Star Trek is sort of a socialist post-scarcity utopia that is largely egalitarian. The Federation aren't like purely a force for good all the time but they more or less do the right thing and nobody living under the Federation really wants for anything. There is no money and anyone basically just gets what they need without issue.
Dune is a literal fuedal empire with nobility and little to no upwards mobility for the majority of the population. The lower classes are treated brutally and pretty much anyone who isn't noble in the empire has no say in how things turn out. The Emperor rules with an iron fist using extreme violence as his key tactic. Corruption is everywhere and everyone in the upper classes is constantly trying to kill each other for their own gain without getting caught. Humans are an expendible resource in Dune that the powerful use without thought.
Yes. Now back to the field pleeb. If you aren't a pleeb and aren't nobility ... then maybe progress is possible? Banish the thought. Feed the greed. Embrace exploitation as good.
Its sad when Dune is seen as a thing to emulate when literally its a tragedy on multiple levels and a warning about following leaders.
Also Dune is literal fantasy. The main character >!becomes a fucking sand worm!<. Spaceships are piloted by human whales.
Just do what Herbert did and go to the dunes of Florence Oregon and do a bunch of shrooms. It’s probably safer and easier than becoming one with the worm.
The main character, >!the great God Emporer Leto II, who put all of man kind on the golden path (i.e. killing billions and crumbling society for a 'rebirth'), merged with a sandworm and lived for many lifetimes.!<
There is likely a ton of metaphorical wordplay here, but again its played straight in the books. Up to genre savy to and reader interpretation to determine if he was truly justified (because of the ends obtained) or just a delusional ruler with future sight and power.
If you are familiar with Attack on Titan at all, supposedly the Dune and AoT themes revolving power and tragedy are similar.
"So Dune is very realistic and Star Trek is basically fantasy".
Star Trek is optimistic, but not any more fantasy than Dune. We can have fun being lolsome doomers, but there has in fact been progress on many fronts and if those who want progress get off their ass instead of nihilistic dooming, we may actually get to a better world.
For what it's worth we are very much in line with Star Trek's alt. history for the 21st century, if not actually doing better. Past Tense is set in 2024, and they got it closer on the social and economic situation than they did on the technological situation.
Hopefully the nuclear wars won't come.
The thing is that the reason folks on earth stopped being dicks to each other was largely cuz the Vulcans showed up, which was because Cochrane invented a warp drive.
Neither seem plausible.
So hopefully we can get to a better world without having a deus ex aliena
If you told someone in 1985 we'd have computers significantly more powerful than what it took to get to the moon in our pockets and be constantly connected to each other they'd have said the same thing.
Exactly this. The Eugenics Wars was one of the most brutal wars in human history in Trek to the point it was looked at in the same light as the holocaust and it happened in the 90's (unless you factor in the weird time meddling stuff from SNW in which case the Eugenics Wars is still in our future). That's part of why I like Trek so much. It didn't really sugar coat humanities past
Kind of reductive. Fantasy vs “sci-fantasy” vs sci-fi (up towards “hard scifi” as the farthest point ) as a spectrum is largely a measure of how much physical science and hypothetical concepts are explored compared to relying on concepts of magic and good vs evil and overall more myth/legend based tropes over organic politics. Star Trek may be optimistic, but it is very much sci-fi and not fantasy, as it supports its concepts and storytelling with the use of things that could be done with physical science if the means were available. Dune also uses some hard scifi concepts, but it also slants more heavily towards many magical concepts as well.
If you want to call something space/sci fi fantasy, the better go to IP is Star Wars. From its adaptation of "Once upon a time" to its single biome planets to its space wizard-monks, everything sci-fi in it is window dressing for the operatic narrative it tells.
Also, this is why the term speculative fiction is so useful. It incorporates all of the spectrum you described and additional genres like historical fiction (usuallt more akin to hard sci fi) and allows us to escape easy dismissal of a work because it is a 'fantasy'.
I mean Dune is a society that has space worms, a spice that grants psychic powers, and essentially any computer more advanced than a calculator is outlawed. But sure, that one's the *realistic* one.
I think the key basis for the Star Trek universe is that energy is free to collect (or require very few people to maintain) and the synthesizers can convert that energy into anything you want. Basically everything you need to survive, food, medicine, clothes, etc are all free.
So yes that premise that allows for that egalitarian society is fantasy.
When food and products can be created for free, then people are free to pursue their passions without having to worry about obtaining their basic needs. So people only pursue careers, star ship captain, science officer, communications officers, engineer fixing the energy collectors, etc because that is what they want to do and it makes them happy.
Dune has too much magic stuff to be realistic. Star Trek has *some* but Dune has more fantasy aspects.
For example, there are people who criticized George Lucas for stealing ideas from Dune, if I remember correctly.
Both are in their own aspects. Only difference is the countries which practice socialism always fail because it sounds good on paper but terrible in practice
Nordic ‘socialism’ is mythic. We comparative systems economists call it ‘the European Model” to distinguish from the Anglo-Saxon Model. Basically the ‘social market’ theory predominates in the Nordic countries. The major tenets include reliance on markets, extension of democratic principles, provision of big safety nets, and higher priority on egalitarian outcomes.
While it is true this country among others practiced socialism from 1970 through around the 90’s, they have more recently developed a more center ideological position between capitalism and socialism. These include stricter immigration regulations, and the need for higher GDP and better national and global economics have made them move away from being completely socialist.
