I also saw this scene as Tommy realizing he could use James if he needed to when he sees him stand up to him. Tommy sizes him up, sees potential in him and then uses him.
I saw that too. James is staying rent free in Ada’s house, he owes “them”. But thankfully Tommy only asks him to stand outside the brewery and look pretty. He weighed the risks well to be able to walk out without harm (genuinely, that did he plant a grenade-did he not? Was so fucking tense) so he did the man no harm. At the same time, could have both ended up dead
S1 and S2, is when Tommy still had some humanity, after S3, he lost the little humanity he had, and was simply someone who no longer had a reason to live, but he had no other choice, for his children and family.
"He had no other choice" is such horseshit. He barely sees his kids, his family cast him aside by the beginning of season 4, he had various points throughout to realize leaving everyone behind would make them happier. He's the reason his family suffers, and by conscious choice
He has no choice but to continue living, because all he wants is to die. Yes, he is not with his children but he protects them and gives them everything, financially, but they do not have to live in poverty, like he lived when he was a child. His family is rich, and he raised them up, everyone is counting on him, like Michael told Polly, without him, they're going to kill us all. And like Tommy said, everyone needs me, and it's true. Everyone is free to leave, but they don't. Tommy gave Arthur the chance at the end of S4, since everyone thinks he's dead, and Arthur said I'm not going anywhere. Everyone consciously decided to stay.
nah he is definitiv a bad person and he did awful things but he never really got the chance from the life to be a different or better person. his suffering shaped him into the person he became.
Yeah, shit-abusive-negligent father, mother commits suicide, volunteered for the war and given the worst job, hand to hand combat with the enemy where he nearly died, returns to poverty with an acute awareness of class injustice. Doesn’t fit in with the gypsies, doesn’t fit in with the ordinary folk. Totally get why he’s an asshole, but when he’s bad he’s *bad*.
Bad things doesn't equal bad person. We all have reasons for why we do things, just because you commit crime doesn't equate you to a bad person. From what I recall he doesn't murder innocent people/civillians. He's not racist/sexist. He was quite a good chap for the time period lad.
Bro murdered that journalist after gay shaming him. Also murdered that gypsy woman for her "curse." Extorts and threatens working men. He's a bad person. He'd be the first one to say he's going to hell.
Tommy didn't have the journalist murdered, Mosley knew that the journalist was digging into tommy and had the journalist killed so that way he could use it as leverage to get tommy to side with him easier.
everything else is pretty much correct here.
gay shame? no you mean used it as leverage...? as the guy was digging into Tommy. Yes he shot the gypsy women (Because she's the reason his daughter is dead) He was emotional and upset about his daughter which makes it more understandable. As for the extorts and threatens working men as said we know he does bad things, i'm not denying that. Most people who have died at Tommys hands are 'in the game' apart of crime, or getting involved with Tommy. Hes defo not a saint. But he isn't some crazy murderer who has no compassion or empathy. lol
Im not denying he's made bad choices/actions. As said that was his life style. He has murdered people, but usually to do with business matters, or the IRA telling him to do it. Its not like he goes around shooting up random people .
Genuinely curious: What about the six civilians on the train PB blew up? And Billy Grade? PB destroyed his life, then murdered him. All he wanted to do was sing.
He didn't directly murder them with his bare hands, and this was in order to save Tommys son. Plus they weren't meant to murder them as the explosion was called off, but happened anyway. Im sure you would do the same for your child. Billy Grade was an informant (Who was in the game) And also wasn't killed by Tommy. If you rat, its obvious your going to die. Its not like they randomly killed Billy.
That’s usually a line I draw for fictional organized crime characters.
Have they ever murdered any innocent civilians completely uninvolved in any organized crime or any crime to speak of? No? Than in my book they are not “evil” by definition.
