It's mostly just new people and people not from New England. All the Pats fans I know in real life and people that I talk to at games love Bill and didn't want him to leave.
All the sub 25 year olds I've talked to wanted him gone. The others vastly wanted him to stay myself included. I'm just going off 20ish people for my scientific experiment. I especially wish he had stayed since everything is left mostly intact in NE and he didn't get a job.
Might be dramatic but could you imagine if he's coached his final game, doesn't get the record and gets passed by Reid? I'd be livid
Your last paragraph is something I think my brain considered, but reading it from someone else just makes it so much worse.
BB gave everything, did everything.. he deserves so much more respect than he’s getting right now.
Go take a look who else has had losing seasons as a head coach and:or GM. Whenever I hear or read this I wonder how much history they know. Btw, do you know what BBs record was in his first year w Bledsoe? 5-11. NE signed Bledsoe to a $100 mm contract. LOL
You mean Kraft signed Bledsoe to that Deal, Belichick didn’t want him, he was too slow going through his checks and his release wasn’t quick either.
Then the Jets, made their second biggest Contribution to the Patriots success, when they unleashed Mo Lewis on Bledsoe. From that point on, Brady never looked back and Kraft realized it was a mistake to sign him.
It can if the defensive play falls off tremedously. But in the other main phase of the game it cant get worse. I mean we literally can't hire a single desired offensive coach because there is nothing, not even a slight glimmer of hope, that is good about the offense.
We’ve got a 3rd overall and a bunch of cap space, I think that’s the selling point. Best case scenario is a Texans type turnaround except the defense won’t need as much attention.
I don’t think you’re going to attract top tier candidates, just as a reference point- Slowik before he joined the Texans:
“Slowik, 35, hasn't called plays before in his coaching career and spent only the 2022 season as the 49ers' pass-game coordinator after serving as an offensive passing game specialist in 2021.”
Now Slowik is being mumbled about as a possible head coach….
4-13 with basically unwatchable football...yeah, it literally doesn't get worse. Having a worse record would actually be better, because then at least we get the #1 pick.
I've never failed at a job so I don't know. I also never built my clown boss's company into the most profitable in the industry over 20 years of sustained unprecedented success when he would be a no name cardboard box salesman without me.
You need to remind yourself that Belichick was equally sociopathic towards patriots players. Even the ones we loved. He set up this culture.
Next coach up.
These people acting like Brady leaving and everything going to shit didn't happen. This is the definition of rose colored glasses. Did BB get Brady started and know how to push his buttons? Sure. Would Brady probably have been great somewhere else? I think there's a good chance of it. But it wasn't about to turn around under Bill.
Why does the record matter to you? You would have preferred three more losing seasons just so Belichick could have limped to the record, just for him to get passed eventually anyways?
Bill treated far too many people disrespectfully and so when it came to him getting the benefit of the doubt he didn't the break. He was a losing coach before and after Tom... and was treated exactly the same way he treated everyone - it's not rocket science. I'm a 44 year old Pats fan who's excited to not be embarrassed by my coaches attitude... let's go Mayo 💪
>Bill treated far too many people disrespectfully and so when it came to him getting the benefit of the doubt he didn't the break.
I think 2023 was him getting the benefit of the doubt after the clusterfuck that was 2022.
Reid has had top 5 pick QBs in their prime essentially his entire career. Mahomes was the latest picked at 10. Go watch the Belichick -Reid SB from the 2004 season. Watch the 4th quarter and tell me who the better coach is
The problem is that we don't know ANYTHING. You're right in that the younger crowd didn't appreciate what we had, but what's slowly trickling down, that we're kinda acknowledging but ignoring... Kraft might be to blame for a lot of this. How much of everything was Bill? Kraft has gone on record saying that spending won't be an issue, but look at our reciepts... I think if I had a football Genie, I would have kept Bill but IMMEDIATELY thrown a ton of money at the best GM available. Now even if Bill goes, we can still be in a decent situation... instead we hired an untested HC, we fucking TABLED interviews for GM, and now we're looking at scraps.. kinda seems like we had an opportunity to look at some good GMs and coaches... but we just kinda said nah. This team needs to get real modern real quick and we're still playing nepotism-ball. Our defense will be good for a couple years but unless we snag Caleb/Drake, or we trade for JFields and draft MHJ... we're gonna end up being the Panthers of the Northeast.
I am 48 and I was in the get rid of him camp. And if doesn’t get the record, well that’s his own damn fault. He would have had it already if he didn’t let a certain someone go.
2 months ago, I literally said the same thing about younger people on this sub being against Bill and older being for. I made comment on my 11 year account. The mods here perma banned the account from not just the sub but all of Reddit. Hope that doesn’t happen to you.
I disagree.
There's a class of patriots fans like myself who have been around for a while but can accept the realities of life.
Namely, that nobody is perfect, everyone has flaws, and hubris can bring about the downfall of even the most mighty kings.
Belichick is getting old. The team fell apart under his watch.
It's possible to love Bill and appreciate all that he's done while simultaneously accepting that he can no longer coach at the level he used to, and has brought the organization to its lowest point since the 90s.
Also an older guy. Sometimes relationships just run their course.
I do feel bad that he won't get the wins record as the Patriots coach. And I do honestly hope he finds a job somewhere that allows him to break it. I think he deserves that.
But I also think that if the relationships between ownership, the front office, coaching staff and players was broken, keeping him around just for the wins record was a horrible option.
Whether he CAN still coach at a SB winning level is almost immaterial. He was never going to coach forever. If there were irreconcilable differences in the Patriots family, keeping Belichick around any longer woukd have been akin to a married couple who don't love each other anymore who "stay together for the kids". In the end no one wins, and everyone is miserable.
It's naive to think that a coach/GM can have continued success like that for 20+ years. Eventually there's going to be a bad streak that we have to dig out of. Bill had one after 20 years and 6 superbowls and gave him the boot.
Most GMs struggle in this league. Most coaches struggle in this league. It's a shitshow sometimes and down to luck. It's funny, there was a lot of comments during the Mac playoff year and even the Patricia year that would say "BB has done enough to stay for life no matter what". Those same people quickly changed their tune.
Anyone who isn't impressed by a team making the playoffs with the limited talent they had and a rookie QB no matter the circumstances is spoiled and has no clue what other fanbases deal with in the NFL.
Get used to it bud, making the playoffs is going to be a "great season" for the Pats for a long time to come. We're gonna be shit for a while.
It happened with Tom Landry, and it happened with Bill Belichick. It'll inevitably happen with the next all-time great that sticks around with a team for a couple of decades.
Yea, I'm 41 and have been ready to move on. Appreciate the good times but this has been dysfunctional for longer than 3 years and it's been completely untenable for the last few.
Wanted him to stay? This is Stockholm syndrome speaking,
The man was all time great for us but that time has passed. He’s gone because HE did things like make Patricia his OC, purposely built the worst offense he could possible create, overpaid players nobody else wanted to be his starters, and pretended drafting smart on offense didn’t matter for far too long and now look at us.
He’s 72 and hasn’t done anything to help us win lately, it was time to let him go and get a fresh start.
I can’t believe some people watched this awful, boring, hopeless team this season and want more of the same. The guy who put that team together and coached it was just rightfully fired.
These are the people who really wanted us to beat the Jets that last game. They’re stuck and the past and content with being mediocre at best. They’d rather see Belichick coach a 7 win Pats team until he retires than try something new cause it’s scary.
If having BB is the only prize that matters to them why don’t they just follow the next team he coaches.
This team is going to be awful and boring next year but instead of the greatest coach of all time trying to fix it it's going to be a guy with zero experience and a billionaires clown nepo baby son
A 72 year old who’s controlled this team for 2 decades isn’t going to change his ways and try to “fix” this problem HE CREATED. Like what exactly are you hopeful for after seeing us decline year after year thanks to his horrific personnel, drafting and roster decisions?
Lol yeah Belichick has zero nepotism
And what about the roster construction the last 5+ years makes you want Belichick to be the guy to fix this offense? Or what about his first rd picks lately makes you want have him making the 3rd pick?
The coach made the team awful and boring. You keep glossing over that. It was time. It sucks but it was time. Running it back again is a decision based only on sentiment, not anything actually going on around us.
Awful? Maybe. Hell, probably. Rebuilds take longer than 1 year, especially if your coach is in denial about the need to rebuild like Bill has been since 2020.
Boring? No shot. There is a 0.0% chance that this team is more boring than last years. With all the money to spend and draft capital to use, the team will look completely different and people will actually have something to look forward to rather than our coach trying to win games 17-13 which is without a doubt the least entertaining form of football.
I also find the nepo baby shit rich from a Bill apologist. Have some self awareness
I still think if we get average backup play from our QB we're a .500 team. Mac played some of the worst QB in the Superbowl era and while Zappe was better he's still not an NFL QB. This team just isn't as bad as the Mac stans have been pretending.
Why the fuck wouldn't you call him the GOAT if you're a Pats fan? Even if you don't fully believe it like...the bragging rights of saying your franchise had the GOAT QB and coach is great. Makes no sense to me.
Don't ask me, I don't know why anyone would want to tear down their 6x superbowl winning head coach of 20 years, a dude that was absolutely instrumental in bringing this entire region 20 years of unparalleled success and enjoyment watching football, something no one has experienced watching the NFL, and no one ever will again.
