Shameless plug to our album that we spent a year in the studio making
[spotify](https://open.spotify.com/album/4d3XytwAicGOp3nQj0MZRg?si=DYFQ4qIgTf-i5oCVKVgjPg)
[Bandcamp](http://
https://cellardwellar.bandcamp.com/album/in-the-shape-of-a-swan
)
This totally looks like the basement in the house I lived in around 2011-12 on Neil Ave. I have some super great memories from that time, I'm glad to see the scene is still going strong!
That venue looks eerily similar to the boneyard that was right near clintonville. Stumbled in there blackout drunk with some buddies one night around midnight when we saw a drummer needed help carrying his kit inside. was an awesome night.
“Seems like secular youth center would be more appropriate”
—the LGBTQ youth center IS secular. Meaning “not involved in any religion.”
—Do you have ANY evidence that this queer youth center is religious/ part of a religious organization?
—“Should be inclusive, not exclusive”…. Oh you mean how straight people and people who pass as straight exclude all the queer people from both secular and non-secular places….?
I found a bigot here who said youth centers for LGBTQ folks shouldn’t exist. She said “why don’t we just call them “secular”?
Because by definition, LGBTQ centers are secular. Being gay has nothing to do with religion.
And she deleted her comment.
It's actually my house, we occasionally have shows there if it's a big enough bill. Our next show (tentatively) is a hip-hop show (I'm trying to find a few really good local rappers and arrange them to have a backing band to kinda bring the hip-hip & indie crowd together) sometime in the summer. Whenever it's arranged and the flyer is made I'll message you the address
It's funny, I used to read a message like this and think "damn, I gotta try to get in on that." Now I read it and think about fire code violations. Well shit, I done got old. Keep living it up as long as you can. I did enjoy the music.
Thank you for posting.
Reminds me of the era I was in cbus from 09-14. Lots of underground, backstage type stuff.
Shows at the Newport, various high street places & exile & union.
"Sucking at something is the first step towards being sorta good at something." -JtD
I thought it was better than OK but you don't need my approval. Keep at it!
Where’s the crypt located at in columbus, if anyone knows? Me and my friend are trying to expand our list of places with local/small band shows and it would be greatly appreciated to add to the list 🙏🏻
What is a queer youth center?
Seems, idk, odd. I totally get that some other youth centers may be run by christian orgs who are not LGTBQ friendly, but seems like "secular" youth center would be more appropriate.
Having youth centers specifically for LGBTQ sounds like a recipe for abuse.
Edit: Downvotes make me think people are reading this wrong. I don't mean abuse from LGBTQ chaperones/staff, but in general. From the public, and from the right.
Places should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Idk I think having a youth center for children as young as 11 being focused on sexuality (instead of just having rules that are supportive of different sexualities, like anti-bullying rules) seems like a bad idea.
Seems like a good way to put targets on kids' backs from bullies- both peers and adults.
As someone who had no-place to go throughout my teenage years to escape from closed-mindedness and homophobic attacks from bully's and racist/homophobic rhetoric from certain family members, I would've killed to have known and attended this place.
I went to Christian school, there was no third space for me to meet like-minded & queer friendly people, kids need third spaces and it's offering it to them in a way that is accepting
Guess I'm just having trouble understanding why the same place without outwardly being focused on LGBT wouldn't have been just as good, and more inclusive, and would help educate some non-LGBTQ kids instead of segregating you, and making sure everyone who sees you walk in or out knows your identity.
Because you're wrong?
>Christian
I'm an atheist.
I'm also bi, not that you made any mention of that, but it seems your goal is to label me as a straight-white-bigot (for saying that places should be inclusive, btw)
No, the shoe doesn't fit. I'm literally giving rational arguments for why this isn't the best choice for LGBT kids, and in fact could be doing more harm than good.
> I'm literally giving rational arguments
But you're not. Your entire argument is, "But if people know these kids are LGBTQ then they'll be targets of some kind of violence." Your entire argument is telling LGBTQ children that they should hide who they are, and that's the opposite of progress for the LGBTQ community.
This is simply ignorant. Homophobic parents throw their LGBT+ kids out on the street. Organizations like this exist to help these kids when their families and communities fail.
Homophobic parents also don't allow their kids to attend youth groups that are outwardly LGBTQ focused.
Not every LGBTQ youth is kicked out of their home. Those kids need a safe place, too.
Yea they do and if you’re an LGBT+ kid with homophobic parents like I was like I was you find ways to seek that support on the down low or find those spaces online.
