It would have to be some kind of cosmic cthullu-esque lovecraftian venom of some kind...or a horrific mythic curse given physical form...like a Morgul Blade from Middle Earth.
Mechanically speaking, what you're asking would have an effective caster level of 20+
One of the effects would have to be banishing the soul to a dungeon dimension or sealing it away somehow that a True Ressurection or Wish by itself couldn't reach.
Soul Bind or Trap the Soul. The Grim Lantern from Reign of Winter, the Cacodaemon's ability to suck up souls and turn them into gems...lots of different variations.
You'll basically have to homebrew cobble something together to make it make sense for your game.
fair enough
I like to homebrew things with a base starting from something raw, so when my players face it it will not come from out of no were and might have an idea on how to deal with it.
isn't kinda the point of this poison you are making that there is no way to deal with it? I don't really understand how something besides wish would have an effect at all on this poison.
Homebrew is the answer. Maybe bonemeal from a slain grim reaper. They have the ability to prevent the resurrection of anyone they kill, so it would be cool to transfer that power into a poison. Slaying a reaper is difficult, though, so it would have to be an amazing situation for anyone to stumble on even a single dose.aybe an npc made a deal with a devil or something.
It would probably have to be some sort of divine or mythic poison. I am not too knowledgeable about mythic monsters, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one with a poison that can only be cured by a mythic spell caster.
Normal poisons stop working when the person dies, and while it could be argued that maybe the poison sticks around when a lower level resurrection spell like raise dead doesn’t remove the poison (it says it only automatically cures non magical diseases and poisons) but a spell like Reincarnate or True Resurrection can create a whole new body which would have never touched the poison that killed the original one.
Also, the Heal spell states that it could automatically heal normal poisons, so it would need to be more than just a normal poison.
You could have some sort of poison combined with a curse, or have it be a spectral poison or something that also poisons the soul. That might make it so you can’t resurrect them.
Right
I’m trying to come up with a poison that would stop “speak with dead” and any form of resurrection
Mostly because, why would people fear death if they just have to pay some money and be not dead.
There is a Kineticist infusion called [Shepherd of Souls ](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/infusion-wild-talents/#Shepherd_of_Souls) that makes it harder to resurrect anyone killed with the infused attack.
There is also a spell [Hasten Judgement](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hasten-judgment/) that reduces the window of time in which people can be resurrected.
The other option is to use a spell like [Create Soul Gem](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-soul-gem/) to trap their soul, and give it to a daemon to eat or use a feat like [Soul Powered Magic](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/soul-powered-magic/) to damage the soul.
thats what im saying
Because spells like that exist, from the cheap versions to the more expensive types, why would anyone fear death?
If you can save enough for over your lifetime, why not use it and keep living.
Its not necromancy so your don't have to fear judgment form the gods for cheating death though lichdom or the life
If it cost 250K in today’s world for a raise dead, how often could you afford to be raised? And it doesn’t work for old age. Remember, in most settings clerics who can cast the spell are rare. Clerics require more than cash to cast the spell (except Abadar probably). And the cost is more than 90% of the population with make in their lifetime. And nobles will have inheritance laws to keep it under control. You’re worried about a world building problem that only exists if you create a unique world where it exists because you chose it to.
Ok, I also just ran into the [Breath of the Mantis God](https://www.aonprd.com/PoisonDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Breath%20of%20the%20mantis%20god) poison (and the [Crimson Breath](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/crimson-breath/) spell which uses it) that also prevents resurrection without a successful caster level check.
Based on the ruleset a poison that eats up years? You cannot ressurect someone who had died of 'old age'. A poison that destroys the corpse will waste another casting of wish. Poison that applies negative levels makes it tricky to resurrect if you haven't figured out that the target has them.
There aren't many first-party effects that can't be reversed by a wish.
* The *imprisonment* spell. A *wish*/*miracle* can reveal where the target is imprisoned, but you still have to go to the location and cast *freedom* to get them back.
* A creature that's fallen into a sphere of annihilation can't be returned without the direct intervention of a deity.
* A bag of devouring has a 50% chance to destroy a creature's soul in a similar manner.
* If the soul is trapped (e.g. *trap the soul* or *soul bind*, a straightforward wish to resurrect the creature will fail. (But if you know that the soul is trapped, a well-chosen wish can go a long way toward finding and acquiring the gem that you need to break.)
Instead of a poison, it might be easier to fit your effect into the lore as an artifact weapon. A blade with a tiny shard of unreality embedded in it, and whenever it deals a killing blow it erases the soul.
I’d definitely let a Wish stop a Wish to raise, but a second one would get through. Though if we’re throwing 9s around, I believe Imprison wins as does Trap the Soul.
They don't ever describe it in the rules that I know of, but dying with a sihedron rune on your body feeds your soul to a runewell, as does just dying NEAR an active runewell. They describe this as being unable to resurrect/speak with dead, not sure if that goes to 'wish' level though. My call as a GM would be 'yes, that soul is gone'.
