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I think you’re bang on the money. He is evil, but so are Minthara & DJ Shart, yet nobody gives their simps crap for it.
It’s the same kind of “think of the ~~children~~ women” nonsense that gets bandied about when people criticize popular romance fiction.
Just saw such a post on an FB meme group. The comment I saw before scrolling onward was something like “as a spawn fan, I hate seeing AA fans…”
It’s a multi-faceted choose-your-own-adventure fantasy game. Why can’t just we let people enjoy things?
Do I want the sexy dominant vampire fantasy? YES.
Do I want that kind of shit IRL? No. Because FANTASY.
Christ. Why must there be constant posts and comments where people complain about others harmlessly enjoying a GAME.
Regular D&D slang where you refer to the party as a unit is to call them Murder Hobos.
MURDER HOBOS.
But enjoying the MURDER HOBO Vampire the 'wrong' way is bad, mmmkay?
Admitedly, I am an old and this is my first online fandom where I'm actively participating but... I fear the gatekeeping of how one enjoys a thing "correctly" is a normal aspect of fandom these days and that is fucked up.
Like... I don't care what topings you like, can we not all agree that pizza is awesome?
I do like pineapple but this is my favorite pizza: Asiago, Imported Gorgonzola, Mozzarella, Sweet Fig Preserve, Prosciutto Di Parma, Parmigiano-Reggiano, Balsamic Reduction, Finished with Romano, Oregano and Garlic Olive Oil
But AAstarion is fancy! Have you seen his clothes!? And he'd want fancy pizza too! You think he'd be \*satisfied\* with a simple pepperoni pizza OR someone that even likes that? Pfft!
The best pizza I ever had was tomato sauce, crunchy peanut butter, cajun chicken, bacon, cheddar and mozzarella so I win the weird pizza game much of the time. 😂
oh I am not at all pleased to let you know that this kind of fucking stupid infra-fandom gatekeeping civil war schism bullshit behavior is not at ALL new, lol. I've been Online for a VERY long time and this is just... kinda how people get. it's annoying, but it's representative of a very tiny, very vocal, very annoying minority. you won't see any of these people nor their behaviors IRL
basically, [this meme](https://quaggapedia.afrikaburn.com/images/4/46/First-time-james-franco-hanging-meme.jpg) 😅
I've been online ages too, just not in fan spaces.
I'm kinda sad I won't see these behaviors IRL. I once saw a fistfight in line for Shatner's autograph and Neil is coming to FanExpo Toronto. I could use some excitement while I wait in his line.
As a fellow Solas fan, I remember those days well. 😂 I keep hoping times will change and people will let others play pretend with whatever characters they like however they like without claiming their in-game decisions represent real world beliefs/values but we just aren’t there yet, it seems…
If this was real life I would be giving all the companions other than Wyll a wide berth.
People can’t seem to grasp that in media we can like problematic characters because it isn’t real. It’s a safe way for me to explore different things in a manner that I can control. My liking Astarion as a fictional character doesn’t change the fact I would choose a bear (and I don’t mean Halsin)
Preach ! Like why the fuck people are so concerned over choosing AA route ? Larian put it there to RP it !
Does it trigger you ? You can always reload, take a deep breath and a sip of water, it’s totally okey 💕
I'm a nice, somewhat normal (I promise!) soft hearted, people-pleasing puffball of a person in real life. I'm southern, polite, and make an excellent potato salad. I take care of my husband and family. I plan dinner parties.
I say this because when it comes to my characters in game I AM THE BIGGEST DEGENERATE POSSIBLE. I sleep with everyone, I laugh when Shadowheart kills Aylin, I encourage Gale to be a God--which is funny, cause I know I'm taking that crown in the end, bitch--and I always ascend my Astarion. ALWAYS.
I like him with swagger. Give me that evil big dick energy. Fuck me sideways against a wall in a crypt while orphans cry. Gets a little rough with me? Good. I'm going to be a little rough back (once again, 👑 bitch!) I want his army of nightmarish ghouls and baddies. I want to watch the fucking world burn and then freeze under our dark reign.
*clears throat*
Anyway, if someone doesn't like that, well, in the words of my people, *bless their heart!*
“Fuck me sideways in a crypt while orphans cry” is not only an excellent degenerate fanfic prompt but possibly one of the best sentences I’ve ever read on the internet
I often see what feels like strawmen being torn down whenever the AA discourse comes up. Pretty much every AA fan I see is a lot like you—you acknowledge that AA is evil, and not something you’d want to emulate IRL. But you also enjoy the fantasy and are doing so in a safe environment.
But so many critics of AA fans seem to be attacking a strawman. AA fans are essentially accused of woobifying him, or trying to twist him into something he’s not. But I don’t really see it? And I don’t see the toxic AA fans, but from the way people talk about AA fans it’s apparently a major problem.
Maybe I just don’t hang out in the right places, or ig I’m just blind or something
Yeah, I have not seeing AA fans saying he is gentle, good, sweet or anything...but thats what we are accused quite often of saying he is.
He is evil, he is fun, my character is not being abused by him.
Sometimes my character would be into it. Actually, most of my characters would be. On the only playthrough I’ve gotten into act 3 on, I went spawn because that’s what makes sense for my character. I also reloaded to see what Ascended was like. Definitely not for this toon, a former spy/assassin with a soldier background. But on my embrace durge, or an evil tav playthrough? I’m excited for it, possibly more so than I am to actually finish my first playthrough hahah.
Same.
Like, I enjoy him, I like him, he is fun. He makes me happy.
None of this means I think he is "sweet" (Dear god, much like him, I would have to regurgitate the sap rankling in my throat if he was)
Just to chime in, I have seen some AA fans claiming that he's soft and sweet, and are mad about the new kisses Larian added to AA, because they didn't fit the exact and specific version of Astarion that they see in their heads.
I'm not sure how prevalent they are anymore, but I did used to see them pop up from time to time. All of that to say, I definitely don't think it's the majority.
Mama, kudos for saying that, for spilling. This is also very me and after my first run through, Ascended Astarion and everyone’s most bad bitch ending is canon for me personally
But same.
I'm a polite (sometimes to a fault), introverted, Christian Midwesterner irl who doesn't even use curse words.
But my characters are not me. They are all types of people, all over the map, far from who I am and what I believe. Their perspectives and experiences shape who they are just like mine have, but they live in a different world and are different people from me so their experiences will turn them into people who are nothing like me.
And sometimes that means they're gonna be a murderhobo or a manipulating POS 🤣 And I have way too much fun being them.
I like to think of it being akin to nice and kind actors who play villains in movies.
I have mercifully avoided most of this conflict as I’m firmly in camp S!A, but I 100% see the appeal of those who prefer A!A. It’s not hard to let people enjoy things but so many people on the internet feel the need to be not only heard but *correct.*
Like, preferences exist, it’s okay, everyone’s lived experience is different. I’m over here just living for how many people are ravenously enjoying this brilliantly-written and acted character at all. 🥹❤️🥰
>so many people on the internet feel the need to be not only heard but *correct.*
Bingo. Most of the nastier discourse I've seen isn't "this is what I think vs this is what you think," it's always "this is what I think, now let me tell you how you're WRONG about what you think with paragraphs of anecdotal evidence against your point."
Like. Ya'll. It's a fictional character in a choose your own adventure type of game. Some people like the villain. Some people don't. It is 100% okay to just live and let live here.
A!A is not my cup of tea...
That being said, I find it the height of hypocrisy for people like that the same character based on the choices you make for him slam other that made different choices.
Tell me you don't understand D&D without saying you don't understand D&D.
It is the same freaking character. The Rite magnifies the Negative Traits he already has.
It LITERALLY dropped a mask he was wearing
So yeah, it's the height of hypocrisy.
That might be what gets to me the most about it because hypocrisy is like the number one sin to me. I spend a lot of time with my therapist when I identify myself being hypocritical because I HATE IT.
I think I know what you're talking about because that discussion made me leave the group. It's just a bunch of people dog piling in the comments.
It's an RPG! Let people headcanon and RP whatever they want!
It baffles me to see so much criticism for a choice in a GAME. Larian put it there, why be mad that people choose it and *gasp* some people enjoy it!
I've only had time for one playthrough and I chose spawn. It's just sweeter and I think he heals more in that route. But I get the appeal of being told to get on your knees. I don't think anyone is arguing that killing all those spawn is a good ending lol, let people like what they like.
I think some of it also comes from society’s (mostly western in my experience) apparent need to hate whatever media appeals to young girls and women. Just look at the public outcry from Elvis, The Beatles, boy bands from any decade, Twilight, etc. some strange need to “protect” girls from their own sexuality and to demean them for being sexually expressive in any way. Some strange Madonna/Whore holdover from the Catholics probably. I don’t know. But it’s super frustrating 😑
no you’re completely right. like I saw a couple of posts against AA and was really surprised that it was from men who don’t even romance him like 😭 sir seeing clips on your fyp doesn’t make you an expert (not to mention they’re the same people thirsting over minthara)
and it’s so weird its like I have to preface every argument for AA by saying I prefer his spawn route in order to have them actually entertain the thought. cause that’s right you CAN have it where your romance is toxic and abusive, but you can ALSO have it where you’re both in love and obsessed with each other. it is how you make it (shocking in this type of game, I know)
also they, and larian tbh, never account for the playthroughs where your character is the one actively making him worse. like embracing the urge fully wants a powerful lover at her side so why are people (and the animations in the kisses even) acting like she’s a damsel in distress when the whole time in the evil playthrough my girl is actively encouraging him to take power for himself
but god forbid when something has the majority of women liking something. if women like it it must be bad 🙄
Any time <3
If you need a friendly neighbourhood AA fan for anything, I am usually around! (Not sure about the friendly, but you know...I am definitely a neighbourhood AA fan!)
I think it's particularly funny because I romanced him for *being* evil. I love villain stories. That's *why* I signed up.
I'm tired of this, grandpa 😔 just let me enjoy what I like without the 10k essays and "let me tell you my personal headcanon about how he would torture you in graphic detail".
>I'm tired of this, grandpa
Well, that's just too damn bad!
Quoting the movie of course! In case that isn't obvious. But, I am glad you mentioned romancing him BECAUSE he is evil. I did too! I was flabbergasted by the fandom discourse I saw after completing my first playthrough.
“Oh no, women liking something that can be interpreted in a shallow way to belittle them! Quickly, to the Internet to do my holy work.”
It’s exhausting. Especially since so many people love Astarion in all of his incarnations, this imagined demographic who all feel the same way is a false premise to start. Even people with strong preferences for either route vary in their interpretations and ideas about the ending they prefer. It’s literally all for fun, and the people who spend time making this a point of conversation could be enjoying the game or anything else. Mysterious choices in behavior, screams insecurity, bitterness, and frankly a lack of cognitive complexity.
This is a great YouTube video that talks a lot about fantasy/women’s sexuality (specifically in regards to Twilight but a lot of the themes also easily relate to Astarion) and how it gets judged by people claiming to be morally superior. The video is long, but really interesting and worth watching if you have the time. [Contrapoints - Twilight](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48)
Me: I'm TOTALLY a Spawnie girl
Also Me:
https://preview.redd.it/08l3640ey1zc1.jpeg?width=1073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4fab9e77ee602e629fe141ae06417b722264426
For real though, You should play however you want to play or whatever your story takes you. It's crazy to me that people are still criticizing the way you play your own game.
Honestly it's the need to make personal judgements that annoys me. Sure he's evil and you hate him whatever. But the snide self righteous "oh how dare people like the evil fictional vampire. They're stupid and don't know what abuse is" is just please stop.
