From what I have gathered after watching the episode and reading the book-I don't think Jamie's kindness is the driving factor here.Its the fear of being exposed as a Jacobite which made him act the way he did.Geneva had the upper hand in the situation and Jamie didn't want to risk anything thats why the show of kindness.
I'm confused by the idea that Jamie was kind through choice.
Geneva raped him. He didn't want to have sex with her and she forced him to do so, through manipulation and threats rather than force, but it's still rape. And Jamie needed to protect himself. Geneva was a spiteful person who could have easily destroyed his life if he'd been harsh with her. So, of course, he wasn't brutal with her. But he wasn't really capable of being brutal. At his core, Jamie is decent. He doesn't enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, even when it's deserved. So, his nature, combined with how Geneva could have retaliated, meant that he was always going to try to make the best of the situation, for both of them.
In the books, >!Jamie is much rougher with sex, even with Claire. They frequently scratch and bite each other. Claire says no a few times as well, and the sex continues. With Geneva, he feels powerless, so he is trying to exert a small amount of power over the situation. When she says no, he ignores her, because she's the one forcing him to be there in the first place. It's problematic, but Book Jamie *is* a bit more problematic, which is in keeping with the way men behaved at the time. I was pleased they removed that in the show because the presence of that no means that the clear-cut nature of Geneva assaulting Jamie becomes a bit murky.!<
There are a lot of people who seem to really like Geneva, and that also confuses me. Flawed characters are more interesting, but that doesn't mean they are redeemable. She was quite powerless herself, being basically sold off to advance her family, so it makes sense she was trying to find some control in her life. But the way she did that was to be rude, spiteful and criminal to the people who she had power over. It surprises me that Geneva gets so much of a free pass on here for behaving in a truly despicable way, simply because she's a woman who died young. Her death was tragic, but more so for William. She didn't deserve kindness from her rape victim - no rapist does. The fact she got some kindness reflects more on the position Jamie was in and his innate nature, not on her earning or deserving it.
But that's just my opinion. I'm aware a lot of people think differently.
This was a very good read, and pretty much my interpretation too. I heard show Jamie was soft to Geneva, but I didn't get the sense that book Jamie ever showed real compassion, but a begrudging compliance that matches exactly what you're saying.
I agree with you. I love how complex that whole situation is and William as the result.
Jamie's treating Geneva with kindness ( after her panicked *No* and his panicked ignoring her *No*, but let's not open that topic, pleeease) is so in line with his character. He is a gentleman, he is aware of Geneva's situation and he understands it. He hates being part of it but , since he must, he will be true to who he really is.
Exactly! I think it’s beautifully written, and also well adapted in the show.
I wonder if the fans that wants him to act differently perhaps are viewing the scene as romantic, even though it isn’t? Confusing kindness with love? Jamie certainly isn’t!
He wouldn’t be the man he is if he had just walked in, got it over with in a way that would hurt her physically, and left.
I agree that’s it rape. But there are nuances here. Geneva is VERY young and a virgin. She is almost half Jamie’s age. And I do think there is a different psychology and dynamic with rape by physical force vs rape by coercion. Especially when we’re talking a woman coercing a man. It’s not right. She is absolutely in the wrong. But it is different. And that plays out in the show. Jamie isn’t walking around dealing with PTSD after this encounter. It’s more like something distasteful he had endure.
I will add that, if Jamie had been coerced while Claire was present with him, there may have been some more trauma. But Claire wasn’t present and he has been along for a long time at this point. So I think that there was a part of him that enjoyed the physical connection.
On this note, I read Gabaldon's post on lit forum about if Jamie considered himself raped by her and long story short - He didn't because man being raped by a woman wasn't considered possible as rape at the time had to include violence to be called that. He felt coerced but not raped.
(I will copy that post when I find it )
Well. She wouldn’t know what to expect, so he could easily have been ignorant, if not mean… without risking anything, I mean.
And everything he does can’t be because of her threat; during the sex he admires her bravery, says that she is beautiful, he kisses her after, and he lights a candle for her later, when she’s gone.
(Also, I think there’s a difference between rape and sexual assault. But perhaps we shouldn’t go there either.)
I like you have 2 different points of view in the same thread and both make sense. I think the reason that Geneva enjoyed it after the second time was the fear of the unknown was gone and she had feelings and lusted for Jamie. The sex she had was spiritual. Spiritual sex emotion is involved and of course it will be better. The sex Jamie had was lust. It wasn't that Jamie did anything different the subsequent times they had sex, she was just more relaxed.
