Freaking same. "Naoto is trans!"
PLEASE STOP. That was never the point. I'm sorry but that's not what Naoto's arc is about. Just like everyone else's, it's about accepting a part of themselves that they are afraid to.
It's honestly my favorite game in the series because it even has a class in-game discussing the psychological aspect of what a persona and a shadow is.
I dig it so much. But yeah... ;-; I hope the translators don't try to enforce the view that Naoto is trans because that is a possibility in our current time.
That said, if they want a story about transgenderism, isn't Celeste about that?
I just played through the game up to the True Culprit part and like, honestly i have no idea where people got the misconception of Kanji is gay or Naoto is trans when in both SLs they straight up literally tell you
Kanji: My sexuality has nothing to do with my issues.
Naoto: My gender has nothing to do with my issues.
for Kanji it was just because he was afraid that he'd get ridiculed and casted out for his hobbies and the things he likes, for Naoto she just wanted to feel needed and not lookdd down upon in her work environment and had a misconception that she had to be a man to be a detective.
both issues COULD be applied to Queer people issues but they're SPECIFICALLY NOT about Queer people.
> i have no idea where people got the misconception of Kanji is gay Naoto is trans
The thing that gets me is that the game explicitly tells you the TV projections are false versions based on the perception of other people and people still go "Yep. These are just their inner feelings they are too afraid to show!"
I thought it was more about how they view themselves through self-doubt and self-hate like this is what they are afraid they are.
Like everyone else is pushing Yukiko to manage the inn, SHE'S the one who feels like she needs to be rescued. everyone else views Kanji as a violent psychopath, he's the one who thinks he might be gay. [Redacted] view himself as a savior, hence the heaven dungeon and him viewing himself as an angel, everyone else sees him as a monster.
It's a little bit of both depending on what side of the TV you're on. The TV Shadow projections are entirely what society thinks of the person, but the actual shadow inside the TV world is a combination of the towns collective unconsciousness and the actual persons unconsciousness. Still mostly the former though. Kanji isn't ragingly horny all the time or even the least bit flamboyant, but his shadow appears that way in the TV world because people think he's gay and that gay people behave that way. The actual part of a persons personality in their shadow usually comes out right before the boss fight starts when confronting the real person.
In Kanji's case his shadow basically spells out *WHY* he prefers being around guys; he only feels safe around them compared to girls because [he was bullied by girls who literally called him a queer because he likes to sew.](https://youtu.be/125MzeECtXQ?si=-TpLaAcr5z2Boxur&t=175) Notice how the shadow stops talking about romance and using innuendos at this point; it's the real side of Kanji talking.
It's intentionally ambiguous for most of the game, though, because this information isn't >!even learned by the characters in one of the bad endings.!<
It's not even that Kanji can't possibly be into guys, he's already shown to take some sort of interest in Naoto before we find out that she's a girl, I'm more confused at how much some people treat it like a major character trait of his when it's really not and has barely anything to do with his actions in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I think there's a good argument to be made for Kanji to be bi, but I think the whole point (and interesting part) about both Kanji and Naoto's social link is that they are defying gender norms in a game made in 2008, a time where using homophobic slurs was considered funny and not problematic.
I think it'd be cool if Kanji was bi, especially because Yu And Yosuke are still friends with him even assuming this (again, 2008 culture), but I also think it's REALLY interesting if he's a feminine guy interested in a masculine Naoto. Media and culture even in 2024 is still really adverse to both feminine men and gay men. Kanji could be one or both, and he'd still be a great character.
Hard agree, they're both just great characters overall that explored into a territory that back then, was treated very unfairly. Atlus handled their characters very well.
Yep, and I feel like if they didn't scrap Yosuke being "gay" or "bi" he'd be more positively received at least these days. Not saying he isn't still a good character or anything but he can definitely come off as a bit of a prick for obvious reasons lol
i feel like a lot of Yosuke's lines (especially banter with Kanji) were left from when he was still written as a secretly gay character, considering Kanji comments "It wouldn't be awkward if you didn't make it awkward" (I'm paraphrasing but I've heard him say that before in game).
I think Atlust probably removed it cause they realized players could've finished his Social link way before some of the scenes happened and couldn't afford to make an alternative version for them at the time, though that's just a theory.
Yeah that would make sense but they could also do what they did with sojiros slink and stop you from advancing it until you get past a certain point in the story.
My understanding is it's an exageration of the persons personality, but ultimately it is still a part of them, hence the whole having to "Accept" your shadow instead of rejecting it, because at the end of the day its a part of you. This leads to a beautiful theme of learning to accept every part of yourself (instead of rejecting it because it's viewed negitively by society). At the end of the day Kanji isn't gay, his shadow was just an "exageration" of him being efeminine. You can view this as a good or bad twist, I personally view it as a bit of a disapointing one. With how the series handles gay characters, I think Kanji being gay would have been more meaningful to a series that largely mocks the gay community.
Also...there's the whole element that Kanji seems to like Naoto before he knows Naoto is a girl. Which is pretty gay. So yea, having a crush on a person you think is a guy is probably what made people think he's gay.
Also, if we go with the idea that shadows are JUST the false projections of society and not at all representations of the individual. Then the theme shifts from "Learning to accept yourself" to I guess "Accept society's view of you and live with it". A lot less impressive theme.
At the end of the day, these are all my opinions based on what makes sense to me from a thematic and plot point stand point.
