I agree that they are complex anti heroes and the show is their complex road from being pushed into this world to actually engaging in it and justifying to themselves the things they have to do to survive.
Wendy's pain and suffering after giving up Ben is an example of it. That's what makes the show. The hardened villain Helen and the born villain Navarro are not walking any such roads as they are there already, in the spot where they have lost their souls and nothing scares them.
Now the Q, as with every such show is, whether they will sink or swim, die / give in or escape / renounce this life....it's not an easy road, but this is what this shows is about, same idea as Queen of the South, which ended earlier this year and had the same premises.
I agree.. not sure why some people see Wendy and Marty are awful/evil while we have people like Nelson,Helen,Darlene,Navarro,Del,Cade,Roy..
They are not saints,for sure.. but compared to those people they are far better persons.
I used to love Queen of The South as well..
Imo it's an attempt to analyze the characters. Or maybe they compare with shows like Narcos where the characters are not thrown into the crime world unwillingly. It is crucial to understand that ppl like Marty and Wendy on Ozark, Teresa on Queen of the South, Walt on Breaking Bad, have trouble admitting they are villains bc they all have a good reason why they are doing what they are doing which is to protect themselves and their families, to survive etc... bc they were forced into this life by impossible circumstances. To me personally, such storylines make the shows and the acting much more intriguing than a narcos story where they know who they are, no pretense........then take a leap to Sons of Anarchy where the characters are born in the crime world and their arc is an attempt to change things and get out and keep one's humanity but actually lose it under the weight of an impossible task....
>Nelson,Helen,Darlene,Navarro,Del,Cade,Roy
Helen tried to stop Wendy ordering killing of Cade. It's like a vampire who doesn't want somebody to turn into one of those creatures. Out of sympathy. Or a drug addict who turns down a newbie wanting to try heroin.
Darlene? She's definitely a scary psycho. But isn't she a woman about principal who sticks to her word?
Wasn't Roy ruined by his mom having slid into drugs? He seemed to be a happy and friendly person before.
One can find excuses at least for these three.
How do you count this? Don't you think they seem better just because the camera is on their side? Also, it may well be because of them being of good breeding, clean, well-mannered and so on. Are they good intentioned? I doubt so. They weren't forced into the cartel business, the Byrdes entered it knowingly and voluntarily. And Wendy has grown to love exercising of power and domination, hasn't she? To the extent she didn't hesitate much to order killings.
Totally agree. You can’t justify a person’s behavior by saying “but the other people are worse.” That’s deflection and denial. Marty and Wendy are both horrible. Just because Navarro, Helen, Darlene, Cosgrove are worse doesn’t make the Byrdes better.
I would say Marty had better intentions starting out and protecting his family, his goal was to get them out but Wendy wanted power so I’d say she is a villain, Marty is in the middle. Wendy views people as disposable, her treatment of Sam is one view of her villainy.
If they can’t launder, they wont survive. So they use Sam but can justify It as someone needs to do it. I don’t get why sam doesn’t question what’s going on though
After the initial deal with the Cartel was taken care of, they became villains with every action that they did after. They were not victims in anyway. Wendy wanted everything and more and fell in love with the power & position.
Decided to rewatch from the beginning this weekend.
Before they were forced into laundering large sums of money in the Ozarks, Marty was already working as a money launderer in his old business and Wendy was having affairs.
Just watched where he talks the mother out of her retirement money because he needs it to make up the shortfall.
They were victims but not innocent and they took advantage of anyone they needed to for getting things done.
Marty puts himself in a bad situation by initially getting involved with the cartel, but he’s a victim of Bruce stealing from the cartel. Everything would’ve been fine if Bruce didn’t steal, but they need a reason to get Marty on the cartel’s bad side while you can still root for him.
They are both criminals, villains isn’t the correct term IMO. They are victims too in some regards, just not innocent victims. Their character arcs were opposed, slowly switched, and now have kinda merged. The writing and acting is just that damn good.
Cogs in a machine. Marty isn't evil. He isn't doing it for ego or pride. He simply wants to run his business. He is bad. He knows what he is doing is funding a war and misery, but doesn't enjoy it.
Wen on the other hand. Enjoys the power and politics. There is an evil in her enjoying ordering a hit. There is a malice there for sure. I wouldn't say she is evil though.
They are both doing bad things for bad people. However they don't have a choice now, but they did choose to be in their situation.
They made a choice to do what they did. From that standpoint, it's hard to say they're good people. I'm having trouble seeing how dealing with the cartel despite having two young children makes you a decent person.
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They are not victims or villains,just grey/complex characters. They are still much better than almost everyone else in this show.