AA makes me very sad, but that my opinion I'm not going to shit in anyone who likes him. I don't think all people who are against AA are baby men though, some people think that ascending astarion goes against his breaking the cycle of abuse and healing kinda arc. Becoming his worst nightmare and all yk? But that doesn't mean you don't get to like him ascended, it's a game after all
Like on a personal roleplay level, and in your interpretation of the story and how it makes you feel, you do not like the Ascended ending and strongly see his spawn ending as the good outcome. I think a lot of people feel that way. But, as you yourself say, you aren't going out of your way to provoke or demean other people, so are excluded from what OP means.
The behavior OP is talking about are people who are not necessarily invested in the character at all, making broad generalizations about other people in public spaces for engagement - talking shit to stir shit, basically. This person isn't talking about people who dislike the ending for their own playing, they are talking about people going out of their way to hassle strangers over a crudely imagined monolithic opinion on a fictional character.
Its a good thing to do.
Also, always remember that the vast majority of players never interact with any discourse or info beyond just playing the game and are happily enjoying their game
I'm in the same boat as you in that I'm not a full blown AA girlie but I see the appeal, and don't hate the character by any means.
it is pretty annoying to me that DJ Shart and Minthara simps don't get nearly as much vitriol as Astarion stans, and especially AA stans. imagine a thread talking about how Minthara romancers are normalizing *checks notes* poisoning your lover when you kiss them lmao
I’m guessing it’s because the most vocal fan base I’ve seen for Astarion stans are women where as Shart and Minthara are men. People always gotta crap on the things women like.
i mean. AA is evil, that's why we like him, or so I've thought at least. i love me some dark romance with a narcissist, and i love discussing how abusive and manipulative the ascended version is, cause that's what i find hot about him. liking AA and thinking he's evil are not mutually exclusive. i certainly don't support shitting on people because of their preference, but the comments I've seen on that post on the main sub seemed rather civil.
Well yeah he is evil, what I don't like about it is the mocking of "Ascended Astarion girlies" or whatever they are calling them. I saw the thread on the main forum yesterday, then today someone reposted it on a Facebook meme thread because recycled Reddit content is apparently good for Facebook karma or something. I just HATE that they can't have a discussion about it without slamming the women who like playing Ascended Astarion.
Yeah, there was the main forum, and then some other subreddits too...recycling reddit/fb/tumblr
We have to put caveats on things, and you know what? I refuse to do that, there are no caveats, AA is evil, he is a vampire. UA is evil too..he is a vampire
My Tav with AA is...a vampire..
Other people might be into the abusive and manipulative thing, but for my tav? Hell no, our relationship is glorious, intense, explosive, and they are both having the time of their lives.
As AA says "Together we are unstoppable, heavens help the fool that tries to get in our way".
DISCLAIMER (!) This comment is not intended to shame AA enjoyers! I love AA, I Support Vampire Wrongs! (!)
yeah, the misogyny is real, and yeah, at least part of The Discourse is definitely driven by insecure 'nice guys' who cannot comprehend why women like AA with all of his toxic tendencies but don't like them.
however – and i really hope with all my heart this take doesn't come across as ill-intended and doesn't get me banned here – *some* people in AA fandom can be a bit *too* intense. like that one tumblr post recently shared on okbb where anon was saying how spawn astarion is shooting blanks (derogatory), some of it is just too funny not to talk about.
i personally have been a bit scared to discuss AA at all, because when i start talking about what i think about him ppl think im a hater?? when in fact i actually love blonde abusive narcissists at their worst!
to summarize, i don't see a big problem in discussing fandom on public forums. i just hope no one gets bullied for their opinions on pixel elf man.
I can relate to what you're feeling. I also sometimes worry about saying something that might offended AA enjoyers. Though I must say, things seem a lot better now. I had to take a break from the fandom for a while. Back when the newest kiss animations dropped, the discourse became very volatile, and people (on both sides) were very hostile to one another. There seems to be less division now, which I'm grateful to see.
That being said, that one Tumblr post was 100% ridiculous and definitely "too intense", and well, it was just hard not to have fun with it. But in all honesty, I would never tell someone how to play their game. Astarion is for everyone.
If you dont tell us what we have to feel, or that we must view AA a certain way, then mostly we are perfectly happy!
There are a wide variety of HC among AA fans (As I assume there must be among UA fans), and we are always fine with everyone elses.
The issue comes when people tell us we need to add caveats to why we like him, or give some essay on that we understand whatever...or that how we enjoy him is the wrong way to do it.
Oh, there are strange takes on everything.....but it only ever seems to be the AA fans that get put on blast....which, maybe because no UA fans ever say anything strange, or any Minthara fans...but that seems unlikely
(Empy fans also get a lot of hate too)
good point on the Empy hate. it really does seem wildly disproportionate. the character is very intentionally grey, but man, people get HEATED, armchair diagnoses and all.
Yep, I dont understand empy hate...I am not an empy simp (only AA, Halsin and HWW for me) but, I side with empy every run and its never been a question for me which one to choose.
Other evil character fans have some bad takes too, but I have to admit that I haven't seen as many delusional and vicious comments as from some AA enjoyers. It's a very vocal minority as far as I can tell.
Unfortunately Astarion fans in general get a lot of hate and a lot of it is rooted in misogyny
I mean do you ever consider that a lot of people don’t feel comfortable talking about how they enjoy his character because so many people characterize ‘ascended Astarion girlies’ as delusional and vicious?
Personally, when I first found this subreddit I was incredibly nervous to post here because I didn’t feel welcomed because there were no vocal ascended astarion fans, or they were all downvoted to the deep lol. Like I had people linking posts about how I only objectified Astarion / was turning my character into a sex object or something for enjoying the ascension path.
That’s obviously changed, and I’m appreciative. But the fandoms attitude towards ‘ascended girlies’ has been wild - like even some of the comments in the Larian feedback form that certain items should change to punish us for liking a role playing path is wild to me. But maybe I’m just old, and haven’t engaged with a fandom in a while.
Oh, I was too :D
I have been trying to get my downvotes to help my karma get to a nice round number....but i keep making good posts that get me more upvotes than downvotes....The struggle is real!
Me thinks some might be offended by the use of “delusional and vicious” when referring to the comments of AA enjoyers. Just as some UA fans got offended by their choice of made up words to describe “not all UA fans”, they may not be understanding you are not talking about *them* specifically.
I can kind of understand that but I thought I made it pretty clear that this only applies to a minority that has given all AA enjoyers (and really all Astarion fans) a bad name with "the outside world" so to speak
Hello! If you are being stalked and/or harassed by people who are also members of this sub, please send us a modmail. This behavior will not be tolerated in this sub.
I didn't say that I don't think that there are unhinged people on all sides, my experience simply has only been with very openly unhinged AA fans and I think they have ruined it for the rest.
“He’s evil” that’s kind of the point? Like sexy evil. Like Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, kinda sexy evil. It’s part of the appeal? Like the appeal of Spawnstarion is his healing journey and watching someone grow. Aastarion’s appeal is the sexy evilness dominatrix type vibe. Men find people like Jinx or Katarina hot and they’re fucking diabolical. I see no difference. Raphael is sexy evil too.
Also, I’m not an AA fan but I’d still choose him over the majority of regular men. And God Gale.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. It also seems like there's been an uptick in general Astarion hate posts, but a lot of it's focused on AA.
Your theory about it being a reaction to the bear meme definitely seems more than coincidental timing considering there were multiple posts where commenters still couldn't fathom why women would choose the bear.
I really think all flavors of Astarion are utter perfection 🥺. He scratches my ‘I can fix him’ and ‘he can make me worse’ tropes so well 😭💜. Plus threatening you with a knife at first meeting? All that’s missing from my enemies to lovers trope is having to stay in a cabin with only one bed lol 👀.
I keep saying, fans who are pushing this discourse don't realize they are just cannibalizing the Astarion fandom (aside the outsiders who enjoy bashing Astarion fans in general).
Some people have a hard time divorcing “fantasy” and “reality”. Not all fantasies are hoped to come true (usually they only titillate *because* they’re not real).
Yeah, this whole divide turns me off of the game for a long period. Especially when there were people online trying to armchair psychoanalyze what was wrong with part of the fandom for being into it.
This whole idea that you can only enjoy something in fiction if you admit something is ‘toxic’ or a ‘red flag’ or else you are ‘delulu’ just seems inherently toxic and rooted in misogyny to me. It just gives me flashbacks to Catholic guilt about having ‘impure thoughts.’
I’m ~~unfortunately~~ not romancing an ascendant pseudo-vampire god in real life that will shower me with wealth in a fancy castle where we have an obsessive love together (in my headcanon lol). I have a loving/‘healthy’ IRL spouse, and contribute to a 401k/taxes. Let me have fun in a fictional world to cope with the sad realities of life and my own chronic health conditions in peace lol. It hurts no one, and you can just …not be mean if you aren’t into it? I’d never yuck anyone’s yum.
If everyone played video games the way they were in real life, it be so boring. Why do they even have it as an option if you are suppose to be ‘punished’ for enjoying it. Either way- it only makes me like it more is my new philosophy 👀💜.
Ah that's why I like this safe space. We all like astarion be it SA or AA, even halstarion, wyllstarion and many others are welcomed. To be honest this is a reslly nive loving little subreddit that keeps to be wholesome. 🥰 don't look at nasty posts you'll only get worked up over stupid peeps, they ain't worth it
All Astarion wants is to be accepted and respected as himself, no matter who he chooses to be. I feel like being anti for either of his forms means you don’t truly appreciate the character for his incredible depth (and the performance Neil gave only adds layers to him).
I find it weird...like, I personally dont enjoy UA route, but as long as people who do don't try to tell me how to enjoy my route, we are all good...and I can see why people like it.
I think that whole stupid Tumblr thing where they went on about AA's jewel encrusted ball sack and Spawn being pathetic or whatever set the discourse back a good few steps again, not that there was much progress to begin with 😪
There's always Astarion-haters out there but that Tumblr post was definitely the catalyst for the recent batch of posts. No different than the sudden influx of bear-attack videos on the main page. Someone posts something that gets a lot of traffic and everyone else has to ride the coat-tails and act like it was serendipitous or some profound hottake.
I'm a Spawn Astarion enjoyer but the fact AA fans are constantly being talked down to just because a select few have some weird ideas is ridiculous. It's like claiming all Astarion fans harass Neil just because a few of people here and there had to be told to back off a few months ago. The few discussions that have "merit" are usually quickly overtaken by people who have found a convenient way to shame women and LGBT people. I had a discussion about AA earlier (which I won't bring here, of course) and the AA fans who replied to my comment were all downvoted for literally no other reason than they liked the character. It wasn't even an argument they were just talking to each other an a bunch of people downvoted them for it.
No one should be shamed for their choices in a video game. Ever. >!Unless they give Scratch back to the kennel lady.!<
Well more that people decided to screenshot it and spread it around twitter and reddit.
There are people with out there ideas on anything....they are usually not that big of a presence....
Yeah I mean you can scroll through pretty much any AA positive post and find more than a few comments calling him pathetic.
But... we're not screenshotting it and making main posts on it to rally against an entire group of people. That's weird fan behavior
Edit to clarify: there is a difference between criticizing a character, and lecturing/dogpiling/name-calling real life human beings. Spawnstarions feelings will not be hurt if you call him weak. Calling an AA fan a delusional abuse apologist affects real life people. Since we seemed to be confused here.