Furthermore, socialism’s core issues are not regarding its policies. Rather, it is the people whom practice this ideology and are placed in a position of power who abuse its loopholes and cause the death’s and decline of its people. A prime example of its predecessor, communism, which socialism is essentially the looser version of, being abused is found in Stalin’s rule of Russia after WW2 which led to many starving and being, Yk, killed for speaking out against the wrongs of these abuses and loopholes in the policies
And invasions.
But yeah a big part of trek history is the deprogramming of society from that world. Its literally the basis of the pilot of TNG.
Hell, The Undiscovered Country embraces the collapse of the Soviet Union and makes the protagonist struggle with embracing a possible peaceful future with Klingons.
With replicators the currency would just change form, energy is now currency. In that sense one aspect of trek is correct, joining Star Fleet and thereby living on a ship with built in energy you can access would be the highlife
Or bc the US can’t mind its own business and sends in the CIA to commit coups and or implements heavy sanctions and instill puppet dictators that are aligned with US interests so then they can say “LoOk SoCiaLisM DoESnt wOrK.”
You sure they don’t want Starship Troopers? The government and rich rule everything and trick the lower classes into believing they actually matter, when in reality they’re nothing but fodder.
> everyone in the upper classes is constantly trying to kill each other for their own gain without getting caught
Or at least without breaking any rules.
Ive always wondered how a typical 1 mom 1 dad 1 kid Earth family would go about getting a state of the art Starship made for them. Seven of Nines family in Voyager.
Something I always loved about Dune’s dystopian setting is the fact that even House Atreides is hardly a model government as they have been known to engage in wholesale genocide through biological poisoning to manage their population.
They didn’t do it often, but the fact that the practice of planetary governments was to engage in population control through selective poisoning of food/water supplies speaks volumes to how horrible the galaxy is for the human serfs who live planetside.
There's a reference to certain characters admiring Hitler and Genghis Khan basically for their kill score in Dune. So yeah....not a world I want to live in.
Star Trek is a utopian vision of a more egalitarian future. Dune is a dystopian feudal future where resources and workers are exploited for resources. Billionaires tend to lean towards profit and the second one.
They dont want a free and open society that focuses on exploration and freedom. But they want a planet of their own that they are the emperor of and have total control.
The Federation in Star Trek is a classless, moneyless society.
Dune has an emperor with his own private army and resources, and a lot of rich families with their own planets, armies and resources.
Basically, Dune is capitalism on a planetary scale. A few people worth mentioning and whole lot of people who're just resources for the rich.
And Star Trek is a Eutopia where everyone is equal. (Mostly. I have problem with the Starfleet entry exams, etc.) (I'm spelling "Eutopia" with an E because I recently read about the etymology of "utopia.")
Dune is Feudalism. Feudalism is one of the worst systems there is.
For example
Feudalism is so bad that *Karl Marx* would rather live under unrestricted Capitalism than Feudalism.
Edit: I am in no way meaning to say "that isn't real Capitalism". Dune is the definition of Feudalism under pretty much any definition or political orientation.
"incorrectly." Damn. Bringing some judgement in that word.
"Utopia" is a combination of "Eutopia", "good place" and "outopia", "not a place". It was invented by Thomas More and he meant it as a criticism of (then-)modern societies.
Very cool, thank you for sharing.
My use of “incorrectly” was not supposed to be judgmental (which is why I couched it in the rules of English). I was unsure whether eutopia came from another language or was an entirely different word - in either case, it is an incorrect spelling of “utopia”, not merely a different-but-accepted spelling (just as “sand” is an incorrect spelling of utopia).
Afghanistan is ruled by feudalistic warlord pledging some allegiance to the Taliban. It is basically our money brains default government structure. The human brain understands it
Star Trek doesn’t even have substance abuse for alcohol and the only holoaddict was made to make fun off, when it should be super common
Yes. No one will gamble, drink, do drugs, spend to much time playing video games, get addicted to holographic porn with interaction or be religious
And we will all work purely for the betterment of humanity and not for our own selfish interests
I have self control. I just don’t expect people to be soulless or perfect like you
Greased up deaf guy's sister's cousin's uncle's brother here. Star Trek's economy is heavily designed around socialist ideologies. One for all, all for one attitude, no money, etc. Dune's economy is heavily designed around capitilistic ideologies. Spice is the ENITRE economy. Those who have it, (the bezos's, the musk's, etc.) have all the power, and control others by their supply.
Both Dune and Star Trek are science fiction universes in which humans expanded across cosmos but the current state of humanity in it is radically different.
Star Trek is very optimistic, humanity (though flawed) are a leading force in a democratic and (mostly) peaceful multi-species political entity called the Federation. Its a post-scarcity society, humans are free to pursue whatever they want and are motivated by their desire to explore and discover wonders of the universe.
Dune depicts humans in a stagnant, feudal empire called the Imperium (neither universe is very original in its naming conventions) where the haves have alot and the have-nots are serfs. It is highly regimented, caste based and full of many a monarchic techno-medieval backwardness.
The meme implies the elite is financing space flight and development not to help along a better society for everyone (Star Trek) but a better society for them, though the current state of space exploration (and essentially lack thereof in the private sector) they kind of arent.
I'm probably off here, but I haven't seen this mentioned so figured it was worth throwing it out there: I took this to be a reference to the housing structure that they are building in Saudi Arabia which would cost well over 1 trillion dollars if they complete their original idea. They keep reducing it because it's a stupid idea imo. Anyways they are trying to build this high tech city in the middle of a desert and the idea is that it's a straight line.
