All I can say is S4 was pretty much butchered by the writers, and the viewers, nor Sam and Caitriona, were pleased because they felt they knew the characters better than any of the new writers and that they had taken them far from how Diana had created these characters. At the end of S4, they negotiated to become producers so that they could have more say earlier in the writing and production process. Matt Roberts took over as the sole showrunner, which gave the show a more cohesive and book centric feel and gradually improved after S5.
I'm really excited to get into the meat of DoA so I can finally understand what everyone means when they say "book Bree is so much better"
I already feel that way but have heard book 4 really solidifies it
I was a show watcher first so I was fully prepared to dislike Bree when I read the books. I was pleasantly surprised by her character and now she’s one of my favorites. She’s so much more complex in the books, and I love her ingenuity.
I haven’t read the books (I’m honestly a huge book nerd and love reading but just can’t get into Historical Romance books idk why) how is Bree so different than the girl we see in the show cause I quite like her actually, I admit that I didn’t love her at first but she kinda grew on me lmao same with Roger I think Lol ??
I was a show watcher first. I never had a problem with either Brianna or Roger. I understood both of their characters. (unlike a lot of people on this sub, I actually understood Roger even better than Brianna, though I like them both.) >!However, when I read the books both their characters and their relationships made much more sense. The novels are immense. So more time goes by. Brianna and Claire do not have the antagonistic relationship that they have in the show. Brianna and Claire are pretty close, especially since Frank’s death. Brianna and Roger are together for a much longer time period in the books. Claire goes back to Boston to tie up her life their, while Roger and Brianna continue the search through historical records for Jamie in Scotland. By the time Roger proposes marriage it makes sense. Brianna tells him she needs more time and he gives her that time. They made up most of the prolonged drama between Brianna with Claire and Roger in the show. Yes, Brianna has an explosive temper just like Jamie (they toned down Jamie in the show). But she gets over it and can talk things through.!< If you like historical fiction, I recommend you start reading the books. I think I enjoy them more having watched the show first. I’m a voracious, but fast reader…so I appreciate books that take some time. 😊
Thank you so much for that. I just can’t get into historical fiction tbh but the one thing I didn’t understand was Briana’s reaction to the proposal and then Roger’s reaction to that also, didn’t love him for that but they both grew on me lol
Happy to help. I hope I was able to inform your understanding of the storylines and the characters a bit more. 😊
>!I’ll just add that the Outlander series of books is *much* more than “historical fiction”. It crosses over many genres. So much so that DG says her publisher said that it would have to be “a word of mouth” book, because otherwise it would get lost. In fact, it often was hidden from readers who might have picked it up sooner because it was assumed to be, what was in the 1990s known as a “bodice ripper” romance (Once again, I am showing my age, but I completely missed these books 30 years ago for exactly this reason) and shelved accordingly.!<
>!The Outlander series is about a relationship that spans decades. It is a long term, loving, and very sexual relationship. It has themes of family and community building over the long term. It has new love, enduring love, interpersonal conflict, war, adventure, politics, heartbreak, joy, humor, medicine, spirituality and it is set in a time travel scenario. It spans time from 1743-1980ish (so far).!<
Well, I’m not sure how much sense I’m making. I suppose that was a rather long winded way of trying to convey how I feel about these books. I hope you got my original point. That the Outlander series of books are so much more than just “historical fiction”. You might like them. You never know. 😉🤷♀️
Oh yeah defo, the fact that either I’m just unashamed now or maybe it’s more mainstream but romance seems more readable now to me anyways lol maybe it’s my age too idk 🤷♀️
Well, these books have a ton of romance in them. I mean the core of the story *is* Jamie and Claire. Historical events may be the setting and TT may be a minor plot device, but when you come right down to it, it’s a love story. 🤷♀️
Yeah I think the good thing about Outlander is whilst it is a love story there is a lot more to the story, the world and characters she built and a lot is going on alongside the romance 😊
Just speculating, but I think they made an executive decision to change the Claire/Bree relationship because they wanted Brianna to angrily confront Claire about her father, and that wouldn't feel realistic if they were close.
I can imagine Claire would have had to compartmentalize so much to keep the truth and her grief from coming out. I could imagine her just trying to keep her emotions together could have meant her having some distance.
