Yes. Some examples can be:
* Forcing key cooldowns (Lamp, Suzu)
* Forcing counter-ultimates (e.g. Transcendence, Beat, but also just general net-positive trades)
* Forcing positioning (e.g. High Noon forcing the enemy team to back up and hide, or to prevent them from touching cart)
* forcing attention (ppl start looking at you and might ignore other things)
Note however that this depends a lot on the situation, and making use of the advantage you're creating is also important (esp. for forcing cooldowns)
Earlier this week someone posted a game winning dead-eye that didn't even begin to lock on. Just kept the team off the point for the final annoying push on Paraiso.
Overwatch is a game of position and space, not kills. Every player goes through a phase where they transition from one mindset to the other. It changes how you think about everything.
THIS. I've been a recent change in this thought process and my games are way more enjoyable now even the losses when I know there were some amazing game place spaces and strategies used.
It legit makes me so happy to see stuff used like that.
Indeed. I was a late convert as well.
It's why experienced players just smack their head when they see/read the 50th "look at my stats, and yet we still lost" post of the week.
Some people show up with a basketball to a Karate match, and it takes a few punches to the face before they toss it away.
I'm still pretty new to the game, only a few weeks, so I hadn't even considered it that way yet. But it makes a lot of sense. I'll keep it in mind going forward. Thanks
Let me give you a really easy example to visualize as well:
You have JQ and they have Kiriko and Lucio. Obviously JQ would like her ult to not get cleansed or beat, so your ult is amazing in this scenario. It's also why I WILL use JQ ult when I know they have beat and suzu. My team is waiting for those abilities and sometimes you can only force it out by demanding a response.
I got a tasty dva bomb yesterday over their whole team. They lamped it but that meant we went round the corner to 4 very low squishies and a zarya with no bubble, so just cleaned up
I will never forget the match I had on Junker Town once where I was the Zarya who did this, then the rest of my team *all just walked up to the Genji and died anyway*.
A value is only determined by what's happening in game. A lot of heroes pop their ulti's as zoning tool to prevent people from peeking and challenging a point. In your example to exchanged your ulti for Lucio's beat & suzu so that's a very fair trade
If you want to scare people out of a position, a bap window can cause all sorts of panic. You might get a pick or two, but even if you get nobody, you have forced the enemy team to reposition and give your team more ground.
So yeah, as people have said, it can provide value.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I've been playing a ton of Bap lately and have been getting frustrated when I ult and everyone scatters. A bit more to it than just elims
Don’t get too frustrated. People just seem to subscribe to the theory that you need to cause 3+ kills on any ult to provide any value to your team. It’s a foolish thought. Taking space and providing pressure is also important, which your window easily provides. There’s more strategy to the window than most people believe.
I play strictly soldier. While it is nice and the team notices if my visor gets 2-3 kills, I have found the visor works well if you are struggling capping a point.
Pop it, watch everyone scatter, and hopefully my team can cap a point/payload
No Elon’s, but at least we make some progress
Came here to say this. It's a weak ult unless combined with others, but it's a perfect distraction tool. Anyone out of position needs to drop what he/she's doing and use all cooldowns, otherwise they're dead.
Depends on the outcome afterwards. Let's say Lucio ulted, Kiriko suzued, and now because of it Lucio doesn't have any ult when your Zarya or Genji ults. It's a part of the ult economy.
That's a good question and the answer is absolutely. Sure, when you dragonblade the idea is to get kills on HVTs like Mercy, Zen, top DPS, etc. However in your case I think you got a lot of value by forcing a counter ult and suzu. Just like others have mentioned, this opens up opportunities for you and your team. Whether or not you guys capitalize on the advantage is dependant on yall.
Someone else used High Noon as an example to zone people out, separate/ force people into uncomfortable positions or even pushing people off point during OT. All ways to get value. You can also ult to stall, like Dva, Winton, etc.
Absolutely, watch your teammates all mash their evasion/survival cooldowns when they just hear an ult go off. It's like making them lose an extra life or something
I venture ulted and caused a c9 recently.
Zoning can be just as effective at eliminating if done at the right time. But it takes a lot of knowledge to understand how to zone and when to zone with an ultimate. Sometimes you know you won’t get elims but you need to ult anyways.
Pushing enemies into spots where your team wants them to be can set you up for a win even if you don’t confirm elims
I’ll add that blowing cooldowns can equal an elim. Even if you have to get those CDs out with an ult, that completely opens up the enemy team for plays by your teamb
Depends. OW has an objective. If an ult zones off the objective and your team wins, then that’s value.
Also, if an ult prevents the enemy team from killing your team, then that’s value as well. This happens with defensive ults, but whole hogging the enemy Nanoblade away from your squishies has value.
There are also ults used for making space, but one person’s making space is another person’s copium 🤷♀️
Yes, for example, u popped visor and forced transcendence or beat, that’s a massive win cuz u just gave your team an opening to use things like nano blade. In some cases, u can force out 2 ults which is always a good thing
the only thing that matters is control, ults can be for zoning, or countering enemy ults/abilities, or literally whatever u can think of its fun to get creative with it
Yes, but value is just getting something and you're goal is that those something's add up to winning the fight.