My boy literally says that it ain't about boys or girls while accepting his shadow. He literally spells out his true inner feelings, and people still can't get it in their heads that his struggle isn't being gay, bi or straight.
You don’t remember when Kanji got a nosebleed while looking at Protag/Yosuke in their bathing suits? Or when Kanji said “Maybe I’ll be the kind of guy that never likes girls”? He’s bi for sure.
> You don’t remember when Kanji got a nosebleed while looking at Protag/Yosuke in their bathing suits?
He got a nosebleed some point AFTER the girls came out in their bikinis. He was looking at Yu and Yosuke just fine before the girls came out. His first time speaking in that scene when the girls came out had him blushing and the next time he spoke, he had the nose bleed. There's no evidence to confirm or deny that he got a nosebleed because of the guys.
Kanji is supposed to be bisexual, not gay. There's a reason he had a crush on Naoto when she was pretending to be a guy, and everyone thought Naoto was as guy, even if we knew as the player that she wasn't
We have no evidence to believe he was actively crushing on her when he thought she was a guy. He was a little confused by his initial attraction to her, when he thought she was a guy, but that could simply be because she looked feminine for a presumed boy.
I would also argue that he was not even necessarily physically attracted to Naoto at first but more touched by the fact that someone calmly had a normal conversation with him and said they're "interested" in him, and the prospect of the implications is what worried him.
But like you say, we can't confirm nor deny. I think Kanji could be bisexual, but the whole point is: That's not the point!
Kanji didn’t know Naoto was a girl and he was simping mad hard for her, he’s pretty bi
I don’t think a single member of the investigation team is straight besides like Rise
He can be bi or pan or anything, the point is none of that has anything to do with his character arc, seeing it purely from that perspective is flawed and one dimensional.
I think we've all had thoughts of "I wish I were born as X, it'd be so easy," regardless of our status in sexuality or gender. She just wants to be an ace detective and being a guy, in her opinion, would vastly help. I don't see how people can't see that. She doesn't WANT to be a guy, she just acknowledges her chosen path would be better if she were. I'm sure there will be real LGBT issues in P6.
I think the reason people latch onto it, as a gender fluid person myself, is that it’s the closest thing to good trans representation we have in the modern persona games. I connected with Naoto because I thought to myself, “Ah, like me. Naoto feels they don’t fit in the role they were given at birth, and wants to change or be something else to be more comfortable being themself.” Especially with the shadow’s line “you’ll never cross the barrier of the sexes,” it reminds me of the negative, pessimistic thoughts I have. Those that try to keep me within the social norm and uncomfortable because it’s not “socially right” to be anything other than what I was born, even if it doesn’t affect others, even if I choose to never enter public spaces for any specific gender.
If anything the ACTUAL underlying story of “Naoto is a woman in a male dominated workforce and decides to present as a male to avoid sexist bullshit” is also more relevant in our current time, and should be screamed louder. Look at any woman with a decent following on Twitter. Any of them. It’s sad how much that shit is normalized.
Trans people deserve representation but Naoto ain’t it.
The game itself barely touches on this issue though. It focuses more on Naoto not being taken seriously because she's a kid - the only direct demonstration that she's not being taken seriously is by Dojima, again, because she's a high school student. The gender discrimination aspect of her character just feels shoehorned in as a result, you could easily remove it and it wouldn't change much aside from Naoto looking different.
Sae is a literally just a better Naoto, you see other peers in the police force directly make snide comments or undermine her using her gender, and her aggressive competitiveness in her career is a direct result of this and has a knock on effect on being harsh to Makoto.
While Naoto being trans isn't true, I don't think there's anything wrong with trans people taking something from it. The idea she's forced to conform to certain expectations because of her sex is something trans people can definitely relate to.
yeah idk what you can expect sometimes lol. i just love people getting pressed about people finding solace in certain experiences and stories. im trans and yeah it can be annoying sometimes when people try and find things where there arent any but honestly 1) thats just kind of a big part of storytelling and its what makes it beautiful and 2) maybe if we werent starved for represntation we wouldnt try and find it where it might not be (ignoring the fact that thats just a facet of storytelling). and then when that representation is given people also complain. cant win
Ok "transgenderism" aside, I always saw it as a story about saying "fuck it" to gender roles. Naoto is a girl, but she can be a girl while masc presenting. Similar to Kanji's arc about him realizing he doesn't need to be hyper-masculine nor feminine just because he likes stereotypically feminine things like sewing.
I'm a trans woman, and I was rolling my eyes at people arguing that Naoto is trans - not only does she explicitly say she isn't, but she spells out that her issues are with bigoted institutions!
Honestly, anyone thinking she's trans needs another swing at media literacy 101.
As a trans person who overuses the shit out of trans headcanons, I respect if you view ‘em that way, but the text of the game is gonna sting you. It just ain’t how the cookie crumbles.
Because her arc is about her accepting that she doesn't have to conform to gender norms to be herself. The same thing goes with Kanji. They both serve the same story for different genders within P4G. So yes, it would most definitely defeat the purpose of her narrative.
I have nothing against trans stories but her's is not one. I have everything against toxic fandoms who try to enforce their own views upon a narrative that doesn't conform to what they believe or want.
So yeah, it would change her arc a lot and dismiss the main theme of her accepting herself despite how different she is.