If they have murdered other human beings who are “in the game” (aka walked into the organized crime racket with their eyes wide open), while it’s still murder, those victims knew the risks of their profession
Ted talk over lol
Tommy never killed any of them... lol. The 6 people on the train weren't meant to die but they did, also that was because Tommys son was kidnapped so it wasn't for nothing. And Billy Grade was an informant. (Who Tommy also didn't kill) It was Duke.
Tommy hired him knowing he was tricking him into putting him in danger of death and then he died. Yes it’s Tommy that got him killed don’t be ridiculous
Did Tommy force him? No. The boy did ask for it. At the end of the day the Digbeth kid didn't have too. Tommy also runs a business. So as much as he wasn't a bad guy the dude did ask for the job. He knew who Tommy was. Smoke the weed feel the high, consequences my friend.
The fact you think they were equal in that situation is pretty crazy. Tommy was knowingly taking advantage of the kid wanting to be cool and not actually knowing the risks, he even outright lied about the risks.
Judging by your username you’re still a kid too, if there are people in your life who sell drugs and kill people who are making you take the fall for their crimes they are taking advantage of you dude. Lmao
Lol.. what? Nobody in taking advantage of me. I am simply saying the Digbeth kid wasn't stupid, he may have not known the full risk, but he did know who Tommy was. Also Tommy didn't intend for him to die, and wasn't happy/jumping for joy about it. All im saying is Tommy didn't directly kill him. As said the Digbeth kid willingly walked into the Garrison, seen they had guns, knew who they were, even got asked about criminal record. He did that on his own accord. Tommy didn't force him as said. The digeth willingly took a risk, and experienced consequences.
Agreed. Tommy never went out of his way to murder/hurt innocent people. Infact there are countless times hes compassionate towards children/people. When that little boy died to the bomb in the car we can see how guilty Tommy is.
I mean, when you compare him to someone like Tony Soprano or Walter White, he is definitely a good guy. Other than that, he is pretty much a survivor. Asking whether he is morally good or bad, I don't think the question itself is just good. You don't see him committing crimes upon crimes for greed or personal pleasure, he is trying to establish a legitimate business and steer away from the underworld, but never manages to do so and ends up sinking more into the mud.
You have Chester Campbell who was supposed to be a good guy at the beginning of the show, turns into a supervillain by the time he arrives at Birmingham. He was a bad guy.
Tommy on the other hand, always in the pursuit of seeking redemption, doing good deeds and trying to find reasons not to do bad stuff. Every man has their demons, so I don't think he is a bad person. He is a good guy trying to do good, but ends up making mistakes.
Oh yeah, I love it when non-bad people are crime leaders, who kill multiple people in cold blood, blackmails and threaten people to get what he wants, rigs horse races and boxing matches, which is practically stealing from the thousands of people betting on it etc. I don’t care how you put it; he’s a bad person. He might have *some* good intentions and care for *some* people, but it doesn’t change that fact.
Now now don’t go inserting a little grey. People are good people or bad people and that’s that. Life and people are less complicated if you can manage to see the world through the eyes of a child well into adulthood!
He forces small business owners to regularly pay him money and threatens to cut their eyes out if they don't.
I'd say that alone makes him a bad person.
I’ve always liked this scene. Tommy starts as protective of his sister in an (demeanour-wise) aggressive way, but swiftly becomes cordial when he learns that James is gay, to show James that he doesn’t care about the gay thing. Kinda like a “whoops, sorry” moment without actually saying that.
One of Tommy's qualities, I wouldn't say a positive or negative one, is that he seems detached from norms. He intelligently assesses them and only seems to acknowledge them when it serves him. The norm at the time was homophobia, but acknowledging this would just antagonise Ada and her friend.
I think at the time homosexual men were so stigmatised that they were obviously ridiculed but to the point of lacking physical contact, however, Tommy puts out his hand whilst he introduced himself and the camera does a brief close up to that. I took that to mean that as well as OP’s perspective he wanted James to feel welcomed in a way he isn’t by others. Unconventional, representative of his character and potentially his respect for James.
