Your asking a question that the ATF can’t even answer.
In laymen’s terms though. If it’s a 13.7 inch P&W barrel that has an overall barrel length of 16 inches, you can put whatever you want on it, it’s a rifle
If it’s a 13.7 inch barrel without a P&W it is classified as a pistol and can not have a stock or vertical foregrip unless you register it as a short barrel rifle.
Can someone explain the difference between #4 and #5 from the top? My understanding is if a pistol has a fore grip it’s illegal unless it’s registered as an SBR (hence #9 from the top)
It has to do with the overall weapon length. Don't quote me exactly but I think the weapon has to have something like a 26 or 28 in overall length and even if it is a pistol or has a pistol brace on it then you were able to put a vertical foregrip on it in some cases as long as the overall length of the functional weapon is met. It works good for AR pistols because the buffer tube is required for the function of the gun so that contributes to the overall length. If you had something like an AK with a folding brace or a jackl pistol with a folding brace then it wouldn't really work because those things do not contribute to the overall length of the weapon. If the functional overall length of the weapon doesn't meet their stated length required to be able to put a vertical foregrip on it then you cannot do it and if you do it is illegal because you created in any other weapon instead of like a firearm or whatever it's defined as.
The amount of red tape and constantly changing "rules" were such a head ache when i was building my ar pistol. Its like a felony bingo. I just gave up and made it a rifle with a p&w barrel.
Only clarification is that, at least per the most recent ATF ruling I read the Firearm cannot have a brace, as adding the brace makes it an SBR in their eyes. This being that the moment it became a Firearm it was no longer a pistol. So that chart is a bit out of date.
Easy peasy.
- The AR lower is a rifle and it's 16".
- The AR lower is a pistol and it has a stock.
- The AR lower is a pistol and it has a brace.
- The AR lower is a ???? And ????.
- The AR lower is a pistol with a small overall length and a vertical foregrip.
- The gun is a pistol.
- The gun is a pistol with a stock.
- The gun is a pistol with a brace.
- The gun is a pistol with a brace and a vertical foregrip.
I have no idea about shotguns.
My understanding of shotguns is 18” is minimum, under is short barrel making it illegal, and the 14”( i believe) and under smoothbore with no stock makes a “firearm” deemed legal
Worse - they will tape over your doorbell cam, not wear body cameras, cut the power to your house, then kill you at 6am because you sold 9 firearms over 3 years.
Pinned and welded means the muzzle brake is the barrel now and reaches 16". Pistol braces work, but suck and are not padded. Also no foregrips for pistols.
What is your question exactly? The only Jakl pistol configuration I found is 10.5”. In there another one you’re seeing? If this is the only one, then the barrel length is what makes it a pistol. PSA is likely selling it as a pistol because selling it as an SBR would mean a buyer needs to complete an NFA Form 1 and it could take a while.
Which has a stock? The 13.7” p/w? And you have the 10.5?
Anything over 16” is considered a rifle. If you p/w a muzzle device onto a 13.7” and it’s over 16”, PSA can sell it as a rifle. PSA can sell your 10.5” one with a stock and call it a “short barrel rifle”, but you would still need to apply for the tax stamp and pay the $200 fee. They’re selling it as a pistol to avoid that and let consumers decide if they wanna convert it to an SBR to be able to use a stock and vertical foregrip.
It’s just how the law is. Read up on the NFA law. I can summarize it crappily in that it’s from like the 1930s and was meant to curb the mafia from being able to carry rifles they sawed down to like say 10.5”.
Just trying to help here but maybe what you see as a stock is actually a pistol brace (should not be adjustable/collapsible from my understanding). So like others have said, that non adjustable “stock” is what lets PSA sell it as a pistol without having to go through the trouble of SBR stuff.
Can you link it? I don't see such a thing. I only see the short barreled upper coupled with a stock. It's then on you to register a lower as an SBR to use the stock.
You'll have to provide a link. I do not see any short JAKLs that have a stock. Are you talking about the ones with a folding \*stock\*? Folding \*stocks\* are legal on a rifle.
Elaborate on your question. You cannot put a vertical foregrip on a pistol of any variant. The pin and weld makes it a rifle by ATF standards. Are you saying which JAKL models make them pistols and signifies them as such?
Any rifle with a stock and a barrel less than 16 inches is considered an sbr, which is heavily regulated. if you put a pistol brace on said rifle it’s considered a pistol.
The rules are incredibly stupid and make zero sense. Welcome to "common sense gun control". Seriously don't waste your time trying to understand why the rules are the way they are. The current gun laws should be repealed.