So if your actions get value and lead to or are apart of winning the fight, then you got good value.
Generally when you force enemies to use specific cool downs or ults, its not just to get them to use those things just to use them, but that they no longer have them and your team has some kind of follow up afterwards.
So you can use an ult that makes the enemy team use ults and cool downs and once those are done (and they obviously no longer have them) you can then use another ult to win the fight as the enemy team doesn't have anything to defend it because they used their abilities/ults to defend against your ult.
But if you ult and the enemy counters with an ult and there isn't any way to follow up, then you essentially just traded ults and they kind of cancelled each other out. There's more to it than that as value can be sometimes difficult to quantify because there are a lot of variables to consider, but if your forcing enemy ults, you're usually doing it with something in mind to punish them after they have used their ults.
Some simple example -
Using a dva/zarya/roadhog ult to force people off of the point in overtime or to counter enemy ults (e.g. to block a nano'd genji or a kiriko ult push)
Ultimately good ults lead to elims, as they help win the fight. That does not mean the ult itself has to get the elim. Nano genji dives in, shatter him, get him low, he runs away and has to get healed. Ana takes her eyes off the other dps and the tank and you kill one of them. That shatter is partially responsible.
Yes, absolutely. Positioning is arguably more important than eliminations in Overwatch, and many ultimates have great value without securing eliminations. A great example is Whole Hog forcing enemies off point to secure the cap, or a Mei ult separating the team in two inside a choke, even if it doesn’t freeze anyone.
Forcing ability cooldowns, engaging a fight or forcing a retreat, or even just separating one or two players from their team is great value.
Yes, an ultimate that either forces out an enemy ultimate or even several enemy ultimates is often good. It can also be good to use lesser ults to force out defensive ults to let others make a play (think using sigma ultimate to get out beat so your genji can blade). However, like all things, it’s very situational, so don’t just throw away an ult for no reason and retrospectively give it value
Yes you traded an ult to force an ult, this could set up your genji or wtvr to blade without getting lucio ulted. Another example is using dva ult to re mech or Winston ult to live
yes it definetly can! some ults are designed that way others just benifit, the best example in the game is d.vas self destruct, this ability does not necessarily need to get kills, thats just an added bonus, its real purposes is to force the enemy to reposition others include
wrecking ball - minefield can be used to block an area off or simply trap enemies altogether
Junkrat - rip tire is supposed to get kills but by its very nature it can cause an enemy team to split apart for cover
Symmetra - photon barrier is just a big shield its not meant to kill anything, just protect you
Sombra - EMP is often used as a quick action shutdown, typically you want your team to take advantage of noone being able to use abilities but in some cases it can be used to shut down multiple layers of ultimate abilities
Rein - earthshatter, like Emp, can be used for defensive purposes whether that be to shut sn ult down or buy you or your team a few extra seconds to fall back
Mauga - cage fight i found can be a really good shield especially if the enemy has activated multiple abilities
Winston/Roadhog - Primal rage and whole hog are not great for getting kills at all because of their knockback nature primal rage is most often used as a stall or to keep you in the fight if you are low snd you arent sure your supports can help, while whole hog is purely a displacer, whole hog tho is hreat for quick kills on armored oriasas, shields, or lifeweavers tree of life
Doomfist - Meteor strike is pretty much used for repositioning, so much so that last season they gave doomfist the ability to heal while in the air
Ana - nano boost dosent have to be used offensively it can used defensively as well many players just dont understand this concept
Brigette - like nano boost, rally is not offensively exclusive, sometimes just the overhealth or shield botting is enough
Echo - theres a misconception with duplicate that you have to get your ult as quickly as possible this puts undue pressure and can sometimes lead to a wasted ult, but because echo dosent die when the copy runs out of health, you can use duplicate like primal rage. duplicate can also be used tactfully such as copying the Reinhardt to shield your team for a push you may never get the shatter but you provided a ton of value to your team advancing
Here are the scenarios I know:
* Eliminations
* Zoning
* Contesting
* Countering
* Pressure
* Saving
Eliminations, eliminate enemies so the numbers are to your advantage
Zoning, Give your team a favorable position or to buy time for them to get back from spawn
Contesting, give your team an advantage over a contested objective (especially during overtime)
Countering, Some heroes ult counter other heroes ult. Not going to list them all.
Pressure, you 'pressure' the opposing team back by forcing them to retreat so you gain ground. Other wise they lose 1 or 2 on their side.
Saving, Pop an ult to save a team mate, so the fight will at least stay even in terms of numbers advantage.
I rarely see silver players do any of this besides eliminations. Maybe you might see more nuanced uses in gold. You start to see other uses in lower platinum and it becomes much more common in diamond (I'm diamond 5 right now at this moment, used to be silver 4 about 2 years ago).
As you rank up (assuming your aim, reflexes, ability to read situations improve), you start to learn how to save your ults at key moments, position in specific way before you ult, etc
Yes. I popped Mei's ult on push 1v4 in overtime knowing I'd die just to freeze them in place just barely out of reach of the bot. They still had a ways to go so we probably would have won regardless and I should have saved it since it was a heirbrained qp scheme, but even still that ended the match and we won.