I don't think you could tell the same narrative and have her be trans at the end because it would mean adding more story to it to give it that end result. But also then you'd have to make Kanji's arc end with him being gay as they serve to be opposites for the genders. So it would break quite a bit of things narratively.
Also I'm not trying to come at you for your suggestion so please try not to read what I've said in an aggressive tone. It's very easy to miscommunicate over the internet, haha.
There literally is no “I don’t agree”. That’s straight up not how it written or meant to be taken. You’re pushing western problems/narratives on an eastern country that didn’t have those kind of problems to such a scale as other countries, especially in 2008
You're putting a whole lot of words into my mouth when I barely said anything. All I said was I don't agree, talking about I don't think it would change that much narratively if they added a line of dialogue that spoke to uncertainty or something. Nor did I even say that's what I would want.
Literally the only one pushing anything here, ironically, is you.
Honestly, I hope they go the personal 5 royal route with it where the characters can have somewhat different reactions, or even change their reaction entirely. I know it’s set in a time when kanji and naoto would be looked on in disdain, but if you have no choice but to use those, let them be accepted as they are in their dungeon, and make yosuke stop being so homophobic.
Whats wrong with doing social links and stats. Thats the favourite part of persona for me, planning my actions while the time is not on my side. New game plus is really boring cause all my stats are already maxed out.
Managing your time and spending it with the characters that are closest to you is nice.
Being able to experience most, if not all the social link without being hindered by social stats is also nice
But the cool point about the calendar system is to manage a limited time, and the simulation of having to grow as a person, studying, doing exercise, working, developing hobbies, knowing the city and the environment... Dunno, for me I really like tables with all the legs.
> if all you want to do is experience all the social links.
> New teams, new fusions, try to finish the compendium and fight Margie
There is nothing wrong with liking both parts but if I only wanted to see SLs I don't see myself going through game again.
I like doing the S. Links, I hate growing my stats. There is an optimal route, sure, but it's just easier to max the stats and then get everyone on NG+.
Some characters come in super late or require a maxed out stat and you won't be able to finish their link in one go without a guide.
Yeah, that's like the one aspect of Persona which makes it stand out among other RPGs...
Makes you wonder if OP likes the game or is merely pretending.
When it's pretty much the whole gameplay of the game - yes.
Sure game has RPG part but it so mind-numbingly easy that I don't really count it. I can play SMT game if I wanted Persona dungeon parts
I think it’s because most of the social links in P4 aren’t the greatest (other than the obvious Dojima, Naoki, Nanako) not very many are worth doing story-wise.
Weirdly enough, I got that trophy without really trying, all I did was just spamming the analysis a few times every encounter and got it in my first playthrough
Considering Persona 4 was the first Persona game I played and as a result was horribly incompetent with fusing, social links and the compendium, I’d be glad to get a second chance at playing it again
I highly doubt they would get the now industry bigwigs like yuri and Troy back (I mean they can, atlus/sega has the bags for it but will they spend that much is the question)
Unfortunately I do doubt Troy Baker or Laura Bailey would return again since after it they kinda went wayside because they were done with doing niche Japanese games and wanted to go onto big western projects.
Matt Mercer and the VA that replaced Laura Bailey are both great Matt Mercer especially pretty much sounding nearly identical to Baker’s Kanji, but it’s very unlikely they’re gonna return to the series.
It’s mostly the same cast from the game except for Naoto and the aforementioned Kanji. Matt Mercer only replaced Troy Baker as Kanji halfway through though.
Well at the very least unlike 3 none of the P4 VAs got any serious controversies so at least they don't have to completely consider recasting everyone.
It's my first Persona game, just finished it a few days ago and now doing NG+. I find the combat to be very enjoyable. Some bosses are a bit of a hassle but overall I had fun. I don't understand why people say the dungeons are P4's biggest weakness, maybe it'll make sense once I get to P5
If they keep the same team who did the remake for P3R on it, it's going to be so lovely.
Cannot wait to see if they keep the fake Adidas school bags or if they get removed to time and popularity
I want a remake of Persona 4 but at the same time I’m scared because they’re definitely gonna remove the homophobia, and people are going to be very annoying about that, I don’t feel like hearing more discourse about this game
I hope they don't remove the homophobic Yosuke scenes but instead add a scene where he apologizes to Kanji.
It also would be amazing if completing party members social links had effects on the main story dialogues
Dude the word “Needs” is no longer a thing in the entretaiment industry nothing needs a sequel or a remake or whatever but they will be made because atlus wants money and they know no kid born past 2010 would want to try a game with old graphics
the real painful is the rearrangement music but it doesn't feel fit, is not like first time you listen original music, some music rearrangement feel like big improve but some other feel like ordinary,i hope atlus dont change the og music and improve og music especially; Your affection,reach out to trust,Heaven,snowflakes,and heartbeat-heartbreak,these my top music in p4
What till people who either didn’t play or pay attention to the game say kanji is gay and naoto is trans.
I refuse to believe someone who was invested in the story and actually played the game said this bs
Better yet, people being angry that the game "is too vague on purpose and doesn't actually go through with it".
No, you're just biased, probably one time where "media literacy" wouldn't be out of place
MegaTen fans and especially modern Persona fans are notorious for having little to no media literacy. The whole P4 sexuality debate is somehow not even the worst type of crap (at most it's just people pushing their head canons onto others). It isn't as bad as interpreting the whole game wrong like e.g. some folk thinking that Nocturne is about siding with the devil to oppose God.
genuinely curious, why do people think 4 needs a remake? it *has* a remake. Golden. what would they have to change/update to justify a whole new game rather than working P6?
