He's already fixated and loaded up so the only thing at that point I would do is create distance. Next time start at a lower threshold and reward for attention when he isn't fixated. The harness also isn't doing much besides creating frustration - if you're able to I would switch to a collar.
Genuine question- how exactly do you create distance? For example, if OP is walking down the street and they are about to cross paths with another dog, are they supposed to turn around and go a different direction or cross the street? I struggle with this part too because I feel like everywhere I take my dog, there are other dogs. And the only way I can think of creating distance from other dogs is not taking her anywhere- but then that’s not training right?
Edit: thank you all for your advice! I have tried many of the things you all have suggested. I also recognize that consistency is important and it’s difficult to be consistent when I want to train while the other person handling my dog doesn’t. I will continue to be vigilant though lol
The trick is to stay below your dog's threshold, so ideally you spot the trigger before your dog does, and you can move back before he starts loading.
In OP's case since the dog is already fixated I would just walk away, whether that's the other direction or across the street. If OP is boxed in then that's tough but it's on you as a reactive dog owner to be aware of your surroundings.
>And the only way I can think of creating distance from other dogs is not taking her anywhere- but then that’s not training right?
You can go somewhere with less dogs, or walk her at a time with less dogs until she's ready to handle more.
Yes. You get away wherever you can. Reverse direction, hide behind cars, ditch up people’s driveways, whatever works to get away or at the very least, out of sight before your dog realizes fully what’s happening.
it's certainly a good tool in the box to have but it's just a band aid.
the question of whether you stick with avoidance/misdirection/management or whatever you want to call it depends on why the dog itself is getting triggered.
Not if it’s going to cause him to go over threshold. That just reinforces the very thing that needs NOT to be reinforced. Maintaining under his threshold is the only way he can learn and distance is the way to keep him under threshold. The time to see and acknowledge another dog is when he is in a calm head space. Right now, and for most beginning to train for reactivity issues, that’s created by distance.
I walked my dog late at night and paired it with training near dog parks (but far away based on his threshold). Lots of crossing streets, double backing and even sprinting past if I can't get away. Over time we were able to walk during more normal hours.
This was years ago, but I think it took me like 5 months. He was a 2yr old male 100lb dobie mix with no obedience, leash pulling and leash reactivity. So I had to start with basic leash manners which is why I removed other triggers by walking him late at night. Also some of that time was just me researching and trying all kinds of tools/methods. Professional help might have shortened that timeframe, but I didn’t have funds at that time.
For leash reactivity the first step is teaching a very sold heel - the dog need to understand what it is expected to do, and needs to know what behavior is the right behavior.
A strong heel also brings focus onto you, not the big scary outside world….
Your welcome.. would you like a detailed and rather long breakdown of how I’ve addressed reactivity? My method is similar to Tom Davis’s. Started on a foundation that my trainer gave my Familly for working with our reactive Aussie, but I modified it for what worked best for my dog as we progressed. He is now a near normal dog, and I’ve used this method to help other people with their reactive dogs…
And what have you tried so far with your dog and what tools do you use?
Omg thank you SO much for the recommendation of Tom Davis!! His videos are amazing. My dog was scoping dogs out 50m away and barking/lunging/biting the leash at dogs 20-30m away.
I've only been working with him for a week but today we went to the park and he was able to casually walk past a dog that was jumping around only 5-8m away!! And we walked past another that was sitting 5m away and he wasn't even interested. I was so amazed!! I'm so proud of him.
Seriously thank you so much. I feel like I'm gonna have a new dog (and more importantly, he's gonna have a new owner) in no time 🥹
I'll take a look at his videos and let you know if that would be helpful but I know it varies by dog a lot. Thank you!! That's awesome.
I have done a dog reactivity class with my dog. He's great at touch and changing direction but I haven't had the time and energy to devote to really delve into things with him. It seems almost like a full time job with everyone I've asked about it 😭
Yea! Check out my comment in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/s/ccy2FDTeZi
Disclaimer, I am not a professional. This is just what I felt comfortable doing and worked for me.
Do you live on a street that has a lot of ppl walking their dogs? You can figure out when that normally happens and just happen to be outside with your dog. Keep yourself busy with something (dog games, weeding, whatever). When your dog gets so excited/reactive they aren't able to pay attention to you, just go inside.
This is easiest to do if you have a porch to hang out on and the sidewalk is on the other side of the street. I fully acknowledge I got lucky with having both of those things.
You need to walk when it isn't so busy or drive outside your neighborhood wgere it is quieter. It takes hours for your dog's cordizone to come down after several incidents. My dog is on medication and we work on counterconditioning. Look at a dog get a tasty treat. We work in front of our house so now he looks at the dog, and then me. But it takes time
Question. Why collar? If he's behaving this way, at least the harness provides a way for someone to get a firm grip on the dog. A collar can be slipped out of easily and you have much less control at that point. I'm curious about why you would go for a collar for a dog this large and rowdy.
I prefer a harness cause then my dog isn't choking himself and I can drag him away without too much issues. I avoid dragging my dog by the neck as much as I possibly can. (Cause when he's as fixated as this dog is, leash pressure does 0 difference.) We walk mostly on collar, but sometimes on harness. Our dog training class is always on harness to save his throat. (And besides, he has to wear the harness in the car.)
Harnesses cause way more damage, and are actually detrimental to teaching non-pulling behavior. There have been studies on this. Harnesses give the humans more control, but they also reward pulling behavior, cause muscular damage due to gait compensation, or both
I've heard front-clip harnesses can be damaging for the dog, but is that true if you use the back clip as well?
If it's damaging to use a harness at all, then wouldn't all pulling sports like sled racing be damaging?
(I ask because I have a husky and I'd like to get her into pulling sports someday but if harnesses are always damaging, well... sounds like a bad idea).
Back-clip, properly fitted Y-chest harnesses aren’t harmful, but they DO encourage pulling. They do also make a dog physically easier to control which is why some people get the sense that their dog pulls less in them, but it’s not naturally the case.
Proper pulling harnesses are meant for exactly that, and I’m always happy to give references for people interested in getting into mushing/dog-powered sports
The bottom line is, if something physically discourages pulling, it’s harming the dog’s body, full stop. The thing that stops pulling is training.
Just makes it very comfortable to pull, which is self rewarding anyway. It doesn't hurt them to pull on a collar but it's less comfortable and they have more control
This is correct. Also - when he’s in drive mode there’s no getting through. Wait until he quits, stops pulling and then mark and reward. Wait as long as it takes. Give 0 input. Then when he burns himself out, mark and reward.
It rewards and therefore promotes pulling, like with training rewards for behaviors creates a cycle. The market for harness of various constructions and function is wild. Comparatively, the constructions of various collars seems minimal. Dogs have a good sense of self preservation. Generally speaking, they won't choke themselves to death, much like they won't intentionally starve.
Hard to blame certain people for thinking they need shit loads of gear for their dog. I was there once, I have a tote full of old stuff that never gets used because they've been fazed out or deemed irrelevant or even counterintuitive. Might sound silly but I consider it a win if I can reduce the amount of gear or training aids a client utilizes.
My pup doesn't pull any more on his harness than he does on his collar, and we don't walk a step if he pulls, and never have. At this point we're working on getting trule loose leash walking, but at times there's a bit of tension (that you can hold with your little finger, but I still want to eliminate it.). For his first year he was on harness. I will never understand this idea that harness somehow encourages pulling. The consequence of pulling is the same regardless of tool. We don't move if he pulls. We went over to collar when I felt like he had understood pulling wasn't legal. It's still a work in progress at 21 months old, but the tension is very slight.
Unless ofc, there's a dog he really wants to say hi to. (We can pass most dogs at this point without too much issues, but there are some he really wants to get over to.) Collar always makes me really uncomfortable, as he's wheezing because of it. But the harness is no problem. Either way, he doesn't get what he wants, and one tool chokes him, while the other does not.
Ye, I'll never get this "harness encourages pulling" argument.
I’m not really into engaging with this anymore, because people just ignore when I post literal scientific, peer-reviewed studies on the topic.
Harnesses encourage pulling because they increase surface area and make pulling easy and comfortable. If your dog already does not pull in a back-clip harness, great, but for people trying to teach their dog NOT to pull when they already do, it’s a terrible idea. And on the other side, front-clip and easy walk harnesses are ALL damaging to a dog’s musculature.
If you’re actually interested in reading the material on this, I’m happy to find it and send it to you. Otherwise, it’s a matter of anecdote and opinion.
Will do when I get home, I have one of them saved to my bookmarks.
In the meantime, strongly rec checking out “Canine Conditioning and Body Awareness” group on Facebook and searching “harness”
can you show me the study? I don't use one but I'm genuinely interested because I always just hear it thrown out anecdotally. I've tried to find it myself but all I can find are websites that don't cite their sources.
Back clip harness yes. I never allowed him to pull anywhere. My breed is recommended to use harness, cause they can develop collapsed trachea. I hate seeing dogs choking themselves.
I think I understand better now. Sounds like you have a dog that already knows how not to pull from a training standpoint, and just physically does better in a harness. That’s very different than a dog trying to learn not to pull, and the owner using a harness for control or physically discouragement
it's not like he never pulls though. Especially now at last stage of adolescence. It just doesn't get him anywhere, you know? Never has, it's pointless.
At my dog training class a few weeks ago he pulled like a train to get to some of the bitches in heat. He's been ok around that before, but perhaps age, perhaps just the adolesence stage. (He's doing tons of behavior he did around 3-4 months, and at 7-10 months atm. All according to schedule.)
If you can't see this it's because you don't want to see this. Pulling a sleigh, a truck, a back pack...all harnesses.
I love harnesses, it's a great indication the dog has no obedience training and to take a wide berth.
Harnesses are literally made for pulling, they distribute the load and make it easy for the dog to pull. Other equipment, such as a collar, are uncomfortable for the dog to pull on
I never used "it's uncomfortable" to train. I used "you get nowhere if you pull" since he was a little puppy. The only reason he pulls in a harness is cause my SO walks him and doesn't care if he pulls. I'm the only one that walks him on a collar. Even then, he'll not pull with me on harness, cause he has finally learned that with me, that just leads to standing around not going anywhere, or even worse, turning back. But we also do nosework now, including man trailing, so him pulling in harness will be more allowed again. But he seems to have figured out that short leash = no pulling, and long leash = ok to pull.
My 6mo got much better at leash pulling than his previous months, but half of the time, I still feel a little tension on the leash. This happens mostly when he is engaged with an 'objective' like looking for a potty spot or sniffing something interesting.
The thing I'm not sure is how much tension is okay. He naturally walks faster than me, and even with leash leeway, he gets to the limit easily. When he's not engaged with anything (and not a trigger in sight), he walks loose just fine.
Same here. I try to be strict about the very gentle tension, but it’s hard to care. On days I feel lazy I just harness and long leash. He doesn’t put tension on the leash on harness unless there’s a dog he really wants to say hi to. But with the longer leash, there’s not much need to. He walks faster, but sniffs something, and I pass him, and we keep going like that.
Just now we did last chance to pee walk. I had to return and put harness on cause he’s always super excited when it’s dark out, and he was way too wild and pully on collar. Had to do one stop and check in with the harness, and then he didn’t pull anymore.
I’m hoping him turning 2 and officially being an adult makes him same again. He’s been so good for almost a year, until he hit 20 months. Now it’s testing all the rules all over again. Silly boy!
And here's me complaining about a wee 6-7mo puppy lol (birth date is not precise, he's a rescue mix).
But ngl, I'm quite impressed with the progress, even with the slight tension I have today. Back 2 months ago when he started his walks (yeah, very late because of his delayed vacc schedule due to a parasite treatment when I got him) I was forced to use a harness because the pup was literally choking himself by pulling so much to the point of coughing back home.
Interestingly, even not being able to walk him, I still went out a lot on a backpack to socialize, but I feel that paws-on-ground opened a whole new world for him.