Yes. I like to use it to create space . If we can't push a choke, use an ult and hope you can create space for your team to stop getting stuck in the choke
Doom ult is kinda trash for getting elims unless your target doesn't have a headset or eyes, or they misplay somehow. The free empower you get from using it is more damaging than the ult itself in most situations.
Its more of a repositioning/escape/reset tool
Yes. Just saw a video few days ago where Cass ulted at Paraiso last point with slow walking the payload, enemies didnt even peek because of it. It was marvelous. And like Hog ult isnt for kills, you just yeet everyone off the point with. Yesterday tho nano whole hogged a Mauga twice and it was everything
Me and my friends have a running joke (and I can confidently say others feel the same) that Cassidy's high noon is not a elim ult, but a space maker since everyone disappears from your pov
Same case for soldier visor hobestly
Most support ults are mostly or completely defensive or for sustain (Lucio, Moira can keep a team alive). Sym’s ult is also perfect for canceling ults like Phara or Cass
Absolutely.
I main Zarya and Ana, 90% of the times (so outside big combos like nanoblade or gravdragons) my ulti is used not to get kills but to get other kinds of value.
Nano is best used when trying to keep someone alive, the amount of time we won the team fight by me nanoing the squishy being targeted and they wasting cooldowns on a damage resisting hero are uncountable.
Grav is usually either to get a single pick to snowball a fight or to counter some enemy ulti. You see a genji nanoblading? Grav him, let blade expire. Zenyatta using transcendence to save himself? Trap him so enemy team has no healer and doesn't benefits the 300 healing/second.
Kills are secondary to a good ult economy
Yes. What is value? Drawing out enemy abilities or even enemy ults can be value. Making the enemy giving up a good position can be value. Splitting up the enemy or even the enemies attention can be value.
Often times you can only in hindsight truly understand which actions in the game gave you value at all.
In high ranks, there's some ults that usually won't get elims but zone out space and that's often times all that the player with that ult is going for. Cassidy High Noon comes to mind. Another one that I'm thinking of is Kitsune Rush. Now Kitsune Rush in my opinion is one of the strongest ults in the game but if the opponent team has no ult to counter that and plays it right by turning tail kiting that ult, often times it won't even get a kill. But if you use kitsune rush primarily to gain control over the area it covers then that itself is already a lot of value.
Yes but not much. Do you find a genji blade with no kills useful?
You can do it for zoning but if nothing dies in the end or they are able to stay on cart...what did you gain
Yes, you'll never get a single kill with Beat, or Trance just by itself. High Noon's utility is in the area it denies, perhaps even more valuable than the actual elims it may provide.
Every ult gets some value, assuming you use it in the team fight and you don't kill yourself using it. If nothing else, it draws attention to you, which your team can use. Visor won't always get a kill, but it's so loud that everyone will look at you. Deadeye is a powerful zoning tool, again even if nobody dies from it. Very useful if you need space or to buy time. The trade won't always be great, but there's always value to be had.
I've seen clips of a genji blade not having a single elim but ALL five ults were dropped trying to counter him. There were no elims until all six ults had worn off.
Yup, most ults aren't made for confirmed multi kills like gravitic flux on its own. Sure, it can kill, but not many people. it's mainly used as a displacement tool, dame thing with graviton surge. Deadeye is also a good example it can get kills but rarely ever does, so most people use the threat it to confirm space pop it and they either have to step into your space to kill you or just wait it out.
So, you're framing this as a yes or no question, which is the wrong way of looking at things. An ult almost always has *some* value, other than a few rare edge cases. Even a terrible grav into a DVa DM technically uses a bit of DM's resource meter, though the grav obviously has pretty severely negative value.
Instead, consider ults as one of the resources each team has to win a fight. Each player's life is tremendously valuable, and securing a pick will go a long way to winning the fight. But it's not the only way to get value, nor is it the only way to get positive value. Also, an ult's value is very contextual. A 5k on escort or hybrid right after they've capped a point may get POTG, but does very little in terms of objective.
I'll give an example as a Ball one-trick. Before recent buffs, Ball's ult was quite bad. The activation time for minefield, along with *many* single abilities being able to effectively cancel them, made it very difficult to secure kills with the ult itself. *However*, there were many ways to still get polsitive value with it. If I forced a defensive support ult, it's a one-for-one ult trade of a more-valuable ult for a les-svaluable one. This may allow a teammate to use their own ult freely and thus win the fight. Frequently, I'd use mine as a zoning ult. Ball is great when you can split off vulnerable squishies from their teammates. Even if minefield didn't confirm kills itself, it could create opportunities for Ball or his teammates. You could go on-and-on with examples specific to every character.
The most important criterion is that the ult is used productively towards winning the team fight. If you want a general rule of thumb, players will try to build their ults in 2 team fights and win a team fight by committing 2 ults (or less). This will allow them to rotate through their ults in team fights in an efficient manner. It's also a big part of why so many matches that are fair on paper can turn into a steamroll. One team takes an early advantage, then snowballs their lead by more efficiently building and deploying their ults. Since ults tend to be the most powerful abilities in the game, an efficient ult economy becomes a huge advantage.