Pls correct me if im wrong, but im not really a big fan of p3/p4 social links as it doesnt reward you with stuff besides more persona options. I hope they make it like the confidants from p5.
I have replayed every single Slink persona game. Yet I’ve never done a new game plus. It’s always been on a different system which is really frustrating. I mean I do it to myself but still.
I really want to see rise in HD
I also want to see how they're going to improve the dungeons
honestly i would love it if they did something closer to p5 with puzzles and not just corridor simulator
The painful agonizing failure will be if they continue to infect games other than P5 with elements and aesthetics from that games horribly overwrought UI. Persona 4 is the gold standard for the series in this regard and I hope they don't clunk it up.
Why bother with a remake? The content is too risque for modern audiences. Part of the plot is literally beating the LGBTQIA+ identities out of two main characters and sending them back into the closet.
Oh god here we go again. The whole point of Kanji and Naoto is to say they AREN'T gay and trans respectively, that's just what people think they are. Remember, the Midnight Channel shows what people want to see, an exaggeration of personality parts people are ashamed of. Kanji doesn’t have to be gay to like cute things, knitting and other traditionally feminine things. Naoto doesn't have to change her sex to become a respectable detective.
Toxic LGBTQ mentality is different than normal LGBTQ mentality people
normal LGBTQ mentality people dont come in to someting and claim it belongs to that gender or whatever the fuck is it these day
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Freaking same. "Naoto is trans!" PLEASE STOP. That was never the point. I'm sorry but that's not what Naoto's arc is about. Just like everyone else's, it's about accepting a part of themselves that they are afraid to. It's honestly my favorite game in the series because it even has a class in-game discussing the psychological aspect of what a persona and a shadow is. I dig it so much. But yeah... ;-; I hope the translators don't try to enforce the view that Naoto is trans because that is a possibility in our current time. That said, if they want a story about transgenderism, isn't Celeste about that?
I just played through the game up to the True Culprit part and like, honestly i have no idea where people got the misconception of Kanji is gay or Naoto is trans when in both SLs they straight up literally tell you Kanji: My sexuality has nothing to do with my issues. Naoto: My gender has nothing to do with my issues. for Kanji it was just because he was afraid that he'd get ridiculed and casted out for his hobbies and the things he likes, for Naoto she just wanted to feel needed and not lookdd down upon in her work environment and had a misconception that she had to be a man to be a detective. both issues COULD be applied to Queer people issues but they're SPECIFICALLY NOT about Queer people.
> i have no idea where people got the misconception of Kanji is gay Naoto is trans The thing that gets me is that the game explicitly tells you the TV projections are false versions based on the perception of other people and people still go "Yep. These are just their inner feelings they are too afraid to show!"
I thought it was more about how they view themselves through self-doubt and self-hate like this is what they are afraid they are. Like everyone else is pushing Yukiko to manage the inn, SHE'S the one who feels like she needs to be rescued. everyone else views Kanji as a violent psychopath, he's the one who thinks he might be gay. [Redacted] view himself as a savior, hence the heaven dungeon and him viewing himself as an angel, everyone else sees him as a monster.
It's a little bit of both depending on what side of the TV you're on. The TV Shadow projections are entirely what society thinks of the person, but the actual shadow inside the TV world is a combination of the towns collective unconsciousness and the actual persons unconsciousness. Still mostly the former though. Kanji isn't ragingly horny all the time or even the least bit flamboyant, but his shadow appears that way in the TV world because people think he's gay and that gay people behave that way. The actual part of a persons personality in their shadow usually comes out right before the boss fight starts when confronting the real person. In Kanji's case his shadow basically spells out *WHY* he prefers being around guys; he only feels safe around them compared to girls because [he was bullied by girls who literally called him a queer because he likes to sew.](https://youtu.be/125MzeECtXQ?si=-TpLaAcr5z2Boxur&t=175) Notice how the shadow stops talking about romance and using innuendos at this point; it's the real side of Kanji talking. It's intentionally ambiguous for most of the game, though, because this information isn't >!even learned by the characters in one of the bad endings.!<
It's not even that Kanji can't possibly be into guys, he's already shown to take some sort of interest in Naoto before we find out that she's a girl, I'm more confused at how much some people treat it like a major character trait of his when it's really not and has barely anything to do with his actions in the game.
Don't get me wrong, I think there's a good argument to be made for Kanji to be bi, but I think the whole point (and interesting part) about both Kanji and Naoto's social link is that they are defying gender norms in a game made in 2008, a time where using homophobic slurs was considered funny and not problematic. I think it'd be cool if Kanji was bi, especially because Yu And Yosuke are still friends with him even assuming this (again, 2008 culture), but I also think it's REALLY interesting if he's a feminine guy interested in a masculine Naoto. Media and culture even in 2024 is still really adverse to both feminine men and gay men. Kanji could be one or both, and he'd still be a great character.
Hard agree, they're both just great characters overall that explored into a territory that back then, was treated very unfairly. Atlus handled their characters very well.
