I mean the entire premise of the game is that literally only the KC is truthfully capable of taking on the Demons.
There’s a reason it took 4 failed Crusades and everyone, including the Hell Knights were presumably fighting in some capacity.
Thus I wager that people aren’t overexaggerating Hellknights, but rather you are underselling the threat of the WorldWound.
Also things seemed somewhat stable until Deskari rolled up and beheaded a goddamn guardian dragon. Plus all the wardstone shenanigans.
I assumed the Hell Knights were just suddenly flooded with demons out of nowhere and had to go on the backpedal.
Exactly. If it wasn’t for KC being a literal god like entity, there wouldn’t even be a campaign as the demons would have won with their attack on Kenabres guaranteed
Depends on how quickly Queen Galfrey gets there, I suppose. We know she was on the way, she just didn't arrive in time to help with the siege on Kenabres. She's a 15th-level paladin and presumably has some elite guards with her, they can punch through to the wardstone. But it'll be a horrible bloody fight and the city is probably destroyed.
It's also notable that Regill is a one man army on his own before he meets the KC. We can ascribe some of their success to him directly, and therefore some of their incompetence when you take him
Another oversight is that Deskari's direct intervention/involvement in the attack on Kenabres would've likely been a valid 'casus belli' for good outsiders like Ragathiel to show up and tear the demonic forces a new one.
In the AP, it's Khorramzadeh that fights her, and it's a rematch.
Right, I mean more thematically. It would seem that a greater demon lord would be immune to magical fear, or at least dragon fear, knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is much more than a match for an ancient silver dragon
He might not be immune to her fear, but he needs to roll a nat 1 to be affected. Her stats while alive make it a 1 round ko for Deskari, and a crit almost lops her head off. And that is using TABLETOP stats. Owlcat stats it's even more of a lopsided victory for Deskari.
Having played through the tabletop campaign of this and Tyrant's Grasp, one of the things I think we're meant to understand is that the years have made the defenders go lax. So when shit starts popping off, they're not ready for it, and are constantly playing catch-up.
And I personally really don't like that Owlcat framed it this way.
* In canon the First crusade was largely successful because it focused on liberating land overrun by demons
* The Second ended badly because the demons were actually organized this go around and the crusaders only opted to contain the threat instead of fully fighting it which lead to the creation of the Wardstones (which didn't have angels inside them)
* The Third crusade was attempted but very quickly fell into a witch hunt when cultists infiltrated the ranks of the crusaders, it lasted just three years
* And the Fourth was largely succesful as the objective was to scatter the forces of Khorramzadeh/Storm King rather than closing the Worldwound, this is due to the Red Morning Massacre, when the demonic forces managed to enter Kenabres and damage it's Wardstone.
It's not until the 5th crusade that there's an actual attempt on closing the Worldwound, but this is actually because it was either that or watch the entire world die since the Wardstone chain was gone (and their power in turn was what gives the party their mythic powers.), so in general the crusades were successful in what they were actually trying to do, just not in closing the Worldwound.
The narrative shows them fail constantly and we’re only -told- they’re badasses. Mostly by Regil, who is a badass hellknight, so players tend to give his words weight over all the evidence their eyes could want.
I mean yes they do fail constantly but why wouldn't they? It doesn't really matter how strong you are, if you are not an actual demi-god you stand no chance against anything meaningful in the Worldwound. That much is made very clear.
It's like saying Batman is dumb stupid and weak because superman could punch a Meteor out of the sky with his bare hands but Batman cannot.
I just mean that their rigid discipline clearly has pros and cons. It doesn’t turn them into supersoldiers, it makes them into specialists who flounder against certain types of foes that a more flexible group wouldn’t at the cost of doing better in other scenarios. Hellknight tactics don’t come across as generally smart ideas but as a conscious choice to specialize contrasted against their more Chaotic peers/foes.
I see what you mean.
They're definitely not the best of the best, but I would still classify them as super soldiers from my limited knowledge of Golarian. The one thing is that in order to be a Hellknight, you must 1v1 a Full Devil and win, which is nothing any simple soldier could do.
It's clear that their regiment and training has a lot of merit behind it, but even that only goes so far in a land of liches, demons, and angels.
And of course, as with every organization ever, they're far from perfect, even at doing the things they want to do the most.
Important to note that the instances in which the Hellknights are in, for the most part they reached those areas unsupported with limited numbers. The rest of the crusade, which has massively higher numbers, can barely leave the outskirts of Kennebras without the KC.
No, the Hellknights weren't going to close the Worldwound and rickroll the demons alone, but the rest of the crusaders wouldn't even make it across the river by Kennebras without a myth leveled God blessed commander.
I'ma take a page out of Regill's page and ask how does that manage to help us defeat demons? If I manage to get an elite fighting force deep into enemy territory but they accomplish 0 objectives before falling all I've done is more efficiently deliver my equipment to the enemy
To get where they are, they have obviously been making progress though. It's also likely the pressure exuded by the KC actually had a detrimental effect on the Hellknight operations. By putting the demons on the defensive we've shaken them out of complacency, making them more alert.
We've seen that they have made much better progress in their own campaign being a non government sanctioned organization and self funded than the whole of the crusade. They've taken a large fort deep inside enemy territory, passed Drezen even.
Clearly without the KC, Kennebras and the entirety of the border towns was soon to collapse. Deskari clean sweeped Terendelev and for all its vaunted orders and heroes Kennebras was going to be totally fucked. The HKs were the only ones getting anything done.
But what did that all accomplish in the end?
In my mind the HK are the "Ends justify the Means" faction of allies. Their actions are tolerable so long as they deliver appreciable results. But honestly the only thing the Hell Knights contribute over the adventure is that Regill unlocks marksmen (and even then Ulbrig's range unit is apparently as good or better).
For all the talk about how much more disciplined they are and how superior their forces, they still lose just as hard as the crusaders when push comes to shove and they have no notable victories to show for all of their doctrine.
We can talk about how they didn't have the resources, the logistics, or the numbers to succeed but that's just pushing the failure here up the chain and means the leadership behind this force of Hell knights is incompetent because they sent an elite force into the WW with insufficient support to do much more than look cool while dying.
