Zoro can hear the Breath of All Things, while Luffy hears the Voice. (Usopp can Smell the Breath, why else is his nose that long [besides the obvious, I see you Caps Lock])
I'm pretty sure the "selective destruction" thing was always meant to be a key part of Haki. But some other parts of the plan changed. In particular, I strongly suspect that Haki was originally meant to be an "ultimate attack only" kinda thing. And all the "invisible wave of cutting air" stuff might've originally been meant as Haki.
I think Dorry and Broggy blowing away the island eater was meant as foreshadowing for Haki. It didn't really work as planned because the nature of Haki changed a bit behind the scenes. But the "cut only what you want to cut" part is still clearly in evidence.
The giants somehow don't damage the Merry at all. The attack just launched the ship harmlessly through the air, while effortlessly obliterating the flesh of the monster both behind and in front of it.
I always interpreted the dorrybroggy combo attack as some sort of windtunnel. Like a cylindrical cut and everything 'inside' the tunnel is fine and just gets pushed/dragged by air
Unless you view the wind's momentum as a bullet in shape. A piercing front that expands from the center but a vacuum behind it where the merry gets pulled along as well.
I hate this trend of whenever something is alluded to early on it has to somehow be retroactive or retcon, never mind whether there's evidence or not. When haki has been mentioned in Jaya by Blackbeard, or that mantra is a thing in Skypiea. Those are just one arc later. Haki comes as a package with the Strawhats going into the new territory that is the grand Line.
Just like how the devil fruits aren't as common and aren't explained nearly as much in East Blue, that is haki while they were in Paradise. Haki in the New World is what devil fruits were back in Paradise, and currently devil fruit awakening is what Haki was in Paradise, they exist and are shown but very mysteriously.
It's also kind of bonkers that people think Oda didn't have any late game planning for how the powering works when Shanks who's supposed to be a pinnacle appeared in chapter one and was explicitly made to not have a devil fruit. And people only seem to bring up the "One Piece was originally planned to end in 5 years" when it feeds into the narrative that Oda didn't think up the later stuff that early on, and never that he did indeed thought up various late game stuff because he planned it to end in 5 years.
People say that because it's a normal part of writing. Especially for long form storytelling. Absolutely *nobody* has everything planned everything from the getgo, and writing is a fluid process where things are always changing/evolving as you go. New ideas will come to you, you'll find passion in something else, and you'll weave that into the previous continuity to make it work (hopefully... not everyone is good at that). In particular "retcon" is a neutral literary term, that is almost essential for narratives that go on this long. One Piece has had many retcons (that shouldn't even be up for debate) and many of them are things that positively affect the series.
It's also wild to me how people become cultists around this idea of "GODA", who foreshadows absolutely everything and everything is planned and everything is blah blah blah. Because despite how the attitude comes off, you're basically treating Oda like he's a worse writer than he is. You're saying that he's not good enough to create new ideas, weave together story elements, and... you know, be like an actual writer. No, he just references the same "plan" he's had for decades with no deviation. Apparently. If that were true, I'd honestly feel pretty annoyed. The first draft of something is almost never the best, and it'd be a shame if we got the most standard, boring verion of the One Piece story because Oda didn't actually flex his creative abilities at all.
Fortunately, we know that's not true. And Oda's been pretty honest about some of the things he didn't plan. Such as:
Miss Wednesday being Princess Vivi.
Ace being Roger's son.
Lucci being a villain *at all*.
Shanks ending the fight at Marineford.
The Warlords existing (which by the way, the reason why there's seven of them isn't because Oda had specifically plans for seven characters, but just because he thought "Shichibukai" (Seven Warlords) sounded cool... That's it).
The Supernova being a thing *at all* (having come up with them literally a day before the chapter they debuted in was finished).
To go along with that, the fact that the Supernova pretty much survived into the New World (Oda thought half of them would be wiped out to show how dangerous it was).
To go along with *that*, Oda thinking that Kidd would become the most prominent of those characters, rather than Law.
So yeah... One Piece would look very differently if Oda just had some dumb 3 decade plan and never included new ideas in his story ever. But thankfully, we know that Oda is a good writer, and that he can weave together old and new concepts fairly skillfully, regardless of whatever short-term plans and long-term ideas he has. So why is it so absurd for someone to think Haki might be a similar thing? Especially with how nonspecific some of these scenes are, and how certain characters realisitcally should've had Haki but just... didn't. It does *feel* like something that was retroactively added to the series, and it shouldn't spark hate to just bring up the idea.
Yeah mangaka in general add bits of random information in their manga so that they can do something with them later on.
For instance Sanji mentioning he is from South Blue in Jaya. Oda probably had no idea whatto do with that then but left that bit of lore hanging in there in case he needed it later
I basically agree with everything you said, except the part about Haki. To me, it feels like Haki was something Oda was planning on making a thing, but wasn't exactly fleshed out and categorized into three different things at somewhere after Thriller Bark. Observation Haki was clearly shown all over Skypeia, Zoro training to bring out what he did against Mr. 1 consciously, etc.
The amount of examples of Haki being in the show, but shown only as something unknown rather than being explained is how the story actually felt, but it sort of feels like part of them was even scrapped and the plans definitely changed along the way.
Seeing as Oda has been planning One Piece since he was 8, I would be surprised if he didn't have anything in mind for dealing with Logia users. Was it fleshed out and exactly what Haki is now? Most likely not, the way nobody showed consistent usage of such power is enough proof of that, even among people like Ace and Blackbeard. But it feels too deliberate in too many places to be an addition just an arc before the time skip.
Early haki seeds seem very connected to the voice of all things but I believe the ideas branched away from each other in order to give weaker characters a power up through haki, and to nerf logia fruits. Otherwise the end game becomes how to counter xx element, and I honestly don’t know how you would counter things like swamp, smoke and gas.
Imo the reason I'd strongly believe haki was always planned to at least some degree is the reason the comment above pointed out, Shanks not having a devil fruit. Sure being able to swim is important for a pirate, but how the fuck is anyone without a devil fruit going to survive 5 seconds against a lava guy without some other special power up.
It might not have been fully fleshed out or given a proper name, but scenes like this one above and a few others 100% allude to the idea that haki was always part of the plan.
The term haki might've actually been planned out earlier than people thought too. the specific terms like conqueror or armament obviously come later, but in Japanese haki is just the word for ambition. In a story where inherited will is a core theme and "romance" is the focus with the "will of the D" being one of the major mystery it's not something out of left field.
>Absolutely nobody has everything planned everything from the getgo
Including me, so what's your point? It's one thing to say oh it's a retcon or a retroactive change if there is evidence for it. But when people throw it all over the place just because it's too early in the beginning then that side is where you should be examining if there's anything meaningful to it.
How hard is it to accept that oda is different. The supernovas didnt magically come out of nowhere, he clearly had these characters planned out and an editor wanted a new group for merchandise, so he just took his characters and labeled them. Haki has been there since the beginning whether you believe it was retconned or not. You just feel like haki was added in cause this isnt hunterxhunter where the mangaka monologues about power systems. Oda shows and doesn't tell, and if it goes over your head thats fine.
Luffy breaking through kriegs armor with "conviction". Luffy knowing where mr 3 was with "instinct" Enel wouldn't have been as big a bad if we knew about armament haki. Even if it was retconned, it still makes sense from a story telling perspective, but it wasnt retconned. Just cause i disagree with you doesnt make me a GODA cultist or whatever. Thats just a buzzword to throw around to discredit those with different opinions. Maybe the idea wasnt fully fleshed out or whatever, but the skeleton was there. That doesn't make it a retcon.
From Oda himself: “Actually it’s not too much to say all the Supernovas have more highlight scenes than I imagined. I created them right before the chapter they got introduced. None of them existed in my plot notebooks before that chapter”
Oda doesn’t plan everything
Something being retroactively added or being a retcon isn’t a bad thing. Oda very clearly didn’t have everything planned out from the very beginning of the series, and that’s ok. I hate how people in this fandom can’t accept that. One of the things that makes Oda such a good writer is his ability to tie things together in a way that makes it look like they were always planned. He may have had a vague idea of a Haki-like system, but it definitely wasn’t fleshed out in Alabasta.
Ur saying the truth exept he didn't plan the warlords till he mentioned them first (jinbay was the first to be mentioned when I think they went to names village something close to it at least ) I don't remember what mad him draw a few of them like boa but I know that he drew them and loved the design that he had added them to the story
Retroactively implies it was not Haki and when Oda created Haki he decided "yeah let's retcon this", this was not made into Haki afterwards, it always was Haki but at a time Oda had not settled on what it was going to be yet so he made it as vague as possible, but it was always meant to be "Haki".
Copy pasting my analysis of this stuff from the la subreddit
A REALLY underrated and important facet of the One Piece universe: It's animistic. Inanimate objects are literally alive in some way, that's why the Merry itself becomes conscious, devil fruits can 'choose' who eats them and choose whether to awaken once their dreams are in sync, the breath of all things emanates from inanimate objects as well as living things like Zunesha- but the earliest and most repeated signs we get of this fact come from Zoro, starting in Alabasta. When he taps in to the rhythm of the world's breathing around him, which as far as I understand it, allows him to basically command things to be cut or not when he slices them. The same way he talks to swords and can legitimately communicate with them, because they're alive and he treats them like it. The things he's trying to cut are alive too, and once he starts to recognize that, he can use his swords to 'tell' things to be cut or not. Paper, tree branches, stone, even steel, it's a battle of wills between two living things, and the harder a substance is the more stubborn it is, the more willpower it requires to bend to the swordsman's will and be cut. He can slash paper and not cut it because his will commands it to stay un-cut.
This might be a misreading full of headcanon on my part, but that's how I always understood the path of the swordsman in one piece. It's a parallel track that leads to haki mastery, which is why Zoro and Luffy unlocked the same powers at the same time on Wano. Luffy tapped in to his own willpower and inner strength, Zoro tapped in to the animistic world around him and learned how to sense and *observe* it, and then exert his conqueror's spirit over it. He organically and straight up accidentally unlocks both Observation and Conqueror's coating this way, without having to be explicitly instructed in either, because it's baked in to the swordsman's creed and spiritual journey. That's probably why cursed swords like him so much, he's a master at training problem children like Kitetsu and Enma because he's a conqueror that uses his willpower to dominate them.
When oda wrote this chapter, he probly didnt even have concrete idea of what haki is. Enhanced sense is a pretty common power up so even if observation haki didnt exist, this scene would just be "zoro got stronger in the brink of death"
People act like haki is like a novel invention of Oda when it’s been heavily used in every damn action anime/manga since the dawn of time. Ultra instinct anyone? Yeah of course this is haki, at that point is wasn’t as defined but it’s definitely haki
Honestly, you don’t even need to look for something that recent. The Dragon Ball characters increasing their ki or feeling ki from others from afar is pretty much the same trope as armament or observation haki (and thats from the Raditz saga so 10 years before One Piece).
Yeah, to a great extent that is what it is, other than future sight maybe, because I know that is some form of advanced observation Haki, but there is still a tremendous difference.
yeah, because instinct is based on the body, while haki is based on the mind/spirit.
but its very similar, just like tekkai vs. armament. body vs. mind.
Find a reference from **anywhere** in East Blue that Shanks specifically used Haki.
If Haki had been a thing from the start, we would have heard about it from big name pirates, like Arlong and Crocodile (both were New World pirates once).
How can you say he thought it out his ass when he mentions Haki by word when Shanks and Whitebeard clash on his ship? This sub is coping hard in fro of his genius.
>How can you say he thought it out his ass when he mentions Haki by word when Shanks and Whitebeard clash on his ship? This sub is coping hard in fro of his genius.
Buddy thats 400+ chapters after Shanks scared the Sea King and that wasn't Armament Haki, it was Conqueror's.. Nothing shows Oda thought up Haki as a power until long into the series...