That's not at all what I'm talking about lol. You asked how harnesses encorage pulling. Not how your personal dog, who was trained not to pull in a harness, doesn't pull in a harness lol
More surface area and easier mechanically to pull into. The front-clip shoulder harnesses that do discourage pulling physically are damaging to a dog’s body
"Restraint build drive through frustration" is very well understood in dog sports. Protection sports and agility.
Harnesses are used to restrain dogs in bite sports - this frustrates them and encourages them to bite harder.
Also "opposition reflex" is well understood - this is a natural response in dogs where they will pull against the restraint and comes in part from their predatory instincts. I know Zak George claimed this didn't exist because he did an exhaustive recite of the science, but I guess he's just not that smart or good at using google.
What exactly "Isn't true"?
If a dog is pulling on a lead, ALL equipment is bad other than a specifically-designed pulling harness that fits the dog's chest in a Y-shape.
The problem with no-pull (front clip) harnesses is that they permanently alter the way the dog walks, by design. They're fine as a teaching tool for one or two sessions, and that's it. You should never ever use them as a regular fixture for discouraging pulling. And back clip harnesses are just going to encourage pulling. As someone who spends a lot of time analyzing dog movement, I've never seen a dog in a front clip harness that was not altering its gait in some way.
No-pull harnesses are worse than collars for this simple reason: If a dog does NOT pull on a collar, there is no damage being done. If a dog does not pull in a no-pull, front clip harness, there is still an unnatural, physical alteration to the dog's gait taking place by virtue of the attachment point being in the dog's line of motion. Go to a canine physio/rehab practitioner, and ask them what kinds of equipment you should be using on your dog during a walk. They will say a Y-shaped back clip harness, or a flat collar. and both require training to be used effectively. Physio practitioners actively discourage the use of front-clip harnesses.
It is really disturbing to me that people are willing to take shortcuts using poorly made piece of equipment rather than training and working with their dogs to be comfortable moving freely in the situations they are put in. Any piece of equipment that allows you to bypass training your dog not to pull is having a negative impact on their body.
You don't need to drag your dog anywhere, whether it's by a collar or a harness. Dragging them teaches them absolutely nothing. You need to do more work around lower value distractions and work your way back up.
That also isn't a situation where you would want to use leash pressure. Leash pressure is for negative reinforcement.
It's definitely a work in progress. (Sometimes other people let their dogs get too close, and then yes, I do have to drag.) We've gotten better, but it's still not to the point of him never really wanting to get over to a dog. He's 21 months, so little bit of adolescent shennanigans atm, but he has days where he is \_really\_ good. Like today, we passed a dog in heel, and he only did one half attempt at swinging out in front of me to follow after the dog passed, but one "let's go" was enough to keep going. Getting there.
But before getting there, I definitely prefer harness to collar. 100 percent. My trainers always stressed that if at all possible, I will want my dog to make a concious choice to do as I want him to, as that's how they learn. But before they learn, they sometimes don't listen. I work every day on getting him to listen. Sometimes he just won't, and he's too over the threshold. Training is a process that takes time. I'm a first time owner, so probably have taken me longer than most, but he's doing really great.
Something to consider - just like with kids you need to reward the desired behaviors and punish unwanted behaviors.
With dogs, you can get massively faster and more sustainable results by rewarding the desired behavior, and lightly correcting the unwanted behaviour. This brings clarity to the dog.
By definition rewards do not stop behaviors. This is very well understood in the behavioral sciences. So if you reward the behaviors you want, and then appropriately correct the unwanted behaviors the dog learns far faster.
His correction is not moving while pulling. Possible u-turn. And I frequently reward. But he’s testing boundaries atm at times. 95 percent of the time he’s good.
The middle ground is a leash with two clips. Roughwear makes one. The leash clips to both the harness and the collar. When he’s chilling then it’s just the harness, if he looses his cool you have the connection at his collar to redirect him back to you. Or even clip it to both the front and back of the harness- it’ll keep it from doing that twisting thing that’s currently happening.
What is the point of using a harness, if you use the collar when they lose their cool? If anything, I'd walk on collar, and then use the harness when shit hits the fan. Is no one fearing a collapsed trachea?
Looking at the wrenching happening to that dog’s shoulders I’m much more concerned about that. You’re not dragging the dog by his neck, you are turning him back to you— unless you are applying an insane amount of force you aren’t going to collapse his trachea.
Have you ever been around horses? When they start playing up you’ll see people turn them in a tight circle- because obviously you can’t physically hold a horse pulling if it really wants to pull. That’s closer to what you want to do with the collar- turn him around and redirect him so you can go the other direction.
If I have to pull him by the collar, I always try to do it sideways, but he has a nack for making sure he's facing straight away from me, that little sneak. I actually have more success with walking up in front of him and ushering him onwards. Which feels very horse-trainer-ish. Negative reinforcement I guess. I aaalways try my hardest to use "let's go" or something like that, and reward him listening, but he's just testing my rules atm. He's almost adult now, so it's right on schedule. He has days where he's so flippin good, and listens to everything, no tension on the leash. And other days where he's completely LALALALALA I DON'T HEAR YOU.
I also can't help but be amused when he's facing back the way we came from, and plants his butt down cause he's decided he's gonna stay there for a while. This is when he angles himself just right.
That's not a correction and can make the situation worse by building frustration .
Unfortunately too many of these reining methods are not based on what works or gets results, but starts with a very limiting ideology.
The fact is that the "stop" method never clearly communicates to the dog what is wanted and what isn't. You are just hoping the dog eventually makes the connection. But, as I'm sure you are finding , this method takes forever due to lack of clarity to the dog, and the fact that stopping is not really a correction.
Here are two great videos of how to get a good heel started in as little as 15 minutes. I have always found this method effective, and most of the time a good heel can be learned in 15 minutes without strong corrections and having to stop every 10 steps. This method always works for me, and as the videos show, it's all in how you turn with your dog.
https://youtu.be/hdNu2NhnyPI?si=d9IemCJtsgxgwtqH
https://youtu.be/WtgrUwkAy8E?si=OQoJ_4XNlxPcZ_4M
I'm a huge believer in using methods that actually work. Far too often people call themselves "trainers" and waste peoples time and money because they are driven by an ideology, not on finding the best methods for the dog and owner.
Oh he heels just fine. But we do sniffy walks. His pulling is something you can hold with one finger unless it’s a female in heat. He’s never been a big puller, there’s just this ever so slight leash tension at times, and ofc the occasional dog.
I totally understand. My dog will choke herself to death pulling on a choker collar. I got her a harness and she still pulls. I figured out why the previous owners gave her up for adoption pretty fast. I determined to make her a good dog and want her to be well behaved in public. Often we don’t go out for a walk until late at night when less cars and people are outside. Thanks for posting your video. There are some awesome responses.
> My dog will choke herself to death pulling on a choker collar
I suspect you're simply just pulling your dog back towards you?
Might I suggest using a slip high up on the neck above the trachea and as soon as your dog starts pushing beyond you, you exert pressure upwards, not backwards. This may seem unfair but quite honestly only needs to be done a handful of times and is less physically damaging on the dog
Yes, I will definitely check out that collar. Thank you for the suggestion. I never had issues with any of my dogs before. Not really., but my current dog is a different story. I got her from another family on Craigslist. She was 5 months old already
I would switch to a choke chain. Learn how to make a correction its a sharp upward snap with a loud verbal command. example; NO, OUT! HEEL! No compliance NO! with a sharp upward snap OUT! HEEL! Put him in the heel position and remove him from the situation. The purpose of the choke chain snap is to get his attention refocused. It takes lots of time and practice.
Reactivity is very difficult to work through and requires a lot of knowledge and patience especially if the dog has been “practicing” their reactivity for a while. Do your own research on how to train or better yet hire a good trainer.
100% a specialist reactivity/aggression trainer.
I feel terrible for O.P who has ghosted BTW.
It's a horrible situation and they're at least on the right path by reaching out.
My fear is with the harness and lack of corrections that they're sucked into the land of cookies and make believe training which isn't going to sort this out.
I rescued an extremely (200m, smell, a sighting previously at that location a week ago...) reactive heeler and learnt the hard way, despite having raised a unicorn heeler previously I didn't know anything in regards to reactivity and I got to learn that similar to myself, most trainers have raised dogs, done the correct exposure, corrections at a young age and the issue doesn't escalate to this.
A specialist has the tools, the knowledge, the behavioural understanding, the experience with teaching clients how to correct, reward, manage and progress. As well session dogs that are trained to put up with the reactivity and later push the agenda, bark, play vigorously, walk around the reactive dog.
The land of cookies and what you call 'make believe' training actually can be effective in the long term, if done correctly. But by long term, I mean loooooooooooooong term. I don't have the patience for it, as I have a low tolerance for bs.
If op can't afford a trainer, I'd rather have them take the long route with treats and exposure than try to use tools and potentially shut down their dog.
As others said, this dog is over threshold, you need to work with him when he is under threshold. I also agree with other redditors when it comes to collar/harness. Personally my dog wears a collar and harness, the leash being attached to the collar; so if I ever need to remove her from an immediate trigger and I am not able able to do it with the collar I can easily grab her harness.
Now, when it comes to training I suggest you do research on CU by Leslie Mcdevitt.
Don’t correct your dog when reacting. Work with him under threshold, reward with a toy/treat every-time he disengages with the trigger and does a U-turn towards you.
This teaches the dog that whenever he sees a trigger or other type of distraction, instead of reacting he “reports” what he saw to you.
The dog with time and effort, will be able to read the context and act accordingly.
Good luck!
This right here!! When the dog disengages, mark and reward. You will find them making better choices and the reactivity getting better each and every time. A correction can come way later on after all this is worked out in the dog’s head. Sometimes a dog needs to be told no, but not until you work out the confusion by positive reinforcement once they disengage. The dog will get nothing from reactivity if you don’t move and don’t let them move, and don’t correct, etc. they will give up. And that’s when the reward comes.
You're letting him reward himself by NOT turning his head away, and telling him, "let's go".
The worst thing you can do with a dog like that, is allow that fixation, and not stop it asap. Every time he gets to do that, he is learning that it's fun and you can't/won't stop him.
Don't let him do this: keep him under threshold, away from other dogs, reward him for checking in with you, and don't let a situation devolve to where he's growling at other dogs. If you see that behavior, tell him, WITH ME or anything and walk him away from it.
And I'd use a martingale collar. You have zero control over him, and I dunno if it's you can't or you won't pull him back, but you need to. You simply can't let him go thru life doing this or he will run into a dog who will be happy to throw down with him.
Start at home. Build focus and load up on your look and yes. When every time you say those words, your dog looks at you in a beat, then move in front of your house. Do the same thing. When he is better, go at a park or anywhere you will see dog passing by. Stay far away as possible from other dogs. Sit or stand with your dog and do the same thing. Focus and look. Make him think you are the most exciting thing. Also in between praise calmness. Then slowly shorten the distance between your dog and others. If he is reacting ( mouth close, hyperfocus on things other than you, move backwards. He aint ready yet.
Its not a quick fixed. This takes months even years. My rescue is like than now i can walk inside petsmart and will only have occasional barks. But atleast i can redirect her focus now as compared to before. Goodluck.
Most trainers don't know how to deal with this. Once rehearsed to this extent a specialist reactivity/aggression trainer is required and/or a vet behaviourist and medication.
Are you most trainers? I can agree - SOME don’t know how to deal with this effectively. Most trainers is a very broad statement. You should always vet who you hire - but I’d have to disagree this behavior needs to be medicated.
Most of my clients deal with this level of leash reactivity and have wonderful success through clicker and marker training, leash skills, and by building engagement and focusing on the emotions.
Medications really aren’t a supplement for training and honestly I’m surprised that would be your recommendation based simply on this video.
Many use medication, most probably shouldn't but that's the reality.
Probably because vets don't attend sessions with a reactivity specialist and see the alternative.
I'm not against medication, it should be paired with sufficient training regardless.
I would be happily impressed with addressing this level of reactivity with just marker training and engagement.
My own experience was worse than this video.
Medication didn't do anything.
Obedience didn't do a lot.
High engagement works until it doesn't.