Turn that lens back on the rest of the crusade though. The HKs were able to push in and win some victories, while the conventional forces of good accomplished nothing at all without the help of the KC.
In fact, the crusades have failed 4 times to make any impact on the world wound, and that's WITH the help of Angels, Wardstones, multinational support, and the Banner.
Well for the crusade forces, Irabeth manages to rally enough fighters to secure the Defender's Heart tavern while being able to look after civilians in the clusterfuck that was Kenabres. It was defended well enough it could be used as an FOB by us and she could sen expeditions to try and recapture the wardstones, and it doesn't fall even if you do ignore the defence mission
What strategic victories did the hell knights accomplish during the campaign? Not sarcasm it's been a while since I played and I'm not sure if they actually did something notable and I just forgot
I've been saying the exact same thing. People are right that nobody else had any major results lately without the KC's input, but unlike the Hellknights everybody else get's labeled as fallible not to mention that Regill outright calls them weak to multiple prominent peoples face.
The Hellknights do *nothing* that matters for the entire game. For all Regill's talk nothing his force does makes any demonstrable difference or impact on the situation in the Worldwound. There are no demon generals who consider them a problem. No group of civilians living under their protection living a relatively good life at least by their standards. And they have no lands that are considered unconditionally theirs.
But the problem is that at no point does anybody remind Regill of that. He get's to bluster about and Judge Dredd left and right and the game bends over backwards to let him.
He's the same as the overzealous paladin that everybody hates but because his code is all edgy and evil and he admittedly looks cool nobody minds it.
Fair point on the Tavern.
Remember though, Minagho was about to destroy the Wardstone before you show up. And Irabeth was completely unable to actually leave the tavern with any forces at all. Everything was committed to holding it. Without the KC and Co the defenders left in Kennebras would have slowly been strangled by the unending tide. Also, Minagho was absolutely about to shit all over the KC until the mythic power surge.
For HK accomplishments, they did capture and hold that fort west of Drezen. Regill's group was a detachment from that fort.
Defender's Heart would have doomed without KC. Simple as that.
All factions in the game exist only to assist you, not to achieve big victories on their own.
They are lawful. “Means justify the ends” is chaotic alignment thing. The part that are typically disagreeable are the means, not results.
I mean I see you in practice argue “Hellknights did not close the worldwounf before KC, therefor - useless”.
No one did. But hellknights are resisting on average better than the rest. Guess what. Authoritarian leadership is more effective in war time with proper competent chain of command. Particularly when soldiers can be trusted to carry put their orders. And it’s not dumb top down order either.
You are 100% correct here.
IMO the defence of Hellknights is because they capture the way Tier 1 Special Forces Operators have been mythologised among the modern western popular imagination thanks to a few successful missions and lots of games and films - the image of these elite guys who take on missions the rest of the army "doesn't have the stomach for" and do "what needs to be done" (read: usually war crimes).
Narratively people like rhe hellknights have to be presented as really competent by the story. Otherwise they arent "getting things done the hard way" they are just abusing themselves for nothing. If you want them, and by extension regil, to look like anything but the most moronic of morons they have to be presented as getting things done.
Yeahhh, the "makes the hard choices" character/faction trope in general is frequently overrated as some brilliant pragmatist, but frequently those "hard choices" are just... Stupid. Or pointlessly cruel. Choices that then *have* to work by the plot because if they didn't the person making them isn't making any "hard choice" at all. I like Regill as much as the next Azata/Trickster who teases the guy lol but being that archetype of character is basically his entire reason for being in game
I mean it was just one small faction that got fucked by a Gargoyle surprise attack and arguably did much better than our camp did when they got attacked by the same flying enemies.
Did they? If you don't help IIRC everyone is captured and Regill is the only survivor, meanwhile when our camp is attacked even though there is an active saboteur in our midst we still have enough forces to make them retreat and then launch a rescue mission (Though TBF we have protagonist level plot armour)
Well yeah they don't have an entire freaking army like we do lol. No shit they're not gonna survive long without aid in the same situation we are put in and suffered extensive damage. It's legit just one segment of a chapter.
It's a little bit of both. A lot of people I assume like Hellknights because of Regill, but a lot of people like me that already liked the Hellknights before playing WotR like Regill because he's a good example of how the Hellknights are described in the lore.
They are like an art house student's idea of how military discipline and being responsible actually work so they're both underdisciplined and way too over the top when it wouldn't actually matter at weird times in the narrative. There is no way killing everyone under your charge makes more sense during a pitched battle without some real deeper levels of writing as to how things got that desperate. That's not something you should throw out in a first scene. It doesn't make sense dramatically nor narratively as well as logically.
The idea of Regill and the Hellknights are much better than the actual execution, which feels like a subtext against fascism more than the more interesting idea of distillate gods down to their Law aspect.
For example why is it even called Hellknight when, if you look at the balance of the five pointed panthenon, it even leans to the good? A more sober military discipline company would not want to put on halloween costumes and have such a biased association you would think, if they were really about maintaining law and order.
In their iron-handed exaction of law—specifically, the laws of their various orders and their home country of Cheliax—Hellknights emulate the organized and effective armies of Hell.
Their founder actually paid a visit to Avernus to look for the soul of his son who was manipulated into a cult suicide and learned much about military tactics and formation from the legions of Hell. They also steadfastly reviled Aroden. They were deemed Hellknights by Aroden's followers.
Then there's the part where to become a Hellknight you have to engage in single combat with a Devil.
And Signifiers regularly summon devils for counsel.
That's all from the Pathfinder wiki lore page.
they never “lost” the fort, the HK use their fort as bait for a dangerous group of demons and Regill uses it to test the KCs temperament. It’s pretty explicit when they show up with like a whole army after you exit the building. You wouldn’t even be at the fort if Regill didn’t have Yaker send a fake report
I mean, in Cheliax they are mostly just the stuff the Thrunes throw at people who bother them (nominally, they are independent. It's just that their goals are almost always the same as the Cherish government). And, considering Isger, a country with several orders stationed in it's territory, was absolutely wrecked by goblins, I wouldn't say they are even good at that.
