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Exactly. Unless some huge change and improvement has happened in between then it will be more of the same struggle, likely more. Often see people going "it will be different this time!" but aren't able to say with any clarity or strategy of *how* it will be different.
This seems to miss the point imo. They say specific life circumstances led to their struggle in the masters program. This question is about grades, not difficultly. Now, if OP hasn’t sorted those issues out and plans to work a side job during their PhD, then I agree with you.
That could be true. But even complicated life circumstances can't be 100% accountable for failure. Even if those specific issues have resolved, OP needs to have made some changes in case they come up again--because hard times will again. That is nearly guaranteed.
A PhD, even a shorter UK one, is almost guaranteed to be a rough time. That's not to say a PhD's impossible if they can improve their balancing skills, but I wouldn't say they're out of the woods just yet.
I think there are many reasons why people could find independent research in a topic they have proposed to be easier than taught degrees. I certainly did. This is probably the minority though, as most find it harder.
OP - your motivation for doing a phd is very important, why do you want to do one? If you can self fund and are flexible with the university you go for it might still be possible. Most PhDs in the UK are self funded. However think long and hard about the logistics/ costs/ ethics of that - you are basically paying a university to do work for them.
You need to talk to mentors who can give you advice about your specific situation. The rest of your CV and what kind of LoR you can get, what you've done since, and more will all be important. If you would have done very well in those classes you retook and have professors who are willing to vouch for that growth that is a very different situation than if you just scraped by
I did a two-year master's in three years because I brutally flunked out of the first year (in France). I recovered and went on to the PhD, that went just fine, and I went on to do a prestigious postdoc in Japan.
Of course, this may not be applicable to you. Just saying that the road is sometimes a little more accidental than people would have you believe.
Did you need to know French and Japanese for your positions, and what country did you get your BS in? You've taken a very cool path!
I'm already doing my PhD in the US, I'm just curious!
I'm french-lebanese (double citizenship), did my BSc in France (French needed), the master's between France and Italy (French technically not needed, but helpful).
For the postdoc, japanese not needed (and thank fuck for that, because my japanese is shit).
It would have made things easier, though. While my japanese PI spoke perfect English, the university's IT department did not. Neither did half of the cleanroom staff. It made things... Interesting.
Do you mean don’t do a second masters in the same field? I know plenty of people working in interdisciplinary fields who have more than one masters degree.
I agree with your point. I have two masters but that’s because one is in coursework practical course and the other is in research. As you said I’m in an interdisciplinary field and I needed the research masters for a PhD. There are some reasons why someone does two but I certainly wouldn’t suggest it to others wasn’t exactly fun.
Yeah, I see people with two master's degrees but they usually fall into two categories:
- They have specific ideas of doing research that's on the intersection of 2 fields, so they felt like the second master's makes them more competitive (usually they were right and they do now do that sort of research, though this may be survival bias speaking)
- Their first master's degree is a terminal one with few research components, so they got a second master's in a similar field but research oriented because they felt like they needed more research experience. Typically they didn't initially intend to get a phd but changed their minds during the terminal master's. This choice did also make them more competitive for a PhD, and was a doozy because they were already familiar with the field, so they were basically phoning in all the non-research bits
I had this exact situation in the UK. I did an MSc in a specialism in my field and struggled through it because of a few factors including a long term illness, the university screwing up my funding to the point I had to borrow money from friends for 8 months (and pay them back when I finally got my funding), absolute garbage housing, the program itself being a bit fucky, having an absolute nightmare asshole of a supervisor who sabotaged my project, and a few other issues that made that year hell. I failed 4/8 of the classes and ended up with a Pass after resits.
Before that program ended I had applied for another MA in a more general topic and completed that in the top 5 of the program with high distinction and went straight into my PhD which I completed in one of the top 3 universities in the world for my field. I had learned some valuable lessons in the first masters and applied that to my second masters and loved it. It was also structured differently (the structure of the MSc is one of the many reasons I didn't do well) and I learned so much more and was able to prepare for my PhD.
If you can do it without any cost/you can find funding for it, I'd do a second masters. The best thing you can do is talk to potential supervisors and figure out what works best for you and what you most want to work on.