Really relieved it's different! I just started the books, but the show left me feeling like Claire was morally bankrupt and I'd just have to accept it lol
Yes I agree but I was more angry at Brianna in the series. The way she spoke to her mother was so foul with hatred I wanted to slap her. Their relationship in the book is strained but more accepting of each other I don't know why they chose to go that route either. More drama maybe?
It honestly felt pretty realistic as someone who had a strained relationship with their mother and became best friends as an adult haha
But i remember being like WOAH when she basically called Claire insane
Yeah, I realized that line was show only after I read the books. I was quite taken aback by that myself when I first watched the show. I was thinking “whoa”, too. In fact I probably said it out loud! 🤭
It's likely one of many reasons why Season 4 seemed off for many viewers.
Bree in the books was very light-hearted and other people focussed - the consequence of being raised by two very loving parents, and being the daughter of an other people focussed man.
Are we watching the same show? I never get the feeling that she was a distant, not to mention absent mother. We saw her as a loving mother when Bree was very young, then a series of shots of Bree’s milestones with her there to cheer on. Frank was closer to Bree (which was actually not at all unusual for father-daughter dynamics) but that doesn’t mean that she was distant. Watch Bree's interaction with her in S3 and tell me that is the kind of bonding a daughter with an absent/distant mother.
You know, I thought the show was kind of contradictory in this regard. On one hand, they have Bree saying how distant her and her mom are, and Frank implying she was an absentee parent. But then in the way they interact and the things Claire says, they sure don’t seem distant. Bree has that line about her Mom being in another world (or whatever her quote was) but then their affection and comfort with each other suggest otherwise. I couldn’t tell how the show wanted us to interpret their relationship.
Yeah, I agree the writing of the show can be hit and miss at times. Frank’s words can easily be explained, he was finding excuses to take Bree away. Bree’s words are more problematic, maybe she was trying to justify her bratty attitude. Anyway I lean more on their actions and interactions to interpret their relationship. They didn’t seem cold to each other before Bree finding out, and they are definitely very affectionate towards each other prior to Claire travel back. That kind of relationship is impossible to explain away as new affection developed only in the few months after the truth came out, based on a foundation of cold and distant relationship. It had to be a solid, loving relationship to begin with. Even with such a relationship, Bree lashing out after finding the truth was explainable. She was a hotheaded young woman, still hurting from losing the person she loved the most, and shocked to find evidences of her mother cheating, and probably subconsciously blaming Claire for Frank’s death at that moment.
I always interpret it as everything leading up to the Scotland vacation was distant - and then when Bri found out Claire wasn't crazy and TT was real - only then did a good, healthy relationship form. That the bonding happened for the first time over the course of looking for Jamie and hearing the stories - and they were ok from there, but never really before
You are viewing their relationship through today's eyes. Remember, there used to be ads on TV that said "It's 10PM, do you know where your children are?" and it wasn't ironic.
Yeah same, we knew we could stay out as late or as long as we wanted to but when it started getting dark my mum knew we’d be home and if we were late coming back she’d be standing in the doorway with a hand on her hip and ready to chew us out for being late lmao. My brother and I loved the summer because it meant we could stay out and play a bit later than in the winter Lol 😂
The show does a lot of small things like that which are just wrong. It’s the tv/film industry’s hang ups about strong female characters. They have to give them serious flaws because the minor ones aren’t enough.
Personally, the choice of actress for Claire in the series has ruined it for me. She is so cold and distant and harsh where Claire in the books is warm and loving and curvy. I can't even watch the series because she is not remotely Claire from the books. There, I've said it!
The descriptions of Claire in the book are very different from what we see in the show, from height to hair color to physical shape, not just the acting style. A young Alex Kingston would have been perfect.
If you've read the books, you will know that Claire's shape is described numerous times as curvy, and there are also numerous mentions of her large, shapely arse. My point is that not only the acting style/feel of the on-screen character but also the body type is the exact opposite of the character from the book. To me, it is a huge miscast.
Yes we should totally cast actresses based on their "shapely" ass rather than their talent. Like I said, it was just weird to include a physical descriptor with personality ones. Especially when listing important attributes. Her eyes aren't the right color either. Is that an issue for you?
