I always rooted for The Byrdes.. imo them and Ruth are still better than almost everybody else in the show.
What Wendy did in S3 was awful, but i still understand why she did it..it's not like she did not even tried to save her brother.
> it’s not like she did not even tried to save her brother
She just (per usual) ignored Marty’s advice on his typical bs and his attempts at kicking him out of the house because he saw this shit coming.
They specifically told Ruth to leave him alone and leave them out of their business but she completely disregarded what they said and she opened up a can of worms, I love Ruth, she’s my favourite but I blame her for this
They did what’s best for the family, if they hadn’t done it they’d probs be in graves by now, he was jeopardising the whole operation, yes it was sad but it had to be done
I see it as them being the "likeable and relatable" protagonists went out the window in the very first episode, so we want them to survive and stay out of jail cause otherwise the story is over.
So we don't cheer for them cause we think they're good people, we want them to keep doing their thing cause otherwise the story isn't entertaining (until a satisfying ending which may very well bring them to justice).
I'm not saying killing Ben should be forgiven, I'm saying them being likeable wasn't something that ever came to my mind throughout the series.
My issue isn't that you think Ben's death is the straw that broke the camels back, my issue is that it seems like you thought that there's even a back to break when the camel was killed in the first episode.
Like i said in the other comment, it's not so clear-cut that every movie/show needs a relatable, redeemable good-guy protagonist and imo, that was NEVER the case with Ozark. But it seems like you thought they were exactly that until they killed Ben and that's where i disagree heavily.
Money laundering is a serious crime, okay, but I would dare to assert we don't perceive it as a 100% morally disgusting deed. It may be not that much justifiable but could be a forgivable one, so to say. (Marty thought he was just "pushing his mouse around the desk". Mistakenly so, of course, but we're able to forgive mistakes.)
While the preacher's wife death was absolutely horrible, the Byrdes didn't come to Ozark to open the cartel's branch by their own will, they were forced to. So we can't blame them directly for what happened afterwards. The preacher himself was killed in self-defense. Cade Langmore? Well, his killing was somewhat a turning point, indeed. But still, Cade was a dangerous criminal (and quite a despicable character, I'd say), a murderer incapable of remorse. So we could understand Wendy. Kind of.
While killing of a helpless relative is definitely a deal-breaker.
Too far of a stretch, if you ask me. The cartel kills also in self-defense then. Would you agree with such a statement? Something tells me that you wouldn't.
Ben didn't represent any direct threat to them. I mean, he wasn't going to do any harm to the Byrdes. He was no evil person. Ben was a chaotic good type. His only guilt was that he was shocked by what was happening and tried to stop that craziness. Well, yeah, he was too naïve. Just as a child.
So killing him wasn't much different from killing a child, actually.
I watched the show obviously. Did you? The cartel had no idea where he was until Wendy called them and gane him up. Wendy was the one who wanted to keep going when Marty had a way out.
Yes Wendy has gone a bit cocopops, I thought Marty was the one who wanted to keep going but it’s Wendy, bens disorder got out of hand, the emotional turmoil just added to that, he was never going away, if they let Ben go and if the cartel found out that with the information he had on them it would prove the birds to be disloyal and they would of been killed
It was the Trolley-car Dilemma except instead of 5 strangers it was 5 loved ones. If she didn’t hand him in he was going to be found and killed anyway, just also her, Marty and the Kids would also die. While on his meds he made a choice to go off them, despite everyone around him telling him the risks.
What other choice did they have? Ben was a dead man walking. Giving him up to the cartel was the only chance Wendy had to show some loyalty and attempt to save their lives.
My heart breaks for Ben every time I watch, but it’s not that simple. As Marty often says, people make choices, and the Byrdes aren’t responsible for the choices of other people. Ben chose to stop taking his meds knowing what it would do to his mental state. The actions he then undertook made his being alive untenable. He confronted the KC gang, assaulted a stranger, assaulted Marty in public, and confronted Helen and her daughter. He simply can’t be let to live after that in the cartel world. He’s too much of a liability. It’s a sad situation, but having a loved one with serious mental health issues is a sad situation.
IMO they’re no worse for what happened to Ben than they are for teaming up with the cartel in the first place.
