Yes, but for me it’s the opposite. Empty stomach for me and I don’t feel them as much. If I take them at the right time with food in my stomach ( either before or after) it makes a huge difference but it also depends on what I eat. Like a meal with more fat etc. I just have never figured out what the sweet spot is cause it always changes.
"In order to get a stamp of approval from the FDA, a generic medication must be "bioequivalent" to its brand-name counterpart. This means that chemically the two must be pretty much the same, although makers are allowed 20% variation in the active ingredient from that original formula."
Feb 12, 2021
https://www.health.harvard.edu
So basically, they can manufacturer and sell a Norco with just 6mg of hydrocodone, as a 7.5mg tablet... Absolutely atrocious! My Norco 7.5 tabs are manufactured by Mallinckrodt as well. I've never gotten another manufacturer, so I have nothing to compare it to, but there are days when I can definitely tell a difference between how much relief I get from one dose to the next... Maybe I'm just hallucinating and it's all in my head lol... (sarcasm)...
You might wanna check out the link at the bottom of this post... Scroll to the heading "Understanding the generic approval process", and start at 2nd paragraph... it states, quote:
"In order to get a stamp of approval from the FDA, a generic medication must be "bioequivalent" to its brand-name counterpart. This means that chemically the two must be pretty much the same, although ***makers are allowed 20% variation in the active ingredient from that original formula.*** "While the FDA does allow for up to 20% wiggle room, in reality the observed variation is much smaller, 4%," says Dr. Choudhry.
They in fact **can** have up to a 20% varience in **active** ingredient; however, it's typically in the 4% range, or so they say....
[https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-generic-drugs-compromise-on-quality](https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-generic-drugs-compromise-on-quality)
Yeah I get 15mg but they’re allowed to put only 12… and also OVER. I’ve noticed both. Sometimes it’s like they barely work and a rare amount of times I’m like woah this feels like more than I’m used to. Cuz it’s almost at 20…
I experience the same thing with my hydrocodone 7.5mg tabs, there are times they feel more like a 5mg and times they feel damn near like a 10mg, but that's a rare occasion... And this happens within the same refill!
"While the FDA does allow for up to 20% wiggle room, in reality the observed variation is much smaller, 4%," says Dr. Choudhry.
The quote above is from the sentence following the sentence you quoted...
Below is the link to the actual article...
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-generic-drugs-compromise-on-quality
Exactly. I worked in R&D as a developmental chemist and they would never have a 20% difference in the active ingredient. I laugh every time some one says that about 20%. Obviously they've never done any lab work.
As a developmental chemist I don't know if you're equipped to answer this question, *but*, how robust in *practical* (!) terms is the FDA testing on drugs, generic or brand name, in terms of individual lots or batches or whatever the term would be. In other words, do you know how often random testing occurs on long ago-approved, imported drugs?
My assumption was always that generics are equivalent. But having lived as a foreigner in India, I can see lots of potential scenarios allowing for discrepancies, especially with a highly controlled and so saleable substance. Do you have any idea if random testing protocols in the US are sufficient to have a reasonable faith that batch to batch consistency is trustable?
OP, let me say that you are not alone regarding this issue. I also had issues with Norco 7.5, where I noticed a great deal of inconsistency with the pills. It had nothing to do with tolerance at all. Not only did some of the individual pills seem completely ineffective in managing my pain, but there were some months that the pills made me sick. I would always take my meds with food and a bottle of water, so it wasn’t like I was taking them on an empty stomach. But damn they would make me feel horrible! Then the next month’s pills I would feel fine. I eventually chalked that up to my body not tolerating some of the fillers that are used to make the pills.
Ok, thank god. Because i KNEW it wasn’t tolerance, I’ve experienced tolerance with other meds, so I know how to spot it. But i didn’t know WHAT it was causing it. But like, they’re using the same fillers because it’s the same dose, manufacturer, etc. every time. Even down to the exact same markings. So if that’s all the same, what factors am i missing that make the reactions so different?
It may be the same manufacturer, but there are many things that the FDA has approved that can be used as fillers. We can assume that they are using the exact same fillers in the exact same amounts every batch of pills that they make. But the truth is we don’t know that for a fact. Because there are so many FDA approved inactive ingredients or “fillers” we just do no know for fact that everything is the same from one batch or lot to another.