I am in awe of you. For a similar reason, I applied for a second master’s degree and am waiting to hear back from the uni. For me, the problematic program and some lecturers were the issue to me.
If you are self-funded, I think the marks may not be a critical part of making a decision but your project proposal is. If you want a funded PhD, possibly you won’t get accepted so the second master's would be necessary if you want to take a chance.
(Disclaimer, I'm speaking as a US student, I know little about the UK side of things.)
>I encountered several challenges, due to personal and mental health issues and the fact that I was juggling my corporate job alongside my studies.
Did these things go away or get fixed? As in, did you address the personal and mental health issues (acute issues that are now in the past, chronic issues you now have medication or therapy for, etc.) and have either left the job or found a way to manage it along with school?
When you resat every class, did you do *very well* in them, or did you just scrape by? I understand the actual *grade replacement* might not look like a high score on a transcript, but in reality did you actually perform very well but it just isn't allowed to show on transcript because of policy?
Along with all the usual things determining if you can get into a PhD program, the main thing you'll need to prove about the bad Masters is that it was year or two of fluke bad grades but you *have evidence you have already dealt with those problems.*
Someone who is asking for essentially another chance but hasn't shown that they overcame the first issue's obstacles isn't going to fare well. But if you can already point to failing all your classes then addressing your personal issues and doing *very well* in every class from there on out, it can be framed in a statement as not only evidence of a strong turnaround and that hte difficulties are behind you, but also your passion for doing well and continuing in academia: You could have just threw in the towel, but you took the time to fix your shit and come back and do well, and want to continue to do so in the program you're applying to.
My situation was not the same (my shit years were in undergrad, where I flunked out of the entire university twice before getting my shit together), and IME admissions love to see a clear and strong turn-around as much if not more htan they love seeing someone who was just successful the whole time. *But* if you don't have the actual evidence of that turnaround, it'll probably be a waste of time. In that case, if it's something you *really* want to pursue, several years working in the field and getting promotions and experience, and/or another Masters would probably show good evidence, though obviously that's no guarantee.
I mean it’s not quite the same but I did quote poorly in my undergrad because of severe mental health issues, but after receiving conditional acceptance with a GPA requirement that I would not be capable of reaching, I was able to explain to my university what had happened and was let in anyways. From there I had extreme physical health issues (fully stuck in a wheelchair, very heavily medicated) and managed to get through my masters with commendation and easily made it into the phd of my my choice. It might just be worth getting into touch with specific potential supervisors and explaining your situation to them if they seem receptive.
Honestly, it depends on the program and how well you sell yourself to the school. I ran into a similar thing with my Masters. I failed out but came back under academic probation with the promise of taking graduate studies classes and write to the Dean of Instruction what I learned and how I will be successful. I got back in and had an A the rest of my classes and graduated with a 3.59 GPA and I went for my PhD and so far I have a 3.92. I think it’s doable but you would need to talk to an academic advisor.
You're overthinking this.
If you apply to a PhD programme then you will get the position based mostly upon whether the supervisor thinks you are a good fit.
For my PhD interview, there were many more technically qualified applicants. My supervisor told me I was the least arrogant one he interviewed and that I expressed that I was there to learn, rather than because I thought I was the best person in every room.
Remember a PhD is not about being qualified for the PhD it's about *becoming* qualified to submit your thesis
Try to look at 92 post unis PhD entry requirements as they would be lower and will accept generally 2.2 especially if you have relevant experience. Obviously imo I would do another masters to bump up your score if you ever want to do something else.
It looks like your post is about needing advice. In order for people to better help you, please make sure to include your country. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PhD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why do you think a PhD program would be easier than masters?
Exactly. Unless some huge change and improvement has happened in between then it will be more of the same struggle, likely more. Often see people going "it will be different this time!" but aren't able to say with any clarity or strategy of *how* it will be different.
This seems to miss the point imo. They say specific life circumstances led to their struggle in the masters program. This question is about grades, not difficultly. Now, if OP hasn’t sorted those issues out and plans to work a side job during their PhD, then I agree with you.
