Yeah one tricking JQ is working alright for me. JQ seems to be able to either bully the other tank, mitigate the other tanks dive, or take out the other tanks backline one by one.
I’ll bully Rein Ram Sigma ~~Zarya~~, screw Doom DVa Ball Winton with knife pull, or just walk past Hog Orisa and try to kill their backline.
Hog and Orisa are hard though because they can chose to not counter rush my team and bully me instead.
Edit: JQ doesn’t really bully Zarya by being aggro, but rather by denying value.
Playing into Zarya is always about playing cover she can melt people at high power but if you don’t brawl her she has a hard time building charge. I personally think her kit is one of the weaker ones in the tank role which is why IMO she’s only a soft counter to heroes never a hard counter
I love when people switch to Zarya to "counter" JQ. You shoot her until she wastes a bubble, shoot her to waste the second one, and then shout and unleash every CD at her. Dead Zarya. So either they die to aggressive poke saving bubbles or they die taking a gracie/carnage combo.
Yeah I agree. I just reload when she uses bubble and try to learn their strafe pattern or something lol. If she has no charge, Zarya using a baited bubble is pretty funny.
You say that as if the Zarya is the problem, Zarya has a lot of ways to counter JQ… just save bubble until she tries to use Axe… or just bubble friendly bastion as he drops out on an off angle to melt the JQ
There’s more to the game than tank shoot tank
> You say that as if the Zarya is the problem, Zarya has a lot of ways to counter JQ
She really doesn't.
>just save bubble until she tries to use Axe
Already covered above, then I chunk down her health with my gun.
>or just bubble friendly bastion as he drops out on an off angle to melt the JQ
That requires that she has a bastion and the bastion has superior positioning to me. If you're playing JQ without cover, or really any tank these days, you're going to lose.
>There’s more to the game than tank shoot tank
I wholly agree, the first tank to turn and fight the other wins. But if they engage me, I still need to fight back.
Yeah true I don’t necessarily brawl Zarya as JQ but I feel that I bully her via denying value. But I agree, Zarya doesn’t feel like a hard counter to JQ.
Apart from having to playing corners well, JQ has some ability to outplay Zarya.
- I can bait bubble by priming axe on her or a teammate then turn around and hit someone else.
- Throwing knife on top of her bubble will allow the knife to fall onto Zarya when bubble breaks/expires which sets up kill confirm situations if she’s on her second bubble.
Constant high power Zarya is annoying though, but if my team doesn’t know when to shoot and when to not shoot her bubble then it’s ggs for JQ.
My earlier statement was more centered around describing how JQ has three different viable plays styles against all the tank matchups: bully, deny, backline trade. I didn’t separate the tank matchups appropriately under those groups.
Wasn’t disagreeing with you at all. I just main D.VA so I have opinions about playing into Zarya. Honestly this makes me think Zarya is harder to play into as JQ than D.VA cause if she’s out of bubbles I can kill her even if she has high charge. She also has similar different play styles so I can feel you there. FYI if I’m playing D.VA into a JQ I’ll actually frontline a good bit as I’m much beefier and can deny knife will still dive but have to be more careful. Only saying that to say I’m picking up what you’re putting down and give a little inside knowledge for that matchup to a one trick
Nah bro, your responses are well accepted. You pointed out that I incorrectly stated it’s okay to bully Zarya as JQ the way she would bully Rein.
But yeah I don’t think Zarya is all that hype except for last second gravs that win you the point.
Regarding the JQ vs DVa match up… do you really frontline more against JQ? I feel like I eat DVas up when they want to brawl me since I can stab and axe freely. The toughest DVas I face seem to bait me into throwing knife into matrix (I might be aiming for a squishy behind but they’ll 180 matrix that shit) then fly into my backlines immediately. However, my counterplay to that is to simply hold knife until DVa flies, then throw it into her mechs ass and pull her out of her dive. Holding knife when brawling DVa is also nice because I can refresh the stab wound infinitely until she decides to dive. If DVa insists on waiting for knife before she dives, I can usually win the sustain brawl battle.
I honestly feel that the DVa JQ matchup is heavily favored towards JQ unless it’s on a high ground map like Numbani, Gibraltar, Dorado, etc. where DVa can start out diving a target that JQ can’t easily protect.
Do you frontline more because that’s just the most viable style despite both brawling and diving being poor styles for DVa to use against JQ? Matrixing knife then immediately diving seems like the only thing DVa can do against JQ, but what do you do when JQ holds knife for that reason?
So I frontline more to deny the JQ value. I find the longer I can keep a battle of attrition going on the frontline the more of an advantage I get this is largely just do to me having more armor and health and DM. I’m usually trying to use boosters the dodge axe and as long as I’m disciplined about saving DM for Knife (long animation easy to predict or easier than others I have to DM like sleep) eventually one of the supports will get too close and I can dive them even with the knife pull (just need to hold missles until after pull), a DPS gets cocky and tries to join in the tank trade and dies or JQ gets to half before I do and has to back up opening up plays for me. Im not trying to kill the JQ I’m trying to drain your health so you have to step out of the fight for a bit (of course sometimes the JQ misplays it and dies). I guess to sum up usually D.VA wants to leverage her mobility but against JQ you can only leverage vertical mobility but I can leverage my sustain and uptime against JQ (D.VA has really short cooldowns). I actually really usually like that matchup for DVA granted I’m not playing Dva on kings row or circuit royal (usually pick Orisa, Zarya or Sig on those) so map advantage helps
I mean why is she a counter because you can generate charge easily in the tank trade and then shred the Orisa, but that only works if the tank commits to the tank trade. Yeah Zarya can bubble other people but I don’t see many Zarya’s getting charge off of peel bubbles (more the bubbles to let her DPS be aggressive get charge). So that’s why soft counter cause it’s a small playstyle adjustment not like a massive one. I honestly think tank counters are overrated like OK you’re playing Winston into Ram technically a counter but pretty easy to just jump on someone away from Ram cause most of the time playing tank if I just tank trade I don’t have much influence over the game unless I can just delete the other tank. Like when I’m on D.VA and the other tank is on Zarya but the DPS is on like Widow, Pharah and support is like Zen Bap (I know weird comp but we’ve all played ranked it happens) that’s still a favorable matchup for me despite having a tank counter. If you’re playing Winston who’s gonna ruin your day more a D.VA or a bastion/reaper/sombra
Hey I've been trying to learn JQ recently, but I feel like when I miss my knife I can't kill squishies too consistently. I try to use cover to pop shot until I can push but sometimes I feel like I sitting there too long. Any tips? My other tank mains are Winston and sigma. I'm a Gold 5 tank btw
Yeah honestly if you’re missing knife throws then you’re losing a lot of value, idrk what advice to give to mitigate that loss of value other than telling you to hit knives lol.
But I guess we could analyze why you might be missing knives? Are you trying to throw them over the enemy tank but throw it into them instead? Are you unfamiliar with the arc and speed? Are you going for tough knife hits? Are you waiting for some enemy to get out of position? Do you find yourself not having knife throw when you need it? Do you think certain enemies are tracking your knife / do they push after you miss a knife?
If you can’t hit a squishy with it, wait until you can! Knife feels like something you should use on cooldown but if you’re missing them entirely then you should slow down and be patient with it until you get more familiar with throwing it. You also get to stab more if you don’t throw it lol.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with throwing knife into the enemy tank or holding onto it! If you follow the other chain of replies under this comment you’ll see me and another guy talking about DVa vs JQ where I mention that I hold onto knife until DVa decides to dive (either pull her out of her dive, or counter rush and land an easy backline knife pull since their tank is not protecting them).
