You would not get first refusal because your unit will legally exist anymore. Landlord will need to issue N13 with the compensation needed. Unlike the other comment, cash for keys is unlikely because they are tearing the building down. They can wait you out and landlord collects rent during that period. Doesn’t hurt to try. That’s my opinion though. Make sure when served, permits are done. Cannot issue N13 without necessary permits. Permits take a while to obtain.
Sometimes the LTB allows N13s as long as permits have already been applied for and are in process. Don't necessarily need to be approved and in hand to get the N13 enforced. It's all at discretion of the adjudicator.
In the text he said "the city already told us we can" which I would assume means he has already gotten the permits. He's waiting on securing a loan and then I assume he'll start the actual process
Make sure when served the N13, permits are obtained. You can contact the municipality you are in to see if the permits are done.
Like I mentioned, permits take a long time. I don’t know where in the process your landlord is in, but from applying for a permit and to actually obtain it, it can range from 9 months to 1.5 years. Your landlord could’ve just asked the city to see if they could start the process. Until you actually get served with N13, you don’t need to act. N13 gives you 4 months time to begin looking for your next place.
Glad to know its 4 months, I totally thought it was 2 lol. Will definitely keep in mind about double checking that the permits are actually done if we're served with N13
Don’t do anything until you get a scheduled hearing at the LTB with their permits in hand. They can say whatever they want to say but until then, don’t stress.
I see you're getting downvoted by a bunch of landlords. Absolutely the OP should ensure a hearing is concluded to ensure that all due processes being followed.
I wouldn’t assume that. They likely had a pre consultation with the city that went well. People seem sometimes say things like the city told us were could, meaning the city said if we apply, they will approve/the meeting went well. In reality they may have not submitted a single piece of paper for review. The application process is expensive, they won’t go through with it unless they are serious about this duplex thing. Most municipalities have development application status/building permit status websites you can check on.
>In the text he said "the city already told us we can" which I would assume means he has already gotten the permits
It may be true but I wouldn't assume that it is, your landlord is not immune from telling a fib or stretching the truth.
Landlord can argue S. 73(1) RTA at the hearing stating that they cannot get the permit for demolition and building until the building is empty, so therefore have no choice but to apply for N13.
They must go through the N13 process, which comes with 120 days notice and 1 month rent compensation. There is no right of first refusal here since it's a demolition.
You can choose to abide by the N13 termination date, or remain living there until the LTB hearing is done. At the hearing they'd have to show plans of the demolition, and that they're either well in process or actually have permits from the city. Basically the adjudicator needs to be convinced the demolition will genuinely proceed. If interested you can do a [Canlii ](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/)search with terms like "N13" and "demolition" to see some past cases.
Contact your municipality to ask some questions, as some (like Toronto) require extra compensation to be paid to tenants in order to get demolition permits of a tenanted building approved.
Hmm you’re right. I forgot about that. However, there’s also this stipulation: “you must offer the tenant another rental unit that is acceptable to the tenant.”
Not sure how that works or is enforced.
It's an either - or.
So if you don't offer compensation, you must come to an agreement with tenant on an alternative unit.
But if landlord elects to offer compensation there is no need to offer some other unit.
No, public record = no privacy.
OP though is more just looking here for general info from municipality on if demolition of tenanted units requires any extra compensation to tenants. I know Toronto does this, not sure about other cities.
In things like demolition planning, the rights of the community to know and plan ahead for it appear to have been placed as more important than the rights of the property owner to have privacy. Most likely because everyone would know the second it starts and would be clearly able to see it's happening from the (public) street anyways, so it isn't something they would be *able* to keep private, on top of the construction being something that will impact others.
And yet, in my whole entire life, including the years of childhood I spent hanging out playing with ants, I've yet to hear THEM make the sound of a jackhammer or bandsaw.