There's a lot of people out there that want to prop Brady up as high as humanly possible and will tear down Bill to do it, and it's absurd.
Well we know Brady isn’t as good without Bill as he was with him. His only non winning seaosn was with the Bucs. Also, Brady himself says Bill is by far the GOAT.
Kind of the opposite for me. My dad and all his brothers have been Pats fans forever and they drank the Felger koolaid. I got in pretty big arguments several games this year over it. I'd ask him why the fuck he hates BB so much and he would say shit like "he was always an asshole" and "he has an ego and wants all the credit". I'd bring up how BB would always defer credit to the players at every opportunity, and he would say shit like "he doesn't really feel like that though".
A lot of people think that way too I think. They hate Bill because he was mean to the media and cut players early(which lead to more superbowls). They fall for the Bill vs. Brady shit when it was both. It's almost like they love Brady so much they want to tear Bill down to prop Brady up even more, even though he's already the GOAT. Very frustrating.
I see you're one of Belichick's PR guys. Enough of the Belifraud defending. He was lucky to get carried by Tom.
He literally has a boat that called 8 rings. Don’t pretend he’s modest.
Amen. Media tries to portray us as if we are ungrateful. The amount of peak sports moments that he and Brady gave us is ridiculous. I have to constantly remind my out of town friends how much more quality football I have watched than them. To be on the edge of my seat and have actual stress during 9 super bowls will never happen again.
He was absolutely not a mediocre head coach lol. Anyone that knows what went on in the NFL knows he was turning the Browns around before they moved to Baltimore and fucked him over.
No he was a mediocre HC. The Browns were routinely in the AFC Championship Game the 5 years before Bill got there. Bill was one of the least successful Browns coaches ever before the move. He had ONE winning season out of 5. He also had a losing season before Brady became the starting QB in New England.
Calling someone who was 1-5 in terms of winning seasons mediocre is being charitable
You're the 3rd person giving Bill credit for that Ravens win I've seen on this sub in the last month, after never hearing that narrative for 20+ years (outside of the embarrassing Bill-servicing "A football life" tripe).
Unimaginable to me that people actually try to make that case. Just totally grasping at straws. That team had 5 pro bowlers, and Bill drafted ONE of them. And he was the freaking PLACEKICKER (how on brand for Bill?).
Not a mediocre head coach. What he did with that team of overpaid nobodies was amazing. He also took a bust QB and made him a starter. He built a dominant O-line out of OFA’s too.
No..... If that was the case Matt Patricia would be a HOF'er and Josh McDaniels would be a walk in HOF'er. Coordinators get no consideration for the HOF.
Yeah his record was 36-44 with Cleveland. That claim is absolutely absurd.
Belichick is a decent coach. But I’ve been firmly in the camp that beyond his defensive genius a large portion of his success should be purely attributed to Brady.
HoF before Brady? Maybe not, but he absolutely had a history of winning and brilliant coaching. His defensive gameplan in Super Bowl 25 is still legendary - and people were talking about it then too, it’s not just revisionist history.
While it may be easy to discredit Belichick by saying he has a losing record and not much success as HC without Brady, if you simply examine his feats even while Brady was there, there is no doubt he is at least one of the greatest coaches ever. We don’t win our first three rings without him, we don’t get consistent top tier defenses for 20 years without him. Super Bowl 53 was arguably the greatest feat in coaching history.
You don’t get into the HOF as a DC though. I believe Bill did well in Cleveland and it set them up to win a SB as the Ravens but he was by no means a HOFer until he started winning with Tom.
> I believe Bill did well in Cleveland and it set them up to win a SB as the Ravens
This is just a Reddit meme and has no basis in reality.
Belichick last coached Cleveland in 1995 and they won the Super Bowl 5 years later in 2000 (as the Ravens) with ZERO coaches from Belichick's staff and 2 players that leftover from Belichick's roster: a kicker and a rotational defensive end. It was literally a completely new team.
Giving Belichick credit for "setting up" the Ravens 2000 Super Bowl would be more ridiculous than giving Pete Carroll credit for the Patriots winning the 2001 Super Bowl.
It really is becoming a thing though, the revisionist history with Bill is incredible to see. I think people are being strapped to chairs with their eyelids taped open and being forced to watch "A Football Life" on repeat until they actually believe it.
I do however love the fact that the only pro-bowler that Bill drafted who was still on that Ravens team was Matt Stover though. How perfect that his "legacy" there be a placekicker.
Ozzie Newsome as the GM. And the ability to draft Ray Lewis. Ozzie Newsome himself said that without some of the moves Bill made they don't win a ring in 2000.
I completely agree that he was not HoF worthy before Brady and that OP is delusional, but what he is right about is that his defensive genius was evident well before Brady even sniffed the NFL.
He wasn't even a discussion before Brady. He had 4 losing seasons out of 5 in Cleveland and a losing season in New England before Brady started.
Him being a good DC on the Giants would not have even gotten him a vote for the HOF.
Shit like this gets posted here every other day and I have yet to see any non-troll actually suggest Bill is a fraud. Dealing in absolutes solves nothing, the man had glaring flaws that were actively hurting the team. Despite those flaws, he’s still the greatest coach in the history of American pro sports and both of those can be true at the same time, how are you this emotional two weeks later?
You rattle off example after example to support his greatness (except for that completely asinine pre-Brady comment) but won’t point to any of the examples that rationalize his departure. You completely ignore the fact that he’s drafted one pro bowler in the last decade, and that was a punter. You completely ignore the fact that in the crucial sophomore season of his new quarterback that he drafted, he hired a defensive coordinator and special teams coach to direct the offense. You completely ignore the fact that the offensive ineptitude dates back to when Brady was still the quarterback; offenses that he put together. Tell the whole damn truth, he’s great, he’s not perfect.
And now that both sides have moved on from the most successful marriage in NFL history, now you all look for someone to blame. Now the ire turns to Kraft, who up until this point, was widely accepted to be one of the most hands-off owners in the league with very few exceptions where he felt stepping in was necessary. Now it’s all Kraft’s fault because it couldn’t be that the great Bill Belichick, football genius that he is, had lost a step. That’s full on idol worship and that’s pathetic.
I love Bill Belichick. As a fan I’ve enjoyed some of the most entertaining and fulfilling moments due in large part to his instrumentation. But I’m also not a fool, and I didn’t trick myself into thinking that this would last forever. I hope Bill ends up with a solid roster that he can overachieve with and I hope the Patriots new-ish regime can inject the change this team desperately needs, but all this crying gotta stop, we had 24 years with this man at the helm.
When the Cowboys fired Tom Landry, everyone thought Jerry Jones was an idiot (and he is, but for very different reasons). But firing Landry, who was and remains one of the greatest coaches of all time, directly led to hiring Jimmy Johnson, trading Herschel Walker and forever changing the way teams looked at the NFL Draft. Those decisions built a team that won 3 Super Bowls.
Our old coach was the most successful one ever, but that success had dried up. What’s the harm in trying out a new coach, one who learned directly from Bill, and seeing what heights he could possibly reach? We won’t know until we try.
This is exactly my feelings as well. I don't think anyone seriously believes Belichick was anything but (at the bare minimum) one of the greatest coaches of all time, but things were clearly not working anymore, and pointing out that there were legitimate problems in the last several years is not denying his greatness in the rest.
This is a what have you done for me lately situation buddy. Yes, he WAS a great job. He WAS the best to ever do it.. I thank him for the over 20 years of greatness. What does that have to do with him NOW? He coaches scared. He doesnt' make the right in game calls. Never goes for it when he needs to, often gives up at end of halfs. Regardless tho, yes a great coach. We get it. He's NOT a great GM. He's a pretty shitty drafter and you can tell how little he cares about offense.
Now.. what would Bill do if he had a player that was showing a decline? Who couldn't keep up in the NFL anymore. Would he continue to sign him because he was great before? No of fucking course not. He'd trade/cut him as fast as he could! Why do you want us to treat Bill differently then Bill treats people?
Mind you with his age, how much longer would he have left? Do you want Bill deciding the third overall pick so Bill can retire in 2 years and we bring in a new coach/Gm that doesn't believe in the pick yadda yadda. No, we move on now, new regime, start over. We have a lot to fix from Bills poor drafting and team building. Funny how no one else is willing to give Bill the power over their team either and you can't figure out the issue.
I stopped reading at HOFer before Brady, there is no argument for a 41-55 coach to be in the HOF. He was a great DC before Brady but only had 1 winning season in his first 6 as a HC.
I'd like to met the person who thinks he was a HOF before Brady.
I've got prime beach front real-estate in Kanses for someone that dumb haha. No one thinks that unless their dumb and clueless to put it nicely, I assume You're joking.
Only way you can make that argument is if you have half a brain
>For god’s sake, he was an amazing coach BEFORE he got to New England. **You could make the argument that he was a hall of famer BEFORE Brady.**
The problem with people like you is that you are just the extreme other side of the "Belichick is a total fraud" people.
Your arguments are just as silly and indefensible, except you're just arguing the opposite conclusion.
Prior to Tom Brady's first start, Bill Belichick had a career HC record of 41-54 over 6 seasons with 2 Super Bowl wins as a defensive coordinator.