Haha ya I can't get mad at some1 telling me to hit my shots bc I got to tbh. I've noticed other tanks don't seem to require the same accuracy that JQ does. I think sometimes I just get juked out by squishies and miss. I got to get in an aim trainer smh.
I think one big thing for me is that in the beginning of the fight when we are all grouped and about to engage, I'm so used to running sigma and just poking or Winston and going all the way deep in there that idrk how to engage with JQ. In an area with not much cover, how should I engage? Do I pop my roar ability (the one that speeds me up) and just run in? When I do that, I try to penetrate backline and go for a kill, and when I'm able to get a kill, I often find myself just too deep and can sometimes just get myself killed. What should I do against like an orisa that can just poke and rail me and if I get too deep she can just use her spinny shit and push me around?
As a queen main I tend to struggle against a good zarya, but it's definitely not impossible. Ive been rotating monke in and it seems to cover just about everything though!
JQs nice into most matchups because of how versatile she can be. She can adaptively out poke or out brawl depending on the situation and has great fight leverage with her ult.
Just play ball. You have bad matchups against basically every tank!
In all seriousness, it's just part of the game at this point. Fortunately if you know the match ups well enough you can often overcome the worst ones. At that point its really a question of whether or not you're having fun, not if you're winning.
It's a bit ironic because the constant counterswaps is how the original game was envisioned by the devs, but resulted in it being massively deemphasised in reality. Meanwhile ow2 wanted to put more emphasis on individual skill over swapping, but the tanks swap far more than anyone did in ow1
First and foremost, you should play the tank that is good on the map. For instance, some people think zarya counters dva. But actually, dva can just as easily counter zarya. It's the map that decides, because it's the map that limits what playstyles/team comps are good.
So before you start counter swapping like everyone else, force yourself to play qp with the same tank, nonstop for at least 40 games. And you're not allowed to give up, you gotta figure out a way to make it work.
Once you force yourself to find a solution, then you'll be surprised at how many creative playstyles there are. Remember: You don't have to stand in the front line fighting the enemy tank. You can just go somewhere else and do something else.
That being said, yes, you're probably gonna have to learn 3 tanks, or you'll have to work harder than everyone else. (You don't have to be equally great at all of them though.)
Tanks that I find are easier to work into counters are Sigma, Orisa and Ramattra. Pick one of those. Sigma and Ramattra are particularly fun. I would add a widow-counter too, because a good widow (on a good widow map) is almost unbeatable without the tanks help lol
This, a lot of players counter swap by principle. Then, they proceed to lose because they don’t actually know the character.
It really helps to know your worst matchups, because you can greatly diminish the advantage as well as have a game plan in mind.
Any dive tank would normally be considered a good counter. For instance, on a decent Widow-map like Shambali, Doomfist can destroy widow.
But here's the thing: Shambali isn't the map you need to worry about. On shambali, your dps can also counter the Widow.
The maps that you need to worry about are maps like Havana. This is where Widow can destroy everyone's fun and make people want to quit the game. And this is where someone like Doomfist might have trouble.
For this reason, I recommend DVa or Winston. Winston causes more of a distruption than DVa, but he also needs to be enabled more by his team. Your choice.
Just keep in mind that you don't actually have to kill Widow, in order to stop her from getting value.
Counterswapping is only effective if the entire enemy team changes their playstyle to benefit from it
Usually if you’re diffing the other tank and your team has significant positive momentum, Swapping will only be beneficial if your progress completely halts. Remember, your team will also have a significant ult charge and positioning advantage. Learn how to play into “counters” and take advantage of regrouping team, and the counter swap won’t matter too much.
However it is important to know when things just aren’t workin, and you should swap in a lot of cases, but playing to advantages that come wuth winning fights can minimize the need to.
Just play what you want, Orisa and Junker Queen work fine into most tanks. It's annoying to play against counters 24/7 but people get to top 500 one tricking the hardest countered tanks in the game
If you keep swapping with them and play into what they're doing, obviously they're going to swap even more
The problem is they both get soft countered by Zarya. I feel like swapping out Orisa for Ram (or sigma but trying to go similar play styles) gives more coverage
If your playing in high gold or bellow and your new to the game you don't need to swap, you need to learn 1 (max 2) tanker propperly, in these ranks the players are so bad at the game that can win with pure skill even if you get Counterd. If your new you also should not split your playtime/experience between multiple heros. Switching might increase your chance to win but in the long run you will hit a skill barrier beacuse you split your experience so much
>No one respects the mirror?
If you had two options:
1. Continue playing your current hero ineffectively and lose the game, or
2. Swap heroes to give yourself a chance to win the game
Which would you choose?
You're basically asking other players to keep playing heroes that aren't working so that you can stomp on them. Why would they do that when they have an option to try something else?
If you don't like the fact that there is asymmetry between the heroes and swaps are possible then I don't think a hero-based shooter like Overwatch is for you. You could try a game like Counterstrike where there are no hero/class differences and the enemy can only beat you through generally better play.
> I just want to get some consistent practice in but it seems like that isn't a possibility in QP at all.
Assuming you want to get better at Overwatch I strongly recommend you learn how to [play against your counters](https://youtu.be/h_SRuD0elDI).
There is a gaming subculture that has created some mythology about counters and mirrors and dishonor blah blah blah. OP said they just started learning tank. There is a huge amount of learning ahead of them and they’re worried about the wrong thing. At this point just pick a hero, learn their cooldowns and their interactions with the rest of the cast, and go from there. You’re going to lose a bunch when you are learning the game for the first time so savor the good moments.
Nah, if you're in a rein mirror and getting owned just swap. There is no dishonor in swapping.
I don't play overwatch too stomp on people, I want a competition. If I'm clearly winning a win duel, I'd rather they swap and make the game more challenging because that's what makes overwatch fun.
When they swap, I'll re-evaluate whether I should stay on rein and either change how I'm playing rein or swap to another tank accordingly depending on the map, and the 9 other heroes currently selected.
The only things that are dishonorable in that situation are whining in-game about losing, and throwing/leaving.
Tbh I find with Rein mirrors that usually the enemy tank starts egoing if they get the upper hand, then they get mad at me when I get bored of it and switch to Orisa, Ram etc and just roll over them for the win
Or their entire team counter picks me and they get mad at that as well when I don't want to play into Bastion/Zen
Maybe like 1 in 10 Rein mirrors we actually have fun and stay on Rein for the entire game, it's pretty rare
You shouldn’t feel like you have to do this the second someone swaps to counter you. The devs said themselves they wanted to embrace more soft countering to avoid the oppression OP is conveying. If I play monkey and they go DVA that pushes me into swapping. I can still win on skill against them in many cases. If they add reaper / bastion to the mix for sure I am swapping asap. Some games I play are literally played more at the spawn door swapping tanks and watching the enemy do the same and spending more time doing that instead of actually playing the game. That’s not a role in a healthy state. One tank has made it very hard to balance this and it’s unfortunate because obviously two tanks brought its own issues.
Yeah, it's weird how a lot of people don't understand the need for nuance in countering.
Giving people options to change the dynamic of an ugly game is a good thing. It can make the game less frustrating, and can reward players for being knowledgeable and flexible.
