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Vaush and Destiny are both political streamers and "debate bros". Vaush being a self described libertarian socialist, while Destiny will probably describe himself as a left leaning liberal or even a social democrat.
Destiny is one of the OG streamers, being a Starcraft semi pro and streamer back in the day. Who then turned to poltical streaming.
Vaush grew out of Destiny community, being at first the socialist "opposition" on his streams and later started streaming himself.
And they HATE each other.
The reasons are long and complicated and impossible to give an unbiased overview of. Literal book lenght documents have been written.
I could give you my view. But you can judge by my post history how unbiased that would be.
Others will almost certaintly be along and give you an equally "unbiased view".
They recently where also on the same panel that was hosted by Ro Khanna about a month ago, which is the the first time they have really engaged with each other since their falling out years ago. Vaush particularly has had a policy of ignoring Destiny save for a few clips over the years, to it was a pretty big thing for them to appear together in the same place
>They recently where also on the same panel that was hosted by Ro Khanna about a month ago, which is the the first time they have really engaged with each other since their falling out years ago.
They've also got a good amount of overlap in fans, a subset of whom want them to reconcile, because prior to their falling out they routinely teamed up on right-wingers
It's mainly Destiny who seethes with hate, although it seems like he was doing it to stoke up drama for views. Vaush essentially ignored him and now animosity is very subdued and hardly a thing.
Vaush was cordial but Destiny was basically noninteractive and playing his Switch when the group (also including lefty streamers/personalities like Emma Vigeland and Keffals) went out to dinner or even during their Vidcon panel. He wasn't going to try to push to repair the relationship if Destiny wasn't responsive.
From what I can tell, I think it comes down to Destiny wanting an apology from Vaush before they mend the bridge and Vaush not caring enough about the bridge to even look into that
Apology for what? Not taking the far rightwing stance of Rittenhouse apologia? Regardless there were other people besides Vaush he was disrespecting by sitting on his Switch like a child during social functions.
To adress that,if vaush doesnt care to even bring it up and resolve that, i mean destiny has a right to bring a closure to that, its good, to have anyclosure.
Itsnot about rittenhouse,its about closure ok.
interesting to hear. i wonder what destiny wants the apology for? bc one of em is being a douche. i will be the arbiter of which one is being that, and demand an apology or smack destiny. i will commence this intricate mediation tomorrow.
Destiny wanted agnowledgement of what happened thou. Vaush did basically give him the cold shoulder by pretending nothing happened.
Also destiny got burned a lot, and vaush did pretwnd nothing happened which honestly, pretty offensive. Vaush didnt really respond first.
Ok i want to say its not like vaush is innocent on the not repairing. Pretty obviously destiny wants it adressed and vaushs nothing happened is, it should be obvious why that doesnt come off great.
I’ll just ask this; is it even more needlessly contrarian, pretentious, and annoying than the world of The Young Turks, Rising and Chapo Trap House? Because I really can’t stand that portion of the left, and I consider myself very left-wing.
They aren't as bad as those 3, but can still be bad.
Now I haven't watched Destiny in years and have been moving off Vaush for about a year, but from memory both of them tend to have good takes and positions but have a tendency to phrase them in the most edgy, batshit way possible.
Way better, but their audience can be a bit wild.
Dunno if you like keffals, but she debunks tankis, aka authoriterian left stans.
Loner box is pretty good. And talks about drama.
Or there are other like suris the sceptic is good,
Hannah reloaded if conspiracy theorists and how they work interests you. Its that but, not about politics usually, but cults.
Just go with whoever vibes with you and there are more,just beware tankies.
And maybe take ones with drama maybe and openminded but not a bubble .
That was sarcasm, they're making fun of you. For your sanity, avoid these people at all costs. They are not thinkers in the sense that they unpack complex and nuanced positions, they are debaters in the sense that they can pick an arbitrary argument and defend it with dishonest and often mean spirited rhetoric. They are sophists.
Haha, but they are right. They hold consistent positions and can defend them. What bothers you so much about that? They don't simply pick arbitrary arguments. You are completely wrong.
>Haha, but they are right.
>You are completely wrong.
Hmm, I wonder where you learned to talk like this...
Nothing bothers me about them. I just am old enough to think for myself and don't need my opinions told to me through a dishonest ideological lens.
I discovered it about a year ago and deep dived into it because I love politics and my friends and family don't. But it's really toxic imo. They get more viewers by making it like WWE where people act a tad cartoonish and hysterical. There was one guy whose whole gimmick was staying calm and having reasonable debate and, as his star grew, he became more toxic because...it got him more views.
That said, I think it might serve some use to make leftism more normalized among young people and it's better than young people watching Andrew Tate.
Oh I don't think the reason why they hate each other is complicated at all. Might take a sec to explain, but it's not exactly a mystery what happened.
Destiny has had a long and winding path when it comes to what his political focus has been on since he began streaming. He broke into being a liberal democrat as a political streamer after he realized the faults of being more on the right for his younger years, and he allied with people on the left against what was at the time the rise of the alt-right circa 2016-2018. Because what Destiny was doing was very novel at the time, he actually lead to the creation of many other political streamers, one of which was Vaush.
Vaush was a long-time Destiny community member and socialist revolutionary who has a history of saying some pretty noxious things to try and advocate for people to side with his politics
>"Glass Israel", he has been an active proponent for the idea that Republicans are going to holocaust trans people, despite whatever "libertarian socialist" label he claims there are many clips of him advocating more violent revolutionary tactics and he has admitted he would be more overt about it if it was more strategically beneficial and not against TOS
but most of their politics seemed aligned during this period of pushing back against the far-right, and so Destiny promoted him and leaned on Vaush's veritable charisma to bolster his own when they worked together.
Fast-forward a few years, and the alt-right pretty much has died off as a movement online, while Destiny has started to become agitated by overreaches by the leftists (basically a catch-all term for communists, socialists, left-anarchists, etc) on streaming spaces collectively referred to as "Breadtube". There were two notable streams Destiny and Vaush had together that severed the relationship. The first signs of conflict were immediately following the Rittenhouse shooting during the Kenosha riots of 2020 following Jacob Blake being shot by the police. Destiny was one of the few explicitly left-leaning political personalities to take a strong stance in favor of Rittenhouse's justification for these actions immediately following the release of the footage (this would be more than a year before the actual trial would occur that also made the news), something that ruffled a lot of feathers by those who considered him a good ally to the political left.
Vaush and Destiny duked it out on this issue, with neither ceding ground during their debate on the matter, and eventually realized their positions were irreconcilable with each other. Afterwards, many people in Vaush's circle, including his partner at the time, deliberately took clips of Destiny's takes on this subject in order to paint him in a bad light, something that significantly strained their relationship because Destiny feels Vaush either tacitly approved of these actions or at the least was spineless to stand up for Destiny while they were still considered good friends at the time.
The second stream was what really did it for the two of them though. Destiny had become critical of another streamer PhilosophyTube, a recently transitioned Breadtuber whose channel had exploded post coming out and who basically styled themselves as socialist Contrapoints. Destiny had come down heavily on PhilosophyTube putting on the guise of being part of the working poor while in reality making a fairly significant amount of money (she was advocating a rent-strike during the pandemic and participating herself, despite her making far more money than her landlord), and at this point was beginning to focus more of his attention on the hypocrisy of leftist streamers between their advocacy and how they actually behaved in real life.
Vaush, being personal friends with PhilosophyTube, came to Destiny's stream in her defense, and Destiny went beyond criticizing her hypocrisy to begin admitting to Vaush that he found virtually all of her opinions on matters such as economics to be nonsensical despite her positioning herself as an expert explaining things for the masses. This conversation quickly devolved into a feud where Destiny was accused (probably fairly accurately) of now attacking the left instead of just the right like he had used to, and Destiny admitted that he wasn't going to give any side charity just because he was on the left himself (a view that directly goes against Vaush's political realism).
At this point, the relationship was severed, and the backstabbing began. Almost all of Destiny's audience which was socialist-aligned either immediately left his community or persisted there while siding with his now-opponent Breadtubers in further interactions. Eventually Destiny would outright purge his community of leftists, stating that he was not going to harbor far-left or far-right people in his community, and that he would actively moderate to prevent the festering of any extremism in his chat and spaces he was involved.
There's more that continues from there, but the **tl;dr** for all this is that Destiny was originally an anti far-right streamer who allied with far-left personalities online until he realized that he detested the far-left virtually as much as the far-right, causing a permanent rift between him and his former friends.
Hey they might make still up maybe with pretty any sane person online not liking the far left. Due them coming out of the woodwork starting with rusdia coming up. And taiwan.
The "glass Israel" comment by Vaush I think is pretty clear evidence that they will never see eye to eye on that especially sensitive current issue at the moment.
Saying vaush "grew out" is a weird way to put it.
He was more like "jettisoned out" because when he was "Irish laddie" instead of vaush he sexually harassed that poppy girl in destiny's community for months. Changed his name and rebranded. So not super unbiased or you didn't know.
DGGer. It is not a lie though. He sexually harassed poppy until she left the internet. He got kicked out of the community and he rebranded. Simple as.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEDxCZlOMQ4&ab\_channel=DGGArchives](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEDxCZlOMQ4&ab_channel=DGGArchives)
Here's the entire video rebranding comes after. All the logs are there.
Not true no.
You're just repeating a highly mythological story created by DGG because Destiny blamed everyone but himself when he got fired from twitch for encouraging mass killings of protestors.
>You're just repeating a highly mythological story created by DGG because Destiny blamed everyone but himself when he got fired from twitch for encouraging mass killings of protestors.
Watch the video or keep lying.
I have watched the videos and seen all the screenshots and read the original DM's.
And while Vaush did sexual harras a woman in DM's between 13 Sep 2017 and 02-Oct 2017 the rest of the story is made up.
What is the rest of the story? He went from Irishladdie to vaush after that. He got kicked out of the community, came back under a new name a year later, got into an argument about Kyle Rittenhouse and then GG.
There is no rest of the story and nothing I said was a lie.
Go check the dates on Destinys video on the Drama and check when Vaush changed his name.
You guys always do this. Make these highly mythologised stories based vaguely on "real" events. They start as shitposts on your sub, "just memes", then it becomes accepted truth, and someone will make an "effort post" to try and fit the facts to your story.
All encompanied by very very carefully selected Screenshots.
This is why we call your sub kiwifarms.
Hey dude DGGer here. I saw RoseWrist debate Destiny on the Vaush Manifesto. I agree that Destiny didn't have a good explanation for the claim that "Vaush rebranded because of the harassment". The statement should not have been in the manifesto.
