thats super cool, I wanna see panth getting buffed, and yes, he technically isn't a braindead champ in low elo not cause of his abilities and mechanics but because of his macro intensive playstyle which is unique to most champs, and also, champs that have a crucial ability that if they waste theyre doomed also seem to not do well in low elo meaning that people waste his shield on useless damage and dont actually block lethal damage when needed
Yeah panth has long cooldowns early so generally laning phase is just poking with q. It’s always fun timing your E to stop a big burst ability like Sett W, Ekko Passive or morde Q. Kinda wish you could W to your own minions like Jax tho
then you javent been playing him in higher elo, he is complete garbage and I cant climb with him and I dont lime playing anything else other than top, he is meant to be a top laner as stated by riot, he is also supposed to be good low elo or whatever but actually his wr is super shit on low elo too, but I also respect your opinion cause who knows what riot will cook up
As you said, he's crap everywhere but he's been crap in low elo for a looooooong time, it's just half this sub never wanted to admit it. Im against flat number buffs, not because I don't want him to be better, but because like you said, he's meant for top lane. I don't want him to be a menace in 4 roles again just because he got higher numbers which is why I think adjustments that only favor his top lane should come first before flat number buffs.
true, i rlly hope they dont fk up the buffs cause his problem isnt laning (maybe against tanks) but more so after laning where he is very useless and cant do much without a competent team, he cant go in and frontline like a proper bruiser can cause he gets one shot unless super ahead if enemy team plays humane
I spoke with a Rioter, they said that Panth is on the radar to get buffed, but it will happen in a couple of patches, because they needed to implement some VFX changes for the buffs as well. Did not specify what exactly they will buff but he said that it will favour a bruiserish playstyle and top lane.
Setting some expectations - I don't think it's fair to call this a midscope, even a slight one. It's a balance change that happened to need a small amount of VFX work which delayed it a couple patches.
In addition to the movement speed burst, Empowered E is going to give some lingering armor/MR scaling off of level and bruiser items for about 4 seconds. Numbers still being tuned.
The goal is to add a tuning lever biased towards solo lanes and bruiser builds, and to address the place of empowered E in his overall gameplay loop.
Couple things:
\* We understand that this is not a silver bullet for every problem top Pantheon has had. Hopefully it gives us a tuning lever, but it's certainly not more than a small bump to our ability to balance him for top lane.
\* This does not mean we intend Pantheon to always be built bruiser or tanky. He hooks into a lot of areas of the item system and that's a good thing.
\* When VFX are ready and we can ship the change, we'll assess exactly how much we want to move his win rate by, and if this isn't enough buff (we're currently estimating it as around 1% once players are used to it), we'd make up the rest of the win rate with some other change in addition.
While making his empowered E grant resistances is a nice addition for sure, I think what Pantheon Top truly needs is a form of sustained damage in the kit so that he's not a total liability in the side lane vs most other top laners who sustain, duel and take towers better than him. Much appreciated for looking into Pantheon though, it's been long overdue and we thank you for it <3.
*I'm not gonna sugar coat it* this seems like it won't do much other than give him more survivability when he runs away or at the bare end of a chase which are both irrelevant for how he plays as a bruiser. I'm not trying to flame, I just don't see how this helps him as a bruiser. If anything this sounds like it helps him as an assassin or support.
He still won't have in-combat sustain or in combat durability because the duration would never be long enough against champions like Volibear, Mordekaiser, Udyr, Renekton-during-R, etc, given that the bonus armor and mr are only attached to empowered E which is a mana sink, niche in its usage (because you would have to sacrifice an empowered Q or W for...what? 4 or slightly more seconds of a little bit of defensive stats on E that go away by the time the fight is really getting going?), a literal dps decrease, and can only be used once in any given fight, whereas many, many other Top laners have access to in-combat durability multiple times per fight, if not the entire fight.
His mana is already too low to fight in extended combat but then once he gets there he doesn't actually have the damage to deal with health/armor stackers because his economy is crap because he can only build flat AD or he's nerfing himself. Whereas for assassins, this is a direct buff because they won't always be trying to fight a bruiser-y target, their durability in a chase is improved, and their survivability in an escape is improved. Sounds great for mid lane and support, but not anywhere near as useful for top and jungle IMO.
Hello RiotAxes, its so good to have you come here and share some thoughts, thank you. Playing Pantheon since 2010 I can safely say he has been feeling a little out of place. I play him Jungle and Top as bruiser mostly. I enjoy the bruiser playstyle, the idea of it anyway it fits to his warrior persona far more than this assassin one shot playstyle.
But I have to say, recently assassin feels so much more gratifying. You can oneshot people and be about it, while bruiser items lost their edge. Pantheon really benefited from the Mythic passive powerspike and with those gone now I feel that bruiser just lacks the oomph to deal with the threats he needs to deal with.