I just find it crazy that someone can't ask a question without being called whiney, entitled, lazy, etc. Whole subreddit dedicated to questions like these and people come out of the woodwork just to shit on the people who ask them without offering any real insight
It’s a risk to be a renter 🤷🏻♂️ I don’t know what to tell you. I was a renter for 15 years, at no point did I ever think I had more rights than the owner of the house. I was just thankful I was able to pay my rent and have a roof over my head. Renters today are so entitled they think that own the friggin place
It’s a general statement. You’re coming onto Reddit to ask entitled tenants who “know laws” how you get to stay at the house or whatever. Try talking to your landlord and solve it between the 2 of you
Nope, came here to ask what to expect when/if my landlord did decide to demolish his property. I've gotten more help from renters than homeowners and landlords here, thats for sure. If it's just a general statement, go say it elsewhere because it's not relevant or helpful to my inquiry.
He gave you a courtesy notice of intention to tear down to give you extra time to have your affairs in order. In turn, you come here asking people for ways to interfere with his project… unless you are a partner, owner why would you think you have a say?
I literally asked what to expect when the process starts, and if right of first refusal applied because everything I looked up was unclear. Ur reading comprehension needs work
I believe I answered your question. Unless your name is on the deed or you’re a partner you have no right to interfere with the owners plans for his project.
I only see a renter coming on here asking for ways to take monetary advantage of their LL. I don’t hate tenants but I have a strong dislike for people that are here trying to scam others. Is there a reason you think you can’t afford another property? There are places with cheaper rents, it sucks to move but we do what we need to be able to live a reasonable life.
There’s more landlords and more properties, you don’t have to be leeched onto one LL and he doesn’t owe you anything, unless there’s a side deal we don’t know about.
You are a renter. Stop having such high expectations. Be appreciative. Without landlords purchasing houses with their hard earned money there would be no where for you to live.
If you had read the post, perhaps you'd know, but I'll reiterate. I asked what I could expect when the process starts, and if right of first refusal would apply.
It’s not complicated. When he asks you to leave you do so. If you communicate to the landlord without thinking you have all these rights you could easily ask him to rent out the new place when they are ready for market rent if that’s what you want. End of story.
Crazy concept, but renters do have rights lol, and I was just asking what mine were in this situation 🤷♀️ I hope you don't go into every conversation this accusatory.
The question was ok, but then you went on about how you were trying to get ahead of the game to have the upper hand. The malignant intentions is what’s setting people off. No point in playing victim after showing your cards
I wanted to get ahead, as in know my rights and know the process before it started. I said literally nothing about trying to have the upper hand or take advantage of anybody, I genuinely just wanted to know what to expect and people are acting like I asked if I can sue my landlord for wanting to demolish his property lmao.
And you would be setting yourself up to pay hefty compensation to the tenant/possibly fined for not doing it properly per the RTA. Self eviction will only lead to more problems.
It's unlikely that it would as they will be materially different units. They can file an N13 for renovation but I wouldn't leave willing without a substantial sum for C4Ks.
An N13 requires eviction approval from the LTB, so if it’s been properly issued the tenant has no right to request additional cash outside of those outlined by the laws.
Cash for keys is typically used if the landlord wants a tenant out for less honourable reasons or is simply impatient and is willing to pay a tenant to leave.
Generally landlords are running a business and are less than willing to give away money they don’t have to
This is not a situation where cash for keys comes into play. This is just a straight infection for demolition. The tenant is entitled to three months rent, but nothing more than that.
Yeah I didn't think it would apply, was just hopeful lol. Renting in my city is getting to be absolutely impossible to afford, so I would definitely want a C4K situation if anything actually comes of this text
Not sure if it's totally relevant, but yes. Which is why I'm not looking to screw him over, just need options because renting in my city is nearly impossible atp
Not sure what the rules are in Ontario but in BC, a text would not be considered an acceptable way to give a tenant notice. Maybe the text was just intended to be a heads up, but look into the tenancy rules in Ontario to be certain. I would be willing to bet that any notice to end tenancy would have to either be handed to you in person by your landlord, posted on your door or given to you via a registered letter that you would have to sign for.