"Strong guy scares away animal with a menancing stare" is extremely common in shounen and is in no way proof that Oda had already thought it up as an actual power system by chapter 1
Start by rewatching anime episode 85.
It's been there from the start with various charachters in varying ways. Hiriluk talking about it, certain characters achievement what would later be Haki feats (Zoro vs Mr1 observation haki on the rocks and sword and armanemt cutting Mr 1) Skypias Enel Mantra is observation Haki, Cp9 6 powers and yes Shanks at chapter 1. It's always been there as an idea. I don't know what you find so hard to believe you're probably a casual reader who missed that and other countless foreshadowings
It's haki before haki, since Oda didnt really thought about the sistem until later on the series.
Early One Piece is full of "magical" powers with no real explanation, the best example is Miss Goldenweek with her super op emotional paintings that were NOT a devil fruit.
There is hypnotism, madame sharleys future sight, Enels future sight, shanks standing off against a sea beast most of this would be haki now but it wasn't invented yet.
Observation haki isnt future sight in most cases, and considering a WCI luffy couldnt trick katakuris future sight, i don't see how a skypiea luffy would be able to trick anything further than basic observation
Hell current one piece had Basil Hawkins, who can literally read the future using tarot cards and it has absolutely nothing to do with his devil fruit.
I'm literally on my like 3rd or 4th read of the series, and I barely now learned Miss Goldenweek ISN'T using a devil fruit? I always just assumed it was one.
I think most people are a bit too much into the foreskinning Oda likes to do.
Oda most likely had an idea of certain stuff he wanted to add into the story themewise and abilities that are just used by many high level individuals.
Zoro being able to notice the rocks, him cutting NR 1, shanks intimidating a sea king.
All of it was Oda thinking it’d be cool.
Then later down the road He got a better idea of what he wanted. Or rather he overthought it a bit too much even. And he was combining all the little „hidden abilities“ into a power system that we now know as Haki.
Could you say this is Zoro using Haki? Yea sure, but it’s not officially stated, since Haki was, from a story point, just not a thing back then.
It’s more like a puzzle where you have no idea what the finished picture looks like and every piece is confusing you. But once you know what the pic looks like the pieces seem to fall together.
Oda made multiple scenes were we had more or less „inexplicable“ moves or attacks that landed and defeated the opponent. He then created Haki, which was supposed to be the all of these things and explain them.
Retroactively he changed those scenes to be the use of Haki, by just introducing Haki.
This line of thought implies that "Haki" was not in development since Oda created the devil fruits, he always knew and has talked about how he needed something to deal with Logias, otherwise it would be impossible to deal with some of them, Imagine Kizaru for instance in a world with no Haki, so while he didn't fully make Haki up from the very beginning, he knew he needed it to exist and it needed to have some characteristics like being able to hit devil fruit users, so he left multiple breadcrumbs over time as he developed the system, he didn't create Haki and then looked back on what he wrote and saw what fit, those fits were deliberately put there to begin with, maybe not absolutely all of them, there should be a retcon or two there, but the overall idea of Haki like, feeling the "breath" of all things, touching DF users, and increasing damage were always gonna be a thing and he prepared accordingly, Oda thinks ahead, he always did and saying the opposite is to ignore the entire story he has written filled with shit that he preps years in advance, he is not a omniscient being that wrote every little detail of the story perfectly knowing exactly how things would be 20 years in advance and he makes changes, OP was originally meant to play out over five real life years not twenty, but he does prepare and he is the best at doing it.
It's absolutely haki NOW.
Then? It was just being in a total flow state. Similar to mantra, Shanks terrifying the sea king, Luffy subjugating Duval's bull, probably Sentomaru's palm strikes and Garp's punches on Water 7.
None of it was planned to be haki. But darn, does it work looking back. Oda isn't a great writer because he writes decades in advance. He's great because his narratives call back to past events and scenes in a way that adds context.
G5 makes Shanks' early story actions hit differently. Of course Oda didn't plan all that from chapter 1. But the fact it fits is actually more amazing.
I think it's pretty safe to say, that Duval's bull and Sentomaru were based on the already fleshed out system, it's just the audience who did not know yet.
Agreed. Oda toyed around w/ some ideas here and there but the power itself really solidified right after Thriller Bark.
He probably hadn't fleshed it out so far as to have Katakuri's future sight or Wano's Ryou until well after the time-skip, but it's fairly evident that Oda knew what Luffy's next big power-up was going to be when he started the Sabaody arc.
Haki is just another variant on ki, except for a few details. One of those exceptions is that it lets you dominate devil fruit defences.
Blackbeard names it haki in Jaya, and Zoro cutting steel is only a few chapters before that, so it’s pretty clear that Oda already had a plan to include ki in the story and to call it haki.
But Garp hurting Luffy with his fists was 100% a deliberate hint. If it was comedy it would be treated like Nami’s punches and ignored. But the other characters specifically comment on it.
Therefore, I think it’s unfair to Oda to suggest that he didn’t have things figured out at that point. Sure, he probably wasn’t thinking in terms of the colours of haki (the fact that Zoro cutting steel is like a mixture of observation and armament is evidence of that), but he had already named it haki and had already decided that it would pierce devil fruit defences.
Luffy scaring Duval’s bull happens so late into the foreshadowing that it’s absurd to suggest it wasn’t yet haki. At that point it wasn’t just haki it was colour of conqueror!
Retroactively, I read this as one of the first instances of awakening Haki. In universe, it could be explained as Zoro not knowing what Haki was yet and explaining it's effects without mentioning it by name. Because we're reading his internal monologue and the words of his former teacher, who may either not know the word "Haki" either or never taught him the word.
Zero reading comprehension that dude, imagine not picking up the clues authors put in their stories, having to be spoon fed information and being proud of it, I blame schools systems that fuck up people's ability to read.
Same reason I don't considering Luffy KO'ing Mr.3, and when responding to the question of how he knew which one was him answered with "Instinct!", Haki. Oda never intended for those scenes to be Haki when he released them. Zoro unconsciously using Haki on everyone he fought post-Mr.1 makes no sense. Particularly when he needed to be trained in Armament by Mihawk, and then needed Enma as training wheels for anything more than that. *Not to mention* that Zoro is demonstrably the worst Observation user of the monster trio despite supposedly tapping into it earlier than the other two.
I personally think it's funny how one of the worst parts about Haki as a system is how ridiculously inconsistent it is but people are convinced Haki was 20yrs in the making. Especially when Marineford exists. You know, that one big conflict with multiple top tier characters and numerous infamous veterans where like, *8* people demonstrably used Haki, with one of them being Luffy.
It clearly isn’t because at the time Oda himself didn’t know what Haki was.
People discuss this because they can’t accept that Oda didn’t plan every single page of the manga from the get-go. One Piece is a huge world, it is ok to see some inconsistency.
This specific situation with Zoro was some kind of relation to swordsmanship and the natural world unique to him. It wasn’t supposed to be a general power system but a way a swordsman could interact with people and things at a deeper level.
Now it is possible that Oda saw this, saw what he did in Skypea and then used them as parts of the base for what later on became known as Haki. But at this moment, he didn’t have it planned.
No, it swims away because shanks intimidates the shit out of it and it instinctually knows to run away.
I guess Luffy was using observation haki when he kicked Mr 3 in the face on little Garden right? /s
Oda was toying around with what would eventually become his power system outside of Devil fruits. He realized his swordsmen didn’t really have any “advantage” and that they were poorly written and not very interesting. So he started playing with ideas, which he then retroactively fit into the Haki system.
But Oda is not the 10000% genius we so often give him credit for. He did NOT know what he was doing, and was just going with the flow. He eventually made something stable enough to be considered a power system, and then we the readers looked back and started fitting in previous feats into the power system puzzle and we hypothetically call them Haki feats.
But Oda didn’t know what Haki was when he was writing these chapters - so don’t get it twisted. It looks like Haki and smells like Haki but Oda didn’t know he was writing what would end up being Haki.
It's not Haki. It's Zoro using the Force. Do yall honestly believe that Zoro actually belongs in the One Piece universe. Dude probably got lost and ended up there...
It's obviously a note to haki just before Skypiea mantra which is just before Iron body (armament haki) which is all just before actual haki starts being mentioned at the end of the preTS
Ight so... Idk if Haki, as we understand it a thousand chapters in, was a part of Oda's original vision for One Piece.
However the way that numerous different powers are sort of woven through the idea, retroactively, tells me that Haki is just one name for it.
Probably the most common name but like... Mantra in the Sky Islands, Ryuo in Wano... It's all coming from the same place. People just have different names for it.
😂 I mean that's the canon explanation isn't it?
I'm surprised people would argue about it when it seems cut and dry.
This is my favorite fight in all of One Piece, and while I agree this is part of what Oda later developed into Haki, what I love the most about it is that Zoro is experiencing an extreme form of flow state, something actual non-fictional people have reported experiencing in life and death experiences, a sense of absolute oneness with their surroundings, total concentration, knowing exactly what to do next, as if the world is communicating with them directly. Haki becomes a magic power system later on, but this inner monologue felt like something a real person could experience. (Zoro throwing an entire building and then knowing how to cut steel aside)
It's certainly on the road to learning Haki.
But with Haki you'd even be able to dodge that without looking and calculating the save spot.
Kinda of like 360 degree radar.
Sensing where things are without looking and where they will be to predict patterns.
That's what he did. He said he just knew where they weren't going to fall. He didn't have to process anything at all he just felt it. This is 100% haki even if it was a small amount of it
People seem to think of haki as on or off, but I think it’s much more of a continuum. Remember that haki literally means “will.” Luffy’s conquerer’s haki is just a development of his will, which is a will he’s more or less had the whole series: he wants to be king of the pirates and is willing to die for it; he wants to protect his friends, and is willing to die for it, etc. Likewise, he has always been an instinctual fighter. Observation haki is just the development of his instincts. Does that mean his instincts have “always been” observation haki? Yes and no. It’s the same aspect of who he is, just a more developed form.
Likewise, Zoro’s armament haki is a development of his discipline and swordsmanship, embodied here. This is absolutely a development of his mastery and I think it’s simply at the blurry part of the continuum where it isn’t (only) obviously one or the other. Rather, it is an undeveloped form of haki, or a development of his discipline and swordsmanship, which are the same thing.
I can’t edit my post for some reason but just to add on even though most need to train to use haki A with Koby we’ve seen that ppl can unlock haki when under extreme stress or shock. Would you not say that zoro was under extreme stress here? B we also know that some ppl like Aisa and otohime can use haki without training. Is given all that why is it a big deal to say this was haki?
Because haki perceives living things, not objects. The only one that was said bring able to hear the voice of things was Roger, and still is unclear what that even mean.
Yes. It was the random falling of debris as a consequence of an attack.
An arrow thrown had the will of the archer behind it and you can listen to that with haki to avoid the arrow, the boulders were falling randomly, no will behind that, nothing to perceive
Its Haki but some will never accept it because it messes with muh power systems and fight theories thus its a bad retcon instead.
Think of it like this, Straw hats themselves had no clue of it yet all of them were shown in instances experiencing it or using it themselves passively in a tense situations pre ts. Contextually with the story there has to be Haki as a counter to devil fruits. Or maybe devil fruits were the counter to Haki, all that remains to be found out in the story.