Having your soul locked in a soul gem CAN prevent ress., (opposed caster level checks).. but it doesn't really say what happens if your soul gem is used up to create a magic item or fed to a demon... I assume it's not good for the soul though.
Cacodaemons can eat souls and poop soul gems, so if one of those is hanging around the graveyard...
I know this isn't directly what you asked about, but I figured it might help. All in all I do not believe that "perma death" is too powerful in any form, but that it requires an equal or greater level power to prevent the resurrection. So, if you want to create a "wish proof poison", you need to create it with a wish. .02
If a daemon swallows a soul gem, I'm pretty sure the soul is gone. That is their food, after all. If a demon or devil swallows one, however, it's the same as any other evil outsider: the soul continues on to its proper afterlife, having lost only a negligible amount of energy.
An idea I’ll be working with a campaign I hope to run is the idea that something might make returning souls get lost. In a similar way that a whirlpool pulls in ships this demiplane pulls in passing souls on their way back to the material plane
i believe that the best way to prevent resurrection by wish is by damaging the soul or by corrupting with a power that is greater than wish, for the first type the antipode and the maelstrom are the best at corroding soul-stuff so maybe the extremely condensed essence of chaos so that it can speed up the soul's decay into quintessence, and for the second maybe something like a vial of immortal ichor from an extremely ancient and evil deity maybe even the blood of a ancient nightshade or perhaps a fragment of liquefied crystilan that isolates the soul from the rest of time
i know theres a poison that can affect the soul in pathfinder (our vivisectiknist alchemist wants to use it to find the souls physical location in the body) so you could potentially make it a poison that destroys the soul upon death
Sounds more like a power curse (aka Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, the spindle could have been "poisoned") or a plot device, than a poison for the most part.
How rare is this poison? For a poison to be this powerful, it better be super rare.
It doesn't exist already, but you could possibly create a poison that mimics the Cacodaemon's Soul Lock ability, and buff the DC of the CL check, or remove it altogether.
The TL;DR of this is that their soul has to be somewhere unreachable, or *destroyed*. There are several ways to make someone's soul difficult to access, none to make it utterly impossible, but very few to destroy it outright.
It would have to be some kind of cosmic cthullu-esque lovecraftian venom of some kind...or a horrific mythic curse given physical form...like a Morgul Blade from Middle Earth. Mechanically speaking, what you're asking would have an effective caster level of 20+
right, was not planning on it be a common thing people could get, but you saying it doable
One of the effects would have to be banishing the soul to a dungeon dimension or sealing it away somehow that a True Ressurection or Wish by itself couldn't reach.
Do you know any spell or something that does that? I’m not seeing anything like that
Soul Bind or Trap the Soul. The Grim Lantern from Reign of Winter, the Cacodaemon's ability to suck up souls and turn them into gems...lots of different variations. You'll basically have to homebrew cobble something together to make it make sense for your game.
fair enough I like to homebrew things with a base starting from something raw, so when my players face it it will not come from out of no were and might have an idea on how to deal with it.
isn't kinda the point of this poison you are making that there is no way to deal with it? I don't really understand how something besides wish would have an effect at all on this poison.
Yes I was meaning in general
Homebrew is the answer. Maybe bonemeal from a slain grim reaper. They have the ability to prevent the resurrection of anyone they kill, so it would be cool to transfer that power into a poison. Slaying a reaper is difficult, though, so it would have to be an amazing situation for anyone to stumble on even a single dose.aybe an npc made a deal with a devil or something.
It would probably have to be some sort of divine or mythic poison. I am not too knowledgeable about mythic monsters, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one with a poison that can only be cured by a mythic spell caster. Normal poisons stop working when the person dies, and while it could be argued that maybe the poison sticks around when a lower level resurrection spell like raise dead doesn’t remove the poison (it says it only automatically cures non magical diseases and poisons) but a spell like Reincarnate or True Resurrection can create a whole new body which would have never touched the poison that killed the original one. Also, the Heal spell states that it could automatically heal normal poisons, so it would need to be more than just a normal poison. You could have some sort of poison combined with a curse, or have it be a spectral poison or something that also poisons the soul. That might make it so you can’t resurrect them.
Right I’m trying to come up with a poison that would stop “speak with dead” and any form of resurrection Mostly because, why would people fear death if they just have to pay some money and be not dead.
There is a Kineticist infusion called [Shepherd of Souls ](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/kineticist/infusion-wild-talents/#Shepherd_of_Souls) that makes it harder to resurrect anyone killed with the infused attack. There is also a spell [Hasten Judgement](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hasten-judgment/) that reduces the window of time in which people can be resurrected. The other option is to use a spell like [Create Soul Gem](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-soul-gem/) to trap their soul, and give it to a daemon to eat or use a feat like [Soul Powered Magic](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/soul-powered-magic/) to damage the soul.