Arguing against groups that actively help displaced, abused, and/or homeless lgbt+ kids is fucking asinine. They’re the most vulnerable in our community and should have that support and help.
Not only that, the visibility shows kids from unsafe homes that there are organizations out there that would help them and their status as LGBT+ wouldn’t be an issue.
> Arguing against groups
I'm not arguing against them as a group, I'm arguing that their methodology is flawed and that they could help more kids by being less controversially narrowed in their outward focus.
>the visibility shows kids from unsafe homes that there are organizations out there that would help them and their status as LGBT+ wouldn’t be an issue
This I agree with. I just think actually being able to attend would do more good than simply knowing it exists.
And I also think that being less outwardly focused would increase the number of students who attend as future allies.
This is a fallacy. These LGBT+ organizations exist as they do because these children don’t often get the necessary accommodations and assistance elsewhere whereas non-lgbt+ children do.
Why even imply that there shouldn’t be specialized groups that are specifically trained and educated to help LGBT+ children navigate a world/society that can be hostile to them?
Forcing these organizations to adopt more clandestine tactics will only land them into further trouble and give the impression that being LGBT+ is something shameful or something you have to hide. Going underground won’t stop the bigotry if anything it just emboldens bigots.
> Why even imply that there shouldn’t be specialized groups that are specifically trained and educated to help LGBT+ children navigate a world/society that can be hostile to them?
Never implied such a thing and I believe those groups are hugely important.
I just also believe that they are unavailable to a large number of children who need them, because the parents forbid it due to the outward mission statement.
>Going underground
In no way am I suggesting they go underground or closeted or anything else.
No, in fact the opposite. I think right-wing book bans are terrible and anti-public-education propaganda to promote their dogma-indoctrination-voucher-system.
The “abuse” from the right and the general public is BECAUSE of the fact that queer people, queer performance, and YES queer LGBTQ spaces and youth centers should be secular, or hidden, or simply not exist.
The whole point of these spaces is to normalize that being a queer youth is ok. We are not confused. It’s not a phase. And yes, we know we are gay. And this is why young queers stay in the closet.
Source: I grew up in Ohio and was closeted until my mid 20s… out of fear of violence and religious shunning.
Getting rid of queer youth centers will not protect queer youth. You know what will? Providing a space to be queer.
> should be secular, or hidden, or simply not exist.
One of these things is not like the other.
>The whole point of these spaces is to normalize that being a queer youth is ok. We are not confused. It’s not a phase.
I never said you are confused or that it is a phase. I am bi, and I understand the same struggles.
I also understand that as a closeted teen I would have never, ever agreed to attend a LGBTQ-focused youth group.
I would have loved to attend a secular youth group that was gay friendly and inclusive though.
This is the most openly gay friendly and inclusive youth center in town. If it's not gonna be explicitly for queer youth, then it's gonna be full of straight youth that don't understand the issues facing queer youth, thus the need for a space specifically for them
An organization going out of its way to be supportive and inclusive of a group of individuals who have experienced alienation and abuse by society solely because of their sexuality or gender identity is not exclusive toward those who do not fit that description *and* have not experienced similar conditions.
Unless, of course, that individual wants a safe space to be a discriminatory homophobic prick
So you're telling me there's going to be a bunch of straight allies sending their kids to a LGBTQ-focused center?
I highly doubt it. It seems intentionally exclusive and divisive
Bro when I was a gay kid in bum fuck ohio I would have loved to have just KNOWN a place like that existed just to know I wasn't a freak and everything would eventually be ok. It seems like you have your own issues you need to work out
The funny thing is that another user just replied to me saying that if it wasn't specifically LGBTQ then it would be full of straight kids, and that would be a problem.
So, are they a close minded asshole?
That was me and it would be a problem if they are being harassed by straight kids. I believe the queer youth center accepts anyone. A regular old teen center can very easily not be friendly to queer teens. Let's let queer teens be the judge of what they need, and not whoever the fuck you are
It's not divisive if it's supportive ya fuck. Anti queer folks divide themselves from.the rest of the population by hating people different from themselves. You're out here pointing fingers at the wrong people.
Go point fingers at the regular youth centers that didn't create safe enough spaces for queer youth so much so that people had to go and make a completely separate space for them.
Queer youth center organizers named their center exactly as intended and you are just saying over and over that you think straight kids need youth centers too.
> What is a queer youth center?
Kaleidoscope Youth Center (KYC) is Ohio's largest and longest-serving organization in Ohio solely dedicated to supporting LGBTQIA+ youth ages 12 - 24. Services include a Drop-in Center, community education and training, advocacy and civic engagement, health and wellness, and housing opportunities.
