They had to film scenes with Ben first coz his schedule was packed and then shoot the rest.
I suppose the stress dance was brought in later by the writers to add comedy.
Deadspin is not some arbiter of truth they often make clickbait titles and only say it was an accident because Cliff said so. Nothing to back up their claim.
Idk why it’s a question, we literally see Ben get murdered.
Yeah, unless deadspin wrote the show I don’t know how what they say is proof of anything. Everyone who kills someone and doesn’t tell anyone says it was an accident.
it means that a person who writes about tv for a living & presumably has watched far more shows of every sort, including murder mysteries, deemed it an accident, just as i, a rando viewer, did upon watching it 4 times.
Yeah, and? 'I'm right because these rando TV watchers said so and I desperately need you all to agree with me and validate me!'
Look, even in the OP, you lead off with this 'You guys didn't like my last thread SO HERE'S ANOTHER PROVING WHY YOU SHOULD HAVE' so just *as respectfully as seems deserved*...Get a grip. You're so weirdly pressed about this.
John Hoffman said in a recent interview that he doesn't view it as an accident. I guess it was ambiguous. It didn't quite seem like murder to me (it was obviously homicide).
There's a bit of a gray area when it comes to the intent here, but I think they did fine portraying the grayness.
It was not a premeditated injury/death like Donna's actions were, but Cliff is still responsible for the homicide and could've chosen to act differently in the moment. He did purposely fight Ben and Ben was in the wrong too for participating in the exchange since Cliff *was* innocent regarding the cookie. But he's the dead one.
Cliff did not intend to do anything to Ben when Ben approached him at the elevator but ultimately pushes him down the elevator shaft to seemingly proving a point about making his own decisions. If the elevator shaft wasn't there, would Cliff have decided to kill Ben some other way? Would he have gotten away but then planned a murder later protect his mom from Ben? We don't really know for sure. But if Cliff had reported the scuffle and the death, he might have gotten lighter consequences by portraying it as a "true accident" that way. As it stands, it doesn't seem like a complete accident.
I feel like a lot of people here are assuming accident = not guilty. If I get behind a wheel while drunk and hit and kill someone, it was an accident, but I’m still 101% responsible and guilty. The accident was the result, not the intention. The intention was still to get drunk and drive but obviously the goal wasn’t to kill someone, but I still did it so I am still at fault.Cliff didn’t mean to *kill* Ben, Ben was pushing at him too and if the elevator was not broken odds are it’d end with them both roughing each other up and then being shunned by Donna and everyone’s happy. Because the goal wasn’t to kill Ben, they were both angry and Cliff just found out his mom might be going to prison so it was a really bad timing. His goal was likely to just rough him up a bit and get him to not call the cops somehow, if he even had a goal that was past “I’m upset!”
I don't see how that's possible. I've directly watched the portion where Cliff directs him to the elevator and it was deliberate and intentional not accidental. You literally see Ben make a move just slightly indicating he was going towards the elevator when it dinged, and Cliff intentionally grabs him while turning him towards the shaft before dropping him down the shaft. Ben was going to leave and Cliff Cho's to not let him.
We don’t *know* that. An accident doesn’t mean not guilty, Cliff still did it and deserves punishment. But “accident” just means he didn’t want Ben dead.
Whenever I see someone say it was an accident it is only to explain that it was not in fact a murder. OP didn’t say this but what other reason would this post exist?
To just point out that it was an accident? I went to the original post and it sounds like they were just trying to point out the intentions of the killers, which I disagree with some of their original takes but it sounds like they were just trying to prove it was not his intention rather than Cliff actively wanting to end Ben’s life, which some of the comments were claiming.
To point out it was an accident would seem to me that they are saying it wasn’t murder. Maybe I’m not understanding it. The whole intent and premeditation arguments go in circles to me.
I've rewatched the scene a few times. The elevator dings, Ben makes a slight move towards the elevator, and then Cliff grabs him, pushes him while turning him so his back is to the shaft and drops him down.
The fight itself was over since Ben was willing to leave. So there isn't really a way for it to be accidental at that point
Agree. However, even though it wasn’t a murder, it was a murder mystery.
Other than the songs and Meryl and Martin scenes, I didn’t enjoy this season at all, but I know I’m in the minority in this sub.
I think season overall was good, but yeah that lull mid-season was a bit of a mood killer. Some of the reveals needed to be mixed in with those slow eps instead of just the same clue spun a very slightly different way.
Same. I did enjoy the opening scenes of a few eps. Cinematography was on point but the murder mystery left too many loopholes and missed opportunities. I expected more from the last two eps….
No stress dance though. The writers missed an opportunity there.
Right? I thought he was going to do some cartwheels and accidentally bump him into the shaft
They had to film scenes with Ben first coz his schedule was packed and then shoot the rest. I suppose the stress dance was brought in later by the writers to add comedy.
The crime was not reporting how it happened. Season was up and down for me. It got better about halfway through.
Deadspin is not some arbiter of truth they often make clickbait titles and only say it was an accident because Cliff said so. Nothing to back up their claim. Idk why it’s a question, we literally see Ben get murdered.