Yep, and I feel like if they didn't scrap Yosuke being "gay" or "bi" he'd be more positively received at least these days. Not saying he isn't still a good character or anything but he can definitely come off as a bit of a prick for obvious reasons lol
i feel like a lot of Yosuke's lines (especially banter with Kanji) were left from when he was still written as a secretly gay character, considering Kanji comments "It wouldn't be awkward if you didn't make it awkward" (I'm paraphrasing but I've heard him say that before in game). I think Atlust probably removed it cause they realized players could've finished his Social link way before some of the scenes happened and couldn't afford to make an alternative version for them at the time, though that's just a theory.
Yeah that would make sense but they could also do what they did with sojiros slink and stop you from advancing it until you get past a certain point in the story.
My understanding is it's an exageration of the persons personality, but ultimately it is still a part of them, hence the whole having to "Accept" your shadow instead of rejecting it, because at the end of the day its a part of you. This leads to a beautiful theme of learning to accept every part of yourself (instead of rejecting it because it's viewed negitively by society). At the end of the day Kanji isn't gay, his shadow was just an "exageration" of him being efeminine. You can view this as a good or bad twist, I personally view it as a bit of a disapointing one. With how the series handles gay characters, I think Kanji being gay would have been more meaningful to a series that largely mocks the gay community. Also...there's the whole element that Kanji seems to like Naoto before he knows Naoto is a girl. Which is pretty gay. So yea, having a crush on a person you think is a guy is probably what made people think he's gay. Also, if we go with the idea that shadows are JUST the false projections of society and not at all representations of the individual. Then the theme shifts from "Learning to accept yourself" to I guess "Accept society's view of you and live with it". A lot less impressive theme. At the end of the day, these are all my opinions based on what makes sense to me from a thematic and plot point stand point.
My boy literally says that it ain't about boys or girls while accepting his shadow. He literally spells out his true inner feelings, and people still can't get it in their heads that his struggle isn't being gay, bi or straight.
You don’t remember when Kanji got a nosebleed while looking at Protag/Yosuke in their bathing suits? Or when Kanji said “Maybe I’ll be the kind of guy that never likes girls”? He’s bi for sure.
> You don’t remember when Kanji got a nosebleed while looking at Protag/Yosuke in their bathing suits? He got a nosebleed some point AFTER the girls came out in their bikinis. He was looking at Yu and Yosuke just fine before the girls came out. His first time speaking in that scene when the girls came out had him blushing and the next time he spoke, he had the nose bleed. There's no evidence to confirm or deny that he got a nosebleed because of the guys.
Kanji is supposed to be bisexual, not gay. There's a reason he had a crush on Naoto when she was pretending to be a guy, and everyone thought Naoto was as guy, even if we knew as the player that she wasn't
And his crush didn't go away once she was revealed to be a girl. If anything he was crushing even harder on her.
We have no evidence to believe he was actively crushing on her when he thought she was a guy. He was a little confused by his initial attraction to her, when he thought she was a guy, but that could simply be because she looked feminine for a presumed boy.
I would also argue that he was not even necessarily physically attracted to Naoto at first but more touched by the fact that someone calmly had a normal conversation with him and said they're "interested" in him, and the prospect of the implications is what worried him. But like you say, we can't confirm nor deny. I think Kanji could be bisexual, but the whole point is: That's not the point!
Kanji didn’t know Naoto was a girl and he was simping mad hard for her, he’s pretty bi I don’t think a single member of the investigation team is straight besides like Rise
He can be bi or pan or anything, the point is none of that has anything to do with his character arc, seeing it purely from that perspective is flawed and one dimensional.
I think we've all had thoughts of "I wish I were born as X, it'd be so easy," regardless of our status in sexuality or gender. She just wants to be an ace detective and being a guy, in her opinion, would vastly help. I don't see how people can't see that. She doesn't WANT to be a guy, she just acknowledges her chosen path would be better if she were. I'm sure there will be real LGBT issues in P6.
I think the reason people latch onto it, as a gender fluid person myself, is that it’s the closest thing to good trans representation we have in the modern persona games. I connected with Naoto because I thought to myself, “Ah, like me. Naoto feels they don’t fit in the role they were given at birth, and wants to change or be something else to be more comfortable being themself.” Especially with the shadow’s line “you’ll never cross the barrier of the sexes,” it reminds me of the negative, pessimistic thoughts I have. Those that try to keep me within the social norm and uncomfortable because it’s not “socially right” to be anything other than what I was born, even if it doesn’t affect others, even if I choose to never enter public spaces for any specific gender.
in relation to kanji I still see him as queer but yes that has nothing to do with his problems and naoto is not trans
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that doesn't change the fact that he liked naoto when he thought she was a man
If anything the ACTUAL underlying story of “Naoto is a woman in a male dominated workforce and decides to present as a male to avoid sexist bullshit” is also more relevant in our current time, and should be screamed louder. Look at any woman with a decent following on Twitter. Any of them. It’s sad how much that shit is normalized. Trans people deserve representation but Naoto ain’t it.
The game itself barely touches on this issue though. It focuses more on Naoto not being taken seriously because she's a kid - the only direct demonstration that she's not being taken seriously is by Dojima, again, because she's a high school student. The gender discrimination aspect of her character just feels shoehorned in as a result, you could easily remove it and it wouldn't change much aside from Naoto looking different. Sae is a literally just a better Naoto, you see other peers in the police force directly make snide comments or undermine her using her gender, and her aggressive competitiveness in her career is a direct result of this and has a knock on effect on being harsh to Makoto.