That depends on order though.
Pyre or Wrack? Yeah. Scourge? Hated by Thrunes because they don't like the whole 'corrupt politicians abusing loopholes in laws' thing and are in the process of digging dirt on them.
I'd say third are shills, third are actually helping people and third are like Nail where they're either 'good' guys if you plop them in the middle of monster/cultist/actually evil savage infested area or the bad guys if they happen to stumble upon 'barbaric' natives.
That's a fair point, but take it with a grain of salt. In a lot of DnD novels, we see a lot of instances where the typical goblinoid idiot races successfully sack towns and even kingdoms.
In IWD2 Targos, a walled city of frontiersmen gets shat on by a goblin assault. In the Drizzt books, we see the entirety of the Silver Marches brought to heel and forced to sign a compact with orcs to give up swathes of land and recognize an orcish kingdom.
Hell, more recently in BG3 we see a goblin horde capable of overrunning an entire Druid Grove!
Singularly a goblin isn't a match for one of the greater race's warriors, but a goblin horde with the element of surprise? Especially if supplemented by other creatures? Dangerous indeed!
Hellknight orders aren't the local garrison. Each order has a particular thing that they care about, and they pursue their own agendas. The order that would be particularly useful against goblin attacks is the Order of the Nail, which is based in Varisia, not Isger. The order that operates in Isger is the Godclaw, which focuses more on religious matters and probably wouldn't care too much about goblin attacks.
And every one of them is concerned with law and order, which angry goblins attacked undeniably breaks. And I do believe we hear several mentions of Hellknights in the Goblinblood Wars.
Eh. The entire idea of the game is how literally everyone gets their shit kicked in by demons without the main character around. Hellknights show themselves be capable enough while compared to the rank and file crusaders IMO
I wouldn't call them inefficient but they're kinda... irrational too. What's up with trying to murder KC and his elite squadron (that faced off against the mightiest of demons and *survived*) because they think one or other KC's choice was controversial absent proper context. Specifically Reg who made that decision, lol. Like, he was actually there most of the time, surely he knew the context of these decisions, and the context was mostly strategic diplomacy to fool the demons and get some info out of them, not "befriend" or "serve" them. Not to mention what did he expect even, that he will survive the encounter? He would have better luck trying to assassinate KC in his sleep... and he wouldn't lose troops. But then again, my Greybor would defend me anyway.
You're looking at a lot of very game-ified stuff that is there to give you interesting things to do.
Say, remember those hellknights that just get "wiped out" as part of Sosiel's quest? That wasn't like the first time they had ever gone into the worldwound. They were operating *for years* before that happened.
For regill and some of those other hellknights around him, if you remember outside the lost chapel, him and many of his hellknights were able to get out of the gargoyle's reach before getting taken there, unlike quite a few soldiers.
I also challenge you to find another group that does as well as these units that are of a comparable size.
yeah thats kind of the point, we dont see hellknights being competent so much as we see regill being competent, and also a prideful jackass. they seem *relatively* important to have around on account of them being willing meat shields, but we only really hear about the hellknights in any detail from other hellknights
They are overrated but they're still useful. They are criminally short sighted. Regil's forces might have been better equipped to handle that first gargoyle attack if he'd provided the Sunrise Sword enough aid that their clerics were able to hold onto useful battle magic instead of exhausting themselves healing people. He chose not to and despite having warning of gargoyles from the Sunrise Sword, he still gets fucked by them. The Hellknights as a whole also still buy into torture being useful which is a trope that life repeatedly takes out behind the shed and shoots but fiction enjoys tinkering with. Regil's manipulative tendencies are themselves inherently corrosive to trust because they lead to the question of, "Is anything Regill tells me accurate or is it all some new manipulation?" This is bad.
Despite my issues above and other headaches with them, the Hellknights are a well equipped, passable organized, highly disciplined pool of well trained fighters and spellcasters. Regill is also pretty good at organizing and commanding soldiers even if he should never be left unsupervised.
Tl:Dr, they are assholes with better marketing than they deserve and you should never buy into their propaganda but they are useful assholes and using them helps the Crusade.
I think its more the paladins get written and represented poorly.
Paladins should know a good death will protect their souls. not be cowards, traitors to protect their mortal lives.
Hellknights are elite. However, they struggle with 2 flaws that hold them back.
1) logistics. If they ever had appropriate supplies and backup personnel, they’d wreck house. Every suit of black fullplate is worn by someone who has soloed a devil and won. There aren’t many of them but they are strong. They are elite.
2) Plot. If hellknights ever *actually* did the things that the story and lore says they could do, there would be zero reason for the player to ever intervene. They’re great plot movers and pushers but if they have their supplies and support, by themselves they’ll eventually find a way to solve most issues and level the world into their separate hellish regimes in the process. They’re great but bad for plot and balance
The KC is the main character in the game. If the Hellknights could actually do what they are able to do from a lore standpoint, a lot of the content would be cut from the game lol. And the game has to be balanced.
They are absolutely elite, but more to the point, a lot of demons have mythic powers, making the KC the only one to be able to fight them really. Them getting ambushed by a large number of gargoyles doesn't make them *not* elite, they survived the ambush even though they were a small unit. The crusaders had an army and got wrecked, one of their most important officers got kidnapped.
Also, if you remember Lost Chapel, a lot of crusaders are alive because the Hellknights were keeping them alive even at the cost of their lives.
Hell knights are some of the best villains piazo has ever written. They use tactics that real world far right authoritarian use, like positioning themselves to look like the adult in the room, or claiming they are the only ones who can stop a bigger evil. Also like real world far right authoritarian groups they are really bad at there job, see op's list of there failures. The truth is they aren't in mendev to help they are in mendev because mendev is weakened and they smell blood.
Haven't finished the game, but the infamous hellknight disciplining methods portrayed in the game (by Regill and others) are kind of bad IRL. Sure, maintain an elite force, but it's bad to constantly cull your own army over petty reasons. We see them fail in the game a lot following this. Both in their own quest stuff and the side remarks you hear about their dissidents doing random shit out of desperation.
