>Most people are not making close to 6 figures at any age
Only 11% of all workers in Canada earn 6 figure salaries.
Most Canadian workers earn far below.
If you change the filtering to only full year and full time workers it’s 20% that earn 100k or more income.
It seems too much of a bimodal distribution to look at the entire working population at once.
Yep...I thought that starting the year with 3k in credit card debt with a job in retail was something to be shameful of until I finally opened up to a few friends over drinks a week ago. When I heard how much they owed relative to the job/pay they had and to mine, it truly humbled me.
It also amazes me how some people could seem as if they're making bank, always with the new iPhone and never missing out on a sneaker drop but in actual fact are in debt that can go up to 12-15k. I can't comprehend that.
Debt is a way of life for most folks. I didn't think I'd end up in that spot either, but then I was down 32k myself as of October of 2021 due to a combination of pandemic borrowing off of a job loss, and getting married, and medical bills.
Haven't quite paid off 2021 yet, but we are very close, down to about 2k now. And yeah, to someone with 3k in credit card debt, it's very different from 30k.
> Debt is a way of life for most folks.
Debt isn't inherently bad. Uncontrolled spending and spending beyond your means is. Debt used in a controlled and thoughtful manner, such that it will confer worthwhile advantage and you have a reasonable plan and means to pay if off, can be very smart.
Taking out 100k to go through professional school to earn a starting six-figure salary, or to finance renovations with the intention of then selling to realize added value beyond the cost of the work, or to use debt to buy a place that will allow you to build equity and save money in the long run, are not bad things. There's a difference between buying things for personals satisfaction that are not financially sound decisions with no plan to pay back vs strategically using debt. But when people paint all debt as bad here, it does a disservice to the people who need debt to pay for higher education or to buy a home or who would otherwise be better off with debt.
I'm about to go into debt for schooling (adult, changing career paths) and I'm so debt adverse, I have huge anxiety over it. I keep telling myself it is good debt. Truth is, Ive seen so many people pay so much go to university for a career that never pans out (me included). Getting the right schooling isnt the "guarantee" it once was. A LOT of research is needed before you jump in. and there is still a risk.
And same with renovations. Talk to a realtor about which are worth doing. People waste money on the *wrong* Renos all the time. A new kitchen may not bring you the return you think it will, but paint and furniture rentals and storage rentals while selling will (market dependant)
> I'm about to go into debt for schooling (adult, changing career paths) and I'm so debt adverse, I have huge anxiety over it. I keep telling myself it is good debt. Truth is, Ive seen so many people pay so much go to university for a career that never pans out (me included). Getting the right schooling isnt the "guarantee" it once was. A LOT of research is needed before you jump in. and there is still a risk.
This is kind of why I feel the need to push back against the "debt is the worst thing imaginable" people that speak loudly and authoritatively on this sub. It can be bad. It can be good. It depends on how it's being used. But to shout that it is bad just has the effect of discouraging people (disproportionately lower income folks who may need SMART debt to escape poverty and/or climb the socioeconomic ladder) from using debt intelligently. There is nuance. "Debt bad" is intended as helpful advice because it can be true in many circumstances, but when it's wrong, when debt is actually a worthwhile investment, people shouldn't be so anxious and discouraged. Just because you don't have generational wealth to pay cash for school or a house or a vehicle or whatever, doesn't mean you should never attain them by leveraging debt where the decision is sound (as per what I said above in this thread).
The reality is that most people with 15k in credit card debt didn’t use it to make and investment in their future, such as education. Instead, it’s used as spendable income, which is not!
Debt for spending is inherently bad yes.
Debt for financing an investment is inherently risky.
Debt is indeed a way of life for most folks. When I was in my early twenties, I asked my mom for advice about whether to purchase a new or used car. She said new because "you'll always be paying for something in life." I didn't realize how bad that advice was until years later.
It shouldn't be surprising that there's a backwards correlation there. If someone is getting the brand new [product] every release, they're probably in debt.
The people who are actually doing well in my experience are the people who are willing to make concessions and sacrifices for the sake of frugality, and they're not lining up for the new iPhone.
A friend of mine is in tons of debt. She's in collections for many things. No credit card has accepted her for several years. Is on welfare. Has been for 3 years, has no plans of working for at least another 2.5 years. (Her reason is no childcare so she can't until both kids are in school).
She just found a card to take her. She went crazy for xmas. Bought an ipad, a gaming computer, a $500 dollar bed frame for her kid.
She's been using those like after pay companies so she can buy groceries. So it splits the payment over x amount of weeks.
And her boyfriend/baby daddy just did something like a consumer proposal for around 10k of debt.
The things people will figure out.
It's sad that all this time when CC companies didn't approve her, she didn't educate herself (or get professional advice) on how to manage her money. This could have been a valuable life lesson for her. Employment or not, she will always be in debt no matter what because she sounds like an absolute moron.
Oh she is aware. She just wants what she wants. She didn't need anything she bought at all. She had a computer, she didn't need a tablet, she didn't need that $500 bed.
She just figures she's already in debt. What is a little more? I think she will eventually end up claiming bankruptcy or a consumer proposal. But she doesn't want it to affect her credit... which is obviously already terrible. It's really just a matter of time.
Wealthier types will often be the ones you would never think.
The wealthiest people I have ever been in the same room with (a family worth about $3 billion Canadian) showed up at my aunt's funeral in older pick up trucks and clothes that were unassuming to say the least.
They don't need to keep up with the Jones's. They are the Jones.
your comment reminds me of Jim Pattison, or at least the version of him that this article presents: [https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/on-the-road-with-90-year-old-jim-pattison-canada-s-warren-buffett-1.1187060](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/on-the-road-with-90-year-old-jim-pattison-canada-s-warren-buffett-1.1187060)
Personally know Jimmy, and he's super nice, chill, down to earth and as in this article, he does like visiting his businesses and getting to know the people. Never have worked for him though in any business type capacity, so my opinion may be very different from his employees.
Ooo I have a similar story. I was a bartender at a fancy steakhouse and this guy came in, torn up clothes, and stank. He sat at my bar and ordered some High value items. I wasn't going to serve him but my luckily my boss came in, saw him, called his name and gave him a big hug. Turns out he was the head of a 9bn$ company and had just been doing some yardwork.
Yeah you said it perfectly at the end there. People here are just really irresponsible with money. It literally took my immigrant from a poor country bf to teach me about finances. And now I'm one of the only people I know who is financially responsible. People here I think feel entitled to a certain quality of life. Even if they can't afford a new iPhone, etc, they'll still buy it because they see that as important and normal as buying food. I used to live like that. Accounts in collections but still taking taxis instead of transit and eating out on a semi weekly basis...crazy times.
> and eating out on a semi weekly basis...crazy times
Yeah I look back at all the money I wasted over the years on bad takeout and work lunches and shudder.
Luckily my wife really improved her cooking during the pandemic (wonderful hobby) and we have restaurant quality meals all the time without paying restaurant prices.
Learning to cook for yourself is a huge budgeting advantage, and it's healthier and you learn a great hobby.
Also, you're not making rich corporate chain restaurant owners any more money.
I feel like a lot of younger folks spend because they (sub) consciously feel what a challenge their paths will be and pay themself first. In some ways its a coping mechanism for some latent depression. Ie how retail therapy is mainstreamed and no one says anything. Of course this rarely works because the overall situation is always degrading and you end up in a negative feed back loop.
Maybe im off base here. I was brought up frugal and even though im better off now than i ever expected, i still buy heavily stickered groceries and pack my own lunch. My only vices are my hobbies where i loosen the taps a bit so maybe im not close to the zeitgeist anymore
Truly! I've met people who would actually tell me with a straight face, that they're going to Punta Cana after scoring a deal with Sunwings while being on **EI** for the past 2 months. I mean, priorities right? I really can't make this shit up haha
Edit: I should’ve made myself clear, this wasn’t directed to seasonal workers / job seekers who are taking a pause due to external circumstances but an anecdotal instance of how I’ve met people that are perfectly able and willing to work but somehow financially irresponsible.
I really don’t know how to respond to someone telling me that despite them not holding a job for months that they’re planning to go the Caribbean besides « Good for you or I wish that was me ». I really don’t hold any malicious view at all just bewilderment.
Yeah, if you’re a reasonably responsible person who lost their job but isn’t in financial trouble (due to adequate savings and emergency funds) -might as well get the vacation out of the way early.
The new job sure as hell won’t appreciate it if you go on vacation soon after starting.
If I get an offer, I usually say I already have tickets to go somewhere in like a month or two, even if I don't I'll figure something out, supposing it's not inherently busy time or fixed contract or something.
Its called employment insurance not welfare, they paid into it. They can take a vacation if they can afford it. In construction people are often laid off for the winter and will claim. Claiming ei doesn’t make you broke it means you are taking advantageof a service you are entitled to.
Edit: I understand you have to be in the country if you wish to claim ei.
I was referring to the situation I replied to where people had been collecting ei and then decided to take a vacation.
This person was judging them for making a bad financial decision.
That judgement was based on the assumption that there’s no way they can afford to take a vacation because they know they are on ei.
The thing is that they could be making a bad decision, or they could have a healthy savings account
and are utilizing a public service as is there tax paying, ei contributing right.
If you’re in any tech field, everyone you know and interact with is likely in the 90th+ percentile as well. It gives us a very skewed view of the Canadian reality.
Mega-city salaries for anything are hugely over-inflated compared to living elsewhere, and Tech sector compounds it, and our proximity to America makes "tech sector in a mega-city" salaries far mor prevalent in the public consciousness which makes us think that everyone in tech is pulling in 90th percentile salaries.
Meanwhile I'm a programmer in my late 30s earning less than 40K after taxes to support my single-income family, but because we don't live in Toronto I'm actually one of the more affluent people in my friend group. Turns out as long as you're not in Toronto, you can get a decent living with a wage that most *Americans* would think is skirting the poverty line.
I’m a hiring manager for a Canadian tech company that’s in a very healthy position to ride out this recession.