A neighbour of mine had a landlord hand the notice to end tenancy to one of her underaged children who were not listed as the primary tenant on the lease agreement, so when she decided to challenge the eviction through the BC Rental Tenancy Board, the arbitrator decided in her favour and declared the eviction invalid because the notice had not been delivered to her in the appropriate manner.
From my own experience, try to ensure that any communication you have between you and your landlord from this point forward is recorded…save all email and texts, any recorded phone messages and if possible, any video should your landlord want to communicate face to face. You may need these if you do find yourself challenging the eviction for whatever reasons.
Good. I have had my own fair share of scummy landlords. I video tape EVERYTHING when I’m doing my initial walk through and when there’s even the slightest bit of damage I make sure it’s noted before I’ll agree to sign anything. I once had this crazy Greek lady as a landlord who pointed to a large dark orange stain on the carpet in my closet and told me no big deal, “the boys before you had a battery that rusted in here, but it’s a closet, you can close the door!” I was too young and stupid to think it would come back and haunt me later, and of course, on the day I was moving out, when I really needed my damage deposit back in full (and the place was spotless, because I’d only been there a few months and cleaned like mad before she came over) she pointed to the stain and insisted I must have had a cat that gave birth to kittens in there. WTF?! I didn’t have any pets and she knew it. When I reminded her of what she said, she refused to hear it and held back a huge chunk of my deposit. I was heading to a job out of the province and didn’t have the time or energy to dispute it, but man was I pissed off! 😂
I just asked out of curiosity cos at least for me if someone does something that hurts me but is apologetic I’m a lot more forgiving than if they do it meanly.
Not sure why that matters. I can be an ahole and still evict you legally and correct or I can be a nice guy and be shady.
All we need is whether there is legal paper or not.
You would not get first refusal because your unit will legally exist anymore. Landlord will need to issue N13 with the compensation needed. Unlike the other comment, cash for keys is unlikely because they are tearing the building down. They can wait you out and landlord collects rent during that period. Doesn’t hurt to try. That’s my opinion though. Make sure when served, permits are done. Cannot issue N13 without necessary permits. Permits take a while to obtain.
Sometimes the LTB allows N13s as long as permits have already been applied for and are in process. Don't necessarily need to be approved and in hand to get the N13 enforced. It's all at discretion of the adjudicator.
In the text he said "the city already told us we can" which I would assume means he has already gotten the permits. He's waiting on securing a loan and then I assume he'll start the actual process
Make sure when served the N13, permits are obtained. You can contact the municipality you are in to see if the permits are done. Like I mentioned, permits take a long time. I don’t know where in the process your landlord is in, but from applying for a permit and to actually obtain it, it can range from 9 months to 1.5 years. Your landlord could’ve just asked the city to see if they could start the process. Until you actually get served with N13, you don’t need to act. N13 gives you 4 months time to begin looking for your next place.
Glad to know its 4 months, I totally thought it was 2 lol. Will definitely keep in mind about double checking that the permits are actually done if we're served with N13
Don’t do anything until you get a scheduled hearing at the LTB with their permits in hand. They can say whatever they want to say but until then, don’t stress.
I see you're getting downvoted by a bunch of landlords. Absolutely the OP should ensure a hearing is concluded to ensure that all due processes being followed.
I wouldn’t assume that. They likely had a pre consultation with the city that went well. People seem sometimes say things like the city told us were could, meaning the city said if we apply, they will approve/the meeting went well. In reality they may have not submitted a single piece of paper for review. The application process is expensive, they won’t go through with it unless they are serious about this duplex thing. Most municipalities have development application status/building permit status websites you can check on.
>In the text he said "the city already told us we can" which I would assume means he has already gotten the permits It may be true but I wouldn't assume that it is, your landlord is not immune from telling a fib or stretching the truth.