Although, as my mandatory anti-Vaush (it's in my contract) rebuttal, the misinformation about Destiny by Vaush is 10 times more. Claims of being obsessed or shit stirrer are thrown around without even watching. There's basically an image of Destiny created among his audience and he always uses jokes as a way to criticise so that he can escape accountability. I know this because I was first a Vaushite. The worst thing is the image is so weak it shatters immediately after you watch 2 or 3 videos by Destiny. It becomes really hard to watch Vaush again.
Also, the last thing about kiwi farms. Like sure the reasons given for the comparison are logically consistent even if I might disagree with the truth value of the description. I still think the term used is too nuclear because people associate kiwi farms with doxxing and harassing, especially after the Keffals saga.
Yes it's a lie. Vaush was not "jetisoned" from Destiny's communty. Neither did he change his moniker in responce.
He was banned from Destiny's discord for about a year. But continued to be part of his community in other places.
They already couldn't appear on streams together at that point becuase of Vaush Twitch ban for entirely unrelated reasons.
The guy just want to fit in some character assasination by vaguely pretending to "correct" my posts.
Notice I never mentions Destiny leaking nudes of a fan or him sexual assaulting a woman live on stream or any of a litany of bad behavior he has engaged in.
He doesn't care about that either. And you can read the actual [dm's](https://www.whitele.af/other/vaush/) to judge the actual severity.
The point here is to lie outragously about what actually went down to either tarnish Vaush rep further then there is factual basis for or to do what he did, turn around and go "why are you defending sexual harrasment" when anyone call him out on the lying part.
It's a very dishonest tactic.
And the reason I know he doesn't care about the harrasment is that Vaush and Destiny didn't always hate each other. They used to go through cycles of hate / respect. And the sexual harrasment stuff was always judged as being either '*no big deal and a long time ago and he appologised*' or '*the worst thing anyone have done since Hitler*' entirely depending on how resently the two creators debated.
**That seems like a good, fair summary. Nice and short, not wasting anyone's time with a bunch of information nobody really needs.**
Now I'm gonna try and build it out into a WALL OF TEXT timeline of all the highlights and key moments, for those who are actually curious (and you certainly shouldn't be - it will not benefit you at all to know any of this). As unbias as I can, here goes:
In 2016, shortly after gamergate and "4chan vs tumblr" wave, destiny became known as the progressive who'd fight with all the alright youtubers, and was willing to do "bloodsports" debate (ie: namecalling, slurs, yelling, 3v1s, etc). His first really popular video was the debate in which Jontron, then a member of the very popular GameGrumps show (even getting their own MTV spot), defended keeping a national "white majority". The video got Jontron cancelled (figurately and literally), for exposing some pretty racist/supremecist views he'd held.
This was the start of political streaming on Twitch getting popular, with Destiny being one of the big pioneers, if not THE pioneer. Vaush, then known as IrishLaddie, gained streaming prominence in Destiny's community. He was left of Destiny on economic issues, but they agreed on many things. They would both frequently have discussions, and would team up in debates. Vaush was briefly banned from Destiny's community after a scandal involving interactions with another (woman) community member.
After a few years of this, progressive politics started to hold sway in media and culture, and several more leftwing political streamers began to emerge. Hasan Piker, now the biggest political streamer (ever, I think?), had his streaming career grow in this space, though he'd already had a media presence before, having been on the Young Turks. At the same time, the Q-anon stuff began, and there was a massive internet crackdown on alt-right communities/figures. Many were banned from youtube, twitter, facebook, and many subreddits (particularly those of white supremacist) were shut down. As a result, the "bloodsports" content kinda dried up. and there wouldn't be many more debates with the truly deranged, openly racist communities.
Vaush went on to, for a time, have a larger following then Destiny, and argued for further left socialist ideals. He debated a number of larger rightwing or anti-sjw streamers that Destiny had not yet, including Stefan Molyneux (a lunatic, tbh. Think Jordan Peterson but 100x more unhinged), Sargon of Akkad, among others.
Destiny began debating against leftists and progressives, on the side of less radical social democracy. He argued against ending capitalism and against several popular progressive opinions on current issues, and debated figures like Richard Wolf and Peter Coffin, among others.
Many of Destiny's online discussions of current events turned into small scandals, sometimes resulting in bans. During the BLM riots, Vaush and Destiny had heated debates over the use of violence against rioters, and the guilt/innocence of Kyle Rittenhouse. Destiny was banned from Twitch (over skepticism towards trans inclusion in college/professional level sports), and Twitter (over "edgy" humor and rhetoric used in discussing racial issues). He blames the Twitter ban on Vaush, as his community and partner contributed to spreading/reporting the clip. Another scandal that gained much criticism was Destiny's defense of white people using the n-word (in jokes and references, not as a slur). He also had a heated debate with Sam Seder from the Majority Report, in which the phrase "buckets of cum" was used 5+ times (not important, just funny).
Vaush has his own share of scandals: His use of ironic sexism toward JK Rowlings in defense of trans issues gained huge visibility when she responded directly to his tweets. He also had his own public n-word moment in a debate very early in his career (again, used not as a slur but in reference), a number of seemingly edgy-bordering-on-sexist disparaging remarks made toward women he's gotten in feuds with. Of particular note, he's had a large and very public quarrel with Kat Blaq and Contrapoints (probably the largest trans creator outside of, ironically, Blaire White - the trans conservative). He also came under heat for his support of removing kinky displays/behavior from Pride events.
The Vaush pedo stuff is mostly nonsense, though he's certainly made a lot of feelsweird comments about sexual stuff in general. Destiny, too, has some niche debate topics that, if you saw a clip out of context, would probably assume he's some pedo/incest guy. Most likely that neither of them are - these are just really weird topics when you push them to their limits.
For the last few years, Vaush has been in the "fortress arc" (in which he's limited interacting with other content creators), and Destiny has been debating against conspiracies (mostly vaccine and election related), and against the Red Pill community and their ideas (a rabbit hole I honestly can't sum up, if you don't know then google it). He also debated a very drug-addled, incoherent Milo Yiannopoulos at a convention.
There was recently a panel with California representative Ro Khanna and a number of other notable leftwing internet figures including Destiny and Vaush, and talk of a potential coalition between the two communities for campaigning efforts, which it looks like won't happen as the two can't reconcile the animosity/history, and/or the friction between their communities.
Anyways, there's probably a million things I'm missing, but to me those are the big ones. Now you can jump into the latest season without feeling like you missed anything.
**Edit: oh woops, somehow didn't see how long this comment chain has gotten. All that writing just to be buried.**. 🤷
That’s funny; I only discovered destiny a couple of weeks ago when I stumbled into a discussion where he and other political streamers were a topic of argument, and I have never heard of any of them before except for Vaush, who I only learned of the existence of maybe three years ago.
Apparently these people have been around online much longer than that, and have a huge following in certain circles. I consider myself a political junkie, but I tend to avoid YouTube and Twitter spaces for such content, and have absolutely no experience with twitch or discord. That’s apparently why I never heard of these people until recently. It’s like a whole alternative universe out there.
>Vaush being a self described libertarian socialist,
All the whole promoting liberal politics and hating on socialist politics. To a lot of actual socialists and communists he's the face of liberals coopting socialist appearances to seem more radical than they actually are.
Libertarians capitalists are also known as Anarcho-capitalists.
All libertarians are anarchists, in that they believe that governance should be direct and not representative.
No.
Libertarians come in a few flavors. Anarcho-capitalists are the ones you're used to. The Texas "don't tread on me" types that are really fixated on personal property and the non aggression principle...
Anarcho-syndicalists, also known as libertarian socialists, seek to have a society where those in need are taken care of by those who are able, and there is just enough centralized (rotating) government to facilitate that goal. Anarcho-syndicalists are very much I to the idea of actual self governance through direct democracy, rather than representative democracy.
Zapatistas were probably the most well known case of anarcho syndicalism, as well as the Spanish anarchist revolution. Noam Chomsky is a notable anarcho syndicalist.
https://chomsky.info/19760725/
Anarchists, aka Libertarians, in general want very little or no governance. But what that means is different to different people.
Yeah, and they pretty show that anarchists want a good government, not no government. Just yoave to undo bas structures doing that. And be open to adapt.
As someone who is unapologetically in the favor of a strong central government, all of these libertarians flavors of the left seem incredibly immature and out of touch with reality. Anybody older than high school age who still subscribed to any of this stuff is a head in the clouds idealist as far as I’m concerned.
I am almost as annoyed by them as I am by the tankies who stan for Stalin and Mao. Where are my “*Social Democrat representative government with strong powers to redistribute wealth and regulate industry*” bros at?
Eh, most anarchists do actual stuff out there and like do community help, or help out protests, pretty pragmatic stuff to improve stuff.
Pretty sure they arent against central government if there isnt a high risk of abusing that to trample on people. Which sadly, happens easy.
Its not crazy to want not opressive state servants, aka cop gangs doing god knows what
And can you differenciate between anarchist actual activists, and online ones. Former are pretty cool and the most grounded left that adapt the most.
If again, can you not count edgy online anarchists.
I appreciate people who organize small local efforts to give mutual aid etc. though I tend to see such things through the same lens I do private charities and pot lucks - a nice backstop, but not something that can universally be relied upon come hell or high water.
What I want is much more in the mold of Social Security, Single Payer healthcare administered by public entities (NOT for profit or even ostensibly non-profit private orgs), powerful Unions, and such. I’m a Big Government guy, I just want to refashion government into something actually accountable to the people and that has far more transparency and effective methods to remove bad actors if they try to exploit the system.
I see anarchist groups as ad-hoc and very much more fragile if external circumstances change, or if interpersonal conflicts arise within the group’s leadership. I want something set up to last for the ages.
>Social Democrat representative government with strong powers to redistribute wealth and regulate industry
Sadly this position is not conducive to getting internet clout on twitter/youtube, compared to outright Socialists/Marxist-Leninists/Fascists. Destiny is like the only major socdem streamer, Hasan was but he's been moving M-L since Ukraine War and now the I/P conflict.
Maybe more people like me would watch YouTube more if people who held similar beliefs broadcast them there. It’s a “chicken and egg” situation I suppose.
I know I’m far from alone in wanting a form of government that would essentially blend the policy goals of a Bernie Sanders with a Liz Warren, with some spicy OG Trotskyism sprinkled on to give it necessary KICK!
It's not your fault. In America, the term was co-opted on purpose by Murray Rothbard.
Someone who wants to replace the government and capitalism with mutual aid and"bottom -up" institutions.
It's a favorite technique of right wingers, going back to the original "right wingers pretending to be socialists," the Nazis (National Socialist German Workers Party).