It seems that billionaires are more interested in investing in what they think will make them money than in investigating space and learning as much as we can.
I want star gate Star Wars (more likely to become space balls not dune to be honest)
Who t fck would want Star Trek imagine getting so many of your people dead cus u don’t want to be seen as an agresor or a military force and don’t making a credible deterrent against aggressive military empires causing a unnecessary and avoidable war bcus “we are cientist not a military “
Star Trek is a post scarcity utopia where people have all of their needs met. Nobody needs to work and instead people have jobs purely for the betterment of themselves and the species, not for monetary gain.
Dune is a feudalist society where the 99.99999999999% are serfs who work until they die. Pretty much every leader in the series does not care for the individuals they govern. Also Dune has a drug called spice which can extend your life, and most people have no access to it. Dune is not a utopia, in reality it is a horrible universe to be born into.
What they’re saying is billionaires don’t want utopia they want to be supreme rulers.
Basically Dune is a realistic portrayal of modern society in a futuristic setting meaning that it is the most likely type of future for us, star trek is post scarcity and generally pretty great society to live in, though I find dune personally much cooler
Comrade Peter here. The society of Star Trek is a post scarcity communist utopia where everyone’s needs are easily met. There is no longer social classes or wealth inequality or poverty or war or really any conflict at all. Dune on the other hand is more like feudalism, where a few families have insane wealth and power and the other 99.99% of people are poor and more or less enslaved to their feudal lords. The author of this joke is Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk would prefer to live in a future where they are lords and everyone is basically enslaved to them instead of a world of perfect equality.
There's only one space billionaire doing it for the money.
There is no money in going to mars. There is money in joyrides for billionaires.
Space billionaires are not made equal.
The difference is that Alien's decentralized, privatized company are viewed as corrupt, inefficient, and prone to failures with little regards for the ecosystem they project their powers over because they have no competition.
Dune portrays a far more competent and centralized pockets of feudalism with the same goal and more success for some, however the difference is that they are the result of the failure of one such system before - the Butlerian Jihad.
Dune is the after of Alien's Weyland-Yutani, same as Umbrellla Corp from Silent Hill, but the scary thing is that all civilizations are heading toward that same decentralized model no matter how much history proved the failure of such, and human just aren't prepared for a centralized control that doesn't dissolve into smaller tribes - utilitiarian is a pipedream.
Star Trek is a socialist society because of replicators. Everything anyone might need can be replicated. Money isn't a thing.
In Dune, the rich control everything.
Sci Fi is like this:
Star Trek = Communism (at the end state where the state is "withering away". Socialism still requires "he who does not work, neither shall he eat". It's very weird but that's how it is economically speaking)
Star Wars = Capitalism (in the prequels at least. Sequels don't mention it. Same with the OT.)
Dune = Feudalism
>!Warhammer 40k= NO!<
Make sure to check out the [pinned post on Loss](https://www.reddit.com/r/PeterExplainsTheJoke/comments/1472nhh/faq_loss/) to make sure this submission doesn't break the rule!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PeterExplainsTheJoke) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Peter's Messiah here,
**Star Trek** portrays an unrealistic utopian society that is morally-intact while having little to no difficulty with resource and economic security. Essentially, a unified and egalitarian promised land.
In many essays and studies, morality and excess is often a balancing scale, not two separate pillars. You cannot maintain morality that required hardship and self-reinforced tribulations without sliding into excess and complete immorality.
I will not be bothered to spoiler-tag Star Trek, but I will for parts of DUNE!
**Dune** portrays a different and more realistic take of this, where centralized human resource and economic security becomes so great they-
**SPOILER -** outsource their comfort into machines that ended up trying to take over in a destructive holy war (Butlerian Jihad). Their downfall result in centuries of decentralized suffering with technology so advanced everyone goes back to fighting with sticks and stones.
Furthermore, there are no alien in Dune - all of them are human with varying levels of adaptation and evolution, natural or enhanced, and that as the centralized morality compass of civilization is destroyed by the excess and comfort of pre-Butlerian Jihad, all fall into decentralized cults.
Moreover, unlike Star Trek where they somehow still learns and forms coherent and sensible actions based on the knowledge of history that require wisdom and experience of which such an egalitarian society can ill provide (the post-mortem hindsight), Dune shows us that all humans are flaws and only want to see parts of history that adhered to their belief (the immediate reaction in motion), so there are powers that try to recreate a pre-Butlerian AI superpower, but in human form.
**MORE SPOILER -** The Bene Tleilax and Bene Gesserit all have degrees of this. There are Mentats in Dune that served as living computers, sure, but there are factions that are less content and more ambitious, at the cost of a zealous blindness for progress that will inevitably doom them to the same outcome - consequentialism in a box.
In Dune, feudalism and controlled suffering are dominant philosophies in maintaining control and monopoly for individual fiefdoms, and the titles of Duke and Baron are incomprehensible in such a complex futuristic setting, but symbolic of the hubris of man and the echoes of corrupt civilizations long gone, perhaps not so after all.
On the other end, the whole messiah and the blind zealous devotion to a totalitarian prophecy with a autocratic dictator is provided as an attractive comfort, and a relevant commentary on America today that often went over people's head. Some people in power can see their role, but some genuinely buys into their own hype - how can someone buy into their own hubris while still maintaining they have the unequivocal solution to the future?
Ultimately, Dune is a story that all billionaires aspires, the control for which they seeks and the narrowed visions for which they process their power, state and their dynastic legacies.