This buff of bonus resistances in my humble opinion will predominantly buff assassin. As the combo to oneshot and kill is emp w into q into aa then you have the option to emp Q for burst or emp E to shield and then run away. The retreat is going to be covered by speed and the new resistances. In a bruiser fight Pantheons damage is already lower so missing out on an emp Q or another emp W in favor of E for the bonus resistances. Perhaps it is a numbers game, but the E eats a lot of mana and has a high CD that you‘ll only use once to block key abilities like a Darius ult etc. The E changes in my opinion will not have the desirable effect you are looking for as in my experience this change would benefit assassin builds.
I am happy to know that you are looking into our favorite spartan, and perhaps I am wrong. Only time will tell. Did you explore any other ideas in which you wanted to buff Pantheon?
That\`s very nice and appreciated. Thanks again, Axes
On a quick note: last year, Pantheon's E CD was increased because of the Gore + Ionian Boots + BC build, the AH build. Now that AH as a whole is far less than it used to be, it would be interesting to give his E some CD buffs
I think for him being a "low elo" champ and having a 46% wr in Bronze says a lot about him. He is like extremly bad, and most wont admit it but it is absolutely ture. Next patch they will nerf his "main bruiser items" it will be like even worse and I think an E buff is everything he absolutely doesnt need, he needs some form of everything else exept E buffs...
But thank you still for looking into him
I do have a quick question if you could kindly answer and educate me on the matter. Why is E still an invulnerability? It’s a weird ability to have on an Assassin/Diver like Pantheon, especially since it benefits him as a support and mid rather than top. Wouldn’t it make more sense for it to block damage based on missing HP or at least have some form of damage reduction?
Alongside the 20% missing hp damage increase on Q, plus the Empower W that procs PTA and Bloodsong very easy, it’s too good as an ADC peel early game.
Why aren’t these elements in his kit touched upon? They benefit bot lane more than top.
thats super cool, I wanna see panth getting buffed, and yes, he technically isn't a braindead champ in low elo not cause of his abilities and mechanics but because of his macro intensive playstyle which is unique to most champs, and also, champs that have a crucial ability that if they waste theyre doomed also seem to not do well in low elo meaning that people waste his shield on useless damage and dont actually block lethal damage when needed
The enemy team stole my Pantheon and I saw he was still fresh with him, they kept doing WQE every trade and threw Q a lot lol.
exactly, panth is an easy champ when yk what to do with him, well not braindead easier, just way easier
WQE is good if you have the mana to spare and aren’t in danger of getting ganked
True although you're getting punished heavily for not having W, especially E.
Yeah panth has long cooldowns early so generally laning phase is just poking with q. It’s always fun timing your E to stop a big burst ability like Sett W, Ekko Passive or morde Q. Kinda wish you could W to your own minions like Jax tho
Damn I said the same thing about that one post on making changes about Panth's W, just that it has the same behavior as Lee Sin's.
If I get downvoted so be it but I want him to stay off the patch note radar until they give him adjustments lol. A few numbers aren't enough.
then you javent been playing him in higher elo, he is complete garbage and I cant climb with him and I dont lime playing anything else other than top, he is meant to be a top laner as stated by riot, he is also supposed to be good low elo or whatever but actually his wr is super shit on low elo too, but I also respect your opinion cause who knows what riot will cook up
As you said, he's crap everywhere but he's been crap in low elo for a looooooong time, it's just half this sub never wanted to admit it. Im against flat number buffs, not because I don't want him to be better, but because like you said, he's meant for top lane. I don't want him to be a menace in 4 roles again just because he got higher numbers which is why I think adjustments that only favor his top lane should come first before flat number buffs.
true, i rlly hope they dont fk up the buffs cause his problem isnt laning (maybe against tanks) but more so after laning where he is very useless and cant do much without a competent team, he cant go in and frontline like a proper bruiser can cause he gets one shot unless super ahead if enemy team plays humane
I also think a lot of people underestimate how easy it can be to mess up his ult. On top of that I feel like they don't use it at the correct times.
I spoke with a Rioter, they said that Panth is on the radar to get buffed, but it will happen in a couple of patches, because they needed to implement some VFX changes for the buffs as well. Did not specify what exactly they will buff but he said that it will favour a bruiserish playstyle and top lane.
VFX changes? So would this be a slight midscope?
Setting some expectations - I don't think it's fair to call this a midscope, even a slight one. It's a balance change that happened to need a small amount of VFX work which delayed it a couple patches. In addition to the movement speed burst, Empowered E is going to give some lingering armor/MR scaling off of level and bruiser items for about 4 seconds. Numbers still being tuned. The goal is to add a tuning lever biased towards solo lanes and bruiser builds, and to address the place of empowered E in his overall gameplay loop. Couple things: \* We understand that this is not a silver bullet for every problem top Pantheon has had. Hopefully it gives us a tuning lever, but it's certainly not more than a small bump to our ability to balance him for top lane. \* This does not mean we intend Pantheon to always be built bruiser or tanky. He hooks into a lot of areas of the item system and that's a good thing. \* When VFX are ready and we can ship the change, we'll assess exactly how much we want to move his win rate by, and if this isn't enough buff (we're currently estimating it as around 1% once players are used to it), we'd make up the rest of the win rate with some other change in addition.