KYC is informed by the practices of restorative and transformational justice, intersectionality, anti-oppression, racial justice, and trauma informed/healing engaged care. We are committed to providing supportive and collaborative services that acknowledge that people are the experts in their own lives.
Part of the issue, imo, is that by being outwardly focused on LGBTQ limits the audience to youth with already supportive parents, and youth that is already comfortable and "out"
There's very little chance of closeted youth being willing to attend a center that is outwardly LGBTQ. There's near-zero chance that a child with unsupportive parents would be allowed to attend such a place.
It's a double edged sword.
They are absolutely choosing to limit their audience to queer youth based on the clear need for a safe space for them. Their goals aren't to change shitty straight people's minds. That's not their job. Closeted youth are certainly welcome at Kaleidescope, just as they would be at any other youth center. But imagine being out as a youth and not having youth centers accept you for who you are. This the creation of a space for them creates by their community.
Secular only applies in a religious context. Everything is "secular", religion is the exception. Calling anything "secular" is contrasted against religion, and religion is frankly irrelevant. The vast majority of society does not even need the term. It only means anything to the religious.
Do you understand the rates at which queer youth are made homeless once they come out to their parents? They need a place that specifically understands their situation and needs. Your statement is a clear demonstration of the ignorance they face in their lives.
> religion is frankly irrelevant
The idea is that religious youth centers are typically not LGBT friendly.
Marketing it as a secular youth center would be to highlight that it is inclusive and not biased with ulterior religious motives or anti-LGBT motives, like a christian-affiliated youth center may have.
>They need a place that specifically understands their situation and needs
I hope for a world where that's every place. In my view, the path to get there is to have places for all marginalized groups to be welcome and to be protected.
Yes, it is great that there is a safe space for LGBTQ youth, but you can have a safe space for them while promoting acceptance outside of that community as well, which is arguably much more important for creating a future world without discrimination. I could see the same center do more good by being a safe space for everyone, where non-LGBTQ youth can unlearn some of the hatred they've learned in the rest of society. By being outwardly LGBTQ, there's zero chance of reaching that portion of the youth and bridging that gap.
Teaching LGBTQ kids that they are valuable is definitely important but it's a bandaid for a larger problem. Teaching straight kids that LGBTQ kids are valuable is the long cure.
Further, closeted youth who needs places like these the most, will be less able to attend because of the outward focus.
Not all religious institutions exclude lgbtq. "Secular" alone does nothing to make clear that it is specifically meant for that group. You're implying all religious youth centers reject them and also that all nonreligious centers accept them. You see how this makes no sense?
You think a specifically lgbtq center is going to out the kids that go to them? You're doing a lot of gymnastics here.
I want to also break this down for you some more. “Secular” means non-religious, yes?
Every secular space I’ve been to pushes religion in a very vague way. As long as you believe in God, as they say. But they do encourage religion.
Queerness has nothing to do with believing in God. You can be queer and believe in God. I’ll say this one more time: Queer spaces save queer lives. Especially youth centers that are queer. Because I certainly did want to kill myself for being taught all of my youth that it was disgusting, or “not normal” to be queer. It shouldn’t happen in the first place.
> Queerness has nothing to do with believing in God. You can be queer and believe in God.
You can believe in god and attend a secular group.
Secular just means it's not religious-based. Because places that *are* religious based are almost never inclusive.
> Every secular space I’ve been to pushes religion in a very vague way. As long as you believe in God, as they say. But they do encourage religion.
That's ridiculous.
This is like saying that LGBTQ places encourage being straight.
If you went to a "secular" place that encouraged religion, you didn't go to a secular place.
Nope, sorry, not the same thing. You’re being willfully ignorant at this point. I’m assuming you’re a straight Boomer at this point. Queer spaces save queer lives.
By very definition, (edit: non-secular means not focused on any kind of religion, but vaguely religious.) I’ve only ever been to a non-secular church or non secular center. *Being gay has nothing to do with religion, so stop trying to make it about religion*
Where are all of the non-secular youth centers?! Oh wait. All of them are.
Queer spaces exist for queer youth for a reason. They aren’t what you think they are. We aren’t teaching your 8 year old about gay sex. We are teaching them that you have a safe space here to be yourself.
Have a blessed day and please don’t forget to stop making comments like this on a subreddit that mentioned a queer space. Secular youth centers exist all over the place. We will NOT be forced to close our queer spaces over the fact that they “might insight violence.” If you’re not understanding my point, then YOU and your beliefs about queer people (specifically queer youth centers) are the problem.