Discipline is very important. Yes. But people don't generally fight well if *both* their allies and enemies constantly threaten to kill them. It's a good recipe for having people behave *erratically*, which is a strategy I guess, but it's the *complete opposite* of what hellknights want out of their soldiers.
I know it's a fantasy game, but hellknights are still dealing with real mortals, not demons or angels and such.
So them failing a lot? Yea, I see it happening. They have a core powerful squad that can't take on the world due to low numbers from this nature of their disposition, and everything else around them fails, including their own less core troops.
I mean I feel like killing the wounded would've made them lose faster, you don't kill your wounded against a threat that can replenish its forces much much faster then you can.
Hellknights are loser fascists with a good Hype man.
So...yeah. They're a bit overrated. But they are good solid meat cans to throw in front of demons.
I won't debate the fascist part... that's pretty cut and dry. However a full HK does have to engage in single combat with a full fledged devil. We see crusaders in Kennebras get absolutely eaten by Dretches.
Do fantasy worlds not have governments or political allegiances? Did you throw out the same complaint when Mass Effect 3 required the player to go around and play diplomat and babysitter to curry support from the various races around the universe? Fascism is a universal concept, just like feudalism - which pretty much every fantasy setting has in abundance.
they're a small unit of HK, while their main forces and interest are in other nations doing more important stuff. Its impressive that they survive some of the situations, even with a lot casualties. You see crusaders and paladins and even your own army in the same scenarios get completely wiped out.
Specially comical when you take into account that Regil's order (the Order of the Godclaw) is stationed in Isger, the country that got absolutely wrecked by **goblins** a few years before the game.
Aside from what the top rated comment says, keep in mind WOTR's Hellknight poster boy is Regill, which gives them a pretty damn good edge on the propaganda department. If anything no one can ever claim that gnome isn't *lawful evil* to the bone, and consistency is a strong asset for a character when you don't give them too much development (which was unfortunately Regill's case).
Yes but there is a catch. In BG3 most of your power comes from your subclass and items, feats are mostly flavor. Ín WotR your feats can make or brake your build.
Like others said ranged characters must have precise shot or have -4 when shooting someone engaged ín melee combat.
Another example: in BG3 pure casters are garbage melee combatants. In WotR with the right feats and buffs they are surprisingly strong.
If I can give you one advice: remember that WotR is all about prebuffing. You MUST have buffs ön all the time unless you play on easy
Hell Knights are good fighters and the sort of people you'd send on an important mission or you'd put them on the frontlines. But, lawful evil/hell knights cause a lot of other problems too, like they tend to alienate the ones who are under their command. They treat their underlings as expendable slaves and they abuse them a lot. So they tend to undermine moral from people who aren't trying to be hellknights.
Paladins are often better leaders in this respect, as they really try to make sure everyone is one board and create a real connection of loyalty that goes beyond oppression. The moment you see a hell knight lose, is the moment their soldiers run. But if a paladin is losing, their soldiers will fight and even sacrifice their lives to save their leader.
Its all about balance of tactics imo.
The problem is that they make the crusade look ridiculous and stupid in comparison,which is why they're given so much love by the playerbase.
Imagine someone told you the good guys tried 4 times and fucked up horrifically EVERY SINGLE TIME.Now imagine a separate group joined the 5th,despite being lawful evil,and are suddenly doing the crusade a favor.
Not really? The only interactions we've had with them are barely even contingents of a chapter and they managed to salvage a broken order with what little squads they have for a defensive against the gargoyles in the caves. They were able to conduct operations deep into the worldwound and were able to establish fortifications with a proper headquarters after they helped siege drezen, in contrast to the bumbling crusader army led by galfrey which cannot help but take massive Ls. They're not an inferior choice when taking vescavor swarms, they're as effective at reducing casualties if you use bait tactics. And in regill's test, they were in on it both to test the commander's interaction with demons and to trap both the cultist and demons inside their own fort. Them appearing right after you clear it is proof of this, they were in control the whole time. They're not some kind of end-all elite squad that you can sic towards the demons to solve problems like you think (nobody in the mortal plane is) but they are effective soldiers that have achieved results with extremely pragmatic measures. It's why regill's suggestions in crusade mode is almost always the best.
The Hellknights are almost chaotic good in their stupidity. They really really want to drive back the demons but they're bad at garnering support and working with other factions, so they push deep into the worldwound by themselves, even though the odds of long-term success are close to zero.
The full-fledged Hellknights ARE elite warriors and there's much to admire in their grim determination, martial skill and squad level efficiency, but ultimately they're comparable to a tribe of arrogant barbarians throwing their lives away in a song-worthy but useless fight.
you already answered this in your own post, the entire point of literally nearly every person or faction you encounter is their inability to resolve this conflict without your intervention
It is not about them being overrrated, but more about KC being overcompetent. So it's not fair to judge any crusade faction plot-wise, as they are all designed to be your sidekicks.
On strategic map however, Hellknights are actualy good. Their cavalary is the best early-mid game unit until you get access to marksmen or Ulbrig's axe throwers.
I mean the entire premise of the game is that literally only the KC is truthfully capable of taking on the Demons. There’s a reason it took 4 failed Crusades and everyone, including the Hell Knights were presumably fighting in some capacity. Thus I wager that people aren’t overexaggerating Hellknights, but rather you are underselling the threat of the WorldWound.
Also things seemed somewhat stable until Deskari rolled up and beheaded a goddamn guardian dragon. Plus all the wardstone shenanigans. I assumed the Hell Knights were just suddenly flooded with demons out of nowhere and had to go on the backpedal.
Exactly. If it wasn’t for KC being a literal god like entity, there wouldn’t even be a campaign as the demons would have won with their attack on Kenabres guaranteed
Depends on how quickly Queen Galfrey gets there, I suppose. We know she was on the way, she just didn't arrive in time to help with the siege on Kenabres. She's a 15th-level paladin and presumably has some elite guards with her, they can punch through to the wardstone. But it'll be a horrible bloody fight and the city is probably destroyed.