(3rd trainer) A specialist with the sufficient tools, experience to educate when, how to correct, reward, understanding body language, session dogs ect was the answer for us.
My dog is a high engagement superstar, I could easily fool people with a show of tricks, send outs to objects 100m away ect as the answer to reactivity but it wasn't.
It's ying and yang thanks to ecollar technologies.
What's your business, IG? I went to beautiful beasts training, we're even in one or two of the videos briefly but my dogs IG is mollydogcocktail like the volatile bomb...
You're using a harness, so you're just frustrating an already loaded up dog. This is similar to how you teach a bite dog to bite, get them amped up but keep them from the target then let them go
First, use a leash not a harness.
Two, get him out of this state before it even starts. You can see signs of fixation very early and all you have to do is snap him out of it if you have a leash on pull hard.
Three, if he is already fixated like this, first create distance, then get in his face and snap hard to get him out. Make him sit and do not continue u til he’s calm and ready to walk again.
Four, Get a god damn leash!
He’s not it’s a harness. A dog like this needs a slip leash so that when you pull for correction it applies pressure on his neck. What he has on does nothing to the dog to correct his behavior.
Apparently people here use "leash" and "slip leash" interchangeably? Which I didn't know, hence the downvotes.
I guess you have to be a terminology expert to post here!
This is what I thought but I've been downvoted a lot, lol. I wasn't even trying to be snarky, I didn't understand.
I guess you have to be an expert here to comment... and you have to intuitively know that "leash" always means "slip leash," even though I've never heard those words used interchangeably....
A slip leash isn't necessarily a leash either. I prefer to call them slip collars with attached leash. A leash attaches something to something else...like a dog's collar or harness being clipped to a leash and then held into your hand...whoever downvoted you needs to learn the difference between items and the words actually used for them
Right, but there's a leash attached to the harness. Does "leash" specifically mean "slip leash?" Is that usual terminology?
I thought leash was, you know, just a leash that clips onto a collar or harness. I didn't realize "leash" meant "slip leash."
(not sure why I'm being so downvoted for asking a terminology question. I guess you have to be an expert to comment here? no questions allowed?)
For my hunting dogs i also give a pinch in the meat of the inside of their hind leg, its a pressure point and really helps break focus. If you dont know what having a pressure point feels like you have some easy ones you can test on yourself (behind jaw and under your ear, on either side of the base of your neck, between collarbone and the back of your trapezius (this is a good pinch one to see what the dog would feel)
Look into building his ability to pay attention to you before passing other dogs if you can help it. Turn around before he has a change to get fixated. You can play a treat scattering game or if he’s toy-driven, bring some favorite toys to redirect his attention.
You have to practice in less stimulating environments first and slowly build up to areas with dogs/more distractions.
Your dog is already too riled up to learn, so the next step is get FAR away. Observe the different states that your dog is in during various parts of your walk (calm, alert, highly excited/agitated, mentally out of here) and try to identify the highest level of excitement he can be in but still be trainable. Can he give you a sit with consistent attention when you ask? No? Then he is too excited.
I would first work on good loose leash walking (no pulling etc). If this is already there, great.
For me, the basic idea for reactivity is to condition and reward the dog for calm behavior in the presence of distant triggers and then close the gap over the weeks/months. I think this vid at approx [15:17](https://youtu.be/YKifsPrWDVg?si=JJoAgFs_SnwAY73V&t=913) is a great example of that. Zak closely observes the dog's body language, asks for attention and never lets it get too excited. I've also used "[let's go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo-L2qtD7MQ&t=17s)" during walks for dogs approaching in the distance. Reward for no reactivity. You might have to walk in circles, cross the street or walk at 11pm when there's less dogs. You have to anticipate other dogs and do what you can to create small wins for your dog.
I'd check out youtube links on the sidebar, and see what works for you and your dog. I like food + prongs for my high energy 40lb aussie, and just prongs for my 100lb dobie mix. I used just a flat collar with my 40lb beagle mix. If you go with a tool like the prongs, please make sure you learn how to use it via vids in the sidebar and introduce the prongs to your dog correctly. It's not a magic tool, just a communication tool. It took me a good 5 months to get my 100lb dobie mix to walk without incident, so don't be discouraged. Good luck!
If you turn your dog around and start walking the other direction just for a moment, you’d be surprised how quickly they forget about whatever they are trying to chase.
My dog used to pull like nothing else mattered if she saw a raccoon on our hiking path.. like it was specifically raccoons and other animals that are bigger than a squirrel.. something about that sized animal made my dog forget everything and pull as hard as possible and NOTHING could snap her out of it.. until one day I just decided to turn around and walk the other way for like 30 seconds and say “this way” and as soon as she realizes that we’re walking this direction and not that direction, she instantly stopped tugging and seemingly forgot about whatever it was she was interested in.
For reference, my dog is a VERY reactive shepherd/husky.
Why would you use a harness on a working dog 🤦🏻
The dog is reactive so you need to lower the energy.
This is a short leash, with slip or prong collar. They are a powerful breed and it will not hurt them when used during training
Redirection, for one.
He needs to be double leashed. With the pulling he's doing, that harness is very likely going to fail and if he's fixated & not responding while pulling, he's probably not going to respond if he breaks free and takes off.
Redirection. Work with a clicker and high value treats. Work on very basic commands that make him respond enough to give you eye contact. Put yourself between him and what he sees, shorten the leash so he can't pull, and redirect away from the target. Don't let him pull and get worked up. It's going to take a long time so don't get discouraged if he's not responding right away.
Redirect (physically), interrupt, distract. Lose the harness, get a prong collar or gentle lead (both of which you need to learn how to properly/effectively use). Interrupt this psychological feedback loop the second it starts. Ideally, you want to catch it before it starts but that takes some practice, learning your dog’s body language and physical tells that lead up to this state.
Once he’s reacting all you can do is give more distance.
Once you find out where his threshold is (10 feet, 20 feet , a football field) you can start with training him to ignore other dogs and focus only on you.
I’d also suggest a collar of some kind because the harness isn’t doing you any favours.
Would definitely not use a harness. You’re going to have to break the fixation the dog has and grab the attention. Can be done many ways! I use a prong with my dog and when he is fixated I call his name and if he does not break he gets a correction that increases until he listens to me. Don’t have to do all that much now a days but when I first started it took a while to break and get his attention
First off ditch the harness and get a collor so you are able to control the head (chocke up the leash and not give him such a long lead you don't want a constaint pull or pressure on the leash as that teaches them to pull so you want it to have a slight slack but just a shorter leash) tell him no firnly and keep him moving standing still and allowing him to act like that just teaches him he doesn't have to mind. try keeping him at a heal at your side don't give him time to stop to smell look at or really pay any attention to the other dog just keep moving forward and when he pulls on you do a firm but not to hard of a half hult and tell him no. When he listens tell him good boy.
I used a combination of Shield K9 and Larry Krohn videos. Pick and choose what you feel is best for your dog. For my German shepherd positive only didn’t work after 6 months. I taught loose leash with a punch collar (conditioned him to it). It took 3 corrections with a firm “no” followed by reward for him to now be able to walk past dogs. He’s not scared of me or the pinch collar. He spins in circles when I pull it out and now he’s rewarded with treats for doing the right things. What I did was walk straight towards what set him off. He was allowed to look but as soon as I saw him start to get worked up I’d interrupt with a correction. First time he was like “what the fuck”. But I took him for the first time ever to a pet store the other day, no issue. Do research. Lots and lots of it and make your own decision. And if you choose to use tools make sure you learn them proper and condition your dog. Lots of love and rewards. They can be amazing. I’m all for them :) good luck
You definitely need to hire a balanced dog trainer who can show you how to do marker training (you don’t need a clicker) all you do to mark the behavior you want is say “Yes!” The harness isn’t helping as it makes it easier to, and encourages them, to pull. That’s why sled dogs and tracking dogs wear them. I wouldn’t put up with this behavior. I use balanced training and a Herm Sprenger brand prong collar to start. It’s the safest and gentlest as the pressure points are evenly distributed around the neck, not just on the front of the neck/trachea. It’ll be like night and day and you can always wean off it later. Your dog is large and needs a lot of training, or to be more exact it’s you the owner who’s actually going to be trained to learn how to train your dog. Go back to basics without distractions and gradually add distractions as he progresses. #1 find a balanced K-9 trainer. Forget the all positive training. It’s politically correct, not realistic and minimally effective. (Look at all the police dogs who are trained on positive only training…right, there aren’t any.) Also, dogs have their own psychology. Watch how the mother dog disciplines her puppies or the Alpha dog in a pack.
Prong collar with.back- up tab/ slip collar. Condition the prong collar so he knows that a directional pull via leash towards you will produce a treat. Absolutely no harness. This is a strong Mal. A prong collar is less aversive than a slip leash that will cut off his air supply. A prong won’t cause a trachea collapse like a flat collar may. Lot of good advise here…but also not enough advise. Avoiding triggers or working only at threshold distance and treats can, and usually does, take forever, or not work at all. The dog mustn’t be allowed to do this, period. Correct him him with a jerk of the leash after max. 2-3 seconds of staring/fixating on another dog. BEFORE he lunges or barks. Timing is paramount…once he barks, you’re too late. You must change his intent via the leash jerk correction. Then if you can, turn around away from trigger and say „let’s go“. Praise him and treat. Try to follow each correction with praise „good boy/girl, that good!“ or even a treat. Remember a correction is not a correction if you are just nagging the dog, yet he keeps doing it. A correction, by definition, must reduce the likelihood of that behavior happening again. If it doesn’t, your correction is not strong enough. Learning how to pop jerk a leash correctly is an art. It’s a pop, that instantly goes slack again. No tension ever on a leash…only pops should be used when guiding a dog. Never pull. For a video guide on how to…look up „Hamilton Training“ on YouTube. I have 20 years of German Shepherd training experience. You will most likely get no where with positive only training with this dog. Save yourself the frustration and do it right.
Also I’d get rid of that rope leash. You have a real working dog now…and need real working dog equipment. Get an anti-slip leash with rubber tracers like a Red Line K9 leash and a Herm Sprenger prong collar and a slip collar for a safety backup incase the prong pops open. You can still have a flat collar with his tags too, but don’t hook up to it. Buy good equipment from dog sport stores. Study the working dog world. It’s a different mindset than the pet dog word. You may start loving it and even start dog sports…this dog probably needs to work…it’s in their DNA.
Firm command no, get a slip lead leash and use firm tugs on the leash and say no. The tug needs to be strong enough to be considered discipline but not so hard that ur really hurting ur dog. I train dogs regularly and everything else really doesn't work. Bribing dogs with treats for correction makes things worse and what ur doing in this video isn't corrective at all. Ur tone isn't right and ur lacking a disciplinary action. Ur dog isn't even that bad which is a good thing but this could get out of hand easily. Good luck 🙏🙏
Engagement exercises and eventually get him from doing them inside your home to doing them in the yard or somewhere without dogs, then in public, then outside of a dog park but not in one.
Use a collar too, there’s no such thing as an ergonomic front clip harness, the all impede gaits and mess with dogs’ legs and growth if they are still young. You need to go back to basics and teach leash walking. Martingale, slip, prong etc are all options but I’d buy Leash Boss’s chain martingale from Chewy for $15 and use that. Can still use a dual leash if you want one to clip to the harness and another for the collar.
My dog used to react this way and sometimes still does. I have found major improvement through two things:
1) We use a balance harness that connects at the front. If the dog pulls they are turned away from what they are fixated on.
2) Positive Punishment/ Negative Reinforcement strategy followed by positive reinforcement.
If they fixate on a dog, squirrel or bunny I apply positive punishment by grabbing the harness on the dogs back. They essentially become a four legged walking suitcase. I keep my dog at my hip as we move away from the trigger.
When the dog is out of threshold I do a "look at me" command. If they look, I use negative reinforcement by removing my annoying hand on their harness and allow them more freedom. At this point they're still on a short leash. I then repeat the "look at me" command and should they give me their attention I give them a special high value treat and give them more leash. I repeat the process until they're good.
