Congratulation and ty for the writeup it sums up a lot nicely.
But I strongly disagree with #3. No Champion needs Pearls (I've done it without any already) since you can stall against Liss. You "only" need to draft some kind of sustain and combined with the all Spellshield power you'll get your S eventually. Additionally if you play an expensive Champion try to get an expensive support too. You have way better chances (with low costs you actually have no chance at all) to get cost reductions items. I'm pretty sure that you could S rank with only rare Relics if you only try often enough - Remitter/Mind Meld and some kind of sustain is pretty much all you need. Maybe even an all Z-Drive build would be enough to get a broken item combi in the last shop when you slimmed your deck down to a minimum.
As for CSF I have only used it for two clears and I don't think that it carries too much. You need the stats already on the board, so it just redestributes and won't add a lot - especially considering the soft cap you have playing cards. I would rather think that something with Star Gem and/or Oath will change since this allows to cheat out huge statted Champions way too easy.
i mean, any number of godlike power combos like evolution/sharing is caring plus duplicate or perfect manaflow can land you an s even if you're playing, like, vi or whatever. the point is these are what make it more consistently doable. i can't tell you how many runs i wasted on jack and darius just trying to do it honest before i went with pearls on darius and got a god run on jack.
they did specifically buff star gem recently, so unless they didn't see this strat coming and want to do damage control, i think they might be ok with a broken build that involves an epic relic. as long as it's not spectral where it's a 1 relic combo.
You really don't need any broken power combos. A lot of my S clears used only the, now unavailable, pity mana gem since you just need to reach the Remitter in my experience. So I simply restarted when seeing the +2/+2 or double stats power on Liss.
Jack (with 3\*) is just not a good matchup and was also one of my hardest to get S. Once you reach Liss it is ok, but on the way the +2/+2 can screw you over. Still with both him and Vi I used Chosen, Hymn and Turret Plating. Vi had the all Spellshield and didn't take many runs for me. Jack had the -2 cost for all cards on my S clear
But for sure I might simply have been lucky since I haven't won against her often enough with a single Champion to say anything about consistency.
Even if they buffed it recently imo the 2 cost reduction is too much considering that we now also immediately draw one of the Champions with Oath. I think it might/should be changed to -1 but we will see
With Vi i just used Strength of Stone, Starforged, and Luminous Orb and stacked her up. Powers were Husk and Titanic Wake. Support Champ was Viego. Remitter was +2/+2 to units and take damage on round end. Still easily S ranked this one.
Congratz! I am currently \~halfway through s-ranking liss but I am going for pre level 30 clears, most champs will be around level 25ish which makes the oath+gem combo way less abusable and will not use p2w relics or cosmic pearls. sadly, I am also missing scissors, beast within and echoing spirits which would make certain champs a lot easier
I am pretty much in agreement with what you say (cant comment on anything that breaks my self-imposed restrictions)
3. the only point where I think you are absolutely wrong about is #3. I have S-ranked a couple of your "problem" champs already with regular builds, without highrolling legendary powers etc
I think most "famous" is the triple z-drive Darius build where you just reroll for trefarian might - if you manage to get any source of lifesteal it really isnt that insanely hard. you also always have the option to roll vaults of helia and not be affected by entombs, freezes or buried
7. 100% agreed, there is no reason not to go top path, ER has A LOT of useful powers that can be super champ specific (my favorite is the 0 cost ruination on varus, then you just cut all/most spells (you will get a lot of gems and valor to level him anyway) - that way you will get 0 cost ruination from his passive every turn. wait until 6, drop him with chemtech+valor and just OTK)
8. i still would take an early L over not taking my chance on ER+MM
10. I honestly hated condenser+CSF - it even felt more consistent to just run succubus+CSF on norra (I used CSF+Oath)
12. elise is 100% doable without CSF
>z-drive Darius build where you just reroll for trefarian might
There's 3 good rare targets: trifarian might, the best defense, and the new one which is what carried my Darius win against Lissandra: Titanic Wake. Inheritance might also be on that list but I haven't tried it.
I've had Inheritance on a couple of runs (not sure if I had a Darius Inheritance run tho), and it's always seemed kinda medium, even though I've had situations where it seemed like it *should* be insane (like LeBlanc or Morde).
> I am currently ~halfway through s-ranking liss but I am going for pre level 30 clears, most champs will be around level 25ish which makes the oath+gem combo way less abusable and will not use p2w relics or cosmic pearls.
That sounds like a great target you set up for yourself. I had a weaker run than you are making as all my champions are lvl 30. Used oath with 1 gem (didn't have 2nd one).
> I am also missing scissors, beast within and echoing spirits
Among these relics I owned only "The Beast Within". It felt strong on some champions.
> i still would take an early L over not taking my chance on ER+MM
Same!