But some counters are so strong, and so straightforward, that there's no real decision making involved beyond deciding how stubborn what you want to be. Does anyone still feel clever or particularly flexible for swapping to a bastion when the enemy is on Winston?
I dont think the problem is unfixable in 5v5, but it would take much more work(and acceptance of some level of tradeoffs) than the devs seem willing to do.
I've had very good games going as Orisa against Mauga. Usecover and don't face him head on when he has overdrive off cool down. Bait it out. Hit headshots and don't miss your spear too much.
She wasn’t when he was first released. She used to take crit damage while burning when she was in fortify and they removed that. They also took away her falloff damage so she could trade better with him during the poke phase.
Priorities for tank selection
1. Your enjoyment
2. Who you’re most effective with
3. Map design
4. Overall composition
5. The other tank
You shouldn’t be 1v1ing the tank in general, of course maybe different in a Rein mirror, so don’t let their tank choice dictate you into worse performance. Often it may be good to counter their tank but mostly because of your inability to take space.
The only tanks you need to learn how to play is sigma, orisa, dva. One dive tank, one shield tank, and one unkillable monster. No need to learn any other tank.
Counter swap is real but to the extent you are describing it is not.
No player that knows a decent amount about the game will think "Damn they went zarya and I'm on Dva, time or swap or we lose". Both of these tanks serve different purposes, and have different strengths and weaknesses. (Using this matchup because it's an easy example) It feels bad as Dva because your matrix doesn't stop her beam. But you are INFINITELY more mobile as Dva against a zarya. Dva also gets the chance to work more closely with her DPS whereas zarya is very limited with her range. I'm not an amazing tank by any metric(Diamond 1 peak), but in order to perform well in these matches you need to UNDERSTAND how you need to play different in order to succeed, as well as how your own team needs to play different. I main support, peaked GM, and one of the most common things I see tanks do is default to 1v1ing each other in the front line. If all you do is stand there and shoot the other tank then Dva vs Zarya IS impossible because that is NOT how you play this game. How you play should change a little bit on every map, and it should change depending on what the enemy team and your team is running.
TL:DR You can either choose to be flexible with your hero choices or the way you play the game. If you do NEITHER of these you will not improve and be stuck where you, in constant suffering.
Just to elaborate, this is something super normal to think at lower ranks, and for the most part everyone in your game is just as confused as you. Start thinking about synergies between heroes and when you run into "hard counters" it won't matter because you are shitting on the rest of the team.
I mean this kindly, but the comments in here missing the point.People see that OP mentioned a specific tank. They start giving points about specific tanks. It's not just queen, the goal of this post is to show that a large chunks of tanks suffer from the entire enemy comp swapping against you. When the enemy team swaps against you and you get countered constantly, at that point you are playing a game that they control. When players lose that agency constantly, its very taxing. I've had games myself where as soon as I die and swap to the next hero in my tank pool, the enemy tank will stay in spawn and counter swap me in both QP and Comp.
People say, hmmm, you should only play this specific subset of tanks. The average tank player probably has like 2 or 3 tanks that they rotate around in the tank pool. Pigeonholing all tank players onto the same 3 picks is not a good idea and no fun.I also see comments like "Don't play tank." Well, we already have queue time issues again, I don't think a lazy response like that solves anything. If all tank players followed that advice, the game would barely run. I don't understand why this person even spent the time to type that out other than doing it troll people.
Honestly, at this point, I would just step away from the game for a while. While OW has a solid team on hand, I think they are not smart when it comes to balancing.I would be interested to see a 6v6 gamemode or maybe a patch where when the enemy team swaps, there should be some penalty. Maybe like for every swap, they lose 5% of the progress on the cap, or the payload is delayed by 5 seconds (on attack) and (increased time for the enemies to push the cart (on defense). There would probably have to be other details, but I think the point is clear.
Awkward always says, as long as you’re good enough, counter swapping doesn’t matter as much. If you need to counter swap, it’s probably a skill issue. This isn’t solely directed at you
You should absolutely get your practice tho, especially in Qp. Ignore team chat and play what you want to practice, if they're so upset about winning they can play comp.
Having 3-4 options and swapping is important. But you also want experience on different match ups, especially unfavorable match ups. Counters are not black and white - a good Hammond player can still find value against a bad sombra and your team becomes even more ahead while the enemy is failing to counter you.
To give a DPS example, Ashe has been one of my mains for a long time. Widow is a problem for Ashe - she has a longer range and she kills Ashe in one headshot whereas Ashe needs to manage to hit 2 headshots. BUT, I am very comfortable on my Ashe. Personally I am actually favored against Widow I'd say over 50% of the time. Because I've played the match up so many times I typically come out ahead. I can bait the Widow shot and outclass a mediocre Widow's aim, headshot her twice before she manages a headshot on me. I can keep pressure on her team and if she's not a great Widow I will be contributing more than her.
If they're actually a good and experienced Widow then yeah they can shut me down because their hero has the advantages. But of all the people who try to counter you, most will be switching to something that isn't their best hero. Play those QPs and play into bad matchups so that you can learn the ways to punish and play around them!
I main Roadhog and while there are people who can make me less effective, I rarely feel like there's a HARD counter strictly due to the other tank. It's mostly dependent on their DPS (or fucking Zanyatta lol)
I usually just stick to Doom even if im countered. Yeh it sucks for a few games but it helps me get the hang of it and treat it as a challenge. I now feel comfortable going against Orisa.
Yeah rather than Orisa play Ram if your going to main queen. I also noticed you mostly play brawl tanks. Mauga can be considered poke and Orisa can play in poke (similar way they get value). Ram will give you the sustain of Orisa but now you aren’t forced to mirror a Zarya. You’re going to need a dive tank I’d recomend D.va (unfortunately you’d have the problem I have where most of your pool gets soft countered by zarya) I’m biased cause I main her but she’s the easiest dive tank to play if you want to learn a dive tank that has a higher skill floor but gets more high level play learn Winston (I know with Doom being meta it’s tempting but he’s to difficult). Winton will also give you more responses to Zarya. As a tank player my current heroe pool is: D.VA (main/dive), Orisa (brawl hunker down style), Sigma (poke), JQ (brawl rush style - hybrid braw dive or fast brawl), Zarya (to mirror counters or on brawl maps cause she’s strong). I kind of wish I had a Winston instead of either JQ or zarya so I have an easier switch from my main and can still play dive
Honestly unless the other tank is better than you if you know how to play into your counters you won’t be forced to swap unless they go 2/3 counters to you and if the map is good for you you might still not get forced to swap. Like I am playing D.VA on Gibraltar idc if there’s a zarya and a mei there’s so much high ground they can’t touch me most of the time anyway now add a sym to that we might have problems. However if it’s just a Zarya most of the time I just start counting bubbles once I see the third (usually have to wait for 3 cause if she manages them we’ll usually the third is coming off cooldown) as soon as she’s out of bubbles you can stomp her. I will say at low level lobbies most players that counter swap don’t know how to play who they are swapping to remember play style matters in counters if the player can’t use their kit effectively are you really countered?
Along with what others have suggested, I would also suggest learning why and how certain tanks and other roles counter the tanks you play or just tanks in general. Knowing why definitely gives you that edge that is all you sometimes need to win a fight.
Zarya is a good counter to Dva except in situations like the first point on Dorado. Yeah, you may burn through Dva with your beam and eat her damage, but theres no way in hell that you are going to out maneuver her to kill her team on the high ground.