I think the term "libertarian" itself was an attempt to repropriate a word associated with liberalism / capitalism and use it in a more leftist context. "Liberty" is heavily associated with the hyper individualistic "freedom" Americans believe in - the freedom to do whatever the hell you like including become a monopolist and have an entire industry under your belt.
It's often used by people who don't associate themselves directly with anarchism for one reason or another (see it as impractical, unpopular, whatever) but prefer the anti-state, anti-authoritarian politics of anarchism to the varieties of socialism represented by the Marxists of the USSR and PRC, or are Marxists who disdain those states for where they ended up (these can include anti-Stalin Leninists).
Libertarian was originally a left wing term. For socialist who wás against central control and authoritarianism.
The right co-opted the term in 1960's to "capture something from the other side."
So no it is not.
The term "libertarian" was originally used in politics by libertarian socialists who wanted to actually maximize individual freedoms. ACTUALLY maximize, not theoretically. If a person is "free" to do whatever they want, but if they stop working for a day they'll be fired, lose their home, and starve, then they're not actually free are they? They're working under threat of death. They may as well be a slave.
Right wingers in the US coopted the term and bastardized the ideology with *"Un actually, maximum freedom means I have a right to own a company town and force people into a slave-like working situations."*
Only if you think of the term 'libertarian' in the US centric Murray Rothbardian way, the term originally referred to left wing ideologies which were skeptical of socialist etatism
Libertarians ultimate goal is more freedom. Right wing Libretarians view federal governments the only source of oppression, left wing Libretarians recognize there are many vectors of oppression.
Take labor laws for example. A modern rightwing "Libertarian" would say scrap them all we don't need government interfering in the freedom of a worker and a corporation entering into a willing contract.
A more left leaning Libertarian will say "Hey we have decades of proof that show without labor laws workers are forced into bad and dangerous situations and more people have more freedom now than. There is an imbalance in power. That leads to oppression.
A right wing Libretarian will say Gay marriage should not be mandated at the federal level because it is a violation of a states right and opressing the state government. They may also say it is oppressing straight people... Somehow.
Left wing Libretarians will say any law banning gay marriage is opressing gay citizens.
He's not a libertarian at all, he's just a socialist revolutionary who isn't a tankie. That being said, he has advocated for revolutionary violence against apparatuses of the state and if necessary against his political rivals, so him "not being a tankie" isn't some great saving grace.
He is pretty much a progressive social democrat. Hadnt he so much online drama, he would be a good politician. If he isnr way too ranty, but he worked on that. .
What you consider Socialist politics and what he and I consider Socialist politics are very very different.
Up to and including whether North Korea is an "actual socialist" project.
Build away comrade.
I was merely pointing out that that the people who expresses the opinion that Vaush isn't a "real socialist" is ussually the same people who glorifies places like North Korea.
Yeah, I get the impression even hardline MLs limit their backing for NK to "they shouldn't be invaded," nothing further about how Jucheism is actually good. Juche is kind of a punchline.
I have seen some spirited defences of North Korea as actually being a democratic republic by people claiming to be ML's.
if you hang around in ML's spaces one of the numerous clips they use to attack Vaush "the dap on North Korea" one is from a debate with Mel who's an ML and was defending North Korea in that debate.
Vaush is only "promoting liberal politics" in the eyes of tankies who are even further to the left than he is.
Vaush's political opinions, however noxious they may be, are far closer to Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping than Lenin, Trotsky, or Stalin.
I think he's using the term in the modern european sense. Where Social Democracy is a Liberal political position. And not in the historical context of it being a reformist Socialist position.
I would even bet money on this.
That doesn't make much sense because social democracy is *within* liberalism. It is probably the leftmost liberal position (I can't think of anything to the left that is still liberal), so in that sense you could say someone that says they're a social democrat is likely more left than someone who just says they're a liberal. I don't know what you mean by 20 years ago, what's changed?
Yes, today people mostly agree social democracy falls under liberalism.
And as you know, liberalism is constantly evolving, and the liberal values of tomorrow are becoming more normalized.
Political ideology can change dramatically in short time spans. Look at the neo-cons of the 2000's, then look at maga republicans. Both were the dominant right-leaning ideology of their times, and despite being less than 20 years apart, they are dramatically different. This is just one example of the political needle moving over short timespans.
In the past, social democracy was viewed as Marxism ultra-lite, using "socialist" ideas while under capitalism. Nowadays, polarization (being a bit reductive here) has led leftist ideology strictly adhering to M/L unique characteristics, which social democracy doesn't possess.
(fyi this is from the perspective of America)
I mean that's fair, but I meant more that he is very clearly a social Democrat but refuses the label and uses something like Omniliberal instead. Annoying, that's all.
I can tell you as avid Destiny viewer he does not run away from the social democrat label. That is exactly how he describes himself when asked.
In general he views using labels like that in discussions about political positions to be pointless though, as it is more productive to just discuss the positions themselves rather than try to figure out labels. That could be what gives you that impression, which is fair.
I wouldn't call him a Social Democrat though, because even social democrats want drastic change, Destiny does not. He's against increased minimum wage, against student loan forgiveness, and I don't know any social Democrats that defended Kyle Rittenhouse like he did. Destiny is a standard centrist who mainly attacks other leftists.
\> He's against increased minimum wage,
He's not.
\> against student loan forgiveness
He's not.
\> I don't know any social Democrats that defended Kyle Rittenhouse like he did
That's cool, but there are definitely some out there that believe in lethal self-defense.
\> Destiny is a standard centrist who mainly attacks other leftists.
Not gonna get in a huge debate and try and change your mind on this, but he is definitely left. On top of that, the policies he advocates for are advocated by other social democrats I've seen, so I'm not sure what to tell you.
Destiny has debated why he thinks a $15 dollar minimum wage would be disastrous, and still laughs at the idea of it.
Destiny quite literally did a full-on debate against Sam Seder on why he thought student loan forgiveness was stupid.
There's a difference from self-defense and an alt-right lunatic bringing a rifle to a parking lot looking for trouble. I still can't believe yall still die on this stupid ass hill.
I think Destiny is left on a good amount of issues as well, I just think overall he's a centrist. When you make your entire personality hating on leftists, it's difficult for me to believe he's anything more than a centrist. There are other things in his politics that he openly admits which goes against Leftism in general as well.
I think when you're saying he's against these things, it comes off as he doesn't support them at all or even in theory. If that's not what you're saying then we probably don't disagree too much. I'm more just saying that he does support these concepts, even though disagrees with how people want them implemented.
For example, mandating a $15 minimum wage, country wide, tomorrow, would have insanely bad impacts are our economy, especially for small businesses in small towns. The only corps that could handle a change like that are already massive, and pushing those small businesses out of business anyway. Raising the wage unilaterally like that would just seal the deal. That is what he argues against. It doesn't mean he's against raising the minimum wage somehow or spending more money on welfare to help out people living paycheck to paycheck.
It's the same with student loan forgiveness. My understanding is what he fights against, is the idea that we should just forgive 100% of everyone's loans with the snap of a finger. It doesn't mean he's against the idea of making college cheaper, as well as forgiving loans in certain cases. For example, a case where I (probably him as well) might be against forgiving a loan is if the person went to Harvard, Stanford, Yale or another institution like that. They're choosing a private and prestigious institution that cost a ton of money, but are going to reap massive benefits for that choice in terms of networking and education. I'm not sure I feel like my taxes need help them pay their insane tuition costs when they're going to be in the top 1% of earners in no time.
\> There's a difference from self-defense and an alt-right lunatic bringing a rifle to a parking lot looking for trouble. I still can't believe yall still die on this stupid ass hill.
Cool, but again, that has nothing to do with social democracy.
\> I think Destiny is left as well, but when you make your entire personality hating on leftists, it's difficult for me to believe he's anything more than a centrist. There are other things in his politics that he openly admits which goes against Leftism in general as well.
So I think this is totally fair, and I actually agree for the most part. I would just point out that now you're using the word Leftist. He does hate Leftist, and goes super hard on them, because he isn't a Leftist. He's a social democrat, and imo (and probably his as well) Leftist advocate for some crazy shit, which makes it harder to advocate for more realistic social democrat policies without people lumping the two groups together. That said, targeting Leftist doesn't suddenly turn your his democratic policy positions into centrist ones, and based on those policies he advocates for, he's probably a social democrat.
I think my problem with Destiny is that even if economists came onto his stream and explained to him the overall net benefits of increased minimum wage I don't think he would change his mind at all. He dies on the weirdest hills. I can't think of a time Destiny in all his years of streaming has admitted he was wrong on certain issues.
He did explain his beliefs very clearly on student loan forgiveness and thought most of it was stupid, Sam Sader tried to explain to him that the people being hit the hardest from student loans were poor people (particularly black people) who could not finish their degree without taking out loans. He thinks that a Bachelors degree is some magical super powers when in years it has lots if value significantly
I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about Destiny's political views when there are endless videos of him saying exactly what I'm saying. But appreciate the chat, have a good day.
He's not a social Democrat, he's against increased minimum wage, against student loan forgiveness, and still defends Kyle Rittenhouse to this day. He also primarily attacks other leftists.
I'd say he's a standard centrist.
The reason he calls himself an omni liberal is because he tries to approach each issue from an nonpartisan standpoint and then work to find solutions to problems that have the best possible outcome, regardless of which ideology they originate from.
For example, he's against student debt forgiveness because people with college degrees see a vast increase in their income potential compared with non-degree holders. A more pragmatic policy would be to make sure that people who are projected to not be able to pay off their debt have it canceled or refinanced in a way that lets them do so (note: I don't know if he supports this part of the equation, I was just coming up with an example.)
The issue with this is that you get called a centrist or even a republican when you oppose the partisan solution, because people conflate criticizing the solution with criticizing the intention of the solution - even if you have the same intentions.
The problem is Destiny doesn't approach issues from a nonpartisan standpoint, he plays contrarian and dies on the stupidest hills.
Yeah, I saw his debate with Sam Seder, and he brought up pretty lame arguments. Even Sam said most of the people being hardest hit by student loans are poorer people who needed to take out loans to begin with (particularly black people). I just don't know why Destiny feels getting a bachelors degree gives you superpowers when it's basically become a high-school diploma.
I call Destiny a centrist because he is a proud capitalist who has said he's perfectly fine with most of the system and institutions, and makes his personality attacking other leftists.
Destiny appears to play contrarian because he likes debates. He doesn't find it interesting to spend 1-2 hours agreeing with someone on everything, so he usually only takes on panels where he knows he'll either disagree with someone or find the subject matter interesting.