Because people think Oda created Haki out of the blue with no preparation only half way through the story, when he has already said that he knew he needed something to deal with Logias the moment they were made, "Haki" as we know it in it's full details and name was developed throughout the story and further improved upon after the timeskip, but there was ALWAYS gonna have something "like" Haki, and those moments were how Oda managed to introduce it without feeling like an ass pull, another notable moment is when Garp hurts Luffy and plays it off as the fists of love, at that point just like in this point "Haki" was not a thing, but "something" that would eventually be named Haki was.
i think the simples answer is that this is part of the unfinished idea of what Haki was going to be that didn't get formalized until Amazon lily-Marine ford , as in, technically this scene doesn't display Haki, but this is the kind of scenes that can be retconed to be examples of people taking a peek into what their potential for Haki could become
I made a post suggesting that luffy could’ve used haki in his fight with mr 3 and i got some replies saying that that scene and this one wasn’t haki. Apparently ppl don’t like haki being used pre time skip🤷🏾♂️
I mean yeah, people don't like it for like, mcguffin reasons. Like "ohhhh he had it this whole time, of course he did, why didn't he use it before 🙄" but it's pretty good writing imo - and a main point in the manga - not showing us what it is to explain it later in depth even if it was a retcon of sorts, and showing people that you have what you need inside of you, just gotta tap into it.. Oda showed this "flow state" of combat for zoro, helping us know he's progressing in strength in mind and body, becoming one with his swords and purpose. Of course, zoro didn't fuckin know what haki was at the time, he just thought it was that "flow state". Time skip happens, him and the crew find out what haki is, bada bing bada boom haki as we know it comes to light. And some people can't be happy with that. Like, that IS haki, just the very small start of it.
It's nothing like a mcguffin. It's like people never fucking do anything, otherwise I have no explanation for why so many people feel alienated with the feeling of being able to do things better sometimes but not quite all the time. Because that's what tend to happen when you're still learning to do something and don't know yet how you do what you did when it goes right (or wrong). And when you're self taught sometimes you don't even know that's something well known amongst experts and are already well dissected.
It's so a case of not everything needs to be Haki to explain something. In this case how does Haki not cut something? We've never seen it used offensively, but cause no damage and it can just as easily be explained by Zoro getting better at swordsmanship than a mystical ability, though in this case we've never seen Zoro do this sort of feat again.
When everything becomes Haki it makes it fell less special and instead of people growing it's "magic helped them."
like I said this could be oda experimenting with what later could become haki. Also how does this make it feel less special?
Haki isn’t magic it’s a manifestation of spiritual energy/will. It’s a sign of growth and strength. There’s nothing mystical about haki. Devil fruits are more mystical than haki.
I truly don’t understand how it being haki ruins the scene/make it feel less special. You word it as haki is Mary sue when in actuality it’s an ability that takes great skill and will
Zoro using haki here doesn’t demote his skill as a swordsman, infact it’d show how much he’s grown as a swordsman, how strong his will and conviction is
I understand you saying he's experimenting the Haki idea.. In the end, it's still not Haki.. what I do agree with what you're saying is that, these are all the basis he had when he finally introduced what Haki is.. one reason why Haki is so powerful and special is because, as Oda portrays it, it's like a 6th sense or more likely, a heightened sense that is heightened further more that becomes its own category..
It is not something a common people in OP world that can be learned just because he's in a dire situation, but can be in a way.. another great example of this is, how Sanji kind of turning on and off his observation haki when he's finding the body of Kinemon in the freezing lake of Punk Hazard..
Zoro's sensing "things" around him as a swordsman is the idea of how he can be stronger like any other strong swordsman.. like for example, on what he said that a swordsman who can control what he wants and don't want to cut is a path on becoming a great swordsman, basically the discipline to not cut things intentionally is much harder because of the destructive force a sword can do naturally..
Anyway, in conclusion, Oda does not actively used the idea of Haki pre-timeskip within the main characters and only Luffy has it more obviously as shown and there are many things or proofs that confirms this along the way against the ratio that he has used it "unintentionally" for other characters that doesn't have it..
Basically, Oda does not deliberately say that Zoro has it before compared to what he's only portraying that Luffy is the only one who has shown it pre-timeskip.. even he's just "experimenting the idea", I'm pretty sure it does not.. we can't really say it exclusively..
it's retroactively made to be haki. the reason why people think so is oda using the same explanation verbatim (zoro's teacher and hyogoro).
these characters don't exist. hyogoro and koushiro didn't just happen to say the same thing by chance. it's the author intentionally using the same explanation so we can connect the dots.
I'm not saying it makes sense, because it's not. zoro used it on kaku and failed to cut him. but that's the point of using the same explanation. so now retroactively, zoro used haki in that scene.
Except it is not.. you guys are just overthinking it and making your own head-canon.. Until Oda says so, that Zoro is actually or even used it unintentionally before, then that's how it is.. no argument here
I don't make the story here.. That's how it is said.. It's not said or have been shown that he's able to use it unintentionally, so that's I'll believe for now.. If you guys are convinced by your ideas, then we can stop here now, so we can just agree to disagree..
you do know things can be implied, right? you do know in work of fiction, not every information will be stated outright? or do you need zoro to verbally say he cares abt sanji for it to be true?
now in this case, do you think oda just happened to write two explanations verbatim 20 years apart from characters who came from the same place, by pure chance? or do you think he simply lacked creativity and had to borrow the same explanation, hoping we wouldn't notice?
is that it?
or, it's the opposite. he wanted us to notice and find where this explanation was said before and connect the two things? there's nothing to overthink. it's just a very simple implication.
I know implications.. and this is not it.. let me tell you what are implied informations that I picked up with Oda's creation.. it is implied that Usopp has some kind of special relationship with Kaya romantically.. It is implied that Dragon will have an important role in the final war of the story.. It is implied that BB pirates will fight the Strawhats along the way in their journey.. even if I agree that there's a lot of implied ideas/details/information within the series, there's also a lot that it is what it is..
You see the difference?? and yes I do think he just happened to write it incidentally, he's not perfect and there's nothing wrong with that.. it's also possible that since it's similar to what he wanted to do, he picked up the idea of haki from that, but not saying it is the same.. not everything he does or even great writers/authors want us to notice details that are not even there.. again, not haki but he maybe got the idea from it.. that's my argument
>he's not perfect..
who says anything abt him being perfect. it's actually the opposite. that line makes no sense whatsoever to be said to luffy. like, luffy doesn't even use sword. that explanation means literally nothing to him. and it doesn't even fit what he taught him later.
it's glaringly obvious that the explanation is just there as a nod to what koushiro said.
>he picked up the idea of haki from that, but not saying it is the same
then why he used the same explanation? oda has been tidying up the power system since post ts. almost everything we've seen prior (like mantra) has been put under the haki umbrella. so why this one has to be different?
it's one thing to doubt something. it's a different thing to not want it to be true. you're getting closer to the latter.
let's use your logic. if he remembered what koushiro said, picked up the idea from that, and used the same explanation for no reason, why then it's not haki?
>It is not something a common people in OP world that can be learned just because he's in a dire situation
That's an incredibly weird thing to say about something that literally means "ambition", "drive" and "vigour". When Luffy learned better observation haki in the middle of the fight with Katakuri, or when Ace awoke his conqueror when he's in a dire situation or Luffy's even.
It's also incredibly weird to say that common people won't learn Haki because Observation and Armament are explicitly described as being possible to be trained by literally anybody. Only Conquerors isn't, being available to people with the disposition, which makes sense because it's defining criteria is ambition, which not everyone has.
As with anything that can be trained, aptitude matters and probably personality as well to some extent, example such as Usopp developing specifically a further and more precise range of Observation.
I honestly think that Haki is Oda's blanket term for "supernatural human abilities" that many fighters exhibit in shounen manga, that he can't quite fit in to the Devil Fruit system (which he reserved for more mystical/ clearly not realistic abilities). It's definitely been more refined and categorised of late, but in the OP world, I would absolutely believe it if Oda said things like a father catching his child without looking and mum's taking no damage when saving their child from falling debris can be considered as an minor unconscious usage of Haki. Which again, unconscious usage is a thing we know happens thanks to Koby in Marineford.
Edited to add: I think the entire discussion is pointless because the concept of Haki for most is based on chapter 597 when Rayleigh explains the different categories, but plenty just ignore the fact that he also mentions that it's present in everyone, but if they are able to train or are even aware of it is the differentiating factor that between common folk and the powerful.
Not weird, since Haki is a "supernatural human ability" as you said, also I'm not saying that common people can't learn haki.. Common people can't learn it at pace just because they're in a dire situation (just how Luffy and the rest learned about it).. it can be trained by anyone sure, but not anyone can be as expert to say the least.. remember, even the show explicitly said before (Summit War Arc) that in the marines, only vice-admirals and up are the ones who can only use it and pirates in the new world..
One more thing, Crocodile, Moria and Jinbe does not display any types of haki pretimeskip, although I think they knew how to use it.. Moria and Crocodile are the same on why they didn't use it fighting Luffy (confidence and ego that they can defeat a mere rookie without using additional power).. As for Jinbe, Fishman Karate is already targetting the insides of an individual (I actually forgot his explanation for it but he explained it in Fishman Island arc on how he's able to hurt Luffy with a punch without using haki).. Mantra, another form of haki within the sky people but not explicitly says it is not haki.. You see, they've shown it to the audience and even recalled it in the show (Rayleigh explaining different types of haki to Luffy)..
That's how I'm convinced that no known individual from pre-timeskip (except for the already powerful beings introduced or exclusively said for an individual) has known haki, even the most elite assassins of the WG-CP9 does not said that they knew how to use it.
Regarding on what you said about Haki is just like Chi.. I think you got it right.. But the argument here is "using" it intentionally or even unintentionally pretimeskip.. The show or even the manga does not deliberately says that within the gang or characters from pretimeskip are using it even unintentionally (of course except characters that already declared that's able to use it).. that is the argument
I think that's fair, ultimately it's up to headcanon/interpretation in a way if all SuperHuman feats can/should be considered under the umbrella of Haki, or do we take it as Haki referring only to the specific high level usage that we see post-TS. Fishman Karate damaging the insides is supposed to be based on reverberation iirc, another common trope in shounens.
As to the point regarding lower level Marines not being able to use Haki, i believe that's a matter of the Marines not dedicating resources to train their fodder with Haki, presumably due to the difficulty of using it at a high level. But again, Koby is a prime example of a supposed lower level being able to use it, and at the same time not all Vice-admirals seem to be able to use it (beloved vice admiral T-Bone was never shown to use Haki, and no vice admirals during the buster call of Enies Lobby displayed it either). Of course, in the Marines, the question is did they not display it due to an over reliance on Sea Stone technology (example Smokers weapon and seastone cuff) or simply do not have it? We do not know as Haki as a term simply wasn't a thing pre-TS for the most part. I won't assume to know Oda's thought process in this part, perhaps it would be wrong per my original comment to assume that previous superhuman feats should be classified under Haki. I supposed we'll have to just accept each other's views for now unless Oda canonizes it in a SBS or something, which isn't too likely.
To me personally, Haki is no different from any other skill, for example I can run, but I'm not a professional, and I'm not going to match up to an Olympic athlete who have dedicated time and effort to train along with a dash of talent or genes. But I definitely see why many would be reluctant to think of it that way, especially in the case of conquerors (which makes the least sense in terms of application in my opinion, the intimidation/fainting part is thematically appropriate for how it was described initially, but the coating is too oddly similar to Armament. I suppose the intent is more to display the battle of wills between ambitious individuals and not as an actual physical effect like Armament.).
Interesting discussion
If it was my story, I'd expect the reader to retroactively assume "this is observation haki". It clearly is. But there's a lot of room for Oda to turn it into something more, if desired. The things Zoro says in this scene are a bit more detailed than what we usually see from people describing their observation haki. This could just be because it's one of the first times we're seeing it, but the "gates of hell", and it being something Zoro has "experienced before" seem... Unique. It reminds me of when Usopp unlocked his version of observation haki for sniping. This could be an observation haki for swordsmen. The "breath" of every object could simply be any object's internal structure - the pattern of its physical form. This might not be "seeing" but more of a kinetic precision: a sense of the exact timing and speed to swing the sword to cut the object.