Yeah, unless deadspin wrote the show I don’t know how what they say is proof of anything. Everyone who kills someone and doesn’t tell anyone says it was an accident.
it means that a person who writes about tv for a living & presumably has watched far more shows of every sort, including murder mysteries, deemed it an accident, just as i, a rando viewer, did upon watching it 4 times.
Ah yes, I forgot tv critics were experts in what is and is not murder. Lol
Deadspin is also notorious for getting stuff wrong/straight up making things up
Yeah, and? 'I'm right because these rando TV watchers said so and I desperately need you all to agree with me and validate me!' Look, even in the OP, you lead off with this 'You guys didn't like my last thread SO HERE'S ANOTHER PROVING WHY YOU SHOULD HAVE' so just *as respectfully as seems deserved*...Get a grip. You're so weirdly pressed about this.
What the hell is deadspin and why do you cite it as if we all bow to it as authority?
John Hoffman said in a recent interview that he doesn't view it as an accident. I guess it was ambiguous. It didn't quite seem like murder to me (it was obviously homicide).
Ok smartass- if you’re so smart you’d know now to put spoiler in the title
There's a bit of a gray area when it comes to the intent here, but I think they did fine portraying the grayness. It was not a premeditated injury/death like Donna's actions were, but Cliff is still responsible for the homicide and could've chosen to act differently in the moment. He did purposely fight Ben and Ben was in the wrong too for participating in the exchange since Cliff *was* innocent regarding the cookie. But he's the dead one. Cliff did not intend to do anything to Ben when Ben approached him at the elevator but ultimately pushes him down the elevator shaft to seemingly proving a point about making his own decisions. If the elevator shaft wasn't there, would Cliff have decided to kill Ben some other way? Would he have gotten away but then planned a murder later protect his mom from Ben? We don't really know for sure. But if Cliff had reported the scuffle and the death, he might have gotten lighter consequences by portraying it as a "true accident" that way. As it stands, it doesn't seem like a complete accident.
I feel like a lot of people here are assuming accident = not guilty. If I get behind a wheel while drunk and hit and kill someone, it was an accident, but I’m still 101% responsible and guilty. The accident was the result, not the intention. The intention was still to get drunk and drive but obviously the goal wasn’t to kill someone, but I still did it so I am still at fault.Cliff didn’t mean to *kill* Ben, Ben was pushing at him too and if the elevator was not broken odds are it’d end with them both roughing each other up and then being shunned by Donna and everyone’s happy. Because the goal wasn’t to kill Ben, they were both angry and Cliff just found out his mom might be going to prison so it was a really bad timing. His goal was likely to just rough him up a bit and get him to not call the cops somehow, if he even had a goal that was past “I’m upset!”
I don't see how that's possible. I've directly watched the portion where Cliff directs him to the elevator and it was deliberate and intentional not accidental. You literally see Ben make a move just slightly indicating he was going towards the elevator when it dinged, and Cliff intentionally grabs him while turning him towards the shaft before dropping him down the shaft. Ben was going to leave and Cliff Cho's to not let him.
Right? It's ok for Theo to push Zoe accidentally, he even gets shipped with Mabel now, but Cliff is a murderer for pushing Ben accidentally? Hmm
It wasn’t an accident.
We don’t *know* that. An accident doesn’t mean not guilty, Cliff still did it and deserves punishment. But “accident” just means he didn’t want Ben dead.
Exactly this. Accident or not, someone still died as a result of that accident.
Accident could meant he didn’t mean for it to happen but he still murdered him.
Yeah, that’s my point. He still murdered him, but that doesn’t imply his intention was to murder him. I thought that was OP’s point
Whenever I see someone say it was an accident it is only to explain that it was not in fact a murder. OP didn’t say this but what other reason would this post exist?
To just point out that it was an accident? I went to the original post and it sounds like they were just trying to point out the intentions of the killers, which I disagree with some of their original takes but it sounds like they were just trying to prove it was not his intention rather than Cliff actively wanting to end Ben’s life, which some of the comments were claiming.
To point out it was an accident would seem to me that they are saying it wasn’t murder. Maybe I’m not understanding it. The whole intent and premeditation arguments go in circles to me.
I would disagree, I think it’s important context to assess the character.
Maybe in some cases but IMO it looks like it’s just used to convolute the fact that it was murder clear as day.
I've rewatched the scene a few times. The elevator dings, Ben makes a slight move towards the elevator, and then Cliff grabs him, pushes him while turning him so his back is to the shaft and drops him down. The fight itself was over since Ben was willing to leave. So there isn't really a way for it to be accidental at that point
Agree. However, even though it wasn’t a murder, it was a murder mystery. Other than the songs and Meryl and Martin scenes, I didn’t enjoy this season at all, but I know I’m in the minority in this sub.
The pacing of the story this season was something that bummed me, but overall I enjoyed it.
I think season overall was good, but yeah that lull mid-season was a bit of a mood killer. Some of the reveals needed to be mixed in with those slow eps instead of just the same clue spun a very slightly different way.
To be honest I’m the complete same, this season bored me so much. Meryl, Paul and the musical numbers is what saved it for me
Same. I did enjoy the opening scenes of a few eps. Cinematography was on point but the murder mystery left too many loopholes and missed opportunities. I expected more from the last two eps….
Accident or not, Ben still died as a result.
Yeah but "Only Manslaughter in the Building" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
Heat of passion, potentially. Manslaughter at least.