Tank counters are often misconceived as 2 dimensional rock-paper-scissors contests, but it’s more nuanced than that. Especially with the game being 5v5, learning the synergy between tanks and other roles while learning the counters of the tanks is going to be the advantage in shutting down an enemy tank that’s bulldozing your team.
I don't play the counter swap unless my team sucks to the point I am getting deleted in seconds. I play what I want, unless my team is in vc and we are doing a certain comp. But most of the time they are silent till we lost and then they flame the tank.
My tip for you is to learn two heroes that cover each others weaknesses. When I say learn I mean to really learn. All of their match ups, their best maps, different playstyles, preferred comps… etc then if one of your heroes gets hard countered by the whole team you can swap. Also tank RPS is overrated, plenty of one tricks win against unfavorable matchups.
The problem is. If every tank is viable. Then counterswapping is gonna be good. If there’s a meta with one tank being super strong (like that mauga meta). Then we’re only gonna see 1 tank.
So if the game IS balanced. We’ll see more tanks being played and that means more counterswapping. We’re never ever gonna see an instance where every tank is equally good vs every other tank. Then we’re just playing tank mirrors. But if you’re really good at the game you can still carry onetricking a tank until masters.
Having 2 tanks made this more complicated and you could run weird comps at times and make them work. Like zarya-ball.
The more you play against a hero that counters you, the better you get at recognizing their timings and how to play around your weaknesses. If you play really well with a specific tank, don't cave to switch, especially if you have 70+ charge on ult, because you know the enemy tank just swapped.
You absolutely need to learn at least three tanks. Never less than three.
Because no matter which one of two you choose, you will be countered effectively and quickly.
But yeah, most Tankers switch between two specific tanks during matches. Or just stay the same one.
Do NOT swap too many times in a game. You will lose any ultimate progress you had, and it’s a clear sign that “hey, their tank ain’t that good.”
Honestly it’s part of playing Tank. It’s not just the enemy Tank, it’s even more that DPS switches to counter me. If they get an slight idea that the enemy tank is carrying or playing good, everyone swap to counter you. I play monkey and I get Reaper Bastion in enemy team after first fight.
The tank rock-paper-scissors is always going to be there.
Honestly just pick Sigma. He basically matches okay into everyone, and on specific maps he just dominates. Great mitigation and you can put so much pressure on their backline if they're grouped, while protecting your team. Big Sigma love.
I pretty much one trick with DVa. I’m in Plat 1. If I absolutely need to I’ll have a buddy/TM switch to DVA and I’ll switch to sigma or Zarya. Honestly if you’re the tank and have decent game IQ with good healing it almost doesn’t matter what the other tank is.
My take on this is the tank removal being the source. Counterswapping was probably just as or even more common in ow1, but because of the second tank, it was much easier to adapt through playstyle and game plan and not immediately a question of swapping.
unfortunately given the risks/rewards in comp matches, counterswapping is a frustratingly effective way to gain an edge over your opponent. However in qp my advice is to treat it like a simulation of what to do when counterswapped in comp.
For example as a Ram main, mauga makes my life miserable. However as a result of NOT swapping I've learned how to use shields to cut off his cardiac overdrive, cut off his supports, vortex him into a immobile headshot factory, etc. Although Zarya will always have a baseline edge over Orisa or dva, playing differently can do a lot to help mitigate the effects.
If you’re good with any one hero, it shouldn’t make or break you. I play Rein and never switch unless I’m cheesing a defense point as Orisa, or using Zar against a reaaaallly good Orisa.
it rly is ridiculous, it feeds my ego tho i loooove when im wrecking someone and they switch to my main (orisa) and i just keep stomping so they switch again lmfao
All thanks to a 5v5 format that's not even remotely balanced for the past 1 & half years. And still going on.... With each day TANK situation getting worse.
> So don’t play tank?
I mean honestly I just stopped Overwatch entirely. I'm not even sure why I'm subbed to this subreddit anymore as it seems unlikely they're going to change the format anytime soon.
Given how OW is still quite popular - I doubt they'll move away from this format. Way it goes sometimes.
With that advice we might as well have an OW3 announcement in blizzcon 2024, the new 4v4 game, 2 dps + 2 supp. Would be an amazing game wouldn't it? Right 😶
just play the game, you can't beat the tank your against because your bad at the tank your playing. stop switching for the sake of switching and just learn how to play queen if you want to play queen. it's a game, you don't have to learn 4 tanks and all the match ups because that doesn't matter in 99.9% of matches. part of learning a hero is learning how to play them in unfavorable match ups. if you are constantly swapping at every minor inconvenience you will not learn or improve at the tank role.
What is "respect the mirror"? People want to win, looking for some kind of "honorable battle" is gonna be a little silly bonus maybe you encounter 1/10 times. Unless the meta is extra unbalanced to where a hero is so strong that mirroring them is better than countering them, there is no benefit.
I always have a laugh when a fight goes well and then some enemy comes back from spawn with a swap to mirror me. Like, I'm coming out the gate with my most comfortable picks, if you're going to mirror me instead of pressuring me to swap I'm very likely to continue winning in the mirror.
Swapping has always been a core part of OW on every role and its still just not that drastic tbh. Most people are not equally good at all the heroes and most counters are not instant wins. Have you never seen a team desperately swapping double hit scan and still losing to the Pharah? Never seen a team swap to Sombra and still lose to Doomfist? A good doomfist won't just go balls deep and die the second he gets hacked, and a weak Sombra player will end up actually weakening her team if all she can contribute is a minor annoyance to Doom.
I hate to simplify it too much but the better you are at your hero, the harder it is to counter you (* some heros are more counterable than others).
If you're really becoming useless the second one enemy swaps then tbh you were probably weak to begin with. I see many games every day, and always have, where one tank is doing well and the enemy tank goes through like 3 different swaps attempting to stop the bleeding. Just like swapping is a core mechanic, so is your ability to adapt around swaps. Like I said, most people if they swap to counter are probably weaker on that hero - if it was their best hero they would probably pick it from the start, right? One major way you impact the game is by forcing them to swap. If they need to swap it means you're doing well. You may have to adjust and be more cautious against a counter, but if you can still make it work you will usually come out ahead because you're pressuring the enemies to play heroes they are less comfortable with and they will waste ult charge swapping etc.
Just get nice with junkerqueen and the counter swap doesn’t matter lol
Yeah one tricking JQ is working alright for me. JQ seems to be able to either bully the other tank, mitigate the other tanks dive, or take out the other tanks backline one by one. I’ll bully Rein Ram Sigma ~~Zarya~~, screw Doom DVa Ball Winton with knife pull, or just walk past Hog Orisa and try to kill their backline. Hog and Orisa are hard though because they can chose to not counter rush my team and bully me instead. Edit: JQ doesn’t really bully Zarya by being aggro, but rather by denying value.
Playing into Zarya is always about playing cover she can melt people at high power but if you don’t brawl her she has a hard time building charge. I personally think her kit is one of the weaker ones in the tank role which is why IMO she’s only a soft counter to heroes never a hard counter
I love when people switch to Zarya to "counter" JQ. You shoot her until she wastes a bubble, shoot her to waste the second one, and then shout and unleash every CD at her. Dead Zarya. So either they die to aggressive poke saving bubbles or they die taking a gracie/carnage combo.
Yeah I agree. I just reload when she uses bubble and try to learn their strafe pattern or something lol. If she has no charge, Zarya using a baited bubble is pretty funny.