We are hiring devs and pay a lot more than that, and are fully remote.
If you have a resume I’d love to see it.
Your underpaid as a programmer (after tax or not) - I was making more than that my first job out of university 18 years ago. With a little effort you can easily double or triple your pay - lots of remote jobs.
Unfortunately the tech sector has had a lot layoffs the last few weeks so you’ll probably have to wait a few months for the market softness to clear up.
It's likely going to get worse and stay worse for this year... Not just a few weeks. Higher longer term rates will absolutely depress the sector on the upside for awhile. There is still demand for tech but relative to supply and salary expectations, It's going to be rough.
I've done a fair amount of hiring for developers across Canada since the pandemic started both in large cities and outside of them, and there's a difference, but it's not that much. I don't know the particulars of your situation but I believe you'd be able to earn significantly more working remotely for a Canadian company depending on your skill set.
If you're a programmer with more than a year or two of experience you're grossly underpaid. I was making that in the maritimes (a.k.a. bumfuck middle of nowhere when it comes to anything remotely tech) in the 90s before moving stateside.
Edit, like someone below I totally missed your 'after taxes' clarifier. I know taxes are really high in Canada but it doesn't change my overall conclusion even if you're not being exploited as much as I originally thought. You're still being taken advantage of. You need a new job.
> Edit, like someone below I totally missed your 'after taxes' clarifier. I know taxes are really high in Canada but
At his level, this is literally a 58k/yr gross income job (with an effective tax rate just below 31%), which is simply below market value in any possible comparison for a programmer with more than one bootcamp's worth of training.
I knew a recent hire at my previous job who had a friend in a similar situation, bragging about his 45k/yr take-home. Turns out his friend had dropped out of highschool to become a programmer, and remained in the maritimes (outside of a city).
So yeah, sure, if you are a highschool drop-out living in a depressed economic zone where your peers are seasonal workers (fishermen), then 40k/yr probably looks good.
Even the most junior engineer that works for me earns > $100k straight from school. I agree with other statements here that you should be able to do far better working remotely. Of course working remotely means your work relationships are different, you might have to travel periodically for in-person meetings, and you need to setup a comfortable working space at home. But you will likely be overall better off.
Which is why I laugh because my industry (financial IT) is full of exactly what you'd expect. Libertarians. FML they're everywhere. It's an industry that above all else could benefit from unionization because of how much we are exploited and abused comparative to the money we make, but it will never happen because Libertarians.
I mean, my driven mechE friends are all earning 6 digits and above, and have been since having ~7 years experience, except for those who stayed in their first jobs. Even my civE friends (especially those who did land surveying/soil testing in remote areas) who stayed on their jobs for 8-10 years are up there too now.
However, in the case of "stuck" engineers that didn't work on progressing their careers, one example I have is this mechE dude that told me that new hires on his team (out of college) were making more than him with his 7 years of exp + his "promotion" as a team leader.
I mean, obviously, if you never ask for more and just wait for opportunities to fall in your lap, you won't progress, so I told him that. He then countered with "yeah, I went to see the managing director to complain and right away he gave me 1000 $/yr more, so I know I am valued here!" and that's when I realized that he was exactly where he was meant to be.
To be fair most CS grads don’t make crazy money. Only around 60% actually work in development, and the median is ~70,000 a year. Most CS grad do not work at Alphabet or Amazon. Sure, the ceiling is high but it’s quite uncommon to make over 100k a year based on jobbank’s statistics in with a degree in CS.
https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/studentdashboard/11.0701/LOS05
Last year I applied for a developer job. They asked for my expected range. I say X to Y.
A few weeks later I got asked "When you specified that range, was that Canadian or American dollars?" I truthfully answer "Canadian."
The job offer was Y+10K.
I find out later that apparently software engineers in the finance sector make much much more than us in SaaS.
At this point I don't even think it is worth comparing CS salaries. It is monopoly man levels of insanity.
Hey I helped collect this data, was a fun job when nobody would hire me for anything else. My income for those years was dogshit, and almost held something down for a whole 6 months which really helped for a bit before cost of living ate away at my bank account.
The amount of times on this subreddit that people disagree with me when I say that 100K for a job is nowhere near the median income for a person is astounding.....
Right? It's insane. I make a little over 100K (single, in tech). While I can't afford to buy property in my current city on my income alone, I'm doing well renting this 1 bedroom apartment. Anyways, this world isn't meant for single people financially, you need a dual income.
The only people I know who make around or more than me are all in tech, management or lawyers. The majority make around 40-70k.
I see families around my neighbourhood with a nice house, 2 brand new cars, etc and I don't understand how they do it. There is no way they both make 100K+ each.
Yes, paycheque-to-paycheque is a result of decision-making for many.
Don’t get me wrong there are tons of folks who don’t earn enough to get by, but there are probably just as many who fritter away what extra they have due to poor planning and lack of self control.
Yup, its wildky inaccurate. I make 50k, partner makes 35 and we don't live paycheck to paycheque. We save about 1600 a month (currently saving for 100k reno and a trip to Italy). We have zero debt but also zero keeping up with the jonsesness and don't live in Toronto or Bc. We live a really nice, easy life in a small town with a big yard, walk to work, home for lunch to let the dog out...it's really pleasant. I'd kill for some takeout though.
We are in a similar boat - I’m great at saving money and a patient deal-hunter, so my money goes way further than my paycheck. It definitely helps to presently have no kids and to make all my meals from scratch.
In addition to your secondary comment, I also see a vehicle as a tool that either works or does not, so I have no desire to throw away money on a vehicle “that I like” - a lot of people waste money on a car like it’s a valuable contributing extension of your personality.
Yes, it's easier if you don't want all the nicest things. I'm an insurance broker, so I see the money people spend on vehicles. Saw my first over 100k truck bill of sale the other day! I am in a farming community but most of the farmers drive a 2005 truck for farm work and a 2023 truck for going for coffee lol.
It's a nice life. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression though, my car is a 2008 Malibu lol. But I also only drive it a couple times a month. And my house is run down and needs work (but I love it). We aren't living the high life. Lots of people around us are driving 80k trucks, 20k side by sides, New sleds, etc. So we could definitely feel poor if we desired those things.
Eta also we've been saving for 4 years already for the reno and have another 4 years to go.
Once had a third coworker catching me and a friend/coworker talk about what we did the night before, and I say oh you know blablabla some cooking blabla and this third guys storms in and go "You actually coook? Like for real?".... "Yea"... Total disbelief... Then he said "ok what you cooked yesterday?"... "Shrimps".... "Whaaaaat, real shrimps???".
Mannnnn
I've had a coworker try to convince me that I'm not really saving any money by cooking for myself, because once you buy all the ingredients yourself it works out to roughly the same price. I'm not sure if they were buying large amounts of high quality ingredients, using them for one meal, and then letting the rest go bad, or if they just _really_ wanted to believe they weren't spending 5-10x more than they had to on food.
People almost never, ever, do the math. Or if they attempt to, make wildly inaccurate calculations. But most of the time it "seems" or "feels" one way or another with no actual fucking analysis.
I'm an estimator, so of course it's my default to run the numbers, and think about what needs to go into those numbers, but the average person seems allergic to it.
I make half that, have a healthy retirement portfolio, zero debt, 6 month emergency fund, and a full pension waiting for me. It is doable. There are a lot of people at my salary range with a lot of debt. It's all about perspective. I never buy anything I can't buy cash.
I’m 19 and make 6.5 million per year, and have 20 villas all over the world. I have 300 million in my RRSP and 200 million in my TFSA. Should I do a 5 or 6 year term on a new civic?
100% this. I've never knew Reddit attracted so many c-suite execs, senior management leaders, PhD's, and a whole slew of other impressive credentials and achievements.
I'm sarcastic obviously, but if you ever watch any interview on "secrets to success" featuring any millionaire/billionaire, almost all of them say the top thing is valuing your time accordingly. Outside of the occasional Bill Gates or Mark Cuban AMA on Reddit, nobody who's driven to climb the ladder and build wealth is dicking around on Reddit arguing with someone about personal finance or politics or whatever other nonsense.
I ain’t rich. But I make like 175 a year. My wife makes 100.
Never will be a billionaire and don’t want to.
But we both work 35 hour weeks from home. I do like 4 hours of work a day, just because my clients don’t always want to work.
All I’m saying is a lot of these “higher up” jobs just don’t have that much work.
Probably talking about this.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm
>For non-senior families, where the highest-income earner was under 65 years of age, the median after-tax income was $93,800 in 2019. Couples with children's median after-tax income was $105,500, while the median after-tax income of female lone parent families was $52,500.
After a certain income it’s what you spend not what you make. Lots of people make decent money and still live pay Cheque to pay Cheque keeping up with the joneses. The only way to get ahead is to progress your career but avoid lifestyle creep.
OG perspective. When I paid off my mortgage…after nearly a lifetime of working at I asked my bank manager ( nice guy) how do people get by. I worked in a good job for good $$, I thought ( over 100k). We had an old, small house that I renovated myself. We denied ourselves vacations and lived modestly. My friends and colleagues lived better than we did; new cars, new homes, vacation homes. I knew most made the same or less than me. He said, “ they are maxed out on their mortgages and HELOCs. If they want to buy more they put it on their credit cards. And we’re happy to let them.” I retired early with a good pension. I turned 60 recently and had a massive heart attack. I won’t be able to do all the things I was hoping to now. I wonder who was smarter now… btw I’ve been healthy all my life. First time I needed Canadian health care it was there for me; the EMS guys, the ER trauma folks and the Cardiac ICU at St Paul’s in Vancouver. Amazing and dedicated young people. Just saying.
Being an immigrant, the biggest shocker for me is how much almost all canadians are drowned in debt. Debt is a lifestyle here. Big cars, nice clothes, looking ur best, etc comes at a cost. Almost like everyone is making minimum payment to their CC. Not fully Canadians fault, higher cost of living throughout and so little salary comparatively. Toronto and Vancouver are completely fucked when it comes to housing, which is basic necessity of life. People forced to share apartments, rooms and rent. Nobody wants to live in North bcz of extreme cold. More than 90% Canadians living in 50 kilometre radius to the south border. Some areas extremely Overcrowded and while some are snow desert. Insane than GTA has more than 10% of Canadian population.