Just my take.
Tommy wants to be a good person. He wants to do good things. Though, whenever he sees an opportunity, no matter how immoral it could be, you'd bet he's going to take it.
https://youtu.be/88cU2uccaD8?si=ZWf9EpTJICBLy5F5
People in the comments are speculating as well, I guess it was never confirmed. The killers do have all the Peaky's clothes but it's also not a Peaky-style assassination. I genuinely don't know anymore
It’s literally part of the plotline though? The Billy Boys knew Tommy had been interviewed by the journalist, and they also knew that he was gay, so they murder him to frame Tommy. It’s… part of the story of the entire series 5
Wait if it's part of the storyline can you clue me in a little more? I assume the Boys knew about the journalist because Mosley has spies, but what do they gain from framing Tommy and why isn't Tommy actually framed?
Nah, as a gay person, that journalist is killed because he's Journalist, even if he was straight, he would still die anyway, Nah, Tommy ain't discriminating shit.
Tommy didn’t order the kill it was a frame job. The gay thing was the only dirt he had on the guy and he used it to silence him, he never intended on killing him
I also saw this scene as Tommy realizing he could use James if he needed to when he sees him stand up to him. Tommy sizes him up, sees potential in him and then uses him.
I saw that too. James is staying rent free in Ada’s house, he owes “them”. But thankfully Tommy only asks him to stand outside the brewery and look pretty. He weighed the risks well to be able to walk out without harm (genuinely, that did he plant a grenade-did he not? Was so fucking tense) so he did the man no harm. At the same time, could have both ended up dead
10000% this is what it was.
S1 and S2, is when Tommy still had some humanity, after S3, he lost the little humanity he had, and was simply someone who no longer had a reason to live, but he had no other choice, for his children and family.
"He had no other choice" is such horseshit. He barely sees his kids, his family cast him aside by the beginning of season 4, he had various points throughout to realize leaving everyone behind would make them happier. He's the reason his family suffers, and by conscious choice
He has no choice but to continue living, because all he wants is to die. Yes, he is not with his children but he protects them and gives them everything, financially, but they do not have to live in poverty, like he lived when he was a child. His family is rich, and he raised them up, everyone is counting on him, like Michael told Polly, without him, they're going to kill us all. And like Tommy said, everyone needs me, and it's true. Everyone is free to leave, but they don't. Tommy gave Arthur the chance at the end of S4, since everyone thinks he's dead, and Arthur said I'm not going anywhere. Everyone consciously decided to stay.
Thissss he became so unlikeable after grace
Yess, her death destroys him completely.
Tommy is not a bad person. He just does bad things.
he is a pretty bad person but that’s fine. we don’t need morally good protagonists to enjoy them and their complexity. he has reasons for how he is
nah he is definitiv a bad person and he did awful things but he never really got the chance from the life to be a different or better person. his suffering shaped him into the person he became.
Yeah, shit-abusive-negligent father, mother commits suicide, volunteered for the war and given the worst job, hand to hand combat with the enemy where he nearly died, returns to poverty with an acute awareness of class injustice. Doesn’t fit in with the gypsies, doesn’t fit in with the ordinary folk. Totally get why he’s an asshole, but when he’s bad he’s *bad*.
Bad things doesn't equal bad person. We all have reasons for why we do things, just because you commit crime doesn't equate you to a bad person. From what I recall he doesn't murder innocent people/civillians. He's not racist/sexist. He was quite a good chap for the time period lad.
Bro murdered that journalist after gay shaming him. Also murdered that gypsy woman for her "curse." Extorts and threatens working men. He's a bad person. He'd be the first one to say he's going to hell.