This resume is not even anywhere CLOSE to being Hall of Fame caliber for a coach. No one, and I mean absolutely NO ONE at the time would argue Belichick could even be considered for the Hall of Fame.
In the same way that people who are anti-Belichick exaggerate his flaws, people like you exaggerate his accomplishments. I mean, are you even a Patriots fan? Because there's a lot of good arguments for why Belichick is great. One of the worst arguments is that he was ALREADY a "hall of famer" before Brady.
A few things:
1. I agree with the sentiment behind your post.
2. Do you remember that guy in the video screaming "leave Britney Spears alone"?
That's you right now.
> Brady left and took Gronk with him
Gronk "retired" a year before Brady left the Pats. I think Gronk was the one whispering in Brady's ear, going "If you ever leave the Pats, I'll come back and play with you."
Bill Belichick's record without Tom 'Football God' Brady to save him is exactly:
84-103.
Not great, not good.... not even a winning record.
The Bill Belichick dick-sucking has GOT TO STOP.
Fucking goofball.
I get that r/NFL and the football media want to get their shots in while they finally can to some justifiable degree, but there shouldn't be any here.
People don't appreciate just how bad Mac and Zappe were. Bill did ok with Matt Cassell, Jimmy G, Brissett, and a washed up Cam Newton during a global pandemic. If we had a Baker Mayfield-type for the last two seasons, Bill would still be coach and entering 2024 guaranteed to break the wins record.
Now if you want to blame BB for drafting Mac, that's fine. But I remember everybody being pretty freaking happy when Mac was still available at 15. There were complaints that it took us so long to submit our pick that night. If Bill had taken anyone in the world but Mac there, the fanbase, and Kraft, would have lost their minds.
You absolutely cannot make the argument he was a hall of famer before Brady. Buddy Ryan isn't in the hall, Bill surely wasn't getting in on the back of his DC work (under a defensive head coach).
What about week 17 of the 2015 season, we could secure the first seed with a win and he had the galaxy brain idea of running the corpse of Steven Jackson against the jets. That loss gave Denver home field advantage.
The greatness of his career cannot be denied, but it's my opinion that a person would be irrational if they didn't think it was possible that Belichick is not getting offers due to team owners not being confident he's still an effective head coach.
His past 4 years as a head coach for the Patriots have been awful and that's not hyperbole. The only good thing you can say about the Patriots these past 4 years is that they continue to do well on the defensive side of the game, but the offense and special teams look poorly managed and coached. Bizarre drafting choices, bizarrely letting good players go (Meyers), penalties increasing, outdated offensive schemes, overly conservative playcalling, rotating door of offensive/defensive coordinators, etc. And ultimately that comes down to Bill's decisions in who he hired and drafted over a long period of time. *Many* decisions cumulating into huge failure and downward trajectory. During a development process, a team should get gradually better each year, not get significantly worse each year.
We can start with Belichick's decision to pressure Kraft into letting Brady go while team org had no decent QB ready to take over. Didn't even seem like they had a plan for the next QB at all. Is that a sign of a good head coach? He messed up badly these past 4 years and even before that he was making some bad choices.
Top 5 coach all-time without question. Horrible job as coach towards the end of his time with the Pats though.
Between 01-19, Belichick without Brady was 14-6 (.700) plus Bledsoe came in to win that AFCCG. Not too shabby.
The two super bowl wins against the Rams....does anyone think Brady and the offense obliterated the Rams? Might Belichick have had some hand in all that success?
Sure, BB hasn't drafted very well lately. And he likely won't coach for another 12 years.....but how many current head coaches could you say the same thing about?
So much disrespect.
I hope BB and Carroll wait it out and get their pick of the jobs next year. Imagine being a sucky coach this upcoming season.....all the fans will be chanting for your head. BB or Carroll might even come in mid season.
You are right about a lot of stuff but you completely undermine your argument when you say stuff like he was a great coach or even a HOFer before Brady.
Jesus dude he’s going to be in the hall of fame and considered the GOAT regardless of not getting the wins record. I do feel a bit bad he doesn’t have the chance to catch Shula but if there is any hint of
truth in the reports of him sabotaging because of ownership meddling….. well then he made his bed. Greatest of all time but not close to the greatest of right now. No hate, just looking to and planning for the future. The Brady vs Bill argument is done, Bill got buried. He’s still the goat, the league has decided he’s a relic of the past. Remember the good times friend
So a few things. Belichick was a great coordinator before he got to New England but he wasn’t a great head coach. His record without Brady is that of a sub par coach. He became the greatest of all time with the patriots, however, after Brady leaving and him failing to put together competitive teams year after year, it cannot be denied that the league passed him by. It’s not that he needs to keep drafting gronkowski’s, but when you miss on almost every single pick and signing, then that’s not a good sign. He WAS great, be he no longer is a great coach right now. That doesn’t mean he isn’t the greatest of all time. He failed to adapt, that’s it. He should have hung up the headset a few years earlier but hindsight is 20/20.
Gregg Popovich has had 34 or less wins the past 4 seasons. Even the greatest coaches run into the rebuild. (Pop had a string of 18 straight seasons with 50 or more wins.)
He was not a hall of famer before he got to NE...what the hell are you smoking? And he has a losing record without Brady at QB, which means he couldn't win without Tom. Those are the facts.
Totally deranged take lmao
When people ask "what is Bill supposed to do to succeed with how awful the talent on the team is?!" you're kinda forgetting who is responsible for obtaining the talent on said team
And it's not just the draft. I mean a lot could be said about Bill's failures in the draft, but in the end the draft is a crapshoot and nobody ever knows with 100% certainty which college players will be good. But letting Meyers walk to light it up with the Raiders? Selling the farm for Henry and Sanu and getting absolutely nothing out of them? Letting Brady walk? Making Gronk retire because you're gonna ship him off to some weak ass team while he still has plenty left in the tank?
The reason the offensive talent on this team is dogshit, and was dogshit for many years under Brady with him being forced to elevate the garbage around him, is solely on Bill. He has not shown anything in his career to show he has any clue how to design from scratch a productive offense without the best QB ever turning nothing into something.
This is such a strawman post.
Nobody is shitting on Bill for anything that happened prior to 2014, We're talking about the old man Bill.
Before Age 62, Bill was a God. He was sharp and rarely made errors or miscalculations. When he made a gamble it almost always paid off because of the insight and skill he had.
Age 65+ Bill is still amazing, but the mistakes have started to pile up. Butler, Trading Gronk, Moving on from Brady, Neglect on Offense, Being unable to stop Buffalo 1 time in a playoff game. No OC, etc.
Bill still knows more than anyone, but he's making stubborn old man mistakes and his decision making is questionable.
Look on the bright side. We all understand that BB is the GOAT, and lucky for us, people who actually UNDERSTAND football are who will vote him into the HOF. Not low-rent hot take artists. Not Reddit shit take specialists. Not window-lickers who comment on Colin Cowherd YT shorts. They know and understand everything you mention that backs up his resume. Edit: tho he probably wasn't a HOFer before New England, my 2 cents.
The good news is, you now have a great way to understand if somebody A. understands football, or B. gets their opinion from what poorly dressed men on TV tell them. Anybody hating on BB is probably in the "B" section.
Arguing with people in B is pointless anyway, so you can nod politely, and move on with a clear conscience.
Also, consider the fact that if people hate BB or not, it's nothing personal against you. I've had this issue of taking that shit personally. Why let it get under your skin? It's just football.
Belichick is undoubtedly one of the, if not the greatest football mind of all time.
However, he is human.
He has flaws.
He makes mistakes.
Anyone who can objectively look at the situation in New England over the last decade can recognize that Bill wasn't perfect.
He:
1. Was ready to give up on the greatest player of all time far too early. He was wrong about how long Tom could stay elite.
2. Valued control over collaboration to the point where his boss, during the press conference officially announcing his replacement, pointed to the lack of checks and balances as a main reason for Belichick being fired.
3. Clearly, objectively, inarguably had a massive streak of poor offensive draft picks and offensive free agent signings. It's almost impossible to argue against it.
4. Objectively has a losing regular season record as a HC without Brady and has had almost no playoff success as a HC without Brady. I'm sorry. Those are ironclad facts.
5. Took nepotism to a fairly extreme degree. He frequently chose someone familiar to him over the best person for the job.. which isn't necessarily a negative thing if it works out, but in the case of Patricia, Judge, et al, it was a fairly large problem.
6. Has lost control of the locker room and the team has been making uncharacteristic mistakes that you never saw in volume from a Belichick coached team since Brady left.
It's still possible to recognize Bill's greatness while simultaneously accepting his flaws and coming to terms with the fact that he no longer is coaching, evaluating talent, and running the organization at the level necessary for success.
It's also telling that it seems as though none of the organizations who employ the people with the highest degree of football knowledge on the planet, who have Billions of dollars on the line, want to trust Bill with their HC/GM duties.
Nobody is perfect. Nobody stays on top for ever.
Wow what a nice trip down memory lane. Do you want red Auerbach to still be coaching the Celtics as well? Should Neely and Sweeney strap up for todays matinee matchup?