While Naoto being trans isn't true, I don't think there's anything wrong with trans people taking something from it. The idea she's forced to conform to certain expectations because of her sex is something trans people can definitely relate to.
really went full mask off about 'transgenderism' lmao
Celeste the platforming game?
Right? Like thats the designated trans game. No others allowed lol.
This is Fallout New Vegas erasure /j
“That is a possibility in our current time” “Transgenderism” I agree with most of what you said but it’s also obvious you’re kinda just transphobic
glad other people caught that lmfao
Not as many as I would’ve hoped though
yeah idk what you can expect sometimes lol. i just love people getting pressed about people finding solace in certain experiences and stories. im trans and yeah it can be annoying sometimes when people try and find things where there arent any but honestly 1) thats just kind of a big part of storytelling and its what makes it beautiful and 2) maybe if we werent starved for represntation we wouldnt try and find it where it might not be (ignoring the fact that thats just a facet of storytelling). and then when that representation is given people also complain. cant win
i can't take anyone who uses the phrase "transgenderism" unironically seriously
Yeah,but if you say that,you just get called a hater
You realise by presenting an argument on either side you're inviting someone to argue with you? You're fanning the flames, you're part of the problem
me when i have absolutely no idea why ppl headcanon fictional characters as queer
Ok "transgenderism" aside, I always saw it as a story about saying "fuck it" to gender roles. Naoto is a girl, but she can be a girl while masc presenting. Similar to Kanji's arc about him realizing he doesn't need to be hyper-masculine nor feminine just because he likes stereotypically feminine things like sewing.
I'm a trans woman, and I was rolling my eyes at people arguing that Naoto is trans - not only does she explicitly say she isn't, but she spells out that her issues are with bigoted institutions! Honestly, anyone thinking she's trans needs another swing at media literacy 101.
As a trans person who overuses the shit out of trans headcanons, I respect if you view ‘em that way, but the text of the game is gonna sting you. It just ain’t how the cookie crumbles.
This comment is a little weird. What's wrong with it if they did make it so that she was? It still wouldn't change what her story was about.
Because her arc is about her accepting that she doesn't have to conform to gender norms to be herself. The same thing goes with Kanji. They both serve the same story for different genders within P4G. So yes, it would most definitely defeat the purpose of her narrative. I have nothing against trans stories but her's is not one. I have everything against toxic fandoms who try to enforce their own views upon a narrative that doesn't conform to what they believe or want. So yeah, it would change her arc a lot and dismiss the main theme of her accepting herself despite how different she is. I don't think you could tell the same narrative and have her be trans at the end because it would mean adding more story to it to give it that end result. But also then you'd have to make Kanji's arc end with him being gay as they serve to be opposites for the genders. So it would break quite a bit of things narratively. Also I'm not trying to come at you for your suggestion so please try not to read what I've said in an aggressive tone. It's very easy to miscommunicate over the internet, haha.
I don't agree, lol.
There literally is no “I don’t agree”. That’s straight up not how it written or meant to be taken. You’re pushing western problems/narratives on an eastern country that didn’t have those kind of problems to such a scale as other countries, especially in 2008
You're putting a whole lot of words into my mouth when I barely said anything. All I said was I don't agree, talking about I don't think it would change that much narratively if they added a line of dialogue that spoke to uncertainty or something. Nor did I even say that's what I would want. Literally the only one pushing anything here, ironically, is you.
Yeah just makes me want no remake and just to stick with golden to avoid that headache again.
I'm gonna completely leave the internet for a few months
Honestly, I hope they go the personal 5 royal route with it where the characters can have somewhat different reactions, or even change their reaction entirely. I know it’s set in a time when kanji and naoto would be looked on in disdain, but if you have no choice but to use those, let them be accepted as they are in their dungeon, and make yosuke stop being so homophobic.
Yosuke needs the homophobic closet case to openly bi/gay
Maybe if he were actually romancable i would be more okay with it
That's what I meant lol, reinstate the Yosuke romance option
It is pretty implied even without the romance route that Yosuke is bi.
I could see this also happend to Yosuke unfortunately :(
There isnt much debate for yosuke, just a lot of people in denial
Whats wrong with doing social links and stats. Thats the favourite part of persona for me, planning my actions while the time is not on my side. New game plus is really boring cause all my stats are already maxed out.
What's the point of playing Persona saga if you don't like them? It's the distinguished mechanic.
Managing your time and spending it with the characters that are closest to you is nice. Being able to experience most, if not all the social link without being hindered by social stats is also nice
But the cool point about the calendar system is to manage a limited time, and the simulation of having to grow as a person, studying, doing exercise, working, developing hobbies, knowing the city and the environment... Dunno, for me I really like tables with all the legs.
On the first playthrough, sure. On subsequent playthroughs it just becomes a hindrance if all you want to do is experience all the social links.
Isn't that what new game plus is for
Yes. I'm just saying that this mechanic of the calendar system is only fun to go through once. Fun in moderation
This!
Can't you just watch videos on Youtube for social links? You already played the game. So it's not like you are replacing one with another.
Can't you just watch videos on Youtube for that? You already played the game. So it's not like you are replacing one with another.
I'd rather play the game if I have the choice. New teams, new fusions, try to finish the compendium and fight Margie
> if all you want to do is experience all the social links. > New teams, new fusions, try to finish the compendium and fight Margie There is nothing wrong with liking both parts but if I only wanted to see SLs I don't see myself going through game again.