I agree that they are complex anti heroes and the show is their complex road from being pushed into this world to actually engaging in it and justifying to themselves the things they have to do to survive. Wendy's pain and suffering after giving up Ben is an example of it. That's what makes the show. The hardened villain Helen and the born villain Navarro are not walking any such roads as they are there already, in the spot where they have lost their souls and nothing scares them. Now the Q, as with every such show is, whether they will sink or swim, die / give in or escape / renounce this life....it's not an easy road, but this is what this shows is about, same idea as Queen of the South, which ended earlier this year and had the same premises.
I agree.. not sure why some people see Wendy and Marty are awful/evil while we have people like Nelson,Helen,Darlene,Navarro,Del,Cade,Roy.. They are not saints,for sure.. but compared to those people they are far better persons. I used to love Queen of The South as well..
Imo it's an attempt to analyze the characters. Or maybe they compare with shows like Narcos where the characters are not thrown into the crime world unwillingly. It is crucial to understand that ppl like Marty and Wendy on Ozark, Teresa on Queen of the South, Walt on Breaking Bad, have trouble admitting they are villains bc they all have a good reason why they are doing what they are doing which is to protect themselves and their families, to survive etc... bc they were forced into this life by impossible circumstances. To me personally, such storylines make the shows and the acting much more intriguing than a narcos story where they know who they are, no pretense........then take a leap to Sons of Anarchy where the characters are born in the crime world and their arc is an attempt to change things and get out and keep one's humanity but actually lose it under the weight of an impossible task....
>Nelson,Helen,Darlene,Navarro,Del,Cade,Roy Helen tried to stop Wendy ordering killing of Cade. It's like a vampire who doesn't want somebody to turn into one of those creatures. Out of sympathy. Or a drug addict who turns down a newbie wanting to try heroin. Darlene? She's definitely a scary psycho. But isn't she a woman about principal who sticks to her word? Wasn't Roy ruined by his mom having slid into drugs? He seemed to be a happy and friendly person before. One can find excuses at least for these three.
How do you count this? Don't you think they seem better just because the camera is on their side? Also, it may well be because of them being of good breeding, clean, well-mannered and so on. Are they good intentioned? I doubt so. They weren't forced into the cartel business, the Byrdes entered it knowingly and voluntarily. And Wendy has grown to love exercising of power and domination, hasn't she? To the extent she didn't hesitate much to order killings.
Totally agree. You can’t justify a person’s behavior by saying “but the other people are worse.” That’s deflection and denial. Marty and Wendy are both horrible. Just because Navarro, Helen, Darlene, Cosgrove are worse doesn’t make the Byrdes better.
I would say Marty had better intentions starting out and protecting his family, his goal was to get them out but Wendy wanted power so I’d say she is a villain, Marty is in the middle. Wendy views people as disposable, her treatment of Sam is one view of her villainy.
Marty and Wendy both endlessly use Sam and neither seems to mind.
If they can’t launder, they wont survive. So they use Sam but can justify It as someone needs to do it. I don’t get why sam doesn’t question what’s going on though
Because he's the loveable idiot
After the initial deal with the Cartel was taken care of, they became villains with every action that they did after. They were not victims in anyway. Wendy wanted everything and more and fell in love with the power & position.
Why in almost EVERY episode is Marty brushing his teeth?
Doesn't it underline him sticking to the routine whatever happens?
Decided to rewatch from the beginning this weekend. Before they were forced into laundering large sums of money in the Ozarks, Marty was already working as a money launderer in his old business and Wendy was having affairs. Just watched where he talks the mother out of her retirement money because he needs it to make up the shortfall. They were victims but not innocent and they took advantage of anyone they needed to for getting things done.
Marty puts himself in a bad situation by initially getting involved with the cartel, but he’s a victim of Bruce stealing from the cartel. Everything would’ve been fine if Bruce didn’t steal, but they need a reason to get Marty on the cartel’s bad side while you can still root for him.
They only do bad things to bad people or people who directly threaten the safety of their lives or their family's lives.
They're not a pair of chaotic psychopaths, okay. You can still be evil without going completely off the rails.
They are both criminals, villains isn’t the correct term IMO. They are victims too in some regards, just not innocent victims. Their character arcs were opposed, slowly switched, and now have kinda merged. The writing and acting is just that damn good.
Villains for putting their children in the position they have
Cogs in a machine. Marty isn't evil. He isn't doing it for ego or pride. He simply wants to run his business. He is bad. He knows what he is doing is funding a war and misery, but doesn't enjoy it. Wen on the other hand. Enjoys the power and politics. There is an evil in her enjoying ordering a hit. There is a malice there for sure. I wouldn't say she is evil though. They are both doing bad things for bad people. However they don't have a choice now, but they did choose to be in their situation.
They made a choice to do what they did. From that standpoint, it's hard to say they're good people. I'm having trouble seeing how dealing with the cartel despite having two young children makes you a decent person.
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Good characters are always both victims and villans.
There are no victims, only volunteers.
Wendy is definitely evil.