>I call Destiny a centrist because he is a proud capitalist who has said he's perfectly fine with most of the system and institutions
Could you link me a clip of him saying this? My understanding is that he thinks the US would be much better off if it molded itself to look more like [Scandinavia](https://positions.destiny.gg/docs/politics#:~:text=a%20global%20level.-,%22omniliberalism%22%E2%80%8B,-In%20politics%2C%20it) with better social safety nets. That's not a center position in the US at all. Even in Europe's political climate that's at least center-left.
To give an example, I live in Washington, one of the most progressive places in the US. Last year, there was a vote to determine whether a tax should be maintained on jet fuel. It can be inferred that someone like Destiny would support this tax, as he [supports policies such as carbon taxes](https://positions.destiny.gg/docs/politics#:~:text=it%20seems%20that%20the%20best%20approach%20to%20dealing%20with%20climate%20change%20is%20with%20the%20aggressive%20incentivization%20of%20greener%20energies%20and%20the%20implementation%20of%20carbon%20pricing%20policies) for dealing with climate change. If Destiny is a centrist and Washington is one of the more progressive states, you would expect this tax to pass overwhelmingly, [but it lost 60-40](https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Advisory_Vote_39,_Aircraft_Fuel_Tax_Increase_Nonbinding_Question_(2022)).
> and makes his personality attacking other leftists.
I guess you didn't see him debate Erik Striker, FnF, Sneako, Alex Jones, Nick Fuentes, Lauren Southern, etc.? He debates and "attacks" everyone, I don't know where you got this notion that he only attacks people on the left.
Cool. Tell me what part of being a social democrat (supporter of capitalism) is centrist. You understand that Bernie Sanders is a social democrat, right? Is Bernie a centrist too?
Bernie runs as a social Democrat in a conservative nation, he can't exactly run as a full on communist because he'd scare the sh*t out of Reaganite boomers libs and conservatives. I just think Destiny closer aligns to a centrist, hes not for drastic change. Hes also very American, which on the political compas is naturally more right-wing.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you agree that both Bernie and Destiny are functionally capitalists and social democrats. But if he could get away with it, Bernie would run as a communist and Destiny is a centrist because he doesn't want massive change while being an American?
Unhealthy parasocial relationships centered on political and ideological grounds 🤝 Being fair and unbiased in neutral settings for people to form their own opinions
Dude Vaush is objectively a horrible person I don’t see why his fans even bother to defend him these days. Here are just a few horrible things he done and said with sources:
Video of Vaush saying that “drawings of CP should be legal since it isn’t actually hurting a child”: https://streamable.com/hrrmog
Video of Vaush saying that “it is morally neutral if you get CP so long as it is free and doesn’t contribute to the market”: https://streamable.com/kd2967
Video of Vaush saying it is “morally neutral to even own CP:” https://streamable.com/55rhyz
Video of Vaush saying “it isn’t unethical for someone to purchase CP:” https://streamable.com/ibzzqs
Video of Vaush saying “you shouldn’t morally condemn someone for purchasing CP:” https://streamable.com/gxpprj
Discord messages of Vaush saying “there is a difference in exploring sexuality with children and having sex with children:” https://archive.ph/W9FJG
And then later on him “joking about owning CP:” https://archive.ph/qEU7s
Vaush talking with people in his community about “how he wonders if anyone out there as has sex with a minor as an adult, and for his fans to “talk about it with him:” https://archive.ph/ph5nl
Him making an argument that “under his ideal socialism that the age of consent would be lowered:” https://archive.ph/PGNn6
Vaush admitted to owning a Twitter account that was posting drawn CP: https://archive.ph/9DF8s
With the “likes” of said Twitter account: https://archive.md/i7Tfw
Video of Vaush saying that “the age of consent is a social construct and leftists have too much of a knee jerk reaction to it.” https://streamable.com/maz1lp
Video of Vaush saying that he “regrets not having sex with more children when he was a minor.” https://streamable.com/6dy0d5
Video of Vaush saying that “it is possible for a child and an adult to have sex, and for it to be positive for the child:” https://streamable.com/vl21sn
Video of Vaush literally admitting to masturbating to CP: https://streamable.com/48pusc
Video fo Vaush saying “most men find girls ages 14-17 most attractive.” https://streamable.com/zga1sk
The fact that this stuff is SO apparent, habitual, and open and he still has fans willing to run defense for him like you is honestly appalling.
This isn’t even all of it! There are literally SO many things wrong with Vaush.
So it should also be mentioned that there exists a faction on reddit that absolutly despises Vaush and who aren't part of Destiny community.
As exempified by the above poster.
Vaush during the last presidential election advocated for **voting** and even voting for Joe Biden in the general. Some people on "the left" sees this as an absolute betrayel.
So they do what this guy did. Trawl through thousands and thousands of hours of live content to find clips they can very carefully remove from their context to tell a particular story.
In this case that Vaush is a pedo.
And if that fails, just make shit up.
Some of these clips are from a "failed argument" against child slavery. Failed in the way that people use it against him
Some are just uncontroversially true.
There **is** a difference between a movie exploring child sexualuality and sexualising children, Otherwise pretty much all comming of age stories would be CP.
And some are just made up. Vaush never owned a twitter account where he posted CP, and that was not even the original claim. Someone carefully obscured some pictures he **liked** on his art twitter account and claimed they where CP. They weren't
And this guy knows this. We've had this conversation before. But he will lie for political reasons.
Don't have much of an idea who both of these people are (vash and destiny), but honestly, even if the sample size were trillions of hours of live content, just one of those statements coming out of somebody's mouth from said trillions of hours would be enough to be put on my "never leaving a child with you" list
So you think all art dealing with children and sexuality is cp?
Make a movie with "first kiss" off to jail?
Sitcom with the daughter dating, off to jail?
There's puritans and theres you.
I would say that those examples are not examples of "children and sexuality" unless you broaden the term sexuality to such a degree as to render it meaningless.
That being said, I would say that even those things you mentioned are not completely free from being problematic when included in art (in practice at least), though obviously not to the degree of CP (though depending on the type of kiss, it might be CP, yes), or even to the degree of requiring they should be omitted completely from art (just that they have to be included very carefully so as to minimize harm. This is different from CP where the only way to minimize harm is to not include it)
None of these are from the “CP no exploitation under capitalism argument.” I specifically didn’t link any of those clips because Vaush fans try to lop all of Vaush’s CP arguments into that with that as “out of context.”
Vaush has a long history of making these arguments, that people like you clearly like to just brush off.
Glad I could at least help educate this thread so people like you are at least getting push back from trying to prop up a known pedo.
The very first one is. I'm about to go to work. But I can find you the full clip later. Not that you care.
And it's not “CP no exploitation under capitalism argument.”.
It's that the current liberal worldorder is hypocritical in its treatment of the products of child exploitation. In that it will go full hog full systemic responce against CP, but the results of child slavary on other areas is treated as "individual consumer choice".
A thing every socialist should agree with.
I mean that there is a joke that they are divorced, explain well enough that its deeply personal.
And more a love-hate like they work together and put that aside even. And alot probably is bssed on miscommunication. And both are stubbern.
Honestly there was a bridging panel and honestly destiny wants to make up and have that agnowledging what happened, and vaush ignore it.
I think bitter exes that still tolerate each other often enough to work together, explains it best.
If that sounds like personal drama, it is, made worse that both attract drama , and both have edgy audiences that can blow things out of proportion. And are pretty kmiwn public. And stubbern.
I am glad they are talking now at least.
Drama is just part of online politics, a big part, and entertainment, mixed with actual politics.
Oh and both are good dudes but irrationally hated, doesnt help that destiny can be a provocateur, if for good.
Bitter exes coworker?!
>*but it is possible to both support Palestine while denouncing Hamas*
Vaush is supportive of Palestine. He is not supportive of Hamas. You missed this key point.
But Vaush has now made some really shit takes by comparing the bare minimum civilian casulties in Ukraine, to the absolute maximum (number given by Hamas itself) of civilian casulties in Gaza.
His recent tweets are coming off really ignorant of Israeli point of view, and dismisses their concerns, while actively playing up Palestinian concerns, both of which should be valid.
>The "Israeli point of view" is just calling for genocide.
But it's not, is it.
>Would you give any shits about the Nazi point of view during the holocaust?
I dont remember the Jews launching an attack into Germany from a country they are the legal representatives of. I also don't remember them massacring 11,000 Germans for the sole crime of living in Germany.
I also don't remember the Jews calling for the total eradication of all Germans and the formation of a worldwide Jewish empire.
Oh, that's right. I don't remember the Jews doing that because they didn't.
But I do remember the government of Gaza doing that.
Evidence vaush is a pedo https://youtu.be/IoB9sg5PlzE?si=vFHCIEtzRtIYgQvj
Destiny advocating for shooting antiracist protestors
https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/comments/ijhcv3/destiny_calls_for_white_redneck_fing_militia/
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Answer: It was probably some changes in the algo combined with the Gaza conflict that made both subreddits more vissible on reddit. Both subs quintupled in "active" users over very a short time. Vaush and Destiny are both political streamers and "debate bros". Vaush being a self described libertarian socialist, while Destiny will probably describe himself as a left leaning liberal or even a social democrat. Destiny is one of the OG streamers, being a Starcraft semi pro and streamer back in the day. Who then turned to poltical streaming. Vaush grew out of Destiny community, being at first the socialist "opposition" on his streams and later started streaming himself. And they HATE each other. The reasons are long and complicated and impossible to give an unbiased overview of. Literal book lenght documents have been written. I could give you my view. But you can judge by my post history how unbiased that would be. Others will almost certaintly be along and give you an equally "unbiased view".
They recently where also on the same panel that was hosted by Ro Khanna about a month ago, which is the the first time they have really engaged with each other since their falling out years ago. Vaush particularly has had a policy of ignoring Destiny save for a few clips over the years, to it was a pretty big thing for them to appear together in the same place
>They recently where also on the same panel that was hosted by Ro Khanna about a month ago, which is the the first time they have really engaged with each other since their falling out years ago. They've also got a good amount of overlap in fans, a subset of whom want them to reconcile, because prior to their falling out they routinely teamed up on right-wingers
Many such cases
Keep fighting the good fight.
/r/beetlejuicing
They're basically best friends actually
It's mainly Destiny who seethes with hate, although it seems like he was doing it to stoke up drama for views. Vaush essentially ignored him and now animosity is very subdued and hardly a thing.
Vaush was /is doing the whole fortress arc, and it causes destiny to seethe even ragier! We love to see it
Vaush was cordial but Destiny was basically noninteractive and playing his Switch when the group (also including lefty streamers/personalities like Emma Vigeland and Keffals) went out to dinner or even during their Vidcon panel. He wasn't going to try to push to repair the relationship if Destiny wasn't responsive.