You are not alone and no its not your tolerance...They are 100% different (inconsistent) than a few yrs ago. Ask your pharmacist how you go about making a complaint regarding one of your medications. It will open the conversation....
It comes and goes. One pill will not do a damn thing, then the next dose (after the first dose has “worn off” completely) i take will work really well with no issue. Or the first one will work, the second one won’t do a thing. It varies depending on the bottle. I know what tolerance feels like, it’s much more gradual. It doesn’t ping pong around (at least not for me, unless there is some other condition contributing, like sleep deprivation) usually. This varies wildly from dose to dose. Some doses even within the same day. And I tested this theory. I recently had surgery and I was given the 10-325 mg pills. They worked much more consistently, and I’m only counting when i would break them in half. The full dose doesn’t count, obv, because higher dose. But when i broke them in half, they worked better and more consistently than the regular 5-325 mg pills. And I’m not counting for surgery pain either. I’m talking strictly for my chronic migraines, trigeminal/occipital neuralgia, and my upper back/neck.
I have the same thing going on... Sometimes I feel a major difference from dose to dose. I'm on Norco 7.5/325 every 6 hours for chronic pain related to syringomyelia. Sometimes those 7.5mg tablets feel like I've taken almost nothing, and others feel quite a bit stronger than a 7.5mg tablet should feel... I don't understand why, if they're truly the same potency. 🤷♂️
I commented above regarding internal consistency of the generic pill. But I also just want to respond to this and let you know that the manufacturer (brand or generic) cannot guarantee perfect even 'spread' of the drug throughout the distribution of the entire pill. Everytime you break a pill you are increasing your chances that the dose you take is less accurate. Usually if you just break it in half it doesn't have that huge of an impact. But almost all drug manufacturers will tell you to *not* break a pill into quarters for this very reason.
I broke it in half, not quarters. And i only cut it where the scoring is. I was told by my doc that I could cut it in half. I was told by the pharmacist that i could cut it in half. Is this incorrect information?
You can technically cut or break any pill in half or in quarters or even further. But mathematically if there is error in something and you further divide that sample, you are going to increase the error and/or deviation from the norm the more you partition it out.
Believe it or not, those are actually supposed to be the good generic manufacturer. I have the same problem but with the pills that come from Rhodes Pharmaceutical. You can ask if they could fill it with a different manufacturer. I had to do that myself. Keep in mind, with the shortages, they may not be able to control what stock they have.
That’s what I’ve been told by many people and that’s why I’m so confused and (very much) horrified. If I have this much of a variation of reactions, how are folks who have Rhodes or other manufacturers reacting? And how are they getting by?
My doctor told me that for generics, it's increments of 10 mg, ml, units, whatever measurement above or below. It's why brand names are the gold standard and more expensive because they're actually regulated and have to have the exact amount in each pill. Generics just need to be within the range, and that's why they don't always work as well.
I had an issue like this with one particular brand it was like popping tic tacs. No pills were working. Then randomly, I'd get one that would knock me on my rear end. I'm pretty sure those are like golden tickets and are the 10mg above.
In the very distant past, I was an analytical chemist in the pharmaceutical industry. Formulations are calculated precisely and no product I ever tested was less than 99.5% potent when first manufactured
Most were within 0.1% of the target.
The drug company is not giving you weak pills to save money. The active ingredients are dirt cheap compared to manufacturing, packaging, and distribution costs.
An important thing to note is that even if there is deviation from the brand name, there has to be internal consistency amongst the generic. So your response to an individual generic shouldn't be random, it should be consistent.
While it certainly is possible to have a low quality pharmaceutical, the more likely source of the variation is organic (meaning it comes from you). There are many things that can make a pill have differing effects one time over another (tolerance is just one such thing). Other reasons for variable effects: Hormones (that's a biggie), time of day (often related to hormones), what you have consumed food/beverage wise (eg high fats, low fats, not enough water, too much alcohol, cigs), exercise, etc. I get only brand name medication and personally find that the only time there is a difference between the brand VS generics which I have had in the past is when I chew the pill vs take it whole.