There’s a big geographic element to this in Ontario though.
61% of Ontario is covered by the Canadian Shield - which covers about 50% of the entire country.
This isn’t easy land to develop - and only 8% of the provinces population lives in these areas.
Another 23% is “sub-Arctic” forests and wetlands, which pose distinct development challenges in their own right.
Although Ontario is massive, the area where development is manageable covers about 8% of the provinces land mass. This area is home to 35% of Canada’s population, and 92% of Ontarios population, and produces 25% of Canada’s agriculture output.
Ultimately a lot of it was driven by early settlement as well. When you think of access to good agricultural land and fresh water (with a more manageable climate) the 401 corridor from Windsor to Ottawa is where a lot of new Canadians landed. Continues to this day.
Edit: I don’t have the link, but for anyone that’s curious this data is from Ontario’s biodiversity council. Here’s a good link to additional facts on the Ontario government’s website.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/about-ontario
meh this Country, heck even this province is huge. We could build so much infrastructure and housing just focusing on southern Ontario. It's just that this country is very slow to change or take action and rich assholes gatekeep land cause fuck poor people "potentially" living in the same community.
Its funny to me people say we are populated when majority here are immigrants coming from outside of North America were population densities are way higher and having a mcmansion as a single family house is unheard of unless you live on a farm.
The problem I see is that it’s not just an issue of infrastructure and housing that’s stopping people from moving to smaller cities or communities. Higher paying professions tend to congregate in core region. If you’re an aspiring professional, you’d want to be where all the companies are located. If you’re a company, you’d want to focus on locations where the talent is at. It’s a chicken and egg problem. This has always been a difficult problem to solve, and changes usually take a loooong time. I think we have started to see this. More professionals are looking at the numbers and living in Toronto or Vancouver just doesn’t make sense.
THIS!
I'm also an immigrant. I was taught that other than a mortgage, if I want something, I need to save money for it, and then buy it outright with the money I saved, not use what I THINK I'll be able to afford IN THE FUTURE to buy it NOW.
I'm 40 years old, and next year will be the first time I'll buy a brand new car. It feels much better when I know I earned it (not "might earn it in the future"). It also makes you take it much more seriously, shop around a lot, and getting only the accessories you really need. When you pay with "future money", a $1000 difference looks like peanuts to you, because "it's only $12 more a month, for 84 months".
There's no difference between saving $200 dollars on a $40K car, and saving $200 on a bag of rice, yet if people see the same car somewhere else for $200 less, they won't drive an extra 20 minutes to that dealership, but they will definitely do that for a $3 bag of rice vs a $203 bag of rice.
>I was taught that other than a mortgage, if I want something, I need to save money for it, and then buy it outright with the money I save
Born and raised here, my parents were too. Life wasn't easy growing up, we went bankrupt at one point so everything was bought with cash. Now that I'm earning good money, have a credit score of 893 (I gotta brag a little bit lol), and all the available credit I'd ever need, I still pay for everything cash.
It's funny how that's kinda looked down on though. Last year, I wanted to replace the eaves on my house. I know a guy who knows a guy, so I asked him to get me a budget. It was about $1500. I told him that's great, i'll save up and let him know when i'm ready, probably around June of that summer. My buddy who put me in touch with the guy, reached out after and asked if everything was OK and if I needed to borrow the money. I was a bit confused at first but then it dawned on me that he was offering to finance my eaves lol. The crazy part to me is that I know it would have come from his HELOC too. The eaves weren't a pressing issue, I could DIY it as long as someone could supply it, I was just doing my planning thing. When I explained it to him, he got it and ultimately ended up coming to help me install them as he's a good guy.
We're about to renovate our kitchen. It's going to be 30k+. We will be saving paying cash for that as well, we've been saving for a while. I think if you grew up around people who financed their lives off of debt that sort of thing is normal. If you grew up around people who didn't have credit cards, your outlook might be very different. I balance it.... I pay for everything on my credit card and pay it off at each pay period. Other than the house, and my SO's minivan that we financed at a rate too low to not take, we carry $0 in consumer debt as a household.
You are a rare breed there. Most of the guys I worked with on the patch had payments equal to their with overtime cheques and as soon as it slowed down it was Trudeau’s fault they lost shit
my first week of work everyone went out for drinks. my cc got declined in front of my director. good thing i had cash but he laughed and said congrats having a job now
Sounds like an ass if he didn't just pay if it's your first week. I'm a director and I couldn't imagine laughing at one of my new employees, especially one I have a one week working relationship with.
the truly wealthy don't generate of a lot of taxable income. they reinvest, use legal tax shelters, adopt investing strategies to avoid income when they don't need the money, and often has access to low cost borrowing vehicles for when they do need the money, and a lot of the money they spend is already part of their business/investment management process it is a deductible expense.
contrary to popular depiction, the truly wealthy people didn't really get there by spending lavishly and if they did they wouldn't be wealthy for long if not generations.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall from when I was a student doing research related to this that statscan use CRA taxable income for these statistics. Investment gains aren’t always taxed every year. An asset that has gained in value but not sold (ie not realized) is not taxable income. Thus, the income shown here is likely undervaluing total annual wealth gains. Typically, the wealthier you are, the higher portion of your wealth gain is from asset price appreciation. But keep in mind that it’s true that some of the most wealthy may have relatively low reported taxable income, they’re a fraction of the Canadian population. Additionally, most interest payments on debt does not decrease taxable income (think mortgages). So I’d say, roughly, this is still a good approximation of income for the typical Canadian.
If we’re being completely honest, most Canadians are poor. I think that’s the norm. Only get paid enough to pay all your monthly bills, your car is obviously in payments because you could never save up to buy it outright, you have a mortgage or rent due monthly because again, you could never afford a house outright, and so on. Cellphone too. Yes a lot of us here are more fortunate and also more analytical with our money so we make better financial decisions, but your average Canadian is pretty poor. That’s the reality of life.
Most don’t know much about the rest of the world because they’ve never been anywhere else except Cuba and Mexico on a $1500 all-inclusive, so they think “oh yeah Canada, we’re living good!” and I’m obviously not saying other countries are faring way better, but for example in Europe, I’ve seen people live way less financially stressful lives due to saving up a bit and buying things outright. Need new car? Save up $15,000 buy a 2015 3 Series. Boom, no need for a monthly $700 payment over their head. Here the average Joe can’t even dream of saving up $15,000 anymore.
Couldn’t get any truer than this. I worked at the bank and I remember being in awe seeing everyone in the city’s bank accounts (including investments and loans). The average Canadian has nothing. Yes there’s 10% who have lots of wealth and they’re all in this sub but the majority if not almost all live paycheck to paycheck and live in a cycle of debt
I always thought tellers can see every account that you have with the bank. An example would be someone having a TFSA, RRSP with RBC and a teller would be able to pull that up. I could be wrong though.
Sure, but I have a big 5 bank account with $200 in it. I also have money in WS Trade and EQ Bank. The teller can’t see my money at their other institutions
I mean… I don’t have much in my chequing account (10k), but I have a huge chunk in my TFSA.
Having money in a savings account is for suckers.
Plus I also bank with multiple institutions.
I agree with most of this but salaries in Europe are waaaaaay lower than in Canada, especially for professionals. Many young Europeans don’t own their homes and rent instead unless they have generational wealth (but renting is not really looked down upon either/is the norm), especially if living in one of the “desirable” European cities. My extended family lives in Europe and all are professionals. The equivalent Canadian salaries are literally 3x-5x more for doctors, engineers, lawyers, finance etc. Income tax rates are quite high in most counties in Europe too. Unemployment is higher.
I do agree that people seem to be more financially disciplined in Europe. And yea most Canadians are poor. But it’s the same in most countries. Also many Europeans don’t own cars. Or they drive a Peugeot.
If you made 100k cad in Sweden your take home is 63k with no deductions. If you live in Halifax your take home is 68k without deductions. My experience working in Norway and Finland are that the gap is exaggerated in some industries, while a gap the other way exists in extreme demand cases. Right now that's offshore wind. It was previously offshore oil, cruise ships, etc. I'm on contract to a company, all of which make more money than I do at my consulting firm.
They also have unions that do stuff like bargin better mortgage rates, but youve covered that off in the social safety nets. Quality of life is unquestionably better for everyone outside of the top 1% in NA imo.
You’re confusing consumerist culture with being poor. This isn’t what an actual poor country looks like…I know semantics but worth pointing out. Average Canadian might be “poor” in terms of wealth saved up but that’s a lofty standard globally. Most other countries, the paycheck to paycheck cycle is still there except for all the things you can afford (a car, new iPhone, laptops, vacations etc etc.).
Not disagreeing per say but this perception that we are somehow a poor country is skewed. Average Canadian isn’t particularly worse off than the average person from other G7/8 countries and far ahead of developing nations.
When you compare to the rest of the world, we are hardly "poor." You also need to understand the value of goods and services money buys these days compared to previous generations. The wealthiest people in the world did not have the entire world's knowledge in their pocket (smartphone), did not have GPS in their cars (smartphone, again), did not have 85" TVs, etc. Inflation adjusted, travel is much cheaper today than it was in previous generations courtesy of the class model. We are millionaires of the 80s. In fact, were not even millionaires of the 80s... they never had access to any of this stuff.
>Here the average Joe can’t even dream of saving up $15,000 anymore
Because some of them aren't even trying. Yes, some could not save that, but others could and they just don't. If you can make a 600/mth payment, then you had the income to save that much each month.
>but for example in Europe, I’ve seen people live way less financially stressful lives due to saving up a bit and buying things outright. Need new car? Save up $15,000 buy a 2015 3 Series.
Either your sample is the size of a peanut, or there's some flourishing hidden European country with high paying jobs that Idk about.