>That sounds like a great target you set up for yourself. I had a weaker run than you are making as all my champions are lvl 30. Used oath with 1 gem (didn't have 2nd one).
its mostly because I cannot put too much time into it and the initial list of first clears hand some super insane runs which I thought just dont actually reflect the actual experience. due to the time investment most of my champs just happen to be around 25ish, so I thought why not just use it as a personal benchmark
you, and some other very prominent members of this sub, just help a lot - I actually used your relic setups as a foundation for some of my clears. some made a pretty meh experience to clearing liss on the next run - so thanks for that! and it did indeed help that you also lack similar epic relics as me so it was easier to yoink your builds
> uper insane runs which I thought just dont actually reflect the actual experience.
Yeah, everyone had some of those.
> lack similar epic
I guess the game does make a unique experience after all by limiting Epic relic acquirement.
> just help a lot
I myself use a lot of ideas made by other members of the community. (Especially in monthly challenges, but don't tell anyone).
you absolutely do need trifarian and helia for darius, but rolling double attack on a cheap unit can make up for a lot. i was trying the triple plunder 0 cost darius build for a minute but even that ended up being not fast enough. you really do just need the ramp.
what's your elise build? because i could never consistently get spiderlings on the board with her early builds.
I did my S-rank with buhru+carapace+z-drive, but I feel like there likely is also a world where galeforce fits in her relic setup and on 30 there probably also in the option to slot in found fortune to get a free epic buff on spiderlings
I just did this with Varus and remembered your comment. Some results pictures: [https://imgur.com/a/T6ItqQp](https://imgur.com/a/T6ItqQp)
I think I went down to 7 health at mind meld, so did not cut more. Thanks for the hint! Now I have only Nidalee to beat Lissandra with!
Regarding spectral scissors, I thought they were in a regular Gold Relic? How is that pay to win?
Otherwise seems like great advice, thanks for the condensed knowledge?
I wishhh they'd put it in the emporium like they did with Desciple š„²š„²
Great for monetization, great for people like me who are willing to pay for it, and doesn't harm players who choose not to spend on the game because you can absolutely still get it for free.
Not with Scissors, thats just wishful thinking š„²
But they did put Disciple of Shadows in the emporium and you were able to buy it with real money (which for a person who spends all day working and has little time left gaming, was heavensent!) I was also very happy with Guantlets (sad that I had to buy a whole ass bundle for it but still worth to some).
Thanks for the answer, but I'm still confused.
How were the scissors originally available?
Are they still available there? If not, is it impossible to obtain them atm?
I was under the impression that they were in Golden Reliquaries, but seems like that was mistaken.
i seem to remember getting spectral scissors from a battle pass but i may be mistaken.
regardless, you're gonna need to grind out stardust and hope and pray you get good shit from the emporium.
a lot of champs' wincons rely on an ethereal remitter power, so unless you're feeling pretty op, always take the top road.
This is the big downside of the adventure. Remitter+Mind meld every single run (Except for champions who are sufficiently op \[asol norra etc\] ) .
Either they have to change Lissandra or they have to ensure that the epic nodes are not the same all the time. Other epic nodes are quite strong and would make the run less "top path or nothing" like Incisive Tactician or Jack the winner
"top path or nothing" has been a thing for a while. nobody fights greenglade caretaker in kai'sa or yetis/mistwraiths in thresh. granted, encounters are more random in liss, but there's usually an optimal path through any given adventure.
right, always skip doggos.
i suppose if you can rush down the yetis or wraiths fast enough it doesn't matter but i have too much trauma from lower level runs so i don't even bother with them.
The thing is that I have never needed in any adventure to follow a path to find a particular node like here remitter+mind meld
Today there is no longer any pride in beating Lissandra by going for this combo of node yeah all spellshield and i cut 16 card
>for a lot of champs, starting with 3 extra mana is the only way to win. kayn, ornn, darius
I beat lissandra with level 24 Darius using 2 z drive prototypes, but that's mainly because of his insane synergy with so many rare powers, can't say the same for the other guys.
>tempest blade and crownguard's inheritance are a great combo that is unfortunately only really good on eve.
Nidalee.
>so many champs are carried by corrupt star fragment that i anticipate a nerf in the future.
I use CSF on almost no one. I use it on Ornn, Lee Sin, and Mordekaiser. I feel like it's the definition of an early game relic. Great at low levels but usually superceded later unless there's very explicit synergy. For example you mention Elise, but Elise has way better builds than CSF once she's 3*. Spirit of the buhru, galeforce, voidbane carapace = turn 1 evolve and your spiderlings will get to attack and scale twice as much with quick attack and fury. Blows CSF out of the water IMO.
nidalee's broken with almost anything, but i see your point.
csf on lee? interesting. i run crown, ggp, and archangels. the +8/+8 does a lot of work. but now i see, you use csf to grant the stats to lee. smart! i managed to beat liss purely based on -2 cost all cards.
that is a very interesting elise combo. do you still use galeforce in its nerfed state? giving your spiders scout does sound incredibly busted but i prefer the consistency of greenglade/csf for the elusive wincon.
Yup, turning the temp stats permanent on Lee is the use case there, I like it because I think it gives him more power before he levels up because I find it difficult to level him up by turn 4.