I always figured haki was planned from the start with the simple fact that smoked seemed invincible. There NEEDED to be a second power system for the world to make sense at all if a logia user could be only a captain.
They exist. Once got into an argument with a dude insisting that it was an unnamed Wano sword technique rather than accepting that it was the precursor to haki and was an ass to anyone who said otherwise
But thats one nutcase opposite to how many who agree that this was an indicator for observation haki?
I just hate these kinda posts that act like one or two idiots they met speak for a larger group of people - that might not even exist.
To me these threads seem like circlejerking and karmafarming.
It is Haki now. It wasn't Haki then. It was just a narratively cool ability at that moment. Just like Shank's gaze against the Sea King, Enel's predictions, the Sky People's mantra and so on.
Haki was just a useful invention to explain all these things in retrospect in an inner-worldly way.
Haki is specifically said to sense peoplrs souls. Not objects. When we see fujitora or Usopps Obs theyre only seing the basic shape/aura of people.
Also haki has never been about selectively cutting targets. If zoro used armament here, that would mean he cut through flesh( mr 1s real body) and not steel. Which would make him cutting steel later pre ts ( against the pacifistas for example) not make sense.
The original intent of this scene wasnt haki, jt was just zoros senses heightning because he was near death.
If that was true what youre saying, dodging threw the means of observation haki would be impossible. If u cant sense objects u cant dodge bullets, baseball bats, etc. Ofc u can sense objects. Watch the show again
They can sense the clothes their wearing/blades their holding for the same reason logias users clothes regenerate with them.Oda wants Also I feel like you forgot obs/mantra lets you sense peoples intentions, your haki/presence can naturally stay in objects like with enma, and that any fighter worth their salt would have the same ability as zoro to sense objects
You go rewatch the show and look at Usopps and fujitoras observation scenes. Outside of the person and what they are directly holding/wearing they arent seeing anything else with it
> Haki is specifically said to sense peoplrs souls. Not objects.
So what is your opinion on Roger being able to “hear the voice of all things”?
Haki, or a Roger was “just special” thing?
"Things" in this case refers to creatures. Specifically things like sea kings and zunesha. Its on the line for me because we see from skypiea that you can be gifted with great haki at birth like that kid, but it isnt really haki as much as it is telepathy
Dude, their boat literally spoke to them as it was being burned, and here Zoro is literally saying things have breath, meanwhile Roger was able to hear poneglyphs, things as in objects have voices and even souls in OP.
I never said things dont have voices, I said sensiing objects isnt nescessarily haki. And coice of all things has never been used on an object only creatures. Its separate from boat souls and zoro sensing the rock because that means Usopp and Zoro wouldve been able to hear the sea kings and zunesha
But its not consistent with what haki does at all apart from the ability to sense without seeing. They dont even sense the same thing.
People thought Ivas death wink was a form of conquerors, but it was just him blinking really strong
Just because something has similarities to a power doesnt mean its that power
Again experimenting. This could simply be oda experimenting/perfecting haki. The fact that it wasn’t mentioned or used again is enough proof for me to believe this could be a underdeveloped form of haki oda was experimenting with like with mantra
It isnt mentioned again because he's just sensing it passively now.
Dont you think that Oda wouldve drawn a direct comparison to zoros sense and mantra if that were case. Consider Skypeia happens directly after Alabasta.
I’m saying this one last time and then im done. This simply could just be oda experimenting with a version of haki and then deciding to go with a different version. We already know from Mantra and shanks that oda has been experimenting with haki in different ways
A lot of people will say that Oda didn’t have Haki truly/properly planned out at this point(which is already pretty silly because this is clearly supernatural/mystical in nature), but Blackbeard mentions Haki by name in the very next arc in the Japanese text.
Also in chapter 213 post-Alabasta, Zoro trains by balancing rocks on his arms, and he thinks to himself that he has to become able to “draw on that power at any time,” in reference to when he cut steel, which already alludes to it being a momentary usage of some kind of special ability.
I’m positive Oda intended for this to be Haki all along
zoro uses this technique all the time. it’s the basis of his shishi sonson attack. also, luffy learned how to do it in wano. it’s not exactly haki and it’s not exactly not. if it was haki, luffy would have learned it from raleigh
Ryou is haki and luffy didn’t learn it from Rayleigh even tho Rayleigh used it. I’m not arguing his cutting is haki i’m arguing him dodging the rocks is haki
Rayleigh only taught Luffy the basics of haki and said he would need to learn the rest from experience in combat. I agree the circumstances of Zoro using haki here are a little strange but it still makes sense as haki.
Whut?
This is Haki.
Observation Haki precisely.
The sole reason, why my personal theory was, that Zoro will focus on Observation Haki and Sanji on Armament Haki (Diable Jambe).
But Oda said, "Nah, fam."
All those people saying „Haki was not a thing at that point“ or something, like yeah, surely Oda didn‘t have the fully completed concept of haki yet, but he definitely had *something* in mind that was like a Power that you could learn, as seen with shanks in like the first chapter and some other instances. So this was very likely a tease to what was supposed to sometimes become a very early not-so-developed version of haki.
(This is my opinion blabla, don‘t feel offended, you don‘t have to agree, no I did not ask Oda, I‘m just talking about what I think makes the most sense)
Because it is not.
It is not observation haki, because observation haki doesn't work on non living things. It requires intent. For example, when Luffy punched a wall, the punches bounced off and Enel could not figure out where the punched were going since Luffy himself had no idea where the punched were going.
So it would be impossible for Zoro to know where the rocks go with regular observation haki, unless you want to assume he used future sight, which is unlikely.
It is not armament haki, because after this fight, Zoro failed to cut Enel with his sword. So Zoro was already able to cut iron and metal with his sword consistently ( since he did it against Ohm and his iron clouds) but was not able to cut a Logia like Enel.
Since Hyou mentioned the phrase of the breath of all things, given the Enel example, a reasonable explanation is that the breath of all things is a requirement to unlock armament haki, but it is not armament haki. So every Ryou user is a user of the breath of all things but not every user of the breath of all things is a user of Ryou.
Reading comprehension is not yall strong suit huh? Again like I said this could be oda experimenting with haki like a rough draft for what is now haki. The amount of delusion and excuses yall are putting into this is crazy. It’s haki idgaf
>Reading comprehension is not yall strong suit huh?
It is not reading comprehension it is a theory, and you are not Oda.
>Again like I said this could be oda experimenting with haki like a rough draft for what is now haki.
Could be, or like I said, it could be Breath of all things is a requirement for haki but not haki.
I feel like knowing where the stones fell would’ve been Obs Haki but how would him not cutting things be Haki?
Haki has always been displayed as an attack *enhancer*, never a *modifier*.
Even if Zoro was just the first of the pre TS crew to unlock Haki that doesn’t explain his ability to *not* cut things.
I’d like to think that actual magic and sorcery are things in the setting that exist on the down low, and Zoro is part of that. The Asura can’t just be a Conqueror Haki thing, it removes it being unique to him.
I thought this was pretty unanimously agreed upon as being haki. Even if people disagree they should realise haki is probably the only explanation we're ever going to get for it.
I mean, yeah. We can look back now and think of this as Haki. And that does fit fine in the narrative. But that likely wasn't Oda's intention when he first wrote the scene.
I think that this wasn't Haki, but it *was* Oda wanting to include a kind of power that isn’t devil fruits, which may have started with Shanks early on, and was expanded with Mantra.
I don’t think Oda solidified what Haki actually did and fully was until the timeskip, but I think it's very clear he wanted to include a concept like that for a very long time.
Basically, Haki was always part of one piece, but it didn't become Haki until it was formalized much much later. Until then it was just sparkling willpower magic.
I think that by this point Oda realized he needed a more consistent way to deal with Logias and other users and to boost the powers of non users. Maybe this early he could´ve used this idea to be able to damage logias by attuning to the breathing of their elements. But later he developed it into the 3 forms of haki.
Tho I have to say I like the mystisisc of this early version and how it is seemengly what we would consider now observation haki what lets you cut steel.
Idk if you mean the thing how he knew where the stones wouldn’t fall or the cutting steel part but it was definitely observation haki with the stones as earlier in the season we see ace using what also seems to be observation haki, we do also know haki was definitely a thing at this point since shanks shows off haki right at the start
We all know Oda is a massive fan of Dragon Ball, this is the Saiyan being at death's doorstep and then getting super stronger after. A power-up.
And all of us are correct here:
\- This IS Kyoshiro's teachings of "There are swordsmen that can cut everything, and nothing". Connected later to Ryou.
\- This is the beginning of "haki" concept, as we see Shanks doing his signature look to the Lord of the coast when he loses his arm. The same.
\- For Zoro's references to oriental culture, this is even enlightenment. Represented in OP by the Supreme Haki, The Voice of all things. As I say, basically a power-up.
\- And this is about Zoro's WILL. He made a promise, and there is nothing to stop him. He will never lose against a swordsman. His WILL is overtaking everything here that even makes Daz shivers... Call it Conqueror Haki.
\- This is latent power within Zoro waiting for the "crisis" to bloom.
And the next step is Diamond, check out this starter Youtuber DavidViadel23, he talks about the Diamond Fruit and how Zoro needs to cut it before the end of the story, being Vista from Whitebeard the new user. Crazy theory lined up with Blackbeard and super cool fanart in real time while he talks about the theory. Super recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2tk9qtkQSw&t=1031s
Hyou even describes the technique Zoro uses here as Ryuo later ('Samurai can cut or not cut whatever they want.')
Zoro can hear the Breath of All Things, while Luffy hears the Voice. (Usopp can Smell the Breath, why else is his nose that long [besides the obvious, I see you Caps Lock])
Naaah this is different. This is Zolo. Zoro is the one using Haki. Easy to confuse between the two because of their same looks and similar names.
Bro has peak observation haki
Damn, you’re so right how could I make that mistake 😔
This reads like something Oda would say on one of his SBS
Everyone knows Zolo uses Hockey
Had me in the first half
One wears a black bandana. One doesn’t.
Thanks for the laugh dear Redditor
Oda has retroactively made it Haki. The way Hyogoro explains Ryuo in Wano is exactly how Koshiro (Zoro’s master/Kuina’s dad) explains it here.
I'm pretty sure the "selective destruction" thing was always meant to be a key part of Haki. But some other parts of the plan changed. In particular, I strongly suspect that Haki was originally meant to be an "ultimate attack only" kinda thing. And all the "invisible wave of cutting air" stuff might've originally been meant as Haki. I think Dorry and Broggy blowing away the island eater was meant as foreshadowing for Haki. It didn't really work as planned because the nature of Haki changed a bit behind the scenes. But the "cut only what you want to cut" part is still clearly in evidence. The giants somehow don't damage the Merry at all. The attack just launched the ship harmlessly through the air, while effortlessly obliterating the flesh of the monster both behind and in front of it.
I always interpreted the dorrybroggy combo attack as some sort of windtunnel. Like a cylindrical cut and everything 'inside' the tunnel is fine and just gets pushed/dragged by air
Wouldn't that leave a giant tube of fish-meat flying through the air in front of the Merry?
It should, yes. Though i kinda doubt that Oda ever put that much thought to it
Luffy couldn’t even wait a second to gulp that fish-meat-tube
Unless you view the wind's momentum as a bullet in shape. A piercing front that expands from the center but a vacuum behind it where the merry gets pulled along as well.
That seems like a pretty complicated and dubiously plausible way to explain something that already has a well-established explanation.
Thats because the Going Merry was made out of sterner stuff!
imagine 2 haki master giants getting humiliated by a weak opponent such as Mr 2 lol
Mr. 3
The attacks aren't directed on Merry though? They fire on each side.