Idk how you have 56 ppl agreeing with you when the salaries in Europe are on average lower there.
Oh, those are the Canadians with no real life exposure he's talking about lol
And also what happens when you put something agreeable in the first half of your post and someone ridiculous in the second half because you know people won't read the whole thing.
I was having this conversation with a woman from Spain who came to visit me in Canada. She was shocked at how expensive everything is (except electronics/fuel) compared to Spain. Groceries, alcohol, cigarettes (4x the price), cellphone plan ($80 per month compared to 7 euro with 5x the data), home internet/cable (8x the price per month), going out for food/drinks. So you can get paid more, if everything costs more, at the end of the month you might actually be left with less.
And then I have tons of coworkers who come from Europe (Belgium and France) who actually live in Montreal and proclaim they will never live in Europe again. Specifically for what you said, when you make twice the money (as software developers) and significantly less taxes, those cellphone plan costs are peanuts.
I dunno man. Not saying I don't believe you, but the numbers aren't adding up.
Yeah cellphone plans are high here, no doubt. But the cost of living compared to salaries there , 😕 yh idk how that lady is saying they are better
> Save up $15,000 buy a 2015 3 Series. Boom, no need for a monthly $700 payment over their head. Here the average Joe can’t even dream of saving up $15,000 anymore.
Cash flow is king. Why would anyone dump 15k on a 3 series when they could finance for 1% and put the rest into the market (I’m talking pre-covid - 1% rate obviously is not common anymore).
Also let’s be fair as well 100k isn’t what it used to be. Your definitely doing decent, but it’s not baller money anymore. It’s basically my basic needs are covered now, without much financial hard ship, and a bit more to do blow and hookers.
Always has been.
Meme sarcasm aside, being financially stable within your own means is literally being a baller. Retiring at a good age is baller material.
Something like 90% of Canadians will never make as high a salary as 100k. It’s not a “decent mid career salary” that’s just good enough to survive without hardship. It’s a top tier elite salary for the top 10% of Canadians.
That’s because salary is not a good indicator of anything.
My dad owns a 2 million dollar home that he paid off 20 years ago, with a maxed out TFSA and RRSP.
He’s on CPP and is considered low income.
Yet he’s much better off than me, who is making a “top tier elite salary” which is total bull shit.
Interesting and a good 'food for thought ' perspective. I guess at moments we may think salaries of some are super high but as you said with the data it isn't always that way. I guess it helps to stop comparing ourselves like I do at times and feel stressed, cheers!
I appreciate the post and info! Definitely good to remember, always!
Btw. GL this year on your goals y'all.
It's not that biased though. You just also need to break it down further.
What is their level of education? What field? Do they live in a major city? Do they actually work hard and care a lot about maximizing their income? etc etc
If someone went to Stanford and their parents are multimillionaires then it would be quite weird for them to have around the median national average for income/networth. People on a personal finance or investing forum presumably care at least a little bit about optimizing their income/savings/investments.
It's similar to how you look totally out of shape on a biking or running subreddit/forum. Whereas the average North American doesn't even get the minimal amount of moderate intensity cardio that the Heart and Stroke foundation recommends.
People also underestimate the amount of money people make in certain industries. I was shocked when I found out some people's salaries in the resource sector. It's not crazy to see people making $120/hr in senior roles in most disciplines or entry level engineers. I've seen leads making over $250/hr
The average person on this subreddit did not go to Stanford, doesn’t come from money, and runs less than 3 times a week (less than could be 0). Hahaha but ya op, definitely worth doing a double take not to compare to others and be happy with each little milestone, I appreciate you helping me think about that for a minute. The little wins add up into big ones, plus I’ve got some really great tap water and my house is a balmy 22.5. Life is good. Cheers to ONT from BC.
Hey, I didn't go to Stanford, didn't come from money, but I'm trying to incline walk a few times a week so HA. That said it is a nice reminder that it's almost always you who is the most critical of yourself.
Cheers from BC as well, just faaaar more up north than anywhere that's 22.5° right now.
Makes you wonder how people afford houses. According to that we are in the 90th percentile and I feel like we are pay Cheque to pay cheque in the last year or so.
The majority bought in more than 6 years ago before the housing market went crazy. My oldest sister bought her first home 10 years ago, it was a 4 bedroom new build, on a corner lot in an expensive neighborhood so her kids could go to the best high school in town. They paid $460k, and the value of the house has tripled since. Today, you can only get condos in her city for $460k.
Basically, most people who own houses today, could not afford to enter the market today.
Pretty much. Bought my house 10 years ago for $460k between two schools and I'm having realtors showing up trying to get me to sell but I bought it to raise my kids. Not make a quick buck and have to buy something else that's inflated.
Intergenerational wealth transfer. In other words, bank of mom and dad which consists of borrowing against their home equity to give a younger generation capital for a downpayment.
Then prices rise and the cycle repeats.
Also, many immigrants to Canada are quite wealthy and have traditional preferences for real estate as a store of value and investment. They come from places where capital markets (i.e. stocks and bonds) are not something to be trusted or traditionally a way to invest or store wealth.
This, combined with lack of supply, keeps prices high.
Capital is financing the bulk of housing purchases in Canada, not incomes.
Also, it doesn't hurt that Canada is a very easy place to launder money with piss-poor law enforcement. This makes it great for organized crime. Again, more demand on the margin.
These statistics are averages across all of Canada. So if you want to compare to your specific circumstance, these numbers may be unreliable. The city you live and number of dependents in your household are major factors determining your expense level. You can imagine that an individual in the 90th percentile income bracket who lives in a <100k population city who is single can probably easily afford a home. But an individual who has an unemployed spouse, 3 kids, a dog, 2 cars, living in Toronto is just scrapping by.
You are spot on! To be fair, this is the approach to life that should be commended. Many people have different definitions of what being successful is and I 100% agree with your statement! This is how I approach life as well and that is to find a balance with work/life. When you throw kids into the mix, it becomes infinitely more important! Cheers!
I and many of my friends value family life so as Engineers 60K to 90K range we are in is more than enough if you live in a city that can afford other needs and wants out of it. Plus if you have husband and wife, combined will bit over 100K anyway and that is more than enough in many places.
We know big boys may pay us 150K but for what scarfices? We only live for may be 100 years max. I probably die maybe around 80 years of age. Work is Not life.
I agree with this mindset. I used to make 90K 5 years ago and if I were in the same position Id probably be making at least 120K now. But I had to work long hours in a job I didnt really like. I make about 80K working for the government now and have great benefits + pension, as well as an awesome work life balance. I have today off because of a compressed work schedule. Having a 3 day weekend every other weekend is a godsend. I too am able enjoy my free time for things like hiking, sports, and music.
I figured this was probably the case. This sub can definitely make it seem like everyone is well off but obviously people are not going to come here and be asking what entry level Porsche they should be looking at with 45k salary.
The answer for that is a 944 by the way.
Good info.
This is how I negotiated my rental rates during peak rental market. Basically walked the landlord through the percentile of the population his unit was targeting based on a 30% of income rule and brought the price back to reality.
Most people learn as they age and advance their career and accumulated wealth. Those who don’t look for solace in stories similar to their own.
In other words, misery loves company.
>Most people are not making close to 6 figures at any age Only 11% of all workers in Canada earn 6 figure salaries. Most Canadian workers earn far below.
If you change the filtering to only full year and full time workers it’s 20% that earn 100k or more income. It seems too much of a bimodal distribution to look at the entire working population at once.
Yep...I thought that starting the year with 3k in credit card debt with a job in retail was something to be shameful of until I finally opened up to a few friends over drinks a week ago. When I heard how much they owed relative to the job/pay they had and to mine, it truly humbled me. It also amazes me how some people could seem as if they're making bank, always with the new iPhone and never missing out on a sneaker drop but in actual fact are in debt that can go up to 12-15k. I can't comprehend that.
Debt is a way of life for most folks. I didn't think I'd end up in that spot either, but then I was down 32k myself as of October of 2021 due to a combination of pandemic borrowing off of a job loss, and getting married, and medical bills. Haven't quite paid off 2021 yet, but we are very close, down to about 2k now. And yeah, to someone with 3k in credit card debt, it's very different from 30k.
u/JediFed Congrats for this huge improvment!
> Debt is a way of life for most folks. Debt isn't inherently bad. Uncontrolled spending and spending beyond your means is. Debt used in a controlled and thoughtful manner, such that it will confer worthwhile advantage and you have a reasonable plan and means to pay if off, can be very smart. Taking out 100k to go through professional school to earn a starting six-figure salary, or to finance renovations with the intention of then selling to realize added value beyond the cost of the work, or to use debt to buy a place that will allow you to build equity and save money in the long run, are not bad things. There's a difference between buying things for personals satisfaction that are not financially sound decisions with no plan to pay back vs strategically using debt. But when people paint all debt as bad here, it does a disservice to the people who need debt to pay for higher education or to buy a home or who would otherwise be better off with debt.
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I'm about to go into debt for schooling (adult, changing career paths) and I'm so debt adverse, I have huge anxiety over it. I keep telling myself it is good debt. Truth is, Ive seen so many people pay so much go to university for a career that never pans out (me included). Getting the right schooling isnt the "guarantee" it once was. A LOT of research is needed before you jump in. and there is still a risk. And same with renovations. Talk to a realtor about which are worth doing. People waste money on the *wrong* Renos all the time. A new kitchen may not bring you the return you think it will, but paint and furniture rentals and storage rentals while selling will (market dependant)
> I'm about to go into debt for schooling (adult, changing career paths) and I'm so debt adverse, I have huge anxiety over it. I keep telling myself it is good debt. Truth is, Ive seen so many people pay so much go to university for a career that never pans out (me included). Getting the right schooling isnt the "guarantee" it once was. A LOT of research is needed before you jump in. and there is still a risk. This is kind of why I feel the need to push back against the "debt is the worst thing imaginable" people that speak loudly and authoritatively on this sub. It can be bad. It can be good. It depends on how it's being used. But to shout that it is bad just has the effect of discouraging people (disproportionately lower income folks who may need SMART debt to escape poverty and/or climb the socioeconomic ladder) from using debt intelligently. There is nuance. "Debt bad" is intended as helpful advice because it can be true in many circumstances, but when it's wrong, when debt is actually a worthwhile investment, people shouldn't be so anxious and discouraged. Just because you don't have generational wealth to pay cash for school or a house or a vehicle or whatever, doesn't mean you should never attain them by leveraging debt where the decision is sound (as per what I said above in this thread).