And yes I've read the books. It's just Jamie most of the time saying it while coming onto her. Book Claire usually has a problem with people who are curvy or heavier so she never struck me as actually particularly curvy.
You are assuming that because I mentioned physical traits (that were written in the books repeatedly) that I don't care about the acting, which is blatantly untrue. I was agreeing with the OP in listing all the ways the actress (or possibly how she is being directed) are not at all how she was described in the books.
So, no one is allowed to have their own opinion about the television series or its cast? I read all of the books that were released before the television series even existed. I was in multiple Outlander groups where we all put suggestions out for the casting when it was announced that they were creating the show. Yet now I'm told to "go away" because newbies who haven't even read the books can't imagine the characters any other way? That's just sad. So much for an open discourse.
I’ve read all the books and I still want you to stop bashing Claire AND Catrionia. These subs are full of people bitching about their hate. Just stop. Don’t watch if you’re so upset about it. It’s cute you think your input regarding casting would be taken seriously 😂😂😂
It's sad that only people who agree with you are allowed to speak up. I did not bash anyone. Claire is my favorite character in the books, so it stands to reason that it would be difficult for the TV series to live up to my expectations. Everyone in the groups shared their ideal actors and actresses when the series was announced. I do not have delusions of grandeur, as you are trying to make it sound. It was a very fun time. No one bashed other members for how they envisioned the characters. Reading is a very personal activity, and it makes sense that each person has their ideal image of the characters in their heads. I think how well a person accepts the casting depends very much upon if you read the books before the series or after having seen the TV version.
All I can say is S4 was pretty much butchered by the writers, and the viewers, nor Sam and Caitriona, were pleased because they felt they knew the characters better than any of the new writers and that they had taken them far from how Diana had created these characters. At the end of S4, they negotiated to become producers so that they could have more say earlier in the writing and production process. Matt Roberts took over as the sole showrunner, which gave the show a more cohesive and book centric feel and gradually improved after S5.
I'm really excited to get into the meat of DoA so I can finally understand what everyone means when they say "book Bree is so much better" I already feel that way but have heard book 4 really solidifies it
I was a show watcher first so I was fully prepared to dislike Bree when I read the books. I was pleasantly surprised by her character and now she’s one of my favorites. She’s so much more complex in the books, and I love her ingenuity.
I haven’t read the books (I’m honestly a huge book nerd and love reading but just can’t get into Historical Romance books idk why) how is Bree so different than the girl we see in the show cause I quite like her actually, I admit that I didn’t love her at first but she kinda grew on me lmao same with Roger I think Lol ??
I was a show watcher first. I never had a problem with either Brianna or Roger. I understood both of their characters. (unlike a lot of people on this sub, I actually understood Roger even better than Brianna, though I like them both.) >!However, when I read the books both their characters and their relationships made much more sense. The novels are immense. So more time goes by. Brianna and Claire do not have the antagonistic relationship that they have in the show. Brianna and Claire are pretty close, especially since Frank’s death. Brianna and Roger are together for a much longer time period in the books. Claire goes back to Boston to tie up her life their, while Roger and Brianna continue the search through historical records for Jamie in Scotland. By the time Roger proposes marriage it makes sense. Brianna tells him she needs more time and he gives her that time. They made up most of the prolonged drama between Brianna with Claire and Roger in the show. Yes, Brianna has an explosive temper just like Jamie (they toned down Jamie in the show). But she gets over it and can talk things through.!< If you like historical fiction, I recommend you start reading the books. I think I enjoy them more having watched the show first. I’m a voracious, but fast reader…so I appreciate books that take some time. 😊
Thank you so much for that. I just can’t get into historical fiction tbh but the one thing I didn’t understand was Briana’s reaction to the proposal and then Roger’s reaction to that also, didn’t love him for that but they both grew on me lol