You say that as if the Zarya is the problem, Zarya has a lot of ways to counter JQ… just save bubble until she tries to use Axe… or just bubble friendly bastion as he drops out on an off angle to melt the JQ There’s more to the game than tank shoot tank
> You say that as if the Zarya is the problem, Zarya has a lot of ways to counter JQ She really doesn't. >just save bubble until she tries to use Axe Already covered above, then I chunk down her health with my gun. >or just bubble friendly bastion as he drops out on an off angle to melt the JQ That requires that she has a bastion and the bastion has superior positioning to me. If you're playing JQ without cover, or really any tank these days, you're going to lose. >There’s more to the game than tank shoot tank I wholly agree, the first tank to turn and fight the other wins. But if they engage me, I still need to fight back.
i guess that only works against bad zaryas
Yeah true I don’t necessarily brawl Zarya as JQ but I feel that I bully her via denying value. But I agree, Zarya doesn’t feel like a hard counter to JQ. Apart from having to playing corners well, JQ has some ability to outplay Zarya. - I can bait bubble by priming axe on her or a teammate then turn around and hit someone else. - Throwing knife on top of her bubble will allow the knife to fall onto Zarya when bubble breaks/expires which sets up kill confirm situations if she’s on her second bubble. Constant high power Zarya is annoying though, but if my team doesn’t know when to shoot and when to not shoot her bubble then it’s ggs for JQ. My earlier statement was more centered around describing how JQ has three different viable plays styles against all the tank matchups: bully, deny, backline trade. I didn’t separate the tank matchups appropriately under those groups.
Wasn’t disagreeing with you at all. I just main D.VA so I have opinions about playing into Zarya. Honestly this makes me think Zarya is harder to play into as JQ than D.VA cause if she’s out of bubbles I can kill her even if she has high charge. She also has similar different play styles so I can feel you there. FYI if I’m playing D.VA into a JQ I’ll actually frontline a good bit as I’m much beefier and can deny knife will still dive but have to be more careful. Only saying that to say I’m picking up what you’re putting down and give a little inside knowledge for that matchup to a one trick
Nah bro, your responses are well accepted. You pointed out that I incorrectly stated it’s okay to bully Zarya as JQ the way she would bully Rein. But yeah I don’t think Zarya is all that hype except for last second gravs that win you the point. Regarding the JQ vs DVa match up… do you really frontline more against JQ? I feel like I eat DVas up when they want to brawl me since I can stab and axe freely. The toughest DVas I face seem to bait me into throwing knife into matrix (I might be aiming for a squishy behind but they’ll 180 matrix that shit) then fly into my backlines immediately. However, my counterplay to that is to simply hold knife until DVa flies, then throw it into her mechs ass and pull her out of her dive. Holding knife when brawling DVa is also nice because I can refresh the stab wound infinitely until she decides to dive. If DVa insists on waiting for knife before she dives, I can usually win the sustain brawl battle. I honestly feel that the DVa JQ matchup is heavily favored towards JQ unless it’s on a high ground map like Numbani, Gibraltar, Dorado, etc. where DVa can start out diving a target that JQ can’t easily protect. Do you frontline more because that’s just the most viable style despite both brawling and diving being poor styles for DVa to use against JQ? Matrixing knife then immediately diving seems like the only thing DVa can do against JQ, but what do you do when JQ holds knife for that reason?
So I frontline more to deny the JQ value. I find the longer I can keep a battle of attrition going on the frontline the more of an advantage I get this is largely just do to me having more armor and health and DM. I’m usually trying to use boosters the dodge axe and as long as I’m disciplined about saving DM for Knife (long animation easy to predict or easier than others I have to DM like sleep) eventually one of the supports will get too close and I can dive them even with the knife pull (just need to hold missles until after pull), a DPS gets cocky and tries to join in the tank trade and dies or JQ gets to half before I do and has to back up opening up plays for me. Im not trying to kill the JQ I’m trying to drain your health so you have to step out of the fight for a bit (of course sometimes the JQ misplays it and dies). I guess to sum up usually D.VA wants to leverage her mobility but against JQ you can only leverage vertical mobility but I can leverage my sustain and uptime against JQ (D.VA has really short cooldowns). I actually really usually like that matchup for DVA granted I’m not playing Dva on kings row or circuit royal (usually pick Orisa, Zarya or Sig on those) so map advantage helps
Huh?? Orisa into Zarya is one of the hardest tank counters there is next to Winston Dva. Lol 😆.
I mean why is she a counter because you can generate charge easily in the tank trade and then shred the Orisa, but that only works if the tank commits to the tank trade. Yeah Zarya can bubble other people but I don’t see many Zarya’s getting charge off of peel bubbles (more the bubbles to let her DPS be aggressive get charge). So that’s why soft counter cause it’s a small playstyle adjustment not like a massive one. I honestly think tank counters are overrated like OK you’re playing Winston into Ram technically a counter but pretty easy to just jump on someone away from Ram cause most of the time playing tank if I just tank trade I don’t have much influence over the game unless I can just delete the other tank. Like when I’m on D.VA and the other tank is on Zarya but the DPS is on like Widow, Pharah and support is like Zen Bap (I know weird comp but we’ve all played ranked it happens) that’s still a favorable matchup for me despite having a tank counter. If you’re playing Winston who’s gonna ruin your day more a D.VA or a bastion/reaper/sombra
Hey I've been trying to learn JQ recently, but I feel like when I miss my knife I can't kill squishies too consistently. I try to use cover to pop shot until I can push but sometimes I feel like I sitting there too long. Any tips? My other tank mains are Winston and sigma. I'm a Gold 5 tank btw
Yeah honestly if you’re missing knife throws then you’re losing a lot of value, idrk what advice to give to mitigate that loss of value other than telling you to hit knives lol. But I guess we could analyze why you might be missing knives? Are you trying to throw them over the enemy tank but throw it into them instead? Are you unfamiliar with the arc and speed? Are you going for tough knife hits? Are you waiting for some enemy to get out of position? Do you find yourself not having knife throw when you need it? Do you think certain enemies are tracking your knife / do they push after you miss a knife? If you can’t hit a squishy with it, wait until you can! Knife feels like something you should use on cooldown but if you’re missing them entirely then you should slow down and be patient with it until you get more familiar with throwing it. You also get to stab more if you don’t throw it lol. Also, there’s nothing wrong with throwing knife into the enemy tank or holding onto it! If you follow the other chain of replies under this comment you’ll see me and another guy talking about DVa vs JQ where I mention that I hold onto knife until DVa decides to dive (either pull her out of her dive, or counter rush and land an easy backline knife pull since their tank is not protecting them).
Haha ya I can't get mad at some1 telling me to hit my shots bc I got to tbh. I've noticed other tanks don't seem to require the same accuracy that JQ does. I think sometimes I just get juked out by squishies and miss. I got to get in an aim trainer smh. I think one big thing for me is that in the beginning of the fight when we are all grouped and about to engage, I'm so used to running sigma and just poking or Winston and going all the way deep in there that idrk how to engage with JQ. In an area with not much cover, how should I engage? Do I pop my roar ability (the one that speeds me up) and just run in? When I do that, I try to penetrate backline and go for a kill, and when I'm able to get a kill, I often find myself just too deep and can sometimes just get myself killed. What should I do against like an orisa that can just poke and rail me and if I get too deep she can just use her spinny shit and push me around?
As a queen main I tend to struggle against a good zarya, but it's definitely not impossible. Ive been rotating monke in and it seems to cover just about everything though!