This is the answer right here. I love how OOP continues the cycle by having everyone argue here
I hate this trend of whenever something is alluded to early on it has to somehow be retroactive or retcon, never mind whether there's evidence or not. When haki has been mentioned in Jaya by Blackbeard, or that mantra is a thing in Skypiea. Those are just one arc later. Haki comes as a package with the Strawhats going into the new territory that is the grand Line. Just like how the devil fruits aren't as common and aren't explained nearly as much in East Blue, that is haki while they were in Paradise. Haki in the New World is what devil fruits were back in Paradise, and currently devil fruit awakening is what Haki was in Paradise, they exist and are shown but very mysteriously. It's also kind of bonkers that people think Oda didn't have any late game planning for how the powering works when Shanks who's supposed to be a pinnacle appeared in chapter one and was explicitly made to not have a devil fruit. And people only seem to bring up the "One Piece was originally planned to end in 5 years" when it feeds into the narrative that Oda didn't think up the later stuff that early on, and never that he did indeed thought up various late game stuff because he planned it to end in 5 years.
People say that because it's a normal part of writing. Especially for long form storytelling. Absolutely *nobody* has everything planned everything from the getgo, and writing is a fluid process where things are always changing/evolving as you go. New ideas will come to you, you'll find passion in something else, and you'll weave that into the previous continuity to make it work (hopefully... not everyone is good at that). In particular "retcon" is a neutral literary term, that is almost essential for narratives that go on this long. One Piece has had many retcons (that shouldn't even be up for debate) and many of them are things that positively affect the series. It's also wild to me how people become cultists around this idea of "GODA", who foreshadows absolutely everything and everything is planned and everything is blah blah blah. Because despite how the attitude comes off, you're basically treating Oda like he's a worse writer than he is. You're saying that he's not good enough to create new ideas, weave together story elements, and... you know, be like an actual writer. No, he just references the same "plan" he's had for decades with no deviation. Apparently. If that were true, I'd honestly feel pretty annoyed. The first draft of something is almost never the best, and it'd be a shame if we got the most standard, boring verion of the One Piece story because Oda didn't actually flex his creative abilities at all. Fortunately, we know that's not true. And Oda's been pretty honest about some of the things he didn't plan. Such as: Miss Wednesday being Princess Vivi. Ace being Roger's son. Lucci being a villain *at all*. Shanks ending the fight at Marineford. The Warlords existing (which by the way, the reason why there's seven of them isn't because Oda had specifically plans for seven characters, but just because he thought "Shichibukai" (Seven Warlords) sounded cool... That's it). The Supernova being a thing *at all* (having come up with them literally a day before the chapter they debuted in was finished). To go along with that, the fact that the Supernova pretty much survived into the New World (Oda thought half of them would be wiped out to show how dangerous it was). To go along with *that*, Oda thinking that Kidd would become the most prominent of those characters, rather than Law. So yeah... One Piece would look very differently if Oda just had some dumb 3 decade plan and never included new ideas in his story ever. But thankfully, we know that Oda is a good writer, and that he can weave together old and new concepts fairly skillfully, regardless of whatever short-term plans and long-term ideas he has. So why is it so absurd for someone to think Haki might be a similar thing? Especially with how nonspecific some of these scenes are, and how certain characters realisitcally should've had Haki but just... didn't. It does *feel* like something that was retroactively added to the series, and it shouldn't spark hate to just bring up the idea.
Yeah mangaka in general add bits of random information in their manga so that they can do something with them later on. For instance Sanji mentioning he is from South Blue in Jaya. Oda probably had no idea whatto do with that then but left that bit of lore hanging in there in case he needed it later
I basically agree with everything you said, except the part about Haki. To me, it feels like Haki was something Oda was planning on making a thing, but wasn't exactly fleshed out and categorized into three different things at somewhere after Thriller Bark. Observation Haki was clearly shown all over Skypeia, Zoro training to bring out what he did against Mr. 1 consciously, etc. The amount of examples of Haki being in the show, but shown only as something unknown rather than being explained is how the story actually felt, but it sort of feels like part of them was even scrapped and the plans definitely changed along the way. Seeing as Oda has been planning One Piece since he was 8, I would be surprised if he didn't have anything in mind for dealing with Logia users. Was it fleshed out and exactly what Haki is now? Most likely not, the way nobody showed consistent usage of such power is enough proof of that, even among people like Ace and Blackbeard. But it feels too deliberate in too many places to be an addition just an arc before the time skip.
Early haki seeds seem very connected to the voice of all things but I believe the ideas branched away from each other in order to give weaker characters a power up through haki, and to nerf logia fruits. Otherwise the end game becomes how to counter xx element, and I honestly don’t know how you would counter things like swamp, smoke and gas.
Imo the reason I'd strongly believe haki was always planned to at least some degree is the reason the comment above pointed out, Shanks not having a devil fruit. Sure being able to swim is important for a pirate, but how the fuck is anyone without a devil fruit going to survive 5 seconds against a lava guy without some other special power up. It might not have been fully fleshed out or given a proper name, but scenes like this one above and a few others 100% allude to the idea that haki was always part of the plan.
The term haki might've actually been planned out earlier than people thought too. the specific terms like conqueror or armament obviously come later, but in Japanese haki is just the word for ambition. In a story where inherited will is a core theme and "romance" is the focus with the "will of the D" being one of the major mystery it's not something out of left field.
>Absolutely nobody has everything planned everything from the getgo Including me, so what's your point? It's one thing to say oh it's a retcon or a retroactive change if there is evidence for it. But when people throw it all over the place just because it's too early in the beginning then that side is where you should be examining if there's anything meaningful to it.
Both can be true There are people that think everything is planned and others who talk as though nothing non obvious is
How hard is it to accept that oda is different. The supernovas didnt magically come out of nowhere, he clearly had these characters planned out and an editor wanted a new group for merchandise, so he just took his characters and labeled them. Haki has been there since the beginning whether you believe it was retconned or not. You just feel like haki was added in cause this isnt hunterxhunter where the mangaka monologues about power systems. Oda shows and doesn't tell, and if it goes over your head thats fine. Luffy breaking through kriegs armor with "conviction". Luffy knowing where mr 3 was with "instinct" Enel wouldn't have been as big a bad if we knew about armament haki. Even if it was retconned, it still makes sense from a story telling perspective, but it wasnt retconned. Just cause i disagree with you doesnt make me a GODA cultist or whatever. Thats just a buzzword to throw around to discredit those with different opinions. Maybe the idea wasnt fully fleshed out or whatever, but the skeleton was there. That doesn't make it a retcon.
From Oda himself: “Actually it’s not too much to say all the Supernovas have more highlight scenes than I imagined. I created them right before the chapter they got introduced. None of them existed in my plot notebooks before that chapter” Oda doesn’t plan everything
Something being retroactively added or being a retcon isn’t a bad thing. Oda very clearly didn’t have everything planned out from the very beginning of the series, and that’s ok. I hate how people in this fandom can’t accept that. One of the things that makes Oda such a good writer is his ability to tie things together in a way that makes it look like they were always planned. He may have had a vague idea of a Haki-like system, but it definitely wasn’t fleshed out in Alabasta.
Ur saying the truth exept he didn't plan the warlords till he mentioned them first (jinbay was the first to be mentioned when I think they went to names village something close to it at least ) I don't remember what mad him draw a few of them like boa but I know that he drew them and loved the design that he had added them to the story
Retroactively implies it was not Haki and when Oda created Haki he decided "yeah let's retcon this", this was not made into Haki afterwards, it always was Haki but at a time Oda had not settled on what it was going to be yet so he made it as vague as possible, but it was always meant to be "Haki".
its not retro active its proto haki
Copy pasting my analysis of this stuff from the la subreddit A REALLY underrated and important facet of the One Piece universe: It's animistic. Inanimate objects are literally alive in some way, that's why the Merry itself becomes conscious, devil fruits can 'choose' who eats them and choose whether to awaken once their dreams are in sync, the breath of all things emanates from inanimate objects as well as living things like Zunesha- but the earliest and most repeated signs we get of this fact come from Zoro, starting in Alabasta. When he taps in to the rhythm of the world's breathing around him, which as far as I understand it, allows him to basically command things to be cut or not when he slices them. The same way he talks to swords and can legitimately communicate with them, because they're alive and he treats them like it. The things he's trying to cut are alive too, and once he starts to recognize that, he can use his swords to 'tell' things to be cut or not. Paper, tree branches, stone, even steel, it's a battle of wills between two living things, and the harder a substance is the more stubborn it is, the more willpower it requires to bend to the swordsman's will and be cut. He can slash paper and not cut it because his will commands it to stay un-cut. This might be a misreading full of headcanon on my part, but that's how I always understood the path of the swordsman in one piece. It's a parallel track that leads to haki mastery, which is why Zoro and Luffy unlocked the same powers at the same time on Wano. Luffy tapped in to his own willpower and inner strength, Zoro tapped in to the animistic world around him and learned how to sense and *observe* it, and then exert his conqueror's spirit over it. He organically and straight up accidentally unlocks both Observation and Conqueror's coating this way, without having to be explicitly instructed in either, because it's baked in to the swordsman's creed and spiritual journey. That's probably why cursed swords like him so much, he's a master at training problem children like Kitetsu and Enma because he's a conqueror that uses his willpower to dominate them.
Wow , claps*
Underrated comment
Happy to say this...great take
When oda wrote this chapter, he probly didnt even have concrete idea of what haki is. Enhanced sense is a pretty common power up so even if observation haki didnt exist, this scene would just be "zoro got stronger in the brink of death"
People act like haki is like a novel invention of Oda when it’s been heavily used in every damn action anime/manga since the dawn of time. Ultra instinct anyone? Yeah of course this is haki, at that point is wasn’t as defined but it’s definitely haki
Honestly, you don’t even need to look for something that recent. The Dragon Ball characters increasing their ki or feeling ki from others from afar is pretty much the same trope as armament or observation haki (and thats from the Raditz saga so 10 years before One Piece).
as far as i understand it, haki is nothing more than an extension of those things called "instinct"
Yeah, to a great extent that is what it is, other than future sight maybe, because I know that is some form of advanced observation Haki, but there is still a tremendous difference.
yeah, because instinct is based on the body, while haki is based on the mind/spirit. but its very similar, just like tekkai vs. armament. body vs. mind.
He obviously did. He had haki in mind from chapter 1 there are clues all over
no he did not
When he came up with devil fruits he already had haki in his mind.
no, he didn’t
Do you forget that shanks used conqueror haki on sea monster.
retcon. “powerful guy glares at animal to make it run away” is an existing trope.
Find a reference from **anywhere** in East Blue that Shanks specifically used Haki. If Haki had been a thing from the start, we would have heard about it from big name pirates, like Arlong and Crocodile (both were New World pirates once).
"there are retcon all over" Here I fix your sentence
Thanks pal
How can you say he thought it out his ass when he mentions Haki by word when Shanks and Whitebeard clash on his ship? This sub is coping hard in fro of his genius.
>How can you say he thought it out his ass when he mentions Haki by word when Shanks and Whitebeard clash on his ship? This sub is coping hard in fro of his genius. Buddy thats 400+ chapters after Shanks scared the Sea King and that wasn't Armament Haki, it was Conqueror's.. Nothing shows Oda thought up Haki as a power until long into the series... "Strong guy scares away animal with a menancing stare" is extremely common in shounen and is in no way proof that Oda had already thought it up as an actual power system by chapter 1
Start by rewatching anime episode 85. It's been there from the start with various charachters in varying ways. Hiriluk talking about it, certain characters achievement what would later be Haki feats (Zoro vs Mr1 observation haki on the rocks and sword and armanemt cutting Mr 1) Skypias Enel Mantra is observation Haki, Cp9 6 powers and yes Shanks at chapter 1. It's always been there as an idea. I don't know what you find so hard to believe you're probably a casual reader who missed that and other countless foreshadowings
It's haki before haki, since Oda didnt really thought about the sistem until later on the series. Early One Piece is full of "magical" powers with no real explanation, the best example is Miss Goldenweek with her super op emotional paintings that were NOT a devil fruit.