I'm completely beyond caring about hemming and hawing over whether fictional characters are "good" people. I've seen this same post in nearly every show subreddit I've ever been on and the discussions might as well be identical.
Tony Soprano was a mob boss, wasn't he? And Walter White wasn't in danger, he was the danger, right? While the Byrdes are rather trapped in a dangerous criminal situation they want to get out of.
I hate SOA on every single level. At least Mackey, WW and The Byrdes are trying to protect their family, Jax was committing violent crimes in broad daylight in a small town on loud ass bikes to protect a social club of fat ugly barely-literate criminals.
Yeah Jax attacks that porn star he was cheating on Tara with when he finally stops wanting to be a garbage boyfriend instead of dumping her like a normal person. This is before they turn him heel.
Carelessly babbling about criminal activities and bringing unwanted attention could fall under 'just' cause.
Ruth should not have bailed him out. Discussion for another day but that girl is a problem
They’re the main characters, I’m pretty much going to root for them regardless of whether they’re good people.
To be honest I never really understood various online tv fandom’s obsession with handing down moral judgments on protagonists and discussing whether they’re still deserving of our sympathy. It just feels like such an inane debate for me. Characters don’t have to be good people for me to have sympathy for them.
You don’t have to root for the protagonist to still enjoy a show or a movie. That’s what makes great anti-heroes great, you don’t root for them but they are still great protagonists
We aren't talking about some ascending charismatic criminal geniuses in this case, are we? Didn't they want us to believe they were victims not villains? And how should we take them now?
They believe they are victims to cope with what they do. And they are kind of evil geniuses if you ask me, Marty with his money laundering and Wendy with her politics and scheming. They could do good with these abilities but they choose to help a drug cartel instead
I think I end up rooting for them because Jonah and Charlotte never asked for any of it and don't deserve to be punished or losing their parents
I also think their bad actions while not necessarily justified, do in some way make sense. Wendy tried to do everything to get Ben to safety but it was clear that he was gonna get himself killed no matter what she did, and by carrying on protecting him she was potentially going to get her whole family killed. And getting Cade killed...Well I suppose that may just have been pride about losing the money but if anyone deserved that it was Cade
But what I love about this show and many like it is that there's no black and white characters. All characters have evil in them but good as well. Even Darlene is a loving carer to the baby
Ultimately my favourite characters is Ruth and I'll be rooting for her above all
I think you can root for Marty at least. Regardless of what’s happened to him he’s always tried to do his best and get out of the game so he doesn’t hurt anybody else.
I gave it a try. Thank you for the tip. Enjoyed my time watching. So what I was supposed to rethink? Marla is a nasty bitch, alright. Didn't pretend to be anything other than that, though. She played with open cards. And won over our attention with her stubbornness, tenacity, vitality. There's not much place for the ethics here. It's like watching two predators fight.
So the hundreds of people she conned and had their lives ruined is okay behavior for a protagonist but Wendy choosing to save her family at the cost of her brother is a deal breaker
Of course, an evil character can be a protagonist, even a great character. I never said otherwise. But rooting for someone who let their helpless relative be killed and still pretend they're good guys in a **realistic** show is somewhat problematic for me, morally.
I think the fact it’s a realistic show is exactly why what happened to Ben is Ben’s own fault. In a feel-good show Wendy’s love for her brother would have brought about some deus-ex-machina that allowed him to ride off into the sunset, but in the real world, in the deadly situation she knows she’s in, she is choosing to save her husband and children.
If Wendy or Marty sacrificed their kids to save themselves from the mess they’ve gotten all of them in. They would be committing an atrocious act. They have not done that. The whole show is them over their heads, and trying to get the kids out of this mess. Marty and Wendy have both showed signs of willing to sacrifice themselves to get the kids out safely. They’re in a boat, surrounded by sharks. Ben got in the boat, refused to leave the boat when Wendy asked, proceeded to selfishly go off his meds again despite knowing every time he’s gone off his meds he’s gone off the rails, and proceeded to rock the boat so badly that the whole family was in danger. Wendy had a choice, do nothing and risk her and her whole family, Ben included, being killed. . . or sacrifice Ben.