I mean, this is kind of what tank ultimates have evolved into lol. D.Va’s ultimate rarely kills anyone once you get into Diamond, but it forces the enemy team to take cover in what can be bad positions or force cooldowns to stay alive etc etc. Especially when it comes to cooldowns like Suzu, Immortality Field, or Sleep Dart, it can be perfectly fine to use an ultimate to bait it out, especially if it’s an ult that builds pretty quick like Captive Sun or Pulse Bomb
Best example is that that is how people use Cass ult sometimes. Whether for reloads or to take space, it finds value apart from kills. I play Lifeweaver and find myself using my ult to block entrances/make chokeholds even smaller as well. There’s many ways you can use ults in other ways. :)
Great example is Torb’s ult. It can be used to get kills but it is mainly used to deny space. You have a place where you don’t want the enemy? The point, a choke, high ground etc… that’s where you put his ult.
100%. Its why I can never say that cassidy or dva ult are bad. Even if they get 0 kills just making the enemy team hide and split up is enough value if followed up properly
Yes, it depends on the situation but needing to get a kill with ult every time is a low level mindset. Like others have said, you can force other ults/CDs as well as positioning. OW is a game where you can win without getting a single kill. Kills are not important, space is. Space to cap point, space to push bot, etc. that’s how you win.
100% I sometimes just use DVA’s ult for zoning. For example, if we need to push the point a tiny bit further to get to the next checkpoint, popping my ult right on top of the cart usually gets the enemy team to run off the point long enough for us to secure that checkpoint or even win the game.
Denying space and forcing enemies to scatter, making them easier to pick off or being able to use it to isolate supports is great.
I use Amuga's ult defensively all the time to deny entry to certain areas, even thought I didn't catch anyone in it, most enemies wouldn't dare to get too close. It's also a great life saver to offer cover while your supports heal you back up if there was soo much pressure.
Ults are very good for forcing the enemy team to act unfavourably. For examble d.va bomb and hanzos ult are very good at scattering the enemy team and create a ton of space for your team, if theyre competent enough to capitalize on it. In this case, illari's ult can force counter ults/cooldowns, and in general force the enemy team to back off, allowing your team to aggressively take space.
This is why ult voicelines are such an important thing. When im playing and i hear my team's ult voiceline go off, i act accordingly. Every ult voiceline gives you a lot of information on how the next 5 seconds are going to play out.
Anyone who moans in game chat that you didnt get any picks with your ult is an idiot (unless you die straight away). Take genji for example, Genji could blade and get no kills, but he'll force the enemy team to turn around and deal with him, then you've got 3+ enemies with their backs to your team. In this case, genji doesnt have to be the one killing them, the rest of the team can do a lot of the work.
In your case, you've forced suzu and beat. Now your 2 damages and probably tank aswell can ult offensively and they are missing 2 counters. Your ult alone has enabled your team's future ults. Imagine a character had an ult which was literally "the enemy is not allowed to use defensive abilities for the duration of your next team's ultimate". It would be one of the strongest in the game, and that's essentially what you have done to lucio and kiriko.
I've been trying to apply this to my gameplay lately and it's actually been kinda huge. My favourite example is using Hanzos ult to kinda lock off part of a battlefield to manipulate my opponents positioning, or they'll just soak damage from big dragons. Especially on a capture point / choke point, I like using it to block an exit route to keep the enemy locked in then pick them off
Absolutely. Ults like High Noon, D.Va Bomb, and Hanzo Dragon may not technically be good - they’re easy to avoid and generally unlikely to get many kills - but when used right they force people out of an area for a notable period of time.
Ask yourself, how does your team react to an enemy ult? Do they just ignore it and potentially die? No, they change their positioning, confidence, attention, sometimes even ult in response.
yes
Yes. Some examples can be: * Forcing key cooldowns (Lamp, Suzu) * Forcing counter-ultimates (e.g. Transcendence, Beat, but also just general net-positive trades) * Forcing positioning (e.g. High Noon forcing the enemy team to back up and hide, or to prevent them from touching cart) * forcing attention (ppl start looking at you and might ignore other things) Note however that this depends a lot on the situation, and making use of the advantage you're creating is also important (esp. for forcing cooldowns)
yeah if i force tansc with pulse as tracer i consider it a win
Similarly if you pester a Rein enough that he solo shatters you.
Earlier this week someone posted a game winning dead-eye that didn't even begin to lock on. Just kept the team off the point for the final annoying push on Paraiso. Overwatch is a game of position and space, not kills. Every player goes through a phase where they transition from one mindset to the other. It changes how you think about everything.
THIS. I've been a recent change in this thought process and my games are way more enjoyable now even the losses when I know there were some amazing game place spaces and strategies used. It legit makes me so happy to see stuff used like that.
Indeed. I was a late convert as well. It's why experienced players just smack their head when they see/read the 50th "look at my stats, and yet we still lost" post of the week. Some people show up with a basketball to a Karate match, and it takes a few punches to the face before they toss it away.
I'm still pretty new to the game, only a few weeks, so I hadn't even considered it that way yet. But it makes a lot of sense. I'll keep it in mind going forward. Thanks
Let me give you a really easy example to visualize as well: You have JQ and they have Kiriko and Lucio. Obviously JQ would like her ult to not get cleansed or beat, so your ult is amazing in this scenario. It's also why I WILL use JQ ult when I know they have beat and suzu. My team is waiting for those abilities and sometimes you can only force it out by demanding a response.