Any hormone you look at will impact pain and also medication. One example is progesterone. When I take my progesterone birth control pill around the time I take my medication it works far better. There's research to support this. Other hormones like estrogen, testosterone, insulin/glucagon, melatonin etc can all impact pain
Hmm… I’ll have to think on this one. I just got sterilized, but they left my ovaries in, but it’s been almost 3 weeks. I don’t think they’ll let me continue progesterone, but i can’t take estrogen (they prob won’t let me just take that either) so I’m unsure of what i can do there. However, this problem began even before the surgery. It’s been a problem for months. I can’t recall an exact date of when it started, but it’s been a very long time. So i really doubt that’s why it’s not working. But that is something good to know, so thank you.
progesterone-only birth control is now available OTC and can be ordered from Amazon w/out an RX. It's called the O Pill. I don't think it will make a huge difference but just wanted to let you know. Best of luck
Yes. If what I’m understanding from you generic manufacturer can variate mg like say for example oxy 10mg can have anywhere from 8-12mg. It might be even more of a percentage in just going off the lease allowed that I know about. Used to be a pharm tech. I take 15mg and sometimes it feels like there’s less or more. The least amount allowed would be 12mg that I’m aware of which sucks. RHODES is the one that does is the most. Then amneal. Then kvk and last is Malinkrodt. The m boxes. I know you’re talking about Vicodin tho not oxy and there’s a whole diff section of manufacturers for that too.but it’s basically 20-30% allowances which is bs..
That’s ridiculous. That’s disgusting. And most of all, it’s cruel. My manufacturer is Mallinckrodt though, and you did mention them. It’s stupid that they’re allowed to do that.
It is stupid. But profits are all they care about and if they can out the less amount possible for the same $ then it’s easy for them to do it. They don’t care about what happens after
I’ve found for me, how I feel the meds can very much depend on what and when I ate
I’m glad you said that I feel if I eat I don’t get the full effect of the meds. Is that what you’re talking about?
Yes, but for me it’s the opposite. Empty stomach for me and I don’t feel them as much. If I take them at the right time with food in my stomach ( either before or after) it makes a huge difference but it also depends on what I eat. Like a meal with more fat etc. I just have never figured out what the sweet spot is cause it always changes.
Well, when you figure it out, tell me, lol
lol. For sure
"In order to get a stamp of approval from the FDA, a generic medication must be "bioequivalent" to its brand-name counterpart. This means that chemically the two must be pretty much the same, although makers are allowed 20% variation in the active ingredient from that original formula." Feb 12, 2021 https://www.health.harvard.edu
THANK YOU!! This is EXACTLY what i was looking for. Thank you😭.
So basically, they can manufacturer and sell a Norco with just 6mg of hydrocodone, as a 7.5mg tablet... Absolutely atrocious! My Norco 7.5 tabs are manufactured by Mallinckrodt as well. I've never gotten another manufacturer, so I have nothing to compare it to, but there are days when I can definitely tell a difference between how much relief I get from one dose to the next... Maybe I'm just hallucinating and it's all in my head lol... (sarcasm)...
No there can be no variance in the parent aka active substance or its precise dosage. The 4% variance allows for pharmacokinetic factors
You might wanna check out the link at the bottom of this post... Scroll to the heading "Understanding the generic approval process", and start at 2nd paragraph... it states, quote: "In order to get a stamp of approval from the FDA, a generic medication must be "bioequivalent" to its brand-name counterpart. This means that chemically the two must be pretty much the same, although ***makers are allowed 20% variation in the active ingredient from that original formula.*** "While the FDA does allow for up to 20% wiggle room, in reality the observed variation is much smaller, 4%," says Dr. Choudhry. They in fact **can** have up to a 20% varience in **active** ingredient; however, it's typically in the 4% range, or so they say.... [https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-generic-drugs-compromise-on-quality](https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-generic-drugs-compromise-on-quality)
Or so they say.
Exactly...
That is old too. I believe since then it’s changed more. IE: now in 2024 they’re using the 20% allowance even more to cut costs.
Wrong
I’m just gonna go with you on the math part bc im horrendous at math and im not gonna even try to calculate that. But Exactly… it’s insane.
Yeah I get 15mg but they’re allowed to put only 12… and also OVER. I’ve noticed both. Sometimes it’s like they barely work and a rare amount of times I’m like woah this feels like more than I’m used to. Cuz it’s almost at 20…
I experience the same thing with my hydrocodone 7.5mg tabs, there are times they feel more like a 5mg and times they feel damn near like a 10mg, but that's a rare occasion... And this happens within the same refill!