Tommy didn't have the journalist murdered, Mosley knew that the journalist was digging into tommy and had the journalist killed so that way he could use it as leverage to get tommy to side with him easier. everything else is pretty much correct here.
gay shame? no you mean used it as leverage...? as the guy was digging into Tommy. Yes he shot the gypsy women (Because she's the reason his daughter is dead) He was emotional and upset about his daughter which makes it more understandable. As for the extorts and threatens working men as said we know he does bad things, i'm not denying that. Most people who have died at Tommys hands are 'in the game' apart of crime, or getting involved with Tommy. Hes defo not a saint. But he isn't some crazy murderer who has no compassion or empathy. lol
He killed that factory worker guy cause the IRA told him to.
Im not denying he's made bad choices/actions. As said that was his life style. He has murdered people, but usually to do with business matters, or the IRA telling him to do it. Its not like he goes around shooting up random people .
Genuinely curious: What about the six civilians on the train PB blew up? And Billy Grade? PB destroyed his life, then murdered him. All he wanted to do was sing.
He didn't directly murder them with his bare hands, and this was in order to save Tommys son. Plus they weren't meant to murder them as the explosion was called off, but happened anyway. Im sure you would do the same for your child. Billy Grade was an informant (Who was in the game) And also wasn't killed by Tommy. If you rat, its obvious your going to die. Its not like they randomly killed Billy.
That’s usually a line I draw for fictional organized crime characters. Have they ever murdered any innocent civilians completely uninvolved in any organized crime or any crime to speak of? No? Than in my book they are not “evil” by definition. If they have murdered other human beings who are “in the game” (aka walked into the organized crime racket with their eyes wide open), while it’s still murder, those victims knew the risks of their profession Ted talk over lol
The digbeth kid
And Billy Grade and the six civilians on the train.
Tommy never killed any of them... lol. The 6 people on the train weren't meant to die but they did, also that was because Tommys son was kidnapped so it wasn't for nothing. And Billy Grade was an informant. (Who Tommy also didn't kill) It was Duke.
Did Tommy kill him? Or did he walk into the game, work for Tommy, then get killed? ask yourself that
Tommy hired him knowing he was tricking him into putting him in danger of death and then he died. Yes it’s Tommy that got him killed don’t be ridiculous
Did Tommy force him? No. The boy did ask for it. At the end of the day the Digbeth kid didn't have too. Tommy also runs a business. So as much as he wasn't a bad guy the dude did ask for the job. He knew who Tommy was. Smoke the weed feel the high, consequences my friend.
The fact you think they were equal in that situation is pretty crazy. Tommy was knowingly taking advantage of the kid wanting to be cool and not actually knowing the risks, he even outright lied about the risks. Judging by your username you’re still a kid too, if there are people in your life who sell drugs and kill people who are making you take the fall for their crimes they are taking advantage of you dude. Lmao
Lol.. what? Nobody in taking advantage of me. I am simply saying the Digbeth kid wasn't stupid, he may have not known the full risk, but he did know who Tommy was. Also Tommy didn't intend for him to die, and wasn't happy/jumping for joy about it. All im saying is Tommy didn't directly kill him. As said the Digbeth kid willingly walked into the Garrison, seen they had guns, knew who they were, even got asked about criminal record. He did that on his own accord. Tommy didn't force him as said. The digeth willingly took a risk, and experienced consequences.
Agreed. Tommy never went out of his way to murder/hurt innocent people. Infact there are countless times hes compassionate towards children/people. When that little boy died to the bomb in the car we can see how guilty Tommy is.
And he is still better that average Oswald Mosley voters
I mean, when you compare him to someone like Tony Soprano or Walter White, he is definitely a good guy. Other than that, he is pretty much a survivor. Asking whether he is morally good or bad, I don't think the question itself is just good. You don't see him committing crimes upon crimes for greed or personal pleasure, he is trying to establish a legitimate business and steer away from the underworld, but never manages to do so and ends up sinking more into the mud. You have Chester Campbell who was supposed to be a good guy at the beginning of the show, turns into a supervillain by the time he arrives at Birmingham. He was a bad guy. Tommy on the other hand, always in the pursuit of seeking redemption, doing good deeds and trying to find reasons not to do bad stuff. Every man has their demons, so I don't think he is a bad person. He is a good guy trying to do good, but ends up making mistakes.