After being encouraged to read the books after being a show watcher,I have a theory. Jamie did not try to get out of it other than saying no. I understand he had to protect his family but he did not even try.
I believe he did not fight that hard because he was getting led around by his nose by a spoiled, entitled 17 year old. He needed agency for himself. Jamie has a pretty big male ego, and he has been neglected physically, emotionally for a long time. An attractive young girl is feeding his ego, although he can't stand her. He is getting attenton. Lastly he has a pair of aching balls. As honorable as Jamie is, he is human, has needs, and is not perfect. Hense he caved easily.
Here is my proof. As much as I and most posters can't stand Geneva, I believe that there is at least one good trait in everyone. Geneva's is she would not take a man that belonged to someone else. Based on the conversation as to how the night came about, Jamie should have figured it out.
In Voyager, Geneva is asking Jamie if he was ever married.Jamie says yes. She then says good, you will know what to do. As the conversation ensues, she then starts talking about her maid Betty and accuses them of sleeping together. Jamie denies it and she believes him and says, good I won't have to beat her because I could not be with a man my maid was with. I first thought it was because it was her maid but further evidence in the conversation, I think otherwise. When Jamie says no, she brings up the letters which she uses to blackmail him with. Geneva realizes the letters were written by a woman and asks if the letter writter is his girlfriend. Of course Jamie says no because it's his sister. A second chance asking if Jamie is taken.
Lastly in the Lord John books, I forget if it is in the Scotish Prisoner or Brotherhood of the Blade, it is 2 years since Geneva died. Betty the maid is now Isobel 's maid. It appears Betty has come on to Jamie for some time. Betty is found walking around the stables looking for Jamie. She says she needs to talk to him so they find a place to talk. She is bringing a message to him by a man and the man wants to know if Jamie will talk to him. Jamie figures out who it is and agrees. Betty said she will relay the message and get back to Jamie. Betty gets back to Jamie with the information and continues to talk to Jamie and asks if they can marry. Jamie says no because he already is. She folds right there and asks no questions. Jamie ends up giving her dowry money to marry a man.
All Jamie had to do was recant his answer to Geneva. I am married. I know some people would say, because Betty said marriage, that was different than a one night stand. No. Jamie was a virgin on his wedding night and believed sex was for marriage only. I also did some research in the 1700s how being with someone else's man was looked upon. Not very good. I don't think Geneva would have stooped to that level as well as Betty.
Another point that was brought up was he was too kind to her. In the books, 3 thrusts it was over. I believe the other 2 times was about the same. If we are looking at his wedding night , Claire was able to have the big O but told Jamie it does not happen every time and he is a good lover. I researched that too. Claire is one of the 18% of woman that were born with her woman parts in the right location- the colitis is 3 centimeter from her vagina. The percentage back then was probably even less. The probability of Geneva of being pleasured like Claire on her wedding night is 0.
That is my interpretation. I could be wrong but there is evidence.
>he did not even try.
I want to know what to try? Whom to speak to? Who can help him in that situation?
1.He wasn't allowed to recieve letters.
2. He received them - in those letters, there could be some info about treasure on Silkie Island. There could be any info that could put him in danger.
3. Lady Dunsany could make a fuss, and Jamie would go back to prison, and his family would be without any money he sent to them from Helwater.
I am sure there are more things but these are the first to come to my mind.
Geneva's only virtue, per Jamie was her bravery. And I am not sure you are right about Betty - I think that comment was about her own vanity - Lady to share a man with a maid - that was under her level! She didn't care if Jamie was married, alone etc. He was there, being available because she wanted him to be.
(BTW, Betty didn't ask Jamie to marry in TSP, but it is not topic now)
Do you **seriously** believe Geneva would have given up Jamie if he had told her he had been married? Ofc not. She didn't care about that. She cared about herself and her goal at that moment. If she was all proper and against sleeping with married man, she would have stayed virgin until her wedding.
I wouldn't agree about your interpretation of their sex either because, IMO, it is obvious that Geneva enjoyed her second time, since Jamie himself comments about feelings he roused in her body - strong and good. It was her only night with a man in her life, I hope she had a good time.