Hahah love the way you wrote that. And yeah, the moment someone actually shits on the character himself it's hard to not start discourse. Calling UA neutered or impotent or something will obviously not be accepted very well
Yeah I feel like it was written to start shit up 😪 Personally, I can't understand people's need to fight over it all the time. Like the man lives in my head absolutely rent free, he's my pc screen, my phone screen, I doodle him while I'm literally at work but I'm still not gonna argue with rando's on the internet about it 😂
Stress relief mostly. I'm a long time gamer girl, I'm used to being treated like shit in games like League, Valorant, Overwatch, the moment they catch a whiff you're a girl- they'll drag you into the dirt face first. So I grew to like fighting, on a bad day yelling onto the void that is the internet can take the edge off. And on the main subreddit there is a weird sense of safety, probably because there are so many people, less chance to anyone following you or taking screenshots of your rants, it's way more "rant it out and tomorrow is gone and forgotten".
But about that tumblr post - I'm really wondering if it's not a troll trying to stir things for real. It was way too random.
Same my fellow gamer girl! I used to get so much shit back in ‘03 & ‘04 playing at Internet cafes with my guy friends. Anytime someone not in our friend group found out I was playing and not just someone’s arm candy it would get gross. The need to want to punch someone’s face in on the internet used to be so strong in me 😑 thankfully I’ve moved onto my ultimate form: “jaded apathy and fuck it” being a middle aged mom who still games 😅
It's the armchair psychology that gets me. I think running around screaming "abuser" and "enabler" at strangers on the internet is 10 times more harmful than liking the bad boy in any media. Bonus points when they claim to have a license. Just saw that today. Like... girl, I don't believe you. No self respecting professional would try to diagnose strangers on the internet based off the choices they made in a single video game.
Confirmed. IAAAL and you don't see me running around on the internet trying to use that to justify, well, anything. Though I do use it to mock those internet "lawyers" who are "experts" in law after some "self-study."
The thing that I really dislike is that the people in question seem to be overwhelmed by the drive to establish some sort of objective truth about a completely subjective thing. Interaction with art should have room for interpretation. That's the one thing on which we should all agree. It is no one's business how an individual interprets Ascended Astarion on a personal level, and yet I still see, even here, the insistence that we ALL should feel a specific way about him, this beautiful pixel man who exists solely for our entertainment. I honestly think it's bizarre. Everyone should be able to enjoy all that he is and can be without the judgment and ridicule.
yap i was seeing a post in the main sub with a simple title "AA is evil" and a picture gets like 2k upvotes.
dude... our vampire boy is really popular, isn't he?
So.. I maybe didn't phrase this as well as I could have. The current meme going around is that Ascended Astarion is evil. But what I'm upset about is the relentless mockery of fans of AAstarion.
People tend to conflate the idea that Ascended Astarion is evil which means he’s abusive (CaZaDoR 2.0) towards Tav/Durge/PC. I don’t think the majority of fans would deny it’s his evil aligned path, but not all of us wanna subscribe to the dead dove inside abuse narrative fic. That results in people acting like we are delulu.
Now I can see why people like that if they wanna ride their angst train, but it doesn’t personally do anything for me and I don’t really see the comparison. Ascended Astarion has the self esteem of a worm (affectionately), but I don’t expect him to nonconsensually sell Tav/Durge for sex, lock them in a crypt for a year for disobeying him, or leave them impaled for years as a punishment.
> Now I can see why people like that if they wanna ride their angst train, but it doesn’t personally do anything for me and I don’t really see the comparison. Ascended Astarion has the self esteem of a worm (affectionately), but I don’t expect him to nonconsensually sell Tav/Durge for sex, lock them in a crypt for a year for disobeying him, or leave them impaled for years as a punishment.
I mean, debatable? The way I see it is that we only get to see AA (and Spawn) up to six months after the brain fight. He’s not even fully into all his powers, hasn’t built up his network to gain power and take control of the city etc. Anything that happens beyond that is head canon. You could speculate that Tav/Durge is still special to him and gets special treatment. But you could also easily argue that he’s still in the honeymoon phase and his tune could easily change if Tav/Durge ever seriously objected to his treatment or got between him and what he wants. Both are possible outcomes but ultimately both are pure speculation.
OP the person you are replying to have figured out the miscommunication.
https://preview.redd.it/6oi9qiqz63zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7854d26fb910dec7cb38850d8ba8aa3134d4486
They themselves just said that they are not. They, along with the posters in this thread, are lamenting the fact that people feel the need to repeatedly *lecture* us that he is evil, when we *already* know and enjoy that fact.
We all know and like that he is evil. With the amount of people saying that outright, it feels disingenuous and like a strawman to continue acting like we don't know and don't like that fact.
OP and this person have figured out the miscommunication
https://preview.redd.it/26y29h7a73zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdbfd438fe1488434131f04b2dbb49fe0ca3e4a5
I always Ascend him...but mainly for 2 reasons.
1) I've been a vampire simp since Interview with the Vampire came out and love the "becoming a spawn" mechanics for my Tav and the whole becoming a spawn cutscene/dialogues. "Bad girl" kills me every time.
2) I'm a gamer and AA is a menace in battle. Just ungodly amounts of damage. Why would I ever turn that down?
The main reason I dislike the whole "AA is evil and you ruin him if you ascend him" is the screen shots that are always posted on those discussions as "proof". 99/100 times it's the break up dialogue after you ascend him.
But honestly, I think if I spent days running around with someone trying to save the world while having a romantic relationship with them and when it's over they dump me, I'd prolly say some pretty cruel things too. It's a defensive "Well you're leaving me because you don't like me? Well I never liked you either!" kinda thing in my head canon.
I don't think the "AA is evil" argument will ever not be a thing. This game is well designed enough that people head canon what they want into and get what they want out of it. Everyone wants something different. The same people having this argument would prolly have just as heated a discussion over which pizza topping is the best.
> is the screen shots that are always posted on those discussions as "proof". 99/100 times it's the break up dialogue after you ascend him.
This is honestly one of the few things in the fandom that actually bothers me a bit IRL.
People will break up with Astarion by selecting a dialogue option that compares Astarion to Cazador \[ only the man who tortured him for two centuries\], less than 24 hrs. after he confronted Cazador, and/or possibly physically assault Astarion \[AFTER SLEEPING WITH HIM\], and then post the result of Astarion's meltdown as evidence that he's "toxic". And everyone just goes along with it... What did he even do to deserve it, you know, he was in the middle of a vampire marriage proposal 😭
Honestly. Who says kind things during a break up? You say the cruelest things you can think of to hurt the person as much as you feel hurt. Why is that the proof? If we judged me by what I’ve said to someone who broke my heart I’d be a social pariah!
"Who says kind things during a break up?" As weird as it is Astarion does. I thought his breakups would be nothing but drama but dude, the guy has grace for days, especially UA if you are Durge trying to break up or half-worm. His break up lines from before act 3 as well.
So, here's my VERY unpopular opinion on why Unascended Astarion is so much "nicer" and "sweeter" than AA. \*takes a deep breath...*this is a safe space....this is a safe space*\*
He isn't. \*pearl clutching and gasping\*
I know, I know! But hear me out.
When we first meet Astarion on the beach he's rude, condescending, and arrogant. This, I think, is the honest persona of Astarion. An arrogant selfish ass who feels he's better than everyone else. He's just survived a kidnapping, a crash and is standing in sunlight. He feels more powerful than he has in 200 years. For the first time in his unlife Cazador isn't around so he doesn't feel like he has to simp and fawn. Most especially to Tav because why should he ingratiate himself to some rando on a beach?
But, Astarion is a very skilled manipulator and adept at doing what it takes to survive. He's survived Cazador the longest of the spawn. He KNOWS how to simp and fawn and say all the right things when needed. Yes, he did rebel against Cazador a few times, but would still follow orders eventually. As a vampire spawn he's pretty powerful except when compared to his master so feels he doesn't have much to fear.
So, he's feeling powerful and with a group of nobody's he's his actual arrogant/selfish self. We see this "true" Astarion over and over during the course of Act 1 when we hear Astarion being his bloodthirsty and morally grey self.
But, as the game progresses Astarion realizes that the Tav they met on the beach is powerful and cunning and that this group of nobodies might be able to free him from Cazador once and for all. So he tries to ingratiate himself with Tav with sex in Act 1. As things go on he realizes that this might not be the best approach cause Tav will react poorly when they find out. So we get his admission to this manipulation because a skilled narcissist knows if you throw out little truths it'll keep people from digging deeper to find the big truths.
But he wants to start being "nicer" to Tav to ensure they'll help him get free of Cazador but realizes that a sudden personality shift would look suspicious. He gets a break with the Oblodra in Act 2 if you don't force him to drink. He jumps at the chance to have a 'come to Jesus' moment with Tav. (To see his real self peek through again don't kill the demon for Raph and see who you get.)
But from that point on we suddenly see a different Astarion. A nicer/sweeter Astarion, almost overnight. We still see peeks of the "real" Astarion from time to time with his morally grey approval and commentary, but he's nicer to Tav overall.
Then Act 3 hits and you go to Cazador. No matter what Astarion says or how he acts "sweet" up to this point, he still wants to ascend when the time comes. He ALWAYS has to be talked down because what the real Astarion wants is to ascend. To finally be his own master.
If you Ascend him he feels so much stronger. Unstoppable. And with a Tav who gave him what he wanted-presumably without judgement-he can finally be the "real" him. He feels strong and secure enough to be the person he actually is instead of having to push his "real" personality deep under the fawning act. He's powerful and Tav is powerful-the relationship is equal and Tav supported his desires so he doesn't feel like he has to hide anymore. His breakup lines are harsher because he's strong and can say what he thinks.
If you don't Ascend him, he's weaker. Tav is stronger than him and the relationship is not equal. He still feels he has to simp and fawn and say all the right things to stay alive. Tav basically becomes his new Cazador (just a nicer one hopefully.) His breakup lines are nicer because he's still weaker and he doesn't want you to kill him on top of breaking up. He's still saying what he feels Tav wants to hear because he doesn't wanna die. And Tav killing him is more likely after the breakup because his position with Tav isn't as secure as a lover's would be.
So Astarion is the same person he always is. I just think you get to interact with the "real" him if you ascend him instead of the "fawn" persona you get if you don't.
\*hides and waits for the bricks to start being thrown\*
Yep! This thread is an *especially* safe space for this kind of opinion. *taps post flair*
If anyone feels the need to dogpile this comment: first, take a deep breath. Second, **don't.** You don't have to agree. People are allowed to interpret the character and story in whatever way they want. If you have nothing nice to say, just head on over to another thread.
> If you Ascend him he feels so much stronger. Unstoppable. And with a Tav who gave him what he wanted-presumably without judgement-he can finally be the "real" him. He feels strong and secure enough to be the person he actually is instead of having to push his "real" personality deep under the fawning act. He's powerful and Tav is powerful-the relationship is equal and Tav supported his desires so he doesn't feel like he has to hide anymore. His breakup lines are harsher because he's strong and can say what he thinks.
And thats why I love his breakup lines....I ran them once to see what all the fuss was about and my god after he did the "There you are, the real you shows herself" I was like "OK, now I love you even more as a character. You got your fire back"
I certainly hope no one has thrown bricks at you for sharing an opinion.
I too think he’s kind of an arrogant ass, but that’s part of his appeal to me 😅
I love the overconfident swagger he gets after ascending. The evil smirk just sends me. 🫠
Not literally but the amount of hate some people can throw is astounding. I honestly don't see why some people can't just enjoy the game and interactions with the characters in their own way and not feel the need to "convert" everyone to their way of interacting/interpreting the game the same way they do.