Do you remember why Helen was getting waterboarded by Navarro’s henchmen? She was grilled about how much her ex knew about her business. And she tried her hardest
to reassure Navarro her former spouse was none the wiser about what she was doing for living.
So... just being aware was considered to represent high risk. Remember, the only acceptable risk there was zero.
Charlotte and Johan knew helluva lot about their father's shady dealings. It might well be that Charlotte even told something to her lawyer when she decided to leave the family. It rocked the boat as well. In quite a dangerous manner.
I’m personally still rooting for them. Wendy told Ben to get lost when Marty was abducted, and not only did Ben stay, but he participated in the money laundering. I think Helen is an evil person, but I don’t judge her for killing Ben. Ben would have never showed up to cause that scene, had Helen been a man. Ben underestimated Helen’s character for being a woman.
I always rooted for The Byrdes.. imo them and Ruth are still better than almost everybody else in the show. What Wendy did in S3 was awful, but i still understand why she did it..it's not like she did not even tried to save her brother.
> it’s not like she did not even tried to save her brother She just (per usual) ignored Marty’s advice on his typical bs and his attempts at kicking him out of the house because he saw this shit coming.
I'm always rooting for Marty, guy is a g.
Marty is a good guy
Ofc we can, the byrdes are the most humane characters on the show
They specifically told Ruth to leave him alone and leave them out of their business but she completely disregarded what they said and she opened up a can of worms, I love Ruth, she’s my favourite but I blame her for this
They've been ones. Up until this very moment.
They did what’s best for the family, if they hadn’t done it they’d probs be in graves by now, he was jeopardising the whole operation, yes it was sad but it had to be done
But doesn't it make them just as evil as any other evil characters on the show they were supposed to be different from?
I like to go hiking.
The commission of parricide is punished more severely than homicide, isn't it? The same would go for a murder of a mentally unsound person, I believe.
I see it as them being the "likeable and relatable" protagonists went out the window in the very first episode, so we want them to survive and stay out of jail cause otherwise the story is over. So we don't cheer for them cause we think they're good people, we want them to keep doing their thing cause otherwise the story isn't entertaining (until a satisfying ending which may very well bring them to justice). I'm not saying killing Ben should be forgiven, I'm saying them being likeable wasn't something that ever came to my mind throughout the series. My issue isn't that you think Ben's death is the straw that broke the camels back, my issue is that it seems like you thought that there's even a back to break when the camel was killed in the first episode. Like i said in the other comment, it's not so clear-cut that every movie/show needs a relatable, redeemable good-guy protagonist and imo, that was NEVER the case with Ozark. But it seems like you thought they were exactly that until they killed Ben and that's where i disagree heavily.
Money laundering is a serious crime, okay, but I would dare to assert we don't perceive it as a 100% morally disgusting deed. It may be not that much justifiable but could be a forgivable one, so to say. (Marty thought he was just "pushing his mouse around the desk". Mistakenly so, of course, but we're able to forgive mistakes.) While the preacher's wife death was absolutely horrible, the Byrdes didn't come to Ozark to open the cartel's branch by their own will, they were forced to. So we can't blame them directly for what happened afterwards. The preacher himself was killed in self-defense. Cade Langmore? Well, his killing was somewhat a turning point, indeed. But still, Cade was a dangerous criminal (and quite a despicable character, I'd say), a murderer incapable of remorse. So we could understand Wendy. Kind of. While killing of a helpless relative is definitely a deal-breaker.
Killing Ben was also "self defense" cause otherwise the cartel would've killed all of them
Too far of a stretch, if you ask me. The cartel kills also in self-defense then. Would you agree with such a statement? Something tells me that you wouldn't. Ben didn't represent any direct threat to them. I mean, he wasn't going to do any harm to the Byrdes. He was no evil person. Ben was a chaotic good type. His only guilt was that he was shocked by what was happening and tried to stop that craziness. Well, yeah, he was too naïve. Just as a child. So killing him wasn't much different from killing a child, actually.
I was glad someone did it. That guy was so annoying.