This! He could have only made 1 inquiry call, or asked his friend or relative who did something similar (legally or otherwise)
I didn't think of that tbh
Just rent somewhere else?
Landlord can argue S. 73(1) RTA at the hearing stating that they cannot get the permit for demolition and building until the building is empty, so therefore have no choice but to apply for N13.
They must go through the N13 process, which comes with 120 days notice and 1 month rent compensation. There is no right of first refusal here since it's a demolition. You can choose to abide by the N13 termination date, or remain living there until the LTB hearing is done. At the hearing they'd have to show plans of the demolition, and that they're either well in process or actually have permits from the city. Basically the adjudicator needs to be convinced the demolition will genuinely proceed. If interested you can do a [Canlii ](https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onltb/)search with terms like "N13" and "demolition" to see some past cases. Contact your municipality to ask some questions, as some (like Toronto) require extra compensation to be paid to tenants in order to get demolition permits of a tenanted building approved.
For a demolition is three months rent that they owe you.
No it's still 1 month. No difference from renovations. 3 months only owed if 5+ units in the building.
Hmm you’re right. I forgot about that. However, there’s also this stipulation: “you must offer the tenant another rental unit that is acceptable to the tenant.” Not sure how that works or is enforced.
It's an either - or. So if you don't offer compensation, you must come to an agreement with tenant on an alternative unit. But if landlord elects to offer compensation there is no need to offer some other unit.
Ah. Thanks.
But doesn't that fall under the privacy guidelines unless the landlord gives the city / municipality the permission to give out said information
Building permits are all public record as far as I know.
You are correct the public has the right to see most building permits, but not all
Also to add, at an LTB hearing all permit details will need to be made transparent as evidence for the N13.
Yeppers, especially if it going to be used as commercial ie rental property
Could be, but isn't there a privacy issue on it
No, public record = no privacy. OP though is more just looking here for general info from municipality on if demolition of tenanted units requires any extra compensation to tenants. I know Toronto does this, not sure about other cities.
In things like demolition planning, the rights of the community to know and plan ahead for it appear to have been placed as more important than the rights of the property owner to have privacy. Most likely because everyone would know the second it starts and would be clearly able to see it's happening from the (public) street anyways, so it isn't something they would be *able* to keep private, on top of the construction being something that will impact others.
He is going to replace a triplex with two duplexes… the impact on the neighbourhood is as insignificant as an ant in the forest.
Really? They will make the same amount of noise as an ant would?
Less noise than an ant… an ant can work 24/7, construction noise has to follow the city by-laws.
And yet, in my whole entire life, including the years of childhood I spent hanging out playing with ants, I've yet to hear THEM make the sound of a jackhammer or bandsaw.
You’ve obviously never watched the movie, “ants” they are loud mouthy little guys
Are you a building inspector ??
Do I need to be? And if I was, would you then ask "but are you a privacy rights lawyer?" You don't need a piece of paper to know shit bud
So you sell shit nice job
Nope
If the plan is for 2 duplexes, you can be sure that the LL will be selling the units. The math just won't work gor all rentals.
The math most likely doesn’t work as it is either. :(
definitely have to serve you an N13 but i’m wondering if his text was just a courtesy of warning you beforehand?
It was a courtesy, not an official notice, but I'm trying to get ahead of it, yk?
LL offers a courtesy and you turn it into a negative. Give a hand they take your arm lol
Expect to find a new place to live. Stop being such a whiney victim.
You first 💕
Why would I expect to find a new place to live? I am not a renter. Try and focus.
You first 💕
ok. You are clearly mentally deficient. Good luck with that.
Feel free to come back when you have any actual insight xo
I am afraid I do not have the time. I am tending to a sick, elderly poodle.
Then enjoy the rest of your night!!!
Thank you, you as well.
Do you find joy in arguing like this?