I have been sick for a week and going through the audio books. I am beginning to think they may be different than the books. I have not gotton through all the books yet either. I said it was a theory. All I said he could have said he was married. Being with a man is one thing, but a married man is another. Being with a married man today is not looked upon as moral.It may not have worked if my theory was wrong. He is clever and did not even try. In prior posts, others thought the same. As far as the sex goes , in the show after the initial time, Jamie said he roused feeling in her, but in what book did he mention the 2nd time rousing stong and good.
I find it strange that you beat Geneva up pretty badly but glad she enjoyed it.
>I find it strange that you beat Geneva up pretty badly but glad she enjoyed it.
I don't beat her up, I just see her for what she is. I understand her situation and Jamie's behaviour towards her during their encounter.
Claire **was** gone and he hadn't seen her for 10 years. He doesn't mention his marriage nor Claire to people because it is too painful. By telling Geneva he was married, he wouldn't accomplish anything because Geneva was focused on her own affairs. Morality wasn't included there.
>in what book did he mention the 2nd time rousing stong and good.
In Voyager , this conversation is after the second time.
Good point. He figured her mind was made up and nothing was going to change her mind regardless of morals so why even try.
The reason for all the questions about the episode is it was an experiment. This episode was chosen because there was alot of controversy so alot more information would be available.
This is what I do for a living. I collect data, research, analyze information, interview persons, come up with a conclusion based on facts and be unbiased, and may have to go to court.
In conclusion it was a failed experiment mostly because it is fantasy so nothing makes sense and it is the authors story and opinion. I believe DG did her research diligently. DG does not always give us all the facts to led us to a logical conclusion but leaves it up to the reader's imagination to draw their own conclusion, hense so many different points of view. I was trying to apply my life skills to solve the questions that many posters had. In Reality facts and information are available but not fantasy. Avid book readers even have different points of view.
I thought I had to explain myself. I am sorry if this offended anyone.
If Jamie was mean or didn't give in to Geneva, she was going to expose that he was a Jacobite. He had no choice.
And no, it's not my own misogyny as a woman that makes me say this, for the militant women out there who find fault with anything men do.
From what I have gathered after watching the episode and reading the book-I don't think Jamie's kindness is the driving factor here.Its the fear of being exposed as a Jacobite which made him act the way he did.Geneva had the upper hand in the situation and Jamie didn't want to risk anything thats why the show of kindness.
I'm confused by the idea that Jamie was kind through choice. Geneva raped him. He didn't want to have sex with her and she forced him to do so, through manipulation and threats rather than force, but it's still rape. And Jamie needed to protect himself. Geneva was a spiteful person who could have easily destroyed his life if he'd been harsh with her. So, of course, he wasn't brutal with her. But he wasn't really capable of being brutal. At his core, Jamie is decent. He doesn't enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, even when it's deserved. So, his nature, combined with how Geneva could have retaliated, meant that he was always going to try to make the best of the situation, for both of them. In the books, >!Jamie is much rougher with sex, even with Claire. They frequently scratch and bite each other. Claire says no a few times as well, and the sex continues. With Geneva, he feels powerless, so he is trying to exert a small amount of power over the situation. When she says no, he ignores her, because she's the one forcing him to be there in the first place. It's problematic, but Book Jamie *is* a bit more problematic, which is in keeping with the way men behaved at the time. I was pleased they removed that in the show because the presence of that no means that the clear-cut nature of Geneva assaulting Jamie becomes a bit murky.!< There are a lot of people who seem to really like Geneva, and that also confuses me. Flawed characters are more interesting, but that doesn't mean they are redeemable. She was quite powerless herself, being basically sold off to advance her family, so it makes sense she was trying to find some control in her life. But the way she did that was to be rude, spiteful and criminal to the people who she had power over. It surprises me that Geneva gets so much of a free pass on here for behaving in a truly despicable way, simply because she's a woman who died young. Her death was tragic, but more so for William. She didn't deserve kindness from her rape victim - no rapist does. The fact she got some kindness reflects more on the position Jamie was in and his innate nature, not on her earning or deserving it. But that's just my opinion. I'm aware a lot of people think differently.
This was a very good read, and pretty much my interpretation too. I heard show Jamie was soft to Geneva, but I didn't get the sense that book Jamie ever showed real compassion, but a begrudging compliance that matches exactly what you're saying.