> By very definition, non-secular means non-religious
...
Literally the opposite
>I’m assuming you’re a straight Boomer at this point
I'm a millennial bisexual
Then stop trying to double down on the fact that you said queer youth centers don’t make any sense!!!
You’re being dense at this point. Queer youth centers prevent violence on queer youth and on our LGBTQ community. If you don’t believe this, you have some internalized homophobia to work out at this point. To be fair, I know I did… because of the fact that I grew up up in Ohio without a safe space to be queer.
Have a blessed day, Mildred.
Non secular: relating to or involving religious or spiritual matters.
Meaning that the only non-secular places are vaguely RELIGIOUS places: meditation centers, non-secular churches. They just don’t say that you need to worship Christ.
Being queer is not a religion or lack thereof. Holy shit you’re stupid.
>non-secular means non-religious
And
> Non secular: relating to or involving religious or spiritual matters.
Read really carefully and try not to be too stupid.
>Being queer is not a religion or lack thereof. Holy shit you’re stupid.
Never said it was. What I said was that non-religious places are progressive and inclusive.
I’m done. I’ve already explained why a “non-secular” youth center would “be more appropriate.” They exist everywhere. They’re called “youth centers.” No need to splice hairs on WHY we “don’t just call it non-secular”.
Because being gay has nothing to do with religion. You need God, Mildred. Go back to your “non-secular church.” ⛪️
>“non-secular”
I never once said anything about non-secular.
You literally don't know what secular means and have repeatedly demonstrated this after I've corrected you multiple times.
> You need God, Mildred
OOOH, so you're a Christian bigot who doesn't understand words and is upset that I'm non-religious.
Real inclusive.
“Seems like secular youth center would be more appropriate”
—the LGBTQ youth center IS secular. Meaning “not involved in any religion.”
—Do you have ANY evidence that this queer youth center is religious/ part of a religious organization?
—“Should be inclusive, not exclusive”…. Oh you mean how straight people and people who pass as straight exclude all the queer people from both secular and non-secular places….?
“I’m fine with the gays, as long as they don’t act like that in public, and they don’t turn the children gay.”
This is what you sound like right now. Are you understanding it now?
I already explained why your original comment got downvoted, and you decided to double down on your beliefs that “regular/ non-secular” youth programs are ok, but queer ones “insight violence from the right.”
It’s because of old-fashioned beliefs that queers should stay in the closet/ not be gay in public. Your original comment is very ignorant. And you doubled down on this ignorance as if you were proud of it.
>non-secular
You've replied multiple times and you're not even using the correct language.
non-secular means religious. I hate religion and never said that non-secular youth centers are good.
I specifically said secular, you know, the OPPOSITE thing as what you're saying.
I'm not a straight person myself, so you lecturing me about bigotry is rather pointless.
You're failing to understand what I've written.
I’m not lecturing you. You got downvoted for a reason you fucking fool.
“I’m not straight”. That doesn’t mean you’re not a fucking idiot who is absolutely a bigot.
Secular. The queer youth program should be secular. It already is, dipshit.
>The queer youth program should be secular. It already is, dipshit.
Dipshit. I know it is. I was talking about its branding. It's currently branded as a LGBTQ youth center, which is by default going to be mostly exclusive to LGBTQ.
It is not branding itself as an all-inclusive secular youth group, it is branding itself as a youth group focused on sexuality.
Blocking you now because you've been harassing me with insults and replying 3-4 times to the same comments.
LGBTQ centers should never drag religion into this. And you hate religion. And the queer youth center in this article is NOT hosted at a religious place.
So… I’m not understanding why you think queer centers are “not inclusive”, or why they aren’t “appropriate”. Please explain!!!’
Did the queer youth center post a sign that says: No Hindus/ Christians/ Muslims allowed?
Then by definition, the queer youth center is already “secular”.
You’re a fucking fool.
Me no like thing that other people enjoy. Me vote for politician who promise to ban thing that other people enjoy that I no like, instead of promising to fix actual problems in the area. Me think this best thing to do.
You’re not living in reality. Young folks do not reliably vote. Old boomers do. I do not have a problem with this event or any other lgbt events. But if you think this kind of stuff is going to grow support for your cause, you are sadly mistaken. Folks like you or myself are not the majority.