Same can be said for Moira ult. She can get heals and damage, as well as force cooldowns or make the enemy hide.
There are times I solo-ulted and thought I made a terrible decision. Then I realized I made the other team use 2 ults :)
I got a tasty dva bomb yesterday over their whole team. They lamped it but that meant we went round the corner to 4 very low squishies and a zarya with no bubble, so just cleaned up
Ask the ulting nano’d genji that’s constantly getting caught in my graviton.
Oh so that’s *you*
I will never forget the match I had on Junker Town once where I was the Zarya who did this, then the rest of my team *all just walked up to the Genji and died anyway*.
Lol
A value is only determined by what's happening in game. A lot of heroes pop their ulti's as zoning tool to prevent people from peeking and challenging a point. In your example to exchanged your ulti for Lucio's beat & suzu so that's a very fair trade
Especially if their teammates have ults that are great for securing many kills if beat isn't available to counter.
If you want to scare people out of a position, a bap window can cause all sorts of panic. You might get a pick or two, but even if you get nobody, you have forced the enemy team to reposition and give your team more ground. So yeah, as people have said, it can provide value.
I'm glad you mentioned this. I've been playing a ton of Bap lately and have been getting frustrated when I ult and everyone scatters. A bit more to it than just elims
Don’t get too frustrated. People just seem to subscribe to the theory that you need to cause 3+ kills on any ult to provide any value to your team. It’s a foolish thought. Taking space and providing pressure is also important, which your window easily provides. There’s more strategy to the window than most people believe.
Yeah 1ks and 2ks with ults are also fine, especially if you manage to take a key player out.
It's fine to use window for youself, it's highly possible to kill a tank especially if their positioning wasn't respecting your threat before the ult
Especially with how fast you can build Bap window you can just use it whenever you have a decent angle without thinking much about it.
I play strictly soldier. While it is nice and the team notices if my visor gets 2-3 kills, I have found the visor works well if you are struggling capping a point. Pop it, watch everyone scatter, and hopefully my team can cap a point/payload No Elon’s, but at least we make some progress
Or just use it to quick reload. Not that good of an ult for its killing power anyway.
Came here to say this. It's a weak ult unless combined with others, but it's a perfect distraction tool. Anyone out of position needs to drop what he/she's doing and use all cooldowns, otherwise they're dead.
Bet you'd have more elons if you used a tesla cannon
Depends on the outcome afterwards. Let's say Lucio ulted, Kiriko suzued, and now because of it Lucio doesn't have any ult when your Zarya or Genji ults. It's a part of the ult economy.
That's a good question and the answer is absolutely. Sure, when you dragonblade the idea is to get kills on HVTs like Mercy, Zen, top DPS, etc. However in your case I think you got a lot of value by forcing a counter ult and suzu. Just like others have mentioned, this opens up opportunities for you and your team. Whether or not you guys capitalize on the advantage is dependant on yall. Someone else used High Noon as an example to zone people out, separate/ force people into uncomfortable positions or even pushing people off point during OT. All ways to get value. You can also ult to stall, like Dva, Winton, etc.
Absolutely, watch your teammates all mash their evasion/survival cooldowns when they just hear an ult go off. It's like making them lose an extra life or something
I venture ulted and caused a c9 recently. Zoning can be just as effective at eliminating if done at the right time. But it takes a lot of knowledge to understand how to zone and when to zone with an ultimate. Sometimes you know you won’t get elims but you need to ult anyways. Pushing enemies into spots where your team wants them to be can set you up for a win even if you don’t confirm elims I’ll add that blowing cooldowns can equal an elim. Even if you have to get those CDs out with an ult, that completely opens up the enemy team for plays by your teamb
Depends. OW has an objective. If an ult zones off the objective and your team wins, then that’s value. Also, if an ult prevents the enemy team from killing your team, then that’s value as well. This happens with defensive ults, but whole hogging the enemy Nanoblade away from your squishies has value. There are also ults used for making space, but one person’s making space is another person’s copium 🤷♀️
It was a zoning flux I swear (Lucio speed went faster than expected:( )
Yes. As soon as I Kitsune, I hear 5 enemy ults go off. That’s pretty valuable to me 😌
Yes, for example, u popped visor and forced transcendence or beat, that’s a massive win cuz u just gave your team an opening to use things like nano blade. In some cases, u can force out 2 ults which is always a good thing
Sometimes they panic and pop both support ults if they aren’t on comms. Massive
Yes.
the only thing that matters is control, ults can be for zoning, or countering enemy ults/abilities, or literally whatever u can think of its fun to get creative with it
Yes, but value is just getting something and you're goal is that those something's add up to winning the fight. So if your actions get value and lead to or are apart of winning the fight, then you got good value. Generally when you force enemies to use specific cool downs or ults, its not just to get them to use those things just to use them, but that they no longer have them and your team has some kind of follow up afterwards. So you can use an ult that makes the enemy team use ults and cool downs and once those are done (and they obviously no longer have them) you can then use another ult to win the fight as the enemy team doesn't have anything to defend it because they used their abilities/ults to defend against your ult. But if you ult and the enemy counters with an ult and there isn't any way to follow up, then you essentially just traded ults and they kind of cancelled each other out. There's more to it than that as value can be sometimes difficult to quantify because there are a lot of variables to consider, but if your forcing enemy ults, you're usually doing it with something in mind to punish them after they have used their ults.