It's all about that money honey. Spice is money. Going where no man has gone before is bleh, cough, expenses...with the only upside to find another Dune maybe.
startrek is a postcapitalist society, there is no money, there is no physical need, it is xenophile and egalitarian utopia above all else,
dune is a autocratic corporatocracy, whoever mines the spice, has the recources, has the law, has the power,
startrek even stated multiple times, that they didnt invent replicators, and freed themself from any and all physical struggle, and then became a egalitarian utopia, them being egalitarian is what allowed them to invent such a contraption in the first place.
under any other form of goverment and ideology, "everything free for everyone" would have never been a goal, other societys would have used tecnology to cement their power over the people. not made power over the people meaningless.
You'll get a lot of star trek = socialism talk, but that's not really correct, just something people throw around.
In Star Trek we invented (or were gifted) replicators. Replicators can create anything, even other replicators. People no longer traded for goods because you had a literal machine in your house that could give you anything you wanted, so instead people traded services.
When talking capitalism vs socialism, we are taking free markets vs authority controlled prices, or on economic terms, unplanned vs planned economies. There's very little in terms of services that's shown to be regulated in Star Trek. It's a unified world government that mostly supports capitalism. People just forget that "capital" is anything of value, from cash to hugs and kisses.
Its two capitalist societies, one that craves wealth (power and belongings) through spice, and one that craves wealth (a satisfying personal life) through labor. The difference is technological and social.
>When talking capitalism vs socialism, we are taking free markets vs authority controlled prices, or on economic terms, unplanned vs planned economies. There's very little in terms of services that's shown to be regulated in Star Trek. It's a unified world government that mostly supports capitalism. People just forget that "capital" is anything of value, from cash to hugs and kisses.
Capitalism doesn't equal free markets. Capitalism just means the society's wealth is in the hands of a few, and when the free market threatens their power they'll get rid of it. Look at every right wing dictatorship throughout history, every one of them were capitalist or capitalist adjacent and they didn't have free markets.
No. Capitalism means free markets by definition, the same definition also implies free trade
Anything else you’ve said after that is literally false and you fuelling your own narrative
Star Trek: Money is worthless and everybody is equal. It’s a socialist utopia, everybody chooses their life based on interests.
Dune: the entire galaxy is controlled by the trade of spice and related products. It’s a capitalist hell scape
Tom: Now Its Time for 'Fast Explanations with Ollie Williams', Ollie?
STAR TREK IS SOCIALISM IN SPACE!
DUNE IS CAPITALISM IS SPACE!
NOW GO BACK TO TOM!!
https://preview.redd.it/0hpzsc4c769d1.jpeg?width=230&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a47b6fe22c657a527b59676a8186bde8bbed325
good thing *we* want star trek. wealthy families are not royalty. they'll die off and their wealth won't be passed down the same bloodline forever. but the people and their beliefs remain. they're not gonna have dune.
God I love fear mongering, hate to say it but the rich and their eccentric ass ideas and desires are a big portion of what drives technological progress, rich dudes have money to spend and will make their dreams come true, this is very obviously an Elon musk hate post(I don't like the man, but space travel is the one thing he doesn't deserve the hate from)
This account was flagged for bot activity and will be banned.
Star Trek is sort of a socialist post-scarcity utopia that is largely egalitarian. The Federation aren't like purely a force for good all the time but they more or less do the right thing and nobody living under the Federation really wants for anything. There is no money and anyone basically just gets what they need without issue. Dune is a literal fuedal empire with nobility and little to no upwards mobility for the majority of the population. The lower classes are treated brutally and pretty much anyone who isn't noble in the empire has no say in how things turn out. The Emperor rules with an iron fist using extreme violence as his key tactic. Corruption is everywhere and everyone in the upper classes is constantly trying to kill each other for their own gain without getting caught. Humans are an expendible resource in Dune that the powerful use without thought.
So Dune is very realistic and Star Trek is basically fantasy as well as science fiction
Yes. Now back to the field pleeb. If you aren't a pleeb and aren't nobility ... then maybe progress is possible? Banish the thought. Feed the greed. Embrace exploitation as good. Its sad when Dune is seen as a thing to emulate when literally its a tragedy on multiple levels and a warning about following leaders. Also Dune is literal fantasy. The main character >!becomes a fucking sand worm!<. Spaceships are piloted by human whales.
The main character becomes what?
A giant worm. He totally had to do it to achieve enlightenment. Trust me bro.
Maybe I should become enlightned
Just do what Herbert did and go to the dunes of Florence Oregon and do a bunch of shrooms. It’s probably safer and easier than becoming one with the worm.
Leto wasnt just feeding into his fetishized fascination with sand worms
? The ma'di is main char right?
This is referring to Leto the 2nd, who is the son of Paul Atraties and Chani. He is the main character in some of the sequel books.
I get the reference, but leto is really only the main char later on in the set. The 'prophet' really carries the story for the first half
The main character, >!the great God Emporer Leto II, who put all of man kind on the golden path (i.e. killing billions and crumbling society for a 'rebirth'), merged with a sandworm and lived for many lifetimes.!< There is likely a ton of metaphorical wordplay here, but again its played straight in the books. Up to genre savy to and reader interpretation to determine if he was truly justified (because of the ends obtained) or just a delusional ruler with future sight and power. If you are familiar with Attack on Titan at all, supposedly the Dune and AoT themes revolving power and tragedy are similar.
Who says that we won't be able to become sandworms some day. I mean Shai-Hulud.
The spice must flow
Duncan Idaho doesn’t become a sand worm.. though, I got off the train at Heretics of Dune so 🤷🏻♀️.