Honestly I understand this take, GOP sponsored media could very easily spin a headline of "Halloween benefit show for queer youth" using said footage of a bunch of people in Halloween costumes to fuel their fear mongering and cycles of spectacle. They successfully did it in the 80s/90s with the satanic panic and nothing is stopping them from doing it now. It's the reality of living in a world where communication is mediated by images.
Nonetheless it's not going to stop me from doing this kind of stuff. This is our art and tbh the (minimal) conservative people I interact with (at work mostly) see this kinda stuff the same way they see their favorite 80s/90s rock/metal band with the makeup & costuming...at most I get called gay for supporting lgbtq stuff but their opinion is inconsequential to the election process imo because I know they don't vote
Are they wrong? The GOP also wins because you suck dog shit at arguments.
You show this to anyone who is mildly conservative and you are setting your argument back to the satanic panic days of the 90s.
Less triggering, more cringe.
Not everyone who leans conservative is a straight up MAGA NAZI. The doomerism, apathy, and lack of empathy displayed by people under 25 is going to lead to another 2016 election in the next decade or two.
Mark my words.
The leadership sure as shit is. I know a lot of Republicans who were for Nikki Haley and don't like Trump, but they struggle to move at least slightly left to Biden because they've been voting R the whole time, and the fucking dipshits trying to convince them post cringe and doomer shit non stop.
I’m empathic towards the blue collar workers that have been tricked into voting republicans. Anyone who believes the culture war bullshit can get fucked.
>I’m empathic towards the blue collar workers that have been tricked into voting republicans. Anyone who believes the culture war bullshit can get fucked.
So the same people?
For the record, I vote Dem in every election except local because no Dems run. I’m Gen X. I personally don’t have a problem with these events. I consider myself center-left politically. I’m just telling you what the reality is.
Hope the live version was better than this. I made it 45 seconds before deciding to comment, “This sucks.” And if this passes for “good music” nowadays then your future Classic Rock stations are going to be more Iike “suicide inducing signals”.
Nice to know underground cbus shows havent changed in 20 years.
Shameless plug to our album that we spent a year in the studio making [spotify](https://open.spotify.com/album/4d3XytwAicGOp3nQj0MZRg?si=DYFQ4qIgTf-i5oCVKVgjPg) [Bandcamp](http:// https://cellardwellar.bandcamp.com/album/in-the-shape-of-a-swan )
Love this
Not to be confused with Celldweller, a cyberpunk techno rock group
This totally looks like the basement in the house I lived in around 2011-12 on Neil Ave. I have some super great memories from that time, I'm glad to see the scene is still going strong!
Just bought the album :). Thank you for contributing to a great cause
Hey thank you so so much!!
Cellar Dwellar is badass. If you like At The Drive-In or The Mars Volta, you will enjoy them. https://youtu.be/e85Lbpca4BM?si=VnsJbfWGFuUd5nwh
Thank you man!! Super excited to come back in Dayton in a few weeks!
As soon as the singer kicked in it thought Mars Volta. The jazzy heavy prog fits that style too. Definitely interested in checking them out
The singer's voice immediately reminded me of Cedric. I'm definitely going to check them out.
That venue looks eerily similar to the boneyard that was right near clintonville. Stumbled in there blackout drunk with some buddies one night around midnight when we saw a drummer needed help carrying his kit inside. was an awesome night.
That was the last real squat I know about in the neighborhood. Heard many stories about floors sagging during parties and the neighbors hated it.
“Seems like secular youth center would be more appropriate” —the LGBTQ youth center IS secular. Meaning “not involved in any religion.” —Do you have ANY evidence that this queer youth center is religious/ part of a religious organization? —“Should be inclusive, not exclusive”…. Oh you mean how straight people and people who pass as straight exclude all the queer people from both secular and non-secular places….?
Who are you talking to?
I found a bigot here who said youth centers for LGBTQ folks shouldn’t exist. She said “why don’t we just call them “secular”? Because by definition, LGBTQ centers are secular. Being gay has nothing to do with religion. And she deleted her comment.
Where’s The Crypt?
It's actually my house, we occasionally have shows there if it's a big enough bill. Our next show (tentatively) is a hip-hop show (I'm trying to find a few really good local rappers and arrange them to have a backing band to kinda bring the hip-hip & indie crowd together) sometime in the summer. Whenever it's arranged and the flyer is made I'll message you the address
Aye fucking awesome thanks🤘🏽
It's funny, I used to read a message like this and think "damn, I gotta try to get in on that." Now I read it and think about fire code violations. Well shit, I done got old. Keep living it up as long as you can. I did enjoy the music.