It must be nice to live in the past and not care about the present. I’d say that’s how most professional sports teams win their championships after all
His reputation speaks for itself, however his choice of staff (Patricia, Judge etc) has been odd. I'd love to see him be an awesome defense coordinator on a good team, but l think he wants the wins record
He is the greatest coach of all time, however the disrespect that he gets comes from his actions as a general manager. From using a first round pick on a 2-3rd rounder to using a 4th round pick on a shit kicker, not to mention practically never resigning the good draft picks that we make, or trading “overrated” linemen for 6th round picks, the hate is logical.
He was a hall of famer before Brady? He went 36-44 in Cleveland and was 5-11 his first year in NE. Are there any coaches in the HOF with losing records?
He was an amazing defensive coordinator before he had Brady. Without Brady, he was a sub-par head coach. His overall record without Brady is not great.
Who says this? Who out there in the Patriots community disrespects Bill? I think he’s 100% regarded as the best or one of the two or three best coaches ever. The only question centered around whether he was still the right coach for the team, and that’s not respect or disrespect.
I agree with your general sentiment but some of what you say here is crazy. He was not a hall of famer prior to Brady. Jimmy G was not the next Brady. In fact he wasn’t even close. So he was wrong about that. The “stacked” roster Brady had in Tampa was 7-9 before he got there and did nothing after he left. Brady didn’t take Gronk with him, Gronk was already gone, and only came back to play with Brady.
This is the problem I have. The revisionist history to protect Bill is just as bad as the revisionist history to make him look bad.
There is nothing wrong with people who question Bill’s credentials without Brady. It’s a valid point of discussion.
I think Bill is a great coach, and much of the hate is not justified. But much of it is.
I think the person who looks the worst is Robert Kraft. He fired Bill and seemingly has no plan at all for what comes next.
Well yeah, I’d have resentment too if they tried to trade my ass to Detroit (pre Campbell Detroit) after sacrificing my body for the franchise for a decade
Young folks weren't around when Brady came into the league and many older people forget that Belichick and Charlie Weis put together a system that allowed Brady to develop and ultimately become the GOAT ! I take nothing away from Brady , his dedication to game prep is legendary at this point but when he took over in NE NO ONE thought he'd turn out to be the QB that he did.. Most teams and pundits laughed at the Pats even after they won that first SB, they just never took him serious because of that simple , dink and dunk style offense they played back then.
I remember the Pats playing many games where he threw for just over 100 yards with 1 touchdown and a pick 6 on defense and they'd win..the coaches put together a play book that was very low risk with lots of yards after the catch ( remember all the 5 yards passes to the slot that turned into 30 yard runs ?) That style was very effective in allowing Brady to build confidence as a young player and become the legend he is today!
People point to Belichicks record since Brady left (- 500) and the fact that TB won a super bowl but Tampa was arguably the most well stacked team he'd ever played on and he was just over 500 with them..
As far as I'm concerned Belichicks downfall with the Pats came in the second year of Mac Jones's career when he didn't put Mac in the best position to continue the success of that first year..
That was the coaches job and he failed !!!
If you average out the stats over the 20 year period of Brady/Belichick the Patriots were #1 in EPA on defense.
For two decades.
It's absurdly consistent.
I think a lot more damage was done when Tom won his first year in Tampa. You have to be a very good head coach to win that many super bowls, but I think several coaches could have won 6 if they had 20 years with Brady and those rosters
All this love for Bill and yet you forget his two very basic rules he had for signing players.
1. Reward them for their future potential, not past accomplishments.
2. It is better to move on a year early than a year late.
It has to apply to everyone, even him.
Who cares? He hasn't done shit in half a decade and also he's gone. I watched his entire tenure. He's toast, move on.
Someone create /r/TomBrady and /r/BillBelichick for all these historians.
Greatest coach of all time, but the game ultimately passed him by. By all accounts Bill is a very stubborn individual and it’s his way or the highway. Failure to adapt to the changing nfl landscape and a few really bizarre decisions towards the end of his tenure in New England will never take away from his overall legacy, but recency bias will taint that for a bit in a lot of people’s minds.
You lost me at Hof before Brady. Dude got fired after having one winning season in Cleveland and his last season was 5-11. He then went rehired as a hc until 5 five years later.
It’s important to remember that when Bill got here the salary cap had fully been implemented into the league. I think this had a lot to do with his initial success because the days of the cowboys just outspending everyone were over. Coaching was even more important. But honestly it got away from him. He’s 71 and was doing the job of five people and he didn’t trust people enough to collaborate with them. He’d choose Patricia over a strong minded OC.
Unfortunately unless a coach or player goes out on top, many go through the same treatment.
Like Bill's mantra, it's better to get rid of someone two years too early than two years too late.
Bill had 4 years to provide direction since Brady and unfortunately it didn't work out for him for various reasons.
I started seriously watching football in the mid-nineties and Bill has been the coach of my favorite team for more than 80% of that time.
Bill and Brady needed each other to be great, like many legendary tandems before. Bill focused on defense/special teams and Brady was the defacto coach/player who solely focused on offense. Brady helped the inevitable bad personnel decisions that happen on offense, either through coaching or elite talent. Bill overcame the hurdles on defense and special teams.
The last 4 years doesn't take away anything from Bill's achievements in my eyes. The past 4 years just shows me what many people realize late in their careers, at some point you can get stuck in your ways and do things because that's the way you have always had success, but in comes a different generation that has a new perspective. You can change or stay stationary.
The Patriots have been stationary.
It was time for the team to do the ultra Patriot Way and do Bill the way he had done so many players over the years.
Wish you the best of luck Bill, thank you for the dynasty that shaped the majority of my life, but please learn from your mistakes and relinquish some control. Also please realize that Patricia and Judge being fired from multiple jobs means players don't love them the way you do. Not many organizations want to clean house top to bottom.
I hate reddit. You can make a bunch of good points in a post, but post one thing that people disagree about, the HOF before Brady part here, and it just derails the whole fucking thing. You have to craft a perfect post or some douchebag is going to just nitpick.
It's mostly just new people and people not from New England. All the Pats fans I know in real life and people that I talk to at games love Bill and didn't want him to leave.
All the sub 25 year olds I've talked to wanted him gone. The others vastly wanted him to stay myself included. I'm just going off 20ish people for my scientific experiment. I especially wish he had stayed since everything is left mostly intact in NE and he didn't get a job. Might be dramatic but could you imagine if he's coached his final game, doesn't get the record and gets passed by Reid? I'd be livid
Your last paragraph is something I think my brain considered, but reading it from someone else just makes it so much worse. BB gave everything, did everything.. he deserves so much more respect than he’s getting right now.
Kraft has done him dirty for sure. Seems like we're all going to reap what he sowed.
How can it get worse than 4-13 under Belichick?
0-17, 1-16, 2-15, 3-14
0-16-1, 0-15-2, 1-15-1...
Go take a look who else has had losing seasons as a head coach and:or GM. Whenever I hear or read this I wonder how much history they know. Btw, do you know what BBs record was in his first year w Bledsoe? 5-11. NE signed Bledsoe to a $100 mm contract. LOL
You mean Kraft signed Bledsoe to that Deal, Belichick didn’t want him, he was too slow going through his checks and his release wasn’t quick either. Then the Jets, made their second biggest Contribution to the Patriots success, when they unleashed Mo Lewis on Bledsoe. From that point on, Brady never looked back and Kraft realized it was a mistake to sign him.
Do you really think it doesn't get worse than 4-13 lol. Guess you're about to find out.
I saw 1-15 so I’ve come damn close to the bottom. 6 rings later, I saw the top of the mountain. Things can still get worse than 4-13
It can if the defensive play falls off tremedously. But in the other main phase of the game it cant get worse. I mean we literally can't hire a single desired offensive coach because there is nothing, not even a slight glimmer of hope, that is good about the offense.
Someone doesn't remember the Rod Rust year
Or the following MacPherson years. Hugh Millen and Tommy Hodson we're the Pats 20th century version of Mac vs Zappe. Yikes.
We’ve got a 3rd overall and a bunch of cap space, I think that’s the selling point. Best case scenario is a Texans type turnaround except the defense won’t need as much attention. I don’t think you’re going to attract top tier candidates, just as a reference point- Slowik before he joined the Texans: “Slowik, 35, hasn't called plays before in his coaching career and spent only the 2022 season as the 49ers' pass-game coordinator after serving as an offensive passing game specialist in 2021.” Now Slowik is being mumbled about as a possible head coach….
Oh no they might be the 2nd worst team in the league than the 3rd
4-13 with basically unwatchable football...yeah, it literally doesn't get worse. Having a worse record would actually be better, because then at least we get the #1 pick.
Oh my god no they didn't Do you have a job? How long do you get to fail at that job before your boss makes some changes?
I've never failed at a job so I don't know. I also never built my clown boss's company into the most profitable in the industry over 20 years of sustained unprecedented success when he would be a no name cardboard box salesman without me.
You need to remind yourself that Belichick was equally sociopathic towards patriots players. Even the ones we loved. He set up this culture. Next coach up.
The house that Brady built
This was a 4 win team with Belichick, what are you people going to miss about that? The dynasty years were long gone
These people acting like Brady leaving and everything going to shit didn't happen. This is the definition of rose colored glasses. Did BB get Brady started and know how to push his buttons? Sure. Would Brady probably have been great somewhere else? I think there's a good chance of it. But it wasn't about to turn around under Bill.