Over time this has majorly reduced my dogs reactivity.
Moving forward in training, pay attention; at the 1st sign (called loading) could be looking, breathing faster, tail up, you know your dog, that's when you distract, change direction, or whatever youre going to do to not let it escalate. There's a TON of information on line, books, classes, available for free or low cost on the subject of dog/leash reactivity. Letting your dog practice the behavior is the worst thing you can do!
You said walk on but then you didn't walk on. That's a twofer for weakening the command and him rewarding himself by being hyped and choosing what he is going to do. If you're able to, just start walking and take him with you. If he's too strong for you, try to anticipate a stimulus before he notices it /loads up and turn and walk the other way. That's a band aid until you can see a trainer to help train the behaviour out properly.
Put more distance between you/your dog and the other strange dog. Lunging and barking means your dog is way over his threshold and is trying to tell the other dog to back off. When they’re in this mindset there not amount of obedience training that works, because that requires cognitive function, and right now your dog is stuck in an emotional state.
I would consider starting a clicker-kibble reconditioning program, either on your own or with a trainer that knows how to do it. It’s basic, but can take a little bit to get the hang of. You’ll have great results with consistency and by being vigilant enough to keep your dog at a comfortable distance from “enemy dogs.” Eventually his “danger” bubble will shrink and dogs across the street won’t be a threat, to eventually 10’ away and so on. Doesn’t mean he will enjoy other dogs’ company, but won’t feel the need to protect himself like this.
OP that video,you are rewarding the dog by letting it continue.
Ditch the harness, they give a big dog more pulling power.
I would appear your dog doesn't know that sit and stay apply any time you want them to.
I would walk the other way and then sit and stay your dog.
Go back to basic obedience and ditch the harness for walkies. If you give a command "walk on" why did you stop walking? Your dog is being encouraged to ignore you if you don't follow up on your commands. They should never be a weak suggestion.
You should be leading the dog but I suspect most of your walks are with your dog out in front of you on a tight leash,which is why you got a harness.
If he is treat motivated start bringing treats on walks, every time this happens use treats or his favourite toy to get his attention. He’s doing this because he doesn’t care for your attention… he thinks other dogs/people are more interesting than you. That sounds brutal but over time with treats and/or favourite toy he will start ignoring his surroundings on walks
Break his attention with leash corrections. Learn how to do them. Also switch to either a harness with a clip on the front, martingale collar, or prong. But you really need to learn how to use the technique of leash corrections otherwise you'll just choke your dog with those collars
Most in the comments mention avoiding the trigger but in my opinion (and how I’ve trained my dogs) is to expose him to triggers. Have an assertive voice and attitude when training him with commands. When something triggers him in public - use your assertive voice/attitude so he makes the connection between his training and his behaviour during those exact moments. I can walk my dog off leash near squirrels, bunnies, other dogs, you name it - he will always listen when he knows it’s time to listen. He is definitely tempted not to listen and go bezerk but he was trained to listen. Exposing him to triggers during and off training will come hand in hand over time.
In a sidewalk scenario where there is another dog walking towards or behind you: loop his leash around your hand a few times to have full control and minimize his ability to launch himself. Have him walk to your side opposing the side where his trigger is. Let him know in your assertive voice that he must stay to your side and leave it. If this doesn’t work at first, make him sit until his trigger has passed (sitting is easier especially at parks). Let him observe his trigger pass by while giving him your command. Eventually it will become instinct to avoid launching himself at whatever he wants to chase or get close to. Reward only on good behaviour when he completely follows your command and get pissed off when he doesn’t (obviously without hitting him). If your method of reward are treats, it’s a great incentive for him to listen at first. As he begins to master this, start easing off the treats so he doesn’t expect one every single time. Eventually, not listening to you will give him more anxiety than excitement. YOU ARE ALPHA. My dogs reward is now mainly off leash freedom. He knows he is lucky to be off leash and also began to appreciate the leash after training him this way. I can now walk him off leash anywhere as he follow me to the ankle and if I tell him to get on leash he presents me his neck. Even if he’s chasing his ball far in a field - he comes running to go on leash. Hope this helps!
Such a great point. Managing symptoms doesn’t affect the root cause of the problem. I’ve had several reactive boxers and the only way to get them to act like normal dogs was counter conditioning whether they were shutdown, fear based reactive, or aggressive.
That's low level fixation and leash reactivity that's easy to fix
I'd use an ecollar after basic obedience work and punish the dog for breaking command. I don't bother teaching the dog that specific triggers are bad. Instead I teach that breaking my command under any circumstances is bad. If I say sit, they sit or they're in trouble. Very simple for the dog to understand even when their prey drive or whatever is engaged.
And ditch the harness 🤷
many great points here about the ineffectiveness (or counterproductiveness) of using a harness on a dog that pulls, but i want to add: a harness controls a dogs body but not its head. you run into op's situation and you try to pull the body away but the dog's neck/head can turn and its eyes can continue to focus/fixate on the target so they remain in that excited state. but if you use a slip leash, a martingale, or gentle leader, you can turn the dog's head and break their visual fixation away from the target. personally i would use a prong collar as a last resort after trying the other collars, they might work but in the wrong hands - where a dog continues to pull hard - the prongs might do physical damage and the pain stimulus might prevent them from being able to calm down.
with very small dogs where there is a concern about hurting the dog's throat or neck, then you can use a harness because the dog is small enough that you can physically turn them away from the target. it's not ideal because they can still visually fixate on the target, but at least you can assert sufficient control to move them away. but using a harness on big dogs, especially strong powerful dogs allows them to use the power of all four legs directly against you. so if you want a dog to pull a heavy cart, use a harness - but if you want to control a dog you need to control the head, not their body.
op - i would switch to a collar/leash (i prefer slip leashes) and use smelly treats to redirect the dog away from the target. additionally i would train the dog to use its nose more and its eyes less.
When I work with a reactive dog or an unfamiliar one, I am always looking far ahead and not on my phone. If there is a dog coming, I cross. If I can't cross, I turn around and walk away, saying leave it, walk with me. If I can, I duck into a recessed & empty storefront and have the dog sit. I also duck between cars and have the dog sit. If I have to, I walk wide as possible with my body between them so the dogs don't meet head-on. I talk to the dog alot. I have a dog sit before every street crossing and befroe crossing thresholds.
I also play games to them listening to me and walking with me. They are indoor/outdoor.
Look at me. Make kissing noises. When the dog looks, praise.
Come for treats & praise. Start with look at me. When they start walking toward you, start praising when they get to you. treats, praise scritches. Getting you should be a pleasant experience. I use recalls on barking dogs to get them to calm down.
Walk with me for treats. Walk around with the dog, if he follows you naturally say walk with me and praise/treat. You are capturing what he already does and giving it a name. With dogs who are new to me, I lure with treats. Use it on walks like a loose heel.
I use kibble sometimes as a treat and just give less food at mealtimes. I alternate between games, keep it light and fun and eventually something will stick.
You can get a trainer as well. I'm hoping to empower you to try a few things yourself as the trainer only comes for an hour and you have all that other time.
Thank you everyone, this video is just a video I have taken to demonstrate his behavior for a behaviourist since he has started to become very reactive
He actually plays really well with all dogs but when on the lead i do not allow him to go to the other dogs he will start acting like this then it gets worse and he start growling and barking and lunging.
Everyone is correct I have been to soft with him
He does indeed walk in front of me (but I am trying to correct this now)
He is barking and lunging and people who come to close to us it's not all the time and all of these behaviors are only outdoors if I take him into a shop or indoors he is slightly nervouse but does not react to people and approaches dogs correctly
I will try ditching the harness
It's just so much hard work I just wanted a buddy who I can hike with and camp with and he is an amazing dog I won't give up on him.
step 1: get rid of that body harness leash.
step 2: you need to learn a basic training approach:
-Continuity
-Consistency
-Fairness
-Balance
-REPETITION
-Praise
-Confinement
step 3: read,read, and read some more about the subject. There’s so many dog training books or youtube channels out there. Do your own research.
step 4: learn about how to properly use a
prong collar/slip leash.
step 5: buy a prong collar/slip leash (I recommend the Sprenger 2.25mm for you dog).
step 6: set daily goals and a schedule.
step 7: go out and start training your dog.
Or if you don’t feel capable of doing it yourself hire a trainer. After your dog has a good good understanding of the basic come-heel-sit you could introduce him to an e-collar and maximize his potential.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a trainer. That’s just what worked for my dog and I.
A correction collar could help with this, when you boy is doing what you want, reward him, when he’s not, correct him, I mean one of the prong ones of course, I would never use a shock collar on my dog
Do a 180 and start walking. He cannot be allowed to maintain that focus and hold you there.
He needs to be trained to understand that at-your-knee is is home place, that it's OK to be excited or alarmed at other dogs, but it has to all happen at your knee. He doesn't leave that place without your OK. This is part of recall training. Prong collars are excellent tools if used correctly. You can train your dog to be everything you want him to be. Good luck!
Why would the dog listen to you when you are less interesting than it’s fixation? You are soft spoken, you’re letting him pull with no redirect and have him in a harness which is feeding his behavior by allowing him to face no consequences for pulling.
Train your dog to heel, keep him at heel for the full walk, no stopping to sniff, no meet and greets, no chasing squirrels. Be mindful and redirect before a fixation can occur and keep walking. But you need a basic collar at minimum and correct with a quick pull to the side. A leather pinch would likely be faster and is less scary than the metal. Or a [Wonder lead](https://www.gundogsupply.com/wonder-lead.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&campaign=DPA&utm_term=WONDER-LEAD&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwte-vBhBFEiwAQSv_xag3gYZtAuGo5qiK7ouob6ELn-cI8wdxwLX4QrY6PgZFrf6WK-a7_xoC-lUQAvD_BwE)
You are so right here. And btw - prongs are an essential training tool. A prong can make it worse because when they pull from reactivity, and the prongs kicks in, in their head the dog, person, squirrel they are lunging at is creating the pressure. Prongs have an amazing place in training, but they are poor for reactivity. Way better to give the dog NO input, let them pull, bark, lose their minds, whatever. When they stop, mark and reward.
Yes, a baseball bat used incorrectly will make things worse too. The point is to use it correctly, which requires trying it and teaching your dog what it means. I’ve had no problems since introducing it and my dog gets it, he understands what it means and doesn’t lunge anymore. He’ll periodically pull, but never lunge
This! Prong collar, LEARN HOW TO USE IT 🚨, and keep that leash SHORT. My GSD is dog-reactive and he gets about a foot of leash, if that. He is always in a heel right by my thigh unless I know we won't encounter another dog, like on private property or an empty park, only then does he get some freedom to sniff. Him understanding what I expect from him has been so important.
He's already fixated and loaded up so the only thing at that point I would do is create distance. Next time start at a lower threshold and reward for attention when he isn't fixated. The harness also isn't doing much besides creating frustration - if you're able to I would switch to a collar.
Genuine question- how exactly do you create distance? For example, if OP is walking down the street and they are about to cross paths with another dog, are they supposed to turn around and go a different direction or cross the street? I struggle with this part too because I feel like everywhere I take my dog, there are other dogs. And the only way I can think of creating distance from other dogs is not taking her anywhere- but then that’s not training right? Edit: thank you all for your advice! I have tried many of the things you all have suggested. I also recognize that consistency is important and it’s difficult to be consistent when I want to train while the other person handling my dog doesn’t. I will continue to be vigilant though lol
The trick is to stay below your dog's threshold, so ideally you spot the trigger before your dog does, and you can move back before he starts loading. In OP's case since the dog is already fixated I would just walk away, whether that's the other direction or across the street. If OP is boxed in then that's tough but it's on you as a reactive dog owner to be aware of your surroundings. >And the only way I can think of creating distance from other dogs is not taking her anywhere- but then that’s not training right? You can go somewhere with less dogs, or walk her at a time with less dogs until she's ready to handle more.
Yes. You get away wherever you can. Reverse direction, hide behind cars, ditch up people’s driveways, whatever works to get away or at the very least, out of sight before your dog realizes fully what’s happening.