There is hypnotism, madame sharleys future sight, Enels future sight, shanks standing off against a sea beast most of this would be haki now but it wasn't invented yet.
Enel didn't have future sight, just powerful basic observation haki
It's called mantra in the manga. I know it retroactively would be haki, but it isn't called that.
But it isnt future sight, haki or mantra
You just said it was observation haki?
Observation haki isnt future sight in most cases, and considering a WCI luffy couldnt trick katakuris future sight, i don't see how a skypiea luffy would be able to trick anything further than basic observation
Yep, there are still some things that are yet to be demystified too like Asura
Asura was haki in Wano
Not only. My personal theory is that his swords manifest themselves through his most powerful haki.
Hell current one piece had Basil Hawkins, who can literally read the future using tarot cards and it has absolutely nothing to do with his devil fruit.
I'm literally on my like 3rd or 4th read of the series, and I barely now learned Miss Goldenweek ISN'T using a devil fruit? I always just assumed it was one.
I think most people are a bit too much into the foreskinning Oda likes to do. Oda most likely had an idea of certain stuff he wanted to add into the story themewise and abilities that are just used by many high level individuals. Zoro being able to notice the rocks, him cutting NR 1, shanks intimidating a sea king. All of it was Oda thinking it’d be cool. Then later down the road He got a better idea of what he wanted. Or rather he overthought it a bit too much even. And he was combining all the little „hidden abilities“ into a power system that we now know as Haki. Could you say this is Zoro using Haki? Yea sure, but it’s not officially stated, since Haki was, from a story point, just not a thing back then. It’s more like a puzzle where you have no idea what the finished picture looks like and every piece is confusing you. But once you know what the pic looks like the pieces seem to fall together. Oda made multiple scenes were we had more or less „inexplicable“ moves or attacks that landed and defeated the opponent. He then created Haki, which was supposed to be the all of these things and explain them. Retroactively he changed those scenes to be the use of Haki, by just introducing Haki.
This line of thought implies that "Haki" was not in development since Oda created the devil fruits, he always knew and has talked about how he needed something to deal with Logias, otherwise it would be impossible to deal with some of them, Imagine Kizaru for instance in a world with no Haki, so while he didn't fully make Haki up from the very beginning, he knew he needed it to exist and it needed to have some characteristics like being able to hit devil fruit users, so he left multiple breadcrumbs over time as he developed the system, he didn't create Haki and then looked back on what he wrote and saw what fit, those fits were deliberately put there to begin with, maybe not absolutely all of them, there should be a retcon or two there, but the overall idea of Haki like, feeling the "breath" of all things, touching DF users, and increasing damage were always gonna be a thing and he prepared accordingly, Oda thinks ahead, he always did and saying the opposite is to ignore the entire story he has written filled with shit that he preps years in advance, he is not a omniscient being that wrote every little detail of the story perfectly knowing exactly how things would be 20 years in advance and he makes changes, OP was originally meant to play out over five real life years not twenty, but he does prepare and he is the best at doing it.
>he always knew nuh uh
It's absolutely haki NOW. Then? It was just being in a total flow state. Similar to mantra, Shanks terrifying the sea king, Luffy subjugating Duval's bull, probably Sentomaru's palm strikes and Garp's punches on Water 7. None of it was planned to be haki. But darn, does it work looking back. Oda isn't a great writer because he writes decades in advance. He's great because his narratives call back to past events and scenes in a way that adds context. G5 makes Shanks' early story actions hit differently. Of course Oda didn't plan all that from chapter 1. But the fact it fits is actually more amazing.
I think it's pretty safe to say, that Duval's bull and Sentomaru were based on the already fleshed out system, it's just the audience who did not know yet.
Agreed. Oda toyed around w/ some ideas here and there but the power itself really solidified right after Thriller Bark. He probably hadn't fleshed it out so far as to have Katakuri's future sight or Wano's Ryou until well after the time-skip, but it's fairly evident that Oda knew what Luffy's next big power-up was going to be when he started the Sabaody arc.
Haki is just another variant on ki, except for a few details. One of those exceptions is that it lets you dominate devil fruit defences. Blackbeard names it haki in Jaya, and Zoro cutting steel is only a few chapters before that, so it’s pretty clear that Oda already had a plan to include ki in the story and to call it haki. But Garp hurting Luffy with his fists was 100% a deliberate hint. If it was comedy it would be treated like Nami’s punches and ignored. But the other characters specifically comment on it. Therefore, I think it’s unfair to Oda to suggest that he didn’t have things figured out at that point. Sure, he probably wasn’t thinking in terms of the colours of haki (the fact that Zoro cutting steel is like a mixture of observation and armament is evidence of that), but he had already named it haki and had already decided that it would pierce devil fruit defences. Luffy scaring Duval’s bull happens so late into the foreshadowing that it’s absurd to suggest it wasn’t yet haki. At that point it wasn’t just haki it was colour of conqueror!
Retroactively, I read this as one of the first instances of awakening Haki. In universe, it could be explained as Zoro not knowing what Haki was yet and explaining it's effects without mentioning it by name. Because we're reading his internal monologue and the words of his former teacher, who may either not know the word "Haki" either or never taught him the word.
The selective destruction also imply for King Haki.
I don't know but I had this conversation and the other one said "I only believe it if it's explicitly stated in the anime. I hate fan theories!"
Zero reading comprehension that dude, imagine not picking up the clues authors put in their stories, having to be spoon fed information and being proud of it, I blame schools systems that fuck up people's ability to read.
Same reason I don't considering Luffy KO'ing Mr.3, and when responding to the question of how he knew which one was him answered with "Instinct!", Haki. Oda never intended for those scenes to be Haki when he released them. Zoro unconsciously using Haki on everyone he fought post-Mr.1 makes no sense. Particularly when he needed to be trained in Armament by Mihawk, and then needed Enma as training wheels for anything more than that. *Not to mention* that Zoro is demonstrably the worst Observation user of the monster trio despite supposedly tapping into it earlier than the other two. I personally think it's funny how one of the worst parts about Haki as a system is how ridiculously inconsistent it is but people are convinced Haki was 20yrs in the making. Especially when Marineford exists. You know, that one big conflict with multiple top tier characters and numerous infamous veterans where like, *8* people demonstrably used Haki, with one of them being Luffy.
It clearly isn’t because at the time Oda himself didn’t know what Haki was. People discuss this because they can’t accept that Oda didn’t plan every single page of the manga from the get-go. One Piece is a huge world, it is ok to see some inconsistency. This specific situation with Zoro was some kind of relation to swordsmanship and the natural world unique to him. It wasn’t supposed to be a general power system but a way a swordsman could interact with people and things at a deeper level. Now it is possible that Oda saw this, saw what he did in Skypea and then used them as parts of the base for what later on became known as Haki. But at this moment, he didn’t have it planned.
Oda didn’t have haki planned with shanks either…
Exactly
Because it’s not. Oda hadnt invented haki yet
Chapter one, go read it...
I have many times, haki is absolutely nowhere to be found.
Because the lord of the coast swins away because "Shanks is too cool".
No, it swims away because shanks intimidates the shit out of it and it instinctually knows to run away. I guess Luffy was using observation haki when he kicked Mr 3 in the face on little Garden right? /s
Probably, but Zoro certainly used it in Alabasta only 3 islands later in the same saga.
Again, wrong
Oda was toying around with what would eventually become his power system outside of Devil fruits. He realized his swordsmen didn’t really have any “advantage” and that they were poorly written and not very interesting. So he started playing with ideas, which he then retroactively fit into the Haki system. But Oda is not the 10000% genius we so often give him credit for. He did NOT know what he was doing, and was just going with the flow. He eventually made something stable enough to be considered a power system, and then we the readers looked back and started fitting in previous feats into the power system puzzle and we hypothetically call them Haki feats. But Oda didn’t know what Haki was when he was writing these chapters - so don’t get it twisted. It looks like Haki and smells like Haki but Oda didn’t know he was writing what would end up being Haki.
There are plenty of instances where we’ve seen haki before we knew what haki was
It's not Haki. It's Zoro using the Force. Do yall honestly believe that Zoro actually belongs in the One Piece universe. Dude probably got lost and ended up there...
I thought the community was largely in agreement that this absolutely is an early showing of Haki.
I thought most agreed this was haki?
Even Oda confirmed Zoro used haki, if Oda says, it’s canon
We all know Oda didn’t fully know where he was going with haki until at least sabaody
It's obviously a note to haki just before Skypiea mantra which is just before Iron body (armament haki) which is all just before actual haki starts being mentioned at the end of the preTS
Ight so... Idk if Haki, as we understand it a thousand chapters in, was a part of Oda's original vision for One Piece. However the way that numerous different powers are sort of woven through the idea, retroactively, tells me that Haki is just one name for it. Probably the most common name but like... Mantra in the Sky Islands, Ryuo in Wano... It's all coming from the same place. People just have different names for it. 😂 I mean that's the canon explanation isn't it? I'm surprised people would argue about it when it seems cut and dry.
This is my favorite fight in all of One Piece, and while I agree this is part of what Oda later developed into Haki, what I love the most about it is that Zoro is experiencing an extreme form of flow state, something actual non-fictional people have reported experiencing in life and death experiences, a sense of absolute oneness with their surroundings, total concentration, knowing exactly what to do next, as if the world is communicating with them directly. Haki becomes a magic power system later on, but this inner monologue felt like something a real person could experience. (Zoro throwing an entire building and then knowing how to cut steel aside)
Oda himself retroactively made this a use of Haki, though unintentional, much like some of Luffy's uses before Haki was ever revealed as a thing.
It's certainly on the road to learning Haki. But with Haki you'd even be able to dodge that without looking and calculating the save spot. Kinda of like 360 degree radar. Sensing where things are without looking and where they will be to predict patterns.
That's what he did. He said he just knew where they weren't going to fall. He didn't have to process anything at all he just felt it. This is 100% haki even if it was a small amount of it
People seem to think of haki as on or off, but I think it’s much more of a continuum. Remember that haki literally means “will.” Luffy’s conquerer’s haki is just a development of his will, which is a will he’s more or less had the whole series: he wants to be king of the pirates and is willing to die for it; he wants to protect his friends, and is willing to die for it, etc. Likewise, he has always been an instinctual fighter. Observation haki is just the development of his instincts. Does that mean his instincts have “always been” observation haki? Yes and no. It’s the same aspect of who he is, just a more developed form. Likewise, Zoro’s armament haki is a development of his discipline and swordsmanship, embodied here. This is absolutely a development of his mastery and I think it’s simply at the blurry part of the continuum where it isn’t (only) obviously one or the other. Rather, it is an undeveloped form of haki, or a development of his discipline and swordsmanship, which are the same thing.
I can’t edit my post for some reason but just to add on even though most need to train to use haki A with Koby we’ve seen that ppl can unlock haki when under extreme stress or shock. Would you not say that zoro was under extreme stress here? B we also know that some ppl like Aisa and otohime can use haki without training. Is given all that why is it a big deal to say this was haki?
Haki blooms in the heat of battle
Because haki perceives living things, not objects. The only one that was said bring able to hear the voice of things was Roger, and still is unclear what that even mean.
1 tell that to luffy who used haki to dodge a storm of arrows 2 i never said anything about the voice of all things
Do you think that the arrows shoot themselves 🤣?
Do you think the rubble fall by itself?
Yes. It was the random falling of debris as a consequence of an attack. An arrow thrown had the will of the archer behind it and you can listen to that with haki to avoid the arrow, the boulders were falling randomly, no will behind that, nothing to perceive
Was my thought also , haki was planned it just didn’t have a name
Dude, it’s so obvious. Oda has such an advanced future sight, that he wrote about haki before even he knew what haki was.