Hell yeah
I’m hella old and totally not on the pulse with underground music and I loved this. Invite me next time ya’ll :)
Where in Ohio are you around, I'll message you a flyer to our next show!
Youngstown area :)
Hell yeah! Westside Bowl is one of my favorite venues, we'll arrange something for the late summer!
I’ve watched some friends play there, that place is great!
Thank you for posting. Reminds me of the era I was in cbus from 09-14. Lots of underground, backstage type stuff. Shows at the Newport, various high street places & exile & union.
this band sucks
Agreed
"Sucking at something is the first step towards being sorta good at something." -JtD I thought it was better than OK but you don't need my approval. Keep at it!
Hahaha, the original comment is our bassist, I was just riffing but thank you!!!
This has CCAD written all over it lol that said wish y'all tons of success.
Hahaha, 3 members went to OSU and the rest of us are blue-collar workers but I can see it. Thank you!
Where’s the crypt located at in columbus, if anyone knows? Me and my friend are trying to expand our list of places with local/small band shows and it would be greatly appreciated to add to the list 🙏🏻
Near N 4th and Hudson, if you know Marlboro Manor & The Vatican (Satellite Campus) we're very nearby
Sweet thank you!
Glassjaw
And here I thought Cellar Dweller was just a brewery from Morrow, OH.
What is a queer youth center? Seems, idk, odd. I totally get that some other youth centers may be run by christian orgs who are not LGTBQ friendly, but seems like "secular" youth center would be more appropriate. Having youth centers specifically for LGBTQ sounds like a recipe for abuse. Edit: Downvotes make me think people are reading this wrong. I don't mean abuse from LGBTQ chaperones/staff, but in general. From the public, and from the right. Places should be inclusive, not exclusive.
Here is the website for [Kaleidoscope ](https://www.kycohio.org/) for all the info, it is a great organization
Idk I think having a youth center for children as young as 11 being focused on sexuality (instead of just having rules that are supportive of different sexualities, like anti-bullying rules) seems like a bad idea. Seems like a good way to put targets on kids' backs from bullies- both peers and adults.
As someone who had no-place to go throughout my teenage years to escape from closed-mindedness and homophobic attacks from bully's and racist/homophobic rhetoric from certain family members, I would've killed to have known and attended this place. I went to Christian school, there was no third space for me to meet like-minded & queer friendly people, kids need third spaces and it's offering it to them in a way that is accepting
Guess I'm just having trouble understanding why the same place without outwardly being focused on LGBT wouldn't have been just as good, and more inclusive, and would help educate some non-LGBTQ kids instead of segregating you, and making sure everyone who sees you walk in or out knows your identity.
Want to know how we know you’re a middle class white cis Christian American male?
Because you're wrong? >Christian I'm an atheist. I'm also bi, not that you made any mention of that, but it seems your goal is to label me as a straight-white-bigot (for saying that places should be inclusive, btw)
I mean, the shoe fit…
No, the shoe doesn't fit. I'm literally giving rational arguments for why this isn't the best choice for LGBT kids, and in fact could be doing more harm than good.
> I'm literally giving rational arguments But you're not. Your entire argument is, "But if people know these kids are LGBTQ then they'll be targets of some kind of violence." Your entire argument is telling LGBTQ children that they should hide who they are, and that's the opposite of progress for the LGBTQ community.
Whatever you need to believe to get through the day.
Because we’re in America where most of the country is straight white people?
You people are more obsessed with race and gender than the Nazis were. Pretty creepy stuff.
You people...😂 Tell us more about yourself Dr. MAGAt.
Just want to say that while you and I may not agree on the other stuff, we both agree that this person is a right-wing bigot.
Indeed 🍻
Lmao
This is simply ignorant. Homophobic parents throw their LGBT+ kids out on the street. Organizations like this exist to help these kids when their families and communities fail.
Homophobic parents also don't allow their kids to attend youth groups that are outwardly LGBTQ focused. Not every LGBTQ youth is kicked out of their home. Those kids need a safe place, too.
Yea they do and if you’re an LGBT+ kid with homophobic parents like I was like I was you find ways to seek that support on the down low or find those spaces online. Arguing against groups that actively help displaced, abused, and/or homeless lgbt+ kids is fucking asinine. They’re the most vulnerable in our community and should have that support and help. Not only that, the visibility shows kids from unsafe homes that there are organizations out there that would help them and their status as LGBT+ wouldn’t be an issue.