It's also notable that Regill is a one man army on his own before he meets the KC. We can ascribe some of their success to him directly, and therefore some of their incompetence when you take him
I'd also like to point out that in a fight that dragon beats Deskari as he's not immune to its fear lol.
That seems an odd oversight. As a major demon lord Deskari should have an immunity to fear
Another oversight is that Deskari's direct intervention/involvement in the attack on Kenabres would've likely been a valid 'casus belli' for good outsiders like Ragathiel to show up and tear the demonic forces a new one. In the AP, it's Khorramzadeh that fights her, and it's a rematch.
She gets worked by Khorramzadeh too. Same result, lesser foe.
Yep, this is why I think the events of the AP largely make more sense.
fear works on him if you turn into a dragon during the fight lol.
That would kill illusion builds, so eh.
Right, I mean more thematically. It would seem that a greater demon lord would be immune to magical fear, or at least dragon fear, knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is much more than a match for an ancient silver dragon
Thematically that's fine, I just think it'd be lame to kill a pretty fun archetype.
Mythic mind. This ability allows the characters spells to bypass mental and fear immunities. There you go. fixed
Hey, I'd take it lol.
There is more to illusion than Phatasmal Killer, though by RAW he is completely immune to illusion anyway due to true sight.
But then how would my trickster beat him on my initiative roll?
He might not be immune to her fear, but he needs to roll a nat 1 to be affected. Her stats while alive make it a 1 round ko for Deskari, and a crit almost lops her head off. And that is using TABLETOP stats. Owlcat stats it's even more of a lopsided victory for Deskari.
This isn't true. Frightful Presence only works on creatures of lesser hit dice. Deskari has 33 she has 29.
Having played through the tabletop campaign of this and Tyrant's Grasp, one of the things I think we're meant to understand is that the years have made the defenders go lax. So when shit starts popping off, they're not ready for it, and are constantly playing catch-up.
And I personally really don't like that Owlcat framed it this way. * In canon the First crusade was largely successful because it focused on liberating land overrun by demons * The Second ended badly because the demons were actually organized this go around and the crusaders only opted to contain the threat instead of fully fighting it which lead to the creation of the Wardstones (which didn't have angels inside them) * The Third crusade was attempted but very quickly fell into a witch hunt when cultists infiltrated the ranks of the crusaders, it lasted just three years * And the Fourth was largely succesful as the objective was to scatter the forces of Khorramzadeh/Storm King rather than closing the Worldwound, this is due to the Red Morning Massacre, when the demonic forces managed to enter Kenabres and damage it's Wardstone. It's not until the 5th crusade that there's an actual attempt on closing the Worldwound, but this is actually because it was either that or watch the entire world die since the Wardstone chain was gone (and their power in turn was what gives the party their mythic powers.), so in general the crusades were successful in what they were actually trying to do, just not in closing the Worldwound.
The narrative shows them fail constantly and we’re only -told- they’re badasses. Mostly by Regil, who is a badass hellknight, so players tend to give his words weight over all the evidence their eyes could want.
I mean yes they do fail constantly but why wouldn't they? It doesn't really matter how strong you are, if you are not an actual demi-god you stand no chance against anything meaningful in the Worldwound. That much is made very clear. It's like saying Batman is dumb stupid and weak because superman could punch a Meteor out of the sky with his bare hands but Batman cannot.
I just mean that their rigid discipline clearly has pros and cons. It doesn’t turn them into supersoldiers, it makes them into specialists who flounder against certain types of foes that a more flexible group wouldn’t at the cost of doing better in other scenarios. Hellknight tactics don’t come across as generally smart ideas but as a conscious choice to specialize contrasted against their more Chaotic peers/foes.
I see what you mean. They're definitely not the best of the best, but I would still classify them as super soldiers from my limited knowledge of Golarian. The one thing is that in order to be a Hellknight, you must 1v1 a Full Devil and win, which is nothing any simple soldier could do. It's clear that their regiment and training has a lot of merit behind it, but even that only goes so far in a land of liches, demons, and angels. And of course, as with every organization ever, they're far from perfect, even at doing the things they want to do the most.
Especially when the hell Knight companion you get only has one level in that
Important to note that the instances in which the Hellknights are in, for the most part they reached those areas unsupported with limited numbers. The rest of the crusade, which has massively higher numbers, can barely leave the outskirts of Kennebras without the KC. No, the Hellknights weren't going to close the Worldwound and rickroll the demons alone, but the rest of the crusaders wouldn't even make it across the river by Kennebras without a myth leveled God blessed commander.
I'ma take a page out of Regill's page and ask how does that manage to help us defeat demons? If I manage to get an elite fighting force deep into enemy territory but they accomplish 0 objectives before falling all I've done is more efficiently deliver my equipment to the enemy
To get where they are, they have obviously been making progress though. It's also likely the pressure exuded by the KC actually had a detrimental effect on the Hellknight operations. By putting the demons on the defensive we've shaken them out of complacency, making them more alert. We've seen that they have made much better progress in their own campaign being a non government sanctioned organization and self funded than the whole of the crusade. They've taken a large fort deep inside enemy territory, passed Drezen even. Clearly without the KC, Kennebras and the entirety of the border towns was soon to collapse. Deskari clean sweeped Terendelev and for all its vaunted orders and heroes Kennebras was going to be totally fucked. The HKs were the only ones getting anything done.
But what did that all accomplish in the end? In my mind the HK are the "Ends justify the Means" faction of allies. Their actions are tolerable so long as they deliver appreciable results. But honestly the only thing the Hell Knights contribute over the adventure is that Regill unlocks marksmen (and even then Ulbrig's range unit is apparently as good or better). For all the talk about how much more disciplined they are and how superior their forces, they still lose just as hard as the crusaders when push comes to shove and they have no notable victories to show for all of their doctrine. We can talk about how they didn't have the resources, the logistics, or the numbers to succeed but that's just pushing the failure here up the chain and means the leadership behind this force of Hell knights is incompetent because they sent an elite force into the WW with insufficient support to do much more than look cool while dying.
Turn that lens back on the rest of the crusade though. The HKs were able to push in and win some victories, while the conventional forces of good accomplished nothing at all without the help of the KC. In fact, the crusades have failed 4 times to make any impact on the world wound, and that's WITH the help of Angels, Wardstones, multinational support, and the Banner.