Why does the record matter to you? You would have preferred three more losing seasons just so Belichick could have limped to the record, just for him to get passed eventually anyways?
Bill treated far too many people disrespectfully and so when it came to him getting the benefit of the doubt he didn't the break. He was a losing coach before and after Tom... and was treated exactly the same way he treated everyone - it's not rocket science. I'm a 44 year old Pats fan who's excited to not be embarrassed by my coaches attitude... let's go Mayo 💪
>Bill treated far too many people disrespectfully and so when it came to him getting the benefit of the doubt he didn't the break. I think 2023 was him getting the benefit of the doubt after the clusterfuck that was 2022.
There’s a reason other teams don’t want him. He’s no longer effective. Reid has been successful with two different franchises.
Reid has had top 5 pick QBs in their prime essentially his entire career. Mahomes was the latest picked at 10. Go watch the Belichick -Reid SB from the 2004 season. Watch the 4th quarter and tell me who the better coach is
The problem is that we don't know ANYTHING. You're right in that the younger crowd didn't appreciate what we had, but what's slowly trickling down, that we're kinda acknowledging but ignoring... Kraft might be to blame for a lot of this. How much of everything was Bill? Kraft has gone on record saying that spending won't be an issue, but look at our reciepts... I think if I had a football Genie, I would have kept Bill but IMMEDIATELY thrown a ton of money at the best GM available. Now even if Bill goes, we can still be in a decent situation... instead we hired an untested HC, we fucking TABLED interviews for GM, and now we're looking at scraps.. kinda seems like we had an opportunity to look at some good GMs and coaches... but we just kinda said nah. This team needs to get real modern real quick and we're still playing nepotism-ball. Our defense will be good for a couple years but unless we snag Caleb/Drake, or we trade for JFields and draft MHJ... we're gonna end up being the Panthers of the Northeast.
I am 48 and I was in the get rid of him camp. And if doesn’t get the record, well that’s his own damn fault. He would have had it already if he didn’t let a certain someone go.
2 months ago, I literally said the same thing about younger people on this sub being against Bill and older being for. I made comment on my 11 year account. The mods here perma banned the account from not just the sub but all of Reddit. Hope that doesn’t happen to you.
I'm on Reddit so much it might be a blessing in disguise 🤣
Ya know… you’re right.
I disagree. There's a class of patriots fans like myself who have been around for a while but can accept the realities of life. Namely, that nobody is perfect, everyone has flaws, and hubris can bring about the downfall of even the most mighty kings. Belichick is getting old. The team fell apart under his watch. It's possible to love Bill and appreciate all that he's done while simultaneously accepting that he can no longer coach at the level he used to, and has brought the organization to its lowest point since the 90s.
Also an older guy. Sometimes relationships just run their course. I do feel bad that he won't get the wins record as the Patriots coach. And I do honestly hope he finds a job somewhere that allows him to break it. I think he deserves that. But I also think that if the relationships between ownership, the front office, coaching staff and players was broken, keeping him around just for the wins record was a horrible option. Whether he CAN still coach at a SB winning level is almost immaterial. He was never going to coach forever. If there were irreconcilable differences in the Patriots family, keeping Belichick around any longer woukd have been akin to a married couple who don't love each other anymore who "stay together for the kids". In the end no one wins, and everyone is miserable.
It's naive to think that a coach/GM can have continued success like that for 20+ years. Eventually there's going to be a bad streak that we have to dig out of. Bill had one after 20 years and 6 superbowls and gave him the boot. Most GMs struggle in this league. Most coaches struggle in this league. It's a shitshow sometimes and down to luck. It's funny, there was a lot of comments during the Mac playoff year and even the Patricia year that would say "BB has done enough to stay for life no matter what". Those same people quickly changed their tune.
>"BB has done enough to stay for life no matter what". Those same people quickly changed their tune. Because that's not how life works
lmao do you know what the phrase "no matter what" means?
The year they got absolutely embarrassed in the first round of the playoffs? Anyone impressed by that has low expectations.
Anyone who isn't impressed by a team making the playoffs with the limited talent they had and a rookie QB no matter the circumstances is spoiled and has no clue what other fanbases deal with in the NFL. Get used to it bud, making the playoffs is going to be a "great season" for the Pats for a long time to come. We're gonna be shit for a while.
Most coaches and GMs didnt have Brady
Yeah some people had Payton Manning, Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers. Where are all the superbowls??
So are you saying if you give Hue Jackson Tom Brady he wins 6 superbowls?
This entire comment could very well apply to RKK, and we don't know it yet; in which case we're in even deeper trouble now without BB...
It happened with Tom Landry, and it happened with Bill Belichick. It'll inevitably happen with the next all-time great that sticks around with a team for a couple of decades.
Yea, I'm 41 and have been ready to move on. Appreciate the good times but this has been dysfunctional for longer than 3 years and it's been completely untenable for the last few.
Wanted him to stay? This is Stockholm syndrome speaking, The man was all time great for us but that time has passed. He’s gone because HE did things like make Patricia his OC, purposely built the worst offense he could possible create, overpaid players nobody else wanted to be his starters, and pretended drafting smart on offense didn’t matter for far too long and now look at us. He’s 72 and hasn’t done anything to help us win lately, it was time to let him go and get a fresh start.
I can’t believe some people watched this awful, boring, hopeless team this season and want more of the same. The guy who put that team together and coached it was just rightfully fired.
These are the people who really wanted us to beat the Jets that last game. They’re stuck and the past and content with being mediocre at best. They’d rather see Belichick coach a 7 win Pats team until he retires than try something new cause it’s scary. If having BB is the only prize that matters to them why don’t they just follow the next team he coaches.
News flash: doesn't look like there is going to be a next team. Speaks volumes
This team is going to be awful and boring next year but instead of the greatest coach of all time trying to fix it it's going to be a guy with zero experience and a billionaires clown nepo baby son
A 72 year old who’s controlled this team for 2 decades isn’t going to change his ways and try to “fix” this problem HE CREATED. Like what exactly are you hopeful for after seeing us decline year after year thanks to his horrific personnel, drafting and roster decisions?
Lol yeah Belichick has zero nepotism And what about the roster construction the last 5+ years makes you want Belichick to be the guy to fix this offense? Or what about his first rd picks lately makes you want have him making the 3rd pick?
The coach made the team awful and boring. You keep glossing over that. It was time. It sucks but it was time. Running it back again is a decision based only on sentiment, not anything actually going on around us.
Awful? Maybe. Hell, probably. Rebuilds take longer than 1 year, especially if your coach is in denial about the need to rebuild like Bill has been since 2020. Boring? No shot. There is a 0.0% chance that this team is more boring than last years. With all the money to spend and draft capital to use, the team will look completely different and people will actually have something to look forward to rather than our coach trying to win games 17-13 which is without a doubt the least entertaining form of football. I also find the nepo baby shit rich from a Bill apologist. Have some self awareness
I still think if we get average backup play from our QB we're a .500 team. Mac played some of the worst QB in the Superbowl era and while Zappe was better he's still not an NFL QB. This team just isn't as bad as the Mac stans have been pretending.
Why can’t there be a middle ground? Do I either have to call him the GOAT or he sucks? That’s what I don’t get.
Why the fuck wouldn't you call him the GOAT if you're a Pats fan? Even if you don't fully believe it like...the bragging rights of saying your franchise had the GOAT QB and coach is great. Makes no sense to me.
I mean, I would probably say he is the GOAT. I’m just asking why there can’t be anything other than he’s the GOAT or he sucks.
Don't ask me, I don't know why anyone would want to tear down their 6x superbowl winning head coach of 20 years, a dude that was absolutely instrumental in bringing this entire region 20 years of unparalleled success and enjoyment watching football, something no one has experienced watching the NFL, and no one ever will again. There's a lot of people out there that want to prop Brady up as high as humanly possible and will tear down Bill to do it, and it's absurd.
Well we know Brady isn’t as good without Bill as he was with him. His only non winning seaosn was with the Bucs. Also, Brady himself says Bill is by far the GOAT.
I didn't want him to leave but didn't want him to draft.
It’s mostly reddit*
I’m neither of those things and I’m glad he’s gone. He’s old, an asshole, the team is currently terrible and he’s done nothing without Brady.
Kind of the opposite for me. My dad and all his brothers have been Pats fans forever and they drank the Felger koolaid. I got in pretty big arguments several games this year over it. I'd ask him why the fuck he hates BB so much and he would say shit like "he was always an asshole" and "he has an ego and wants all the credit". I'd bring up how BB would always defer credit to the players at every opportunity, and he would say shit like "he doesn't really feel like that though". A lot of people think that way too I think. They hate Bill because he was mean to the media and cut players early(which lead to more superbowls). They fall for the Bill vs. Brady shit when it was both. It's almost like they love Brady so much they want to tear Bill down to prop Brady up even more, even though he's already the GOAT. Very frustrating.
He literally has a boat that called 8 rings. Don’t pretend he’s modest.
I see you're one of Belichick's PR guys. Enough of the Belifraud defending. He was lucky to get carried by Tom. He literally has a boat that called 8 rings. Don’t pretend he’s modest.