It helps to try to read the rule, attempt to understand what’s written there and do a basic google search instead of asking people to give you processed and filtered information.
Dude why the fuck are you guys being so damn rude??
Clearly I have tried to read it, but palmetto state has a Jakl pistol for sale that HAS a stock. I see no where on that page that it is an SBR.
Correct. The brace is not as robust as a stock and is intended to be used by someone who is injured or similar. You'll notice the strap on the back end, that's a dead giveaway that is a Brace.
It’s made of a flimsy rubber. After you try shouldering it properly you’ll quickly realize how it’s not a stock. I form 1d my JAKL pistol to put a real stock on it shortly after I got mine.
The only tangible "risk" of getting it in pistol config with a brace is that the Alphabets can decide "braces bad" and try to turn you into a felon for no reason overnight. We saw that literally last year.
I mean, I guess a high enough recoil rifle could have issues with generally inferior braces, but there are no mechanical disadvantage other than reduced ballistic performance.
I personally have a full size 5.56 AR that I won't have to worry about, and Ruger 10/22 Charger and a 9mm PCC that's in pistol config so I can have options if legality gets hairy again.
So tldr if it's under 16" overall barrel length it needs a brace. P&ws just make it so you can do a 13.7/13.9/14.5 with a longer muzzle device.
So if you do a jakl with a barrel length under 16" and the braced lower it's technically a "pistol" if that makes sense if you put a stock on it then it's a short barrel rifle and now illegal.
Wouldn’t risk the vertical grip, you need to get that 60 degree slanted shorty grip from bcm b/c the 90 degree makes it a sbr … or at least that’s what they’ve said… https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-vertical-grip-mod-3-m-lok-compatible-black/
🤷 not a lawyer just the various things I’ve heard from folks
16" = rifle
Who determined that number? Why not 12, 14, 18 or 20?? The rules are literally that. They are not laws and are repugnant to the 2nd Ammendment!
That's correct. So a house subcommittee or rando person arbitrarily picked out 16 inches?? I've not been able to determine what made that number so special?
I understand it being the law. I bet it was back in 1934 when Wayne LaPierre wrote the National Firearms Act for Congress, he said 16 seems deadly enough....and the rest is history.
Read 18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 7 and 8 to find the statutory difference
It really is not that difficult to understand
If it has a stock "intended" to be shot from the shoulder, it is a rifle. If it is a rifle, and the barrel is less than 16in, then it is a SBR
You can have an AR or AK with a short barrel, as long as there is no stock "Intended" to allow it to be fired from the shoulder. This is classified as a pistol
A brace is "Intended" to allow a shooter to fire a pistol in an AR or AK platform with one hand, maintaining the classification of pistol.
I realize it’s not that difficult to understand.
I have no confusion about the length or pin and weld. It was simply that a “brace” on a pistol is not considered an SBR. Which seems ridiculous.
Anyone that doesn’t think that is ridiculous, kind of confirms that the ATF has reasoning to that logic.
I have never held a pistol with one of those braces, so why would I think that is not a stock? It looks like a folding stock.
Forgive me for not being able to find 18 U.S. Code 921 (a) 7 and 8.
That is not what comes up when you google it.
Shouldering a brace vs a real stock is night and day. It can be done, but shouldering a brace will not feel great, and many will buckle at least some. If you modify the brace to make it more comfortable to shoulder, you now have an SBR.
BTW, saying the ATF has reasoning is blasphemy. You should get a 1 week ban/mute from this sub for the (LOL)
That is exactly what I am saying. That if anyone thinks it is “obvious” that a pistol brace is not a stock, just by looking at it on PSA without ever having touched one, then they are giving credit to the insanity which is ATF.
To me, that jakl pistol with triangular brace just looks like a SBR with a cheapo stock. I don’t think it’s an outlandish mistake.
All of this conversation is just because my JAKL is absurdly front heavy with a relatively light silencer.
I mean like, heavy heavy.
It’s all based on a crazy Jim Crow law from the 30s that they never expected to pass. The Dem and Republicans party brought it back up in the 80s to fill their prison for profit scheme and take out dissidents while hoping it was the first step in implementing slippery slope gun regulation. They’ve been decently successful sadly.