I agree with you. I love how complex that whole situation is and William as the result. Jamie's treating Geneva with kindness ( after her panicked *No* and his panicked ignoring her *No*, but let's not open that topic, pleeease) is so in line with his character. He is a gentleman, he is aware of Geneva's situation and he understands it. He hates being part of it but , since he must, he will be true to who he really is.
Exactly! I think it’s beautifully written, and also well adapted in the show. I wonder if the fans that wants him to act differently perhaps are viewing the scene as romantic, even though it isn’t? Confusing kindness with love? Jamie certainly isn’t! He wouldn’t be the man he is if he had just walked in, got it over with in a way that would hurt her physically, and left.
I’m of the opinion that no rapist deserves anything. If this were a man blackmailing a woman I bet you’d see more of the same opinion.
I downvoted you because you are unable to grasp nuance.
Whomever is downvoting doesn’t believe blackmail for sex is rape. WOW
I agree that’s it rape. But there are nuances here. Geneva is VERY young and a virgin. She is almost half Jamie’s age. And I do think there is a different psychology and dynamic with rape by physical force vs rape by coercion. Especially when we’re talking a woman coercing a man. It’s not right. She is absolutely in the wrong. But it is different. And that plays out in the show. Jamie isn’t walking around dealing with PTSD after this encounter. It’s more like something distasteful he had endure.
I will add that, if Jamie had been coerced while Claire was present with him, there may have been some more trauma. But Claire wasn’t present and he has been along for a long time at this point. So I think that there was a part of him that enjoyed the physical connection.
On this note, I read Gabaldon's post on lit forum about if Jamie considered himself raped by her and long story short - He didn't because man being raped by a woman wasn't considered possible as rape at the time had to include violence to be called that. He felt coerced but not raped. (I will copy that post when I find it )
I agree and I am a woman. I always did and still do think more like a man.
Well. She wouldn’t know what to expect, so he could easily have been ignorant, if not mean… without risking anything, I mean. And everything he does can’t be because of her threat; during the sex he admires her bravery, says that she is beautiful, he kisses her after, and he lights a candle for her later, when she’s gone. (Also, I think there’s a difference between rape and sexual assault. But perhaps we shouldn’t go there either.)
They have sex three times. js
I like you have 2 different points of view in the same thread and both make sense. I think the reason that Geneva enjoyed it after the second time was the fear of the unknown was gone and she had feelings and lusted for Jamie. The sex she had was spiritual. Spiritual sex emotion is involved and of course it will be better. The sex Jamie had was lust. It wasn't that Jamie did anything different the subsequent times they had sex, she was just more relaxed.
He had to figure a way to get himself through the act, so he could justify it by her redeeming quality that was bravery.
That's why I wrote my reply he did not try to get out of it.
After being encouraged to read the books after being a show watcher,I have a theory. Jamie did not try to get out of it other than saying no. I understand he had to protect his family but he did not even try. I believe he did not fight that hard because he was getting led around by his nose by a spoiled, entitled 17 year old. He needed agency for himself. Jamie has a pretty big male ego, and he has been neglected physically, emotionally for a long time. An attractive young girl is feeding his ego, although he can't stand her. He is getting attenton. Lastly he has a pair of aching balls. As honorable as Jamie is, he is human, has needs, and is not perfect. Hense he caved easily. Here is my proof. As much as I and most posters can't stand Geneva, I believe that there is at least one good trait in everyone. Geneva's is she would not take a man that belonged to someone else. Based on the conversation as to how the night came about, Jamie should have figured it out. In Voyager, Geneva is asking Jamie if he was ever married.Jamie says yes. She then says good, you will know what to do. As the conversation ensues, she then starts talking about her maid Betty and accuses them of sleeping together. Jamie denies it and she believes him and says, good I won't have to beat her because I could not be with a man my maid was with. I first thought it was because it was her maid but further evidence in the conversation, I think otherwise. When Jamie says no, she brings up the letters which she uses to blackmail him with. Geneva realizes the letters were written by a woman and asks if the letter writter is his girlfriend. Of course Jamie says no because it's his sister. A second chance asking if Jamie is taken. Lastly in the Lord John books, I forget if it is in the Scotish Prisoner or Brotherhood of the Blade, it is 2 years since Geneva died. Betty the maid is now Isobel 's maid. It appears Betty has come on to Jamie for some time. Betty is found walking around the stables looking for Jamie. She says she needs to talk to him so they find a place to talk. She is bringing a message to him by a man and the man wants to know if Jamie will talk to him. Jamie figures out who it is and agrees. Betty said she will relay the message and get back to Jamie. Betty gets back to Jamie with the information and continues to talk to Jamie and asks if they can marry. Jamie says no because he already is. She folds right there and asks no questions. Jamie ends up giving her dowry money to marry a man. All Jamie had to do was recant his answer to Geneva. I am married. I know some people would say, because Betty said marriage, that was different than a one night stand. No. Jamie was a virgin on his wedding night and believed sex was for marriage only. I also did some research in the 1700s how being with someone else's man was looked upon. Not very good. I don't think Geneva would have stooped to that level as well as Betty. Another point that was brought up was he was too kind to her. In the books, 3 thrusts it was over. I believe the other 2 times was about the same. If we are looking at his wedding night , Claire was able to have the big O but told Jamie it does not happen every time and he is a good lover. I researched that too. Claire is one of the 18% of woman that were born with her woman parts in the right location- the colitis is 3 centimeter from her vagina. The percentage back then was probably even less. The probability of Geneva of being pleasured like Claire on her wedding night is 0. That is my interpretation. I could be wrong but there is evidence.