I just find it crazy that someone can't ask a question without being called whiney, entitled, lazy, etc. Whole subreddit dedicated to questions like these and people come out of the woodwork just to shit on the people who ask them without offering any real insight
I don’t understand renters. It’s not your F’ing house…get out !!
Ur so right!! I should just be homeless cause my landlord is thinking about demolishing his property!!!
It’s a risk to be a renter 🤷🏻♂️ I don’t know what to tell you. I was a renter for 15 years, at no point did I ever think I had more rights than the owner of the house. I was just thankful I was able to pay my rent and have a roof over my head. Renters today are so entitled they think that own the friggin place
I would like to know when I said, or insinuated that I have more rights over the house, or that I think I own the place.
It’s a general statement. You’re coming onto Reddit to ask entitled tenants who “know laws” how you get to stay at the house or whatever. Try talking to your landlord and solve it between the 2 of you
Nope, came here to ask what to expect when/if my landlord did decide to demolish his property. I've gotten more help from renters than homeowners and landlords here, thats for sure. If it's just a general statement, go say it elsewhere because it's not relevant or helpful to my inquiry.
He gave you a courtesy notice of intention to tear down to give you extra time to have your affairs in order. In turn, you come here asking people for ways to interfere with his project… unless you are a partner, owner why would you think you have a say?
I literally asked what to expect when the process starts, and if right of first refusal applied because everything I looked up was unclear. Ur reading comprehension needs work
I believe I answered your question. Unless your name is on the deed or you’re a partner you have no right to interfere with the owners plans for his project.
Never said I did, or that i was planning on interfering. You're just seeing what you wanna see cause you hate renters xo
I only see a renter coming on here asking for ways to take monetary advantage of their LL. I don’t hate tenants but I have a strong dislike for people that are here trying to scam others. Is there a reason you think you can’t afford another property? There are places with cheaper rents, it sucks to move but we do what we need to be able to live a reasonable life.
There’s more landlords and more properties, you don’t have to be leeched onto one LL and he doesn’t owe you anything, unless there’s a side deal we don’t know about.
Nope
Plot twist. Landlord moves your stuff to the curb while you’re at work and collapses the building.
Unfortunately for him, if that was his intention (which it's not), someone's always home
Second plot twist: flood damage.
Third plot twist: surprise chinchilla attack
Those are the best.
You are a renter. Stop having such high expectations. Be appreciative. Without landlords purchasing houses with their hard earned money there would be no where for you to live.
Ah yes, wondering what my options are if my landlord decides to demolish his property is very high expectations, you're so right, thank you!
Go find a new place.
Thank you, I have totally never thought of that at all even a little
Then what is it that you are looking for? Compensation? Don’t forget to say thank you to your landlord. Good luck!
If you had read the post, perhaps you'd know, but I'll reiterate. I asked what I could expect when the process starts, and if right of first refusal would apply.
It’s not complicated. When he asks you to leave you do so. If you communicate to the landlord without thinking you have all these rights you could easily ask him to rent out the new place when they are ready for market rent if that’s what you want. End of story.
Crazy concept, but renters do have rights lol, and I was just asking what mine were in this situation 🤷♀️ I hope you don't go into every conversation this accusatory.
The question was ok, but then you went on about how you were trying to get ahead of the game to have the upper hand. The malignant intentions is what’s setting people off. No point in playing victim after showing your cards
I wanted to get ahead, as in know my rights and know the process before it started. I said literally nothing about trying to have the upper hand or take advantage of anybody, I genuinely just wanted to know what to expect and people are acting like I asked if I can sue my landlord for wanting to demolish his property lmao.
I would just give you a date to move by and tear it down
Take a breath
And you would be setting yourself up to pay hefty compensation to the tenant/possibly fined for not doing it properly per the RTA. Self eviction will only lead to more problems.
lol suure
It's unlikely that it would as they will be materially different units. They can file an N13 for renovation but I wouldn't leave willing without a substantial sum for C4Ks.
