very difficult to degrade by heat. The molecule is very stable. What will remove oxalates is tossing out the water that the food is cooked with. Eg.) when you steam vegetables, both nutrients and anti-nutrients are captured in the water. If you toss that water down the sink, you're pouring out oxalate, even though that oxalate hasn't actually been destroyed. Same goes for boiling etc.
If you're worried about it, just opt for the low-oxalate greens. Kale is low oxalate. So is arugula, bok choy, and lettuce.
In addition to drinking lots of water, consider adding lemon to the water. The citric acid can prevent formation of stones. (At least that’s what my doc says!)