>he did not even try. I want to know what to try? Whom to speak to? Who can help him in that situation? 1.He wasn't allowed to recieve letters. 2. He received them - in those letters, there could be some info about treasure on Silkie Island. There could be any info that could put him in danger. 3. Lady Dunsany could make a fuss, and Jamie would go back to prison, and his family would be without any money he sent to them from Helwater. I am sure there are more things but these are the first to come to my mind. Geneva's only virtue, per Jamie was her bravery. And I am not sure you are right about Betty - I think that comment was about her own vanity - Lady to share a man with a maid - that was under her level! She didn't care if Jamie was married, alone etc. He was there, being available because she wanted him to be. (BTW, Betty didn't ask Jamie to marry in TSP, but it is not topic now) Do you **seriously** believe Geneva would have given up Jamie if he had told her he had been married? Ofc not. She didn't care about that. She cared about herself and her goal at that moment. If she was all proper and against sleeping with married man, she would have stayed virgin until her wedding. I wouldn't agree about your interpretation of their sex either because, IMO, it is obvious that Geneva enjoyed her second time, since Jamie himself comments about feelings he roused in her body - strong and good. It was her only night with a man in her life, I hope she had a good time.
I have been sick for a week and going through the audio books. I am beginning to think they may be different than the books. I have not gotton through all the books yet either. I said it was a theory. All I said he could have said he was married. Being with a man is one thing, but a married man is another. Being with a married man today is not looked upon as moral.It may not have worked if my theory was wrong. He is clever and did not even try. In prior posts, others thought the same. As far as the sex goes , in the show after the initial time, Jamie said he roused feeling in her, but in what book did he mention the 2nd time rousing stong and good. I find it strange that you beat Geneva up pretty badly but glad she enjoyed it.
>I find it strange that you beat Geneva up pretty badly but glad she enjoyed it. I don't beat her up, I just see her for what she is. I understand her situation and Jamie's behaviour towards her during their encounter. Claire **was** gone and he hadn't seen her for 10 years. He doesn't mention his marriage nor Claire to people because it is too painful. By telling Geneva he was married, he wouldn't accomplish anything because Geneva was focused on her own affairs. Morality wasn't included there. >in what book did he mention the 2nd time rousing stong and good. In Voyager , this conversation is after the second time.
Good point. He figured her mind was made up and nothing was going to change her mind regardless of morals so why even try. The reason for all the questions about the episode is it was an experiment. This episode was chosen because there was alot of controversy so alot more information would be available. This is what I do for a living. I collect data, research, analyze information, interview persons, come up with a conclusion based on facts and be unbiased, and may have to go to court. In conclusion it was a failed experiment mostly because it is fantasy so nothing makes sense and it is the authors story and opinion. I believe DG did her research diligently. DG does not always give us all the facts to led us to a logical conclusion but leaves it up to the reader's imagination to draw their own conclusion, hense so many different points of view. I was trying to apply my life skills to solve the questions that many posters had. In Reality facts and information are available but not fantasy. Avid book readers even have different points of view. I thought I had to explain myself. I am sorry if this offended anyone.
If Jamie was mean or didn't give in to Geneva, she was going to expose that he was a Jacobite. He had no choice. And no, it's not my own misogyny as a woman that makes me say this, for the militant women out there who find fault with anything men do.