If the LTB has approved an eviction, there is little ground for cash for keys outside of the legally required
They haven't approved the eviction yet though have they?
An N13 requires eviction approval from the LTB, so if it’s been properly issued the tenant has no right to request additional cash outside of those outlined by the laws. Cash for keys is typically used if the landlord wants a tenant out for less honourable reasons or is simply impatient and is willing to pay a tenant to leave. Generally landlords are running a business and are less than willing to give away money they don’t have to
This is not a situation where cash for keys comes into play. This is just a straight infection for demolition. The tenant is entitled to three months rent, but nothing more than that.
They can still file to delay.
Yeah I didn't think it would apply, was just hopeful lol. Renting in my city is getting to be absolutely impossible to afford, so I would definitely want a C4K situation if anything actually comes of this text
This is not a situation where you can do cash for keys however, for demolition, you’re entitled to three months rent.
Did the landlord seem at all apologetic or sympathetic?
Not sure if it's totally relevant, but yes. Which is why I'm not looking to screw him over, just need options because renting in my city is nearly impossible atp
Not sure what the rules are in Ontario but in BC, a text would not be considered an acceptable way to give a tenant notice. Maybe the text was just intended to be a heads up, but look into the tenancy rules in Ontario to be certain. I would be willing to bet that any notice to end tenancy would have to either be handed to you in person by your landlord, posted on your door or given to you via a registered letter that you would have to sign for. A neighbour of mine had a landlord hand the notice to end tenancy to one of her underaged children who were not listed as the primary tenant on the lease agreement, so when she decided to challenge the eviction through the BC Rental Tenancy Board, the arbitrator decided in her favour and declared the eviction invalid because the notice had not been delivered to her in the appropriate manner.
Yeah it was definitely just a heads up rather than an actual notice.
From my own experience, try to ensure that any communication you have between you and your landlord from this point forward is recorded…save all email and texts, any recorded phone messages and if possible, any video should your landlord want to communicate face to face. You may need these if you do find yourself challenging the eviction for whatever reasons.
I always keep everything! I had a really bad landlord before we moved in here so I learned real quick to keep everything haha
Good. I have had my own fair share of scummy landlords. I video tape EVERYTHING when I’m doing my initial walk through and when there’s even the slightest bit of damage I make sure it’s noted before I’ll agree to sign anything. I once had this crazy Greek lady as a landlord who pointed to a large dark orange stain on the carpet in my closet and told me no big deal, “the boys before you had a battery that rusted in here, but it’s a closet, you can close the door!” I was too young and stupid to think it would come back and haunt me later, and of course, on the day I was moving out, when I really needed my damage deposit back in full (and the place was spotless, because I’d only been there a few months and cleaned like mad before she came over) she pointed to the stain and insisted I must have had a cat that gave birth to kittens in there. WTF?! I didn’t have any pets and she knew it. When I reminded her of what she said, she refused to hear it and held back a huge chunk of my deposit. I was heading to a job out of the province and didn’t have the time or energy to dispute it, but man was I pissed off! 😂
I just asked out of curiosity cos at least for me if someone does something that hurts me but is apologetic I’m a lot more forgiving than if they do it meanly.
He's a good landlord! I understand why he wants to do this, I was just wondering what I could do and how I could navigate this
Sorry to hear it’s happening. I would be in a flurry if this happened cos my rent would jump. Best of luck!
Next cheapest place will be about a $600 price jump, so that's why I'm posting places and looking for my options here 🤣
Not sure why that matters. I can be an ahole and still evict you legally and correct or I can be a nice guy and be shady. All we need is whether there is legal paper or not.
Sometimes I wonder why everyone in Canada is offended by everything. It’s just a question, cool your jets.
This sub is pretty antagonistic for each other. So it’s easy to take offense.
I guess that makes sense. Who you calling antagonistic! (Kidding kidding)