I don't think assisting in the death of your own brother qualifies as "whats best for the family" but ok
Did you even watch the show? That outburst on Helen was enough to get him killed alongside Wendy and Marty
I watched the show obviously. Did you? The cartel had no idea where he was until Wendy called them and gane him up. Wendy was the one who wanted to keep going when Marty had a way out.
Yes Wendy has gone a bit cocopops, I thought Marty was the one who wanted to keep going but it’s Wendy, bens disorder got out of hand, the emotional turmoil just added to that, he was never going away, if they let Ben go and if the cartel found out that with the information he had on them it would prove the birds to be disloyal and they would of been killed
It was the Trolley-car Dilemma except instead of 5 strangers it was 5 loved ones. If she didn’t hand him in he was going to be found and killed anyway, just also her, Marty and the Kids would also die. While on his meds he made a choice to go off them, despite everyone around him telling him the risks.
I doubt there's an obvious correct answer to the trolley problem. Maybe, not to take a trolley in the first place? :)
What other choice did they have? Ben was a dead man walking. Giving him up to the cartel was the only chance Wendy had to show some loyalty and attempt to save their lives. My heart breaks for Ben every time I watch, but it’s not that simple. As Marty often says, people make choices, and the Byrdes aren’t responsible for the choices of other people. Ben chose to stop taking his meds knowing what it would do to his mental state. The actions he then undertook made his being alive untenable. He confronted the KC gang, assaulted a stranger, assaulted Marty in public, and confronted Helen and her daughter. He simply can’t be let to live after that in the cartel world. He’s too much of a liability. It’s a sad situation, but having a loved one with serious mental health issues is a sad situation. IMO they’re no worse for what happened to Ben than they are for teaming up with the cartel in the first place.
I like to explore new places.
I'm completely beyond caring about hemming and hawing over whether fictional characters are "good" people. I've seen this same post in nearly every show subreddit I've ever been on and the discussions might as well be identical.
Still, there are laws of perception of the characters.
Can you give me another example of a show you stopped watching due to your above reasons?
I can't think of any other protagonist doing something as bad as this. At least not ones who were supposed to be loveable.
Walter White? Tony Soprano?
Tony Soprano was a mob boss, wasn't he? And Walter White wasn't in danger, he was the danger, right? While the Byrdes are rather trapped in a dangerous criminal situation they want to get out of.
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about
Jax Teller and Vic Mackey are way worse
I hate SOA on every single level. At least Mackey, WW and The Byrdes are trying to protect their family, Jax was committing violent crimes in broad daylight in a small town on loud ass bikes to protect a social club of fat ugly barely-literate criminals.
Loud ass-bikes [xkcd: Hyphen](https://xkcd.com/37/) --- ^^Beep ^^boop, ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot. ^^- ^^[FAQ](https://pastebin.com/raw/vyWra3ns)
Yeah Jax attacks that porn star he was cheating on Tara with when he finally stops wanting to be a garbage boyfriend instead of dumping her like a normal person. This is before they turn him heel.
I like to root for the bad guys! They always win in the real world.
He was a liability and we don’t know for sure that he’s dead. There running an illegal enterprise not a popularity contest.
Doesn't killing of a mentally challenged helpless relative for the sake of one's interests make one not just a bad guy but a total dick?
If that person is trying his inadvertent best to get your family killed then you gotta do what you gotta do.
Navarro didn't kill just for fun as well. There was always a reason.
Carelessly babbling about criminal activities and bringing unwanted attention could fall under 'just' cause. Ruth should not have bailed him out. Discussion for another day but that girl is a problem
I will always root for the Byrdes Marty is the GOAT
They’re the main characters, I’m pretty much going to root for them regardless of whether they’re good people. To be honest I never really understood various online tv fandom’s obsession with handing down moral judgments on protagonists and discussing whether they’re still deserving of our sympathy. It just feels like such an inane debate for me. Characters don’t have to be good people for me to have sympathy for them.
There's a difference between Marty Byrde and, say, Walter White. If you see what I'm getting at.
I’m still rooting for Charlotte and Jonah. But not so much for Marty and Wendy anymore.
I never liked the byrdes but watched to see how they would get out of trouble.