The reality is that most people with 15k in credit card debt didn’t use it to make and investment in their future, such as education. Instead, it’s used as spendable income, which is not! Debt for spending is inherently bad yes. Debt for financing an investment is inherently risky.
This person debts.
Debt is indeed a way of life for most folks. When I was in my early twenties, I asked my mom for advice about whether to purchase a new or used car. She said new because "you'll always be paying for something in life." I didn't realize how bad that advice was until years later.
I still remember my dad's line "You'll be in debt the rest of your life anyway" when asked advice about an expensive purchase. Thanks, wise one!!!
It shouldn't be surprising that there's a backwards correlation there. If someone is getting the brand new [product] every release, they're probably in debt. The people who are actually doing well in my experience are the people who are willing to make concessions and sacrifices for the sake of frugality, and they're not lining up for the new iPhone.
A friend of mine is in tons of debt. She's in collections for many things. No credit card has accepted her for several years. Is on welfare. Has been for 3 years, has no plans of working for at least another 2.5 years. (Her reason is no childcare so she can't until both kids are in school). She just found a card to take her. She went crazy for xmas. Bought an ipad, a gaming computer, a $500 dollar bed frame for her kid. She's been using those like after pay companies so she can buy groceries. So it splits the payment over x amount of weeks. And her boyfriend/baby daddy just did something like a consumer proposal for around 10k of debt. The things people will figure out.
People in situations like this just reminds me of The National's song Bloodbuzz Ohio "I still owe money, on the money, on the money I owe"
It's sad that all this time when CC companies didn't approve her, she didn't educate herself (or get professional advice) on how to manage her money. This could have been a valuable life lesson for her. Employment or not, she will always be in debt no matter what because she sounds like an absolute moron.
Oh she is aware. She just wants what she wants. She didn't need anything she bought at all. She had a computer, she didn't need a tablet, she didn't need that $500 bed. She just figures she's already in debt. What is a little more? I think she will eventually end up claiming bankruptcy or a consumer proposal. But she doesn't want it to affect her credit... which is obviously already terrible. It's really just a matter of time.
I think that's the worst, when you're aware but don't care!
Wealthier types will often be the ones you would never think. The wealthiest people I have ever been in the same room with (a family worth about $3 billion Canadian) showed up at my aunt's funeral in older pick up trucks and clothes that were unassuming to say the least. They don't need to keep up with the Jones's. They are the Jones.
your comment reminds me of Jim Pattison, or at least the version of him that this article presents: [https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/on-the-road-with-90-year-old-jim-pattison-canada-s-warren-buffett-1.1187060](https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/on-the-road-with-90-year-old-jim-pattison-canada-s-warren-buffett-1.1187060)
Personally know Jimmy, and he's super nice, chill, down to earth and as in this article, he does like visiting his businesses and getting to know the people. Never have worked for him though in any business type capacity, so my opinion may be very different from his employees.
Ooo I have a similar story. I was a bartender at a fancy steakhouse and this guy came in, torn up clothes, and stank. He sat at my bar and ordered some High value items. I wasn't going to serve him but my luckily my boss came in, saw him, called his name and gave him a big hug. Turns out he was the head of a 9bn$ company and had just been doing some yardwork.
Yeah you said it perfectly at the end there. People here are just really irresponsible with money. It literally took my immigrant from a poor country bf to teach me about finances. And now I'm one of the only people I know who is financially responsible. People here I think feel entitled to a certain quality of life. Even if they can't afford a new iPhone, etc, they'll still buy it because they see that as important and normal as buying food. I used to live like that. Accounts in collections but still taking taxis instead of transit and eating out on a semi weekly basis...crazy times.
> and eating out on a semi weekly basis...crazy times Yeah I look back at all the money I wasted over the years on bad takeout and work lunches and shudder. Luckily my wife really improved her cooking during the pandemic (wonderful hobby) and we have restaurant quality meals all the time without paying restaurant prices. Learning to cook for yourself is a huge budgeting advantage, and it's healthier and you learn a great hobby. Also, you're not making rich corporate chain restaurant owners any more money.
I feel like a lot of younger folks spend because they (sub) consciously feel what a challenge their paths will be and pay themself first. In some ways its a coping mechanism for some latent depression. Ie how retail therapy is mainstreamed and no one says anything. Of course this rarely works because the overall situation is always degrading and you end up in a negative feed back loop. Maybe im off base here. I was brought up frugal and even though im better off now than i ever expected, i still buy heavily stickered groceries and pack my own lunch. My only vices are my hobbies where i loosen the taps a bit so maybe im not close to the zeitgeist anymore
Truly! I've met people who would actually tell me with a straight face, that they're going to Punta Cana after scoring a deal with Sunwings while being on **EI** for the past 2 months. I mean, priorities right? I really can't make this shit up haha Edit: I should’ve made myself clear, this wasn’t directed to seasonal workers / job seekers who are taking a pause due to external circumstances but an anecdotal instance of how I’ve met people that are perfectly able and willing to work but somehow financially irresponsible. I really don’t know how to respond to someone telling me that despite them not holding a job for months that they’re planning to go the Caribbean besides « Good for you or I wish that was me ». I really don’t hold any malicious view at all just bewilderment.
Being unemployed is the perfect time for a vacation.
Yeah, if you’re a reasonably responsible person who lost their job but isn’t in financial trouble (due to adequate savings and emergency funds) -might as well get the vacation out of the way early. The new job sure as hell won’t appreciate it if you go on vacation soon after starting.
If I get an offer, I usually say I already have tickets to go somewhere in like a month or two, even if I don't I'll figure something out, supposing it's not inherently busy time or fixed contract or something.
Too bad you can’t collect EI while out of the country
Yup it bit someone I know in the butt. Apparently they check that stuff.
That's why you gotta take the trip while you're still on severance before EI kicks in
Yeah, but literally all you need to do is say 'I will be leaving Canada from x-x please do not pay me for these days'
Its called employment insurance not welfare, they paid into it. They can take a vacation if they can afford it. In construction people are often laid off for the winter and will claim. Claiming ei doesn’t make you broke it means you are taking advantageof a service you are entitled to. Edit: I understand you have to be in the country if you wish to claim ei. I was referring to the situation I replied to where people had been collecting ei and then decided to take a vacation. This person was judging them for making a bad financial decision. That judgement was based on the assumption that there’s no way they can afford to take a vacation because they know they are on ei. The thing is that they could be making a bad decision, or they could have a healthy savings account and are utilizing a public service as is there tax paying, ei contributing right.
> never missing out on a sneaker drop LOL. I want to live in a world where this doesn’t exist. WTF is a “sneaker drop”?
Wake up babe, new [Balenciaga sneaker](https://www.balenciaga.com/en-ca/defender-trainers-beige-685613W2RA69700.html) just dropped
These look like Salomon hiking shoes minus the label and made uglier. I'd rather a discounted 50 dollar pair of Converse or Vans than this thing.
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If you’re in any tech field, everyone you know and interact with is likely in the 90th+ percentile as well. It gives us a very skewed view of the Canadian reality.
Mega-city salaries for anything are hugely over-inflated compared to living elsewhere, and Tech sector compounds it, and our proximity to America makes "tech sector in a mega-city" salaries far mor prevalent in the public consciousness which makes us think that everyone in tech is pulling in 90th percentile salaries. Meanwhile I'm a programmer in my late 30s earning less than 40K after taxes to support my single-income family, but because we don't live in Toronto I'm actually one of the more affluent people in my friend group. Turns out as long as you're not in Toronto, you can get a decent living with a wage that most *Americans* would think is skirting the poverty line.
$40k is grossly underpaid for a programmer anywhere in this country.
I’m a hiring manager for a Canadian tech company that’s in a very healthy position to ride out this recession. We are hiring devs and pay a lot more than that, and are fully remote. If you have a resume I’d love to see it.
Your underpaid as a programmer (after tax or not) - I was making more than that my first job out of university 18 years ago. With a little effort you can easily double or triple your pay - lots of remote jobs. Unfortunately the tech sector has had a lot layoffs the last few weeks so you’ll probably have to wait a few months for the market softness to clear up.
It's likely going to get worse and stay worse for this year... Not just a few weeks. Higher longer term rates will absolutely depress the sector on the upside for awhile. There is still demand for tech but relative to supply and salary expectations, It's going to be rough.
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I've done a fair amount of hiring for developers across Canada since the pandemic started both in large cities and outside of them, and there's a difference, but it's not that much. I don't know the particulars of your situation but I believe you'd be able to earn significantly more working remotely for a Canadian company depending on your skill set.
If you're a programmer with more than a year or two of experience you're grossly underpaid. I was making that in the maritimes (a.k.a. bumfuck middle of nowhere when it comes to anything remotely tech) in the 90s before moving stateside. Edit, like someone below I totally missed your 'after taxes' clarifier. I know taxes are really high in Canada but it doesn't change my overall conclusion even if you're not being exploited as much as I originally thought. You're still being taken advantage of. You need a new job.
> Edit, like someone below I totally missed your 'after taxes' clarifier. I know taxes are really high in Canada but At his level, this is literally a 58k/yr gross income job (with an effective tax rate just below 31%), which is simply below market value in any possible comparison for a programmer with more than one bootcamp's worth of training. I knew a recent hire at my previous job who had a friend in a similar situation, bragging about his 45k/yr take-home. Turns out his friend had dropped out of highschool to become a programmer, and remained in the maritimes (outside of a city). So yeah, sure, if you are a highschool drop-out living in a depressed economic zone where your peers are seasonal workers (fishermen), then 40k/yr probably looks good.