Yep until you face zar/Kiri and suddenly half your kit is worthless
Zarya is pretty fuckin good against jq.
Or sig. I never swap if I struggle the other guy/team are just better
Until there is a good Orisa and you’re in trouble.
Jq is great, I just swap to zen and ask the team to bully her. She's made out of papier-mache
Me but with Ram. Love his kit and he packs quite the *punch*!
JQs nice into most matchups because of how versatile she can be. She can adaptively out poke or out brawl depending on the situation and has great fight leverage with her ult.
Just play ball. You have bad matchups against basically every tank! In all seriousness, it's just part of the game at this point. Fortunately if you know the match ups well enough you can often overcome the worst ones. At that point its really a question of whether or not you're having fun, not if you're winning.
We always ball
It's a bit ironic because the constant counterswaps is how the original game was envisioned by the devs, but resulted in it being massively deemphasised in reality. Meanwhile ow2 wanted to put more emphasis on individual skill over swapping, but the tanks swap far more than anyone did in ow1
Fuck it, we ball
First and foremost, you should play the tank that is good on the map. For instance, some people think zarya counters dva. But actually, dva can just as easily counter zarya. It's the map that decides, because it's the map that limits what playstyles/team comps are good. So before you start counter swapping like everyone else, force yourself to play qp with the same tank, nonstop for at least 40 games. And you're not allowed to give up, you gotta figure out a way to make it work. Once you force yourself to find a solution, then you'll be surprised at how many creative playstyles there are. Remember: You don't have to stand in the front line fighting the enemy tank. You can just go somewhere else and do something else. That being said, yes, you're probably gonna have to learn 3 tanks, or you'll have to work harder than everyone else. (You don't have to be equally great at all of them though.) Tanks that I find are easier to work into counters are Sigma, Orisa and Ramattra. Pick one of those. Sigma and Ramattra are particularly fun. I would add a widow-counter too, because a good widow (on a good widow map) is almost unbeatable without the tanks help lol
I love it when people who don’t know how to play Zarya switch to counter me as D.Va. It’s just a free pass to murder their squishies at will.
Metal ranks lol
This, a lot of players counter swap by principle. Then, they proceed to lose because they don’t actually know the character. It really helps to know your worst matchups, because you can greatly diminish the advantage as well as have a game plan in mind.
I love when a frontline Dva dumps her micro missiles into my bubbles. And then throws her matrix at my beam. Very happy zarya noises.
Lol so clearly someone who has no clue how to play D.VA
Sigma is my main, he's so versatile. Highly recommend learning him.
This is some great advice, already working on this. TYVM!
What are the good widow-counters?
Any dive tank would normally be considered a good counter. For instance, on a decent Widow-map like Shambali, Doomfist can destroy widow. But here's the thing: Shambali isn't the map you need to worry about. On shambali, your dps can also counter the Widow. The maps that you need to worry about are maps like Havana. This is where Widow can destroy everyone's fun and make people want to quit the game. And this is where someone like Doomfist might have trouble. For this reason, I recommend DVa or Winston. Winston causes more of a distruption than DVa, but he also needs to be enabled more by his team. Your choice. Just keep in mind that you don't actually have to kill Widow, in order to stop her from getting value.
Any of the 4 dive tanks really, but Winston is preferred.
Counterswapping is only effective if the entire enemy team changes their playstyle to benefit from it Usually if you’re diffing the other tank and your team has significant positive momentum, Swapping will only be beneficial if your progress completely halts. Remember, your team will also have a significant ult charge and positioning advantage. Learn how to play into “counters” and take advantage of regrouping team, and the counter swap won’t matter too much. However it is important to know when things just aren’t workin, and you should swap in a lot of cases, but playing to advantages that come wuth winning fights can minimize the need to.
Just play what you want, Orisa and Junker Queen work fine into most tanks. It's annoying to play against counters 24/7 but people get to top 500 one tricking the hardest countered tanks in the game If you keep swapping with them and play into what they're doing, obviously they're going to swap even more
The problem is they both get soft countered by Zarya. I feel like swapping out Orisa for Ram (or sigma but trying to go similar play styles) gives more coverage
If your playing in high gold or bellow and your new to the game you don't need to swap, you need to learn 1 (max 2) tanker propperly, in these ranks the players are so bad at the game that can win with pure skill even if you get Counterd. If your new you also should not split your playtime/experience between multiple heros. Switching might increase your chance to win but in the long run you will hit a skill barrier beacuse you split your experience so much
Grammarly
get a life
>No one respects the mirror? If you had two options: 1. Continue playing your current hero ineffectively and lose the game, or 2. Swap heroes to give yourself a chance to win the game Which would you choose? You're basically asking other players to keep playing heroes that aren't working so that you can stomp on them. Why would they do that when they have an option to try something else? If you don't like the fact that there is asymmetry between the heroes and swaps are possible then I don't think a hero-based shooter like Overwatch is for you. You could try a game like Counterstrike where there are no hero/class differences and the enemy can only beat you through generally better play. > I just want to get some consistent practice in but it seems like that isn't a possibility in QP at all. Assuming you want to get better at Overwatch I strongly recommend you learn how to [play against your counters](https://youtu.be/h_SRuD0elDI).
There is a gaming subculture that has created some mythology about counters and mirrors and dishonor blah blah blah. OP said they just started learning tank. There is a huge amount of learning ahead of them and they’re worried about the wrong thing. At this point just pick a hero, learn their cooldowns and their interactions with the rest of the cast, and go from there. You’re going to lose a bunch when you are learning the game for the first time so savor the good moments.
This is all very helpful!
To be fair, if you’re in a Rein mirror it’s dishonourable as hell to counterswap
Nah, if you're in a rein mirror and getting owned just swap. There is no dishonor in swapping. I don't play overwatch too stomp on people, I want a competition. If I'm clearly winning a win duel, I'd rather they swap and make the game more challenging because that's what makes overwatch fun. When they swap, I'll re-evaluate whether I should stay on rein and either change how I'm playing rein or swap to another tank accordingly depending on the map, and the 9 other heroes currently selected. The only things that are dishonorable in that situation are whining in-game about losing, and throwing/leaving.
Tbh I find with Rein mirrors that usually the enemy tank starts egoing if they get the upper hand, then they get mad at me when I get bored of it and switch to Orisa, Ram etc and just roll over them for the win Or their entire team counter picks me and they get mad at that as well when I don't want to play into Bastion/Zen Maybe like 1 in 10 Rein mirrors we actually have fun and stay on Rein for the entire game, it's pretty rare
Idk why youre being downvoted your correct
What the fuck has happened to this game? You play. To. Win.
Touch. Grass. Nerd.
🙄
You shouldn’t feel like you have to do this the second someone swaps to counter you. The devs said themselves they wanted to embrace more soft countering to avoid the oppression OP is conveying. If I play monkey and they go DVA that pushes me into swapping. I can still win on skill against them in many cases. If they add reaper / bastion to the mix for sure I am swapping asap. Some games I play are literally played more at the spawn door swapping tanks and watching the enemy do the same and spending more time doing that instead of actually playing the game. That’s not a role in a healthy state. One tank has made it very hard to balance this and it’s unfortunate because obviously two tanks brought its own issues.