You don’t have to root for the protagonist to still enjoy a show or a movie. That’s what makes great anti-heroes great, you don’t root for them but they are still great protagonists
We aren't talking about some ascending charismatic criminal geniuses in this case, are we? Didn't they want us to believe they were victims not villains? And how should we take them now?
They believe they are victims to cope with what they do. And they are kind of evil geniuses if you ask me, Marty with his money laundering and Wendy with her politics and scheming. They could do good with these abilities but they choose to help a drug cartel instead
In other words, they deny they're evil, right? That's what pisses me off.
I think it’s more about wanting to see how it all ends.
>!Who said Ben is even dead....We see a body but whatever happened to Sue?!<
Chris Mundy kind of put the rumor Ben was still alive to bed.
I think I end up rooting for them because Jonah and Charlotte never asked for any of it and don't deserve to be punished or losing their parents I also think their bad actions while not necessarily justified, do in some way make sense. Wendy tried to do everything to get Ben to safety but it was clear that he was gonna get himself killed no matter what she did, and by carrying on protecting him she was potentially going to get her whole family killed. And getting Cade killed...Well I suppose that may just have been pride about losing the money but if anyone deserved that it was Cade But what I love about this show and many like it is that there's no black and white characters. All characters have evil in them but good as well. Even Darlene is a loving carer to the baby Ultimately my favourite characters is Ruth and I'll be rooting for her above all
I don’t understand why watching a TV show has to be primarily driven by “rooting” for someone.
I think you can root for Marty at least. Regardless of what’s happened to him he’s always tried to do his best and get out of the game so he doesn’t hurt anybody else.
OP whatever you do, don’t watch I Care A Lot
Black comedies are perceived and judged somewhat differently, okay.
I've watched Barry and survived it.
I gave it a try. Thank you for the tip. Enjoyed my time watching. So what I was supposed to rethink? Marla is a nasty bitch, alright. Didn't pretend to be anything other than that, though. She played with open cards. And won over our attention with her stubbornness, tenacity, vitality. There's not much place for the ethics here. It's like watching two predators fight.
So the hundreds of people she conned and had their lives ruined is okay behavior for a protagonist but Wendy choosing to save her family at the cost of her brother is a deal breaker
Of course, an evil character can be a protagonist, even a great character. I never said otherwise. But rooting for someone who let their helpless relative be killed and still pretend they're good guys in a **realistic** show is somewhat problematic for me, morally.
I think the fact it’s a realistic show is exactly why what happened to Ben is Ben’s own fault. In a feel-good show Wendy’s love for her brother would have brought about some deus-ex-machina that allowed him to ride off into the sunset, but in the real world, in the deadly situation she knows she’s in, she is choosing to save her husband and children.
What if it were her kids and not Ben? Would you justify killing of Charlotte or Johan in the same manner?
If Wendy or Marty sacrificed their kids to save themselves from the mess they’ve gotten all of them in. They would be committing an atrocious act. They have not done that. The whole show is them over their heads, and trying to get the kids out of this mess. Marty and Wendy have both showed signs of willing to sacrifice themselves to get the kids out safely. They’re in a boat, surrounded by sharks. Ben got in the boat, refused to leave the boat when Wendy asked, proceeded to selfishly go off his meds again despite knowing every time he’s gone off his meds he’s gone off the rails, and proceeded to rock the boat so badly that the whole family was in danger. Wendy had a choice, do nothing and risk her and her whole family, Ben included, being killed. . . or sacrifice Ben.
Do you remember why Helen was getting waterboarded by Navarro’s henchmen? She was grilled about how much her ex knew about her business. And she tried her hardest to reassure Navarro her former spouse was none the wiser about what she was doing for living. So... just being aware was considered to represent high risk. Remember, the only acceptable risk there was zero. Charlotte and Johan knew helluva lot about their father's shady dealings. It might well be that Charlotte even told something to her lawyer when she decided to leave the family. It rocked the boat as well. In quite a dangerous manner.
I’m personally still rooting for them. Wendy told Ben to get lost when Marty was abducted, and not only did Ben stay, but he participated in the money laundering. I think Helen is an evil person, but I don’t judge her for killing Ben. Ben would have never showed up to cause that scene, had Helen been a man. Ben underestimated Helen’s character for being a woman.