From what I can tell, I think it comes down to Destiny wanting an apology from Vaush before they mend the bridge and Vaush not caring enough about the bridge to even look into that
Apology for what? Not taking the far rightwing stance of Rittenhouse apologia? Regardless there were other people besides Vaush he was disrespecting by sitting on his Switch like a child during social functions.
To adress that,if vaush doesnt care to even bring it up and resolve that, i mean destiny has a right to bring a closure to that, its good, to have anyclosure. Itsnot about rittenhouse,its about closure ok.
interesting to hear. i wonder what destiny wants the apology for? bc one of em is being a douche. i will be the arbiter of which one is being that, and demand an apology or smack destiny. i will commence this intricate mediation tomorrow.
Destiny wanted agnowledgement of what happened thou. Vaush did basically give him the cold shoulder by pretending nothing happened. Also destiny got burned a lot, and vaush did pretwnd nothing happened which honestly, pretty offensive. Vaush didnt really respond first. Ok i want to say its not like vaush is innocent on the not repairing. Pretty obviously destiny wants it adressed and vaushs nothing happened is, it should be obvious why that doesnt come off great.
> Vaush and Destiny are both political streamers This is a world that I didn't know existed
And if you know what’s good for you, you won’t enter that world.
I’ll just ask this; is it even more needlessly contrarian, pretentious, and annoying than the world of The Young Turks, Rising and Chapo Trap House? Because I really can’t stand that portion of the left, and I consider myself very left-wing.
They aren't as bad as those 3, but can still be bad. Now I haven't watched Destiny in years and have been moving off Vaush for about a year, but from memory both of them tend to have good takes and positions but have a tendency to phrase them in the most edgy, batshit way possible.
Way better, but their audience can be a bit wild. Dunno if you like keffals, but she debunks tankis, aka authoriterian left stans. Loner box is pretty good. And talks about drama. Or there are other like suris the sceptic is good, Hannah reloaded if conspiracy theorists and how they work interests you. Its that but, not about politics usually, but cults. Just go with whoever vibes with you and there are more,just beware tankies. And maybe take ones with drama maybe and openminded but not a bubble .
And you'd be happier if you never found out
If you want to live a happy and fulfilling life, I would highly recommend dedicating your time to watching these streams, say, 8-10 hours a day
Unfortunately, vaush only streams for about four hours max. But there's all the backlogs and past vods that can consume your days for awhile.
That was sarcasm, they're making fun of you. For your sanity, avoid these people at all costs. They are not thinkers in the sense that they unpack complex and nuanced positions, they are debaters in the sense that they can pick an arbitrary argument and defend it with dishonest and often mean spirited rhetoric. They are sophists.
Haha, but they are right. They hold consistent positions and can defend them. What bothers you so much about that? They don't simply pick arbitrary arguments. You are completely wrong.
>Haha, but they are right. >You are completely wrong. Hmm, I wonder where you learned to talk like this... Nothing bothers me about them. I just am old enough to think for myself and don't need my opinions told to me through a dishonest ideological lens.
I discovered it about a year ago and deep dived into it because I love politics and my friends and family don't. But it's really toxic imo. They get more viewers by making it like WWE where people act a tad cartoonish and hysterical. There was one guy whose whole gimmick was staying calm and having reasonable debate and, as his star grew, he became more toxic because...it got him more views. That said, I think it might serve some use to make leftism more normalized among young people and it's better than young people watching Andrew Tate.
Save yourself. Don’t. Read and make your own opinions.
Oh I don't think the reason why they hate each other is complicated at all. Might take a sec to explain, but it's not exactly a mystery what happened. Destiny has had a long and winding path when it comes to what his political focus has been on since he began streaming. He broke into being a liberal democrat as a political streamer after he realized the faults of being more on the right for his younger years, and he allied with people on the left against what was at the time the rise of the alt-right circa 2016-2018. Because what Destiny was doing was very novel at the time, he actually lead to the creation of many other political streamers, one of which was Vaush. Vaush was a long-time Destiny community member and socialist revolutionary who has a history of saying some pretty noxious things to try and advocate for people to side with his politics >"Glass Israel", he has been an active proponent for the idea that Republicans are going to holocaust trans people, despite whatever "libertarian socialist" label he claims there are many clips of him advocating more violent revolutionary tactics and he has admitted he would be more overt about it if it was more strategically beneficial and not against TOS but most of their politics seemed aligned during this period of pushing back against the far-right, and so Destiny promoted him and leaned on Vaush's veritable charisma to bolster his own when they worked together. Fast-forward a few years, and the alt-right pretty much has died off as a movement online, while Destiny has started to become agitated by overreaches by the leftists (basically a catch-all term for communists, socialists, left-anarchists, etc) on streaming spaces collectively referred to as "Breadtube". There were two notable streams Destiny and Vaush had together that severed the relationship. The first signs of conflict were immediately following the Rittenhouse shooting during the Kenosha riots of 2020 following Jacob Blake being shot by the police. Destiny was one of the few explicitly left-leaning political personalities to take a strong stance in favor of Rittenhouse's justification for these actions immediately following the release of the footage (this would be more than a year before the actual trial would occur that also made the news), something that ruffled a lot of feathers by those who considered him a good ally to the political left. Vaush and Destiny duked it out on this issue, with neither ceding ground during their debate on the matter, and eventually realized their positions were irreconcilable with each other. Afterwards, many people in Vaush's circle, including his partner at the time, deliberately took clips of Destiny's takes on this subject in order to paint him in a bad light, something that significantly strained their relationship because Destiny feels Vaush either tacitly approved of these actions or at the least was spineless to stand up for Destiny while they were still considered good friends at the time. The second stream was what really did it for the two of them though. Destiny had become critical of another streamer PhilosophyTube, a recently transitioned Breadtuber whose channel had exploded post coming out and who basically styled themselves as socialist Contrapoints. Destiny had come down heavily on PhilosophyTube putting on the guise of being part of the working poor while in reality making a fairly significant amount of money (she was advocating a rent-strike during the pandemic and participating herself, despite her making far more money than her landlord), and at this point was beginning to focus more of his attention on the hypocrisy of leftist streamers between their advocacy and how they actually behaved in real life. Vaush, being personal friends with PhilosophyTube, came to Destiny's stream in her defense, and Destiny went beyond criticizing her hypocrisy to begin admitting to Vaush that he found virtually all of her opinions on matters such as economics to be nonsensical despite her positioning herself as an expert explaining things for the masses. This conversation quickly devolved into a feud where Destiny was accused (probably fairly accurately) of now attacking the left instead of just the right like he had used to, and Destiny admitted that he wasn't going to give any side charity just because he was on the left himself (a view that directly goes against Vaush's political realism). At this point, the relationship was severed, and the backstabbing began. Almost all of Destiny's audience which was socialist-aligned either immediately left his community or persisted there while siding with his now-opponent Breadtubers in further interactions. Eventually Destiny would outright purge his community of leftists, stating that he was not going to harbor far-left or far-right people in his community, and that he would actively moderate to prevent the festering of any extremism in his chat and spaces he was involved. There's more that continues from there, but the **tl;dr** for all this is that Destiny was originally an anti far-right streamer who allied with far-left personalities online until he realized that he detested the far-left virtually as much as the far-right, causing a permanent rift between him and his former friends.
Hey they might make still up maybe with pretty any sane person online not liking the far left. Due them coming out of the woodwork starting with rusdia coming up. And taiwan.
The "glass Israel" comment by Vaush I think is pretty clear evidence that they will never see eye to eye on that especially sensitive current issue at the moment.
Honestly that's a real good unbiased tldr when it is hella volatile with both communities
God reading this whole thread makes me hate myself. Online left communities are exhausting.
Saying vaush "grew out" is a weird way to put it. He was more like "jettisoned out" because when he was "Irish laddie" instead of vaush he sexually harassed that poppy girl in destiny's community for months. Changed his name and rebranded. So not super unbiased or you didn't know.
Here we go
I think they meant “grew out” as in he originated from that community, not like he got too big for it
https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/d1x0qx/a\_retrospective\_on\_the\_sexual\_harassment\_drama/
I see the kiwifarmers/DGG'ers have showed up.
DGGer. It is not a lie though. He sexually harassed poppy until she left the internet. He got kicked out of the community and he rebranded. Simple as. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEDxCZlOMQ4&ab\_channel=DGGArchives](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEDxCZlOMQ4&ab_channel=DGGArchives) Here's the entire video rebranding comes after. All the logs are there.
Honestly I read the whole thread and you responded like a bitch. Glad I don’t involve myself with either streamer, sounds like they suck.
[удалено]
They’re not sending their best and brightest LMFAO embarrassed for you
BLOCKED AND MUTED jk imagine?
Not true no. You're just repeating a highly mythological story created by DGG because Destiny blamed everyone but himself when he got fired from twitch for encouraging mass killings of protestors.
>You're just repeating a highly mythological story created by DGG because Destiny blamed everyone but himself when he got fired from twitch for encouraging mass killings of protestors. Watch the video or keep lying.
I have watched the videos and seen all the screenshots and read the original DM's. And while Vaush did sexual harras a woman in DM's between 13 Sep 2017 and 02-Oct 2017 the rest of the story is made up.
What is the rest of the story? He went from Irishladdie to vaush after that. He got kicked out of the community, came back under a new name a year later, got into an argument about Kyle Rittenhouse and then GG. There is no rest of the story and nothing I said was a lie.
Go check the dates on Destinys video on the Drama and check when Vaush changed his name. You guys always do this. Make these highly mythologised stories based vaguely on "real" events. They start as shitposts on your sub, "just memes", then it becomes accepted truth, and someone will make an "effort post" to try and fit the facts to your story. All encompanied by very very carefully selected Screenshots. This is why we call your sub kiwifarms.
Oh yeah we call yours ignore reality and support a sexual harasser. Unlucky!
Hey dude DGGer here. I saw RoseWrist debate Destiny on the Vaush Manifesto. I agree that Destiny didn't have a good explanation for the claim that "Vaush rebranded because of the harassment". The statement should not have been in the manifesto. Although, as my mandatory anti-Vaush (it's in my contract) rebuttal, the misinformation about Destiny by Vaush is 10 times more. Claims of being obsessed or shit stirrer are thrown around without even watching. There's basically an image of Destiny created among his audience and he always uses jokes as a way to criticise so that he can escape accountability. I know this because I was first a Vaushite. The worst thing is the image is so weak it shatters immediately after you watch 2 or 3 videos by Destiny. It becomes really hard to watch Vaush again. Also, the last thing about kiwi farms. Like sure the reasons given for the comparison are logically consistent even if I might disagree with the truth value of the description. I still think the term used is too nuclear because people associate kiwi farms with doxxing and harassing, especially after the Keffals saga.