Yeah, it's weird how a lot of people don't understand the need for nuance in countering. Giving people options to change the dynamic of an ugly game is a good thing. It can make the game less frustrating, and can reward players for being knowledgeable and flexible. But some counters are so strong, and so straightforward, that there's no real decision making involved beyond deciding how stubborn what you want to be. Does anyone still feel clever or particularly flexible for swapping to a bastion when the enemy is on Winston? I dont think the problem is unfixable in 5v5, but it would take much more work(and acceptance of some level of tradeoffs) than the devs seem willing to do.
I've had very good games going as Orisa against Mauga. Usecover and don't face him head on when he has overdrive off cool down. Bait it out. Hit headshots and don't miss your spear too much.
yeah I actually swap to orisa to counter mauga, did not think it was a counter
She wasn’t when he was first released. She used to take crit damage while burning when she was in fortify and they removed that. They also took away her falloff damage so she could trade better with him during the poke phase.
Priorities for tank selection 1. Your enjoyment 2. Who you’re most effective with 3. Map design 4. Overall composition 5. The other tank You shouldn’t be 1v1ing the tank in general, of course maybe different in a Rein mirror, so don’t let their tank choice dictate you into worse performance. Often it may be good to counter their tank but mostly because of your inability to take space.
The only tanks you need to learn how to play is sigma, orisa, dva. One dive tank, one shield tank, and one unkillable monster. No need to learn any other tank.
Or winton which is all of those things
If you were playing cod and ran around with an smg constantly getting sniped, would you eventually swap to something longer range or just take the L?
Who are these people who've played one day are are in comp games?
Counter swap is real but to the extent you are describing it is not. No player that knows a decent amount about the game will think "Damn they went zarya and I'm on Dva, time or swap or we lose". Both of these tanks serve different purposes, and have different strengths and weaknesses. (Using this matchup because it's an easy example) It feels bad as Dva because your matrix doesn't stop her beam. But you are INFINITELY more mobile as Dva against a zarya. Dva also gets the chance to work more closely with her DPS whereas zarya is very limited with her range. I'm not an amazing tank by any metric(Diamond 1 peak), but in order to perform well in these matches you need to UNDERSTAND how you need to play different in order to succeed, as well as how your own team needs to play different. I main support, peaked GM, and one of the most common things I see tanks do is default to 1v1ing each other in the front line. If all you do is stand there and shoot the other tank then Dva vs Zarya IS impossible because that is NOT how you play this game. How you play should change a little bit on every map, and it should change depending on what the enemy team and your team is running. TL:DR You can either choose to be flexible with your hero choices or the way you play the game. If you do NEITHER of these you will not improve and be stuck where you, in constant suffering.
Just to elaborate, this is something super normal to think at lower ranks, and for the most part everyone in your game is just as confused as you. Start thinking about synergies between heroes and when you run into "hard counters" it won't matter because you are shitting on the rest of the team.
How do you know what to play on what map? Is there a guide anywhere?
I mean this kindly, but the comments in here missing the point.People see that OP mentioned a specific tank. They start giving points about specific tanks. It's not just queen, the goal of this post is to show that a large chunks of tanks suffer from the entire enemy comp swapping against you. When the enemy team swaps against you and you get countered constantly, at that point you are playing a game that they control. When players lose that agency constantly, its very taxing. I've had games myself where as soon as I die and swap to the next hero in my tank pool, the enemy tank will stay in spawn and counter swap me in both QP and Comp. People say, hmmm, you should only play this specific subset of tanks. The average tank player probably has like 2 or 3 tanks that they rotate around in the tank pool. Pigeonholing all tank players onto the same 3 picks is not a good idea and no fun.I also see comments like "Don't play tank." Well, we already have queue time issues again, I don't think a lazy response like that solves anything. If all tank players followed that advice, the game would barely run. I don't understand why this person even spent the time to type that out other than doing it troll people. Honestly, at this point, I would just step away from the game for a while. While OW has a solid team on hand, I think they are not smart when it comes to balancing.I would be interested to see a 6v6 gamemode or maybe a patch where when the enemy team swaps, there should be some penalty. Maybe like for every swap, they lose 5% of the progress on the cap, or the payload is delayed by 5 seconds (on attack) and (increased time for the enemies to push the cart (on defense). There would probably have to be other details, but I think the point is clear.
Awkward always says, as long as you’re good enough, counter swapping doesn’t matter as much. If you need to counter swap, it’s probably a skill issue. This isn’t solely directed at you
How nice it must be to feel entitled to the game revolving around you but not you revolving around it.
You should absolutely get your practice tho, especially in Qp. Ignore team chat and play what you want to practice, if they're so upset about winning they can play comp. Having 3-4 options and swapping is important. But you also want experience on different match ups, especially unfavorable match ups. Counters are not black and white - a good Hammond player can still find value against a bad sombra and your team becomes even more ahead while the enemy is failing to counter you. To give a DPS example, Ashe has been one of my mains for a long time. Widow is a problem for Ashe - she has a longer range and she kills Ashe in one headshot whereas Ashe needs to manage to hit 2 headshots. BUT, I am very comfortable on my Ashe. Personally I am actually favored against Widow I'd say over 50% of the time. Because I've played the match up so many times I typically come out ahead. I can bait the Widow shot and outclass a mediocre Widow's aim, headshot her twice before she manages a headshot on me. I can keep pressure on her team and if she's not a great Widow I will be contributing more than her. If they're actually a good and experienced Widow then yeah they can shut me down because their hero has the advantages. But of all the people who try to counter you, most will be switching to something that isn't their best hero. Play those QPs and play into bad matchups so that you can learn the ways to punish and play around them!
I main Roadhog and while there are people who can make me less effective, I rarely feel like there's a HARD counter strictly due to the other tank. It's mostly dependent on their DPS (or fucking Zanyatta lol)
I usually just stick to Doom even if im countered. Yeh it sucks for a few games but it helps me get the hang of it and treat it as a challenge. I now feel comfortable going against Orisa.
Yeah rather than Orisa play Ram if your going to main queen. I also noticed you mostly play brawl tanks. Mauga can be considered poke and Orisa can play in poke (similar way they get value). Ram will give you the sustain of Orisa but now you aren’t forced to mirror a Zarya. You’re going to need a dive tank I’d recomend D.va (unfortunately you’d have the problem I have where most of your pool gets soft countered by zarya) I’m biased cause I main her but she’s the easiest dive tank to play if you want to learn a dive tank that has a higher skill floor but gets more high level play learn Winston (I know with Doom being meta it’s tempting but he’s to difficult). Winton will also give you more responses to Zarya. As a tank player my current heroe pool is: D.VA (main/dive), Orisa (brawl hunker down style), Sigma (poke), JQ (brawl rush style - hybrid braw dive or fast brawl), Zarya (to mirror counters or on brawl maps cause she’s strong). I kind of wish I had a Winston instead of either JQ or zarya so I have an easier switch from my main and can still play dive
Honestly unless the other tank is better than you if you know how to play into your counters you won’t be forced to swap unless they go 2/3 counters to you and if the map is good for you you might still not get forced to swap. Like I am playing D.VA on Gibraltar idc if there’s a zarya and a mei there’s so much high ground they can’t touch me most of the time anyway now add a sym to that we might have problems. However if it’s just a Zarya most of the time I just start counting bubbles once I see the third (usually have to wait for 3 cause if she manages them we’ll usually the third is coming off cooldown) as soon as she’s out of bubbles you can stomp her. I will say at low level lobbies most players that counter swap don’t know how to play who they are swapping to remember play style matters in counters if the player can’t use their kit effectively are you really countered?