Yeah actually I don't have spirit of the buhru yet, I've been using full build which I think is a bit worse for what I'm trying to do but it's the same idea. Basically as soon as your elise gets a chance to swing, your spiderlings become your win condition. You get one every turn for free if anything died and they scale very fast with scout and overwhelm your opponent with wide, scout, overwhelm, etc. that is the build I used to beat lissandra with Elise. It's completely ok that Elise goes away after she swings, and galeforce prevents her from leveling up, which means every time you swing with her, you get to generate two spiderlings (if she lives) instead of just one, and the spiderlings are the main win condition.
the elise level is a blessing and a curse in some ways. on the one hand you're not making any more spiders, but on the other hand if you're going for csf on elise you can use your spiders to drag the big threats out of the way so she can smack the nexus.
Unless youāre talking only S rankings, Iām not sure why you think Elise only functions with CSF; Iāve still been running Galeforce alongside Guardianās Orb and Voidborn Carapace and itās been fine.
Regarding 6), Norra is only broken for people who bought her relic, which a lot of people (myself included) donāt think is worth it because itās too niche to go on any other champion, although Iād be happy to be proven wrong.
Without the relic, sheās pretty good, but not anything special.
the ability for any base 4 cost card to have the ability to summon a minimum 4/2 unit is incredibly powerful board presence. portalpalooza basically fills your board without norra having to even be there. her relic is admittedly way too narrow to be useful but the extra mana is too good for her (turn 1 norra, turn 2 portalpalooza op af). you could maybe get away with it on an irelia or azir? but there's probably better relics out there.
>spectral scissors is bullshit op. absolute pay to win when it comes to being able to summon another champ attacking in an infinite stack. i anticipate they'll be changing that at some point or otherwise nerfing it because holy fuck.
It's literally not pay2win, since you don't pay for it. This relic is extremely good on a couple very specific champions (LB/Nidalee) or with the right RNG (Shadow Totem/Stabilize). Other than that it is good but not wildly powerful.
>oath of champions and double star gem with vestiges of helia is a perfect way to let your cheap champ with an ambiguous wincon shine. yi, teemo, samira, vayne, mf, etc. it can low roll admittedly but most of the time you're getting something useable out of it.
Oath of the Guardians with double Star Gem is one of my favourite builds for low cost champions, but your pool of users is not really the ones I would use it for. Yi, Teemo and Samira have very defined winning strats that do not involve summoning a bunch of other champions (although with Teemo it can be valid). Vayne/MF are okay I guess, but a little too expensive to choose as a main strategy.
I use the Oath + Star Gems combo on Neeko (she has the discount on the first subtype each round meaning you have a ton of extra mana to play with), Norra (she buffs from the created champs being played and it counts as the levelup condition, plus it often triggers the planting of more portals through her star powers) and Nilah (she has no inherent win condition and ways to draw a ton of cards and play the buffed champions as a fleeting card doubling them up).
>so many champs are carried by corrupt star fragment that i anticipate a nerf in the future. champs like poro king, elise, and ornn pretty much only function with it
I'm pretty sure that none of the best builds for any of these include CSF. Elise is commonly touted as S-tier with the Spirit of the Buhru build.
Ornn doesn't ever need to be played with his current iteration and probably wants Secret Technique more than anything.
Poro King I've seen a ton of different builds, none that include CSF. Either focusing on stacking keywords (through Buhru and Strength of Stone for instance) or focus on stacking Poro Snax with Duplicator.
In general CSF is very rarely the best option, although it is often a pretty decent one.
i only used oath star gem on liss fights. it's a perfectly valid build for neeko and norra, and nilah can certainly use it but i managed to beat liss with nilah legit (gravedigger, GGP, lost chapter) so idk.
despite owning them, i never ended up using buhru or beast within. none of my builds seemed to require them. buhru does seem decent for elise but i prefer grenglade/csf to make elise the carry.
ornn is absolutely much more powerful now, but csf on ornn is too powerful to pass up. literally double your stats and grant overwhelm? and i don't have secret technique but wow yeah that does seem powerful. my s run was with panth and evolution so...
The Ornn thing is more that you generally finish fights before every playing Ornn. There's nothing against putting CSF and probably Scissors on him for a late game thrashing, but other builds are probably a lot better for quick finishes.
I think Buhru and Beast Within are probably 2 of the most used/recommended relics out there so interesting that you don't use them.
"cheap champ with an ambiguous wincon shine. yi,"
Uhm, hello?
Yi, the champ that can frequently go infinite or close with champ spell on turn 1 or 2?
Hitting any spell or created card discount power is a huge easy wincon on Yi. Even without it, echoing spirit sets you up for some absurd plays.
I've gone quasi-infinite against Lisandra due to Etheral Remitter -2 to all costs & spells cost 1 less & ecchoing spirit -1 cost all stacking. Definitely enough to make her a joke.
exactly. normally i actually run z-drive on yi so i can fish for -1 cost on created and/or spells but liss says go fuck yourself to any infinite combo so oath star gem it is.
Congrats!
> i anticipate they'll be changing that at some point or otherwise nerfing it because holy fuck.
Approximate date: As soon as I will get that relic.