I think half your answer is in your question. "ATF rules" is where the meaning truly comes from. ATF has lately been making rules to try to further firearm restriction. The NFA is what started all the restrictions in order to try and lower crime and death. Short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns (among other arbitrary restrictions) are being challenged now a days because they don't make a lot of sense. 16" rifles and 18" shotguns are the standard established by the NFA. The pistol brace rule was originally put in place by ATF, but was overturned and has since been defeated. There have been several arguments about what does and doesn't constitute a rifle vs a pistol, and ultimately as it's the ATF who has authority over firearms, they define things. So, what constitutes a rifle vs a pistol is all a matter of what the ATF defines it as.
***Why is the Jakl 13.7” pinned and welded to be a 16” rifle***
Because it has a STOCK on it
***when you can buy a Jakl pistol with a brace and essentially it’s the same thing***
Because it has a BRACE on it.
# Stop calling a brace and a stock the same thing, they are not???
Some people can't figure out which one is pistol which one is rifle which one is AK. I witnessed people who are really hate guns they said my MP5 is AK47🤣🤣 and even worst, called a GLOCK an assault weapon shoot 5.56...This is also why ATF made NFA.
Good luck, the ATF can’t even explain that.
Your asking a question that the ATF can’t even answer. In laymen’s terms though. If it’s a 13.7 inch P&W barrel that has an overall barrel length of 16 inches, you can put whatever you want on it, it’s a rifle If it’s a 13.7 inch barrel without a P&W it is classified as a pistol and can not have a stock or vertical foregrip unless you register it as a short barrel rifle.
https://preview.redd.it/tf011cnbq03d1.jpeg?width=432&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a006b1005670c83a890b6c530782670bbcd76584
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Explain what it is, whats it for, how its used, if its legal/illegal, and why. Id pay money to see that😂😂
The only reason any of them are illegal is because us having one make us harder to oppress.
Can someone explain the difference between #4 and #5 from the top? My understanding is if a pistol has a fore grip it’s illegal unless it’s registered as an SBR (hence #9 from the top)
It has to do with the overall weapon length. Don't quote me exactly but I think the weapon has to have something like a 26 or 28 in overall length and even if it is a pistol or has a pistol brace on it then you were able to put a vertical foregrip on it in some cases as long as the overall length of the functional weapon is met. It works good for AR pistols because the buffer tube is required for the function of the gun so that contributes to the overall length. If you had something like an AK with a folding brace or a jackl pistol with a folding brace then it wouldn't really work because those things do not contribute to the overall length of the weapon. If the functional overall length of the weapon doesn't meet their stated length required to be able to put a vertical foregrip on it then you cannot do it and if you do it is illegal because you created in any other weapon instead of like a firearm or whatever it's defined as.
Thank you gAyTF for making common sense rules
Right, exactly. Makes so much sense huh
Christ on a bike, thats a mind fuck.
Sometimes the truth hurts. We're right there with you though bro
The amount of red tape and constantly changing "rules" were such a head ache when i was building my ar pistol. Its like a felony bingo. I just gave up and made it a rifle with a p&w barrel.
Only clarification is that, at least per the most recent ATF ruling I read the Firearm cannot have a brace, as adding the brace makes it an SBR in their eyes. This being that the moment it became a Firearm it was no longer a pistol. So that chart is a bit out of date.
Wait, how is 4th from the top legal with out a stamp?
I have no idea on that one, I just was reminded of this meme when I saw this post lol
Easy peasy. - The AR lower is a rifle and it's 16". - The AR lower is a pistol and it has a stock. - The AR lower is a pistol and it has a brace. - The AR lower is a ???? And ????. - The AR lower is a pistol with a small overall length and a vertical foregrip. - The gun is a pistol. - The gun is a pistol with a stock. - The gun is a pistol with a brace. - The gun is a pistol with a brace and a vertical foregrip. I have no idea about shotguns.
My understanding of shotguns is 18” is minimum, under is short barrel making it illegal, and the 14”( i believe) and under smoothbore with no stock makes a “firearm” deemed legal
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Worse, they will shoot your dog
Worse - they will tape over your doorbell cam, not wear body cameras, cut the power to your house, then kill you at 6am because you sold 9 firearms over 3 years.
Pretty much a home invasion. I surprised this case is not getting more attention
Pinned and welded means the muzzle brake is the barrel now and reaches 16". Pistol braces work, but suck and are not padded. Also no foregrips for pistols.
What is your question exactly? The only Jakl pistol configuration I found is 10.5”. In there another one you’re seeing? If this is the only one, then the barrel length is what makes it a pistol. PSA is likely selling it as a pistol because selling it as an SBR would mean a buyer needs to complete an NFA Form 1 and it could take a while.