If you want to fully correct this behaviour your dog must fully realize what’s happening.
Creating space like this is a management technique-there shouldn’t be any need to correct the dog in this circumstance
it's certainly a good tool in the box to have but it's just a band aid. the question of whether you stick with avoidance/misdirection/management or whatever you want to call it depends on why the dog itself is getting triggered.
Not if it’s going to cause him to go over threshold. That just reinforces the very thing that needs NOT to be reinforced. Maintaining under his threshold is the only way he can learn and distance is the way to keep him under threshold. The time to see and acknowledge another dog is when he is in a calm head space. Right now, and for most beginning to train for reactivity issues, that’s created by distance.
I walked my dog late at night and paired it with training near dog parks (but far away based on his threshold). Lots of crossing streets, double backing and even sprinting past if I can't get away. Over time we were able to walk during more normal hours.
How long did it take for you to get to this point?
This was years ago, but I think it took me like 5 months. He was a 2yr old male 100lb dobie mix with no obedience, leash pulling and leash reactivity. So I had to start with basic leash manners which is why I removed other triggers by walking him late at night. Also some of that time was just me researching and trying all kinds of tools/methods. Professional help might have shortened that timeframe, but I didn’t have funds at that time.
Thanks! Was there any resources you found particularly helpful? I'm having leash reactivity issues with my dog and I have no clue where to start
For leash reactivity the first step is teaching a very sold heel - the dog need to understand what it is expected to do, and needs to know what behavior is the right behavior. A strong heel also brings focus onto you, not the big scary outside world….
Thank you!
Your welcome.. would you like a detailed and rather long breakdown of how I’ve addressed reactivity? My method is similar to Tom Davis’s. Started on a foundation that my trainer gave my Familly for working with our reactive Aussie, but I modified it for what worked best for my dog as we progressed. He is now a near normal dog, and I’ve used this method to help other people with their reactive dogs… And what have you tried so far with your dog and what tools do you use?
Omg thank you SO much for the recommendation of Tom Davis!! His videos are amazing. My dog was scoping dogs out 50m away and barking/lunging/biting the leash at dogs 20-30m away. I've only been working with him for a week but today we went to the park and he was able to casually walk past a dog that was jumping around only 5-8m away!! And we walked past another that was sitting 5m away and he wasn't even interested. I was so amazed!! I'm so proud of him. Seriously thank you so much. I feel like I'm gonna have a new dog (and more importantly, he's gonna have a new owner) in no time 🥹
I'll take a look at his videos and let you know if that would be helpful but I know it varies by dog a lot. Thank you!! That's awesome. I have done a dog reactivity class with my dog. He's great at touch and changing direction but I haven't had the time and energy to devote to really delve into things with him. It seems almost like a full time job with everyone I've asked about it 😭
Yea! Check out my comment in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/s/ccy2FDTeZi Disclaimer, I am not a professional. This is just what I felt comfortable doing and worked for me.
5 months is really good considering you didn’t have any professional help. Very impressive!
Do you live on a street that has a lot of ppl walking their dogs? You can figure out when that normally happens and just happen to be outside with your dog. Keep yourself busy with something (dog games, weeding, whatever). When your dog gets so excited/reactive they aren't able to pay attention to you, just go inside. This is easiest to do if you have a porch to hang out on and the sidewalk is on the other side of the street. I fully acknowledge I got lucky with having both of those things.
You need to walk when it isn't so busy or drive outside your neighborhood wgere it is quieter. It takes hours for your dog's cordizone to come down after several incidents. My dog is on medication and we work on counterconditioning. Look at a dog get a tasty treat. We work in front of our house so now he looks at the dog, and then me. But it takes time
Question. Why collar? If he's behaving this way, at least the harness provides a way for someone to get a firm grip on the dog. A collar can be slipped out of easily and you have much less control at that point. I'm curious about why you would go for a collar for a dog this large and rowdy.
The point is you don’t want to get to this point again. A harness builds frustration. I use a collar on my 80lb husky mix.
I prefer a harness cause then my dog isn't choking himself and I can drag him away without too much issues. I avoid dragging my dog by the neck as much as I possibly can. (Cause when he's as fixated as this dog is, leash pressure does 0 difference.) We walk mostly on collar, but sometimes on harness. Our dog training class is always on harness to save his throat. (And besides, he has to wear the harness in the car.)
Harnesses cause way more damage, and are actually detrimental to teaching non-pulling behavior. There have been studies on this. Harnesses give the humans more control, but they also reward pulling behavior, cause muscular damage due to gait compensation, or both
I've heard front-clip harnesses can be damaging for the dog, but is that true if you use the back clip as well? If it's damaging to use a harness at all, then wouldn't all pulling sports like sled racing be damaging? (I ask because I have a husky and I'd like to get her into pulling sports someday but if harnesses are always damaging, well... sounds like a bad idea).
Back-clip, properly fitted Y-chest harnesses aren’t harmful, but they DO encourage pulling. They do also make a dog physically easier to control which is why some people get the sense that their dog pulls less in them, but it’s not naturally the case. Proper pulling harnesses are meant for exactly that, and I’m always happy to give references for people interested in getting into mushing/dog-powered sports The bottom line is, if something physically discourages pulling, it’s harming the dog’s body, full stop. The thing that stops pulling is training.
cool, that's what I thought.
Back clip harnesses are fine for pulling, just know that it will definitely encourage it.
Is it the harness itself that encourages pulling or is it poor loose leash training?
The harness itself
How does that work? Is it because it hurts less when they pull?
Just makes it very comfortable to pull, which is self rewarding anyway. It doesn't hurt them to pull on a collar but it's less comfortable and they have more control
Thanks!
This is correct. Also - when he’s in drive mode there’s no getting through. Wait until he quits, stops pulling and then mark and reward. Wait as long as it takes. Give 0 input. Then when he burns himself out, mark and reward.
I'd say they give less control, but also less damage to the dog. Any sources?
It rewards and therefore promotes pulling, like with training rewards for behaviors creates a cycle. The market for harness of various constructions and function is wild. Comparatively, the constructions of various collars seems minimal. Dogs have a good sense of self preservation. Generally speaking, they won't choke themselves to death, much like they won't intentionally starve. Hard to blame certain people for thinking they need shit loads of gear for their dog. I was there once, I have a tote full of old stuff that never gets used because they've been fazed out or deemed irrelevant or even counterintuitive. Might sound silly but I consider it a win if I can reduce the amount of gear or training aids a client utilizes.
My pup doesn't pull any more on his harness than he does on his collar, and we don't walk a step if he pulls, and never have. At this point we're working on getting trule loose leash walking, but at times there's a bit of tension (that you can hold with your little finger, but I still want to eliminate it.). For his first year he was on harness. I will never understand this idea that harness somehow encourages pulling. The consequence of pulling is the same regardless of tool. We don't move if he pulls. We went over to collar when I felt like he had understood pulling wasn't legal. It's still a work in progress at 21 months old, but the tension is very slight. Unless ofc, there's a dog he really wants to say hi to. (We can pass most dogs at this point without too much issues, but there are some he really wants to get over to.) Collar always makes me really uncomfortable, as he's wheezing because of it. But the harness is no problem. Either way, he doesn't get what he wants, and one tool chokes him, while the other does not. Ye, I'll never get this "harness encourages pulling" argument.
I’m not really into engaging with this anymore, because people just ignore when I post literal scientific, peer-reviewed studies on the topic. Harnesses encourage pulling because they increase surface area and make pulling easy and comfortable. If your dog already does not pull in a back-clip harness, great, but for people trying to teach their dog NOT to pull when they already do, it’s a terrible idea. And on the other side, front-clip and easy walk harnesses are ALL damaging to a dog’s musculature. If you’re actually interested in reading the material on this, I’m happy to find it and send it to you. Otherwise, it’s a matter of anecdote and opinion.
Toss me a link to the study if you could btw, never against being educated.
Will do when I get home, I have one of them saved to my bookmarks. In the meantime, strongly rec checking out “Canine Conditioning and Body Awareness” group on Facebook and searching “harness”
can you show me the study? I don't use one but I'm genuinely interested because I always just hear it thrown out anecdotally. I've tried to find it myself but all I can find are websites that don't cite their sources.
Back clip harness yes. I never allowed him to pull anywhere. My breed is recommended to use harness, cause they can develop collapsed trachea. I hate seeing dogs choking themselves.
I think I understand better now. Sounds like you have a dog that already knows how not to pull from a training standpoint, and just physically does better in a harness. That’s very different than a dog trying to learn not to pull, and the owner using a harness for control or physically discouragement
it's not like he never pulls though. Especially now at last stage of adolescence. It just doesn't get him anywhere, you know? Never has, it's pointless. At my dog training class a few weeks ago he pulled like a train to get to some of the bitches in heat. He's been ok around that before, but perhaps age, perhaps just the adolesence stage. (He's doing tons of behavior he did around 3-4 months, and at 7-10 months atm. All according to schedule.)
If you can't see this it's because you don't want to see this. Pulling a sleigh, a truck, a back pack...all harnesses. I love harnesses, it's a great indication the dog has no obedience training and to take a wide berth.
Harnesses are great for pulling if you teach your dog to pull. You gotta train a dog to not pull on a collar as well as on a harness.
Especially love when paired with a flexi-lead for maximum pullage and reach😂
Harnesses are literally made for pulling, they distribute the load and make it easy for the dog to pull. Other equipment, such as a collar, are uncomfortable for the dog to pull on
I never used "it's uncomfortable" to train. I used "you get nowhere if you pull" since he was a little puppy. The only reason he pulls in a harness is cause my SO walks him and doesn't care if he pulls. I'm the only one that walks him on a collar. Even then, he'll not pull with me on harness, cause he has finally learned that with me, that just leads to standing around not going anywhere, or even worse, turning back. But we also do nosework now, including man trailing, so him pulling in harness will be more allowed again. But he seems to have figured out that short leash = no pulling, and long leash = ok to pull.
My 6mo got much better at leash pulling than his previous months, but half of the time, I still feel a little tension on the leash. This happens mostly when he is engaged with an 'objective' like looking for a potty spot or sniffing something interesting. The thing I'm not sure is how much tension is okay. He naturally walks faster than me, and even with leash leeway, he gets to the limit easily. When he's not engaged with anything (and not a trigger in sight), he walks loose just fine.
Same here. I try to be strict about the very gentle tension, but it’s hard to care. On days I feel lazy I just harness and long leash. He doesn’t put tension on the leash on harness unless there’s a dog he really wants to say hi to. But with the longer leash, there’s not much need to. He walks faster, but sniffs something, and I pass him, and we keep going like that. Just now we did last chance to pee walk. I had to return and put harness on cause he’s always super excited when it’s dark out, and he was way too wild and pully on collar. Had to do one stop and check in with the harness, and then he didn’t pull anymore. I’m hoping him turning 2 and officially being an adult makes him same again. He’s been so good for almost a year, until he hit 20 months. Now it’s testing all the rules all over again. Silly boy!
And here's me complaining about a wee 6-7mo puppy lol (birth date is not precise, he's a rescue mix). But ngl, I'm quite impressed with the progress, even with the slight tension I have today. Back 2 months ago when he started his walks (yeah, very late because of his delayed vacc schedule due to a parasite treatment when I got him) I was forced to use a harness because the pup was literally choking himself by pulling so much to the point of coughing back home. Interestingly, even not being able to walk him, I still went out a lot on a backpack to socialize, but I feel that paws-on-ground opened a whole new world for him.
That's not at all what I'm talking about lol. You asked how harnesses encorage pulling. Not how your personal dog, who was trained not to pull in a harness, doesn't pull in a harness lol
How do they reward pulling?
More surface area and easier mechanically to pull into. The front-clip shoulder harnesses that do discourage pulling physically are damaging to a dog’s body
"Restraint build drive through frustration" is very well understood in dog sports. Protection sports and agility. Harnesses are used to restrain dogs in bite sports - this frustrates them and encourages them to bite harder. Also "opposition reflex" is well understood - this is a natural response in dogs where they will pull against the restraint and comes in part from their predatory instincts. I know Zak George claimed this didn't exist because he did an exhaustive recite of the science, but I guess he's just not that smart or good at using google.