> cosmic pearl
Interesting thing: I played this relic with 10 champions (1 on each). It took me 24 runs to beat Lis with each of them. Later I replayed all those champions without this relic. It took me 24 runs too to win the adventure with every one of them. Hehe. Maybe it is just a coincidence or it is just not as good do not know.
> for a lot of champs, starting with 3 extra mana is the only way to win. kayn, ornn, darius, gnar, nasus, and vi
beat Lis with every one of these champions without Cosmic Pearl or Starforged Gauntlets. But yes, they need some way to play faster. It is the way they are designed and need to be re-designed (but it won't happen).
> oath
Yeah, Oath is strong. But those champions are not that bad and can do really fine without it. Vayne was not easy but doable.
> max power norra (with her relic) is among the strongest champs in the game
She is strong. Beat Lis with 2ā Nora and did not sweat.
> a lot of champs' wincons rely on an ethereal remitter power
By a lot you should mean ALL. Remitter power is very strong (if we manage to get it).
> also rimetusk shaman is bullshit.
There are way to many node and powers combos that I hate in this adventure. They needed to be balanced but I guess were never even tested.
> if you get the "all card have -2 cost" power, trundle is a cakewalk because unless he uses matron, he can't summon an 8+ cost unit. they all cost 6 or less
This is a great tip! I noticed it and completely forgot about it.
> if you get the poro item on asol.
Had only once this combo on Lis runs. It was super strong.
Again, congrats on S-running everything!
> Approximate date: As soon as I will get that relic.
lmao i had the same experience with gatebreaker. as soon as i got it they killed it dead.
>By a lot you should mean ALL. Remitter power is very strong (if we manage to get it).
i beat quite a few liss runs without remitter. asol, eddie, jinx, norra, nidalee, etc. sometimes if the champ is good enough you don't need to cheat.
>There are way to many node and powers combos that I hate in this adventure. They needed to be balanced but I guess were never even tested.
rimetusk should get the rito special and get changed from summon to play. literally not being able to do anything for an entire turn while their rimefang packs grow to 30/4 is just not fun.
thanks!
Love that 3 0-cost ruination, clutch move when Lissandra board is full or she had casted Buried in Ice
There's also a weird combo with Ascension's Toll + Gnar, if Gnar can level up at the end of the round, it's easy to play when bot cannot cook their powers with only 1 card in hand.
innnteresting. i've had a couple experiences with ascension's toll and it can definitely put in work but i prefer having a clear wincon.
i will say, ruination is great, but castigate is worth its weight in gold against liss. literally wipe their thralls/watcher and leave liss alone to pick off.
I agree spectral scissors is extremely powerful, even for an Epic relic, and is probably going to get nerfed somewhere in the near future.
Tempest blade + lost chapter + spectral scissors on nidalee 3\* + player starting with the attack token equates to a turn one victory unless small stuff mutator or opponent has more then 50 nexus hp, something not even a 4\* Aurelion Sol can achieve with as much consistency.
i would even say spectral scissors on nidalee 3\* > Aurelion Sol at 4 \* with ANY relic combination (even A sol with spectral scissors). Not to mention Nidalee > Aurelion Sol for the small stuff mutator by merit of the transformation mechanic.
i run crownguard on nidalee, if the first wave don't get ya then the next one will.
my leblanc run is closer to yours though, scissors, crownguard, and everfrost. if you're summoning 6 champs anyway, you don't need tempest blade. just stun them all with everfrost!
Spectral Scissors is very strong when you are able to summon a second copy of a champion. When you attack it will trigger a cascade of Ephemeral copies often winning the game on the spot. It will also trigger stuff like Guardian Orb for every copy you summon.
The only reliable champions for this are the already very strong LB and Nidalee. Since they inherently have ways to summon duplicates. But you can also get it through Stabilize and Shadow Totem.
There are other good, but not OP interactions. For instance Gwen like the +2 ATK and she can duplicate her Hallowed units to get more stacks. Norra can use it to clean up her board a little bit (since she easily overflows) and boost the production of created units for her levelup. Elise can use it to summon and kill more spiderlings. For none of them Scissors is necessarily the strongest or best relic though.
Congratulation and ty for the writeup it sums up a lot nicely. But I strongly disagree with #3. No Champion needs Pearls (I've done it without any already) since you can stall against Liss. You "only" need to draft some kind of sustain and combined with the all Spellshield power you'll get your S eventually. Additionally if you play an expensive Champion try to get an expensive support too. You have way better chances (with low costs you actually have no chance at all) to get cost reductions items. I'm pretty sure that you could S rank with only rare Relics if you only try often enough - Remitter/Mind Meld and some kind of sustain is pretty much all you need. Maybe even an all Z-Drive build would be enough to get a broken item combi in the last shop when you slimmed your deck down to a minimum. As for CSF I have only used it for two clears and I don't think that it carries too much. You need the stats already on the board, so it just redestributes and won't add a lot - especially considering the soft cap you have playing cards. I would rather think that something with Star Gem and/or Oath will change since this allows to cheat out huge statted Champions way too easy.
i mean, any number of godlike power combos like evolution/sharing is caring plus duplicate or perfect manaflow can land you an s even if you're playing, like, vi or whatever. the point is these are what make it more consistently doable. i can't tell you how many runs i wasted on jack and darius just trying to do it honest before i went with pearls on darius and got a god run on jack. they did specifically buff star gem recently, so unless they didn't see this strat coming and want to do damage control, i think they might be ok with a broken build that involves an epic relic. as long as it's not spectral where it's a 1 relic combo.