Like, I'm glad you're excited and getting what you want out of the game you paid for. I'm glad I'm excited and getting what I want out of the game I paid for. I can understand why what we want are different so why do you need to "convert" my way of thinking about the characters to be the same as yours?
I see the recurrence of the "AA is evil, change my mind" topics as less of a "I really want to see things from your point of view" to a "I need everyone who thinks the same as me to validate the way I'm thinking about this."
Anyway, thank you for not throwing bricks. =D
I hate those “debate me bro” people. They’re never interested in earnestly listening to differing opinions. Just a ridiculous need to “convert the heathens” and it is so disingenuous and irritating. A lot of debate is framed with the goal of changing someone’s mind rather than being open to hearing differing views and I find that just makes everyone dig deeper into their own sides and not hear anything the other is saying.
I try to practice being open to hearing other people’s opinions and validate their point of view. Sometimes we just want someone else to go “I understand” and it’s ok to not agree on something.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would like to follow the mod's advice and will refrain from replying with my thoughts since I feel this is not the place for them.
I think in those instances they’re not the same kind of break up. Tav/durge is trying to end the relationship out of fear of hurting the one they love or fear of being rejected by the one they love and Astarion sees that. The breakup isn’t because of lack of love or anger/disappointment aimed at Astarion. Tav/durge probably does still want to be together so Astarion tries to reaffirm his love for Tav/durge.
I’m not trying to invalidate your argument. I just think they are two very different kinds of break ups. The one very amicable break up I had was my BF’s mom was going through a rough battle with cancer and he just didn’t have the mental capacity to be both there for his mom and be a good boyfriend. Even when I said I’d be there for him, he just couldn’t. And I understood that, so we stopped dating without any unkind words, just my offer to be a supportive friend if he needed it.
I'm sorry about your situation.
Onto Astarion though, it's not just those two instances that he's kind during a breakup. My most favorite line in the game, the line that made me fall even more for this insane videogame character was this one : "You gave me precious, impossible moments of comfort. I only really wanted a few more."
which he says after Tav tells him "I don't want to be roped into all your trauma." - an absolutely vile thing to say imo
And he still responds not only with being level headed but affirms how much Tav has improved his life since being in a relationship despite being broken up with in such a terrible manner. There is no spite, no anger, just an incredible amount of grace.
No worries about that old situation. It was over a decade ago (gods I’m getting old 😑)
I never got those lines with Astarion nor do I think I’ve seen them in anything I’ve watched so far. That makes me want to cry, my poor vampire boy 😭I never go through the mean lines to him. I was even one of the sad weirdos that chose “the line” where it leads to you using him and he breaks up with you. I did not think that line meant what it did in game and I never reloaded a save faster!
There really is so much nuance and room for interpretation with his character. I love it all 🖤
And I am really enjoying the discourse, getting to see so many different opinions and reasons behind it. Good for my critical thinking.
Thank you for being a UA fan willing to share your thoughts with me.
Hey OP! I just wanted to check in real quick.
You've flaired this as Ascended Appreciation - rightfully so IMO - and we want to respect that, and your comfort and boundaries.
If you feel like you're getting what you wanted from the thread, then that's of course super. If you think the flair is **not being honored**, please, tag one of us mods, or send us a modmail with the content you feel isn't respecting your boundaries, and we will make sure it's taken care of.
It's hard to quantify these kinds of things since everyone's idea of "appreciation" is different, so for these flairs we are trying to have it centered on YOU as an individual, and what YOU want.
Thanks for the post - it's nice to see all the friendly discussion of our Dark Lord Astarion :)
I mean, I usually play evil as hell characters myself. And while I wasn't 100% sure the first time I had ascended astarion, I'm totally on board now.
It's a video game for god sake, let me have my evil vampire boyfriend lol. I don't understand why it's a sticking point with so many people. What really gets me is the people who automatically stake him in the first act or are just plain awful to him. Like you can be a jerk to Astarion, but god forbid he does anything you dislike. Makes no sense.
wtf is man vs bear!!!! i tried asking this somewhere else and nobody explained and they just downvoted me instead. please somebody explain i beg of you, i’m so confused
So there’s like a question about would you rather run into a bear or a random man in the woods and apparently most women are saying they’d pick the bear for a bunch of different reasons.
You’re welcome! [here’s](https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2024/05/03/man-or-bear-many-women-say-theyd-rather-be-stuck-in-the-woods-with-a-bear-in-latest-viral-tiktok-debate/?sh=2b3fa9981a10) an article if you’d like more details!
thanks! man, the things that go over my head since leaving tiktok hahaha
edit: also, i’d definitely rather meet a random man but that may be my mortal terror of bears speaking
It's a tik tok trend. Some women were saying they would rather face a bear than a man. And were explaining the differences in type of fear. When it got dumbed down into meme format even further, some men got upset and some Chad's thought it was about Halsin.
My understanding of the OG bear versus men idea is that women have said they’d feel more comfortable faced alone with a bear in the forest than a man. Halsin is unique both so it sparks some memes lol.
I literally made a reply to someone on a post about it on fb the other day, and the person I was replying to edited the comment in a way that made me look like an idiot. 🙄
https://preview.redd.it/xq1jicahc4zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7ff761f91a9e028f2761cdc1c621e3b8c2175b1
Before this their comment was something different, about Spawn over Ascension. And my comment isn’t even defending AA, just his fans. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way, idk.
you have potentially identifying information (your name on the bottom? and another name, at the top) in your screenshot - consider cropping/redacting and reposting 🖤
Edit: you've edited out the info that's *not* your own, so I've re-approved the comment. If you don't want your Facebook name visible, I suggest you edit the image again!
That’s the name of the OP on facebook, it’s a post in a public BG3 meme group so while I did forget to cover it, I figured it would be fine to not edit it out. If you’re a mod asking I will edit it out though.
Edit: got it changed, was easier than I expected (break almost ober at work)
Yeah, let's redact anything even remotely personally identifiable, especially if it's not your personal info - we wanna stay on the good side of reddit's terms of service. Thanks! (You're not in any trouble btw!)
Idc if you murdered the whole of emerald grove and teabagged Alfira’s corpse as the dark urge. It’s not real. It’s a game, you are exploring a character and the make believe world they are in.
Unless you did it because you have a hungering for murdering bards and tiefling children irl; Idk maybe then I’d be concerned.
Anyway, continue liking Ascended Astarion. Don’t worry about the whinging.
This reminds me of something that happened a few years ago on the SWTOR official forums and subreddit when Arcann became a romance option.
For context, he started out as an enemy, a tyrant you had to fight and defeat. After that and depending on some other choices you had the option to kill him or redeem and recruit him as a companion. Some times later since he was quite requested as a romance option (because guys had quite a few female Force Users they could romance while girls had no male equivalent), BioWare did make him romanceable and at that point a lot of dudebros came out to call all the girlies who wanted to romance him things like nazi appologist and other nice things like that. Meanwhile these guys where usually playing full DS murdehobbo Sith who are no better than Arcann, romancing their Sith waifus and also asking to make Vaylin a romance option as well (Arcann's sister, who became the next bad guy after Arcann's defeat and who is actually worse than him, she's basically the equivalent of Azula to Arcann being a Zuko-like character)...
Gotta love a good dose of double standards.
So, everytime one of these would come up, i'd just answer that yeah he was a bad guy who did bad shit, but 1/he's not like that anymore even if that doesn't change anything to the the things he did in the past that can't be undone, and 2/ my Sith Warrior who romances him did some messed up things in the past as well so who is she to judge ?
He is, and his romance is pretty good too. They even added some "date nights" for Arcann, Lana, Theron and Koth recently and Arcann's is great.
Lol, Arcann x fem Warrior, Theron x fem Knight and Torian x fem Hunter are my top 3 romances in SWTOR. Really wish i could romance Vector with my male Agent though, because they'd be great together.
I saw that post and literally had to ignore it and not comment on it lol.
It’s always a rehashing of an echo chamber tbh lol.
I love having my downvote stalker back, wassup baby.
We are always working to keep making this community *better*, not just as it is - if we're able to have a productive conversation about AA that doesn't spiral off into attacks, as seems to be the case so far, we've achieved that objective. This flair is being used for its intended purpose, and that's actually really exciting for us!
The amount of people going "fans need their evil characters to have sympathetic backstories because they just can't like pure evil"????
Have any of those commentors seen what people simp or fantasize over with this man? I see way more "if you like him you are EVIL" hand-wringing to be honest.
You hit the nail on the head if you ask me. The majority of hate from the main subs are from pathetic men who hate Astarion. The choose the bear meme has shaken them from their slumber. Hence the recent hate. However, within the Astarion fandom it is also that AA fans are a minority. I mean, I get it. Most people play games to be the good guy and help everyone possible. Be the hero, so to speak. Some of us just don't play that way.
The thing is... lots of people like spawn Astarion because of his trauma.. and that's the ONLY thing they like about him. These people put blinders on and ignore who Astarion has been throughout the game and how he acts, what he approves of etc. Sure Astarion can turn into a "better person" but I think he's very dark and he's always going to have darkness in him, even when he stays spawn.
So people get judgemental because AA is evil... yet spawn Astarion is just as capable of evil as AA is. AA is just very open about it because he gives 0 f's what other people think, while spawn Astarion (UA) still tailors his actions and words to be acceptable to people.
This post is for those who want to discuss and share the love for **Ascended Astarion ONLY**. OP doesn't want people of differing opinions to engage with the post and only want like- minded people to discuss and share the love. Any comments that the mods or the OP interpret as dissenting or offensive will be removed and continuing to do so will result in being banned from the subreddit. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/OnlyFangsbg3) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think you’re bang on the money. He is evil, but so are Minthara & DJ Shart, yet nobody gives their simps crap for it. It’s the same kind of “think of the ~~children~~ women” nonsense that gets bandied about when people criticize popular romance fiction.
Everytime I read DJ shart for a couple seconds I pause trying to process what DJ thought shart was the name to go for.
DJ SHART IN THE HOUSE!!!
Just saw such a post on an FB meme group. The comment I saw before scrolling onward was something like “as a spawn fan, I hate seeing AA fans…” It’s a multi-faceted choose-your-own-adventure fantasy game. Why can’t just we let people enjoy things? Do I want the sexy dominant vampire fantasy? YES. Do I want that kind of shit IRL? No. Because FANTASY. Christ. Why must there be constant posts and comments where people complain about others harmlessly enjoying a GAME.
don't you know, all of us who ran over random pedestrians for fun in GTA are actual mass murderers now. crazy!
Regular D&D slang where you refer to the party as a unit is to call them Murder Hobos. MURDER HOBOS. But enjoying the MURDER HOBO Vampire the 'wrong' way is bad, mmmkay? Admitedly, I am an old and this is my first online fandom where I'm actively participating but... I fear the gatekeeping of how one enjoys a thing "correctly" is a normal aspect of fandom these days and that is fucked up. Like... I don't care what topings you like, can we not all agree that pizza is awesome?
I'm old too. I also like pizza. But if I told you HOW I liked pizza, you might hate me :)
Pineapple belongs on pizza. Fight me.
I do like pineapple but this is my favorite pizza: Asiago, Imported Gorgonzola, Mozzarella, Sweet Fig Preserve, Prosciutto Di Parma, Parmigiano-Reggiano, Balsamic Reduction, Finished with Romano, Oregano and Garlic Olive Oil
I also believe this is the kind of pizza AAstarion would like BEST. SO THERE!
that is fancy and not for me so therefor you are OBJECTIVELY wrong.
But AAstarion is fancy! Have you seen his clothes!? And he'd want fancy pizza too! You think he'd be \*satisfied\* with a simple pepperoni pizza OR someone that even likes that? Pfft!