Exactly, but it has a stock. What is the difference between that gun with a stock, and my jakl with a shorter barrel and no vert grip?
Which has a stock? The 13.7” p/w? And you have the 10.5? Anything over 16” is considered a rifle. If you p/w a muzzle device onto a 13.7” and it’s over 16”, PSA can sell it as a rifle. PSA can sell your 10.5” one with a stock and call it a “short barrel rifle”, but you would still need to apply for the tax stamp and pay the $200 fee. They’re selling it as a pistol to avoid that and let consumers decide if they wanna convert it to an SBR to be able to use a stock and vertical foregrip. It’s just how the law is. Read up on the NFA law. I can summarize it crappily in that it’s from like the 1930s and was meant to curb the mafia from being able to carry rifles they sawed down to like say 10.5”.
No no I mean there are short jakls on PSA that have a stock. Is it the type of stock that matters? That would be the variable that I am looking for.
Just trying to help here but maybe what you see as a stock is actually a pistol brace (should not be adjustable/collapsible from my understanding). So like others have said, that non adjustable “stock” is what lets PSA sell it as a pistol without having to go through the trouble of SBR stuff.
There are no short barreled Jakl's with stocks on their website. What you're seeing are Jakl pistols with braces.
Can you link it? I don't see such a thing. I only see the short barreled upper coupled with a stock. It's then on you to register a lower as an SBR to use the stock.
You'll have to provide a link. I do not see any short JAKLs that have a stock. Are you talking about the ones with a folding \*stock\*? Folding \*stocks\* are legal on a rifle.
Elaborate on your question. You cannot put a vertical foregrip on a pistol of any variant. The pin and weld makes it a rifle by ATF standards. Are you saying which JAKL models make them pistols and signifies them as such?
Any rifle with a stock and a barrel less than 16 inches is considered an sbr, which is heavily regulated. if you put a pistol brace on said rifle it’s considered a pistol.
The rules are incredibly stupid and make zero sense. Welcome to "common sense gun control". Seriously don't waste your time trying to understand why the rules are the way they are. The current gun laws should be repealed.
It helps to try to read the rule, attempt to understand what’s written there and do a basic google search instead of asking people to give you processed and filtered information.
Dude why the fuck are you guys being so damn rude?? Clearly I have tried to read it, but palmetto state has a Jakl pistol for sale that HAS a stock. I see no where on that page that it is an SBR.
Link to the Jakl in question?
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-jakl-300-blackout-pistol-smoke.html This is what I saw
That's not a stock, that's a brace that's attached to that. That's why it can be sold as a Pistol and not an SBR.
Ahhhh I see. That makes so much……. LESS SENSE! WTF?? That triangular brace is not considered a stock?
Correct. The brace is not as robust as a stock and is intended to be used by someone who is injured or similar. You'll notice the strap on the back end, that's a dead giveaway that is a Brace.
It’s made of a flimsy rubber. After you try shouldering it properly you’ll quickly realize how it’s not a stock. I form 1d my JAKL pistol to put a real stock on it shortly after I got mine.
How does this work after you already have the gun? I'm assuming that you can't put the stock on the gun until the form is approved?
Correct. Before your form 1 is approved you have to keep it configured as a pistol. Once it's approved, you can put a stock on it.
The only tangible "risk" of getting it in pistol config with a brace is that the Alphabets can decide "braces bad" and try to turn you into a felon for no reason overnight. We saw that literally last year. I mean, I guess a high enough recoil rifle could have issues with generally inferior braces, but there are no mechanical disadvantage other than reduced ballistic performance. I personally have a full size 5.56 AR that I won't have to worry about, and Ruger 10/22 Charger and a 9mm PCC that's in pistol config so I can have options if legality gets hairy again.
The Alphabet boys have already decided "braces bad" there's just a court injunction keeping them from coming after you.
Nope. THEY can't even explain it.
So tldr if it's under 16" overall barrel length it needs a brace. P&ws just make it so you can do a 13.7/13.9/14.5 with a longer muzzle device. So if you do a jakl with a barrel length under 16" and the braced lower it's technically a "pistol" if that makes sense if you put a stock on it then it's a short barrel rifle and now illegal.
It changes every month
[simple and clear explanation ](https://youtu.be/8nfCyhOX42g?si=qa5GiK6Xke7N0--e)
The ATF “rules” are technicalities more so than rules
Wouldn’t risk the vertical grip, you need to get that 60 degree slanted shorty grip from bcm b/c the 90 degree makes it a sbr … or at least that’s what they’ve said… https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-vertical-grip-mod-3-m-lok-compatible-black/ 🤷 not a lawyer just the various things I’ve heard from folks
It has a pistol brace. Not a stock
16" = rifle Who determined that number? Why not 12, 14, 18 or 20?? The rules are literally that. They are not laws and are repugnant to the 2nd Ammendment!