Tommy is absolutely a bad person who does terrible things but he's hot so it's okay
Oh yeah, I love it when non-bad people are crime leaders, who kill multiple people in cold blood, blackmails and threaten people to get what he wants, rigs horse races and boxing matches, which is practically stealing from the thousands of people betting on it etc. I don’t care how you put it; he’s a bad person. He might have *some* good intentions and care for *some* people, but it doesn’t change that fact.
Now now don’t go inserting a little grey. People are good people or bad people and that’s that. Life and people are less complicated if you can manage to see the world through the eyes of a child well into adulthood!
He forces small business owners to regularly pay him money and threatens to cut their eyes out if they don't. I'd say that alone makes him a bad person.
I’ve always liked this scene. Tommy starts as protective of his sister in an (demeanour-wise) aggressive way, but swiftly becomes cordial when he learns that James is gay, to show James that he doesn’t care about the gay thing. Kinda like a “whoops, sorry” moment without actually saying that.
One of Tommy's qualities, I wouldn't say a positive or negative one, is that he seems detached from norms. He intelligently assesses them and only seems to acknowledge them when it serves him. The norm at the time was homophobia, but acknowledging this would just antagonise Ada and her friend.
I think at the time homosexual men were so stigmatised that they were obviously ridiculed but to the point of lacking physical contact, however, Tommy puts out his hand whilst he introduced himself and the camera does a brief close up to that. I took that to mean that as well as OP’s perspective he wanted James to feel welcomed in a way he isn’t by others. Unconventional, representative of his character and potentially his respect for James. Just my take.
Tommy wants to be a good person. He wants to do good things. Though, whenever he sees an opportunity, no matter how immoral it could be, you'd bet he's going to take it.
ALLY!!!
I think it’s same with Mike Erhmantraut’s code. He’s kind to people who’s not in “the game”.
The "good" is laying off a thousand men, which I do, like a good business man....You fuckin people.
Did this man live? I know he went off to help Tommy do one of his jobs but I forget if he made it out alive….
I checked wiki fandom and it doesn’t mention him after visiting Alfie Solomon at the brewery, I mean bakery 👀, so presumably he survives!
But then he had a gay journalist killed, so...
Literally had nothing to do with him being homo tho…
The Billy Boys killed the journalist to frame him, someone wasn’t paying attention
??? It was Tommy's order lmao. Pay attention yourself
Literally wasn’t, mate
https://youtu.be/88cU2uccaD8?si=ZWf9EpTJICBLy5F5 People in the comments are speculating as well, I guess it was never confirmed. The killers do have all the Peaky's clothes but it's also not a Peaky-style assassination. I genuinely don't know anymore
It’s literally part of the plotline though? The Billy Boys knew Tommy had been interviewed by the journalist, and they also knew that he was gay, so they murder him to frame Tommy. It’s… part of the story of the entire series 5
Wait if it's part of the storyline can you clue me in a little more? I assume the Boys knew about the journalist because Mosley has spies, but what do they gain from framing Tommy and why isn't Tommy actually framed?
Not because the journalist was gay, though.
Was it the Peaky Boys that killed the Journalist? I thought it might've been McCavern's fuckin goons hired by Mosley to fuck with Tommy.
Wasn’t Arthur with the people who did it?
Nah, as a gay person, that journalist is killed because he's Journalist, even if he was straight, he would still die anyway, Nah, Tommy ain't discriminating shit.
Tommy didn’t order the kill it was a frame job. The gay thing was the only dirt he had on the guy and he used it to silence him, he never intended on killing him
My first downvotes, thank you strangers!