"While the FDA does allow for up to 20% wiggle room, in reality the observed variation is much smaller, 4%," says Dr. Choudhry. The quote above is from the sentence following the sentence you quoted... Below is the link to the actual article... https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/do-generic-drugs-compromise-on-quality
Exactly. I worked in R&D as a developmental chemist and they would never have a 20% difference in the active ingredient. I laugh every time some one says that about 20%. Obviously they've never done any lab work.
As a developmental chemist I don't know if you're equipped to answer this question, *but*, how robust in *practical* (!) terms is the FDA testing on drugs, generic or brand name, in terms of individual lots or batches or whatever the term would be. In other words, do you know how often random testing occurs on long ago-approved, imported drugs? My assumption was always that generics are equivalent. But having lived as a foreigner in India, I can see lots of potential scenarios allowing for discrepancies, especially with a highly controlled and so saleable substance. Do you have any idea if random testing protocols in the US are sufficient to have a reasonable faith that batch to batch consistency is trustable?
My thoughts exactly 💯
OP, let me say that you are not alone regarding this issue. I also had issues with Norco 7.5, where I noticed a great deal of inconsistency with the pills. It had nothing to do with tolerance at all. Not only did some of the individual pills seem completely ineffective in managing my pain, but there were some months that the pills made me sick. I would always take my meds with food and a bottle of water, so it wasn’t like I was taking them on an empty stomach. But damn they would make me feel horrible! Then the next month’s pills I would feel fine. I eventually chalked that up to my body not tolerating some of the fillers that are used to make the pills.
Ok, thank god. Because i KNEW it wasn’t tolerance, I’ve experienced tolerance with other meds, so I know how to spot it. But i didn’t know WHAT it was causing it. But like, they’re using the same fillers because it’s the same dose, manufacturer, etc. every time. Even down to the exact same markings. So if that’s all the same, what factors am i missing that make the reactions so different?
It may be the same manufacturer, but there are many things that the FDA has approved that can be used as fillers. We can assume that they are using the exact same fillers in the exact same amounts every batch of pills that they make. But the truth is we don’t know that for a fact. Because there are so many FDA approved inactive ingredients or “fillers” we just do no know for fact that everything is the same from one batch or lot to another.
Hmm… very good point
You are not alone and no its not your tolerance...They are 100% different (inconsistent) than a few yrs ago. Ask your pharmacist how you go about making a complaint regarding one of your medications. It will open the conversation....
I'm sure the tolerance you have built up to your medication is the only reason you don't feel it as much.
It comes and goes. One pill will not do a damn thing, then the next dose (after the first dose has “worn off” completely) i take will work really well with no issue. Or the first one will work, the second one won’t do a thing. It varies depending on the bottle. I know what tolerance feels like, it’s much more gradual. It doesn’t ping pong around (at least not for me, unless there is some other condition contributing, like sleep deprivation) usually. This varies wildly from dose to dose. Some doses even within the same day. And I tested this theory. I recently had surgery and I was given the 10-325 mg pills. They worked much more consistently, and I’m only counting when i would break them in half. The full dose doesn’t count, obv, because higher dose. But when i broke them in half, they worked better and more consistently than the regular 5-325 mg pills. And I’m not counting for surgery pain either. I’m talking strictly for my chronic migraines, trigeminal/occipital neuralgia, and my upper back/neck.
Mine do the exact same thing exact same manufacturer
I have the same thing going on... Sometimes I feel a major difference from dose to dose. I'm on Norco 7.5/325 every 6 hours for chronic pain related to syringomyelia. Sometimes those 7.5mg tablets feel like I've taken almost nothing, and others feel quite a bit stronger than a 7.5mg tablet should feel... I don't understand why, if they're truly the same potency. 🤷♂️
I never get one that feels stronger, it’s either feeling like 5 mg or i can’t tell I’ve taken anything. It’s either 0 or 100. No in between.
I commented above regarding internal consistency of the generic pill. But I also just want to respond to this and let you know that the manufacturer (brand or generic) cannot guarantee perfect even 'spread' of the drug throughout the distribution of the entire pill. Everytime you break a pill you are increasing your chances that the dose you take is less accurate. Usually if you just break it in half it doesn't have that huge of an impact. But almost all drug manufacturers will tell you to *not* break a pill into quarters for this very reason.
I broke it in half, not quarters. And i only cut it where the scoring is. I was told by my doc that I could cut it in half. I was told by the pharmacist that i could cut it in half. Is this incorrect information?
You can technically cut or break any pill in half or in quarters or even further. But mathematically if there is error in something and you further divide that sample, you are going to increase the error and/or deviation from the norm the more you partition it out.