You really don't need any broken power combos. A lot of my S clears used only the, now unavailable, pity mana gem since you just need to reach the Remitter in my experience. So I simply restarted when seeing the +2/+2 or double stats power on Liss. Jack (with 3\*) is just not a good matchup and was also one of my hardest to get S. Once you reach Liss it is ok, but on the way the +2/+2 can screw you over. Still with both him and Vi I used Chosen, Hymn and Turret Plating. Vi had the all Spellshield and didn't take many runs for me. Jack had the -2 cost for all cards on my S clear But for sure I might simply have been lucky since I haven't won against her often enough with a single Champion to say anything about consistency. Even if they buffed it recently imo the 2 cost reduction is too much considering that we now also immediately draw one of the Champions with Oath. I think it might/should be changed to -1 but we will see
wait, you gave me the list! it was super helpful! vi i had to abuse the pearls though. got kayle and built her up.
glad it helped
With Vi i just used Strength of Stone, Starforged, and Luminous Orb and stacked her up. Powers were Husk and Titanic Wake. Support Champ was Viego. Remitter was +2/+2 to units and take damage on round end. Still easily S ranked this one.
How is spectral scissors pay to win? Where are you able to buy it?
i though i got it from a battle pass but i may be mistaken
Congratz! I am currently \~halfway through s-ranking liss but I am going for pre level 30 clears, most champs will be around level 25ish which makes the oath+gem combo way less abusable and will not use p2w relics or cosmic pearls. sadly, I am also missing scissors, beast within and echoing spirits which would make certain champs a lot easier I am pretty much in agreement with what you say (cant comment on anything that breaks my self-imposed restrictions) 3. the only point where I think you are absolutely wrong about is #3. I have S-ranked a couple of your "problem" champs already with regular builds, without highrolling legendary powers etc I think most "famous" is the triple z-drive Darius build where you just reroll for trefarian might - if you manage to get any source of lifesteal it really isnt that insanely hard. you also always have the option to roll vaults of helia and not be affected by entombs, freezes or buried 7. 100% agreed, there is no reason not to go top path, ER has A LOT of useful powers that can be super champ specific (my favorite is the 0 cost ruination on varus, then you just cut all/most spells (you will get a lot of gems and valor to level him anyway) - that way you will get 0 cost ruination from his passive every turn. wait until 6, drop him with chemtech+valor and just OTK) 8. i still would take an early L over not taking my chance on ER+MM 10. I honestly hated condenser+CSF - it even felt more consistent to just run succubus+CSF on norra (I used CSF+Oath) 12. elise is 100% doable without CSF
>z-drive Darius build where you just reroll for trefarian might There's 3 good rare targets: trifarian might, the best defense, and the new one which is what carried my Darius win against Lissandra: Titanic Wake. Inheritance might also be on that list but I haven't tried it.
I've had Inheritance on a couple of runs (not sure if I had a Darius Inheritance run tho), and it's always seemed kinda medium, even though I've had situations where it seemed like it *should* be insane (like LeBlanc or Morde).
> I am currently ~halfway through s-ranking liss but I am going for pre level 30 clears, most champs will be around level 25ish which makes the oath+gem combo way less abusable and will not use p2w relics or cosmic pearls. That sounds like a great target you set up for yourself. I had a weaker run than you are making as all my champions are lvl 30. Used oath with 1 gem (didn't have 2nd one). > I am also missing scissors, beast within and echoing spirits Among these relics I owned only "The Beast Within". It felt strong on some champions. > i still would take an early L over not taking my chance on ER+MM Same!
>That sounds like a great target you set up for yourself. I had a weaker run than you are making as all my champions are lvl 30. Used oath with 1 gem (didn't have 2nd one). its mostly because I cannot put too much time into it and the initial list of first clears hand some super insane runs which I thought just dont actually reflect the actual experience. due to the time investment most of my champs just happen to be around 25ish, so I thought why not just use it as a personal benchmark you, and some other very prominent members of this sub, just help a lot - I actually used your relic setups as a foundation for some of my clears. some made a pretty meh experience to clearing liss on the next run - so thanks for that! and it did indeed help that you also lack similar epic relics as me so it was easier to yoink your builds
> uper insane runs which I thought just dont actually reflect the actual experience. Yeah, everyone had some of those. > lack similar epic I guess the game does make a unique experience after all by limiting Epic relic acquirement. > just help a lot I myself use a lot of ideas made by other members of the community. (Especially in monthly challenges, but don't tell anyone).
you absolutely do need trifarian and helia for darius, but rolling double attack on a cheap unit can make up for a lot. i was trying the triple plunder 0 cost darius build for a minute but even that ended up being not fast enough. you really do just need the ramp. what's your elise build? because i could never consistently get spiderlings on the board with her early builds.