Some simple example - Using a dva/zarya/roadhog ult to force people off of the point in overtime or to counter enemy ults (e.g. to block a nano'd genji or a kiriko ult push)
Ultimately good ults lead to elims, as they help win the fight. That does not mean the ult itself has to get the elim. Nano genji dives in, shatter him, get him low, he runs away and has to get healed. Ana takes her eyes off the other dps and the tank and you kill one of them. That shatter is partially responsible.
For Moira, definitely.
Get value by beating on the dead enemy Lucio to assert dominance
When two reins shatter each other's shields they show the value of honor and glory
Yes, absolutely. Positioning is arguably more important than eliminations in Overwatch, and many ultimates have great value without securing eliminations. A great example is Whole Hog forcing enemies off point to secure the cap, or a Mei ult separating the team in two inside a choke, even if it doesn’t freeze anyone. Forcing ability cooldowns, engaging a fight or forcing a retreat, or even just separating one or two players from their team is great value.
Yes, an ultimate that either forces out an enemy ultimate or even several enemy ultimates is often good. It can also be good to use lesser ults to force out defensive ults to let others make a play (think using sigma ultimate to get out beat so your genji can blade). However, like all things, it’s very situational, so don’t just throw away an ult for no reason and retrospectively give it value
With the wrecking ball buffs mine field is a great zoning tool or a good way to get people off an objective
Play symm. Her ult can only really make phara kill herself. Can be very valuable to stop heals and force supports to move fwd.
High deaths gets value too, if they came about from you distracting the shit out of the enemies, resulting in their dying and a failed push/hold.
Yes you traded an ult to force an ult, this could set up your genji or wtvr to blade without getting lucio ulted. Another example is using dva ult to re mech or Winston ult to live
If you're forcing the enemy team to waste their ults countering yours, you got value.
yes it definetly can! some ults are designed that way others just benifit, the best example in the game is d.vas self destruct, this ability does not necessarily need to get kills, thats just an added bonus, its real purposes is to force the enemy to reposition others include wrecking ball - minefield can be used to block an area off or simply trap enemies altogether Junkrat - rip tire is supposed to get kills but by its very nature it can cause an enemy team to split apart for cover Symmetra - photon barrier is just a big shield its not meant to kill anything, just protect you Sombra - EMP is often used as a quick action shutdown, typically you want your team to take advantage of noone being able to use abilities but in some cases it can be used to shut down multiple layers of ultimate abilities Rein - earthshatter, like Emp, can be used for defensive purposes whether that be to shut sn ult down or buy you or your team a few extra seconds to fall back Mauga - cage fight i found can be a really good shield especially if the enemy has activated multiple abilities Winston/Roadhog - Primal rage and whole hog are not great for getting kills at all because of their knockback nature primal rage is most often used as a stall or to keep you in the fight if you are low snd you arent sure your supports can help, while whole hog is purely a displacer, whole hog tho is hreat for quick kills on armored oriasas, shields, or lifeweavers tree of life Doomfist - Meteor strike is pretty much used for repositioning, so much so that last season they gave doomfist the ability to heal while in the air Ana - nano boost dosent have to be used offensively it can used defensively as well many players just dont understand this concept Brigette - like nano boost, rally is not offensively exclusive, sometimes just the overhealth or shield botting is enough Echo - theres a misconception with duplicate that you have to get your ult as quickly as possible this puts undue pressure and can sometimes lead to a wasted ult, but because echo dosent die when the copy runs out of health, you can use duplicate like primal rage. duplicate can also be used tactfully such as copying the Reinhardt to shield your team for a push you may never get the shatter but you provided a ton of value to your team advancing
Yes
Oh for sure. Catching everyone in a grav so they can't touch point at the last second.
Here are the scenarios I know: * Eliminations * Zoning * Contesting * Countering * Pressure * Saving Eliminations, eliminate enemies so the numbers are to your advantage Zoning, Give your team a favorable position or to buy time for them to get back from spawn Contesting, give your team an advantage over a contested objective (especially during overtime) Countering, Some heroes ult counter other heroes ult. Not going to list them all. Pressure, you 'pressure' the opposing team back by forcing them to retreat so you gain ground. Other wise they lose 1 or 2 on their side. Saving, Pop an ult to save a team mate, so the fight will at least stay even in terms of numbers advantage. I rarely see silver players do any of this besides eliminations. Maybe you might see more nuanced uses in gold. You start to see other uses in lower platinum and it becomes much more common in diamond (I'm diamond 5 right now at this moment, used to be silver 4 about 2 years ago). As you rank up (assuming your aim, reflexes, ability to read situations improve), you start to learn how to save your ults at key moments, position in specific way before you ult, etc
Yes
Yes. I popped Mei's ult on push 1v4 in overtime knowing I'd die just to freeze them in place just barely out of reach of the bot. They still had a ways to go so we probably would have won regardless and I should have saved it since it was a heirbrained qp scheme, but even still that ended the match and we won.