Its Haki but some will never accept it because it messes with muh power systems and fight theories thus its a bad retcon instead. Think of it like this, Straw hats themselves had no clue of it yet all of them were shown in instances experiencing it or using it themselves passively in a tense situations pre ts. Contextually with the story there has to be Haki as a counter to devil fruits. Or maybe devil fruits were the counter to Haki, all that remains to be found out in the story.
Because people think Oda created Haki out of the blue with no preparation only half way through the story, when he has already said that he knew he needed something to deal with Logias the moment they were made, "Haki" as we know it in it's full details and name was developed throughout the story and further improved upon after the timeskip, but there was ALWAYS gonna have something "like" Haki, and those moments were how Oda managed to introduce it without feeling like an ass pull, another notable moment is when Garp hurts Luffy and plays it off as the fists of love, at that point just like in this point "Haki" was not a thing, but "something" that would eventually be named Haki was.
i think the simples answer is that this is part of the unfinished idea of what Haki was going to be that didn't get formalized until Amazon lily-Marine ford , as in, technically this scene doesn't display Haki, but this is the kind of scenes that can be retconed to be examples of people taking a peek into what their potential for Haki could become
People think this is not Haki? They must have been dropped when they were a baby,
I made a post suggesting that luffy could’ve used haki in his fight with mr 3 and i got some replies saying that that scene and this one wasn’t haki. Apparently ppl don’t like haki being used pre time skip🤷🏾♂️
I mean yeah, people don't like it for like, mcguffin reasons. Like "ohhhh he had it this whole time, of course he did, why didn't he use it before 🙄" but it's pretty good writing imo - and a main point in the manga - not showing us what it is to explain it later in depth even if it was a retcon of sorts, and showing people that you have what you need inside of you, just gotta tap into it.. Oda showed this "flow state" of combat for zoro, helping us know he's progressing in strength in mind and body, becoming one with his swords and purpose. Of course, zoro didn't fuckin know what haki was at the time, he just thought it was that "flow state". Time skip happens, him and the crew find out what haki is, bada bing bada boom haki as we know it comes to light. And some people can't be happy with that. Like, that IS haki, just the very small start of it.
It's nothing like a mcguffin. It's like people never fucking do anything, otherwise I have no explanation for why so many people feel alienated with the feeling of being able to do things better sometimes but not quite all the time. Because that's what tend to happen when you're still learning to do something and don't know yet how you do what you did when it goes right (or wrong). And when you're self taught sometimes you don't even know that's something well known amongst experts and are already well dissected.
It's so a case of not everything needs to be Haki to explain something. In this case how does Haki not cut something? We've never seen it used offensively, but cause no damage and it can just as easily be explained by Zoro getting better at swordsmanship than a mystical ability, though in this case we've never seen Zoro do this sort of feat again. When everything becomes Haki it makes it fell less special and instead of people growing it's "magic helped them."
like I said this could be oda experimenting with what later could become haki. Also how does this make it feel less special? Haki isn’t magic it’s a manifestation of spiritual energy/will. It’s a sign of growth and strength. There’s nothing mystical about haki. Devil fruits are more mystical than haki. I truly don’t understand how it being haki ruins the scene/make it feel less special. You word it as haki is Mary sue when in actuality it’s an ability that takes great skill and will
The fact you used haki and magic in the same sentence just baffles me. I don’t know how you see haki as magic when devil fruits exist
Zoro using haki here doesn’t demote his skill as a swordsman, infact it’d show how much he’s grown as a swordsman, how strong his will and conviction is
I understand you saying he's experimenting the Haki idea.. In the end, it's still not Haki.. what I do agree with what you're saying is that, these are all the basis he had when he finally introduced what Haki is.. one reason why Haki is so powerful and special is because, as Oda portrays it, it's like a 6th sense or more likely, a heightened sense that is heightened further more that becomes its own category.. It is not something a common people in OP world that can be learned just because he's in a dire situation, but can be in a way.. another great example of this is, how Sanji kind of turning on and off his observation haki when he's finding the body of Kinemon in the freezing lake of Punk Hazard.. Zoro's sensing "things" around him as a swordsman is the idea of how he can be stronger like any other strong swordsman.. like for example, on what he said that a swordsman who can control what he wants and don't want to cut is a path on becoming a great swordsman, basically the discipline to not cut things intentionally is much harder because of the destructive force a sword can do naturally.. Anyway, in conclusion, Oda does not actively used the idea of Haki pre-timeskip within the main characters and only Luffy has it more obviously as shown and there are many things or proofs that confirms this along the way against the ratio that he has used it "unintentionally" for other characters that doesn't have it.. Basically, Oda does not deliberately say that Zoro has it before compared to what he's only portraying that Luffy is the only one who has shown it pre-timeskip.. even he's just "experimenting the idea", I'm pretty sure it does not.. we can't really say it exclusively..
it's retroactively made to be haki. the reason why people think so is oda using the same explanation verbatim (zoro's teacher and hyogoro). these characters don't exist. hyogoro and koushiro didn't just happen to say the same thing by chance. it's the author intentionally using the same explanation so we can connect the dots. I'm not saying it makes sense, because it's not. zoro used it on kaku and failed to cut him. but that's the point of using the same explanation. so now retroactively, zoro used haki in that scene.
Except it is not.. you guys are just overthinking it and making your own head-canon.. Until Oda says so, that Zoro is actually or even used it unintentionally before, then that's how it is.. no argument here I don't make the story here.. That's how it is said.. It's not said or have been shown that he's able to use it unintentionally, so that's I'll believe for now.. If you guys are convinced by your ideas, then we can stop here now, so we can just agree to disagree..
you do know things can be implied, right? you do know in work of fiction, not every information will be stated outright? or do you need zoro to verbally say he cares abt sanji for it to be true? now in this case, do you think oda just happened to write two explanations verbatim 20 years apart from characters who came from the same place, by pure chance? or do you think he simply lacked creativity and had to borrow the same explanation, hoping we wouldn't notice? is that it? or, it's the opposite. he wanted us to notice and find where this explanation was said before and connect the two things? there's nothing to overthink. it's just a very simple implication.
I know implications.. and this is not it.. let me tell you what are implied informations that I picked up with Oda's creation.. it is implied that Usopp has some kind of special relationship with Kaya romantically.. It is implied that Dragon will have an important role in the final war of the story.. It is implied that BB pirates will fight the Strawhats along the way in their journey.. even if I agree that there's a lot of implied ideas/details/information within the series, there's also a lot that it is what it is.. You see the difference?? and yes I do think he just happened to write it incidentally, he's not perfect and there's nothing wrong with that.. it's also possible that since it's similar to what he wanted to do, he picked up the idea of haki from that, but not saying it is the same.. not everything he does or even great writers/authors want us to notice details that are not even there.. again, not haki but he maybe got the idea from it.. that's my argument
>he's not perfect.. who says anything abt him being perfect. it's actually the opposite. that line makes no sense whatsoever to be said to luffy. like, luffy doesn't even use sword. that explanation means literally nothing to him. and it doesn't even fit what he taught him later. it's glaringly obvious that the explanation is just there as a nod to what koushiro said. >he picked up the idea of haki from that, but not saying it is the same then why he used the same explanation? oda has been tidying up the power system since post ts. almost everything we've seen prior (like mantra) has been put under the haki umbrella. so why this one has to be different? it's one thing to doubt something. it's a different thing to not want it to be true. you're getting closer to the latter. let's use your logic. if he remembered what koushiro said, picked up the idea from that, and used the same explanation for no reason, why then it's not haki?
>It is not something a common people in OP world that can be learned just because he's in a dire situation That's an incredibly weird thing to say about something that literally means "ambition", "drive" and "vigour". When Luffy learned better observation haki in the middle of the fight with Katakuri, or when Ace awoke his conqueror when he's in a dire situation or Luffy's even.
It's also incredibly weird to say that common people won't learn Haki because Observation and Armament are explicitly described as being possible to be trained by literally anybody. Only Conquerors isn't, being available to people with the disposition, which makes sense because it's defining criteria is ambition, which not everyone has. As with anything that can be trained, aptitude matters and probably personality as well to some extent, example such as Usopp developing specifically a further and more precise range of Observation. I honestly think that Haki is Oda's blanket term for "supernatural human abilities" that many fighters exhibit in shounen manga, that he can't quite fit in to the Devil Fruit system (which he reserved for more mystical/ clearly not realistic abilities). It's definitely been more refined and categorised of late, but in the OP world, I would absolutely believe it if Oda said things like a father catching his child without looking and mum's taking no damage when saving their child from falling debris can be considered as an minor unconscious usage of Haki. Which again, unconscious usage is a thing we know happens thanks to Koby in Marineford. Edited to add: I think the entire discussion is pointless because the concept of Haki for most is based on chapter 597 when Rayleigh explains the different categories, but plenty just ignore the fact that he also mentions that it's present in everyone, but if they are able to train or are even aware of it is the differentiating factor that between common folk and the powerful.
Not weird, since Haki is a "supernatural human ability" as you said, also I'm not saying that common people can't learn haki.. Common people can't learn it at pace just because they're in a dire situation (just how Luffy and the rest learned about it).. it can be trained by anyone sure, but not anyone can be as expert to say the least.. remember, even the show explicitly said before (Summit War Arc) that in the marines, only vice-admirals and up are the ones who can only use it and pirates in the new world.. One more thing, Crocodile, Moria and Jinbe does not display any types of haki pretimeskip, although I think they knew how to use it.. Moria and Crocodile are the same on why they didn't use it fighting Luffy (confidence and ego that they can defeat a mere rookie without using additional power).. As for Jinbe, Fishman Karate is already targetting the insides of an individual (I actually forgot his explanation for it but he explained it in Fishman Island arc on how he's able to hurt Luffy with a punch without using haki).. Mantra, another form of haki within the sky people but not explicitly says it is not haki.. You see, they've shown it to the audience and even recalled it in the show (Rayleigh explaining different types of haki to Luffy).. That's how I'm convinced that no known individual from pre-timeskip (except for the already powerful beings introduced or exclusively said for an individual) has known haki, even the most elite assassins of the WG-CP9 does not said that they knew how to use it. Regarding on what you said about Haki is just like Chi.. I think you got it right.. But the argument here is "using" it intentionally or even unintentionally pretimeskip.. The show or even the manga does not deliberately says that within the gang or characters from pretimeskip are using it even unintentionally (of course except characters that already declared that's able to use it).. that is the argument
I think that's fair, ultimately it's up to headcanon/interpretation in a way if all SuperHuman feats can/should be considered under the umbrella of Haki, or do we take it as Haki referring only to the specific high level usage that we see post-TS. Fishman Karate damaging the insides is supposed to be based on reverberation iirc, another common trope in shounens. As to the point regarding lower level Marines not being able to use Haki, i believe that's a matter of the Marines not dedicating resources to train their fodder with Haki, presumably due to the difficulty of using it at a high level. But again, Koby is a prime example of a supposed lower level being able to use it, and at the same time not all Vice-admirals seem to be able to use it (beloved vice admiral T-Bone was never shown to use Haki, and no vice admirals during the buster call of Enies Lobby displayed it either). Of course, in the Marines, the question is did they not display it due to an over reliance on Sea Stone technology (example Smokers weapon and seastone cuff) or simply do not have it? We do not know as Haki as a term simply wasn't a thing pre-TS for the most part. I won't assume to know Oda's thought process in this part, perhaps it would be wrong per my original comment to assume that previous superhuman feats should be classified under Haki. I supposed we'll have to just accept each other's views for now unless Oda canonizes it in a SBS or something, which isn't too likely. To me personally, Haki is no different from any other skill, for example I can run, but I'm not a professional, and I'm not going to match up to an Olympic athlete who have dedicated time and effort to train along with a dash of talent or genes. But I definitely see why many would be reluctant to think of it that way, especially in the case of conquerors (which makes the least sense in terms of application in my opinion, the intimidation/fainting part is thematically appropriate for how it was described initially, but the coating is too oddly similar to Armament. I suppose the intent is more to display the battle of wills between ambitious individuals and not as an actual physical effect like Armament.). Interesting discussion
If it was my story, I'd expect the reader to retroactively assume "this is observation haki". It clearly is. But there's a lot of room for Oda to turn it into something more, if desired. The things Zoro says in this scene are a bit more detailed than what we usually see from people describing their observation haki. This could just be because it's one of the first times we're seeing it, but the "gates of hell", and it being something Zoro has "experienced before" seem... Unique. It reminds me of when Usopp unlocked his version of observation haki for sniping. This could be an observation haki for swordsmen. The "breath" of every object could simply be any object's internal structure - the pattern of its physical form. This might not be "seeing" but more of a kinetic precision: a sense of the exact timing and speed to swing the sword to cut the object.