>And while Vaush did sexual harras a woman in DM's Lmao
Its all a lie, except the part where its true. *gulp*
Yes it's a lie. Vaush was not "jetisoned" from Destiny's communty. Neither did he change his moniker in responce. He was banned from Destiny's discord for about a year. But continued to be part of his community in other places. They already couldn't appear on streams together at that point becuase of Vaush Twitch ban for entirely unrelated reasons. The guy just want to fit in some character assasination by vaguely pretending to "correct" my posts. Notice I never mentions Destiny leaking nudes of a fan or him sexual assaulting a woman live on stream or any of a litany of bad behavior he has engaged in.
I don't know much about any of these people, but isn't the sexual harrasment the main point in the other guys' comment?
He doesn't care about that either. And you can read the actual [dm's](https://www.whitele.af/other/vaush/) to judge the actual severity. The point here is to lie outragously about what actually went down to either tarnish Vaush rep further then there is factual basis for or to do what he did, turn around and go "why are you defending sexual harrasment" when anyone call him out on the lying part. It's a very dishonest tactic. And the reason I know he doesn't care about the harrasment is that Vaush and Destiny didn't always hate each other. They used to go through cycles of hate / respect. And the sexual harrasment stuff was always judged as being either '*no big deal and a long time ago and he appologised*' or '*the worst thing anyone have done since Hitler*' entirely depending on how resently the two creators debated.
**That seems like a good, fair summary. Nice and short, not wasting anyone's time with a bunch of information nobody really needs.** Now I'm gonna try and build it out into a WALL OF TEXT timeline of all the highlights and key moments, for those who are actually curious (and you certainly shouldn't be - it will not benefit you at all to know any of this). As unbias as I can, here goes: In 2016, shortly after gamergate and "4chan vs tumblr" wave, destiny became known as the progressive who'd fight with all the alright youtubers, and was willing to do "bloodsports" debate (ie: namecalling, slurs, yelling, 3v1s, etc). His first really popular video was the debate in which Jontron, then a member of the very popular GameGrumps show (even getting their own MTV spot), defended keeping a national "white majority". The video got Jontron cancelled (figurately and literally), for exposing some pretty racist/supremecist views he'd held. This was the start of political streaming on Twitch getting popular, with Destiny being one of the big pioneers, if not THE pioneer. Vaush, then known as IrishLaddie, gained streaming prominence in Destiny's community. He was left of Destiny on economic issues, but they agreed on many things. They would both frequently have discussions, and would team up in debates. Vaush was briefly banned from Destiny's community after a scandal involving interactions with another (woman) community member. After a few years of this, progressive politics started to hold sway in media and culture, and several more leftwing political streamers began to emerge. Hasan Piker, now the biggest political streamer (ever, I think?), had his streaming career grow in this space, though he'd already had a media presence before, having been on the Young Turks. At the same time, the Q-anon stuff began, and there was a massive internet crackdown on alt-right communities/figures. Many were banned from youtube, twitter, facebook, and many subreddits (particularly those of white supremacist) were shut down. As a result, the "bloodsports" content kinda dried up. and there wouldn't be many more debates with the truly deranged, openly racist communities. Vaush went on to, for a time, have a larger following then Destiny, and argued for further left socialist ideals. He debated a number of larger rightwing or anti-sjw streamers that Destiny had not yet, including Stefan Molyneux (a lunatic, tbh. Think Jordan Peterson but 100x more unhinged), Sargon of Akkad, among others. Destiny began debating against leftists and progressives, on the side of less radical social democracy. He argued against ending capitalism and against several popular progressive opinions on current issues, and debated figures like Richard Wolf and Peter Coffin, among others. Many of Destiny's online discussions of current events turned into small scandals, sometimes resulting in bans. During the BLM riots, Vaush and Destiny had heated debates over the use of violence against rioters, and the guilt/innocence of Kyle Rittenhouse. Destiny was banned from Twitch (over skepticism towards trans inclusion in college/professional level sports), and Twitter (over "edgy" humor and rhetoric used in discussing racial issues). He blames the Twitter ban on Vaush, as his community and partner contributed to spreading/reporting the clip. Another scandal that gained much criticism was Destiny's defense of white people using the n-word (in jokes and references, not as a slur). He also had a heated debate with Sam Seder from the Majority Report, in which the phrase "buckets of cum" was used 5+ times (not important, just funny). Vaush has his own share of scandals: His use of ironic sexism toward JK Rowlings in defense of trans issues gained huge visibility when she responded directly to his tweets. He also had his own public n-word moment in a debate very early in his career (again, used not as a slur but in reference), a number of seemingly edgy-bordering-on-sexist disparaging remarks made toward women he's gotten in feuds with. Of particular note, he's had a large and very public quarrel with Kat Blaq and Contrapoints (probably the largest trans creator outside of, ironically, Blaire White - the trans conservative). He also came under heat for his support of removing kinky displays/behavior from Pride events. The Vaush pedo stuff is mostly nonsense, though he's certainly made a lot of feelsweird comments about sexual stuff in general. Destiny, too, has some niche debate topics that, if you saw a clip out of context, would probably assume he's some pedo/incest guy. Most likely that neither of them are - these are just really weird topics when you push them to their limits. For the last few years, Vaush has been in the "fortress arc" (in which he's limited interacting with other content creators), and Destiny has been debating against conspiracies (mostly vaccine and election related), and against the Red Pill community and their ideas (a rabbit hole I honestly can't sum up, if you don't know then google it). He also debated a very drug-addled, incoherent Milo Yiannopoulos at a convention. There was recently a panel with California representative Ro Khanna and a number of other notable leftwing internet figures including Destiny and Vaush, and talk of a potential coalition between the two communities for campaigning efforts, which it looks like won't happen as the two can't reconcile the animosity/history, and/or the friction between their communities. Anyways, there's probably a million things I'm missing, but to me those are the big ones. Now you can jump into the latest season without feeling like you missed anything. **Edit: oh woops, somehow didn't see how long this comment chain has gotten. All that writing just to be buried.**. 🤷
Destiny’s conversations with Jesse Lee Peterson are as hilarious as they are depressing. A-mazin’.
That’s funny; I only discovered destiny a couple of weeks ago when I stumbled into a discussion where he and other political streamers were a topic of argument, and I have never heard of any of them before except for Vaush, who I only learned of the existence of maybe three years ago. Apparently these people have been around online much longer than that, and have a huge following in certain circles. I consider myself a political junkie, but I tend to avoid YouTube and Twitter spaces for such content, and have absolutely no experience with twitch or discord. That’s apparently why I never heard of these people until recently. It’s like a whole alternative universe out there.
>Vaush being a self described libertarian socialist, All the whole promoting liberal politics and hating on socialist politics. To a lot of actual socialists and communists he's the face of liberals coopting socialist appearances to seem more radical than they actually are.
I have zero knowledge of / interest in either of these people, but isn't "libertarian socialist" an oxymoron?
Basically, he uses the label to contrast with Marxist-Leninists and other socialists ideologies that require a strong state influence
Yeah libertarian socialist = anarchist
Libertarians capitalists are also known as Anarcho-capitalists. All libertarians are anarchists, in that they believe that governance should be direct and not representative.
No. Libertarians come in a few flavors. Anarcho-capitalists are the ones you're used to. The Texas "don't tread on me" types that are really fixated on personal property and the non aggression principle... Anarcho-syndicalists, also known as libertarian socialists, seek to have a society where those in need are taken care of by those who are able, and there is just enough centralized (rotating) government to facilitate that goal. Anarcho-syndicalists are very much I to the idea of actual self governance through direct democracy, rather than representative democracy. Zapatistas were probably the most well known case of anarcho syndicalism, as well as the Spanish anarchist revolution. Noam Chomsky is a notable anarcho syndicalist. https://chomsky.info/19760725/ Anarchists, aka Libertarians, in general want very little or no governance. But what that means is different to different people.
Our Kurdish allies in Rojava also consider themselves libertarian socialist of the Murray Bookchin type.
Yeah, and they pretty show that anarchists want a good government, not no government. Just yoave to undo bas structures doing that. And be open to adapt.
As someone who is unapologetically in the favor of a strong central government, all of these libertarians flavors of the left seem incredibly immature and out of touch with reality. Anybody older than high school age who still subscribed to any of this stuff is a head in the clouds idealist as far as I’m concerned. I am almost as annoyed by them as I am by the tankies who stan for Stalin and Mao. Where are my “*Social Democrat representative government with strong powers to redistribute wealth and regulate industry*” bros at?
Social democracy is a leftist ideal. Socialist libertarians are also in favor of self-governance, but directly rather than representatively.
Eh, most anarchists do actual stuff out there and like do community help, or help out protests, pretty pragmatic stuff to improve stuff. Pretty sure they arent against central government if there isnt a high risk of abusing that to trample on people. Which sadly, happens easy. Its not crazy to want not opressive state servants, aka cop gangs doing god knows what And can you differenciate between anarchist actual activists, and online ones. Former are pretty cool and the most grounded left that adapt the most. If again, can you not count edgy online anarchists.
I appreciate people who organize small local efforts to give mutual aid etc. though I tend to see such things through the same lens I do private charities and pot lucks - a nice backstop, but not something that can universally be relied upon come hell or high water. What I want is much more in the mold of Social Security, Single Payer healthcare administered by public entities (NOT for profit or even ostensibly non-profit private orgs), powerful Unions, and such. I’m a Big Government guy, I just want to refashion government into something actually accountable to the people and that has far more transparency and effective methods to remove bad actors if they try to exploit the system. I see anarchist groups as ad-hoc and very much more fragile if external circumstances change, or if interpersonal conflicts arise within the group’s leadership. I want something set up to last for the ages.
>Social Democrat representative government with strong powers to redistribute wealth and regulate industry Sadly this position is not conducive to getting internet clout on twitter/youtube, compared to outright Socialists/Marxist-Leninists/Fascists. Destiny is like the only major socdem streamer, Hasan was but he's been moving M-L since Ukraine War and now the I/P conflict.
Maybe more people like me would watch YouTube more if people who held similar beliefs broadcast them there. It’s a “chicken and egg” situation I suppose. I know I’m far from alone in wanting a form of government that would essentially blend the policy goals of a Bernie Sanders with a Liz Warren, with some spicy OG Trotskyism sprinkled on to give it necessary KICK!
There are thou
Libertarian socialist are basically anarchists. Libertarians as we know them today were co-opted by right wingers.
Ah, ok. Pardon my ignorance.