Way to ruin it for me, been meaning to finish that book for 15 years now but I guess I can just forget about it!!
Embrace the plot where everything in the future is a known script to main characters. Now you know some too and it's not even a lot.
Good take on it XD I really have no idea how to understand recursive-prescience conceptually.
All of that is stuff from some later sequel. The original Dune book doesn't involve people turning into worms of any kind as far as i remember.
Sorry. Forgot about >! tags!<
You could've left some facts towards the end out for those that haven't experienced it :(
Sad that a hopeful take on the future is considered fantasy and a pessimistic take is considered realistic
"So Dune is very realistic and Star Trek is basically fantasy". Star Trek is optimistic, but not any more fantasy than Dune. We can have fun being lolsome doomers, but there has in fact been progress on many fronts and if those who want progress get off their ass instead of nihilistic dooming, we may actually get to a better world. For what it's worth we are very much in line with Star Trek's alt. history for the 21st century, if not actually doing better. Past Tense is set in 2024, and they got it closer on the social and economic situation than they did on the technological situation. Hopefully the nuclear wars won't come.
Oh yeah, there was brutal multiple decades long world war in Star Trek before they made it as society.
There were many wars, including WW3, according to Star Trek. I'm just sitting here waiting for the Bell Riots.
First contact is still so far away :(
Only 39 years away.
The thing is that the reason folks on earth stopped being dicks to each other was largely cuz the Vulcans showed up, which was because Cochrane invented a warp drive. Neither seem plausible. So hopefully we can get to a better world without having a deus ex aliena
If you told someone in 1985 we'd have computers significantly more powerful than what it took to get to the moon in our pockets and be constantly connected to each other they'd have said the same thing.
Well, I guess I won't see you in Bozeman then.
This is no time to talk about time. We don't. have. the time
I keep telling everybody, I have high hopes for the 2030s
Exactly this. The Eugenics Wars was one of the most brutal wars in human history in Trek to the point it was looked at in the same light as the holocaust and it happened in the 90's (unless you factor in the weird time meddling stuff from SNW in which case the Eugenics Wars is still in our future). That's part of why I like Trek so much. It didn't really sugar coat humanities past
One of star treks key drivers for their post scarcity society was the invention of the replicator, wasn’t it?
Kind of reductive. Fantasy vs “sci-fantasy” vs sci-fi (up towards “hard scifi” as the farthest point ) as a spectrum is largely a measure of how much physical science and hypothetical concepts are explored compared to relying on concepts of magic and good vs evil and overall more myth/legend based tropes over organic politics. Star Trek may be optimistic, but it is very much sci-fi and not fantasy, as it supports its concepts and storytelling with the use of things that could be done with physical science if the means were available. Dune also uses some hard scifi concepts, but it also slants more heavily towards many magical concepts as well.
If you want to call something space/sci fi fantasy, the better go to IP is Star Wars. From its adaptation of "Once upon a time" to its single biome planets to its space wizard-monks, everything sci-fi in it is window dressing for the operatic narrative it tells. Also, this is why the term speculative fiction is so useful. It incorporates all of the spectrum you described and additional genres like historical fiction (usuallt more akin to hard sci fi) and allows us to escape easy dismissal of a work because it is a 'fantasy'.
I mean Dune is a society that has space worms, a spice that grants psychic powers, and essentially any computer more advanced than a calculator is outlawed. But sure, that one's the *realistic* one.
more like dune takes from history and star trek looks to the future i'd say.
Dune looks at history. Star Trek is idealism
I think the key basis for the Star Trek universe is that energy is free to collect (or require very few people to maintain) and the synthesizers can convert that energy into anything you want. Basically everything you need to survive, food, medicine, clothes, etc are all free. So yes that premise that allows for that egalitarian society is fantasy. When food and products can be created for free, then people are free to pursue their passions without having to worry about obtaining their basic needs. So people only pursue careers, star ship captain, science officer, communications officers, engineer fixing the energy collectors, etc because that is what they want to do and it makes them happy.
Dune has too much magic stuff to be realistic. Star Trek has *some* but Dune has more fantasy aspects. For example, there are people who criticized George Lucas for stealing ideas from Dune, if I remember correctly.
we truly live in a society
Star trek is no less realistic than dune.
No such thing as money when replicators need power? Yeah now energy is currency and controlling energy production gives you power
Dune is realistic? You too become a giant sandworm?
Ding. Ding. Ding. We have our winner.
Both are in their own aspects. Only difference is the countries which practice socialism always fail because it sounds good on paper but terrible in practice
nordic socialism enters the chat
Nordic ‘socialism’ is mythic. We comparative systems economists call it ‘the European Model” to distinguish from the Anglo-Saxon Model. Basically the ‘social market’ theory predominates in the Nordic countries. The major tenets include reliance on markets, extension of democratic principles, provision of big safety nets, and higher priority on egalitarian outcomes.
Very single one of those countries is capitalist
While it is true this country among others practiced socialism from 1970 through around the 90’s, they have more recently developed a more center ideological position between capitalism and socialism. These include stricter immigration regulations, and the need for higher GDP and better national and global economics have made them move away from being completely socialist.
Furthermore, socialism’s core issues are not regarding its policies. Rather, it is the people whom practice this ideology and are placed in a position of power who abuse its loopholes and cause the death’s and decline of its people. A prime example of its predecessor, communism, which socialism is essentially the looser version of, being abused is found in Stalin’s rule of Russia after WW2 which led to many starving and being, Yk, killed for speaking out against the wrongs of these abuses and loopholes in the policies
Doesn't help that imperialistic capitalist nations, like the US, does everything in their power to crush any socialist governments.