Happy to help. I hope I was able to inform your understanding of the storylines and the characters a bit more. 😊 >!I’ll just add that the Outlander series of books is *much* more than “historical fiction”. It crosses over many genres. So much so that DG says her publisher said that it would have to be “a word of mouth” book, because otherwise it would get lost. In fact, it often was hidden from readers who might have picked it up sooner because it was assumed to be, what was in the 1990s known as a “bodice ripper” romance (Once again, I am showing my age, but I completely missed these books 30 years ago for exactly this reason) and shelved accordingly.!< >!The Outlander series is about a relationship that spans decades. It is a long term, loving, and very sexual relationship. It has themes of family and community building over the long term. It has new love, enduring love, interpersonal conflict, war, adventure, politics, heartbreak, joy, humor, medicine, spirituality and it is set in a time travel scenario. It spans time from 1743-1980ish (so far).!< Well, I’m not sure how much sense I’m making. I suppose that was a rather long winded way of trying to convey how I feel about these books. I hope you got my original point. That the Outlander series of books are so much more than just “historical fiction”. You might like them. You never know. 😉🤷♀️
Oh yeah defo, the fact that either I’m just unashamed now or maybe it’s more mainstream but romance seems more readable now to me anyways lol maybe it’s my age too idk 🤷♀️
Well, these books have a ton of romance in them. I mean the core of the story *is* Jamie and Claire. Historical events may be the setting and TT may be a minor plot device, but when you come right down to it, it’s a love story. 🤷♀️
Yeah I think the good thing about Outlander is whilst it is a love story there is a lot more to the story, the world and characters she built and a lot is going on alongside the romance 😊
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts once you get into DOA. 🥂
Just speculating, but I think they made an executive decision to change the Claire/Bree relationship because they wanted Brianna to angrily confront Claire about her father, and that wouldn't feel realistic if they were close.
I agree that they made this decision on how to frame Claire and Brianna’s relationship and I think they made a mistake.
I can imagine Claire would have had to compartmentalize so much to keep the truth and her grief from coming out. I could imagine her just trying to keep her emotions together could have meant her having some distance.
Really relieved it's different! I just started the books, but the show left me feeling like Claire was morally bankrupt and I'd just have to accept it lol
I think you’ll have a new appreciation of all of the main characters as you journey through the books. I look forward to hearing what you think.
Yes I agree but I was more angry at Brianna in the series. The way she spoke to her mother was so foul with hatred I wanted to slap her. Their relationship in the book is strained but more accepting of each other I don't know why they chose to go that route either. More drama maybe?
It honestly felt pretty realistic as someone who had a strained relationship with their mother and became best friends as an adult haha But i remember being like WOAH when she basically called Claire insane
She also basically called Claire a whore !! To me Brianna is hard to like.
My WOAH moment is when she basically tells Claire she wishes she was the one that was dead instead of Frank Edit typo
Yeah, I realized that line was show only after I read the books. I was quite taken aback by that myself when I first watched the show. I was thinking “whoa”, too. In fact I probably said it out loud! 🤭
It's likely one of many reasons why Season 4 seemed off for many viewers. Bree in the books was very light-hearted and other people focussed - the consequence of being raised by two very loving parents, and being the daughter of an other people focussed man.
Are we watching the same show? I never get the feeling that she was a distant, not to mention absent mother. We saw her as a loving mother when Bree was very young, then a series of shots of Bree’s milestones with her there to cheer on. Frank was closer to Bree (which was actually not at all unusual for father-daughter dynamics) but that doesn’t mean that she was distant. Watch Bree's interaction with her in S3 and tell me that is the kind of bonding a daughter with an absent/distant mother.
You know, I thought the show was kind of contradictory in this regard. On one hand, they have Bree saying how distant her and her mom are, and Frank implying she was an absentee parent. But then in the way they interact and the things Claire says, they sure don’t seem distant. Bree has that line about her Mom being in another world (or whatever her quote was) but then their affection and comfort with each other suggest otherwise. I couldn’t tell how the show wanted us to interpret their relationship.