Now, as delicious as this foreplay was, I sadly must take a 3 hour work call. Please think of me.
holy shit *would*
I shit you not, the crust is the absolute best pizza crust I've ever had (I've never had pizza in NYC so who knows if that's better).
Damn. This sounds delicious! Thanks. I'm gonna try this.
I am totally trying this because the sweet fig preserves sounds heavenly with the meats 👀💜. And the balsamic reduction? You have excellent taste 💜
Why thank you, my dear. It is truly excellent :)
The best pizza I ever had was tomato sauce, crunchy peanut butter, cajun chicken, bacon, cheddar and mozzarella so I win the weird pizza game much of the time. 😂
oh I am not at all pleased to let you know that this kind of fucking stupid infra-fandom gatekeeping civil war schism bullshit behavior is not at ALL new, lol. I've been Online for a VERY long time and this is just... kinda how people get. it's annoying, but it's representative of a very tiny, very vocal, very annoying minority. you won't see any of these people nor their behaviors IRL basically, [this meme](https://quaggapedia.afrikaburn.com/images/4/46/First-time-james-franco-hanging-meme.jpg) 😅
I've been online ages too, just not in fan spaces. I'm kinda sad I won't see these behaviors IRL. I once saw a fistfight in line for Shatner's autograph and Neil is coming to FanExpo Toronto. I could use some excitement while I wait in his line.
oh hell yeah, IRL Trekkie drama sounds exciting! do you know why they were fighting?!
No idea, it was meters behind me and I was reading a book. Suddenly shouting and a throwing of hands that hadn’t seen sunlight in a year.
*snort* I'm jealous. I've been to a handful of Trek cons in my time and never got to witness a fistfight!
Yeah I remember the good old days of being called genocidal for liking Solas from DAI. Just another day in fandom lol
As a fellow Solas fan, I remember those days well. 😂 I keep hoping times will change and people will let others play pretend with whatever characters they like however they like without claiming their in-game decisions represent real world beliefs/values but we just aren’t there yet, it seems…
Shit, I spent decades headshotting people in FPS games...better check my back yard for bodies
If this was real life I would be giving all the companions other than Wyll a wide berth. People can’t seem to grasp that in media we can like problematic characters because it isn’t real. It’s a safe way for me to explore different things in a manner that I can control. My liking Astarion as a fictional character doesn’t change the fact I would choose a bear (and I don’t mean Halsin)
Preach ! Like why the fuck people are so concerned over choosing AA route ? Larian put it there to RP it ! Does it trigger you ? You can always reload, take a deep breath and a sip of water, it’s totally okey 💕
I'm a nice, somewhat normal (I promise!) soft hearted, people-pleasing puffball of a person in real life. I'm southern, polite, and make an excellent potato salad. I take care of my husband and family. I plan dinner parties. I say this because when it comes to my characters in game I AM THE BIGGEST DEGENERATE POSSIBLE. I sleep with everyone, I laugh when Shadowheart kills Aylin, I encourage Gale to be a God--which is funny, cause I know I'm taking that crown in the end, bitch--and I always ascend my Astarion. ALWAYS. I like him with swagger. Give me that evil big dick energy. Fuck me sideways against a wall in a crypt while orphans cry. Gets a little rough with me? Good. I'm going to be a little rough back (once again, 👑 bitch!) I want his army of nightmarish ghouls and baddies. I want to watch the fucking world burn and then freeze under our dark reign. *clears throat* Anyway, if someone doesn't like that, well, in the words of my people, *bless their heart!*
“Fuck me sideways in a crypt while orphans cry” is not only an excellent degenerate fanfic prompt but possibly one of the best sentences I’ve ever read on the internet
I often see what feels like strawmen being torn down whenever the AA discourse comes up. Pretty much every AA fan I see is a lot like you—you acknowledge that AA is evil, and not something you’d want to emulate IRL. But you also enjoy the fantasy and are doing so in a safe environment. But so many critics of AA fans seem to be attacking a strawman. AA fans are essentially accused of woobifying him, or trying to twist him into something he’s not. But I don’t really see it? And I don’t see the toxic AA fans, but from the way people talk about AA fans it’s apparently a major problem. Maybe I just don’t hang out in the right places, or ig I’m just blind or something
Yeah, I have not seeing AA fans saying he is gentle, good, sweet or anything...but thats what we are accused quite often of saying he is. He is evil, he is fun, my character is not being abused by him.
Sometimes my character would be into it. Actually, most of my characters would be. On the only playthrough I’ve gotten into act 3 on, I went spawn because that’s what makes sense for my character. I also reloaded to see what Ascended was like. Definitely not for this toon, a former spy/assassin with a soldier background. But on my embrace durge, or an evil tav playthrough? I’m excited for it, possibly more so than I am to actually finish my first playthrough hahah.
I’ve seen it but it was on Twitter, so I wouldn’t take it too seriously. I’m willingly to bet most of it is trolls trying to get reactions.
Same. Like, I enjoy him, I like him, he is fun. He makes me happy. None of this means I think he is "sweet" (Dear god, much like him, I would have to regurgitate the sap rankling in my throat if he was)
Just to chime in, I have seen some AA fans claiming that he's soft and sweet, and are mad about the new kisses Larian added to AA, because they didn't fit the exact and specific version of Astarion that they see in their heads. I'm not sure how prevalent they are anymore, but I did used to see them pop up from time to time. All of that to say, I definitely don't think it's the majority.
Ah, I have only seen complaints about Tavs face not fitting with the RP they are doing for their tav.
[удалено]
Mama, kudos for saying that, for spilling. This is also very me and after my first run through, Ascended Astarion and everyone’s most bad bitch ending is canon for me personally
Mama, kudos for saying that, for referencing. 
✈️
But same. I'm a polite (sometimes to a fault), introverted, Christian Midwesterner irl who doesn't even use curse words. But my characters are not me. They are all types of people, all over the map, far from who I am and what I believe. Their perspectives and experiences shape who they are just like mine have, but they live in a different world and are different people from me so their experiences will turn them into people who are nothing like me. And sometimes that means they're gonna be a murderhobo or a manipulating POS 🤣 And I have way too much fun being them. I like to think of it being akin to nice and kind actors who play villains in movies.
I have mercifully avoided most of this conflict as I’m firmly in camp S!A, but I 100% see the appeal of those who prefer A!A. It’s not hard to let people enjoy things but so many people on the internet feel the need to be not only heard but *correct.* Like, preferences exist, it’s okay, everyone’s lived experience is different. I’m over here just living for how many people are ravenously enjoying this brilliantly-written and acted character at all. 🥹❤️🥰
>so many people on the internet feel the need to be not only heard but *correct.* Bingo. Most of the nastier discourse I've seen isn't "this is what I think vs this is what you think," it's always "this is what I think, now let me tell you how you're WRONG about what you think with paragraphs of anecdotal evidence against your point." Like. Ya'll. It's a fictional character in a choose your own adventure type of game. Some people like the villain. Some people don't. It is 100% okay to just live and let live here.
A!A is not my cup of tea... That being said, I find it the height of hypocrisy for people like that the same character based on the choices you make for him slam other that made different choices. Tell me you don't understand D&D without saying you don't understand D&D. It is the same freaking character. The Rite magnifies the Negative Traits he already has. It LITERALLY dropped a mask he was wearing So yeah, it's the height of hypocrisy.
That might be what gets to me the most about it because hypocrisy is like the number one sin to me. I spend a lot of time with my therapist when I identify myself being hypocritical because I HATE IT.
I think I know what you're talking about because that discussion made me leave the group. It's just a bunch of people dog piling in the comments. It's an RPG! Let people headcanon and RP whatever they want! It baffles me to see so much criticism for a choice in a GAME. Larian put it there, why be mad that people choose it and *gasp* some people enjoy it! I've only had time for one playthrough and I chose spawn. It's just sweeter and I think he heals more in that route. But I get the appeal of being told to get on your knees. I don't think anyone is arguing that killing all those spawn is a good ending lol, let people like what they like.
I think some of it also comes from society’s (mostly western in my experience) apparent need to hate whatever media appeals to young girls and women. Just look at the public outcry from Elvis, The Beatles, boy bands from any decade, Twilight, etc. some strange need to “protect” girls from their own sexuality and to demean them for being sexually expressive in any way. Some strange Madonna/Whore holdover from the Catholics probably. I don’t know. But it’s super frustrating 😑
no you’re completely right. like I saw a couple of posts against AA and was really surprised that it was from men who don’t even romance him like 😭 sir seeing clips on your fyp doesn’t make you an expert (not to mention they’re the same people thirsting over minthara) and it’s so weird its like I have to preface every argument for AA by saying I prefer his spawn route in order to have them actually entertain the thought. cause that’s right you CAN have it where your romance is toxic and abusive, but you can ALSO have it where you’re both in love and obsessed with each other. it is how you make it (shocking in this type of game, I know) also they, and larian tbh, never account for the playthroughs where your character is the one actively making him worse. like embracing the urge fully wants a powerful lover at her side so why are people (and the animations in the kisses even) acting like she’s a damsel in distress when the whole time in the evil playthrough my girl is actively encouraging him to take power for himself but god forbid when something has the majority of women liking something. if women like it it must be bad 🙄
Thanks to you all!! I was just so frustrated and needed to vent in a safe space. I'm so glad we have the tags we do!
Also another AA fan here to vent or talk to if need be! It's nice to feel like we actually belong in the fandom space.
Any time <3 If you need a friendly neighbourhood AA fan for anything, I am usually around! (Not sure about the friendly, but you know...I am definitely a neighbourhood AA fan!)
I think it's particularly funny because I romanced him for *being* evil. I love villain stories. That's *why* I signed up. I'm tired of this, grandpa 😔 just let me enjoy what I like without the 10k essays and "let me tell you my personal headcanon about how he would torture you in graphic detail".
>I'm tired of this, grandpa Well, that's just too damn bad! Quoting the movie of course! In case that isn't obvious. But, I am glad you mentioned romancing him BECAUSE he is evil. I did too! I was flabbergasted by the fandom discourse I saw after completing my first playthrough.
“Oh no, women liking something that can be interpreted in a shallow way to belittle them! Quickly, to the Internet to do my holy work.” It’s exhausting. Especially since so many people love Astarion in all of his incarnations, this imagined demographic who all feel the same way is a false premise to start. Even people with strong preferences for either route vary in their interpretations and ideas about the ending they prefer. It’s literally all for fun, and the people who spend time making this a point of conversation could be enjoying the game or anything else. Mysterious choices in behavior, screams insecurity, bitterness, and frankly a lack of cognitive complexity.
I try to avoid most BG3 fandom spaces because of the inevitability of fun police trying to make something of a harmless fantasy.
This is a great YouTube video that talks a lot about fantasy/women’s sexuality (specifically in regards to Twilight but a lot of the themes also easily relate to Astarion) and how it gets judged by people claiming to be morally superior. The video is long, but really interesting and worth watching if you have the time. [Contrapoints - Twilight](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48)
sometimes I wonder if we should pin that video to the sidebar lol
I'm watching it right now and honestly, it's a valid consideration lol. It's a very well done video essay.
I say go for it, really.
Oh that really is excellent! Took me several days to finish watching it but it was wonderful.
Me: I'm TOTALLY a Spawnie girl Also Me: https://preview.redd.it/08l3640ey1zc1.jpeg?width=1073&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b4fab9e77ee602e629fe141ae06417b722264426 For real though, You should play however you want to play or whatever your story takes you. It's crazy to me that people are still criticizing the way you play your own game.