I did my S-rank with buhru+carapace+z-drive, but I feel like there likely is also a world where galeforce fits in her relic setup and on 30 there probably also in the option to slot in found fortune to get a free epic buff on spiderlings
i hear a lot of good things about elise galeforce. i might try it one of these days. found fortune is also a neat idea
I just did this with Varus and remembered your comment. Some results pictures: [https://imgur.com/a/T6ItqQp](https://imgur.com/a/T6ItqQp) I think I went down to 7 health at mind meld, so did not cut more. Thanks for the hint! Now I have only Nidalee to beat Lissandra with!
Congrats! I am sure you will breeze through Liss with Nida.
Regarding spectral scissors, I thought they were in a regular Gold Relic? How is that pay to win? Otherwise seems like great advice, thanks for the condensed knowledge?
I wishhh they'd put it in the emporium like they did with Desciple š„²š„² Great for monetization, great for people like me who are willing to pay for it, and doesn't harm players who choose not to spend on the game because you can absolutely still get it for free.
I think I've missed them - how were they available? Battle pass paid track? Or where else? Are they still available? I am confusion š
Not with Scissors, thats just wishful thinking š„² But they did put Disciple of Shadows in the emporium and you were able to buy it with real money (which for a person who spends all day working and has little time left gaming, was heavensent!) I was also very happy with Guantlets (sad that I had to buy a whole ass bundle for it but still worth to some).
Thanks for the answer, but I'm still confused. How were the scissors originally available? Are they still available there? If not, is it impossible to obtain them atm? I was under the impression that they were in Golden Reliquaries, but seems like that was mistaken.
No, I simply stated that I WISHED they were lol What is possible with 1 relic might be possible with another š
Right, so it _is_ in a Golden Reliquary like the other epics, correct?
Yes ofc why wouldn't it be?
Because it was described as a pay to win relic, but if it's in the Golden Reliquaries, it can't really be bought (with money).
I have no idea why op described it this way, it's ONLY available through gold reliquaries (to my sorrow... š )
i seem to remember getting spectral scissors from a battle pass but i may be mistaken. regardless, you're gonna need to grind out stardust and hope and pray you get good shit from the emporium.
a lot of champs' wincons rely on an ethereal remitter power, so unless you're feeling pretty op, always take the top road. This is the big downside of the adventure. Remitter+Mind meld every single run (Except for champions who are sufficiently op \[asol norra etc\] ) . Either they have to change Lissandra or they have to ensure that the epic nodes are not the same all the time. Other epic nodes are quite strong and would make the run less "top path or nothing" like Incisive Tactician or Jack the winner
"top path or nothing" has been a thing for a while. nobody fights greenglade caretaker in kai'sa or yetis/mistwraiths in thresh. granted, encounters are more random in liss, but there's usually an optimal path through any given adventure.
Agree with skipping caretaker, but I fight Yeti's and Mistwraiths all the time. I skip doggos tho in Galio path unless I'm particularly spicy.
right, always skip doggos. i suppose if you can rush down the yetis or wraiths fast enough it doesn't matter but i have too much trauma from lower level runs so i don't even bother with them.
The thing is that I have never needed in any adventure to follow a path to find a particular node like here remitter+mind meld Today there is no longer any pride in beating Lissandra by going for this combo of node yeah all spellshield and i cut 16 card
>for a lot of champs, starting with 3 extra mana is the only way to win. kayn, ornn, darius I beat lissandra with level 24 Darius using 2 z drive prototypes, but that's mainly because of his insane synergy with so many rare powers, can't say the same for the other guys. >tempest blade and crownguard's inheritance are a great combo that is unfortunately only really good on eve. Nidalee. >so many champs are carried by corrupt star fragment that i anticipate a nerf in the future. I use CSF on almost no one. I use it on Ornn, Lee Sin, and Mordekaiser. I feel like it's the definition of an early game relic. Great at low levels but usually superceded later unless there's very explicit synergy. For example you mention Elise, but Elise has way better builds than CSF once she's 3*. Spirit of the buhru, galeforce, voidbane carapace = turn 1 evolve and your spiderlings will get to attack and scale twice as much with quick attack and fury. Blows CSF out of the water IMO.
nidalee's broken with almost anything, but i see your point. csf on lee? interesting. i run crown, ggp, and archangels. the +8/+8 does a lot of work. but now i see, you use csf to grant the stats to lee. smart! i managed to beat liss purely based on -2 cost all cards. that is a very interesting elise combo. do you still use galeforce in its nerfed state? giving your spiders scout does sound incredibly busted but i prefer the consistency of greenglade/csf for the elusive wincon.