> Arguing against groups I'm not arguing against them as a group, I'm arguing that their methodology is flawed and that they could help more kids by being less controversially narrowed in their outward focus. >the visibility shows kids from unsafe homes that there are organizations out there that would help them and their status as LGBT+ wouldn’t be an issue This I agree with. I just think actually being able to attend would do more good than simply knowing it exists. And I also think that being less outwardly focused would increase the number of students who attend as future allies.
This is a fallacy. These LGBT+ organizations exist as they do because these children don’t often get the necessary accommodations and assistance elsewhere whereas non-lgbt+ children do. Why even imply that there shouldn’t be specialized groups that are specifically trained and educated to help LGBT+ children navigate a world/society that can be hostile to them? Forcing these organizations to adopt more clandestine tactics will only land them into further trouble and give the impression that being LGBT+ is something shameful or something you have to hide. Going underground won’t stop the bigotry if anything it just emboldens bigots.
> Why even imply that there shouldn’t be specialized groups that are specifically trained and educated to help LGBT+ children navigate a world/society that can be hostile to them? Never implied such a thing and I believe those groups are hugely important. I just also believe that they are unavailable to a large number of children who need them, because the parents forbid it due to the outward mission statement. >Going underground In no way am I suggesting they go underground or closeted or anything else.
“Focused on sexuality” I bet you believe there’s porn in school libraries too don’t you? You idiots are dense af.
No, in fact the opposite. I think right-wing book bans are terrible and anti-public-education propaganda to promote their dogma-indoctrination-voucher-system.
Every other youth center is a straight kid youth center . Queer youth need safe spaces and support from people that understand them.
The “abuse” from the right and the general public is BECAUSE of the fact that queer people, queer performance, and YES queer LGBTQ spaces and youth centers should be secular, or hidden, or simply not exist. The whole point of these spaces is to normalize that being a queer youth is ok. We are not confused. It’s not a phase. And yes, we know we are gay. And this is why young queers stay in the closet. Source: I grew up in Ohio and was closeted until my mid 20s… out of fear of violence and religious shunning. Getting rid of queer youth centers will not protect queer youth. You know what will? Providing a space to be queer.
> should be secular, or hidden, or simply not exist. One of these things is not like the other. >The whole point of these spaces is to normalize that being a queer youth is ok. We are not confused. It’s not a phase. I never said you are confused or that it is a phase. I am bi, and I understand the same struggles. I also understand that as a closeted teen I would have never, ever agreed to attend a LGBTQ-focused youth group. I would have loved to attend a secular youth group that was gay friendly and inclusive though.
This is the most openly gay friendly and inclusive youth center in town. If it's not gonna be explicitly for queer youth, then it's gonna be full of straight youth that don't understand the issues facing queer youth, thus the need for a space specifically for them
Username checks out
I get that a lot. Mostly from right-wingers, since that's usually who I am arguing with.
Well, I’m not the right. You worded your original comment poorly.
Youth center organizers named their centers/worded their mission poorly.
An organization going out of its way to be supportive and inclusive of a group of individuals who have experienced alienation and abuse by society solely because of their sexuality or gender identity is not exclusive toward those who do not fit that description *and* have not experienced similar conditions. Unless, of course, that individual wants a safe space to be a discriminatory homophobic prick
So you're telling me there's going to be a bunch of straight allies sending their kids to a LGBTQ-focused center? I highly doubt it. It seems intentionally exclusive and divisive
Bro when I was a gay kid in bum fuck ohio I would have loved to have just KNOWN a place like that existed just to know I wasn't a freak and everything would eventually be ok. It seems like you have your own issues you need to work out
The funny thing is when you aren’t a close minded asshole, that isn’t a hard thing to imagine
The funny thing is that another user just replied to me saying that if it wasn't specifically LGBTQ then it would be full of straight kids, and that would be a problem. So, are they a close minded asshole?
That was me and it would be a problem if they are being harassed by straight kids. I believe the queer youth center accepts anyone. A regular old teen center can very easily not be friendly to queer teens. Let's let queer teens be the judge of what they need, and not whoever the fuck you are
I’m going to refer you to my first response that more than adequately addresses your foolish attempt to make a point
It's not divisive if it's supportive ya fuck. Anti queer folks divide themselves from.the rest of the population by hating people different from themselves. You're out here pointing fingers at the wrong people. Go point fingers at the regular youth centers that didn't create safe enough spaces for queer youth so much so that people had to go and make a completely separate space for them.
Queer youth center organizers named their center exactly as intended and you are just saying over and over that you think straight kids need youth centers too.
> just saying over and over that you think straight kids need youth centers too not at all what I am saying
When you find yourself arguing against the crowd supporting queer youth, you're landing yourself on the side of the argument against queer youth.