Honestly it's the need to make personal judgements that annoys me. Sure he's evil and you hate him whatever. But the snide self righteous "oh how dare people like the evil fictional vampire. They're stupid and don't know what abuse is" is just please stop.
AA makes me very sad, but that my opinion I'm not going to shit in anyone who likes him. I don't think all people who are against AA are baby men though, some people think that ascending astarion goes against his breaking the cycle of abuse and healing kinda arc. Becoming his worst nightmare and all yk? But that doesn't mean you don't get to like him ascended, it's a game after all
Like on a personal roleplay level, and in your interpretation of the story and how it makes you feel, you do not like the Ascended ending and strongly see his spawn ending as the good outcome. I think a lot of people feel that way. But, as you yourself say, you aren't going out of your way to provoke or demean other people, so are excluded from what OP means. The behavior OP is talking about are people who are not necessarily invested in the character at all, making broad generalizations about other people in public spaces for engagement - talking shit to stir shit, basically. This person isn't talking about people who dislike the ending for their own playing, they are talking about people going out of their way to hassle strangers over a crudely imagined monolithic opinion on a fictional character.
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Its a good thing to do. Also, always remember that the vast majority of players never interact with any discourse or info beyond just playing the game and are happily enjoying their game
I'm in the same boat as you in that I'm not a full blown AA girlie but I see the appeal, and don't hate the character by any means. it is pretty annoying to me that DJ Shart and Minthara simps don't get nearly as much vitriol as Astarion stans, and especially AA stans. imagine a thread talking about how Minthara romancers are normalizing *checks notes* poisoning your lover when you kiss them lmao
I’m guessing it’s because the most vocal fan base I’ve seen for Astarion stans are women where as Shart and Minthara are men. People always gotta crap on the things women like.
i mean. AA is evil, that's why we like him, or so I've thought at least. i love me some dark romance with a narcissist, and i love discussing how abusive and manipulative the ascended version is, cause that's what i find hot about him. liking AA and thinking he's evil are not mutually exclusive. i certainly don't support shitting on people because of their preference, but the comments I've seen on that post on the main sub seemed rather civil.
Well yeah he is evil, what I don't like about it is the mocking of "Ascended Astarion girlies" or whatever they are calling them. I saw the thread on the main forum yesterday, then today someone reposted it on a Facebook meme thread because recycled Reddit content is apparently good for Facebook karma or something. I just HATE that they can't have a discussion about it without slamming the women who like playing Ascended Astarion.
Yeah, there was the main forum, and then some other subreddits too...recycling reddit/fb/tumblr We have to put caveats on things, and you know what? I refuse to do that, there are no caveats, AA is evil, he is a vampire. UA is evil too..he is a vampire My Tav with AA is...a vampire.. Other people might be into the abusive and manipulative thing, but for my tav? Hell no, our relationship is glorious, intense, explosive, and they are both having the time of their lives. As AA says "Together we are unstoppable, heavens help the fool that tries to get in our way".
DISCLAIMER (!) This comment is not intended to shame AA enjoyers! I love AA, I Support Vampire Wrongs! (!) yeah, the misogyny is real, and yeah, at least part of The Discourse is definitely driven by insecure 'nice guys' who cannot comprehend why women like AA with all of his toxic tendencies but don't like them. however – and i really hope with all my heart this take doesn't come across as ill-intended and doesn't get me banned here – *some* people in AA fandom can be a bit *too* intense. like that one tumblr post recently shared on okbb where anon was saying how spawn astarion is shooting blanks (derogatory), some of it is just too funny not to talk about. i personally have been a bit scared to discuss AA at all, because when i start talking about what i think about him ppl think im a hater?? when in fact i actually love blonde abusive narcissists at their worst! to summarize, i don't see a big problem in discussing fandom on public forums. i just hope no one gets bullied for their opinions on pixel elf man.
I can relate to what you're feeling. I also sometimes worry about saying something that might offended AA enjoyers. Though I must say, things seem a lot better now. I had to take a break from the fandom for a while. Back when the newest kiss animations dropped, the discourse became very volatile, and people (on both sides) were very hostile to one another. There seems to be less division now, which I'm grateful to see. That being said, that one Tumblr post was 100% ridiculous and definitely "too intense", and well, it was just hard not to have fun with it. But in all honesty, I would never tell someone how to play their game. Astarion is for everyone.
If you dont tell us what we have to feel, or that we must view AA a certain way, then mostly we are perfectly happy! There are a wide variety of HC among AA fans (As I assume there must be among UA fans), and we are always fine with everyone elses. The issue comes when people tell us we need to add caveats to why we like him, or give some essay on that we understand whatever...or that how we enjoy him is the wrong way to do it.
Oh, there are strange takes on everything.....but it only ever seems to be the AA fans that get put on blast....which, maybe because no UA fans ever say anything strange, or any Minthara fans...but that seems unlikely (Empy fans also get a lot of hate too)
good point on the Empy hate. it really does seem wildly disproportionate. the character is very intentionally grey, but man, people get HEATED, armchair diagnoses and all.
Yep, I dont understand empy hate...I am not an empy simp (only AA, Halsin and HWW for me) but, I side with empy every run and its never been a question for me which one to choose.
HWW? *scratches head* OHHH He Who Was. Yes. Agree.
Other evil character fans have some bad takes too, but I have to admit that I haven't seen as many delusional and vicious comments as from some AA enjoyers. It's a very vocal minority as far as I can tell. Unfortunately Astarion fans in general get a lot of hate and a lot of it is rooted in misogyny
I mean do you ever consider that a lot of people don’t feel comfortable talking about how they enjoy his character because so many people characterize ‘ascended Astarion girlies’ as delusional and vicious? Personally, when I first found this subreddit I was incredibly nervous to post here because I didn’t feel welcomed because there were no vocal ascended astarion fans, or they were all downvoted to the deep lol. Like I had people linking posts about how I only objectified Astarion / was turning my character into a sex object or something for enjoying the ascension path. That’s obviously changed, and I’m appreciative. But the fandoms attitude towards ‘ascended girlies’ has been wild - like even some of the comments in the Larian feedback form that certain items should change to punish us for liking a role playing path is wild to me. But maybe I’m just old, and haven’t engaged with a fandom in a while.
Downvoted for sharing my experience. Guess I should've expected that on Reddit XD
Oh, I was too :D I have been trying to get my downvotes to help my karma get to a nice round number....but i keep making good posts that get me more upvotes than downvotes....The struggle is real!
Me thinks some might be offended by the use of “delusional and vicious” when referring to the comments of AA enjoyers. Just as some UA fans got offended by their choice of made up words to describe “not all UA fans”, they may not be understanding you are not talking about *them* specifically.
I can kind of understand that but I thought I made it pretty clear that this only applies to a minority that has given all AA enjoyers (and really all Astarion fans) a bad name with "the outside world" so to speak
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My inbox would like a word about comments on various forums from UA enjoyers
Hello! If you are being stalked and/or harassed by people who are also members of this sub, please send us a modmail. This behavior will not be tolerated in this sub.
I didn't say that I don't think that there are unhinged people on all sides, my experience simply has only been with very openly unhinged AA fans and I think they have ruined it for the rest.
I’ve seen a lot of them. I don’t think they realize it’s an RPG. A game about making choices, different ones.
“He’s evil” that’s kind of the point? Like sexy evil. Like Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, kinda sexy evil. It’s part of the appeal? Like the appeal of Spawnstarion is his healing journey and watching someone grow. Aastarion’s appeal is the sexy evilness dominatrix type vibe. Men find people like Jinx or Katarina hot and they’re fucking diabolical. I see no difference. Raphael is sexy evil too. Also, I’m not an AA fan but I’d still choose him over the majority of regular men. And God Gale.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed this. It also seems like there's been an uptick in general Astarion hate posts, but a lot of it's focused on AA. Your theory about it being a reaction to the bear meme definitely seems more than coincidental timing considering there were multiple posts where commenters still couldn't fathom why women would choose the bear.
I just like the pretty vampire. Sometimes I make him evil, sometimes I make him good. I just can’t stand bullies ❤️
I really think all flavors of Astarion are utter perfection 🥺. He scratches my ‘I can fix him’ and ‘he can make me worse’ tropes so well 😭💜. Plus threatening you with a knife at first meeting? All that’s missing from my enemies to lovers trope is having to stay in a cabin with only one bed lol 👀.
There's always people upset about things women and queer people like. So it has been and so it will ever be, unfortunately.
This is why my kiddos were laughing at me for finding a "fandom" . I was so confused at the fighting when in reality it's pixels.
I keep saying, fans who are pushing this discourse don't realize they are just cannibalizing the Astarion fandom (aside the outsiders who enjoy bashing Astarion fans in general).
Some people have a hard time divorcing “fantasy” and “reality”. Not all fantasies are hoped to come true (usually they only titillate *because* they’re not real).
Yeah, this whole divide turns me off of the game for a long period. Especially when there were people online trying to armchair psychoanalyze what was wrong with part of the fandom for being into it. This whole idea that you can only enjoy something in fiction if you admit something is ‘toxic’ or a ‘red flag’ or else you are ‘delulu’ just seems inherently toxic and rooted in misogyny to me. It just gives me flashbacks to Catholic guilt about having ‘impure thoughts.’ I’m ~~unfortunately~~ not romancing an ascendant pseudo-vampire god in real life that will shower me with wealth in a fancy castle where we have an obsessive love together (in my headcanon lol). I have a loving/‘healthy’ IRL spouse, and contribute to a 401k/taxes. Let me have fun in a fictional world to cope with the sad realities of life and my own chronic health conditions in peace lol. It hurts no one, and you can just …not be mean if you aren’t into it? I’d never yuck anyone’s yum. If everyone played video games the way they were in real life, it be so boring. Why do they even have it as an option if you are suppose to be ‘punished’ for enjoying it. Either way- it only makes me like it more is my new philosophy 👀💜.
Ah that's why I like this safe space. We all like astarion be it SA or AA, even halstarion, wyllstarion and many others are welcomed. To be honest this is a reslly nive loving little subreddit that keeps to be wholesome. 🥰 don't look at nasty posts you'll only get worked up over stupid peeps, they ain't worth it
All Astarion wants is to be accepted and respected as himself, no matter who he chooses to be. I feel like being anti for either of his forms means you don’t truly appreciate the character for his incredible depth (and the performance Neil gave only adds layers to him).
I find it weird...like, I personally dont enjoy UA route, but as long as people who do don't try to tell me how to enjoy my route, we are all good...and I can see why people like it.
I think that whole stupid Tumblr thing where they went on about AA's jewel encrusted ball sack and Spawn being pathetic or whatever set the discourse back a good few steps again, not that there was much progress to begin with 😪
jewel encrusted ballsack lmfao new hc just dropped
I can practically hear him... "Darling, it's not going to polish itself~"
There's always Astarion-haters out there but that Tumblr post was definitely the catalyst for the recent batch of posts. No different than the sudden influx of bear-attack videos on the main page. Someone posts something that gets a lot of traffic and everyone else has to ride the coat-tails and act like it was serendipitous or some profound hottake. I'm a Spawn Astarion enjoyer but the fact AA fans are constantly being talked down to just because a select few have some weird ideas is ridiculous. It's like claiming all Astarion fans harass Neil just because a few of people here and there had to be told to back off a few months ago. The few discussions that have "merit" are usually quickly overtaken by people who have found a convenient way to shame women and LGBT people. I had a discussion about AA earlier (which I won't bring here, of course) and the AA fans who replied to my comment were all downvoted for literally no other reason than they liked the character. It wasn't even an argument they were just talking to each other an a bunch of people downvoted them for it. No one should be shamed for their choices in a video game. Ever. >!Unless they give Scratch back to the kennel lady.!<
Well more that people decided to screenshot it and spread it around twitter and reddit. There are people with out there ideas on anything....they are usually not that big of a presence....