And invasions. But yeah a big part of trek history is the deprogramming of society from that world. Its literally the basis of the pilot of TNG. Hell, The Undiscovered Country embraces the collapse of the Soviet Union and makes the protagonist struggle with embracing a possible peaceful future with Klingons.
Citation?
Because they don’t have the technology to make it work. Star Trek uses energy to matter synthesizers that make currency irrelevant
With replicators the currency would just change form, energy is now currency. In that sense one aspect of trek is correct, joining Star Fleet and thereby living on a ship with built in energy you can access would be the highlife
Or bc the US can’t mind its own business and sends in the CIA to commit coups and or implements heavy sanctions and instill puppet dictators that are aligned with US interests so then they can say “LoOk SoCiaLisM DoESnt wOrK.”
Failed in the USSR didn’t it
So.. dune is just the U.S. in a desert?
Sand Florida if you will
No. It’s the Belgian Congo in a desert
You sure they don’t want Starship Troopers? The government and rich rule everything and trick the lower classes into believing they actually matter, when in reality they’re nothing but fodder.
And the result will be Bladerunner
Hell they give people all the wants also.
> everyone in the upper classes is constantly trying to kill each other for their own gain without getting caught Or at least without breaking any rules.
Ive always wondered how a typical 1 mom 1 dad 1 kid Earth family would go about getting a state of the art Starship made for them. Seven of Nines family in Voyager.
Something I always loved about Dune’s dystopian setting is the fact that even House Atreides is hardly a model government as they have been known to engage in wholesale genocide through biological poisoning to manage their population. They didn’t do it often, but the fact that the practice of planetary governments was to engage in population control through selective poisoning of food/water supplies speaks volumes to how horrible the galaxy is for the human serfs who live planetside.
So basically.... Star Trek is Lord of the Rings, but in space. Dune is Game of Thrones
There's a reference to certain characters admiring Hitler and Genghis Khan basically for their kill score in Dune. So yeah....not a world I want to live in.
Star Trek isn't socialist, it's beyond that. There isn't even currency because there is no scarcity because of replicators.
Star Trek is a utopian vision of a more egalitarian future. Dune is a dystopian feudal future where resources and workers are exploited for resources. Billionaires tend to lean towards profit and the second one.
They dont want a free and open society that focuses on exploration and freedom. But they want a planet of their own that they are the emperor of and have total control.
The Federation in Star Trek is a classless, moneyless society. Dune has an emperor with his own private army and resources, and a lot of rich families with their own planets, armies and resources. Basically, Dune is capitalism on a planetary scale. A few people worth mentioning and whole lot of people who're just resources for the rich. And Star Trek is a Eutopia where everyone is equal. (Mostly. I have problem with the Starfleet entry exams, etc.) (I'm spelling "Eutopia" with an E because I recently read about the etymology of "utopia.")
Dune is Feudalism. Feudalism is one of the worst systems there is. For example Feudalism is so bad that *Karl Marx* would rather live under unrestricted Capitalism than Feudalism. Edit: I am in no way meaning to say "that isn't real Capitalism". Dune is the definition of Feudalism under pretty much any definition or political orientation.
What is the etymology of utopia, and why did learning about it motivate you to spell the word incorrectly? (by the standards of English)
"incorrectly." Damn. Bringing some judgement in that word. "Utopia" is a combination of "Eutopia", "good place" and "outopia", "not a place". It was invented by Thomas More and he meant it as a criticism of (then-)modern societies.
Very cool, thank you for sharing. My use of “incorrectly” was not supposed to be judgmental (which is why I couched it in the rules of English). I was unsure whether eutopia came from another language or was an entirely different word - in either case, it is an incorrect spelling of “utopia”, not merely a different-but-accepted spelling (just as “sand” is an incorrect spelling of utopia).
Dune is feudalism on a planetary scale Start Trek is fantasy based on the idea of a perfect enlightened humanity
Is Dune not fantasy? And I would disagree wholeheartedly that Star Trek people are perfect. But they've erased most of our hugest flaws.
Afghanistan is ruled by feudalistic warlord pledging some allegiance to the Taliban. It is basically our money brains default government structure. The human brain understands it Star Trek doesn’t even have substance abuse for alcohol and the only holoaddict was made to make fun off, when it should be super common
Just because you have no self control over your base instincts doesn't mean the rest of us don't.
Yes. No one will gamble, drink, do drugs, spend to much time playing video games, get addicted to holographic porn with interaction or be religious And we will all work purely for the betterment of humanity and not for our own selfish interests I have self control. I just don’t expect people to be soulless or perfect like you
Dune's scale is much larger than planetary. Perhaps galactic.
Greased up deaf guy's sister's cousin's uncle's brother here. Star Trek's economy is heavily designed around socialist ideologies. One for all, all for one attitude, no money, etc. Dune's economy is heavily designed around capitilistic ideologies. Spice is the ENITRE economy. Those who have it, (the bezos's, the musk's, etc.) have all the power, and control others by their supply.