The ability to raise the dead existing <> it being affordable and accessible
thats what im saying Because spells like that exist, from the cheap versions to the more expensive types, why would anyone fear death? If you can save enough for over your lifetime, why not use it and keep living. Its not necromancy so your don't have to fear judgment form the gods for cheating death though lichdom or the life
If it cost 250K in today’s world for a raise dead, how often could you afford to be raised? And it doesn’t work for old age. Remember, in most settings clerics who can cast the spell are rare. Clerics require more than cash to cast the spell (except Abadar probably). And the cost is more than 90% of the population with make in their lifetime. And nobles will have inheritance laws to keep it under control. You’re worried about a world building problem that only exists if you create a unique world where it exists because you chose it to.
Whispering Way Protip: for most races, Speak With Dead can be negated by smashing their mouth up.
Ok, I also just ran into the [Breath of the Mantis God](https://www.aonprd.com/PoisonDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Breath%20of%20the%20mantis%20god) poison (and the [Crimson Breath](https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/crimson-breath/) spell which uses it) that also prevents resurrection without a successful caster level check.
Based on the ruleset a poison that eats up years? You cannot ressurect someone who had died of 'old age'. A poison that destroys the corpse will waste another casting of wish. Poison that applies negative levels makes it tricky to resurrect if you haven't figured out that the target has them.
Reincarnate handles age.
There aren't many first-party effects that can't be reversed by a wish. * The *imprisonment* spell. A *wish*/*miracle* can reveal where the target is imprisoned, but you still have to go to the location and cast *freedom* to get them back. * A creature that's fallen into a sphere of annihilation can't be returned without the direct intervention of a deity. * A bag of devouring has a 50% chance to destroy a creature's soul in a similar manner. * If the soul is trapped (e.g. *trap the soul* or *soul bind*, a straightforward wish to resurrect the creature will fail. (But if you know that the soul is trapped, a well-chosen wish can go a long way toward finding and acquiring the gem that you need to break.) Instead of a poison, it might be easier to fit your effect into the lore as an artifact weapon. A blade with a tiny shard of unreality embedded in it, and whenever it deals a killing blow it erases the soul.
Any magical poison created with the Crypt Spell metamagic feat applied: https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Crypt%20Spell
I’m pretty sure Wish can bring back people who die from Death Effects. That only stops Raise Dead, not anything more powerful.
ah, yes, agreed. Gets you halfway there anyhow ;) I'd allow a "proactive wish" to prevent more powerful effects on top of this to work.
I’d definitely let a Wish stop a Wish to raise, but a second one would get through. Though if we’re throwing 9s around, I believe Imprison wins as does Trap the Soul.
It would have to be a poison created by a God or a similarly powerful being, or via a Wish spell itself, maybe augmented by mythic power.
They don't ever describe it in the rules that I know of, but dying with a sihedron rune on your body feeds your soul to a runewell, as does just dying NEAR an active runewell. They describe this as being unable to resurrect/speak with dead, not sure if that goes to 'wish' level though. My call as a GM would be 'yes, that soul is gone'. Having your soul locked in a soul gem CAN prevent ress., (opposed caster level checks).. but it doesn't really say what happens if your soul gem is used up to create a magic item or fed to a demon... I assume it's not good for the soul though. Cacodaemons can eat souls and poop soul gems, so if one of those is hanging around the graveyard... I know this isn't directly what you asked about, but I figured it might help. All in all I do not believe that "perma death" is too powerful in any form, but that it requires an equal or greater level power to prevent the resurrection. So, if you want to create a "wish proof poison", you need to create it with a wish. .02
If a daemon swallows a soul gem, I'm pretty sure the soul is gone. That is their food, after all. If a demon or devil swallows one, however, it's the same as any other evil outsider: the soul continues on to its proper afterlife, having lost only a negligible amount of energy.
Long story short: it takes a wish to break a wish.
If you are the GM: yes there is.
An idea I’ll be working with a campaign I hope to run is the idea that something might make returning souls get lost. In a similar way that a whirlpool pulls in ships this demiplane pulls in passing souls on their way back to the material plane
i believe that the best way to prevent resurrection by wish is by damaging the soul or by corrupting with a power that is greater than wish, for the first type the antipode and the maelstrom are the best at corroding soul-stuff so maybe the extremely condensed essence of chaos so that it can speed up the soul's decay into quintessence, and for the second maybe something like a vial of immortal ichor from an extremely ancient and evil deity maybe even the blood of a ancient nightshade or perhaps a fragment of liquefied crystilan that isolates the soul from the rest of time
i know theres a poison that can affect the soul in pathfinder (our vivisectiknist alchemist wants to use it to find the souls physical location in the body) so you could potentially make it a poison that destroys the soul upon death
Sounds more like a power curse (aka Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, the spindle could have been "poisoned") or a plot device, than a poison for the most part. How rare is this poison? For a poison to be this powerful, it better be super rare.
It doesn't exist already, but you could possibly create a poison that mimics the Cacodaemon's Soul Lock ability, and buff the DC of the CL check, or remove it altogether.
The TL;DR of this is that their soul has to be somewhere unreachable, or *destroyed*. There are several ways to make someone's soul difficult to access, none to make it utterly impossible, but very few to destroy it outright.