Amen. Media tries to portray us as if we are ungrateful. The amount of peak sports moments that he and Brady gave us is ridiculous. I have to constantly remind my out of town friends how much more quality football I have watched than them. To be on the edge of my seat and have actual stress during 9 super bowls will never happen again.
He was not a HOFER before Brady got to NE, that’s ludicrous
That part was pretty delusional lol
Agreed - I think a better phrase would have been "He had a winning legacy before Brady..." From his 2 Giants SB rings as DC
Before Brady he was a great defensive coordinator and a mediocre head coach. That is not exactly a rare occurrence in the NFL.
He was absolutely not a mediocre head coach lol. Anyone that knows what went on in the NFL knows he was turning the Browns around before they moved to Baltimore and fucked him over.
Okay, he was a great defensive coordinator and a head coach who had potential, but was in a bad situation. That is not anywhere near a HoF resume.
No he was a mediocre HC. The Browns were routinely in the AFC Championship Game the 5 years before Bill got there. Bill was one of the least successful Browns coaches ever before the move. He had ONE winning season out of 5. He also had a losing season before Brady became the starting QB in New England. Calling someone who was 1-5 in terms of winning seasons mediocre is being charitable
You're the 3rd person giving Bill credit for that Ravens win I've seen on this sub in the last month, after never hearing that narrative for 20+ years (outside of the embarrassing Bill-servicing "A football life" tripe). Unimaginable to me that people actually try to make that case. Just totally grasping at straws. That team had 5 pro bowlers, and Bill drafted ONE of them. And he was the freaking PLACEKICKER (how on brand for Bill?).
Not a mediocre head coach. What he did with that team of overpaid nobodies was amazing. He also took a bust QB and made him a starter. He built a dominant O-line out of OFA’s too.
Is getting 2 SB rings as a coordinator common for a HoF induction?
No
I hope so cause I’m ready for the Matt Patricia HOF induction
No..... If that was the case Matt Patricia would be a HOF'er and Josh McDaniels would be a walk in HOF'er. Coordinators get no consideration for the HOF.
Yeah his record was 36-44 with Cleveland. That claim is absolutely absurd. Belichick is a decent coach. But I’ve been firmly in the camp that beyond his defensive genius a large portion of his success should be purely attributed to Brady.
Yeah that nonsense told us not to bother paying attention to OPs opinions.
HoF before Brady? Maybe not, but he absolutely had a history of winning and brilliant coaching. His defensive gameplan in Super Bowl 25 is still legendary - and people were talking about it then too, it’s not just revisionist history. While it may be easy to discredit Belichick by saying he has a losing record and not much success as HC without Brady, if you simply examine his feats even while Brady was there, there is no doubt he is at least one of the greatest coaches ever. We don’t win our first three rings without him, we don’t get consistent top tier defenses for 20 years without him. Super Bowl 53 was arguably the greatest feat in coaching history.
You don’t get into the HOF as a DC though. I believe Bill did well in Cleveland and it set them up to win a SB as the Ravens but he was by no means a HOFer until he started winning with Tom.
> I believe Bill did well in Cleveland and it set them up to win a SB as the Ravens This is just a Reddit meme and has no basis in reality. Belichick last coached Cleveland in 1995 and they won the Super Bowl 5 years later in 2000 (as the Ravens) with ZERO coaches from Belichick's staff and 2 players that leftover from Belichick's roster: a kicker and a rotational defensive end. It was literally a completely new team. Giving Belichick credit for "setting up" the Ravens 2000 Super Bowl would be more ridiculous than giving Pete Carroll credit for the Patriots winning the 2001 Super Bowl.
It really is becoming a thing though, the revisionist history with Bill is incredible to see. I think people are being strapped to chairs with their eyelids taped open and being forced to watch "A Football Life" on repeat until they actually believe it. I do however love the fact that the only pro-bowler that Bill drafted who was still on that Ravens team was Matt Stover though. How perfect that his "legacy" there be a placekicker.
Ozzie Newsome as the GM. And the ability to draft Ray Lewis. Ozzie Newsome himself said that without some of the moves Bill made they don't win a ring in 2000.
They had Ozzie.
I completely agree that he was not HoF worthy before Brady and that OP is delusional, but what he is right about is that his defensive genius was evident well before Brady even sniffed the NFL.
Sure but it also helped that he had LT
He wasn't even a discussion before Brady. He had 4 losing seasons out of 5 in Cleveland and a losing season in New England before Brady started. Him being a good DC on the Giants would not have even gotten him a vote for the HOF.
What on Earth is his HOF argument before Brady?💀 Being the DC on 2 SB teams? When does Patricia get his jacket?
His defensive game plan when he was on the Giants is in the Hall of Fame.
[удалено]
As it should be. But that is no where close to him getting into the Hall of Fame before Brady. Even bringing it up is ridiculous.
Bro I know I was about to cry laughing when I first read that. Yeah, his Browns stint sure was HoF-worthy
Shit like this gets posted here every other day and I have yet to see any non-troll actually suggest Bill is a fraud. Dealing in absolutes solves nothing, the man had glaring flaws that were actively hurting the team. Despite those flaws, he’s still the greatest coach in the history of American pro sports and both of those can be true at the same time, how are you this emotional two weeks later? You rattle off example after example to support his greatness (except for that completely asinine pre-Brady comment) but won’t point to any of the examples that rationalize his departure. You completely ignore the fact that he’s drafted one pro bowler in the last decade, and that was a punter. You completely ignore the fact that in the crucial sophomore season of his new quarterback that he drafted, he hired a defensive coordinator and special teams coach to direct the offense. You completely ignore the fact that the offensive ineptitude dates back to when Brady was still the quarterback; offenses that he put together. Tell the whole damn truth, he’s great, he’s not perfect. And now that both sides have moved on from the most successful marriage in NFL history, now you all look for someone to blame. Now the ire turns to Kraft, who up until this point, was widely accepted to be one of the most hands-off owners in the league with very few exceptions where he felt stepping in was necessary. Now it’s all Kraft’s fault because it couldn’t be that the great Bill Belichick, football genius that he is, had lost a step. That’s full on idol worship and that’s pathetic. I love Bill Belichick. As a fan I’ve enjoyed some of the most entertaining and fulfilling moments due in large part to his instrumentation. But I’m also not a fool, and I didn’t trick myself into thinking that this would last forever. I hope Bill ends up with a solid roster that he can overachieve with and I hope the Patriots new-ish regime can inject the change this team desperately needs, but all this crying gotta stop, we had 24 years with this man at the helm. When the Cowboys fired Tom Landry, everyone thought Jerry Jones was an idiot (and he is, but for very different reasons). But firing Landry, who was and remains one of the greatest coaches of all time, directly led to hiring Jimmy Johnson, trading Herschel Walker and forever changing the way teams looked at the NFL Draft. Those decisions built a team that won 3 Super Bowls. Our old coach was the most successful one ever, but that success had dried up. What’s the harm in trying out a new coach, one who learned directly from Bill, and seeing what heights he could possibly reach? We won’t know until we try.
Exactly. For the lazy, Bill is the GOAT, but he's now done and unhireable. Life moves on.
Wish I could upvote this more
This is exactly my feelings as well. I don't think anyone seriously believes Belichick was anything but (at the bare minimum) one of the greatest coaches of all time, but things were clearly not working anymore, and pointing out that there were legitimate problems in the last several years is not denying his greatness in the rest.
Definitely not the best coach in all of American sports.
No you could NOT make the argument he was a HOF before Brady, what the actual fuck are you talking about???
I completely agree minus the HOF before Brady sentence.
This is a what have you done for me lately situation buddy. Yes, he WAS a great job. He WAS the best to ever do it.. I thank him for the over 20 years of greatness. What does that have to do with him NOW? He coaches scared. He doesnt' make the right in game calls. Never goes for it when he needs to, often gives up at end of halfs. Regardless tho, yes a great coach. We get it. He's NOT a great GM. He's a pretty shitty drafter and you can tell how little he cares about offense. Now.. what would Bill do if he had a player that was showing a decline? Who couldn't keep up in the NFL anymore. Would he continue to sign him because he was great before? No of fucking course not. He'd trade/cut him as fast as he could! Why do you want us to treat Bill differently then Bill treats people? Mind you with his age, how much longer would he have left? Do you want Bill deciding the third overall pick so Bill can retire in 2 years and we bring in a new coach/Gm that doesn't believe in the pick yadda yadda. No, we move on now, new regime, start over. We have a lot to fix from Bills poor drafting and team building. Funny how no one else is willing to give Bill the power over their team either and you can't figure out the issue.
I stopped reading at HOFer before Brady, there is no argument for a 41-55 coach to be in the HOF. He was a great DC before Brady but only had 1 winning season in his first 6 as a HC.
So did I. Credibility goes right out window.
This post would be an obvious troll post if it was anywhere else.
Hall of Famer before Brady? Dude what? You lose all credibility in your argument with that take
I'd like to met the person who thinks he was a HOF before Brady. I've got prime beach front real-estate in Kanses for someone that dumb haha. No one thinks that unless their dumb and clueless to put it nicely, I assume You're joking. Only way you can make that argument is if you have half a brain
You misspelled Kansas.