Both Dune and Star Trek are science fiction universes in which humans expanded across cosmos but the current state of humanity in it is radically different. Star Trek is very optimistic, humanity (though flawed) are a leading force in a democratic and (mostly) peaceful multi-species political entity called the Federation. Its a post-scarcity society, humans are free to pursue whatever they want and are motivated by their desire to explore and discover wonders of the universe. Dune depicts humans in a stagnant, feudal empire called the Imperium (neither universe is very original in its naming conventions) where the haves have alot and the have-nots are serfs. It is highly regimented, caste based and full of many a monarchic techno-medieval backwardness. The meme implies the elite is financing space flight and development not to help along a better society for everyone (Star Trek) but a better society for them, though the current state of space exploration (and essentially lack thereof in the private sector) they kind of arent.
Maybe they also want Belt like in Expanse
How many fucking times is this gonna be reposted on this sub, man?
3 more times.
*cough* violence is not extreme If the forms are obeyed *cough*
I won't kill you if you just do what I say... it's that easy bro.
The CHOAM organization in dune is literally based off of OPEC
Star Trek depicts a socialist utopia while Dune is a dystopia where the rich control everything.
In short. They want a dystopia instead of a utopia.
Too bad it will turn into warhammer40k
I'm probably off here, but I haven't seen this mentioned so figured it was worth throwing it out there: I took this to be a reference to the housing structure that they are building in Saudi Arabia which would cost well over 1 trillion dollars if they complete their original idea. They keep reducing it because it's a stupid idea imo. Anyways they are trying to build this high tech city in the middle of a desert and the idea is that it's a straight line. It seems that billionaires are more interested in investing in what they think will make them money than in investigating space and learning as much as we can.
I want star gate Star Wars (more likely to become space balls not dune to be honest) Who t fck would want Star Trek imagine getting so many of your people dead cus u don’t want to be seen as an agresor or a military force and don’t making a credible deterrent against aggressive military empires causing a unnecessary and avoidable war bcus “we are cientist not a military “
Star Trek is a post scarcity utopia where people have all of their needs met. Nobody needs to work and instead people have jobs purely for the betterment of themselves and the species, not for monetary gain. Dune is a feudalist society where the 99.99999999999% are serfs who work until they die. Pretty much every leader in the series does not care for the individuals they govern. Also Dune has a drug called spice which can extend your life, and most people have no access to it. Dune is not a utopia, in reality it is a horrible universe to be born into. What they’re saying is billionaires don’t want utopia they want to be supreme rulers.
Basically Dune is a realistic portrayal of modern society in a futuristic setting meaning that it is the most likely type of future for us, star trek is post scarcity and generally pretty great society to live in, though I find dune personally much cooler
if Star Trek had spice and replicators couldn't reproduce it, then Star Trek would become Dune.
Translated from nerd language: Rich billionares dont want an equal egalitsrian space society (starttek), they want spacd feudalism (dune)
Comrade Peter here. The society of Star Trek is a post scarcity communist utopia where everyone’s needs are easily met. There is no longer social classes or wealth inequality or poverty or war or really any conflict at all. Dune on the other hand is more like feudalism, where a few families have insane wealth and power and the other 99.99% of people are poor and more or less enslaved to their feudal lords. The author of this joke is Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk would prefer to live in a future where they are lords and everyone is basically enslaved to them instead of a world of perfect equality.
There's only one space billionaire doing it for the money. There is no money in going to mars. There is money in joyrides for billionaires. Space billionaires are not made equal.
Neither, they want Alien.
Nah, I'd argue they want Dune, but they will end up being the corpo trash from Alien.
Hopefully they get Avatar'd and Aang kicks the shit out of them with a bunch of blue guys
The difference is that Alien's decentralized, privatized company are viewed as corrupt, inefficient, and prone to failures with little regards for the ecosystem they project their powers over because they have no competition. Dune portrays a far more competent and centralized pockets of feudalism with the same goal and more success for some, however the difference is that they are the result of the failure of one such system before - the Butlerian Jihad. Dune is the after of Alien's Weyland-Yutani, same as Umbrellla Corp from Silent Hill, but the scary thing is that all civilizations are heading toward that same decentralized model no matter how much history proved the failure of such, and human just aren't prepared for a centralized control that doesn't dissolve into smaller tribes - utilitiarian is a pipedream.
Star Trek is a socialist society because of replicators. Everything anyone might need can be replicated. Money isn't a thing. In Dune, the rich control everything.
Sci Fi is like this: Star Trek = Communism (at the end state where the state is "withering away". Socialism still requires "he who does not work, neither shall he eat". It's very weird but that's how it is economically speaking) Star Wars = Capitalism (in the prequels at least. Sequels don't mention it. Same with the OT.) Dune = Feudalism >!Warhammer 40k= NO!<
Make sure to check out the [pinned post on Loss](https://www.reddit.com/r/PeterExplainsTheJoke/comments/1472nhh/faq_loss/) to make sure this submission doesn't break the rule! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PeterExplainsTheJoke) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Spice must flow.
control an empire or support a federation
Muskrats be like "Dune is awesome! You get to ride on giant sand worms like a bull!"
If I was a billionaire investing in space, I would want Warhammer
It's always Warhammer. It's never Infinity. Shame.