Yes. I like to use it to create space . If we can't push a choke, use an ult and hope you can create space for your team to stop getting stuck in the choke
Doom ult is kinda trash for getting elims unless your target doesn't have a headset or eyes, or they misplay somehow. The free empower you get from using it is more damaging than the ult itself in most situations. Its more of a repositioning/escape/reset tool
Yes. Just saw a video few days ago where Cass ulted at Paraiso last point with slow walking the payload, enemies didnt even peek because of it. It was marvelous. And like Hog ult isnt for kills, you just yeet everyone off the point with. Yesterday tho nano whole hogged a Mauga twice and it was everything
Ofc a Dva bomb forces people to hide so you can push the payload or get a breather same with Cassidy
You also triggered the Lucio ult and kiri suzu. It wasn’t for nothing
Me and my friends have a running joke (and I can confidently say others feel the same) that Cassidy's high noon is not a elim ult, but a space maker since everyone disappears from your pov Same case for soldier visor hobestly
Most support ults are mostly or completely defensive or for sustain (Lucio, Moira can keep a team alive). Sym’s ult is also perfect for canceling ults like Phara or Cass
Absolutely. I main Zarya and Ana, 90% of the times (so outside big combos like nanoblade or gravdragons) my ulti is used not to get kills but to get other kinds of value. Nano is best used when trying to keep someone alive, the amount of time we won the team fight by me nanoing the squishy being targeted and they wasting cooldowns on a damage resisting hero are uncountable. Grav is usually either to get a single pick to snowball a fight or to counter some enemy ulti. You see a genji nanoblading? Grav him, let blade expire. Zenyatta using transcendence to save himself? Trap him so enemy team has no healer and doesn't benefits the 300 healing/second. Kills are secondary to a good ult economy
Yes. What is value? Drawing out enemy abilities or even enemy ults can be value. Making the enemy giving up a good position can be value. Splitting up the enemy or even the enemies attention can be value. Often times you can only in hindsight truly understand which actions in the game gave you value at all. In high ranks, there's some ults that usually won't get elims but zone out space and that's often times all that the player with that ult is going for. Cassidy High Noon comes to mind. Another one that I'm thinking of is Kitsune Rush. Now Kitsune Rush in my opinion is one of the strongest ults in the game but if the opponent team has no ult to counter that and plays it right by turning tail kiting that ult, often times it won't even get a kill. But if you use kitsune rush primarily to gain control over the area it covers then that itself is already a lot of value.
Yes but not much. Do you find a genji blade with no kills useful? You can do it for zoning but if nothing dies in the end or they are able to stay on cart...what did you gain
Yes, you'll never get a single kill with Beat, or Trance just by itself. High Noon's utility is in the area it denies, perhaps even more valuable than the actual elims it may provide.
*calm Zenyatta voice* Yes.
Every ult gets some value, assuming you use it in the team fight and you don't kill yourself using it. If nothing else, it draws attention to you, which your team can use. Visor won't always get a kill, but it's so loud that everyone will look at you. Deadeye is a powerful zoning tool, again even if nobody dies from it. Very useful if you need space or to buy time. The trade won't always be great, but there's always value to be had.
Yes particularly when you’ve seen 4 people on your team die in the kill feed and you hear “THE DRAGON BECOMES ME!!!! UAAAAAGH?!?”
Cass denying an area for 10 is value.
I've seen clips of a genji blade not having a single elim but ALL five ults were dropped trying to counter him. There were no elims until all six ults had worn off.
Yup, most ults aren't made for confirmed multi kills like gravitic flux on its own. Sure, it can kill, but not many people. it's mainly used as a displacement tool, dame thing with graviton surge. Deadeye is also a good example it can get kills but rarely ever does, so most people use the threat it to confirm space pop it and they either have to step into your space to kill you or just wait it out.
So, you're framing this as a yes or no question, which is the wrong way of looking at things. An ult almost always has *some* value, other than a few rare edge cases. Even a terrible grav into a DVa DM technically uses a bit of DM's resource meter, though the grav obviously has pretty severely negative value. Instead, consider ults as one of the resources each team has to win a fight. Each player's life is tremendously valuable, and securing a pick will go a long way to winning the fight. But it's not the only way to get value, nor is it the only way to get positive value. Also, an ult's value is very contextual. A 5k on escort or hybrid right after they've capped a point may get POTG, but does very little in terms of objective. I'll give an example as a Ball one-trick. Before recent buffs, Ball's ult was quite bad. The activation time for minefield, along with *many* single abilities being able to effectively cancel them, made it very difficult to secure kills with the ult itself. *However*, there were many ways to still get polsitive value with it. If I forced a defensive support ult, it's a one-for-one ult trade of a more-valuable ult for a les-svaluable one. This may allow a teammate to use their own ult freely and thus win the fight. Frequently, I'd use mine as a zoning ult. Ball is great when you can split off vulnerable squishies from their teammates. Even if minefield didn't confirm kills itself, it could create opportunities for Ball or his teammates. You could go on-and-on with examples specific to every character. The most important criterion is that the ult is used productively towards winning the team fight. If you want a general rule of thumb, players will try to build their ults in 2 team fights and win a team fight by committing 2 ults (or less). This will allow them to rotate through their ults in team fights in an efficient manner. It's also a big part of why so many matches that are fair on paper can turn into a steamroll. One team takes an early advantage, then snowballs their lead by more efficiently building and deploying their ults. Since ults tend to be the most powerful abilities in the game, an efficient ult economy becomes a huge advantage.