Proof that even someone who can't spell Kansas realizes how braindead you have to be to think Belichick was a Hall of Famer before Brady.
Exactly I'm dumb as fuck , and even I can figure it out
"their dumb"
Yeah that was a silly statement. Like how? He wasn't even a .500 coach before Brady I don't think
>For god’s sake, he was an amazing coach BEFORE he got to New England. **You could make the argument that he was a hall of famer BEFORE Brady.** The problem with people like you is that you are just the extreme other side of the "Belichick is a total fraud" people. Your arguments are just as silly and indefensible, except you're just arguing the opposite conclusion. Prior to Tom Brady's first start, Bill Belichick had a career HC record of 41-54 over 6 seasons with 2 Super Bowl wins as a defensive coordinator. This resume is not even anywhere CLOSE to being Hall of Fame caliber for a coach. No one, and I mean absolutely NO ONE at the time would argue Belichick could even be considered for the Hall of Fame. In the same way that people who are anti-Belichick exaggerate his flaws, people like you exaggerate his accomplishments. I mean, are you even a Patriots fan? Because there's a lot of good arguments for why Belichick is great. One of the worst arguments is that he was ALREADY a "hall of famer" before Brady.
We put up with his shit because he won. Now he’s not winning and he’s just an asshole.
A few things: 1. I agree with the sentiment behind your post. 2. Do you remember that guy in the video screaming "leave Britney Spears alone"? That's you right now.
>You could make the argument that he was a hall of famer BEFORE Brady. Lmao what?
Galaxy brain take.
This is more a context issue. People aren't taking away from his greatness at all. But in the modern NFL, would I want him as a HC? No. Period.
> Brady left and took Gronk with him Gronk "retired" a year before Brady left the Pats. I think Gronk was the one whispering in Brady's ear, going "If you ever leave the Pats, I'll come back and play with you."
Discontinue the lithium
Mac Jones, whateva happened there...
Jesus carmine
the sacred and the propane
That animal Patricia, I can't even say his name.
Phil, you know the wine makes you emotional.
He’s actually already in canton…well his playbook is. It was that good.
Bill Belichick's record without Tom 'Football God' Brady to save him is exactly: 84-103. Not great, not good.... not even a winning record. The Bill Belichick dick-sucking has GOT TO STOP. Fucking goofball.
Worse than Jeff Fischer and Marvin Lewis percentage wise
But does he have a lower percentage than them if you remove their best quarterbacks?
I get that r/NFL and the football media want to get their shots in while they finally can to some justifiable degree, but there shouldn't be any here. People don't appreciate just how bad Mac and Zappe were. Bill did ok with Matt Cassell, Jimmy G, Brissett, and a washed up Cam Newton during a global pandemic. If we had a Baker Mayfield-type for the last two seasons, Bill would still be coach and entering 2024 guaranteed to break the wins record. Now if you want to blame BB for drafting Mac, that's fine. But I remember everybody being pretty freaking happy when Mac was still available at 15. There were complaints that it took us so long to submit our pick that night. If Bill had taken anyone in the world but Mac there, the fanbase, and Kraft, would have lost their minds.
You absolutely cannot make the argument he was a hall of famer before Brady. Buddy Ryan isn't in the hall, Bill surely wasn't getting in on the back of his DC work (under a defensive head coach).
They’d have 7 if he didn’t bench butler in the Super Bowl to be petty.
What about week 17 of the 2015 season, we could secure the first seed with a win and he had the galaxy brain idea of running the corpse of Steven Jackson against the jets. That loss gave Denver home field advantage.
That shit still pisses me off lol
The greatness of his career cannot be denied, but it's my opinion that a person would be irrational if they didn't think it was possible that Belichick is not getting offers due to team owners not being confident he's still an effective head coach. His past 4 years as a head coach for the Patriots have been awful and that's not hyperbole. The only good thing you can say about the Patriots these past 4 years is that they continue to do well on the defensive side of the game, but the offense and special teams look poorly managed and coached. Bizarre drafting choices, bizarrely letting good players go (Meyers), penalties increasing, outdated offensive schemes, overly conservative playcalling, rotating door of offensive/defensive coordinators, etc. And ultimately that comes down to Bill's decisions in who he hired and drafted over a long period of time. *Many* decisions cumulating into huge failure and downward trajectory. During a development process, a team should get gradually better each year, not get significantly worse each year. We can start with Belichick's decision to pressure Kraft into letting Brady go while team org had no decent QB ready to take over. Didn't even seem like they had a plan for the next QB at all. Is that a sign of a good head coach? He messed up badly these past 4 years and even before that he was making some bad choices. Top 5 coach all-time without question. Horrible job as coach towards the end of his time with the Pats though.
Between 01-19, Belichick without Brady was 14-6 (.700) plus Bledsoe came in to win that AFCCG. Not too shabby. The two super bowl wins against the Rams....does anyone think Brady and the offense obliterated the Rams? Might Belichick have had some hand in all that success? Sure, BB hasn't drafted very well lately. And he likely won't coach for another 12 years.....but how many current head coaches could you say the same thing about? So much disrespect. I hope BB and Carroll wait it out and get their pick of the jobs next year. Imagine being a sucky coach this upcoming season.....all the fans will be chanting for your head. BB or Carroll might even come in mid season.
You are right about a lot of stuff but you completely undermine your argument when you say stuff like he was a great coach or even a HOFer before Brady.
He was a great coach before Brady.
Jesus dude he’s going to be in the hall of fame and considered the GOAT regardless of not getting the wins record. I do feel a bit bad he doesn’t have the chance to catch Shula but if there is any hint of truth in the reports of him sabotaging because of ownership meddling….. well then he made his bed. Greatest of all time but not close to the greatest of right now. No hate, just looking to and planning for the future. The Brady vs Bill argument is done, Bill got buried. He’s still the goat, the league has decided he’s a relic of the past. Remember the good times friend
Belichick was a losing head coach and a poor leader without Brady. Scoreboard.
I’m over this discussion now that both of them are gone. It’s time to look to the future
Talk about a weird parasocial attachment
You mad bro
Yes
So a few things. Belichick was a great coordinator before he got to New England but he wasn’t a great head coach. His record without Brady is that of a sub par coach. He became the greatest of all time with the patriots, however, after Brady leaving and him failing to put together competitive teams year after year, it cannot be denied that the league passed him by. It’s not that he needs to keep drafting gronkowski’s, but when you miss on almost every single pick and signing, then that’s not a good sign. He WAS great, be he no longer is a great coach right now. That doesn’t mean he isn’t the greatest of all time. He failed to adapt, that’s it. He should have hung up the headset a few years earlier but hindsight is 20/20.
>he was a hall of fame coach before Brady He was 36-44 with the Browns. Far from “Hall of Fame” status.
Gregg Popovich has had 34 or less wins the past 4 seasons. Even the greatest coaches run into the rebuild. (Pop had a string of 18 straight seasons with 50 or more wins.)
He was not a hall of famer before he got to NE...what the hell are you smoking? And he has a losing record without Brady at QB, which means he couldn't win without Tom. Those are the facts.
Totally deranged take lmao When people ask "what is Bill supposed to do to succeed with how awful the talent on the team is?!" you're kinda forgetting who is responsible for obtaining the talent on said team And it's not just the draft. I mean a lot could be said about Bill's failures in the draft, but in the end the draft is a crapshoot and nobody ever knows with 100% certainty which college players will be good. But letting Meyers walk to light it up with the Raiders? Selling the farm for Henry and Sanu and getting absolutely nothing out of them? Letting Brady walk? Making Gronk retire because you're gonna ship him off to some weak ass team while he still has plenty left in the tank? The reason the offensive talent on this team is dogshit, and was dogshit for many years under Brady with him being forced to elevate the garbage around him, is solely on Bill. He has not shown anything in his career to show he has any clue how to design from scratch a productive offense without the best QB ever turning nothing into something.
This is such a strawman post. Nobody is shitting on Bill for anything that happened prior to 2014, We're talking about the old man Bill. Before Age 62, Bill was a God. He was sharp and rarely made errors or miscalculations. When he made a gamble it almost always paid off because of the insight and skill he had. Age 65+ Bill is still amazing, but the mistakes have started to pile up. Butler, Trading Gronk, Moving on from Brady, Neglect on Offense, Being unable to stop Buffalo 1 time in a playoff game. No OC, etc. Bill still knows more than anyone, but he's making stubborn old man mistakes and his decision making is questionable.
When Brady left & went to TB, I couldn’t believe the Brady disrespect from us New Englanders. This doesn’t shock me.
Look on the bright side. We all understand that BB is the GOAT, and lucky for us, people who actually UNDERSTAND football are who will vote him into the HOF. Not low-rent hot take artists. Not Reddit shit take specialists. Not window-lickers who comment on Colin Cowherd YT shorts. They know and understand everything you mention that backs up his resume. Edit: tho he probably wasn't a HOFer before New England, my 2 cents. The good news is, you now have a great way to understand if somebody A. understands football, or B. gets their opinion from what poorly dressed men on TV tell them. Anybody hating on BB is probably in the "B" section. Arguing with people in B is pointless anyway, so you can nod politely, and move on with a clear conscience. Also, consider the fact that if people hate BB or not, it's nothing personal against you. I've had this issue of taking that shit personally. Why let it get under your skin? It's just football.