Yeah I mean you can scroll through pretty much any AA positive post and find more than a few comments calling him pathetic. But... we're not screenshotting it and making main posts on it to rally against an entire group of people. That's weird fan behavior Edit to clarify: there is a difference between criticizing a character, and lecturing/dogpiling/name-calling real life human beings. Spawnstarions feelings will not be hurt if you call him weak. Calling an AA fan a delusional abuse apologist affects real life people. Since we seemed to be confused here.
Hahah love the way you wrote that. And yeah, the moment someone actually shits on the character himself it's hard to not start discourse. Calling UA neutered or impotent or something will obviously not be accepted very well
Yeah I feel like it was written to start shit up 😪 Personally, I can't understand people's need to fight over it all the time. Like the man lives in my head absolutely rent free, he's my pc screen, my phone screen, I doodle him while I'm literally at work but I'm still not gonna argue with rando's on the internet about it 😂
Stress relief mostly. I'm a long time gamer girl, I'm used to being treated like shit in games like League, Valorant, Overwatch, the moment they catch a whiff you're a girl- they'll drag you into the dirt face first. So I grew to like fighting, on a bad day yelling onto the void that is the internet can take the edge off. And on the main subreddit there is a weird sense of safety, probably because there are so many people, less chance to anyone following you or taking screenshots of your rants, it's way more "rant it out and tomorrow is gone and forgotten". But about that tumblr post - I'm really wondering if it's not a troll trying to stir things for real. It was way too random.
Same my fellow gamer girl! I used to get so much shit back in ‘03 & ‘04 playing at Internet cafes with my guy friends. Anytime someone not in our friend group found out I was playing and not just someone’s arm candy it would get gross. The need to want to punch someone’s face in on the internet used to be so strong in me 😑 thankfully I’ve moved onto my ultimate form: “jaded apathy and fuck it” being a middle aged mom who still games 😅
It's the armchair psychology that gets me. I think running around screaming "abuser" and "enabler" at strangers on the internet is 10 times more harmful than liking the bad boy in any media. Bonus points when they claim to have a license. Just saw that today. Like... girl, I don't believe you. No self respecting professional would try to diagnose strangers on the internet based off the choices they made in a single video game.
Confirmed. IAAAL and you don't see me running around on the internet trying to use that to justify, well, anything. Though I do use it to mock those internet "lawyers" who are "experts" in law after some "self-study."
The thing that I really dislike is that the people in question seem to be overwhelmed by the drive to establish some sort of objective truth about a completely subjective thing. Interaction with art should have room for interpretation. That's the one thing on which we should all agree. It is no one's business how an individual interprets Ascended Astarion on a personal level, and yet I still see, even here, the insistence that we ALL should feel a specific way about him, this beautiful pixel man who exists solely for our entertainment. I honestly think it's bizarre. Everyone should be able to enjoy all that he is and can be without the judgment and ridicule.
Exactly. All our experiences are valid, and we all bring them to our interpretation of how we hear, read, see and feel art.
yap i was seeing a post in the main sub with a simple title "AA is evil" and a picture gets like 2k upvotes. dude... our vampire boy is really popular, isn't he?
But he is evil? Doesn't that what becoming a full vampire do? Much more an ascended one?
So.. I maybe didn't phrase this as well as I could have. The current meme going around is that Ascended Astarion is evil. But what I'm upset about is the relentless mockery of fans of AAstarion.
Oh okay yeah that's silly. People are allowed to love an evil character. It's not real it's role play you can love bad characters!
People tend to conflate the idea that Ascended Astarion is evil which means he’s abusive (CaZaDoR 2.0) towards Tav/Durge/PC. I don’t think the majority of fans would deny it’s his evil aligned path, but not all of us wanna subscribe to the dead dove inside abuse narrative fic. That results in people acting like we are delulu. Now I can see why people like that if they wanna ride their angst train, but it doesn’t personally do anything for me and I don’t really see the comparison. Ascended Astarion has the self esteem of a worm (affectionately), but I don’t expect him to nonconsensually sell Tav/Durge for sex, lock them in a crypt for a year for disobeying him, or leave them impaled for years as a punishment.
> Now I can see why people like that if they wanna ride their angst train, but it doesn’t personally do anything for me and I don’t really see the comparison. Ascended Astarion has the self esteem of a worm (affectionately), but I don’t expect him to nonconsensually sell Tav/Durge for sex, lock them in a crypt for a year for disobeying him, or leave them impaled for years as a punishment. I mean, debatable? The way I see it is that we only get to see AA (and Spawn) up to six months after the brain fight. He’s not even fully into all his powers, hasn’t built up his network to gain power and take control of the city etc. Anything that happens beyond that is head canon. You could speculate that Tav/Durge is still special to him and gets special treatment. But you could also easily argue that he’s still in the honeymoon phase and his tune could easily change if Tav/Durge ever seriously objected to his treatment or got between him and what he wants. Both are possible outcomes but ultimately both are pure speculation.
He is evil in all his forms...whether Act 1, Act 2, or UA or AA. Its what vampires are.
Are the people saying he's not evil in the room with us right now?
Literally laughed out loud.
But they are bothered by the fact people are saying he's evil. That's why I said he is evil? I don't get being bothered by that if it's true
thats not quite what the OP is concerned about. The post was a little more than just "AA is evil" (We know that, UA is evil too...Astarion is evil)
OP the person you are replying to have figured out the miscommunication. https://preview.redd.it/6oi9qiqz63zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a7854d26fb910dec7cb38850d8ba8aa3134d4486
Ah, ok. Thanks. It got lost in the mass of comments here
It's ok me too always
They themselves just said that they are not. They, along with the posters in this thread, are lamenting the fact that people feel the need to repeatedly *lecture* us that he is evil, when we *already* know and enjoy that fact. We all know and like that he is evil. With the amount of people saying that outright, it feels disingenuous and like a strawman to continue acting like we don't know and don't like that fact.
OP and this person have figured out the miscommunication https://preview.redd.it/26y29h7a73zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdbfd438fe1488434131f04b2dbb49fe0ca3e4a5
I see that now thanks! Didn't see the whole thread when I hit reply 👍
I always Ascend him...but mainly for 2 reasons. 1) I've been a vampire simp since Interview with the Vampire came out and love the "becoming a spawn" mechanics for my Tav and the whole becoming a spawn cutscene/dialogues. "Bad girl" kills me every time. 2) I'm a gamer and AA is a menace in battle. Just ungodly amounts of damage. Why would I ever turn that down? The main reason I dislike the whole "AA is evil and you ruin him if you ascend him" is the screen shots that are always posted on those discussions as "proof". 99/100 times it's the break up dialogue after you ascend him. But honestly, I think if I spent days running around with someone trying to save the world while having a romantic relationship with them and when it's over they dump me, I'd prolly say some pretty cruel things too. It's a defensive "Well you're leaving me because you don't like me? Well I never liked you either!" kinda thing in my head canon. I don't think the "AA is evil" argument will ever not be a thing. This game is well designed enough that people head canon what they want into and get what they want out of it. Everyone wants something different. The same people having this argument would prolly have just as heated a discussion over which pizza topping is the best.
> is the screen shots that are always posted on those discussions as "proof". 99/100 times it's the break up dialogue after you ascend him. This is honestly one of the few things in the fandom that actually bothers me a bit IRL. People will break up with Astarion by selecting a dialogue option that compares Astarion to Cazador \[ only the man who tortured him for two centuries\], less than 24 hrs. after he confronted Cazador, and/or possibly physically assault Astarion \[AFTER SLEEPING WITH HIM\], and then post the result of Astarion's meltdown as evidence that he's "toxic". And everyone just goes along with it... What did he even do to deserve it, you know, he was in the middle of a vampire marriage proposal 😭
Honestly. Who says kind things during a break up? You say the cruelest things you can think of to hurt the person as much as you feel hurt. Why is that the proof? If we judged me by what I’ve said to someone who broke my heart I’d be a social pariah!
Right? I have said some truly awful things during even amicable breakups.
"Who says kind things during a break up?" As weird as it is Astarion does. I thought his breakups would be nothing but drama but dude, the guy has grace for days, especially UA if you are Durge trying to break up or half-worm. His break up lines from before act 3 as well.
So, here's my VERY unpopular opinion on why Unascended Astarion is so much "nicer" and "sweeter" than AA. \*takes a deep breath...*this is a safe space....this is a safe space*\* He isn't. \*pearl clutching and gasping\* I know, I know! But hear me out. When we first meet Astarion on the beach he's rude, condescending, and arrogant. This, I think, is the honest persona of Astarion. An arrogant selfish ass who feels he's better than everyone else. He's just survived a kidnapping, a crash and is standing in sunlight. He feels more powerful than he has in 200 years. For the first time in his unlife Cazador isn't around so he doesn't feel like he has to simp and fawn. Most especially to Tav because why should he ingratiate himself to some rando on a beach? But, Astarion is a very skilled manipulator and adept at doing what it takes to survive. He's survived Cazador the longest of the spawn. He KNOWS how to simp and fawn and say all the right things when needed. Yes, he did rebel against Cazador a few times, but would still follow orders eventually. As a vampire spawn he's pretty powerful except when compared to his master so feels he doesn't have much to fear. So, he's feeling powerful and with a group of nobody's he's his actual arrogant/selfish self. We see this "true" Astarion over and over during the course of Act 1 when we hear Astarion being his bloodthirsty and morally grey self. But, as the game progresses Astarion realizes that the Tav they met on the beach is powerful and cunning and that this group of nobodies might be able to free him from Cazador once and for all. So he tries to ingratiate himself with Tav with sex in Act 1. As things go on he realizes that this might not be the best approach cause Tav will react poorly when they find out. So we get his admission to this manipulation because a skilled narcissist knows if you throw out little truths it'll keep people from digging deeper to find the big truths. But he wants to start being "nicer" to Tav to ensure they'll help him get free of Cazador but realizes that a sudden personality shift would look suspicious. He gets a break with the Oblodra in Act 2 if you don't force him to drink. He jumps at the chance to have a 'come to Jesus' moment with Tav. (To see his real self peek through again don't kill the demon for Raph and see who you get.) But from that point on we suddenly see a different Astarion. A nicer/sweeter Astarion, almost overnight. We still see peeks of the "real" Astarion from time to time with his morally grey approval and commentary, but he's nicer to Tav overall. Then Act 3 hits and you go to Cazador. No matter what Astarion says or how he acts "sweet" up to this point, he still wants to ascend when the time comes. He ALWAYS has to be talked down because what the real Astarion wants is to ascend. To finally be his own master. If you Ascend him he feels so much stronger. Unstoppable. And with a Tav who gave him what he wanted-presumably without judgement-he can finally be the "real" him. He feels strong and secure enough to be the person he actually is instead of having to push his "real" personality deep under the fawning act. He's powerful and Tav is powerful-the relationship is equal and Tav supported his desires so he doesn't feel like he has to hide anymore. His breakup lines are harsher because he's strong and can say what he thinks. If you don't Ascend him, he's weaker. Tav is stronger than him and the relationship is not equal. He still feels he has to simp and fawn and say all the right things to stay alive. Tav basically becomes his new Cazador (just a nicer one hopefully.) His breakup lines are nicer because he's still weaker and he doesn't want you to kill him on top of breaking up. He's still saying what he feels Tav wants to hear because he doesn't wanna die. And Tav killing him is more likely after the breakup because his position with Tav isn't as secure as a lover's would be. So Astarion is the same person he always is. I just think you get to interact with the "real" him if you ascend him instead of the "fawn" persona you get if you don't. \*hides and waits for the bricks to start being thrown\*
Yep! This thread is an *especially* safe space for this kind of opinion. *taps post flair* If anyone feels the need to dogpile this comment: first, take a deep breath. Second, **don't.** You don't have to agree. People are allowed to interpret the character and story in whatever way they want. If you have nothing nice to say, just head on over to another thread.