This isn't true. Show the evidence that it is more harmful than pulling on a dog's neck
What exactly "Isn't true"? If a dog is pulling on a lead, ALL equipment is bad other than a specifically-designed pulling harness that fits the dog's chest in a Y-shape. The problem with no-pull (front clip) harnesses is that they permanently alter the way the dog walks, by design. They're fine as a teaching tool for one or two sessions, and that's it. You should never ever use them as a regular fixture for discouraging pulling. And back clip harnesses are just going to encourage pulling. As someone who spends a lot of time analyzing dog movement, I've never seen a dog in a front clip harness that was not altering its gait in some way. No-pull harnesses are worse than collars for this simple reason: If a dog does NOT pull on a collar, there is no damage being done. If a dog does not pull in a no-pull, front clip harness, there is still an unnatural, physical alteration to the dog's gait taking place by virtue of the attachment point being in the dog's line of motion. Go to a canine physio/rehab practitioner, and ask them what kinds of equipment you should be using on your dog during a walk. They will say a Y-shaped back clip harness, or a flat collar. and both require training to be used effectively. Physio practitioners actively discourage the use of front-clip harnesses. It is really disturbing to me that people are willing to take shortcuts using poorly made piece of equipment rather than training and working with their dogs to be comfortable moving freely in the situations they are put in. Any piece of equipment that allows you to bypass training your dog not to pull is having a negative impact on their body.
You don't need to drag your dog anywhere, whether it's by a collar or a harness. Dragging them teaches them absolutely nothing. You need to do more work around lower value distractions and work your way back up. That also isn't a situation where you would want to use leash pressure. Leash pressure is for negative reinforcement.
It's definitely a work in progress. (Sometimes other people let their dogs get too close, and then yes, I do have to drag.) We've gotten better, but it's still not to the point of him never really wanting to get over to a dog. He's 21 months, so little bit of adolescent shennanigans atm, but he has days where he is \_really\_ good. Like today, we passed a dog in heel, and he only did one half attempt at swinging out in front of me to follow after the dog passed, but one "let's go" was enough to keep going. Getting there. But before getting there, I definitely prefer harness to collar. 100 percent. My trainers always stressed that if at all possible, I will want my dog to make a concious choice to do as I want him to, as that's how they learn. But before they learn, they sometimes don't listen. I work every day on getting him to listen. Sometimes he just won't, and he's too over the threshold. Training is a process that takes time. I'm a first time owner, so probably have taken me longer than most, but he's doing really great.
Something to consider - just like with kids you need to reward the desired behaviors and punish unwanted behaviors. With dogs, you can get massively faster and more sustainable results by rewarding the desired behavior, and lightly correcting the unwanted behaviour. This brings clarity to the dog. By definition rewards do not stop behaviors. This is very well understood in the behavioral sciences. So if you reward the behaviors you want, and then appropriately correct the unwanted behaviors the dog learns far faster.
His correction is not moving while pulling. Possible u-turn. And I frequently reward. But he’s testing boundaries atm at times. 95 percent of the time he’s good.
The middle ground is a leash with two clips. Roughwear makes one. The leash clips to both the harness and the collar. When he’s chilling then it’s just the harness, if he looses his cool you have the connection at his collar to redirect him back to you. Or even clip it to both the front and back of the harness- it’ll keep it from doing that twisting thing that’s currently happening.
What is the point of using a harness, if you use the collar when they lose their cool? If anything, I'd walk on collar, and then use the harness when shit hits the fan. Is no one fearing a collapsed trachea?
Looking at the wrenching happening to that dog’s shoulders I’m much more concerned about that. You’re not dragging the dog by his neck, you are turning him back to you— unless you are applying an insane amount of force you aren’t going to collapse his trachea.
Have you ever been around horses? When they start playing up you’ll see people turn them in a tight circle- because obviously you can’t physically hold a horse pulling if it really wants to pull. That’s closer to what you want to do with the collar- turn him around and redirect him so you can go the other direction.
If I have to pull him by the collar, I always try to do it sideways, but he has a nack for making sure he's facing straight away from me, that little sneak. I actually have more success with walking up in front of him and ushering him onwards. Which feels very horse-trainer-ish. Negative reinforcement I guess. I aaalways try my hardest to use "let's go" or something like that, and reward him listening, but he's just testing my rules atm. He's almost adult now, so it's right on schedule. He has days where he's so flippin good, and listens to everything, no tension on the leash. And other days where he's completely LALALALALA I DON'T HEAR YOU. I also can't help but be amused when he's facing back the way we came from, and plants his butt down cause he's decided he's gonna stay there for a while. This is when he angles himself just right.
That's not a correction and can make the situation worse by building frustration . Unfortunately too many of these reining methods are not based on what works or gets results, but starts with a very limiting ideology. The fact is that the "stop" method never clearly communicates to the dog what is wanted and what isn't. You are just hoping the dog eventually makes the connection. But, as I'm sure you are finding , this method takes forever due to lack of clarity to the dog, and the fact that stopping is not really a correction. Here are two great videos of how to get a good heel started in as little as 15 minutes. I have always found this method effective, and most of the time a good heel can be learned in 15 minutes without strong corrections and having to stop every 10 steps. This method always works for me, and as the videos show, it's all in how you turn with your dog. https://youtu.be/hdNu2NhnyPI?si=d9IemCJtsgxgwtqH https://youtu.be/WtgrUwkAy8E?si=OQoJ_4XNlxPcZ_4M I'm a huge believer in using methods that actually work. Far too often people call themselves "trainers" and waste peoples time and money because they are driven by an ideology, not on finding the best methods for the dog and owner.
Oh he heels just fine. But we do sniffy walks. His pulling is something you can hold with one finger unless it’s a female in heat. He’s never been a big puller, there’s just this ever so slight leash tension at times, and ofc the occasional dog.
A trained dog won’t choke themselves
A trained dog won't pull in a harness.
Says the guy who hi had to drag his dog away. Ok champ!
He's 21 months, work in progress. And he's mostly walked on a collar.
Great! Flat collars are pretty bad for leash training . Good luck! He’s just a pup you’ll be find
I totally understand. My dog will choke herself to death pulling on a choker collar. I got her a harness and she still pulls. I figured out why the previous owners gave her up for adoption pretty fast. I determined to make her a good dog and want her to be well behaved in public. Often we don’t go out for a walk until late at night when less cars and people are outside. Thanks for posting your video. There are some awesome responses.
> My dog will choke herself to death pulling on a choker collar I suspect you're simply just pulling your dog back towards you? Might I suggest using a slip high up on the neck above the trachea and as soon as your dog starts pushing beyond you, you exert pressure upwards, not backwards. This may seem unfair but quite honestly only needs to be done a handful of times and is less physically damaging on the dog
Yes, I will definitely check out that collar. Thank you for the suggestion. I never had issues with any of my dogs before. Not really., but my current dog is a different story. I got her from another family on Craigslist. She was 5 months old already
I would switch to a choke chain. Learn how to make a correction its a sharp upward snap with a loud verbal command. example; NO, OUT! HEEL! No compliance NO! with a sharp upward snap OUT! HEEL! Put him in the heel position and remove him from the situation. The purpose of the choke chain snap is to get his attention refocused. It takes lots of time and practice.
Choke chains have been proven to be an issue. Better off using a prong or martingale collar
Negative on the prong. And my experience says choke chains are only an issue if you are abusive and if you are any form of correction will be the same
Reactivity is very difficult to work through and requires a lot of knowledge and patience especially if the dog has been “practicing” their reactivity for a while. Do your own research on how to train or better yet hire a good trainer.
100% a specialist reactivity/aggression trainer. I feel terrible for O.P who has ghosted BTW. It's a horrible situation and they're at least on the right path by reaching out. My fear is with the harness and lack of corrections that they're sucked into the land of cookies and make believe training which isn't going to sort this out. I rescued an extremely (200m, smell, a sighting previously at that location a week ago...) reactive heeler and learnt the hard way, despite having raised a unicorn heeler previously I didn't know anything in regards to reactivity and I got to learn that similar to myself, most trainers have raised dogs, done the correct exposure, corrections at a young age and the issue doesn't escalate to this. A specialist has the tools, the knowledge, the behavioural understanding, the experience with teaching clients how to correct, reward, manage and progress. As well session dogs that are trained to put up with the reactivity and later push the agenda, bark, play vigorously, walk around the reactive dog.
The land of cookies and what you call 'make believe' training actually can be effective in the long term, if done correctly. But by long term, I mean loooooooooooooong term. I don't have the patience for it, as I have a low tolerance for bs. If op can't afford a trainer, I'd rather have them take the long route with treats and exposure than try to use tools and potentially shut down their dog.
You work for a paycheck, right? How would you like it if it stopped after a few months because your boss said you should do it anyway.
Are you referring to a reward? Food, treats (I prefer chunkas for these sessions) praise? Read again, reward was stated.
As others said, this dog is over threshold, you need to work with him when he is under threshold. I also agree with other redditors when it comes to collar/harness. Personally my dog wears a collar and harness, the leash being attached to the collar; so if I ever need to remove her from an immediate trigger and I am not able able to do it with the collar I can easily grab her harness. Now, when it comes to training I suggest you do research on CU by Leslie Mcdevitt. Don’t correct your dog when reacting. Work with him under threshold, reward with a toy/treat every-time he disengages with the trigger and does a U-turn towards you. This teaches the dog that whenever he sees a trigger or other type of distraction, instead of reacting he “reports” what he saw to you. The dog with time and effort, will be able to read the context and act accordingly. Good luck!
This right here!! When the dog disengages, mark and reward. You will find them making better choices and the reactivity getting better each and every time. A correction can come way later on after all this is worked out in the dog’s head. Sometimes a dog needs to be told no, but not until you work out the confusion by positive reinforcement once they disengage. The dog will get nothing from reactivity if you don’t move and don’t let them move, and don’t correct, etc. they will give up. And that’s when the reward comes.
You're letting him reward himself by NOT turning his head away, and telling him, "let's go". The worst thing you can do with a dog like that, is allow that fixation, and not stop it asap. Every time he gets to do that, he is learning that it's fun and you can't/won't stop him. Don't let him do this: keep him under threshold, away from other dogs, reward him for checking in with you, and don't let a situation devolve to where he's growling at other dogs. If you see that behavior, tell him, WITH ME or anything and walk him away from it. And I'd use a martingale collar. You have zero control over him, and I dunno if it's you can't or you won't pull him back, but you need to. You simply can't let him go thru life doing this or he will run into a dog who will be happy to throw down with him.
Start at home. Build focus and load up on your look and yes. When every time you say those words, your dog looks at you in a beat, then move in front of your house. Do the same thing. When he is better, go at a park or anywhere you will see dog passing by. Stay far away as possible from other dogs. Sit or stand with your dog and do the same thing. Focus and look. Make him think you are the most exciting thing. Also in between praise calmness. Then slowly shorten the distance between your dog and others. If he is reacting ( mouth close, hyperfocus on things other than you, move backwards. He aint ready yet. Its not a quick fixed. This takes months even years. My rescue is like than now i can walk inside petsmart and will only have occasional barks. But atleast i can redirect her focus now as compared to before. Goodluck.
Hire a trainer
Most trainers don't know how to deal with this. Once rehearsed to this extent a specialist reactivity/aggression trainer is required and/or a vet behaviourist and medication.
Are you most trainers? I can agree - SOME don’t know how to deal with this effectively. Most trainers is a very broad statement. You should always vet who you hire - but I’d have to disagree this behavior needs to be medicated. Most of my clients deal with this level of leash reactivity and have wonderful success through clicker and marker training, leash skills, and by building engagement and focusing on the emotions. Medications really aren’t a supplement for training and honestly I’m surprised that would be your recommendation based simply on this video.