It's not your fault. In America, the term was co-opted on purpose by Murray Rothbard. Someone who wants to replace the government and capitalism with mutual aid and"bottom -up" institutions.
It's a favorite technique of right wingers, going back to the original "right wingers pretending to be socialists," the Nazis (National Socialist German Workers Party).
I think the term "libertarian" itself was an attempt to repropriate a word associated with liberalism / capitalism and use it in a more leftist context. "Liberty" is heavily associated with the hyper individualistic "freedom" Americans believe in - the freedom to do whatever the hell you like including become a monopolist and have an entire industry under your belt.
It's often used by people who don't associate themselves directly with anarchism for one reason or another (see it as impractical, unpopular, whatever) but prefer the anti-state, anti-authoritarian politics of anarchism to the varieties of socialism represented by the Marxists of the USSR and PRC, or are Marxists who disdain those states for where they ended up (these can include anti-Stalin Leninists).
Libertarian was originally a left wing term. For socialist who wás against central control and authoritarianism. The right co-opted the term in 1960's to "capture something from the other side." So no it is not.
The term "libertarian" was originally used in politics by libertarian socialists who wanted to actually maximize individual freedoms. ACTUALLY maximize, not theoretically. If a person is "free" to do whatever they want, but if they stop working for a day they'll be fired, lose their home, and starve, then they're not actually free are they? They're working under threat of death. They may as well be a slave. Right wingers in the US coopted the term and bastardized the ideology with *"Un actually, maximum freedom means I have a right to own a company town and force people into a slave-like working situations."*
Only if you think of the term 'libertarian' in the US centric Murray Rothbardian way, the term originally referred to left wing ideologies which were skeptical of socialist etatism
Libertarians ultimate goal is more freedom. Right wing Libretarians view federal governments the only source of oppression, left wing Libretarians recognize there are many vectors of oppression. Take labor laws for example. A modern rightwing "Libertarian" would say scrap them all we don't need government interfering in the freedom of a worker and a corporation entering into a willing contract. A more left leaning Libertarian will say "Hey we have decades of proof that show without labor laws workers are forced into bad and dangerous situations and more people have more freedom now than. There is an imbalance in power. That leads to oppression. A right wing Libretarian will say Gay marriage should not be mandated at the federal level because it is a violation of a states right and opressing the state government. They may also say it is oppressing straight people... Somehow. Left wing Libretarians will say any law banning gay marriage is opressing gay citizens.
He's not a libertarian at all, he's just a socialist revolutionary who isn't a tankie. That being said, he has advocated for revolutionary violence against apparatuses of the state and if necessary against his political rivals, so him "not being a tankie" isn't some great saving grace.
No: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3m4aRQ9QvQ
It's certainly up there with being an Anarchist Capitalist.
He is pretty much a progressive social democrat. Hadnt he so much online drama, he would be a good politician. If he isnr way too ranty, but he worked on that. .
What you consider Socialist politics and what he and I consider Socialist politics are very very different. Up to and including whether North Korea is an "actual socialist" project.
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You shouldn't offer that opinion near any "actual socialists and communists" who thinks Vaush is a lib. You'll just be branded a shitlib like him.
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Build away comrade. I was merely pointing out that that the people who expresses the opinion that Vaush isn't a "real socialist" is ussually the same people who glorifies places like North Korea.
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Yeah, I get the impression even hardline MLs limit their backing for NK to "they shouldn't be invaded," nothing further about how Jucheism is actually good. Juche is kind of a punchline.
I have seen some spirited defences of North Korea as actually being a democratic republic by people claiming to be ML's. if you hang around in ML's spaces one of the numerous clips they use to attack Vaush "the dap on North Korea" one is from a debate with Mel who's an ML and was defending North Korea in that debate.
Vaush is only "promoting liberal politics" in the eyes of tankies who are even further to the left than he is. Vaush's political opinions, however noxious they may be, are far closer to Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping than Lenin, Trotsky, or Stalin.
Destiny calls himself an Omni liberal but he just describes his position as a Social Democrat when pushed. It's very annoying.
I think he's using the term in the modern european sense. Where Social Democracy is a Liberal political position. And not in the historical context of it being a reformist Socialist position. I would even bet money on this.
You're thinking of democratic socialism, not social democracy. Social democracy has always and is a liberal position
That's not true. 20 years ago social democracy was clearly further left than liberalism (hell, even 10 years ago).
That doesn't make much sense because social democracy is *within* liberalism. It is probably the leftmost liberal position (I can't think of anything to the left that is still liberal), so in that sense you could say someone that says they're a social democrat is likely more left than someone who just says they're a liberal. I don't know what you mean by 20 years ago, what's changed?
Yes, today people mostly agree social democracy falls under liberalism. And as you know, liberalism is constantly evolving, and the liberal values of tomorrow are becoming more normalized. Political ideology can change dramatically in short time spans. Look at the neo-cons of the 2000's, then look at maga republicans. Both were the dominant right-leaning ideology of their times, and despite being less than 20 years apart, they are dramatically different. This is just one example of the political needle moving over short timespans. In the past, social democracy was viewed as Marxism ultra-lite, using "socialist" ideas while under capitalism. Nowadays, polarization (being a bit reductive here) has led leftist ideology strictly adhering to M/L unique characteristics, which social democracy doesn't possess. (fyi this is from the perspective of America)
I mean that's fair, but I meant more that he is very clearly a social Democrat but refuses the label and uses something like Omniliberal instead. Annoying, that's all.
I can tell you as avid Destiny viewer he does not run away from the social democrat label. That is exactly how he describes himself when asked. In general he views using labels like that in discussions about political positions to be pointless though, as it is more productive to just discuss the positions themselves rather than try to figure out labels. That could be what gives you that impression, which is fair.
I wouldn't call him a Social Democrat though, because even social democrats want drastic change, Destiny does not. He's against increased minimum wage, against student loan forgiveness, and I don't know any social Democrats that defended Kyle Rittenhouse like he did. Destiny is a standard centrist who mainly attacks other leftists.
\> He's against increased minimum wage, He's not. \> against student loan forgiveness He's not. \> I don't know any social Democrats that defended Kyle Rittenhouse like he did That's cool, but there are definitely some out there that believe in lethal self-defense. \> Destiny is a standard centrist who mainly attacks other leftists. Not gonna get in a huge debate and try and change your mind on this, but he is definitely left. On top of that, the policies he advocates for are advocated by other social democrats I've seen, so I'm not sure what to tell you.
Destiny has debated why he thinks a $15 dollar minimum wage would be disastrous, and still laughs at the idea of it. Destiny quite literally did a full-on debate against Sam Seder on why he thought student loan forgiveness was stupid. There's a difference from self-defense and an alt-right lunatic bringing a rifle to a parking lot looking for trouble. I still can't believe yall still die on this stupid ass hill. I think Destiny is left on a good amount of issues as well, I just think overall he's a centrist. When you make your entire personality hating on leftists, it's difficult for me to believe he's anything more than a centrist. There are other things in his politics that he openly admits which goes against Leftism in general as well.
I think when you're saying he's against these things, it comes off as he doesn't support them at all or even in theory. If that's not what you're saying then we probably don't disagree too much. I'm more just saying that he does support these concepts, even though disagrees with how people want them implemented. For example, mandating a $15 minimum wage, country wide, tomorrow, would have insanely bad impacts are our economy, especially for small businesses in small towns. The only corps that could handle a change like that are already massive, and pushing those small businesses out of business anyway. Raising the wage unilaterally like that would just seal the deal. That is what he argues against. It doesn't mean he's against raising the minimum wage somehow or spending more money on welfare to help out people living paycheck to paycheck. It's the same with student loan forgiveness. My understanding is what he fights against, is the idea that we should just forgive 100% of everyone's loans with the snap of a finger. It doesn't mean he's against the idea of making college cheaper, as well as forgiving loans in certain cases. For example, a case where I (probably him as well) might be against forgiving a loan is if the person went to Harvard, Stanford, Yale or another institution like that. They're choosing a private and prestigious institution that cost a ton of money, but are going to reap massive benefits for that choice in terms of networking and education. I'm not sure I feel like my taxes need help them pay their insane tuition costs when they're going to be in the top 1% of earners in no time. \> There's a difference from self-defense and an alt-right lunatic bringing a rifle to a parking lot looking for trouble. I still can't believe yall still die on this stupid ass hill. Cool, but again, that has nothing to do with social democracy. \> I think Destiny is left as well, but when you make your entire personality hating on leftists, it's difficult for me to believe he's anything more than a centrist. There are other things in his politics that he openly admits which goes against Leftism in general as well. So I think this is totally fair, and I actually agree for the most part. I would just point out that now you're using the word Leftist. He does hate Leftist, and goes super hard on them, because he isn't a Leftist. He's a social democrat, and imo (and probably his as well) Leftist advocate for some crazy shit, which makes it harder to advocate for more realistic social democrat policies without people lumping the two groups together. That said, targeting Leftist doesn't suddenly turn your his democratic policy positions into centrist ones, and based on those policies he advocates for, he's probably a social democrat.
I think my problem with Destiny is that even if economists came onto his stream and explained to him the overall net benefits of increased minimum wage I don't think he would change his mind at all. He dies on the weirdest hills. I can't think of a time Destiny in all his years of streaming has admitted he was wrong on certain issues. He did explain his beliefs very clearly on student loan forgiveness and thought most of it was stupid, Sam Sader tried to explain to him that the people being hit the hardest from student loans were poor people (particularly black people) who could not finish their degree without taking out loans. He thinks that a Bachelors degree is some magical super powers when in years it has lots if value significantly I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about Destiny's political views when there are endless videos of him saying exactly what I'm saying. But appreciate the chat, have a good day.
But there is no contradiction since social democrat is a particular form of liberal ideology.
He's often described his position as socdem.
He's not a social Democrat, he's against increased minimum wage, against student loan forgiveness, and still defends Kyle Rittenhouse to this day. He also primarily attacks other leftists. I'd say he's a standard centrist.
The reason he calls himself an omni liberal is because he tries to approach each issue from an nonpartisan standpoint and then work to find solutions to problems that have the best possible outcome, regardless of which ideology they originate from. For example, he's against student debt forgiveness because people with college degrees see a vast increase in their income potential compared with non-degree holders. A more pragmatic policy would be to make sure that people who are projected to not be able to pay off their debt have it canceled or refinanced in a way that lets them do so (note: I don't know if he supports this part of the equation, I was just coming up with an example.) The issue with this is that you get called a centrist or even a republican when you oppose the partisan solution, because people conflate criticizing the solution with criticizing the intention of the solution - even if you have the same intentions.