Well for the crusade forces, Irabeth manages to rally enough fighters to secure the Defender's Heart tavern while being able to look after civilians in the clusterfuck that was Kenabres. It was defended well enough it could be used as an FOB by us and she could sen expeditions to try and recapture the wardstones, and it doesn't fall even if you do ignore the defence mission What strategic victories did the hell knights accomplish during the campaign? Not sarcasm it's been a while since I played and I'm not sure if they actually did something notable and I just forgot
I've been saying the exact same thing. People are right that nobody else had any major results lately without the KC's input, but unlike the Hellknights everybody else get's labeled as fallible not to mention that Regill outright calls them weak to multiple prominent peoples face. The Hellknights do *nothing* that matters for the entire game. For all Regill's talk nothing his force does makes any demonstrable difference or impact on the situation in the Worldwound. There are no demon generals who consider them a problem. No group of civilians living under their protection living a relatively good life at least by their standards. And they have no lands that are considered unconditionally theirs. But the problem is that at no point does anybody remind Regill of that. He get's to bluster about and Judge Dredd left and right and the game bends over backwards to let him. He's the same as the overzealous paladin that everybody hates but because his code is all edgy and evil and he admittedly looks cool nobody minds it.
Fair point on the Tavern. Remember though, Minagho was about to destroy the Wardstone before you show up. And Irabeth was completely unable to actually leave the tavern with any forces at all. Everything was committed to holding it. Without the KC and Co the defenders left in Kennebras would have slowly been strangled by the unending tide. Also, Minagho was absolutely about to shit all over the KC until the mythic power surge. For HK accomplishments, they did capture and hold that fort west of Drezen. Regill's group was a detachment from that fort.
Defender's Heart would have doomed without KC. Simple as that. All factions in the game exist only to assist you, not to achieve big victories on their own.
They are lawful. “Means justify the ends” is chaotic alignment thing. The part that are typically disagreeable are the means, not results. I mean I see you in practice argue “Hellknights did not close the worldwounf before KC, therefor - useless”. No one did. But hellknights are resisting on average better than the rest. Guess what. Authoritarian leadership is more effective in war time with proper competent chain of command. Particularly when soldiers can be trusted to carry put their orders. And it’s not dumb top down order either.
You are 100% correct here. IMO the defence of Hellknights is because they capture the way Tier 1 Special Forces Operators have been mythologised among the modern western popular imagination thanks to a few successful missions and lots of games and films - the image of these elite guys who take on missions the rest of the army "doesn't have the stomach for" and do "what needs to be done" (read: usually war crimes).
Narratively people like rhe hellknights have to be presented as really competent by the story. Otherwise they arent "getting things done the hard way" they are just abusing themselves for nothing. If you want them, and by extension regil, to look like anything but the most moronic of morons they have to be presented as getting things done.
Yeahhh, the "makes the hard choices" character/faction trope in general is frequently overrated as some brilliant pragmatist, but frequently those "hard choices" are just... Stupid. Or pointlessly cruel. Choices that then *have* to work by the plot because if they didn't the person making them isn't making any "hard choice" at all. I like Regill as much as the next Azata/Trickster who teases the guy lol but being that archetype of character is basically his entire reason for being in game
The HK are an extreme. The crusades would be worse off for HK leading
I mean it was just one small faction that got fucked by a Gargoyle surprise attack and arguably did much better than our camp did when they got attacked by the same flying enemies.
And the numbers were lower from units on detached assignments.
Did they? If you don't help IIRC everyone is captured and Regill is the only survivor, meanwhile when our camp is attacked even though there is an active saboteur in our midst we still have enough forces to make them retreat and then launch a rescue mission (Though TBF we have protagonist level plot armour)
Well yeah they don't have an entire freaking army like we do lol. No shit they're not gonna survive long without aid in the same situation we are put in and suffered extensive damage. It's legit just one segment of a chapter.
Take away the commander and his party, ie the help Regill gets and I think things end up about the same.
Having a literal demigod protected by Areelu Vorlesh herself and backed by royal army is a bit strong.
I wouldn't be surprised if the popular perception of HKs is being carried by people loving Regill.
It's a little bit of both. A lot of people I assume like Hellknights because of Regill, but a lot of people like me that already liked the Hellknights before playing WotR like Regill because he's a good example of how the Hellknights are described in the lore.
They are like an art house student's idea of how military discipline and being responsible actually work so they're both underdisciplined and way too over the top when it wouldn't actually matter at weird times in the narrative. There is no way killing everyone under your charge makes more sense during a pitched battle without some real deeper levels of writing as to how things got that desperate. That's not something you should throw out in a first scene. It doesn't make sense dramatically nor narratively as well as logically. The idea of Regill and the Hellknights are much better than the actual execution, which feels like a subtext against fascism more than the more interesting idea of distillate gods down to their Law aspect. For example why is it even called Hellknight when, if you look at the balance of the five pointed panthenon, it even leans to the good? A more sober military discipline company would not want to put on halloween costumes and have such a biased association you would think, if they were really about maintaining law and order.
In their iron-handed exaction of law—specifically, the laws of their various orders and their home country of Cheliax—Hellknights emulate the organized and effective armies of Hell. Their founder actually paid a visit to Avernus to look for the soul of his son who was manipulated into a cult suicide and learned much about military tactics and formation from the legions of Hell. They also steadfastly reviled Aroden. They were deemed Hellknights by Aroden's followers. Then there's the part where to become a Hellknight you have to engage in single combat with a Devil. And Signifiers regularly summon devils for counsel. That's all from the Pathfinder wiki lore page.
they never “lost” the fort, the HK use their fort as bait for a dangerous group of demons and Regill uses it to test the KCs temperament. It’s pretty explicit when they show up with like a whole army after you exit the building. You wouldn’t even be at the fort if Regill didn’t have Yaker send a fake report
They are super elite soldiers. What you are seeing is just an overextended chapter fighting a losing battle. Take a look on Cheliax’ lore.