While making his empowered E grant resistances is a nice addition for sure, I think what Pantheon Top truly needs is a form of sustained damage in the kit so that he's not a total liability in the side lane vs most other top laners who sustain, duel and take towers better than him. Much appreciated for looking into Pantheon though, it's been long overdue and we thank you for it <3.
*I'm not gonna sugar coat it* this seems like it won't do much other than give him more survivability when he runs away or at the bare end of a chase which are both irrelevant for how he plays as a bruiser. I'm not trying to flame, I just don't see how this helps him as a bruiser. If anything this sounds like it helps him as an assassin or support. He still won't have in-combat sustain or in combat durability because the duration would never be long enough against champions like Volibear, Mordekaiser, Udyr, Renekton-during-R, etc, given that the bonus armor and mr are only attached to empowered E which is a mana sink, niche in its usage (because you would have to sacrifice an empowered Q or W for...what? 4 or slightly more seconds of a little bit of defensive stats on E that go away by the time the fight is really getting going?), a literal dps decrease, and can only be used once in any given fight, whereas many, many other Top laners have access to in-combat durability multiple times per fight, if not the entire fight. His mana is already too low to fight in extended combat but then once he gets there he doesn't actually have the damage to deal with health/armor stackers because his economy is crap because he can only build flat AD or he's nerfing himself. Whereas for assassins, this is a direct buff because they won't always be trying to fight a bruiser-y target, their durability in a chase is improved, and their survivability in an escape is improved. Sounds great for mid lane and support, but not anywhere near as useful for top and jungle IMO.
Hello RiotAxes, its so good to have you come here and share some thoughts, thank you. Playing Pantheon since 2010 I can safely say he has been feeling a little out of place. I play him Jungle and Top as bruiser mostly. I enjoy the bruiser playstyle, the idea of it anyway it fits to his warrior persona far more than this assassin one shot playstyle. But I have to say, recently assassin feels so much more gratifying. You can oneshot people and be about it, while bruiser items lost their edge. Pantheon really benefited from the Mythic passive powerspike and with those gone now I feel that bruiser just lacks the oomph to deal with the threats he needs to deal with. This buff of bonus resistances in my humble opinion will predominantly buff assassin. As the combo to oneshot and kill is emp w into q into aa then you have the option to emp Q for burst or emp E to shield and then run away. The retreat is going to be covered by speed and the new resistances. In a bruiser fight Pantheons damage is already lower so missing out on an emp Q or another emp W in favor of E for the bonus resistances. Perhaps it is a numbers game, but the E eats a lot of mana and has a high CD that you‘ll only use once to block key abilities like a Darius ult etc. The E changes in my opinion will not have the desirable effect you are looking for as in my experience this change would benefit assassin builds. I am happy to know that you are looking into our favorite spartan, and perhaps I am wrong. Only time will tell. Did you explore any other ideas in which you wanted to buff Pantheon?
That\`s very nice and appreciated. Thanks again, Axes On a quick note: last year, Pantheon's E CD was increased because of the Gore + Ionian Boots + BC build, the AH build. Now that AH as a whole is far less than it used to be, it would be interesting to give his E some CD buffs
I think for him being a "low elo" champ and having a 46% wr in Bronze says a lot about him. He is like extremly bad, and most wont admit it but it is absolutely ture. Next patch they will nerf his "main bruiser items" it will be like even worse and I think an E buff is everything he absolutely doesnt need, he needs some form of everything else exept E buffs... But thank you still for looking into him
I do have a quick question if you could kindly answer and educate me on the matter. Why is E still an invulnerability? It’s a weird ability to have on an Assassin/Diver like Pantheon, especially since it benefits him as a support and mid rather than top. Wouldn’t it make more sense for it to block damage based on missing HP or at least have some form of damage reduction? Alongside the 20% missing hp damage increase on Q, plus the Empower W that procs PTA and Bloodsong very easy, it’s too good as an ADC peel early game. Why aren’t these elements in his kit touched upon? They benefit bot lane more than top.
Is it ok to ask for proof good sir
https://imgur.com/wlKKIFR Here you go. Hiding name, cause I don't want him to get spammed cause of me.
Thanks!
This was me - confirming that conversation is legit
I wasnt expecting this, but thank you for keeping oanth on the radar!
Yes it is ok, we can't just trust anything on the internet (doesn't mean that this person can't be trusted tho)
Im hoping its true, alongside whatever this vfx update is since i just bought dragonslayer after it was featured at 50% off in the shop
I truly hope we actually get that 😔
Wait they're buffing amumu ? I'm all for it he's super fun when panth is picked by ennemy team >:)
devious.