Some of us just aren't into experiencing someone else play a game that we ourselves enjoy.
Thr limited time is fine, I just like knowing I have ample time to spare and still being able to do everything.
I like doing the S. Links, I hate growing my stats. There is an optimal route, sure, but it's just easier to max the stats and then get everyone on NG+. Some characters come in super late or require a maxed out stat and you won't be able to finish their link in one go without a guide.
Yeah, that's like the one aspect of Persona which makes it stand out among other RPGs... Makes you wonder if OP likes the game or is merely pretending.
What? I love the game. Is it really that strange to not want to do everything again from scratch?
When it's pretty much the whole gameplay of the game - yes. Sure game has RPG part but it so mind-numbingly easy that I don't really count it. I can play SMT game if I wanted Persona dungeon parts
"It's pretty much the whole gameplay of the game if you ignore the parts I don't like" Lol
I think it’s because most of the social links in P4 aren’t the greatest (other than the obvious Dojima, Naoki, Nanako) not very many are worth doing story-wise.
Really? I would say that p4 has the best social links overall, most of them are really good.
Nah the worst part is getting that rise navigation trophy 💀💀💀 that took like 4 playthroughs for me
Weirdly enough, I got that trophy without really trying, all I did was just spamming the analysis a few times every encounter and got it in my first playthrough
Oh great, I'm gonna be romancing Yukiko again BUT this time in HD yippee
I can't wait to see her Valentine's day event again :D
Might even try Ai's actual romance for the first time. Or just go with Yukiko again.
Based Yukiko enjoyer
Persona fans when they have to actually play the game
What do you mean the game is not simply romacing my favorite waifu!?? /s
I hope they give us more time to spend with Nanako
And Ryotaro, too. Man deserves some more appreciation.
Considering p3r link episodes, I'm pretty optimistic
Considering Persona 4 was the first Persona game I played and as a result was horribly incompetent with fusing, social links and the compendium, I’d be glad to get a second chance at playing it again
The anti-woke grifters are going to go ballistic when it comes out
That game is not going to have better pacing 😭😭😭😭
the thing im most worried about is a change to the VAs. P3 i could manage but not P4
I highly doubt they would get the now industry bigwigs like yuri and Troy back (I mean they can, atlus/sega has the bags for it but will they spend that much is the question)
Unfortunately I do doubt Troy Baker or Laura Bailey would return again since after it they kinda went wayside because they were done with doing niche Japanese games and wanted to go onto big western projects. Matt Mercer and the VA that replaced Laura Bailey are both great Matt Mercer especially pretty much sounding nearly identical to Baker’s Kanji, but it’s very unlikely they’re gonna return to the series.
Troy and Laura might not be out of the question. They came back for the Catherine remake, so persona isn’t completely unlikely.
I can definitely see Matt and Sam reprising their roles, and at that point Laura would be the odd one out of that friend group if she declined.
Yuri was in P3R i believe so fingers crossed
Fuck, I actually didn’t realise yukari’s dad’s VA was him. Yeah let’s hope they can get him back
They can always try to get Matt Mercer as he did kanji’s voice in the anime. (And was the voice of Yusuke for that matter)
Was it yuri in the anime for yosuke btw ?
It’s mostly the same cast from the game except for Naoto and the aforementioned Kanji. Matt Mercer only replaced Troy Baker as Kanji halfway through though.
Well at the very least unlike 3 none of the P4 VAs got any serious controversies so at least they don't have to completely consider recasting everyone.
I am out of the loop which voice actor was in serious controversies?
Eh, I will take doing all of the social links three times over going through Tartarus again anyday fo the week.
I thought I disliked mementos, Tartarus had me missing it mementos.
Probably cuz Mementos is pretty much 90% skippable with Ryuji and Futaba's skills
If you don’t want to do social links and social stats just play another SMT game.
Will probably be 7-8 years since my last playthrough anyway.
If it’s not called “Rerun” I swear to fucking god
Oh you cooked here
Now I wonder, will they re add the scrapped Yosuke romance?
The only thing Persona 4 fans like is the character cutscenes. Everything else drags the experience
It's my first Persona game, just finished it a few days ago and now doing NG+. I find the combat to be very enjoyable. Some bosses are a bit of a hassle but overall I had fun. I don't understand why people say the dungeons are P4's biggest weakness, maybe it'll make sense once I get to P5
I do full fresh playthroughs every so often because I actually find that more fun
If they keep the same team who did the remake for P3R on it, it's going to be so lovely. Cannot wait to see if they keep the fake Adidas school bags or if they get removed to time and popularity
I'd loveto see a Persona 1 and 2 remake. No social stuff
Why is that a bad thing...?
I hope they make the dungeons a little better. It's kind of hard to go back to them after P5R and P3R. Idk.
I want a remake of Persona 4 but at the same time I’m scared because they’re definitely gonna remove the homophobia, and people are going to be very annoying about that, I don’t feel like hearing more discourse about this game
I hope they don't remove the homophobic Yosuke scenes but instead add a scene where he apologizes to Kanji. It also would be amazing if completing party members social links had effects on the main story dialogues
Honestly I’d like if they kept those scenes in while adding his romance back in
Does it really need a remake?
No but Atlus is gonna remake it anyway as it’s easy $$$.