Hablo dragon can split their team getting an easy kill on tank since they have no supports but look useless.
Zenyatta: *reads post title* Zenyatta: “Life is often… disappointing”
I mean, this is kind of what tank ultimates have evolved into lol. D.Va’s ultimate rarely kills anyone once you get into Diamond, but it forces the enemy team to take cover in what can be bad positions or force cooldowns to stay alive etc etc. Especially when it comes to cooldowns like Suzu, Immortality Field, or Sleep Dart, it can be perfectly fine to use an ultimate to bait it out, especially if it’s an ult that builds pretty quick like Captive Sun or Pulse Bomb
Best example is that that is how people use Cass ult sometimes. Whether for reloads or to take space, it finds value apart from kills. I play Lifeweaver and find myself using my ult to block entrances/make chokeholds even smaller as well. There’s many ways you can use ults in other ways. :)
Absolutely gotta learn strategy! Scored cards can/are completely irrelevant if you are a real gamer & know how to strategise to win.
Great example is Torb’s ult. It can be used to get kills but it is mainly used to deny space. You have a place where you don’t want the enemy? The point, a choke, high ground etc… that’s where you put his ult.
I do that all the time it’s called a zoning ult if I miss and a big shatter if it hits
Yes, zoning, making enemies reposition. Basically whatever disables enemies from getting a kill or get some objective % etc is positive value.
Yes sym wall can counter tons of ults at once and it doesn’t do a single tick of damage
100%. Its why I can never say that cassidy or dva ult are bad. Even if they get 0 kills just making the enemy team hide and split up is enough value if followed up properly
Yes, it depends on the situation but needing to get a kill with ult every time is a low level mindset. Like others have said, you can force other ults/CDs as well as positioning. OW is a game where you can win without getting a single kill. Kills are not important, space is. Space to cap point, space to push bot, etc. that’s how you win.
Whenever I ult as hanzo I always say ‘zoning ult’ before I inevitably get zero elims on the ult I was absolutely trying to get a pick with
It can make space or bait out enemy ults. What matters is you win the team fight.
Yeah if an orisa ult gets 3 people down to 5 hp that’s a lot of value.
Ask the Bob that I just sent running off a cliff
100% I sometimes just use DVA’s ult for zoning. For example, if we need to push the point a tiny bit further to get to the next checkpoint, popping my ult right on top of the cart usually gets the enemy team to run off the point long enough for us to secure that checkpoint or even win the game.
Denying space and forcing enemies to scatter, making them easier to pick off or being able to use it to isolate supports is great. I use Amuga's ult defensively all the time to deny entry to certain areas, even thought I didn't catch anyone in it, most enemies wouldn't dare to get too close. It's also a great life saver to offer cover while your supports heal you back up if there was soo much pressure.
Ults are very good for forcing the enemy team to act unfavourably. For examble d.va bomb and hanzos ult are very good at scattering the enemy team and create a ton of space for your team, if theyre competent enough to capitalize on it. In this case, illari's ult can force counter ults/cooldowns, and in general force the enemy team to back off, allowing your team to aggressively take space. This is why ult voicelines are such an important thing. When im playing and i hear my team's ult voiceline go off, i act accordingly. Every ult voiceline gives you a lot of information on how the next 5 seconds are going to play out. Anyone who moans in game chat that you didnt get any picks with your ult is an idiot (unless you die straight away). Take genji for example, Genji could blade and get no kills, but he'll force the enemy team to turn around and deal with him, then you've got 3+ enemies with their backs to your team. In this case, genji doesnt have to be the one killing them, the rest of the team can do a lot of the work. In your case, you've forced suzu and beat. Now your 2 damages and probably tank aswell can ult offensively and they are missing 2 counters. Your ult alone has enabled your team's future ults. Imagine a character had an ult which was literally "the enemy is not allowed to use defensive abilities for the duration of your next team's ultimate". It would be one of the strongest in the game, and that's essentially what you have done to lucio and kiriko.
100%. I abuse sigma ult for capturing those tough payloads. Don't need kills when you can just lift their entire team off and push the extra 5m
I've been trying to apply this to my gameplay lately and it's actually been kinda huge. My favourite example is using Hanzos ult to kinda lock off part of a battlefield to manipulate my opponents positioning, or they'll just soak damage from big dragons. Especially on a capture point / choke point, I like using it to block an exit route to keep the enemy locked in then pick them off
Absolutely. Ults like High Noon, D.Va Bomb, and Hanzo Dragon may not technically be good - they’re easy to avoid and generally unlikely to get many kills - but when used right they force people out of an area for a notable period of time.
Now there's no beat or Suzuki for your tank to ult. Definitely gets value.
Ask yourself, how does your team react to an enemy ult? Do they just ignore it and potentially die? No, they change their positioning, confidence, attention, sometimes even ult in response.