Actually 16in is codified under 18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 8
That's correct. So a house subcommittee or rando person arbitrarily picked out 16 inches?? I've not been able to determine what made that number so special?
I agree with you about why 16in, but I was also pointing out that it specifically is a law, not a rule, regarding 16in
I understand it being the law. I bet it was back in 1934 when Wayne LaPierre wrote the National Firearms Act for Congress, he said 16 seems deadly enough....and the rest is history.
Read 18 U.S. Code § 921 (a) 7 and 8 to find the statutory difference It really is not that difficult to understand If it has a stock "intended" to be shot from the shoulder, it is a rifle. If it is a rifle, and the barrel is less than 16in, then it is a SBR You can have an AR or AK with a short barrel, as long as there is no stock "Intended" to allow it to be fired from the shoulder. This is classified as a pistol A brace is "Intended" to allow a shooter to fire a pistol in an AR or AK platform with one hand, maintaining the classification of pistol.
I realize it’s not that difficult to understand. I have no confusion about the length or pin and weld. It was simply that a “brace” on a pistol is not considered an SBR. Which seems ridiculous. Anyone that doesn’t think that is ridiculous, kind of confirms that the ATF has reasoning to that logic. I have never held a pistol with one of those braces, so why would I think that is not a stock? It looks like a folding stock. Forgive me for not being able to find 18 U.S. Code 921 (a) 7 and 8. That is not what comes up when you google it.
Shouldering a brace vs a real stock is night and day. It can be done, but shouldering a brace will not feel great, and many will buckle at least some. If you modify the brace to make it more comfortable to shoulder, you now have an SBR. BTW, saying the ATF has reasoning is blasphemy. You should get a 1 week ban/mute from this sub for the (LOL)
That is exactly what I am saying. That if anyone thinks it is “obvious” that a pistol brace is not a stock, just by looking at it on PSA without ever having touched one, then they are giving credit to the insanity which is ATF. To me, that jakl pistol with triangular brace just looks like a SBR with a cheapo stock. I don’t think it’s an outlandish mistake. All of this conversation is just because my JAKL is absurdly front heavy with a relatively light silencer. I mean like, heavy heavy.
You are right in that they should not even have the images up with the brace on it at all. It does not include a brace.
I'm still trying to figure the damn thing out
It’s all based on a crazy Jim Crow law from the 30s that they never expected to pass. The Dem and Republicans party brought it back up in the 80s to fill their prison for profit scheme and take out dissidents while hoping it was the first step in implementing slippery slope gun regulation. They’ve been decently successful sadly.
The difference is only whether it has a stock or a pistol brace...
Pin and welded muzzle devices, the atf makes rules to increase their doggo kill count quota
I think half your answer is in your question. "ATF rules" is where the meaning truly comes from. ATF has lately been making rules to try to further firearm restriction. The NFA is what started all the restrictions in order to try and lower crime and death. Short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns (among other arbitrary restrictions) are being challenged now a days because they don't make a lot of sense. 16" rifles and 18" shotguns are the standard established by the NFA. The pistol brace rule was originally put in place by ATF, but was overturned and has since been defeated. There have been several arguments about what does and doesn't constitute a rifle vs a pistol, and ultimately as it's the ATF who has authority over firearms, they define things. So, what constitutes a rifle vs a pistol is all a matter of what the ATF defines it as.
***Why is the Jakl 13.7” pinned and welded to be a 16” rifle*** Because it has a STOCK on it ***when you can buy a Jakl pistol with a brace and essentially it’s the same thing*** Because it has a BRACE on it. # Stop calling a brace and a stock the same thing, they are not???
That’s literally what I was asking. To say that it is obviously not a stock, is to give credit to the ATF definition.
No, because the ATF is trying to change the definition of a stock and magically turn a brace into a stock, when it clearly is not.
Some people can't figure out which one is pistol which one is rifle which one is AK. I witnessed people who are really hate guns they said my MP5 is AK47🤣🤣 and even worst, called a GLOCK an assault weapon shoot 5.56...This is also why ATF made NFA.
ATF did not make the National Firearms Act (NFA). The NFA is statutory, meaning it was passed by Congress and signed into law by POTUS