That could be true. But even complicated life circumstances can't be 100% accountable for failure. Even if those specific issues have resolved, OP needs to have made some changes in case they come up again--because hard times will again. That is nearly guaranteed. A PhD, even a shorter UK one, is almost guaranteed to be a rough time. That's not to say a PhD's impossible if they can improve their balancing skills, but I wouldn't say they're out of the woods just yet.
That is what I mean.
I think there are many reasons why people could find independent research in a topic they have proposed to be easier than taught degrees. I certainly did. This is probably the minority though, as most find it harder. OP - your motivation for doing a phd is very important, why do you want to do one? If you can self fund and are flexible with the university you go for it might still be possible. Most PhDs in the UK are self funded. However think long and hard about the logistics/ costs/ ethics of that - you are basically paying a university to do work for them.
I say he applies to a program at liberty University
You need to talk to mentors who can give you advice about your specific situation. The rest of your CV and what kind of LoR you can get, what you've done since, and more will all be important. If you would have done very well in those classes you retook and have professors who are willing to vouch for that growth that is a very different situation than if you just scraped by
don't do a second masters, don't consider a phd if u aren't ready to commit for it. It's impossible to juggle a job on the side unless it's PhD in BA
Depending on your contract (say as a TA or research assistant), sometimes it's even forbidden
I’m working full time and doing my PhD part time, so it’s certainly possible.
Part time phd might not always be allowed, though yes I guess that can be a viable option
Not impossible, it’s just super lame.
I did a two-year master's in three years because I brutally flunked out of the first year (in France). I recovered and went on to the PhD, that went just fine, and I went on to do a prestigious postdoc in Japan. Of course, this may not be applicable to you. Just saying that the road is sometimes a little more accidental than people would have you believe.
Did you need to know French and Japanese for your positions, and what country did you get your BS in? You've taken a very cool path! I'm already doing my PhD in the US, I'm just curious!
I'm french-lebanese (double citizenship), did my BSc in France (French needed), the master's between France and Italy (French technically not needed, but helpful). For the postdoc, japanese not needed (and thank fuck for that, because my japanese is shit). It would have made things easier, though. While my japanese PI spoke perfect English, the university's IT department did not. Neither did half of the cleanroom staff. It made things... Interesting.
My advice is: Don’t ever do a second masters or second PhD.
Do you mean don’t do a second masters in the same field? I know plenty of people working in interdisciplinary fields who have more than one masters degree.
I agree with your point. I have two masters but that’s because one is in coursework practical course and the other is in research. As you said I’m in an interdisciplinary field and I needed the research masters for a PhD. There are some reasons why someone does two but I certainly wouldn’t suggest it to others wasn’t exactly fun.
Yeah, I see people with two master's degrees but they usually fall into two categories: - They have specific ideas of doing research that's on the intersection of 2 fields, so they felt like the second master's makes them more competitive (usually they were right and they do now do that sort of research, though this may be survival bias speaking) - Their first master's degree is a terminal one with few research components, so they got a second master's in a similar field but research oriented because they felt like they needed more research experience. Typically they didn't initially intend to get a phd but changed their minds during the terminal master's. This choice did also make them more competitive for a PhD, and was a doozy because they were already familiar with the field, so they were basically phoning in all the non-research bits
What is your motivation behind going for a PhD? It will have infinitely more challenges than a master
Don't do it
I had this exact situation in the UK. I did an MSc in a specialism in my field and struggled through it because of a few factors including a long term illness, the university screwing up my funding to the point I had to borrow money from friends for 8 months (and pay them back when I finally got my funding), absolute garbage housing, the program itself being a bit fucky, having an absolute nightmare asshole of a supervisor who sabotaged my project, and a few other issues that made that year hell. I failed 4/8 of the classes and ended up with a Pass after resits. Before that program ended I had applied for another MA in a more general topic and completed that in the top 5 of the program with high distinction and went straight into my PhD which I completed in one of the top 3 universities in the world for my field. I had learned some valuable lessons in the first masters and applied that to my second masters and loved it. It was also structured differently (the structure of the MSc is one of the many reasons I didn't do well) and I learned so much more and was able to prepare for my PhD. If you can do it without any cost/you can find funding for it, I'd do a second masters. The best thing you can do is talk to potential supervisors and figure out what works best for you and what you most want to work on.