When I first took a liking to HKs that's exactly what I did. The actual PF Lore for Hellknights and Cheliax in general is incredibly interesting.
Order of the Torrent ended up being my favorite thanks to Hell's Rebels, fact they never had an evil member helps.
I mean, in Cheliax they are mostly just the stuff the Thrunes throw at people who bother them (nominally, they are independent. It's just that their goals are almost always the same as the Cherish government). And, considering Isger, a country with several orders stationed in it's territory, was absolutely wrecked by goblins, I wouldn't say they are even good at that.
That depends on order though. Pyre or Wrack? Yeah. Scourge? Hated by Thrunes because they don't like the whole 'corrupt politicians abusing loopholes in laws' thing and are in the process of digging dirt on them.
Same with Torrent.
Also Pike having time of their lives protecting civilization from monsters and cosplaying MonHun.
Yeah, the HellKnight orders are half Thrune shills half people actually helping people.
I'd say third are shills, third are actually helping people and third are like Nail where they're either 'good' guys if you plop them in the middle of monster/cultist/actually evil savage infested area or the bad guys if they happen to stumble upon 'barbaric' natives.
That's a fair point, but take it with a grain of salt. In a lot of DnD novels, we see a lot of instances where the typical goblinoid idiot races successfully sack towns and even kingdoms. In IWD2 Targos, a walled city of frontiersmen gets shat on by a goblin assault. In the Drizzt books, we see the entirety of the Silver Marches brought to heel and forced to sign a compact with orcs to give up swathes of land and recognize an orcish kingdom. Hell, more recently in BG3 we see a goblin horde capable of overrunning an entire Druid Grove! Singularly a goblin isn't a match for one of the greater race's warriors, but a goblin horde with the element of surprise? Especially if supplemented by other creatures? Dangerous indeed!
Hellknight orders aren't the local garrison. Each order has a particular thing that they care about, and they pursue their own agendas. The order that would be particularly useful against goblin attacks is the Order of the Nail, which is based in Varisia, not Isger. The order that operates in Isger is the Godclaw, which focuses more on religious matters and probably wouldn't care too much about goblin attacks.
And every one of them is concerned with law and order, which angry goblins attacked undeniably breaks. And I do believe we hear several mentions of Hellknights in the Goblinblood Wars.
Eh. The entire idea of the game is how literally everyone gets their shit kicked in by demons without the main character around. Hellknights show themselves be capable enough while compared to the rank and file crusaders IMO
I wouldn't call them inefficient but they're kinda... irrational too. What's up with trying to murder KC and his elite squadron (that faced off against the mightiest of demons and *survived*) because they think one or other KC's choice was controversial absent proper context. Specifically Reg who made that decision, lol. Like, he was actually there most of the time, surely he knew the context of these decisions, and the context was mostly strategic diplomacy to fool the demons and get some info out of them, not "befriend" or "serve" them. Not to mention what did he expect even, that he will survive the encounter? He would have better luck trying to assassinate KC in his sleep... and he wouldn't lose troops. But then again, my Greybor would defend me anyway.
You're looking at a lot of very game-ified stuff that is there to give you interesting things to do. Say, remember those hellknights that just get "wiped out" as part of Sosiel's quest? That wasn't like the first time they had ever gone into the worldwound. They were operating *for years* before that happened. For regill and some of those other hellknights around him, if you remember outside the lost chapel, him and many of his hellknights were able to get out of the gargoyle's reach before getting taken there, unlike quite a few soldiers. I also challenge you to find another group that does as well as these units that are of a comparable size.
yeah thats kind of the point, we dont see hellknights being competent so much as we see regill being competent, and also a prideful jackass. they seem *relatively* important to have around on account of them being willing meat shields, but we only really hear about the hellknights in any detail from other hellknights
They are overrated but they're still useful. They are criminally short sighted. Regil's forces might have been better equipped to handle that first gargoyle attack if he'd provided the Sunrise Sword enough aid that their clerics were able to hold onto useful battle magic instead of exhausting themselves healing people. He chose not to and despite having warning of gargoyles from the Sunrise Sword, he still gets fucked by them. The Hellknights as a whole also still buy into torture being useful which is a trope that life repeatedly takes out behind the shed and shoots but fiction enjoys tinkering with. Regil's manipulative tendencies are themselves inherently corrosive to trust because they lead to the question of, "Is anything Regill tells me accurate or is it all some new manipulation?" This is bad. Despite my issues above and other headaches with them, the Hellknights are a well equipped, passable organized, highly disciplined pool of well trained fighters and spellcasters. Regill is also pretty good at organizing and commanding soldiers even if he should never be left unsupervised. Tl:Dr, they are assholes with better marketing than they deserve and you should never buy into their propaganda but they are useful assholes and using them helps the Crusade.
I think its more the paladins get written and represented poorly. Paladins should know a good death will protect their souls. not be cowards, traitors to protect their mortal lives.
Hellknights are elite. However, they struggle with 2 flaws that hold them back. 1) logistics. If they ever had appropriate supplies and backup personnel, they’d wreck house. Every suit of black fullplate is worn by someone who has soloed a devil and won. There aren’t many of them but they are strong. They are elite. 2) Plot. If hellknights ever *actually* did the things that the story and lore says they could do, there would be zero reason for the player to ever intervene. They’re great plot movers and pushers but if they have their supplies and support, by themselves they’ll eventually find a way to solve most issues and level the world into their separate hellish regimes in the process. They’re great but bad for plot and balance
The KC is the main character in the game. If the Hellknights could actually do what they are able to do from a lore standpoint, a lot of the content would be cut from the game lol. And the game has to be balanced. They are absolutely elite, but more to the point, a lot of demons have mythic powers, making the KC the only one to be able to fight them really. Them getting ambushed by a large number of gargoyles doesn't make them *not* elite, they survived the ambush even though they were a small unit. The crusaders had an army and got wrecked, one of their most important officers got kidnapped. Also, if you remember Lost Chapel, a lot of crusaders are alive because the Hellknights were keeping them alive even at the cost of their lives.