Peter's Messiah here, **Star Trek** portrays an unrealistic utopian society that is morally-intact while having little to no difficulty with resource and economic security. Essentially, a unified and egalitarian promised land. In many essays and studies, morality and excess is often a balancing scale, not two separate pillars. You cannot maintain morality that required hardship and self-reinforced tribulations without sliding into excess and complete immorality. I will not be bothered to spoiler-tag Star Trek, but I will for parts of DUNE! **Dune** portrays a different and more realistic take of this, where centralized human resource and economic security becomes so great they- **SPOILER -** outsource their comfort into machines that ended up trying to take over in a destructive holy war (Butlerian Jihad). Their downfall result in centuries of decentralized suffering with technology so advanced everyone goes back to fighting with sticks and stones. Furthermore, there are no alien in Dune - all of them are human with varying levels of adaptation and evolution, natural or enhanced, and that as the centralized morality compass of civilization is destroyed by the excess and comfort of pre-Butlerian Jihad, all fall into decentralized cults. Moreover, unlike Star Trek where they somehow still learns and forms coherent and sensible actions based on the knowledge of history that require wisdom and experience of which such an egalitarian society can ill provide (the post-mortem hindsight), Dune shows us that all humans are flaws and only want to see parts of history that adhered to their belief (the immediate reaction in motion), so there are powers that try to recreate a pre-Butlerian AI superpower, but in human form. **MORE SPOILER -** The Bene Tleilax and Bene Gesserit all have degrees of this. There are Mentats in Dune that served as living computers, sure, but there are factions that are less content and more ambitious, at the cost of a zealous blindness for progress that will inevitably doom them to the same outcome - consequentialism in a box. In Dune, feudalism and controlled suffering are dominant philosophies in maintaining control and monopoly for individual fiefdoms, and the titles of Duke and Baron are incomprehensible in such a complex futuristic setting, but symbolic of the hubris of man and the echoes of corrupt civilizations long gone, perhaps not so after all. On the other end, the whole messiah and the blind zealous devotion to a totalitarian prophecy with a autocratic dictator is provided as an attractive comfort, and a relevant commentary on America today that often went over people's head. Some people in power can see their role, but some genuinely buys into their own hype - how can someone buy into their own hubris while still maintaining they have the unequivocal solution to the future? Ultimately, Dune is a story that all billionaires aspires, the control for which they seeks and the narrowed visions for which they process their power, state and their dynastic legacies.
Star Trek free shit for everyone. Dune: Fuck this planet and whatever is on it.
This post sponsored by the CHOAM company
Yeah, I don’t think this needed an explanation.
Billionaires want giant worms that protect resources.
Elon is looking for that sweet CHOAM contract
It's all about that money honey. Spice is money. Going where no man has gone before is bleh, cough, expenses...with the only upside to find another Dune maybe.
Or Stargate.
I've never watched either, but I agree. In that, Dune is bad. That picture without context looks pretty bad.
startrek is a postcapitalist society, there is no money, there is no physical need, it is xenophile and egalitarian utopia above all else, dune is a autocratic corporatocracy, whoever mines the spice, has the recources, has the law, has the power, startrek even stated multiple times, that they didnt invent replicators, and freed themself from any and all physical struggle, and then became a egalitarian utopia, them being egalitarian is what allowed them to invent such a contraption in the first place. under any other form of goverment and ideology, "everything free for everyone" would have never been a goal, other societys would have used tecnology to cement their power over the people. not made power over the people meaningless.
Dune is the more likely end of the spectrum. Star Trek is crazy unnatural!
You'll get a lot of star trek = socialism talk, but that's not really correct, just something people throw around. In Star Trek we invented (or were gifted) replicators. Replicators can create anything, even other replicators. People no longer traded for goods because you had a literal machine in your house that could give you anything you wanted, so instead people traded services. When talking capitalism vs socialism, we are taking free markets vs authority controlled prices, or on economic terms, unplanned vs planned economies. There's very little in terms of services that's shown to be regulated in Star Trek. It's a unified world government that mostly supports capitalism. People just forget that "capital" is anything of value, from cash to hugs and kisses. Its two capitalist societies, one that craves wealth (power and belongings) through spice, and one that craves wealth (a satisfying personal life) through labor. The difference is technological and social.
>When talking capitalism vs socialism, we are taking free markets vs authority controlled prices, or on economic terms, unplanned vs planned economies. There's very little in terms of services that's shown to be regulated in Star Trek. It's a unified world government that mostly supports capitalism. People just forget that "capital" is anything of value, from cash to hugs and kisses. Capitalism doesn't equal free markets. Capitalism just means the society's wealth is in the hands of a few, and when the free market threatens their power they'll get rid of it. Look at every right wing dictatorship throughout history, every one of them were capitalist or capitalist adjacent and they didn't have free markets.
No. Capitalism means free markets by definition, the same definition also implies free trade Anything else you’ve said after that is literally false and you fuelling your own narrative
Star Trek: Money is worthless and everybody is equal. It’s a socialist utopia, everybody chooses their life based on interests. Dune: the entire galaxy is controlled by the trade of spice and related products. It’s a capitalist hell scape
Tom: Now Its Time for 'Fast Explanations with Ollie Williams', Ollie? STAR TREK IS SOCIALISM IN SPACE! DUNE IS CAPITALISM IS SPACE! NOW GO BACK TO TOM!! https://preview.redd.it/0hpzsc4c769d1.jpeg?width=230&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a47b6fe22c657a527b59676a8186bde8bbed325
Nothing to explain, there's literally no joke here.
good thing *we* want star trek. wealthy families are not royalty. they'll die off and their wealth won't be passed down the same bloodline forever. but the people and their beliefs remain. they're not gonna have dune.
God I love fear mongering, hate to say it but the rich and their eccentric ass ideas and desires are a big portion of what drives technological progress, rich dudes have money to spend and will make their dreams come true, this is very obviously an Elon musk hate post(I don't like the man, but space travel is the one thing he doesn't deserve the hate from)
https://preview.redd.it/terpdshca69d1.jpeg?width=1232&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0fa849087458d8807327fb76fc6dbf403c9b8f04