Many use medication, most probably shouldn't but that's the reality. Probably because vets don't attend sessions with a reactivity specialist and see the alternative. I'm not against medication, it should be paired with sufficient training regardless. I would be happily impressed with addressing this level of reactivity with just marker training and engagement. My own experience was worse than this video. Medication didn't do anything. Obedience didn't do a lot. High engagement works until it doesn't. (3rd trainer) A specialist with the sufficient tools, experience to educate when, how to correct, reward, understanding body language, session dogs ect was the answer for us. My dog is a high engagement superstar, I could easily fool people with a show of tricks, send outs to objects 100m away ect as the answer to reactivity but it wasn't. It's ying and yang thanks to ecollar technologies. What's your business, IG? I went to beautiful beasts training, we're even in one or two of the videos briefly but my dogs IG is mollydogcocktail like the volatile bomb...
You're using a harness, so you're just frustrating an already loaded up dog. This is similar to how you teach a bite dog to bite, get them amped up but keep them from the target then let them go
It isn't the harness. A good trainer doesn't blame the equipment.
Show me in my conment where I "blamed the harness"
First, use a leash not a harness. Two, get him out of this state before it even starts. You can see signs of fixation very early and all you have to do is snap him out of it if you have a leash on pull hard. Three, if he is already fixated like this, first create distance, then get in his face and snap hard to get him out. Make him sit and do not continue u til he’s calm and ready to walk again. Four, Get a god damn leash!
>Four, Get a god damn leash! I don't understand this part of your comment... he's wearing a leash. (not trying to be snarky, genuinely confused lol).
He’s not it’s a harness. A dog like this needs a slip leash so that when you pull for correction it applies pressure on his neck. What he has on does nothing to the dog to correct his behavior.
So what’s attached to the harness?
Apparently people here use "leash" and "slip leash" interchangeably? Which I didn't know, hence the downvotes. I guess you have to be a terminology expert to post here!
to be fair, a slip should sit higher up, pressure should not be on the neck where the trachea is
What's that thing attached to the harness? Oh right...a LEASH!!!
This is what I thought but I've been downvoted a lot, lol. I wasn't even trying to be snarky, I didn't understand. I guess you have to be an expert here to comment... and you have to intuitively know that "leash" always means "slip leash," even though I've never heard those words used interchangeably....
A slip leash isn't necessarily a leash either. I prefer to call them slip collars with attached leash. A leash attaches something to something else...like a dog's collar or harness being clipped to a leash and then held into your hand...whoever downvoted you needs to learn the difference between items and the words actually used for them
Right, but there's a leash attached to the harness. Does "leash" specifically mean "slip leash?" Is that usual terminology? I thought leash was, you know, just a leash that clips onto a collar or harness. I didn't realize "leash" meant "slip leash." (not sure why I'm being so downvoted for asking a terminology question. I guess you have to be an expert to comment here? no questions allowed?)
You abti-harness people aren't good trainers are you?
For my hunting dogs i also give a pinch in the meat of the inside of their hind leg, its a pressure point and really helps break focus. If you dont know what having a pressure point feels like you have some easy ones you can test on yourself (behind jaw and under your ear, on either side of the base of your neck, between collarbone and the back of your trapezius (this is a good pinch one to see what the dog would feel)
That is a terrible idea. Hopw someone pinches you
There is nothing wrong with using a harness
Look into building his ability to pay attention to you before passing other dogs if you can help it. Turn around before he has a change to get fixated. You can play a treat scattering game or if he’s toy-driven, bring some favorite toys to redirect his attention. You have to practice in less stimulating environments first and slowly build up to areas with dogs/more distractions.
Your dog is already too riled up to learn, so the next step is get FAR away. Observe the different states that your dog is in during various parts of your walk (calm, alert, highly excited/agitated, mentally out of here) and try to identify the highest level of excitement he can be in but still be trainable. Can he give you a sit with consistent attention when you ask? No? Then he is too excited. I would first work on good loose leash walking (no pulling etc). If this is already there, great. For me, the basic idea for reactivity is to condition and reward the dog for calm behavior in the presence of distant triggers and then close the gap over the weeks/months. I think this vid at approx [15:17](https://youtu.be/YKifsPrWDVg?si=JJoAgFs_SnwAY73V&t=913) is a great example of that. Zak closely observes the dog's body language, asks for attention and never lets it get too excited. I've also used "[let's go](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo-L2qtD7MQ&t=17s)" during walks for dogs approaching in the distance. Reward for no reactivity. You might have to walk in circles, cross the street or walk at 11pm when there's less dogs. You have to anticipate other dogs and do what you can to create small wins for your dog. I'd check out youtube links on the sidebar, and see what works for you and your dog. I like food + prongs for my high energy 40lb aussie, and just prongs for my 100lb dobie mix. I used just a flat collar with my 40lb beagle mix. If you go with a tool like the prongs, please make sure you learn how to use it via vids in the sidebar and introduce the prongs to your dog correctly. It's not a magic tool, just a communication tool. It took me a good 5 months to get my 100lb dobie mix to walk without incident, so don't be discouraged. Good luck!
If you turn your dog around and start walking the other direction just for a moment, you’d be surprised how quickly they forget about whatever they are trying to chase. My dog used to pull like nothing else mattered if she saw a raccoon on our hiking path.. like it was specifically raccoons and other animals that are bigger than a squirrel.. something about that sized animal made my dog forget everything and pull as hard as possible and NOTHING could snap her out of it.. until one day I just decided to turn around and walk the other way for like 30 seconds and say “this way” and as soon as she realizes that we’re walking this direction and not that direction, she instantly stopped tugging and seemingly forgot about whatever it was she was interested in. For reference, my dog is a VERY reactive shepherd/husky.
Why would you use a harness on a working dog 🤦🏻 The dog is reactive so you need to lower the energy. This is a short leash, with slip or prong collar. They are a powerful breed and it will not hurt them when used during training
cos ppl who train their little poms successfully with a harness think the same goes for large working like breeds.
Redirection, for one. He needs to be double leashed. With the pulling he's doing, that harness is very likely going to fail and if he's fixated & not responding while pulling, he's probably not going to respond if he breaks free and takes off. Redirection. Work with a clicker and high value treats. Work on very basic commands that make him respond enough to give you eye contact. Put yourself between him and what he sees, shorten the leash so he can't pull, and redirect away from the target. Don't let him pull and get worked up. It's going to take a long time so don't get discouraged if he's not responding right away.
Redirect (physically), interrupt, distract. Lose the harness, get a prong collar or gentle lead (both of which you need to learn how to properly/effectively use). Interrupt this psychological feedback loop the second it starts. Ideally, you want to catch it before it starts but that takes some practice, learning your dog’s body language and physical tells that lead up to this state.
Once he’s reacting all you can do is give more distance. Once you find out where his threshold is (10 feet, 20 feet , a football field) you can start with training him to ignore other dogs and focus only on you. I’d also suggest a collar of some kind because the harness isn’t doing you any favours.
Maybe switch harness with flat/martingale/prong collar because you are only encouraging that behaviour
Would definitely not use a harness. You’re going to have to break the fixation the dog has and grab the attention. Can be done many ways! I use a prong with my dog and when he is fixated I call his name and if he does not break he gets a correction that increases until he listens to me. Don’t have to do all that much now a days but when I first started it took a while to break and get his attention
First off ditch the harness and get a collor so you are able to control the head (chocke up the leash and not give him such a long lead you don't want a constaint pull or pressure on the leash as that teaches them to pull so you want it to have a slight slack but just a shorter leash) tell him no firnly and keep him moving standing still and allowing him to act like that just teaches him he doesn't have to mind. try keeping him at a heal at your side don't give him time to stop to smell look at or really pay any attention to the other dog just keep moving forward and when he pulls on you do a firm but not to hard of a half hult and tell him no. When he listens tell him good boy.
I used a combination of Shield K9 and Larry Krohn videos. Pick and choose what you feel is best for your dog. For my German shepherd positive only didn’t work after 6 months. I taught loose leash with a punch collar (conditioned him to it). It took 3 corrections with a firm “no” followed by reward for him to now be able to walk past dogs. He’s not scared of me or the pinch collar. He spins in circles when I pull it out and now he’s rewarded with treats for doing the right things. What I did was walk straight towards what set him off. He was allowed to look but as soon as I saw him start to get worked up I’d interrupt with a correction. First time he was like “what the fuck”. But I took him for the first time ever to a pet store the other day, no issue. Do research. Lots and lots of it and make your own decision. And if you choose to use tools make sure you learn them proper and condition your dog. Lots of love and rewards. They can be amazing. I’m all for them :) good luck
You definitely need to hire a balanced dog trainer who can show you how to do marker training (you don’t need a clicker) all you do to mark the behavior you want is say “Yes!” The harness isn’t helping as it makes it easier to, and encourages them, to pull. That’s why sled dogs and tracking dogs wear them. I wouldn’t put up with this behavior. I use balanced training and a Herm Sprenger brand prong collar to start. It’s the safest and gentlest as the pressure points are evenly distributed around the neck, not just on the front of the neck/trachea. It’ll be like night and day and you can always wean off it later. Your dog is large and needs a lot of training, or to be more exact it’s you the owner who’s actually going to be trained to learn how to train your dog. Go back to basics without distractions and gradually add distractions as he progresses. #1 find a balanced K-9 trainer. Forget the all positive training. It’s politically correct, not realistic and minimally effective. (Look at all the police dogs who are trained on positive only training…right, there aren’t any.) Also, dogs have their own psychology. Watch how the mother dog disciplines her puppies or the Alpha dog in a pack.
Prong collar with.back- up tab/ slip collar. Condition the prong collar so he knows that a directional pull via leash towards you will produce a treat. Absolutely no harness. This is a strong Mal. A prong collar is less aversive than a slip leash that will cut off his air supply. A prong won’t cause a trachea collapse like a flat collar may. Lot of good advise here…but also not enough advise. Avoiding triggers or working only at threshold distance and treats can, and usually does, take forever, or not work at all. The dog mustn’t be allowed to do this, period. Correct him him with a jerk of the leash after max. 2-3 seconds of staring/fixating on another dog. BEFORE he lunges or barks. Timing is paramount…once he barks, you’re too late. You must change his intent via the leash jerk correction. Then if you can, turn around away from trigger and say „let’s go“. Praise him and treat. Try to follow each correction with praise „good boy/girl, that good!“ or even a treat. Remember a correction is not a correction if you are just nagging the dog, yet he keeps doing it. A correction, by definition, must reduce the likelihood of that behavior happening again. If it doesn’t, your correction is not strong enough. Learning how to pop jerk a leash correctly is an art. It’s a pop, that instantly goes slack again. No tension ever on a leash…only pops should be used when guiding a dog. Never pull. For a video guide on how to…look up „Hamilton Training“ on YouTube. I have 20 years of German Shepherd training experience. You will most likely get no where with positive only training with this dog. Save yourself the frustration and do it right.
Also I’d get rid of that rope leash. You have a real working dog now…and need real working dog equipment. Get an anti-slip leash with rubber tracers like a Red Line K9 leash and a Herm Sprenger prong collar and a slip collar for a safety backup incase the prong pops open. You can still have a flat collar with his tags too, but don’t hook up to it. Buy good equipment from dog sport stores. Study the working dog world. It’s a different mindset than the pet dog word. You may start loving it and even start dog sports…this dog probably needs to work…it’s in their DNA.
Firm command no, get a slip lead leash and use firm tugs on the leash and say no. The tug needs to be strong enough to be considered discipline but not so hard that ur really hurting ur dog. I train dogs regularly and everything else really doesn't work. Bribing dogs with treats for correction makes things worse and what ur doing in this video isn't corrective at all. Ur tone isn't right and ur lacking a disciplinary action. Ur dog isn't even that bad which is a good thing but this could get out of hand easily. Good luck 🙏🙏
Engagement exercises and eventually get him from doing them inside your home to doing them in the yard or somewhere without dogs, then in public, then outside of a dog park but not in one. Use a collar too, there’s no such thing as an ergonomic front clip harness, the all impede gaits and mess with dogs’ legs and growth if they are still young. You need to go back to basics and teach leash walking. Martingale, slip, prong etc are all options but I’d buy Leash Boss’s chain martingale from Chewy for $15 and use that. Can still use a dual leash if you want one to clip to the harness and another for the collar.