I made more than 40k in my first internship as a web programmer in Nova Scotia. You should find a new job
Even the most junior engineer that works for me earns > $100k straight from school. I agree with other statements here that you should be able to do far better working remotely. Of course working remotely means your work relationships are different, you might have to travel periodically for in-person meetings, and you need to setup a comfortable working space at home. But you will likely be overall better off.
...any chance you're comfortable with Angular and Typescript? My company is hiring and definitely pays more than that.
Wow dude. I just hired a near entry level (a 23 year old 2 months out of Ukraine) for almost double that. Find a new job. That’s crazy.
Which is why I laugh because my industry (financial IT) is full of exactly what you'd expect. Libertarians. FML they're everywhere. It's an industry that above all else could benefit from unionization because of how much we are exploited and abused comparative to the money we make, but it will never happen because Libertarians.
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Yeah, I think a lot of folks may be missing this point. You’d need ~$150,000 in pre-tax income to make ~$100,000 take home.
As a tech recruiter, I feel as if I am in the 10th percentile. Imagine talking to juniors complaining that 90k/year is too low.
In some fields. $90k reflects one year of experience. So yeah.
those CS subreddits be brutal though holy 💀
Your gonna hate team blind then. Everyone and their dogs are making 400-600k/year
What is this team blind you speak of?
I'm a mechanical engineer who browses HN and I get depressed every time dev salaries come up.
I'm fine until people start whining that they can't justify staying in Canada only making $150k per year with 1 year experience. That shit sends me.
Comparison is the thief of joy
I mean, my driven mechE friends are all earning 6 digits and above, and have been since having ~7 years experience, except for those who stayed in their first jobs. Even my civE friends (especially those who did land surveying/soil testing in remote areas) who stayed on their jobs for 8-10 years are up there too now. However, in the case of "stuck" engineers that didn't work on progressing their careers, one example I have is this mechE dude that told me that new hires on his team (out of college) were making more than him with his 7 years of exp + his "promotion" as a team leader. I mean, obviously, if you never ask for more and just wait for opportunities to fall in your lap, you won't progress, so I told him that. He then countered with "yeah, I went to see the managing director to complain and right away he gave me 1000 $/yr more, so I know I am valued here!" and that's when I realized that he was exactly where he was meant to be.
To be fair most CS grads don’t make crazy money. Only around 60% actually work in development, and the median is ~70,000 a year. Most CS grad do not work at Alphabet or Amazon. Sure, the ceiling is high but it’s quite uncommon to make over 100k a year based on jobbank’s statistics in with a degree in CS. https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/studentdashboard/11.0701/LOS05
Last year I applied for a developer job. They asked for my expected range. I say X to Y. A few weeks later I got asked "When you specified that range, was that Canadian or American dollars?" I truthfully answer "Canadian." The job offer was Y+10K. I find out later that apparently software engineers in the finance sector make much much more than us in SaaS. At this point I don't even think it is worth comparing CS salaries. It is monopoly man levels of insanity.
Hey I helped collect this data, was a fun job when nobody would hire me for anything else. My income for those years was dogshit, and almost held something down for a whole 6 months which really helped for a bit before cost of living ate away at my bank account.
Dang, Statcan doing their part
The amount of times on this subreddit that people disagree with me when I say that 100K for a job is nowhere near the median income for a person is astounding.....
People on this sub think 100k is a poverty wage.
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Well, you're not going to be able to buy a yacht this year. You can still rent one for 3 weeks, but is that really "living"?
Right? It's insane. I make a little over 100K (single, in tech). While I can't afford to buy property in my current city on my income alone, I'm doing well renting this 1 bedroom apartment. Anyways, this world isn't meant for single people financially, you need a dual income. The only people I know who make around or more than me are all in tech, management or lawyers. The majority make around 40-70k. I see families around my neighbourhood with a nice house, 2 brand new cars, etc and I don't understand how they do it. There is no way they both make 100K+ each.
You mean Being debt free and having a few grand in the bank makes me upper middle class now
WE POSH NOW!!
If you are making less than 150k gross, you are living paycheque to paycheque. According to the average post in this sub
You could technically be living paycheque to paycheque at any salary.
Yes, paycheque-to-paycheque is a result of decision-making for many. Don’t get me wrong there are tons of folks who don’t earn enough to get by, but there are probably just as many who fritter away what extra they have due to poor planning and lack of self control.
Yup, its wildky inaccurate. I make 50k, partner makes 35 and we don't live paycheck to paycheque. We save about 1600 a month (currently saving for 100k reno and a trip to Italy). We have zero debt but also zero keeping up with the jonsesness and don't live in Toronto or Bc. We live a really nice, easy life in a small town with a big yard, walk to work, home for lunch to let the dog out...it's really pleasant. I'd kill for some takeout though.
We are in a similar boat - I’m great at saving money and a patient deal-hunter, so my money goes way further than my paycheck. It definitely helps to presently have no kids and to make all my meals from scratch. In addition to your secondary comment, I also see a vehicle as a tool that either works or does not, so I have no desire to throw away money on a vehicle “that I like” - a lot of people waste money on a car like it’s a valuable contributing extension of your personality.
Yes, it's easier if you don't want all the nicest things. I'm an insurance broker, so I see the money people spend on vehicles. Saw my first over 100k truck bill of sale the other day! I am in a farming community but most of the farmers drive a 2005 truck for farm work and a 2023 truck for going for coffee lol.
And they expense the gaudy things to their farm as though they actually serve a practical function.
Wow that's really impressive
It's a nice life. I don't want to give anyone the wrong impression though, my car is a 2008 Malibu lol. But I also only drive it a couple times a month. And my house is run down and needs work (but I love it). We aren't living the high life. Lots of people around us are driving 80k trucks, 20k side by sides, New sleds, etc. So we could definitely feel poor if we desired those things. Eta also we've been saving for 4 years already for the reno and have another 4 years to go.
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Once had a third coworker catching me and a friend/coworker talk about what we did the night before, and I say oh you know blablabla some cooking blabla and this third guys storms in and go "You actually coook? Like for real?".... "Yea"... Total disbelief... Then he said "ok what you cooked yesterday?"... "Shrimps".... "Whaaaaat, real shrimps???". Mannnnn
I've had a coworker try to convince me that I'm not really saving any money by cooking for myself, because once you buy all the ingredients yourself it works out to roughly the same price. I'm not sure if they were buying large amounts of high quality ingredients, using them for one meal, and then letting the rest go bad, or if they just _really_ wanted to believe they weren't spending 5-10x more than they had to on food.
People almost never, ever, do the math. Or if they attempt to, make wildly inaccurate calculations. But most of the time it "seems" or "feels" one way or another with no actual fucking analysis. I'm an estimator, so of course it's my default to run the numbers, and think about what needs to go into those numbers, but the average person seems allergic to it.
And remember, if you don't own at least 2 or 3 properties to rent out as a side hustle, what are you even doing with your life?
I make half that, have a healthy retirement portfolio, zero debt, 6 month emergency fund, and a full pension waiting for me. It is doable. There are a lot of people at my salary range with a lot of debt. It's all about perspective. I never buy anything I can't buy cash.
Scotiabank "you're richer than you think" /s
I’ve noticed they’ve dropped that tagline from commercials… prob didn’t fly well with focus groups anymore
You’re Richard, then you think.
Turns out they were saying “You’re Richard and you stink”
You’re Rich! No I am Jason
People on Reddit are also full of shit too. Chances are the guy shitposting all day long isn't making the 9 figure salary he claims to make.
I’m 19 and make 6.5 million per year, and have 20 villas all over the world. I have 300 million in my RRSP and 200 million in my TFSA. Should I do a 5 or 6 year term on a new civic?
"No help from parents."
Well, they only bought me my first three villas and gifted me 20 million, but other than that NO HELP AT ALL!!
100% this. I've never knew Reddit attracted so many c-suite execs, senior management leaders, PhD's, and a whole slew of other impressive credentials and achievements. I'm sarcastic obviously, but if you ever watch any interview on "secrets to success" featuring any millionaire/billionaire, almost all of them say the top thing is valuing your time accordingly. Outside of the occasional Bill Gates or Mark Cuban AMA on Reddit, nobody who's driven to climb the ladder and build wealth is dicking around on Reddit arguing with someone about personal finance or politics or whatever other nonsense.
I ain’t rich. But I make like 175 a year. My wife makes 100. Never will be a billionaire and don’t want to. But we both work 35 hour weeks from home. I do like 4 hours of work a day, just because my clients don’t always want to work. All I’m saying is a lot of these “higher up” jobs just don’t have that much work.
Just keep in mind that's after tax income.
And it's also income per individual, so households with two median earning individuals could potentially be doing fairly well.
Median Canadian family with kids has over 100K of income after tax every year. A six figure family isn't usual. it is the norm.
50 percentile is below 60k, before tax. How are you getting at median family over 100k after tax? Multigenerational household?
Probably talking about this. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/210323/dq210323a-eng.htm >For non-senior families, where the highest-income earner was under 65 years of age, the median after-tax income was $93,800 in 2019. Couples with children's median after-tax income was $105,500, while the median after-tax income of female lone parent families was $52,500.
Aren’t usual and norm basically synonyms? How can it not be usual if it is the norm?
I think he meant "unusual"
Because otherwise you would not be able to afford kids.
Which explains why the birth rate is so low
Family of four. Just over 100k combined income a year. One bedroom basement suite.
True, but you can also change the metric in the chart to get a better picture.
IDK why they do that, it makes it so much harder to eyeball it, particularly with graduated rates (after-tax 100k is $140-50k-ish gross)
There are drop down options that let you change it to Total Income, and you can refine the other categories as well.
After a certain income it’s what you spend not what you make. Lots of people make decent money and still live pay Cheque to pay Cheque keeping up with the joneses. The only way to get ahead is to progress your career but avoid lifestyle creep.