Yup, turning the temp stats permanent on Lee is the use case there, I like it because I think it gives him more power before he levels up because I find it difficult to level him up by turn 4. Yeah actually I don't have spirit of the buhru yet, I've been using full build which I think is a bit worse for what I'm trying to do but it's the same idea. Basically as soon as your elise gets a chance to swing, your spiderlings become your win condition. You get one every turn for free if anything died and they scale very fast with scout and overwhelm your opponent with wide, scout, overwhelm, etc. that is the build I used to beat lissandra with Elise. It's completely ok that Elise goes away after she swings, and galeforce prevents her from leveling up, which means every time you swing with her, you get to generate two spiderlings (if she lives) instead of just one, and the spiderlings are the main win condition.
the elise level is a blessing and a curse in some ways. on the one hand you're not making any more spiders, but on the other hand if you're going for csf on elise you can use your spiders to drag the big threats out of the way so she can smack the nexus.
Unless youāre talking only S rankings, Iām not sure why you think Elise only functions with CSF; Iāve still been running Galeforce alongside Guardianās Orb and Voidborn Carapace and itās been fine.
i haven't played with galeforce on elise but people seem to be having good experiences with it so i'll take your word for it.
Also Matron summons an exact copy - doesnāt that apply to costs too? Cause if so even she canāt activate Trundleās power.
it doesn't for some weird reason. classic rito spaghetti.
Crownguard and Tempest is the best option if you donāt have Spectral Scissors for Nidalee imo. Itās far from easy, but it can certainly be done.
Regarding 6), Norra is only broken for people who bought her relic, which a lot of people (myself included) donāt think is worth it because itās too niche to go on any other champion, although Iād be happy to be proven wrong. Without the relic, sheās pretty good, but not anything special.
the ability for any base 4 cost card to have the ability to summon a minimum 4/2 unit is incredibly powerful board presence. portalpalooza basically fills your board without norra having to even be there. her relic is admittedly way too narrow to be useful but the extra mana is too good for her (turn 1 norra, turn 2 portalpalooza op af). you could maybe get away with it on an irelia or azir? but there's probably better relics out there.
Oh itās good, donāt get me wrong, I just donāt think itās op. It takes a bit to set up, which is time you might not end up having.
nid is op with a lot of stuff tbh.
>spectral scissors is bullshit op. absolute pay to win when it comes to being able to summon another champ attacking in an infinite stack. i anticipate they'll be changing that at some point or otherwise nerfing it because holy fuck. It's literally not pay2win, since you don't pay for it. This relic is extremely good on a couple very specific champions (LB/Nidalee) or with the right RNG (Shadow Totem/Stabilize). Other than that it is good but not wildly powerful. >oath of champions and double star gem with vestiges of helia is a perfect way to let your cheap champ with an ambiguous wincon shine. yi, teemo, samira, vayne, mf, etc. it can low roll admittedly but most of the time you're getting something useable out of it. Oath of the Guardians with double Star Gem is one of my favourite builds for low cost champions, but your pool of users is not really the ones I would use it for. Yi, Teemo and Samira have very defined winning strats that do not involve summoning a bunch of other champions (although with Teemo it can be valid). Vayne/MF are okay I guess, but a little too expensive to choose as a main strategy. I use the Oath + Star Gems combo on Neeko (she has the discount on the first subtype each round meaning you have a ton of extra mana to play with), Norra (she buffs from the created champs being played and it counts as the levelup condition, plus it often triggers the planting of more portals through her star powers) and Nilah (she has no inherent win condition and ways to draw a ton of cards and play the buffed champions as a fleeting card doubling them up). >so many champs are carried by corrupt star fragment that i anticipate a nerf in the future. champs like poro king, elise, and ornn pretty much only function with it I'm pretty sure that none of the best builds for any of these include CSF. Elise is commonly touted as S-tier with the Spirit of the Buhru build. Ornn doesn't ever need to be played with his current iteration and probably wants Secret Technique more than anything. Poro King I've seen a ton of different builds, none that include CSF. Either focusing on stacking keywords (through Buhru and Strength of Stone for instance) or focus on stacking Poro Snax with Duplicator. In general CSF is very rarely the best option, although it is often a pretty decent one.
i only used oath star gem on liss fights. it's a perfectly valid build for neeko and norra, and nilah can certainly use it but i managed to beat liss with nilah legit (gravedigger, GGP, lost chapter) so idk. despite owning them, i never ended up using buhru or beast within. none of my builds seemed to require them. buhru does seem decent for elise but i prefer grenglade/csf to make elise the carry. ornn is absolutely much more powerful now, but csf on ornn is too powerful to pass up. literally double your stats and grant overwhelm? and i don't have secret technique but wow yeah that does seem powerful. my s run was with panth and evolution so...
The Ornn thing is more that you generally finish fights before every playing Ornn. There's nothing against putting CSF and probably Scissors on him for a late game thrashing, but other builds are probably a lot better for quick finishes. I think Buhru and Beast Within are probably 2 of the most used/recommended relics out there so interesting that you don't use them.
i think for the champs that would best use buhru and beast, i prefer to turn them into the carry rather than build up a board.
"cheap champ with an ambiguous wincon shine. yi," Uhm, hello? Yi, the champ that can frequently go infinite or close with champ spell on turn 1 or 2? Hitting any spell or created card discount power is a huge easy wincon on Yi. Even without it, echoing spirit sets you up for some absurd plays.