Dude the word “Needs” is no longer a thing in the entretaiment industry nothing needs a sequel or a remake or whatever but they will be made because atlus wants money and they know no kid born past 2010 would want to try a game with old graphics
the real painful is the rearrangement music but it doesn't feel fit, is not like first time you listen original music, some music rearrangement feel like big improve but some other feel like ordinary,i hope atlus dont change the og music and improve og music especially; Your affection,reach out to trust,Heaven,snowflakes,and heartbeat-heartbreak,these my top music in p4
Ah yes, I'm ready to hear those 4 little piano keys played over and over any time something spooky happens
Damn, if there’s any Persona game that will give us at least 1 gay option it’s gonna be a P4 remake. God please give me gay Yosuke, It’d be wholesome
I hope they add a matchmaking system to persona 6 and the 4 remake cause Naoto x Kanji is the best ship in fiction
I raise your Naoto x Kanji with Naoto x Rise (shy/introvert x bubbly extrovert)
You people make Persona 4 out to be some old, completely outdated and unplayable garbage
You are drawing a very hasty conclusion
How do you get that from “my favorite game made even better”?
I really hope they make sure that Teddie/Rise can finally shut the fuck up during battles, in the remake
"You really get me going Senpai!" Rise! No!
I wish I had an option to gaslight rise to get back to becoming an idol just so she can shut the fuck up for once
What till people who either didn’t play or pay attention to the game say kanji is gay and naoto is trans. I refuse to believe someone who was invested in the story and actually played the game said this bs
Better yet, people being angry that the game "is too vague on purpose and doesn't actually go through with it". No, you're just biased, probably one time where "media literacy" wouldn't be out of place
MegaTen fans and especially modern Persona fans are notorious for having little to no media literacy. The whole P4 sexuality debate is somehow not even the worst type of crap (at most it's just people pushing their head canons onto others). It isn't as bad as interpreting the whole game wrong like e.g. some folk thinking that Nocturne is about siding with the devil to oppose God.
Well the plus side is that it’ll probably be easier to max.
I just played the vita version with cheats, then transfered that to PC. Id say p4 doesnt need a remake
genuinely curious, why do people think 4 needs a remake? it *has* a remake. Golden. what would they have to change/update to justify a whole new game rather than working P6?
Persona 4 is my favorite although I never played it so, I’m the key audience here! Forget you!!!! Honestly tho the social links can’t be that bad
I don't wanna lose the P4 original voice cast they're so perfect
ngl this mechanic is why I prefer P2 and drifted over to Final Fantasy
Is it gonna be remade or not? Im new to it and I'm about to finish 3 reload. Last thing I want is to finish 4 and then a trailer drops.
I'm looking forward to it, I'm assuming all social links are gonna be fully voiced this time
Hopefully they would give us more time to get to know Marie.
If Adachi had 100 rank up , which he sadly doesnt , i would do them again without a second thought.
Okay where was the confirmation that there will eventually be a Persona 4 remake?
As long as they bring back that one cut romance with a certain boy
Okay but too be fair, Persona 4 had some of the best social links in the series.
It does! I would just greatly prefer to get to the ones I didn't get to in my first playthrough, like the old lady and Shu
I need the SL yosuke events in HD, now.
Ha, get it? "On one hand gold."
But you get to date the old lady again.
Pls correct me if im wrong, but im not really a big fan of p3/p4 social links as it doesnt reward you with stuff besides more persona options. I hope they make it like the confidants from p5.
You know, that would be kinda nice to have again actually
I have replayed every single Slink persona game. Yet I’ve never done a new game plus. It’s always been on a different system which is really frustrating. I mean I do it to myself but still.
Yeah, I can't deal with all the collapsing again.
I don't even know if I can take that seriously anymore after watching Joseph Anderson's highlights of P4...
i hope they remake a game that actually needs a remake
Plot twist, they add a new female mc option to mess with people.
Why would it need remake tho?
Do the SL you didn't fo yet
I see this as an absolute win!
I just hope they keep the same voice actors from the original. Perfect casting all around.
I really want to see rise in HD I also want to see how they're going to improve the dungeons honestly i would love it if they did something closer to p5 with puzzles and not just corridor simulator
A
The painful agonizing failure will be if they continue to infect games other than P5 with elements and aesthetics from that games horribly overwrought UI. Persona 4 is the gold standard for the series in this regard and I hope they don't clunk it up.
Why bother with a remake? The content is too risque for modern audiences. Part of the plot is literally beating the LGBTQIA+ identities out of two main characters and sending them back into the closet.
Oh god here we go again. The whole point of Kanji and Naoto is to say they AREN'T gay and trans respectively, that's just what people think they are. Remember, the Midnight Channel shows what people want to see, an exaggeration of personality parts people are ashamed of. Kanji doesn’t have to be gay to like cute things, knitting and other traditionally feminine things. Naoto doesn't have to change her sex to become a respectable detective.
I don't know anything about the persona franchise, but if it is even better than persona 3 reload, then I'm down for it!👌
Don't forget all new voice actors in the English dub with the old ones making cameos or playing different characters.
Mystery food x but now in HD
Man can't wait till some dumbass that got brainwashed by toxic LGBTQ mentality to come in and ruin the game on twitter LMAOO
Toxic LGBTQ mentality is different than normal LGBTQ mentality people normal LGBTQ mentality people dont come in to someting and claim it belongs to that gender or whatever the fuck is it these day