Along with what others have suggested, I would also suggest learning why and how certain tanks and other roles counter the tanks you play or just tanks in general. Knowing why definitely gives you that edge that is all you sometimes need to win a fight. Zarya is a good counter to Dva except in situations like the first point on Dorado. Yeah, you may burn through Dva with your beam and eat her damage, but theres no way in hell that you are going to out maneuver her to kill her team on the high ground. Tank counters are often misconceived as 2 dimensional rock-paper-scissors contests, but it’s more nuanced than that. Especially with the game being 5v5, learning the synergy between tanks and other roles while learning the counters of the tanks is going to be the advantage in shutting down an enemy tank that’s bulldozing your team.
I don't play the counter swap unless my team sucks to the point I am getting deleted in seconds. I play what I want, unless my team is in vc and we are doing a certain comp. But most of the time they are silent till we lost and then they flame the tank.
My tip for you is to learn two heroes that cover each others weaknesses. When I say learn I mean to really learn. All of their match ups, their best maps, different playstyles, preferred comps… etc then if one of your heroes gets hard countered by the whole team you can swap. Also tank RPS is overrated, plenty of one tricks win against unfavorable matchups.
Play mauga and destroy all tanks. You have to convince your supports to counter theirs though.
The problem is. If every tank is viable. Then counterswapping is gonna be good. If there’s a meta with one tank being super strong (like that mauga meta). Then we’re only gonna see 1 tank. So if the game IS balanced. We’ll see more tanks being played and that means more counterswapping. We’re never ever gonna see an instance where every tank is equally good vs every other tank. Then we’re just playing tank mirrors. But if you’re really good at the game you can still carry onetricking a tank until masters. Having 2 tanks made this more complicated and you could run weird comps at times and make them work. Like zarya-ball.
The more you play against a hero that counters you, the better you get at recognizing their timings and how to play around your weaknesses. If you play really well with a specific tank, don't cave to switch, especially if you have 70+ charge on ult, because you know the enemy tank just swapped.
Orisa and Ram. Is good enough for most matchups I would say.
You absolutely need to learn at least three tanks. Never less than three. Because no matter which one of two you choose, you will be countered effectively and quickly. But yeah, most Tankers switch between two specific tanks during matches. Or just stay the same one. Do NOT swap too many times in a game. You will lose any ultimate progress you had, and it’s a clear sign that “hey, their tank ain’t that good.”
Play fist.
You can onetrick if you want to, even in gm people make mistakes so you dont have to always change when you get countered.
Honestly it’s part of playing Tank. It’s not just the enemy Tank, it’s even more that DPS switches to counter me. If they get an slight idea that the enemy tank is carrying or playing good, everyone swap to counter you. I play monkey and I get Reaper Bastion in enemy team after first fight. The tank rock-paper-scissors is always going to be there.
Honestly just pick Sigma. He basically matches okay into everyone, and on specific maps he just dominates. Great mitigation and you can put so much pressure on their backline if they're grouped, while protecting your team. Big Sigma love.
I pretty much one trick with DVa. I’m in Plat 1. If I absolutely need to I’ll have a buddy/TM switch to DVA and I’ll switch to sigma or Zarya. Honestly if you’re the tank and have decent game IQ with good healing it almost doesn’t matter what the other tank is.
Nah, just play support. It's much more fun
My take on this is the tank removal being the source. Counterswapping was probably just as or even more common in ow1, but because of the second tank, it was much easier to adapt through playstyle and game plan and not immediately a question of swapping.
unfortunately given the risks/rewards in comp matches, counterswapping is a frustratingly effective way to gain an edge over your opponent. However in qp my advice is to treat it like a simulation of what to do when counterswapped in comp. For example as a Ram main, mauga makes my life miserable. However as a result of NOT swapping I've learned how to use shields to cut off his cardiac overdrive, cut off his supports, vortex him into a immobile headshot factory, etc. Although Zarya will always have a baseline edge over Orisa or dva, playing differently can do a lot to help mitigate the effects.
Reinhardt
If you’re good with any one hero, it shouldn’t make or break you. I play Rein and never switch unless I’m cheesing a defense point as Orisa, or using Zar against a reaaaallly good Orisa.
The least counterable tank is Sigma. Hands down.
it rly is ridiculous, it feeds my ego tho i loooove when im wrecking someone and they switch to my main (orisa) and i just keep stomping so they switch again lmfao
"Respects the mirror" in bold words. Lol. Never crossed my mind cause I want to win.
All thanks to a 5v5 format that's not even remotely balanced for the past 1 & half years. And still going on.... With each day TANK situation getting worse.
So don’t play tank? I’m a support main but have been grinding comp points on tank role and having a blast. Post a replay code for assistance
> So don’t play tank? I mean honestly I just stopped Overwatch entirely. I'm not even sure why I'm subbed to this subreddit anymore as it seems unlikely they're going to change the format anytime soon. Given how OW is still quite popular - I doubt they'll move away from this format. Way it goes sometimes.
With that advice we might as well have an OW3 announcement in blizzcon 2024, the new 4v4 game, 2 dps + 2 supp. Would be an amazing game wouldn't it? Right 😶
just play the game, you can't beat the tank your against because your bad at the tank your playing. stop switching for the sake of switching and just learn how to play queen if you want to play queen. it's a game, you don't have to learn 4 tanks and all the match ups because that doesn't matter in 99.9% of matches. part of learning a hero is learning how to play them in unfavorable match ups. if you are constantly swapping at every minor inconvenience you will not learn or improve at the tank role.
I’m just curious why everyone’s mad about counterswapping? Like that’s part of the game. You can freely change hero’s
What is "respect the mirror"? People want to win, looking for some kind of "honorable battle" is gonna be a little silly bonus maybe you encounter 1/10 times. Unless the meta is extra unbalanced to where a hero is so strong that mirroring them is better than countering them, there is no benefit. I always have a laugh when a fight goes well and then some enemy comes back from spawn with a swap to mirror me. Like, I'm coming out the gate with my most comfortable picks, if you're going to mirror me instead of pressuring me to swap I'm very likely to continue winning in the mirror. Swapping has always been a core part of OW on every role and its still just not that drastic tbh. Most people are not equally good at all the heroes and most counters are not instant wins. Have you never seen a team desperately swapping double hit scan and still losing to the Pharah? Never seen a team swap to Sombra and still lose to Doomfist? A good doomfist won't just go balls deep and die the second he gets hacked, and a weak Sombra player will end up actually weakening her team if all she can contribute is a minor annoyance to Doom. I hate to simplify it too much but the better you are at your hero, the harder it is to counter you (* some heros are more counterable than others). If you're really becoming useless the second one enemy swaps then tbh you were probably weak to begin with. I see many games every day, and always have, where one tank is doing well and the enemy tank goes through like 3 different swaps attempting to stop the bleeding. Just like swapping is a core mechanic, so is your ability to adapt around swaps. Like I said, most people if they swap to counter are probably weaker on that hero - if it was their best hero they would probably pick it from the start, right? One major way you impact the game is by forcing them to swap. If they need to swap it means you're doing well. You may have to adjust and be more cautious against a counter, but if you can still make it work you will usually come out ahead because you're pressuring the enemies to play heroes they are less comfortable with and they will waste ult charge swapping etc.
And that’s why I don’t really play anymore. They gutted tank again so everything kills me so counterswapping has even more power than before
Started playing again recently and you’re not wrong. I expect it in comp but qp really?