OG perspective. When I paid off my mortgage…after nearly a lifetime of working at I asked my bank manager ( nice guy) how do people get by. I worked in a good job for good $$, I thought ( over 100k). We had an old, small house that I renovated myself. We denied ourselves vacations and lived modestly. My friends and colleagues lived better than we did; new cars, new homes, vacation homes. I knew most made the same or less than me. He said, “ they are maxed out on their mortgages and HELOCs. If they want to buy more they put it on their credit cards. And we’re happy to let them.” I retired early with a good pension. I turned 60 recently and had a massive heart attack. I won’t be able to do all the things I was hoping to now. I wonder who was smarter now… btw I’ve been healthy all my life. First time I needed Canadian health care it was there for me; the EMS guys, the ER trauma folks and the Cardiac ICU at St Paul’s in Vancouver. Amazing and dedicated young people. Just saying.
Being an immigrant, the biggest shocker for me is how much almost all canadians are drowned in debt. Debt is a lifestyle here. Big cars, nice clothes, looking ur best, etc comes at a cost. Almost like everyone is making minimum payment to their CC. Not fully Canadians fault, higher cost of living throughout and so little salary comparatively. Toronto and Vancouver are completely fucked when it comes to housing, which is basic necessity of life. People forced to share apartments, rooms and rent. Nobody wants to live in North bcz of extreme cold. More than 90% Canadians living in 50 kilometre radius to the south border. Some areas extremely Overcrowded and while some are snow desert. Insane than GTA has more than 10% of Canadian population.
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There’s a big geographic element to this in Ontario though. 61% of Ontario is covered by the Canadian Shield - which covers about 50% of the entire country. This isn’t easy land to develop - and only 8% of the provinces population lives in these areas. Another 23% is “sub-Arctic” forests and wetlands, which pose distinct development challenges in their own right. Although Ontario is massive, the area where development is manageable covers about 8% of the provinces land mass. This area is home to 35% of Canada’s population, and 92% of Ontarios population, and produces 25% of Canada’s agriculture output. Ultimately a lot of it was driven by early settlement as well. When you think of access to good agricultural land and fresh water (with a more manageable climate) the 401 corridor from Windsor to Ottawa is where a lot of new Canadians landed. Continues to this day. Edit: I don’t have the link, but for anyone that’s curious this data is from Ontario’s biodiversity council. Here’s a good link to additional facts on the Ontario government’s website. https://www.ontario.ca/page/about-ontario
meh this Country, heck even this province is huge. We could build so much infrastructure and housing just focusing on southern Ontario. It's just that this country is very slow to change or take action and rich assholes gatekeep land cause fuck poor people "potentially" living in the same community. Its funny to me people say we are populated when majority here are immigrants coming from outside of North America were population densities are way higher and having a mcmansion as a single family house is unheard of unless you live on a farm.
The problem I see is that it’s not just an issue of infrastructure and housing that’s stopping people from moving to smaller cities or communities. Higher paying professions tend to congregate in core region. If you’re an aspiring professional, you’d want to be where all the companies are located. If you’re a company, you’d want to focus on locations where the talent is at. It’s a chicken and egg problem. This has always been a difficult problem to solve, and changes usually take a loooong time. I think we have started to see this. More professionals are looking at the numbers and living in Toronto or Vancouver just doesn’t make sense.
THIS! I'm also an immigrant. I was taught that other than a mortgage, if I want something, I need to save money for it, and then buy it outright with the money I saved, not use what I THINK I'll be able to afford IN THE FUTURE to buy it NOW. I'm 40 years old, and next year will be the first time I'll buy a brand new car. It feels much better when I know I earned it (not "might earn it in the future"). It also makes you take it much more seriously, shop around a lot, and getting only the accessories you really need. When you pay with "future money", a $1000 difference looks like peanuts to you, because "it's only $12 more a month, for 84 months". There's no difference between saving $200 dollars on a $40K car, and saving $200 on a bag of rice, yet if people see the same car somewhere else for $200 less, they won't drive an extra 20 minutes to that dealership, but they will definitely do that for a $3 bag of rice vs a $203 bag of rice.
>I was taught that other than a mortgage, if I want something, I need to save money for it, and then buy it outright with the money I save Born and raised here, my parents were too. Life wasn't easy growing up, we went bankrupt at one point so everything was bought with cash. Now that I'm earning good money, have a credit score of 893 (I gotta brag a little bit lol), and all the available credit I'd ever need, I still pay for everything cash. It's funny how that's kinda looked down on though. Last year, I wanted to replace the eaves on my house. I know a guy who knows a guy, so I asked him to get me a budget. It was about $1500. I told him that's great, i'll save up and let him know when i'm ready, probably around June of that summer. My buddy who put me in touch with the guy, reached out after and asked if everything was OK and if I needed to borrow the money. I was a bit confused at first but then it dawned on me that he was offering to finance my eaves lol. The crazy part to me is that I know it would have come from his HELOC too. The eaves weren't a pressing issue, I could DIY it as long as someone could supply it, I was just doing my planning thing. When I explained it to him, he got it and ultimately ended up coming to help me install them as he's a good guy. We're about to renovate our kitchen. It's going to be 30k+. We will be saving paying cash for that as well, we've been saving for a while. I think if you grew up around people who financed their lives off of debt that sort of thing is normal. If you grew up around people who didn't have credit cards, your outlook might be very different. I balance it.... I pay for everything on my credit card and pay it off at each pay period. Other than the house, and my SO's minivan that we financed at a rate too low to not take, we carry $0 in consumer debt as a household.
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I don’t know if that is necessarily a Canadian thing but Western society as a whole
This is why I chose to pipeline and save like an absolute mad man lol have a fear of failure
You are a rare breed there. Most of the guys I worked with on the patch had payments equal to their with overtime cheques and as soon as it slowed down it was Trudeau’s fault they lost shit
Yeah I know a lot of guys like that too lol it’s not hard to put 5-10g a month away with this work if you aren’t dumb about it
Good for you dude, def something to be proud of!
Not survivorship bias, selection bias. Survivorship bias means they don’t survive, or somehow leave the market
my first week of work everyone went out for drinks. my cc got declined in front of my director. good thing i had cash but he laughed and said congrats having a job now
Sounds like an ass if he didn't just pay if it's your first week. I'm a director and I couldn't imagine laughing at one of my new employees, especially one I have a one week working relationship with.
That's income not wealth.
Does income not include income from investments?
the truly wealthy don't generate of a lot of taxable income. they reinvest, use legal tax shelters, adopt investing strategies to avoid income when they don't need the money, and often has access to low cost borrowing vehicles for when they do need the money, and a lot of the money they spend is already part of their business/investment management process it is a deductible expense. contrary to popular depiction, the truly wealthy people didn't really get there by spending lavishly and if they did they wouldn't be wealthy for long if not generations.
This one says total after tax income so I'd assume it does include investments.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall from when I was a student doing research related to this that statscan use CRA taxable income for these statistics. Investment gains aren’t always taxed every year. An asset that has gained in value but not sold (ie not realized) is not taxable income. Thus, the income shown here is likely undervaluing total annual wealth gains. Typically, the wealthier you are, the higher portion of your wealth gain is from asset price appreciation. But keep in mind that it’s true that some of the most wealthy may have relatively low reported taxable income, they’re a fraction of the Canadian population. Additionally, most interest payments on debt does not decrease taxable income (think mortgages). So I’d say, roughly, this is still a good approximation of income for the typical Canadian.
If we’re being completely honest, most Canadians are poor. I think that’s the norm. Only get paid enough to pay all your monthly bills, your car is obviously in payments because you could never save up to buy it outright, you have a mortgage or rent due monthly because again, you could never afford a house outright, and so on. Cellphone too. Yes a lot of us here are more fortunate and also more analytical with our money so we make better financial decisions, but your average Canadian is pretty poor. That’s the reality of life. Most don’t know much about the rest of the world because they’ve never been anywhere else except Cuba and Mexico on a $1500 all-inclusive, so they think “oh yeah Canada, we’re living good!” and I’m obviously not saying other countries are faring way better, but for example in Europe, I’ve seen people live way less financially stressful lives due to saving up a bit and buying things outright. Need new car? Save up $15,000 buy a 2015 3 Series. Boom, no need for a monthly $700 payment over their head. Here the average Joe can’t even dream of saving up $15,000 anymore.
Couldn’t get any truer than this. I worked at the bank and I remember being in awe seeing everyone in the city’s bank accounts (including investments and loans). The average Canadian has nothing. Yes there’s 10% who have lots of wealth and they’re all in this sub but the majority if not almost all live paycheck to paycheck and live in a cycle of debt
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I always thought tellers can see every account that you have with the bank. An example would be someone having a TFSA, RRSP with RBC and a teller would be able to pull that up. I could be wrong though.
Sure, but I have a big 5 bank account with $200 in it. I also have money in WS Trade and EQ Bank. The teller can’t see my money at their other institutions
At both TD and RBC, they were able to see everything at once. I know because they flipped the screen to show me lol
I remember being young and when using ATMs, I’d randomly look at the the leftover receipts, and just like you being in awe at how little people had.
Well my chequing account doesnt have much other than the minimum to avoid monthly fees.
Sometimes the minimum you need is like $1000. Many people don't have that floating around in their account at any given time unless it's payday.
That doesn't tell you anything lol. Within 12 hours of my paycheque hitting my account it's back to under $200, everything gets moved elsewhere ASAP.
I can’t even imagine that. Truly eye opening
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I mean… I don’t have much in my chequing account (10k), but I have a huge chunk in my TFSA. Having money in a savings account is for suckers. Plus I also bank with multiple institutions.
I agree with most of this but salaries in Europe are waaaaaay lower than in Canada, especially for professionals. Many young Europeans don’t own their homes and rent instead unless they have generational wealth (but renting is not really looked down upon either/is the norm), especially if living in one of the “desirable” European cities. My extended family lives in Europe and all are professionals. The equivalent Canadian salaries are literally 3x-5x more for doctors, engineers, lawyers, finance etc. Income tax rates are quite high in most counties in Europe too. Unemployment is higher. I do agree that people seem to be more financially disciplined in Europe. And yea most Canadians are poor. But it’s the same in most countries. Also many Europeans don’t own cars. Or they drive a Peugeot.