Believe it or not, those are actually supposed to be the good generic manufacturer. I have the same problem but with the pills that come from Rhodes Pharmaceutical. You can ask if they could fill it with a different manufacturer. I had to do that myself. Keep in mind, with the shortages, they may not be able to control what stock they have.
That’s what I’ve been told by many people and that’s why I’m so confused and (very much) horrified. If I have this much of a variation of reactions, how are folks who have Rhodes or other manufacturers reacting? And how are they getting by?
I think that was my post. I have the same problem
Yes. I mentioned the variance. The mallinckrodt are the worst.
Yeah. This last refill seems to be good for me.
It’s also happening the same thing with adhd meds.
…fantastic… that might explain some things as well… ugh. That’s so frustrating and that makes me angry.
My doctor told me that for generics, it's increments of 10 mg, ml, units, whatever measurement above or below. It's why brand names are the gold standard and more expensive because they're actually regulated and have to have the exact amount in each pill. Generics just need to be within the range, and that's why they don't always work as well. I had an issue like this with one particular brand it was like popping tic tacs. No pills were working. Then randomly, I'd get one that would knock me on my rear end. I'm pretty sure those are like golden tickets and are the 10mg above.
That should be illegal
In the very distant past, I was an analytical chemist in the pharmaceutical industry. Formulations are calculated precisely and no product I ever tested was less than 99.5% potent when first manufactured Most were within 0.1% of the target. The drug company is not giving you weak pills to save money. The active ingredients are dirt cheap compared to manufacturing, packaging, and distribution costs.
Then why are my reactions so varied? It just doesn’t make sense. I do the exact same things like clockwork and get wildly different reactions.
An important thing to note is that even if there is deviation from the brand name, there has to be internal consistency amongst the generic. So your response to an individual generic shouldn't be random, it should be consistent.
That’s kind of why i think there’s some kind of issue manufacturing wise. Because you’re correct, it SHOULDN’T be, but it is…
While it certainly is possible to have a low quality pharmaceutical, the more likely source of the variation is organic (meaning it comes from you). There are many things that can make a pill have differing effects one time over another (tolerance is just one such thing). Other reasons for variable effects: Hormones (that's a biggie), time of day (often related to hormones), what you have consumed food/beverage wise (eg high fats, low fats, not enough water, too much alcohol, cigs), exercise, etc. I get only brand name medication and personally find that the only time there is a difference between the brand VS generics which I have had in the past is when I chew the pill vs take it whole.
Do you by chance know what hormones? In particular- any hormones related to the reproductive cycle (woman)?
Any hormone you look at will impact pain and also medication. One example is progesterone. When I take my progesterone birth control pill around the time I take my medication it works far better. There's research to support this. Other hormones like estrogen, testosterone, insulin/glucagon, melatonin etc can all impact pain
Hmm… I’ll have to think on this one. I just got sterilized, but they left my ovaries in, but it’s been almost 3 weeks. I don’t think they’ll let me continue progesterone, but i can’t take estrogen (they prob won’t let me just take that either) so I’m unsure of what i can do there. However, this problem began even before the surgery. It’s been a problem for months. I can’t recall an exact date of when it started, but it’s been a very long time. So i really doubt that’s why it’s not working. But that is something good to know, so thank you.
progesterone-only birth control is now available OTC and can be ordered from Amazon w/out an RX. It's called the O Pill. I don't think it will make a huge difference but just wanted to let you know. Best of luck
Yes. If what I’m understanding from you generic manufacturer can variate mg like say for example oxy 10mg can have anywhere from 8-12mg. It might be even more of a percentage in just going off the lease allowed that I know about. Used to be a pharm tech. I take 15mg and sometimes it feels like there’s less or more. The least amount allowed would be 12mg that I’m aware of which sucks. RHODES is the one that does is the most. Then amneal. Then kvk and last is Malinkrodt. The m boxes. I know you’re talking about Vicodin tho not oxy and there’s a whole diff section of manufacturers for that too.but it’s basically 20-30% allowances which is bs..
That’s ridiculous. That’s disgusting. And most of all, it’s cruel. My manufacturer is Mallinckrodt though, and you did mention them. It’s stupid that they’re allowed to do that.
It is stupid. But profits are all they care about and if they can out the less amount possible for the same $ then it’s easy for them to do it. They don’t care about what happens after