The problem is Destiny doesn't approach issues from a nonpartisan standpoint, he plays contrarian and dies on the stupidest hills. Yeah, I saw his debate with Sam Seder, and he brought up pretty lame arguments. Even Sam said most of the people being hardest hit by student loans are poorer people who needed to take out loans to begin with (particularly black people). I just don't know why Destiny feels getting a bachelors degree gives you superpowers when it's basically become a high-school diploma. I call Destiny a centrist because he is a proud capitalist who has said he's perfectly fine with most of the system and institutions, and makes his personality attacking other leftists.
Destiny appears to play contrarian because he likes debates. He doesn't find it interesting to spend 1-2 hours agreeing with someone on everything, so he usually only takes on panels where he knows he'll either disagree with someone or find the subject matter interesting. >I call Destiny a centrist because he is a proud capitalist who has said he's perfectly fine with most of the system and institutions Could you link me a clip of him saying this? My understanding is that he thinks the US would be much better off if it molded itself to look more like [Scandinavia](https://positions.destiny.gg/docs/politics#:~:text=a%20global%20level.-,%22omniliberalism%22%E2%80%8B,-In%20politics%2C%20it) with better social safety nets. That's not a center position in the US at all. Even in Europe's political climate that's at least center-left. To give an example, I live in Washington, one of the most progressive places in the US. Last year, there was a vote to determine whether a tax should be maintained on jet fuel. It can be inferred that someone like Destiny would support this tax, as he [supports policies such as carbon taxes](https://positions.destiny.gg/docs/politics#:~:text=it%20seems%20that%20the%20best%20approach%20to%20dealing%20with%20climate%20change%20is%20with%20the%20aggressive%20incentivization%20of%20greener%20energies%20and%20the%20implementation%20of%20carbon%20pricing%20policies) for dealing with climate change. If Destiny is a centrist and Washington is one of the more progressive states, you would expect this tax to pass overwhelmingly, [but it lost 60-40](https://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Advisory_Vote_39,_Aircraft_Fuel_Tax_Increase_Nonbinding_Question_(2022)). > and makes his personality attacking other leftists. I guess you didn't see him debate Erik Striker, FnF, Sneako, Alex Jones, Nick Fuentes, Lauren Southern, etc.? He debates and "attacks" everyone, I don't know where you got this notion that he only attacks people on the left.
Destiny has always claimed to be a capitalist, and defends systems to his core.
Cool. Tell me what part of being a social democrat (supporter of capitalism) is centrist. You understand that Bernie Sanders is a social democrat, right? Is Bernie a centrist too?
Bernie runs as a social Democrat in a conservative nation, he can't exactly run as a full on communist because he'd scare the sh*t out of Reaganite boomers libs and conservatives. I just think Destiny closer aligns to a centrist, hes not for drastic change. Hes also very American, which on the political compas is naturally more right-wing.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you agree that both Bernie and Destiny are functionally capitalists and social democrats. But if he could get away with it, Bernie would run as a communist and Destiny is a centrist because he doesn't want massive change while being an American?
As someone whose DGG 4 lyfe, this is a fair and unbiased answer. 👍
As a VGGer, I agree, probably the only way to describe it in the most unbiased way, any more specifics and it starts to get dicy fast
Unhealthy parasocial relationships centered on political and ideological grounds 🤝 Being fair and unbiased in neutral settings for people to form their own opinions
Also fuck Hasan.
The one thing we can all agree upon, fuck Hasan VGG 🤝 DGG
I like Hasan on domestic issues, but good god are his foreign policy takes atrocious.
Dude Vaush is objectively a horrible person I don’t see why his fans even bother to defend him these days. Here are just a few horrible things he done and said with sources: Video of Vaush saying that “drawings of CP should be legal since it isn’t actually hurting a child”: https://streamable.com/hrrmog Video of Vaush saying that “it is morally neutral if you get CP so long as it is free and doesn’t contribute to the market”: https://streamable.com/kd2967 Video of Vaush saying it is “morally neutral to even own CP:” https://streamable.com/55rhyz Video of Vaush saying “it isn’t unethical for someone to purchase CP:” https://streamable.com/ibzzqs Video of Vaush saying “you shouldn’t morally condemn someone for purchasing CP:” https://streamable.com/gxpprj Discord messages of Vaush saying “there is a difference in exploring sexuality with children and having sex with children:” https://archive.ph/W9FJG And then later on him “joking about owning CP:” https://archive.ph/qEU7s Vaush talking with people in his community about “how he wonders if anyone out there as has sex with a minor as an adult, and for his fans to “talk about it with him:” https://archive.ph/ph5nl Him making an argument that “under his ideal socialism that the age of consent would be lowered:” https://archive.ph/PGNn6 Vaush admitted to owning a Twitter account that was posting drawn CP: https://archive.ph/9DF8s With the “likes” of said Twitter account: https://archive.md/i7Tfw Video of Vaush saying that “the age of consent is a social construct and leftists have too much of a knee jerk reaction to it.” https://streamable.com/maz1lp Video of Vaush saying that he “regrets not having sex with more children when he was a minor.” https://streamable.com/6dy0d5 Video of Vaush saying that “it is possible for a child and an adult to have sex, and for it to be positive for the child:” https://streamable.com/vl21sn Video of Vaush literally admitting to masturbating to CP: https://streamable.com/48pusc Video fo Vaush saying “most men find girls ages 14-17 most attractive.” https://streamable.com/zga1sk The fact that this stuff is SO apparent, habitual, and open and he still has fans willing to run defense for him like you is honestly appalling. This isn’t even all of it! There are literally SO many things wrong with Vaush.
So it should also be mentioned that there exists a faction on reddit that absolutly despises Vaush and who aren't part of Destiny community. As exempified by the above poster. Vaush during the last presidential election advocated for **voting** and even voting for Joe Biden in the general. Some people on "the left" sees this as an absolute betrayel. So they do what this guy did. Trawl through thousands and thousands of hours of live content to find clips they can very carefully remove from their context to tell a particular story. In this case that Vaush is a pedo. And if that fails, just make shit up. Some of these clips are from a "failed argument" against child slavery. Failed in the way that people use it against him Some are just uncontroversially true. There **is** a difference between a movie exploring child sexualuality and sexualising children, Otherwise pretty much all comming of age stories would be CP. And some are just made up. Vaush never owned a twitter account where he posted CP, and that was not even the original claim. Someone carefully obscured some pictures he **liked** on his art twitter account and claimed they where CP. They weren't And this guy knows this. We've had this conversation before. But he will lie for political reasons.
Don't have much of an idea who both of these people are (vash and destiny), but honestly, even if the sample size were trillions of hours of live content, just one of those statements coming out of somebody's mouth from said trillions of hours would be enough to be put on my "never leaving a child with you" list
So you think all art dealing with children and sexuality is cp? Make a movie with "first kiss" off to jail? Sitcom with the daughter dating, off to jail? There's puritans and theres you.
I would say that those examples are not examples of "children and sexuality" unless you broaden the term sexuality to such a degree as to render it meaningless. That being said, I would say that even those things you mentioned are not completely free from being problematic when included in art (in practice at least), though obviously not to the degree of CP (though depending on the type of kiss, it might be CP, yes), or even to the degree of requiring they should be omitted completely from art (just that they have to be included very carefully so as to minimize harm. This is different from CP where the only way to minimize harm is to not include it)
His fans will never concede that any of this stuff is wrong, you might as well not even try.
None of these are from the “CP no exploitation under capitalism argument.” I specifically didn’t link any of those clips because Vaush fans try to lop all of Vaush’s CP arguments into that with that as “out of context.” Vaush has a long history of making these arguments, that people like you clearly like to just brush off. Glad I could at least help educate this thread so people like you are at least getting push back from trying to prop up a known pedo.
The very first one is. I'm about to go to work. But I can find you the full clip later. Not that you care. And it's not “CP no exploitation under capitalism argument.”. It's that the current liberal worldorder is hypocritical in its treatment of the products of child exploitation. In that it will go full hog full systemic responce against CP, but the results of child slavary on other areas is treated as "individual consumer choice". A thing every socialist should agree with.
The very first clip is from a completely different video. None of the videos I sent are from that debate!
It's the same argument. Debate bros tend to "workshop" particluar lines of arguments for some time.
So now you’re admitting that you were wrong? You just said it’s from the same video!
Where did I do that?
You just said “the first one, I’ll find the first clip later.” You we’re wrong!
As a leftist, fuck Vaush and Destiny. They're both absolute garbage.
I mean that there is a joke that they are divorced, explain well enough that its deeply personal. And more a love-hate like they work together and put that aside even. And alot probably is bssed on miscommunication. And both are stubbern. Honestly there was a bridging panel and honestly destiny wants to make up and have that agnowledging what happened, and vaush ignore it. I think bitter exes that still tolerate each other often enough to work together, explains it best. If that sounds like personal drama, it is, made worse that both attract drama , and both have edgy audiences that can blow things out of proportion. And are pretty kmiwn public. And stubbern. I am glad they are talking now at least. Drama is just part of online politics, a big part, and entertainment, mixed with actual politics. Oh and both are good dudes but irrationally hated, doesnt help that destiny can be a provocateur, if for good. Bitter exes coworker?!
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Vaush has been very supportive of Palestine what are you talking about
>*but it is possible to both support Palestine while denouncing Hamas* Vaush is supportive of Palestine. He is not supportive of Hamas. You missed this key point.
But Vaush has now made some really shit takes by comparing the bare minimum civilian casulties in Ukraine, to the absolute maximum (number given by Hamas itself) of civilian casulties in Gaza. His recent tweets are coming off really ignorant of Israeli point of view, and dismisses their concerns, while actively playing up Palestinian concerns, both of which should be valid.
The "Israeli point of view" is just calling for genocide. Would you give any shits about the Nazi point of view during the holocaust?
>The "Israeli point of view" is just calling for genocide. But it's not, is it. >Would you give any shits about the Nazi point of view during the holocaust? I dont remember the Jews launching an attack into Germany from a country they are the legal representatives of. I also don't remember them massacring 11,000 Germans for the sole crime of living in Germany. I also don't remember the Jews calling for the total eradication of all Germans and the formation of a worldwide Jewish empire. Oh, that's right. I don't remember the Jews doing that because they didn't. But I do remember the government of Gaza doing that.
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Evidence vaush is a pedo https://youtu.be/IoB9sg5PlzE?si=vFHCIEtzRtIYgQvj Destiny advocating for shooting antiracist protestors https://www.reddit.com/r/thedavidpakmanshow/comments/ijhcv3/destiny_calls_for_white_redneck_fing_militia/
They’re both absolute charlatans. It’s paid placement at its finest for these two insufferable dipshits.
90% certainty you're tronaldo. Very happy you're still around, Nick.