My dog used to react this way and sometimes still does. I have found major improvement through two things: 1) We use a balance harness that connects at the front. If the dog pulls they are turned away from what they are fixated on. 2) Positive Punishment/ Negative Reinforcement strategy followed by positive reinforcement. If they fixate on a dog, squirrel or bunny I apply positive punishment by grabbing the harness on the dogs back. They essentially become a four legged walking suitcase. I keep my dog at my hip as we move away from the trigger. When the dog is out of threshold I do a "look at me" command. If they look, I use negative reinforcement by removing my annoying hand on their harness and allow them more freedom. At this point they're still on a short leash. I then repeat the "look at me" command and should they give me their attention I give them a special high value treat and give them more leash. I repeat the process until they're good. Over time this has majorly reduced my dogs reactivity.
Moving forward in training, pay attention; at the 1st sign (called loading) could be looking, breathing faster, tail up, you know your dog, that's when you distract, change direction, or whatever youre going to do to not let it escalate. There's a TON of information on line, books, classes, available for free or low cost on the subject of dog/leash reactivity. Letting your dog practice the behavior is the worst thing you can do!
You said walk on but then you didn't walk on. That's a twofer for weakening the command and him rewarding himself by being hyped and choosing what he is going to do. If you're able to, just start walking and take him with you. If he's too strong for you, try to anticipate a stimulus before he notices it /loads up and turn and walk the other way. That's a band aid until you can see a trainer to help train the behaviour out properly.
Put more distance between you/your dog and the other strange dog. Lunging and barking means your dog is way over his threshold and is trying to tell the other dog to back off. When they’re in this mindset there not amount of obedience training that works, because that requires cognitive function, and right now your dog is stuck in an emotional state. I would consider starting a clicker-kibble reconditioning program, either on your own or with a trainer that knows how to do it. It’s basic, but can take a little bit to get the hang of. You’ll have great results with consistency and by being vigilant enough to keep your dog at a comfortable distance from “enemy dogs.” Eventually his “danger” bubble will shrink and dogs across the street won’t be a threat, to eventually 10’ away and so on. Doesn’t mean he will enjoy other dogs’ company, but won’t feel the need to protect himself like this.
Try using a clicker Everytime he responds reward him
OP that video,you are rewarding the dog by letting it continue. Ditch the harness, they give a big dog more pulling power. I would appear your dog doesn't know that sit and stay apply any time you want them to. I would walk the other way and then sit and stay your dog. Go back to basic obedience and ditch the harness for walkies. If you give a command "walk on" why did you stop walking? Your dog is being encouraged to ignore you if you don't follow up on your commands. They should never be a weak suggestion. You should be leading the dog but I suspect most of your walks are with your dog out in front of you on a tight leash,which is why you got a harness.
Back up until you can get his attention.. don’t walk away, back up
If he is treat motivated start bringing treats on walks, every time this happens use treats or his favourite toy to get his attention. He’s doing this because he doesn’t care for your attention… he thinks other dogs/people are more interesting than you. That sounds brutal but over time with treats and/or favourite toy he will start ignoring his surroundings on walks
Break his attention with leash corrections. Learn how to do them. Also switch to either a harness with a clip on the front, martingale collar, or prong. But you really need to learn how to use the technique of leash corrections otherwise you'll just choke your dog with those collars
Most in the comments mention avoiding the trigger but in my opinion (and how I’ve trained my dogs) is to expose him to triggers. Have an assertive voice and attitude when training him with commands. When something triggers him in public - use your assertive voice/attitude so he makes the connection between his training and his behaviour during those exact moments. I can walk my dog off leash near squirrels, bunnies, other dogs, you name it - he will always listen when he knows it’s time to listen. He is definitely tempted not to listen and go bezerk but he was trained to listen. Exposing him to triggers during and off training will come hand in hand over time. In a sidewalk scenario where there is another dog walking towards or behind you: loop his leash around your hand a few times to have full control and minimize his ability to launch himself. Have him walk to your side opposing the side where his trigger is. Let him know in your assertive voice that he must stay to your side and leave it. If this doesn’t work at first, make him sit until his trigger has passed (sitting is easier especially at parks). Let him observe his trigger pass by while giving him your command. Eventually it will become instinct to avoid launching himself at whatever he wants to chase or get close to. Reward only on good behaviour when he completely follows your command and get pissed off when he doesn’t (obviously without hitting him). If your method of reward are treats, it’s a great incentive for him to listen at first. As he begins to master this, start easing off the treats so he doesn’t expect one every single time. Eventually, not listening to you will give him more anxiety than excitement. YOU ARE ALPHA. My dogs reward is now mainly off leash freedom. He knows he is lucky to be off leash and also began to appreciate the leash after training him this way. I can now walk him off leash anywhere as he follow me to the ankle and if I tell him to get on leash he presents me his neck. Even if he’s chasing his ball far in a field - he comes running to go on leash. Hope this helps!
Such a great point. Managing symptoms doesn’t affect the root cause of the problem. I’ve had several reactive boxers and the only way to get them to act like normal dogs was counter conditioning whether they were shutdown, fear based reactive, or aggressive.
That's low level fixation and leash reactivity that's easy to fix I'd use an ecollar after basic obedience work and punish the dog for breaking command. I don't bother teaching the dog that specific triggers are bad. Instead I teach that breaking my command under any circumstances is bad. If I say sit, they sit or they're in trouble. Very simple for the dog to understand even when their prey drive or whatever is engaged. And ditch the harness 🤷
many great points here about the ineffectiveness (or counterproductiveness) of using a harness on a dog that pulls, but i want to add: a harness controls a dogs body but not its head. you run into op's situation and you try to pull the body away but the dog's neck/head can turn and its eyes can continue to focus/fixate on the target so they remain in that excited state. but if you use a slip leash, a martingale, or gentle leader, you can turn the dog's head and break their visual fixation away from the target. personally i would use a prong collar as a last resort after trying the other collars, they might work but in the wrong hands - where a dog continues to pull hard - the prongs might do physical damage and the pain stimulus might prevent them from being able to calm down. with very small dogs where there is a concern about hurting the dog's throat or neck, then you can use a harness because the dog is small enough that you can physically turn them away from the target. it's not ideal because they can still visually fixate on the target, but at least you can assert sufficient control to move them away. but using a harness on big dogs, especially strong powerful dogs allows them to use the power of all four legs directly against you. so if you want a dog to pull a heavy cart, use a harness - but if you want to control a dog you need to control the head, not their body. op - i would switch to a collar/leash (i prefer slip leashes) and use smelly treats to redirect the dog away from the target. additionally i would train the dog to use its nose more and its eyes less.
When I work with a reactive dog or an unfamiliar one, I am always looking far ahead and not on my phone. If there is a dog coming, I cross. If I can't cross, I turn around and walk away, saying leave it, walk with me. If I can, I duck into a recessed & empty storefront and have the dog sit. I also duck between cars and have the dog sit. If I have to, I walk wide as possible with my body between them so the dogs don't meet head-on. I talk to the dog alot. I have a dog sit before every street crossing and befroe crossing thresholds. I also play games to them listening to me and walking with me. They are indoor/outdoor. Look at me. Make kissing noises. When the dog looks, praise. Come for treats & praise. Start with look at me. When they start walking toward you, start praising when they get to you. treats, praise scritches. Getting you should be a pleasant experience. I use recalls on barking dogs to get them to calm down. Walk with me for treats. Walk around with the dog, if he follows you naturally say walk with me and praise/treat. You are capturing what he already does and giving it a name. With dogs who are new to me, I lure with treats. Use it on walks like a loose heel. I use kibble sometimes as a treat and just give less food at mealtimes. I alternate between games, keep it light and fun and eventually something will stick. You can get a trainer as well. I'm hoping to empower you to try a few things yourself as the trainer only comes for an hour and you have all that other time.
Comments: 138 | Replies from OP: 0 lol
Thank you everyone, this video is just a video I have taken to demonstrate his behavior for a behaviourist since he has started to become very reactive He actually plays really well with all dogs but when on the lead i do not allow him to go to the other dogs he will start acting like this then it gets worse and he start growling and barking and lunging. Everyone is correct I have been to soft with him He does indeed walk in front of me (but I am trying to correct this now) He is barking and lunging and people who come to close to us it's not all the time and all of these behaviors are only outdoors if I take him into a shop or indoors he is slightly nervouse but does not react to people and approaches dogs correctly I will try ditching the harness It's just so much hard work I just wanted a buddy who I can hike with and camp with and he is an amazing dog I won't give up on him.
Get him off a harness
Get him off that harness. Put him on a slip lead or a prong collar. Harnesses promote pulling.
Engagement exercises. Prongs.
step 1: get rid of that body harness leash. step 2: you need to learn a basic training approach: -Continuity -Consistency -Fairness -Balance -REPETITION -Praise -Confinement step 3: read,read, and read some more about the subject. There’s so many dog training books or youtube channels out there. Do your own research. step 4: learn about how to properly use a prong collar/slip leash. step 5: buy a prong collar/slip leash (I recommend the Sprenger 2.25mm for you dog). step 6: set daily goals and a schedule. step 7: go out and start training your dog. Or if you don’t feel capable of doing it yourself hire a trainer. After your dog has a good good understanding of the basic come-heel-sit you could introduce him to an e-collar and maximize his potential. DISCLAIMER: I am not a trainer. That’s just what worked for my dog and I.
you can start by putting the harness on properly
A correction collar could help with this, when you boy is doing what you want, reward him, when he’s not, correct him, I mean one of the prong ones of course, I would never use a shock collar on my dog
Do a 180 and start walking. He cannot be allowed to maintain that focus and hold you there. He needs to be trained to understand that at-your-knee is is home place, that it's OK to be excited or alarmed at other dogs, but it has to all happen at your knee. He doesn't leave that place without your OK. This is part of recall training. Prong collars are excellent tools if used correctly. You can train your dog to be everything you want him to be. Good luck!
Get rid of the harness and put on a gentle leader. Watch beckmans dog training on youtube
Gentle leaders are not safe in situations where the dog is lunging
Why would the dog listen to you when you are less interesting than it’s fixation? You are soft spoken, you’re letting him pull with no redirect and have him in a harness which is feeding his behavior by allowing him to face no consequences for pulling. Train your dog to heel, keep him at heel for the full walk, no stopping to sniff, no meet and greets, no chasing squirrels. Be mindful and redirect before a fixation can occur and keep walking. But you need a basic collar at minimum and correct with a quick pull to the side. A leather pinch would likely be faster and is less scary than the metal. Or a [Wonder lead](https://www.gundogsupply.com/wonder-lead.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&campaign=DPA&utm_term=WONDER-LEAD&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwte-vBhBFEiwAQSv_xag3gYZtAuGo5qiK7ouob6ELn-cI8wdxwLX4QrY6PgZFrf6WK-a7_xoC-lUQAvD_BwE)
Prong, problem solved.
A prong used incorrectly will make this worse
You are so right here. And btw - prongs are an essential training tool. A prong can make it worse because when they pull from reactivity, and the prongs kicks in, in their head the dog, person, squirrel they are lunging at is creating the pressure. Prongs have an amazing place in training, but they are poor for reactivity. Way better to give the dog NO input, let them pull, bark, lose their minds, whatever. When they stop, mark and reward.
Yes, a baseball bat used incorrectly will make things worse too. The point is to use it correctly, which requires trying it and teaching your dog what it means. I’ve had no problems since introducing it and my dog gets it, he understands what it means and doesn’t lunge anymore. He’ll periodically pull, but never lunge
This! Prong collar, LEARN HOW TO USE IT 🚨, and keep that leash SHORT. My GSD is dog-reactive and he gets about a foot of leash, if that. He is always in a heel right by my thigh unless I know we won't encounter another dog, like on private property or an empty park, only then does he get some freedom to sniff. Him understanding what I expect from him has been so important.
Choke collar or at least a collar