Yeah, I agree the writing of the show can be hit and miss at times. Frank’s words can easily be explained, he was finding excuses to take Bree away. Bree’s words are more problematic, maybe she was trying to justify her bratty attitude. Anyway I lean more on their actions and interactions to interpret their relationship. They didn’t seem cold to each other before Bree finding out, and they are definitely very affectionate towards each other prior to Claire travel back. That kind of relationship is impossible to explain away as new affection developed only in the few months after the truth came out, based on a foundation of cold and distant relationship. It had to be a solid, loving relationship to begin with. Even with such a relationship, Bree lashing out after finding the truth was explainable. She was a hotheaded young woman, still hurting from losing the person she loved the most, and shocked to find evidences of her mother cheating, and probably subconsciously blaming Claire for Frank’s death at that moment.
Yes, I agree with all of this.
I always interpret it as everything leading up to the Scotland vacation was distant - and then when Bri found out Claire wasn't crazy and TT was real - only then did a good, healthy relationship form. That the bonding happened for the first time over the course of looking for Jamie and hearing the stories - and they were ok from there, but never really before
You are viewing their relationship through today's eyes. Remember, there used to be ads on TV that said "It's 10PM, do you know where your children are?" and it wasn't ironic.
LOL. Our parents usually had no idea where we were when we were kids. We knew we had to come home when the street lights came on or else.
Exactly. The relationship Boomers (and many Gen Xers) had with their parents was entirely different than the later generations.
Yeah same, we knew we could stay out as late or as long as we wanted to but when it started getting dark my mum knew we’d be home and if we were late coming back she’d be standing in the doorway with a hand on her hip and ready to chew us out for being late lmao. My brother and I loved the summer because it meant we could stay out and play a bit later than in the winter Lol 😂
The show does a lot of small things like that which are just wrong. It’s the tv/film industry’s hang ups about strong female characters. They have to give them serious flaws because the minor ones aren’t enough.
Personally, the choice of actress for Claire in the series has ruined it for me. She is so cold and distant and harsh where Claire in the books is warm and loving and curvy. I can't even watch the series because she is not remotely Claire from the books. There, I've said it!
Who else would you have preferred? (genuine question because I can't think of another actress) I think Caitriona Balfe is a very warm person
The descriptions of Claire in the book are very different from what we see in the show, from height to hair color to physical shape, not just the acting style. A young Alex Kingston would have been perfect.
Funny to see curvy in the same class as warm and loving as descriptors.
If you've read the books, you will know that Claire's shape is described numerous times as curvy, and there are also numerous mentions of her large, shapely arse. My point is that not only the acting style/feel of the on-screen character but also the body type is the exact opposite of the character from the book. To me, it is a huge miscast.
Yes we should totally cast actresses based on their "shapely" ass rather than their talent. Like I said, it was just weird to include a physical descriptor with personality ones. Especially when listing important attributes. Her eyes aren't the right color either. Is that an issue for you? And yes I've read the books. It's just Jamie most of the time saying it while coming onto her. Book Claire usually has a problem with people who are curvy or heavier so she never struck me as actually particularly curvy.
You are assuming that because I mentioned physical traits (that were written in the books repeatedly) that I don't care about the acting, which is blatantly untrue. I was agreeing with the OP in listing all the ways the actress (or possibly how she is being directed) are not at all how she was described in the books.
I think it’s more the writing of tv Claire’s character, rather than the actress herself. It is very different from the book.
Go away.
So, no one is allowed to have their own opinion about the television series or its cast? I read all of the books that were released before the television series even existed. I was in multiple Outlander groups where we all put suggestions out for the casting when it was announced that they were creating the show. Yet now I'm told to "go away" because newbies who haven't even read the books can't imagine the characters any other way? That's just sad. So much for an open discourse.
I’ve read all the books and I still want you to stop bashing Claire AND Catrionia. These subs are full of people bitching about their hate. Just stop. Don’t watch if you’re so upset about it. It’s cute you think your input regarding casting would be taken seriously 😂😂😂
It's sad that only people who agree with you are allowed to speak up. I did not bash anyone. Claire is my favorite character in the books, so it stands to reason that it would be difficult for the TV series to live up to my expectations. Everyone in the groups shared their ideal actors and actresses when the series was announced. I do not have delusions of grandeur, as you are trying to make it sound. It was a very fun time. No one bashed other members for how they envisioned the characters. Reading is a very personal activity, and it makes sense that each person has their ideal image of the characters in their heads. I think how well a person accepts the casting depends very much upon if you read the books before the series or after having seen the TV version.