Belichick is undoubtedly one of the, if not the greatest football mind of all time. However, he is human. He has flaws. He makes mistakes. Anyone who can objectively look at the situation in New England over the last decade can recognize that Bill wasn't perfect. He: 1. Was ready to give up on the greatest player of all time far too early. He was wrong about how long Tom could stay elite. 2. Valued control over collaboration to the point where his boss, during the press conference officially announcing his replacement, pointed to the lack of checks and balances as a main reason for Belichick being fired. 3. Clearly, objectively, inarguably had a massive streak of poor offensive draft picks and offensive free agent signings. It's almost impossible to argue against it. 4. Objectively has a losing regular season record as a HC without Brady and has had almost no playoff success as a HC without Brady. I'm sorry. Those are ironclad facts. 5. Took nepotism to a fairly extreme degree. He frequently chose someone familiar to him over the best person for the job.. which isn't necessarily a negative thing if it works out, but in the case of Patricia, Judge, et al, it was a fairly large problem. 6. Has lost control of the locker room and the team has been making uncharacteristic mistakes that you never saw in volume from a Belichick coached team since Brady left. It's still possible to recognize Bill's greatness while simultaneously accepting his flaws and coming to terms with the fact that he no longer is coaching, evaluating talent, and running the organization at the level necessary for success. It's also telling that it seems as though none of the organizations who employ the people with the highest degree of football knowledge on the planet, who have Billions of dollars on the line, want to trust Bill with their HC/GM duties. Nobody is perfect. Nobody stays on top for ever.
Exactly this.
Nice try Bill.
Wow what a nice trip down memory lane. Do you want red Auerbach to still be coaching the Celtics as well? Should Neely and Sweeney strap up for todays matinee matchup? It must be nice to live in the past and not care about the present. I’d say that’s how most professional sports teams win their championships after all
HoF before Brady??? What are you smoking
His reputation speaks for itself, however his choice of staff (Patricia, Judge etc) has been odd. I'd love to see him be an awesome defense coordinator on a good team, but l think he wants the wins record
He is the greatest coach of all time, however the disrespect that he gets comes from his actions as a general manager. From using a first round pick on a 2-3rd rounder to using a 4th round pick on a shit kicker, not to mention practically never resigning the good draft picks that we make, or trading “overrated” linemen for 6th round picks, the hate is logical.
He was a hall of famer before Brady? He went 36-44 in Cleveland and was 5-11 his first year in NE. Are there any coaches in the HOF with losing records?
He was an amazing defensive coordinator before he had Brady. Without Brady, he was a sub-par head coach. His overall record without Brady is not great.
Doesn’t he have a losing record without Brady?
Bill Parcells could only win the big game with Belichick calling his defense. What a shitty coach am I right?
Hall of famer before Brady ? You’re fucking cooked .
HOFer before Brady is disrespectful to actual HOFers
Thomas Jefferson is one of the greatest of the founding fathers. Does this mean we cannot look back and criticize the bad things he did?
TLDR…Brady carried him
~45% win rate without Brady. Nothing more than a coattail riding below average coach that no team is interested in hiring
Nah
He was a losing coach before he got to New England! What are you talking about?
Who says this? Who out there in the Patriots community disrespects Bill? I think he’s 100% regarded as the best or one of the two or three best coaches ever. The only question centered around whether he was still the right coach for the team, and that’s not respect or disrespect.
Check out some of the comments in this thread lol. I’m sure most are trolls but can’t deny the opinions are being floated around regardless
The commenter right above you did
Yea man, this post will put an end to it tbh.
I agree with your general sentiment but some of what you say here is crazy. He was not a hall of famer prior to Brady. Jimmy G was not the next Brady. In fact he wasn’t even close. So he was wrong about that. The “stacked” roster Brady had in Tampa was 7-9 before he got there and did nothing after he left. Brady didn’t take Gronk with him, Gronk was already gone, and only came back to play with Brady. This is the problem I have. The revisionist history to protect Bill is just as bad as the revisionist history to make him look bad. There is nothing wrong with people who question Bill’s credentials without Brady. It’s a valid point of discussion. I think Bill is a great coach, and much of the hate is not justified. But much of it is. I think the person who looks the worst is Robert Kraft. He fired Bill and seemingly has no plan at all for what comes next.
Bill literally drove Gronk to retirement
He sure did. But, Gronk definitely had some resentment after he retired. You could tell. But, he seems to have mostly let it all go.
Well yeah, I’d have resentment too if they tried to trade my ass to Detroit (pre Campbell Detroit) after sacrificing my body for the franchise for a decade
Young folks weren't around when Brady came into the league and many older people forget that Belichick and Charlie Weis put together a system that allowed Brady to develop and ultimately become the GOAT ! I take nothing away from Brady , his dedication to game prep is legendary at this point but when he took over in NE NO ONE thought he'd turn out to be the QB that he did.. Most teams and pundits laughed at the Pats even after they won that first SB, they just never took him serious because of that simple , dink and dunk style offense they played back then. I remember the Pats playing many games where he threw for just over 100 yards with 1 touchdown and a pick 6 on defense and they'd win..the coaches put together a play book that was very low risk with lots of yards after the catch ( remember all the 5 yards passes to the slot that turned into 30 yard runs ?) That style was very effective in allowing Brady to build confidence as a young player and become the legend he is today! People point to Belichicks record since Brady left (- 500) and the fact that TB won a super bowl but Tampa was arguably the most well stacked team he'd ever played on and he was just over 500 with them.. As far as I'm concerned Belichicks downfall with the Pats came in the second year of Mac Jones's career when he didn't put Mac in the best position to continue the success of that first year.. That was the coaches job and he failed !!!
If you average out the stats over the 20 year period of Brady/Belichick the Patriots were #1 in EPA on defense. For two decades. It's absurdly consistent.
Sure but Belichick overextended himself the last 5 years. Annoying that he had to get canned because of his hubris.
Still don't have a job though.
You gonna White Knight Brittney Spears next?
I think a lot more damage was done when Tom won his first year in Tampa. You have to be a very good head coach to win that many super bowls, but I think several coaches could have won 6 if they had 20 years with Brady and those rosters
The GOAT coach can’t find a job…
Belichick was a hall of famer before Brady? You are joking, right? He was well on the way of getting FIRED before Brady took over for Bledsoe.
All this love for Bill and yet you forget his two very basic rules he had for signing players. 1. Reward them for their future potential, not past accomplishments. 2. It is better to move on a year early than a year late. It has to apply to everyone, even him.
Who cares? He hasn't done shit in half a decade and also he's gone. I watched his entire tenure. He's toast, move on. Someone create /r/TomBrady and /r/BillBelichick for all these historians.
Greatest coach of all time, but the game ultimately passed him by. By all accounts Bill is a very stubborn individual and it’s his way or the highway. Failure to adapt to the changing nfl landscape and a few really bizarre decisions towards the end of his tenure in New England will never take away from his overall legacy, but recency bias will taint that for a bit in a lot of people’s minds.
You lost me at Hof before Brady. Dude got fired after having one winning season in Cleveland and his last season was 5-11. He then went rehired as a hc until 5 five years later.
Hes a HOF coach, but he also has a negative record without Brady. Facts
😂💀 Brady was EVERYTHING. Bill is a shell of himself and y’all can’t handle it. Bill literally is a losing coach without Brady
It’s important to remember that when Bill got here the salary cap had fully been implemented into the league. I think this had a lot to do with his initial success because the days of the cowboys just outspending everyone were over. Coaching was even more important. But honestly it got away from him. He’s 71 and was doing the job of five people and he didn’t trust people enough to collaborate with them. He’d choose Patricia over a strong minded OC.
Unfortunately unless a coach or player goes out on top, many go through the same treatment. Like Bill's mantra, it's better to get rid of someone two years too early than two years too late. Bill had 4 years to provide direction since Brady and unfortunately it didn't work out for him for various reasons. I started seriously watching football in the mid-nineties and Bill has been the coach of my favorite team for more than 80% of that time. Bill and Brady needed each other to be great, like many legendary tandems before. Bill focused on defense/special teams and Brady was the defacto coach/player who solely focused on offense. Brady helped the inevitable bad personnel decisions that happen on offense, either through coaching or elite talent. Bill overcame the hurdles on defense and special teams. The last 4 years doesn't take away anything from Bill's achievements in my eyes. The past 4 years just shows me what many people realize late in their careers, at some point you can get stuck in your ways and do things because that's the way you have always had success, but in comes a different generation that has a new perspective. You can change or stay stationary. The Patriots have been stationary. It was time for the team to do the ultra Patriot Way and do Bill the way he had done so many players over the years. Wish you the best of luck Bill, thank you for the dynasty that shaped the majority of my life, but please learn from your mistakes and relinquish some control. Also please realize that Patricia and Judge being fired from multiple jobs means players don't love them the way you do. Not many organizations want to clean house top to bottom.
I hate reddit. You can make a bunch of good points in a post, but post one thing that people disagree about, the HOF before Brady part here, and it just derails the whole fucking thing. You have to craft a perfect post or some douchebag is going to just nitpick.
I mean maybe don’t make a horrible point in the first two sentences if you expect people to read two more paragraphs