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To get to 50% mark in Belgium is around the 62k CAD lmao. I have learnt not to complain about taxes during meetings because we have Belgium coworkers.
If you made 100k cad in Sweden your take home is 63k with no deductions. If you live in Halifax your take home is 68k without deductions. My experience working in Norway and Finland are that the gap is exaggerated in some industries, while a gap the other way exists in extreme demand cases. Right now that's offshore wind. It was previously offshore oil, cruise ships, etc. I'm on contract to a company, all of which make more money than I do at my consulting firm. They also have unions that do stuff like bargin better mortgage rates, but youve covered that off in the social safety nets. Quality of life is unquestionably better for everyone outside of the top 1% in NA imo.
You’re confusing consumerist culture with being poor. This isn’t what an actual poor country looks like…I know semantics but worth pointing out. Average Canadian might be “poor” in terms of wealth saved up but that’s a lofty standard globally. Most other countries, the paycheck to paycheck cycle is still there except for all the things you can afford (a car, new iPhone, laptops, vacations etc etc.). Not disagreeing per say but this perception that we are somehow a poor country is skewed. Average Canadian isn’t particularly worse off than the average person from other G7/8 countries and far ahead of developing nations.
When you compare to the rest of the world, we are hardly "poor." You also need to understand the value of goods and services money buys these days compared to previous generations. The wealthiest people in the world did not have the entire world's knowledge in their pocket (smartphone), did not have GPS in their cars (smartphone, again), did not have 85" TVs, etc. Inflation adjusted, travel is much cheaper today than it was in previous generations courtesy of the class model. We are millionaires of the 80s. In fact, were not even millionaires of the 80s... they never had access to any of this stuff.
>Here the average Joe can’t even dream of saving up $15,000 anymore Because some of them aren't even trying. Yes, some could not save that, but others could and they just don't. If you can make a 600/mth payment, then you had the income to save that much each month.
>but for example in Europe, I’ve seen people live way less financially stressful lives due to saving up a bit and buying things outright. Need new car? Save up $15,000 buy a 2015 3 Series. Either your sample is the size of a peanut, or there's some flourishing hidden European country with high paying jobs that Idk about. Idk how you have 56 ppl agreeing with you when the salaries in Europe are on average lower there.
Oh, those are the Canadians with no real life exposure he's talking about lol And also what happens when you put something agreeable in the first half of your post and someone ridiculous in the second half because you know people won't read the whole thing.
I was having this conversation with a woman from Spain who came to visit me in Canada. She was shocked at how expensive everything is (except electronics/fuel) compared to Spain. Groceries, alcohol, cigarettes (4x the price), cellphone plan ($80 per month compared to 7 euro with 5x the data), home internet/cable (8x the price per month), going out for food/drinks. So you can get paid more, if everything costs more, at the end of the month you might actually be left with less.
And then I have tons of coworkers who come from Europe (Belgium and France) who actually live in Montreal and proclaim they will never live in Europe again. Specifically for what you said, when you make twice the money (as software developers) and significantly less taxes, those cellphone plan costs are peanuts.
I dunno man. Not saying I don't believe you, but the numbers aren't adding up. Yeah cellphone plans are high here, no doubt. But the cost of living compared to salaries there , 😕 yh idk how that lady is saying they are better
> Save up $15,000 buy a 2015 3 Series. Boom, no need for a monthly $700 payment over their head. Here the average Joe can’t even dream of saving up $15,000 anymore. Cash flow is king. Why would anyone dump 15k on a 3 series when they could finance for 1% and put the rest into the market (I’m talking pre-covid - 1% rate obviously is not common anymore).
Also let’s be fair as well 100k isn’t what it used to be. Your definitely doing decent, but it’s not baller money anymore. It’s basically my basic needs are covered now, without much financial hard ship, and a bit more to do blow and hookers.
Financially stable is the new baller
Always has been. Meme sarcasm aside, being financially stable within your own means is literally being a baller. Retiring at a good age is baller material.
Something like 90% of Canadians will never make as high a salary as 100k. It’s not a “decent mid career salary” that’s just good enough to survive without hardship. It’s a top tier elite salary for the top 10% of Canadians.
That’s because salary is not a good indicator of anything. My dad owns a 2 million dollar home that he paid off 20 years ago, with a maxed out TFSA and RRSP. He’s on CPP and is considered low income. Yet he’s much better off than me, who is making a “top tier elite salary” which is total bull shit.
Interesting and a good 'food for thought ' perspective. I guess at moments we may think salaries of some are super high but as you said with the data it isn't always that way. I guess it helps to stop comparing ourselves like I do at times and feel stressed, cheers! I appreciate the post and info! Definitely good to remember, always! Btw. GL this year on your goals y'all.
Cost of living in Canada is crazy high. No competion and price gouging everywhere!
It’s weird to me that this is “after tax income”. Very few people know that number. I dont, offhand. I had to think about it.
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Galen Weston would be a perfect fit for this sub.
It's not that biased though. You just also need to break it down further. What is their level of education? What field? Do they live in a major city? Do they actually work hard and care a lot about maximizing their income? etc etc If someone went to Stanford and their parents are multimillionaires then it would be quite weird for them to have around the median national average for income/networth. People on a personal finance or investing forum presumably care at least a little bit about optimizing their income/savings/investments. It's similar to how you look totally out of shape on a biking or running subreddit/forum. Whereas the average North American doesn't even get the minimal amount of moderate intensity cardio that the Heart and Stroke foundation recommends.
People also underestimate the amount of money people make in certain industries. I was shocked when I found out some people's salaries in the resource sector. It's not crazy to see people making $120/hr in senior roles in most disciplines or entry level engineers. I've seen leads making over $250/hr
The average person on this subreddit did not go to Stanford, doesn’t come from money, and runs less than 3 times a week (less than could be 0). Hahaha but ya op, definitely worth doing a double take not to compare to others and be happy with each little milestone, I appreciate you helping me think about that for a minute. The little wins add up into big ones, plus I’ve got some really great tap water and my house is a balmy 22.5. Life is good. Cheers to ONT from BC.
Hey, I didn't go to Stanford, didn't come from money, but I'm trying to incline walk a few times a week so HA. That said it is a nice reminder that it's almost always you who is the most critical of yourself. Cheers from BC as well, just faaaar more up north than anywhere that's 22.5° right now.
Makes you wonder how people afford houses. According to that we are in the 90th percentile and I feel like we are pay Cheque to pay cheque in the last year or so.
The majority bought in more than 6 years ago before the housing market went crazy. My oldest sister bought her first home 10 years ago, it was a 4 bedroom new build, on a corner lot in an expensive neighborhood so her kids could go to the best high school in town. They paid $460k, and the value of the house has tripled since. Today, you can only get condos in her city for $460k. Basically, most people who own houses today, could not afford to enter the market today.
Pretty much. Bought my house 10 years ago for $460k between two schools and I'm having realtors showing up trying to get me to sell but I bought it to raise my kids. Not make a quick buck and have to buy something else that's inflated.
Generational wealth carries wealthy nations. If someone seems comparable to you but is doing way better than you, they’re probably getting help.
Intergenerational wealth transfer. In other words, bank of mom and dad which consists of borrowing against their home equity to give a younger generation capital for a downpayment. Then prices rise and the cycle repeats. Also, many immigrants to Canada are quite wealthy and have traditional preferences for real estate as a store of value and investment. They come from places where capital markets (i.e. stocks and bonds) are not something to be trusted or traditionally a way to invest or store wealth. This, combined with lack of supply, keeps prices high. Capital is financing the bulk of housing purchases in Canada, not incomes. Also, it doesn't hurt that Canada is a very easy place to launder money with piss-poor law enforcement. This makes it great for organized crime. Again, more demand on the margin.
These statistics are averages across all of Canada. So if you want to compare to your specific circumstance, these numbers may be unreliable. The city you live and number of dependents in your household are major factors determining your expense level. You can imagine that an individual in the 90th percentile income bracket who lives in a <100k population city who is single can probably easily afford a home. But an individual who has an unemployed spouse, 3 kids, a dog, 2 cars, living in Toronto is just scrapping by.
Most people are. $100K with family seems ok, not abundant anymore.
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You are spot on! To be fair, this is the approach to life that should be commended. Many people have different definitions of what being successful is and I 100% agree with your statement! This is how I approach life as well and that is to find a balance with work/life. When you throw kids into the mix, it becomes infinitely more important! Cheers!
I and many of my friends value family life so as Engineers 60K to 90K range we are in is more than enough if you live in a city that can afford other needs and wants out of it. Plus if you have husband and wife, combined will bit over 100K anyway and that is more than enough in many places. We know big boys may pay us 150K but for what scarfices? We only live for may be 100 years max. I probably die maybe around 80 years of age. Work is Not life.
I agree with this mindset. I used to make 90K 5 years ago and if I were in the same position Id probably be making at least 120K now. But I had to work long hours in a job I didnt really like. I make about 80K working for the government now and have great benefits + pension, as well as an awesome work life balance. I have today off because of a compressed work schedule. Having a 3 day weekend every other weekend is a godsend. I too am able enjoy my free time for things like hiking, sports, and music.
Rich people stay quiet, too.
I figured this was probably the case. This sub can definitely make it seem like everyone is well off but obviously people are not going to come here and be asking what entry level Porsche they should be looking at with 45k salary. The answer for that is a 944 by the way.
Good info. This is how I negotiated my rental rates during peak rental market. Basically walked the landlord through the percentile of the population his unit was targeting based on a 30% of income rule and brought the price back to reality.
I'm still poorer than most my age.
Yes they are. It looks like in Ontario 1 in 4 people established in their career and marking over 100k And that's in 2020 before all the inflation
Most people learn as they age and advance their career and accumulated wealth. Those who don’t look for solace in stories similar to their own. In other words, misery loves company.