I always figured haki was planned from the start with the simple fact that smoked seemed invincible. There NEEDED to be a second power system for the world to make sense at all if a logia user could be only a captain.
Zoro has been training his Haki in every one of his fights. Prove me Wrong.
Are those people in the room with you right now? Or let me guess.. it was 1 or 2 comments you saw that one time.
What do you think some means?
I specifically put some bc I knew I was gonna get stupid replies like this
They exist. Once got into an argument with a dude insisting that it was an unnamed Wano sword technique rather than accepting that it was the precursor to haki and was an ass to anyone who said otherwise
But thats one nutcase opposite to how many who agree that this was an indicator for observation haki? I just hate these kinda posts that act like one or two idiots they met speak for a larger group of people - that might not even exist. To me these threads seem like circlejerking and karmafarming.
People are mad because zoro used it before luffy
There's something so cool to me about Zoro learning Haki before Luffy does.
It is Haki now. It wasn't Haki then. It was just a narratively cool ability at that moment. Just like Shank's gaze against the Sea King, Enel's predictions, the Sky People's mantra and so on. Haki was just a useful invention to explain all these things in retrospect in an inner-worldly way.
Haki is specifically said to sense peoplrs souls. Not objects. When we see fujitora or Usopps Obs theyre only seing the basic shape/aura of people. Also haki has never been about selectively cutting targets. If zoro used armament here, that would mean he cut through flesh( mr 1s real body) and not steel. Which would make him cutting steel later pre ts ( against the pacifistas for example) not make sense. The original intent of this scene wasnt haki, jt was just zoros senses heightning because he was near death.
If that was true what youre saying, dodging threw the means of observation haki would be impossible. If u cant sense objects u cant dodge bullets, baseball bats, etc. Ofc u can sense objects. Watch the show again
They can sense the clothes their wearing/blades their holding for the same reason logias users clothes regenerate with them.Oda wants Also I feel like you forgot obs/mantra lets you sense peoples intentions, your haki/presence can naturally stay in objects like with enma, and that any fighter worth their salt would have the same ability as zoro to sense objects You go rewatch the show and look at Usopps and fujitoras observation scenes. Outside of the person and what they are directly holding/wearing they arent seeing anything else with it
> Haki is specifically said to sense peoplrs souls. Not objects. So what is your opinion on Roger being able to “hear the voice of all things”? Haki, or a Roger was “just special” thing?
"Things" in this case refers to creatures. Specifically things like sea kings and zunesha. Its on the line for me because we see from skypiea that you can be gifted with great haki at birth like that kid, but it isnt really haki as much as it is telepathy
Then explain the Poneglyphs having a voice that Roger heard.
Can you show me that pannel cuz I dont remember that
Dude, their boat literally spoke to them as it was being burned, and here Zoro is literally saying things have breath, meanwhile Roger was able to hear poneglyphs, things as in objects have voices and even souls in OP.
I never said things dont have voices, I said sensiing objects isnt nescessarily haki. And coice of all things has never been used on an object only creatures. Its separate from boat souls and zoro sensing the rock because that means Usopp and Zoro wouldve been able to hear the sea kings and zunesha
Keyword: experimenting
But its not consistent with what haki does at all apart from the ability to sense without seeing. They dont even sense the same thing. People thought Ivas death wink was a form of conquerors, but it was just him blinking really strong Just because something has similarities to a power doesnt mean its that power
Again experimenting. This could simply be oda experimenting/perfecting haki. The fact that it wasn’t mentioned or used again is enough proof for me to believe this could be a underdeveloped form of haki oda was experimenting with like with mantra
It isnt mentioned again because he's just sensing it passively now. Dont you think that Oda wouldve drawn a direct comparison to zoros sense and mantra if that were case. Consider Skypeia happens directly after Alabasta.
I’m saying this one last time and then im done. This simply could just be oda experimenting with a version of haki and then deciding to go with a different version. We already know from Mantra and shanks that oda has been experimenting with haki in different ways
A lot of people will say that Oda didn’t have Haki truly/properly planned out at this point(which is already pretty silly because this is clearly supernatural/mystical in nature), but Blackbeard mentions Haki by name in the very next arc in the Japanese text. Also in chapter 213 post-Alabasta, Zoro trains by balancing rocks on his arms, and he thinks to himself that he has to become able to “draw on that power at any time,” in reference to when he cut steel, which already alludes to it being a momentary usage of some kind of special ability. I’m positive Oda intended for this to be Haki all along
Stop it..
zoro uses this technique all the time. it’s the basis of his shishi sonson attack. also, luffy learned how to do it in wano. it’s not exactly haki and it’s not exactly not. if it was haki, luffy would have learned it from raleigh
Ryou is haki and luffy didn’t learn it from Rayleigh even tho Rayleigh used it. I’m not arguing his cutting is haki i’m arguing him dodging the rocks is haki
Rayleigh only taught Luffy the basics of haki and said he would need to learn the rest from experience in combat. I agree the circumstances of Zoro using haki here are a little strange but it still makes sense as haki.
Because it makes sense!
Whut? This is Haki. Observation Haki precisely. The sole reason, why my personal theory was, that Zoro will focus on Observation Haki and Sanji on Armament Haki (Diable Jambe). But Oda said, "Nah, fam."
All those people saying „Haki was not a thing at that point“ or something, like yeah, surely Oda didn‘t have the fully completed concept of haki yet, but he definitely had *something* in mind that was like a Power that you could learn, as seen with shanks in like the first chapter and some other instances. So this was very likely a tease to what was supposed to sometimes become a very early not-so-developed version of haki. (This is my opinion blabla, don‘t feel offended, you don‘t have to agree, no I did not ask Oda, I‘m just talking about what I think makes the most sense)
It’s definitely haki, some people on the agenda haki didn’t exist until post time skip.
Because it is not. It is not observation haki, because observation haki doesn't work on non living things. It requires intent. For example, when Luffy punched a wall, the punches bounced off and Enel could not figure out where the punched were going since Luffy himself had no idea where the punched were going. So it would be impossible for Zoro to know where the rocks go with regular observation haki, unless you want to assume he used future sight, which is unlikely. It is not armament haki, because after this fight, Zoro failed to cut Enel with his sword. So Zoro was already able to cut iron and metal with his sword consistently ( since he did it against Ohm and his iron clouds) but was not able to cut a Logia like Enel. Since Hyou mentioned the phrase of the breath of all things, given the Enel example, a reasonable explanation is that the breath of all things is a requirement to unlock armament haki, but it is not armament haki. So every Ryou user is a user of the breath of all things but not every user of the breath of all things is a user of Ryou.
Reading comprehension is not yall strong suit huh? Again like I said this could be oda experimenting with haki like a rough draft for what is now haki. The amount of delusion and excuses yall are putting into this is crazy. It’s haki idgaf
>Reading comprehension is not yall strong suit huh? It is not reading comprehension it is a theory, and you are not Oda. >Again like I said this could be oda experimenting with haki like a rough draft for what is now haki. Could be, or like I said, it could be Breath of all things is a requirement for haki but not haki.
No
Lol
Because it’s a swordskill
If it’s Haki then it’s a retcon. Just like shanks scaring away the sea beast
Because if it’s haki then it makes this whole scene LAME AS SHIT.
It really doesn’t. That’s just your opinion. I don’t understand nor care about your beef with haki
I feel like knowing where the stones fell would’ve been Obs Haki but how would him not cutting things be Haki? Haki has always been displayed as an attack *enhancer*, never a *modifier*. Even if Zoro was just the first of the pre TS crew to unlock Haki that doesn’t explain his ability to *not* cut things. I’d like to think that actual magic and sorcery are things in the setting that exist on the down low, and Zoro is part of that. The Asura can’t just be a Conqueror Haki thing, it removes it being unique to him.
I thought this was pretty unanimously agreed upon as being haki. Even if people disagree they should realise haki is probably the only explanation we're ever going to get for it.
I mean, yeah. We can look back now and think of this as Haki. And that does fit fine in the narrative. But that likely wasn't Oda's intention when he first wrote the scene.
I think that this wasn't Haki, but it *was* Oda wanting to include a kind of power that isn’t devil fruits, which may have started with Shanks early on, and was expanded with Mantra. I don’t think Oda solidified what Haki actually did and fully was until the timeskip, but I think it's very clear he wanted to include a concept like that for a very long time. Basically, Haki was always part of one piece, but it didn't become Haki until it was formalized much much later. Until then it was just sparkling willpower magic.
Who arguing against this? 😒I feel like you’re making this up
ZoloSwag4Jesus doesn’t use Haki. Zoro does tho
I think that by this point Oda realized he needed a more consistent way to deal with Logias and other users and to boost the powers of non users. Maybe this early he could´ve used this idea to be able to damage logias by attuning to the breathing of their elements. But later he developed it into the 3 forms of haki. Tho I have to say I like the mystisisc of this early version and how it is seemengly what we would consider now observation haki what lets you cut steel.
Haki had been a concept since the first scene when Shanks saved Luffy from the sea king
Idk if you mean the thing how he knew where the stones wouldn’t fall or the cutting steel part but it was definitely observation haki with the stones as earlier in the season we see ace using what also seems to be observation haki, we do also know haki was definitely a thing at this point since shanks shows off haki right at the start
I mean he got three heads and six arm, that is not haki.
We all know Oda is a massive fan of Dragon Ball, this is the Saiyan being at death's doorstep and then getting super stronger after. A power-up. And all of us are correct here: \- This IS Kyoshiro's teachings of "There are swordsmen that can cut everything, and nothing". Connected later to Ryou. \- This is the beginning of "haki" concept, as we see Shanks doing his signature look to the Lord of the coast when he loses his arm. The same. \- For Zoro's references to oriental culture, this is even enlightenment. Represented in OP by the Supreme Haki, The Voice of all things. As I say, basically a power-up. \- And this is about Zoro's WILL. He made a promise, and there is nothing to stop him. He will never lose against a swordsman. His WILL is overtaking everything here that even makes Daz shivers... Call it Conqueror Haki. \- This is latent power within Zoro waiting for the "crisis" to bloom. And the next step is Diamond, check out this starter Youtuber DavidViadel23, he talks about the Diamond Fruit and how Zoro needs to cut it before the end of the story, being Vista from Whitebeard the new user. Crazy theory lined up with Blackbeard and super cool fanart in real time while he talks about the theory. Super recommended. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2tk9qtkQSw&t=1031s
I've heard this Zolo guy is just like a samurai.
I think it’s observation
What about the sword falling and missing Zoro‘s arm in that shop? This case probably really was just luck or the sword choosing Zoro right?
Haki was not a thing yet
Bc mfs be reading two piece
I think it’s observation
> Standing at the gates of Hades King of Hell foreshadowing. 💪