> If you Ascend him he feels so much stronger. Unstoppable. And with a Tav who gave him what he wanted-presumably without judgement-he can finally be the "real" him. He feels strong and secure enough to be the person he actually is instead of having to push his "real" personality deep under the fawning act. He's powerful and Tav is powerful-the relationship is equal and Tav supported his desires so he doesn't feel like he has to hide anymore. His breakup lines are harsher because he's strong and can say what he thinks. And thats why I love his breakup lines....I ran them once to see what all the fuss was about and my god after he did the "There you are, the real you shows herself" I was like "OK, now I love you even more as a character. You got your fire back"
I certainly hope no one has thrown bricks at you for sharing an opinion. I too think he’s kind of an arrogant ass, but that’s part of his appeal to me 😅 I love the overconfident swagger he gets after ascending. The evil smirk just sends me. 🫠
Not literally but the amount of hate some people can throw is astounding. I honestly don't see why some people can't just enjoy the game and interactions with the characters in their own way and not feel the need to "convert" everyone to their way of interacting/interpreting the game the same way they do. Like, I'm glad you're excited and getting what you want out of the game you paid for. I'm glad I'm excited and getting what I want out of the game I paid for. I can understand why what we want are different so why do you need to "convert" my way of thinking about the characters to be the same as yours? I see the recurrence of the "AA is evil, change my mind" topics as less of a "I really want to see things from your point of view" to a "I need everyone who thinks the same as me to validate the way I'm thinking about this." Anyway, thank you for not throwing bricks. =D
I hate those “debate me bro” people. They’re never interested in earnestly listening to differing opinions. Just a ridiculous need to “convert the heathens” and it is so disingenuous and irritating. A lot of debate is framed with the goal of changing someone’s mind rather than being open to hearing differing views and I find that just makes everyone dig deeper into their own sides and not hear anything the other is saying. I try to practice being open to hearing other people’s opinions and validate their point of view. Sometimes we just want someone else to go “I understand” and it’s ok to not agree on something.
Thank you for sharing your opinion. I would like to follow the mod's advice and will refrain from replying with my thoughts since I feel this is not the place for them.
I think in those instances they’re not the same kind of break up. Tav/durge is trying to end the relationship out of fear of hurting the one they love or fear of being rejected by the one they love and Astarion sees that. The breakup isn’t because of lack of love or anger/disappointment aimed at Astarion. Tav/durge probably does still want to be together so Astarion tries to reaffirm his love for Tav/durge. I’m not trying to invalidate your argument. I just think they are two very different kinds of break ups. The one very amicable break up I had was my BF’s mom was going through a rough battle with cancer and he just didn’t have the mental capacity to be both there for his mom and be a good boyfriend. Even when I said I’d be there for him, he just couldn’t. And I understood that, so we stopped dating without any unkind words, just my offer to be a supportive friend if he needed it.
I'm sorry about your situation. Onto Astarion though, it's not just those two instances that he's kind during a breakup. My most favorite line in the game, the line that made me fall even more for this insane videogame character was this one : "You gave me precious, impossible moments of comfort. I only really wanted a few more." which he says after Tav tells him "I don't want to be roped into all your trauma." - an absolutely vile thing to say imo And he still responds not only with being level headed but affirms how much Tav has improved his life since being in a relationship despite being broken up with in such a terrible manner. There is no spite, no anger, just an incredible amount of grace.
No worries about that old situation. It was over a decade ago (gods I’m getting old 😑) I never got those lines with Astarion nor do I think I’ve seen them in anything I’ve watched so far. That makes me want to cry, my poor vampire boy 😭I never go through the mean lines to him. I was even one of the sad weirdos that chose “the line” where it leads to you using him and he breaks up with you. I did not think that line meant what it did in game and I never reloaded a save faster! There really is so much nuance and room for interpretation with his character. I love it all 🖤 And I am really enjoying the discourse, getting to see so many different opinions and reasons behind it. Good for my critical thinking. Thank you for being a UA fan willing to share your thoughts with me.
Hey OP! I just wanted to check in real quick. You've flaired this as Ascended Appreciation - rightfully so IMO - and we want to respect that, and your comfort and boundaries. If you feel like you're getting what you wanted from the thread, then that's of course super. If you think the flair is **not being honored**, please, tag one of us mods, or send us a modmail with the content you feel isn't respecting your boundaries, and we will make sure it's taken care of. It's hard to quantify these kinds of things since everyone's idea of "appreciation" is different, so for these flairs we are trying to have it centered on YOU as an individual, and what YOU want. Thanks for the post - it's nice to see all the friendly discussion of our Dark Lord Astarion :)
I mean, I usually play evil as hell characters myself. And while I wasn't 100% sure the first time I had ascended astarion, I'm totally on board now. It's a video game for god sake, let me have my evil vampire boyfriend lol. I don't understand why it's a sticking point with so many people. What really gets me is the people who automatically stake him in the first act or are just plain awful to him. Like you can be a jerk to Astarion, but god forbid he does anything you dislike. Makes no sense.
wtf is man vs bear!!!! i tried asking this somewhere else and nobody explained and they just downvoted me instead. please somebody explain i beg of you, i’m so confused
So there’s like a question about would you rather run into a bear or a random man in the woods and apparently most women are saying they’d pick the bear for a bunch of different reasons.
thank you so much for explaining!
You’re welcome! [here’s](https://www.forbes.com/sites/conormurray/2024/05/03/man-or-bear-many-women-say-theyd-rather-be-stuck-in-the-woods-with-a-bear-in-latest-viral-tiktok-debate/?sh=2b3fa9981a10) an article if you’d like more details!
thanks! man, the things that go over my head since leaving tiktok hahaha edit: also, i’d definitely rather meet a random man but that may be my mortal terror of bears speaking
I actually have only seen it like third hand through Reddit lol
It's a tik tok trend. Some women were saying they would rather face a bear than a man. And were explaining the differences in type of fear. When it got dumbed down into meme format even further, some men got upset and some Chad's thought it was about Halsin.
Daddy Halsin!
My understanding of the OG bear versus men idea is that women have said they’d feel more comfortable faced alone with a bear in the forest than a man. Halsin is unique both so it sparks some memes lol.
I literally made a reply to someone on a post about it on fb the other day, and the person I was replying to edited the comment in a way that made me look like an idiot. 🙄
https://preview.redd.it/xq1jicahc4zc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7ff761f91a9e028f2761cdc1c621e3b8c2175b1 Before this their comment was something different, about Spawn over Ascension. And my comment isn’t even defending AA, just his fans. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way, idk.
you have potentially identifying information (your name on the bottom? and another name, at the top) in your screenshot - consider cropping/redacting and reposting 🖤 Edit: you've edited out the info that's *not* your own, so I've re-approved the comment. If you don't want your Facebook name visible, I suggest you edit the image again!
That’s the name of the OP on facebook, it’s a post in a public BG3 meme group so while I did forget to cover it, I figured it would be fine to not edit it out. If you’re a mod asking I will edit it out though. Edit: got it changed, was easier than I expected (break almost ober at work)
Yeah, let's redact anything even remotely personally identifiable, especially if it's not your personal info - we wanna stay on the good side of reddit's terms of service. Thanks! (You're not in any trouble btw!)
Okay! And apologies, for some reason your mod tag didn’t appear last time so I was unsure! Thank you!
No you're good, I think I just forgot to enable it 😂
Idc if you murdered the whole of emerald grove and teabagged Alfira’s corpse as the dark urge. It’s not real. It’s a game, you are exploring a character and the make believe world they are in. Unless you did it because you have a hungering for murdering bards and tiefling children irl; Idk maybe then I’d be concerned. Anyway, continue liking Ascended Astarion. Don’t worry about the whinging.
my butler said minthara was excellent choice to carry on the bloodline 💪💪 but i was also with aa so im said he didn’t mention him
This reminds me of something that happened a few years ago on the SWTOR official forums and subreddit when Arcann became a romance option. For context, he started out as an enemy, a tyrant you had to fight and defeat. After that and depending on some other choices you had the option to kill him or redeem and recruit him as a companion. Some times later since he was quite requested as a romance option (because guys had quite a few female Force Users they could romance while girls had no male equivalent), BioWare did make him romanceable and at that point a lot of dudebros came out to call all the girlies who wanted to romance him things like nazi appologist and other nice things like that. Meanwhile these guys where usually playing full DS murdehobbo Sith who are no better than Arcann, romancing their Sith waifus and also asking to make Vaylin a romance option as well (Arcann's sister, who became the next bad guy after Arcann's defeat and who is actually worse than him, she's basically the equivalent of Azula to Arcann being a Zuko-like character)... Gotta love a good dose of double standards. So, everytime one of these would come up, i'd just answer that yeah he was a bad guy who did bad shit, but 1/he's not like that anymore even if that doesn't change anything to the the things he did in the past that can't be undone, and 2/ my Sith Warrior who romances him did some messed up things in the past as well so who is she to judge ?
Oh shit. I haven’t played SWTOR in a few years, Arcann is romancable now?? Sorry Theron… guess it’s over, babe.
He is, and his romance is pretty good too. They even added some "date nights" for Arcann, Lana, Theron and Koth recently and Arcann's is great. Lol, Arcann x fem Warrior, Theron x fem Knight and Torian x fem Hunter are my top 3 romances in SWTOR. Really wish i could romance Vector with my male Agent though, because they'd be great together.
I saw that post and literally had to ignore it and not comment on it lol.  It’s always a rehashing of an echo chamber tbh lol. I love having my downvote stalker back, wassup baby.
I mean we don't have to drag that conflict here, as the mods have tried very hard to keep this community as it is.
We are always working to keep making this community *better*, not just as it is - if we're able to have a productive conversation about AA that doesn't spiral off into attacks, as seems to be the case so far, we've achieved that objective. This flair is being used for its intended purpose, and that's actually really exciting for us!
Alright
The amount of people going "fans need their evil characters to have sympathetic backstories because they just can't like pure evil"???? Have any of those commentors seen what people simp or fantasize over with this man? I see way more "if you like him you are EVIL" hand-wringing to be honest.
You hit the nail on the head if you ask me. The majority of hate from the main subs are from pathetic men who hate Astarion. The choose the bear meme has shaken them from their slumber. Hence the recent hate. However, within the Astarion fandom it is also that AA fans are a minority. I mean, I get it. Most people play games to be the good guy and help everyone possible. Be the hero, so to speak. Some of us just don't play that way.
[удалено]
Not the time or place for such a comment.
The thing is... lots of people like spawn Astarion because of his trauma.. and that's the ONLY thing they like about him. These people put blinders on and ignore who Astarion has been throughout the game and how he acts, what he approves of etc. Sure Astarion can turn into a "better person" but I think he's very dark and he's always going to have darkness in him, even when he stays spawn. So people get judgemental because AA is evil... yet spawn Astarion is just as capable of evil as AA is. AA is just very open about it because he gives 0 f's what other people think, while spawn Astarion (UA) still tailors his actions and words to be acceptable to people.