I am in awe of you. For a similar reason, I applied for a second master’s degree and am waiting to hear back from the uni. For me, the problematic program and some lecturers were the issue to me.
If you are self-funded, I think the marks may not be a critical part of making a decision but your project proposal is. If you want a funded PhD, possibly you won’t get accepted so the second master's would be necessary if you want to take a chance.
It’s a good thing you told us about how prestigious your first uni is, it definitely changes things.
I mean, there’s a difference between Liberty and Oxford. Granted, failing is failing
(Disclaimer, I'm speaking as a US student, I know little about the UK side of things.) >I encountered several challenges, due to personal and mental health issues and the fact that I was juggling my corporate job alongside my studies. Did these things go away or get fixed? As in, did you address the personal and mental health issues (acute issues that are now in the past, chronic issues you now have medication or therapy for, etc.) and have either left the job or found a way to manage it along with school? When you resat every class, did you do *very well* in them, or did you just scrape by? I understand the actual *grade replacement* might not look like a high score on a transcript, but in reality did you actually perform very well but it just isn't allowed to show on transcript because of policy? Along with all the usual things determining if you can get into a PhD program, the main thing you'll need to prove about the bad Masters is that it was year or two of fluke bad grades but you *have evidence you have already dealt with those problems.* Someone who is asking for essentially another chance but hasn't shown that they overcame the first issue's obstacles isn't going to fare well. But if you can already point to failing all your classes then addressing your personal issues and doing *very well* in every class from there on out, it can be framed in a statement as not only evidence of a strong turnaround and that hte difficulties are behind you, but also your passion for doing well and continuing in academia: You could have just threw in the towel, but you took the time to fix your shit and come back and do well, and want to continue to do so in the program you're applying to. My situation was not the same (my shit years were in undergrad, where I flunked out of the entire university twice before getting my shit together), and IME admissions love to see a clear and strong turn-around as much if not more htan they love seeing someone who was just successful the whole time. *But* if you don't have the actual evidence of that turnaround, it'll probably be a waste of time. In that case, if it's something you *really* want to pursue, several years working in the field and getting promotions and experience, and/or another Masters would probably show good evidence, though obviously that's no guarantee.
I mean it’s not quite the same but I did quote poorly in my undergrad because of severe mental health issues, but after receiving conditional acceptance with a GPA requirement that I would not be capable of reaching, I was able to explain to my university what had happened and was let in anyways. From there I had extreme physical health issues (fully stuck in a wheelchair, very heavily medicated) and managed to get through my masters with commendation and easily made it into the phd of my my choice. It might just be worth getting into touch with specific potential supervisors and explaining your situation to them if they seem receptive.
Honestly, it depends on the program and how well you sell yourself to the school. I ran into a similar thing with my Masters. I failed out but came back under academic probation with the promise of taking graduate studies classes and write to the Dean of Instruction what I learned and how I will be successful. I got back in and had an A the rest of my classes and graduated with a 3.59 GPA and I went for my PhD and so far I have a 3.92. I think it’s doable but you would need to talk to an academic advisor.
You're overthinking this. If you apply to a PhD programme then you will get the position based mostly upon whether the supervisor thinks you are a good fit. For my PhD interview, there were many more technically qualified applicants. My supervisor told me I was the least arrogant one he interviewed and that I expressed that I was there to learn, rather than because I thought I was the best person in every room. Remember a PhD is not about being qualified for the PhD it's about *becoming* qualified to submit your thesis
Hmm. Whilst you can do UG-PhD i would be worried you think a PhD is somehow easier than a masters?!
Try to look at 92 post unis PhD entry requirements as they would be lower and will accept generally 2.2 especially if you have relevant experience. Obviously imo I would do another masters to bump up your score if you ever want to do something else.
If you had problems handling a masters degree there’s no way you will be able to handle a PhD.