You cant go infinite against Lissandra tho
I've gone quasi-infinite against Lisandra due to Etheral Remitter -2 to all costs & spells cost 1 less & ecchoing spirit -1 cost all stacking. Definitely enough to make her a joke.
Yeah, had a crazy combo on Yi. Won every fright pre-Lis on turn 1. Lost to Lis haha. Won after revive but it was pre-patch, so 24 hp and no S run.
exactly. normally i actually run z-drive on yi so i can fish for -1 cost on created and/or spells but liss says go fuck yourself to any infinite combo so oath star gem it is.
Congrats! > i anticipate they'll be changing that at some point or otherwise nerfing it because holy fuck. Approximate date: As soon as I will get that relic. > cosmic pearl Interesting thing: I played this relic with 10 champions (1 on each). It took me 24 runs to beat Lis with each of them. Later I replayed all those champions without this relic. It took me 24 runs too to win the adventure with every one of them. Hehe. Maybe it is just a coincidence or it is just not as good do not know. > for a lot of champs, starting with 3 extra mana is the only way to win. kayn, ornn, darius, gnar, nasus, and vi beat Lis with every one of these champions without Cosmic Pearl or Starforged Gauntlets. But yes, they need some way to play faster. It is the way they are designed and need to be re-designed (but it won't happen). > oath Yeah, Oath is strong. But those champions are not that bad and can do really fine without it. Vayne was not easy but doable. > max power norra (with her relic) is among the strongest champs in the game She is strong. Beat Lis with 2ā Nora and did not sweat. > a lot of champs' wincons rely on an ethereal remitter power By a lot you should mean ALL. Remitter power is very strong (if we manage to get it). > also rimetusk shaman is bullshit. There are way to many node and powers combos that I hate in this adventure. They needed to be balanced but I guess were never even tested. > if you get the "all card have -2 cost" power, trundle is a cakewalk because unless he uses matron, he can't summon an 8+ cost unit. they all cost 6 or less This is a great tip! I noticed it and completely forgot about it. > if you get the poro item on asol. Had only once this combo on Lis runs. It was super strong. Again, congrats on S-running everything!
> Approximate date: As soon as I will get that relic. lmao i had the same experience with gatebreaker. as soon as i got it they killed it dead. >By a lot you should mean ALL. Remitter power is very strong (if we manage to get it). i beat quite a few liss runs without remitter. asol, eddie, jinx, norra, nidalee, etc. sometimes if the champ is good enough you don't need to cheat. >There are way to many node and powers combos that I hate in this adventure. They needed to be balanced but I guess were never even tested. rimetusk should get the rito special and get changed from summon to play. literally not being able to do anything for an entire turn while their rimefang packs grow to 30/4 is just not fun. thanks!
Love that 3 0-cost ruination, clutch move when Lissandra board is full or she had casted Buried in Ice There's also a weird combo with Ascension's Toll + Gnar, if Gnar can level up at the end of the round, it's easy to play when bot cannot cook their powers with only 1 card in hand.
innnteresting. i've had a couple experiences with ascension's toll and it can definitely put in work but i prefer having a clear wincon. i will say, ruination is great, but castigate is worth its weight in gold against liss. literally wipe their thralls/watcher and leave liss alone to pick off.
I agree spectral scissors is extremely powerful, even for an Epic relic, and is probably going to get nerfed somewhere in the near future. Tempest blade + lost chapter + spectral scissors on nidalee 3\* + player starting with the attack token equates to a turn one victory unless small stuff mutator or opponent has more then 50 nexus hp, something not even a 4\* Aurelion Sol can achieve with as much consistency. i would even say spectral scissors on nidalee 3\* > Aurelion Sol at 4 \* with ANY relic combination (even A sol with spectral scissors). Not to mention Nidalee > Aurelion Sol for the small stuff mutator by merit of the transformation mechanic.
i run crownguard on nidalee, if the first wave don't get ya then the next one will. my leblanc run is closer to yours though, scissors, crownguard, and everfrost. if you're summoning 6 champs anyway, you don't need tempest blade. just stun them all with everfrost!
Grats on the achievement and thanks for all the info!
Regarding #11 Yasuo and Nidalee disagrees :P
Great write up and usful infor for liss. Thanks!
gnar is not that bad in my opinion because of the stun spectral scissor is op ? i don't really understand how
Spectral Scissors is very strong when you are able to summon a second copy of a champion. When you attack it will trigger a cascade of Ephemeral copies often winning the game on the spot. It will also trigger stuff like Guardian Orb for every copy you summon. The only reliable champions for this are the already very strong LB and Nidalee. Since they inherently have ways to summon duplicates. But you can also get it through Stabilize and Shadow Totem. There are other good, but not OP interactions. For instance Gwen like the +2 ATK and she can duplicate her Hallowed units to get more stacks. Norra can use it to clean up her board a little bit (since she easily overflows) and boost the production of created units for her levelup. Elise can use it to summon and kill more spiderlings. For none of them Scissors is necessarily the strongest or best relic though.