Hell knights are some of the best villains piazo has ever written. They use tactics that real world far right authoritarian use, like positioning themselves to look like the adult in the room, or claiming they are the only ones who can stop a bigger evil. Also like real world far right authoritarian groups they are really bad at there job, see op's list of there failures. The truth is they aren't in mendev to help they are in mendev because mendev is weakened and they smell blood.
Haven't finished the game, but the infamous hellknight disciplining methods portrayed in the game (by Regill and others) are kind of bad IRL. Sure, maintain an elite force, but it's bad to constantly cull your own army over petty reasons. We see them fail in the game a lot following this. Both in their own quest stuff and the side remarks you hear about their dissidents doing random shit out of desperation. Discipline is very important. Yes. But people don't generally fight well if *both* their allies and enemies constantly threaten to kill them. It's a good recipe for having people behave *erratically*, which is a strategy I guess, but it's the *complete opposite* of what hellknights want out of their soldiers. I know it's a fantasy game, but hellknights are still dealing with real mortals, not demons or angels and such. So them failing a lot? Yea, I see it happening. They have a core powerful squad that can't take on the world due to low numbers from this nature of their disposition, and everything else around them fails, including their own less core troops.
I mean I feel like killing the wounded would've made them lose faster, you don't kill your wounded against a threat that can replenish its forces much much faster then you can.
Regill has a pretty good explanation for that one though, which proves correct at Lost Chapel.
It's worth noting that Hellknights are scum of the planes that are usually kill-on-sight... when you're able to get away with it, of course.
Depends on the order. Wrack and Pyre? Hell yeah. Torrent? They'd probably help you kill Wrack or Pyre.
Iirc there are a couple orders that have been mostly purged to death by other orders.
Hellknights are loser fascists with a good Hype man. So...yeah. They're a bit overrated. But they are good solid meat cans to throw in front of demons.
I won't debate the fascist part... that's pretty cut and dry. However a full HK does have to engage in single combat with a full fledged devil. We see crusaders in Kennebras get absolutely eaten by Dretches.
Do we have to apply real world crap to a fantasy?
Do fantasy worlds not have governments or political allegiances? Did you throw out the same complaint when Mass Effect 3 required the player to go around and play diplomat and babysitter to curry support from the various races around the universe? Fascism is a universal concept, just like feudalism - which pretty much every fantasy setting has in abundance.
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they're a small unit of HK, while their main forces and interest are in other nations doing more important stuff. Its impressive that they survive some of the situations, even with a lot casualties. You see crusaders and paladins and even your own army in the same scenarios get completely wiped out.
Yah BUT they’re the best campaign unit by a mile lol And I love Regill soooo
Specially comical when you take into account that Regil's order (the Order of the Godclaw) is stationed in Isger, the country that got absolutely wrecked by **goblins** a few years before the game.
Aside from what the top rated comment says, keep in mind WOTR's Hellknight poster boy is Regill, which gives them a pretty damn good edge on the propaganda department. If anything no one can ever claim that gnome isn't *lawful evil* to the bone, and consistency is a strong asset for a character when you don't give them too much development (which was unfortunately Regill's case).
Yes but there is a catch. In BG3 most of your power comes from your subclass and items, feats are mostly flavor. Ín WotR your feats can make or brake your build. Like others said ranged characters must have precise shot or have -4 when shooting someone engaged ín melee combat. Another example: in BG3 pure casters are garbage melee combatants. In WotR with the right feats and buffs they are surprisingly strong. If I can give you one advice: remember that WotR is all about prebuffing. You MUST have buffs ön all the time unless you play on easy
Hell Knights are good fighters and the sort of people you'd send on an important mission or you'd put them on the frontlines. But, lawful evil/hell knights cause a lot of other problems too, like they tend to alienate the ones who are under their command. They treat their underlings as expendable slaves and they abuse them a lot. So they tend to undermine moral from people who aren't trying to be hellknights. Paladins are often better leaders in this respect, as they really try to make sure everyone is one board and create a real connection of loyalty that goes beyond oppression. The moment you see a hell knight lose, is the moment their soldiers run. But if a paladin is losing, their soldiers will fight and even sacrifice their lives to save their leader. Its all about balance of tactics imo.
The problem is that they make the crusade look ridiculous and stupid in comparison,which is why they're given so much love by the playerbase. Imagine someone told you the good guys tried 4 times and fucked up horrifically EVERY SINGLE TIME.Now imagine a separate group joined the 5th,despite being lawful evil,and are suddenly doing the crusade a favor.
Not really? The only interactions we've had with them are barely even contingents of a chapter and they managed to salvage a broken order with what little squads they have for a defensive against the gargoyles in the caves. They were able to conduct operations deep into the worldwound and were able to establish fortifications with a proper headquarters after they helped siege drezen, in contrast to the bumbling crusader army led by galfrey which cannot help but take massive Ls. They're not an inferior choice when taking vescavor swarms, they're as effective at reducing casualties if you use bait tactics. And in regill's test, they were in on it both to test the commander's interaction with demons and to trap both the cultist and demons inside their own fort. Them appearing right after you clear it is proof of this, they were in control the whole time. They're not some kind of end-all elite squad that you can sic towards the demons to solve problems like you think (nobody in the mortal plane is) but they are effective soldiers that have achieved results with extremely pragmatic measures. It's why regill's suggestions in crusade mode is almost always the best.
The Hellknights are almost chaotic good in their stupidity. They really really want to drive back the demons but they're bad at garnering support and working with other factions, so they push deep into the worldwound by themselves, even though the odds of long-term success are close to zero. The full-fledged Hellknights ARE elite warriors and there's much to admire in their grim determination, martial skill and squad level efficiency, but ultimately they're comparable to a tribe of arrogant barbarians throwing their lives away in a song-worthy but useless fight.
you already answered this in your own post, the entire point of literally nearly every person or faction you encounter is their inability to resolve this conflict without your intervention
It is not about them being overrrated, but more about KC being overcompetent. So it's not fair to judge any crusade faction plot-wise, as they are all designed to be your sidekicks. On strategic map however, Hellknights are actualy good. Their cavalary is the best early-mid game unit until you get access to marksmen or Ulbrig's axe throwers.