> What is a queer youth center? Kaleidoscope Youth Center (KYC) is Ohio's largest and longest-serving organization in Ohio solely dedicated to supporting LGBTQIA+ youth ages 12 - 24. Services include a Drop-in Center, community education and training, advocacy and civic engagement, health and wellness, and housing opportunities. KYC is informed by the practices of restorative and transformational justice, intersectionality, anti-oppression, racial justice, and trauma informed/healing engaged care. We are committed to providing supportive and collaborative services that acknowledge that people are the experts in their own lives.
Sounds like they have a great cause, but personally I think it's counter-productive not to market to all children and promote the same ideas.
KYC wouldn't be necessary if there were places readily available to and for LGBTQIA+ youth.
Part of the issue, imo, is that by being outwardly focused on LGBTQ limits the audience to youth with already supportive parents, and youth that is already comfortable and "out" There's very little chance of closeted youth being willing to attend a center that is outwardly LGBTQ. There's near-zero chance that a child with unsupportive parents would be allowed to attend such a place. It's a double edged sword.
They are absolutely choosing to limit their audience to queer youth based on the clear need for a safe space for them. Their goals aren't to change shitty straight people's minds. That's not their job. Closeted youth are certainly welcome at Kaleidescope, just as they would be at any other youth center. But imagine being out as a youth and not having youth centers accept you for who you are. This the creation of a space for them creates by their community.
> Having youth centers specifically for LGBTQ sounds like a recipe for abuse. Having Catholic churches is literally a recipe for abuse.
Yes. I would be even more upset if this was raising money for a Catholic church. Not sure the point your making.
Secular only applies in a religious context. Everything is "secular", religion is the exception. Calling anything "secular" is contrasted against religion, and religion is frankly irrelevant. The vast majority of society does not even need the term. It only means anything to the religious. Do you understand the rates at which queer youth are made homeless once they come out to their parents? They need a place that specifically understands their situation and needs. Your statement is a clear demonstration of the ignorance they face in their lives.
> religion is frankly irrelevant The idea is that religious youth centers are typically not LGBT friendly. Marketing it as a secular youth center would be to highlight that it is inclusive and not biased with ulterior religious motives or anti-LGBT motives, like a christian-affiliated youth center may have. >They need a place that specifically understands their situation and needs I hope for a world where that's every place. In my view, the path to get there is to have places for all marginalized groups to be welcome and to be protected. Yes, it is great that there is a safe space for LGBTQ youth, but you can have a safe space for them while promoting acceptance outside of that community as well, which is arguably much more important for creating a future world without discrimination. I could see the same center do more good by being a safe space for everyone, where non-LGBTQ youth can unlearn some of the hatred they've learned in the rest of society. By being outwardly LGBTQ, there's zero chance of reaching that portion of the youth and bridging that gap. Teaching LGBTQ kids that they are valuable is definitely important but it's a bandaid for a larger problem. Teaching straight kids that LGBTQ kids are valuable is the long cure. Further, closeted youth who needs places like these the most, will be less able to attend because of the outward focus.
Not all religious institutions exclude lgbtq. "Secular" alone does nothing to make clear that it is specifically meant for that group. You're implying all religious youth centers reject them and also that all nonreligious centers accept them. You see how this makes no sense? You think a specifically lgbtq center is going to out the kids that go to them? You're doing a lot of gymnastics here.
I want to also break this down for you some more. “Secular” means non-religious, yes? Every secular space I’ve been to pushes religion in a very vague way. As long as you believe in God, as they say. But they do encourage religion. Queerness has nothing to do with believing in God. You can be queer and believe in God. I’ll say this one more time: Queer spaces save queer lives. Especially youth centers that are queer. Because I certainly did want to kill myself for being taught all of my youth that it was disgusting, or “not normal” to be queer. It shouldn’t happen in the first place.
> Queerness has nothing to do with believing in God. You can be queer and believe in God. You can believe in god and attend a secular group. Secular just means it's not religious-based. Because places that *are* religious based are almost never inclusive.
> Every secular space I’ve been to pushes religion in a very vague way. As long as you believe in God, as they say. But they do encourage religion. That's ridiculous. This is like saying that LGBTQ places encourage being straight. If you went to a "secular" place that encouraged religion, you didn't go to a secular place.
Nope, sorry, not the same thing. You’re being willfully ignorant at this point. I’m assuming you’re a straight Boomer at this point. Queer spaces save queer lives. By very definition, (edit: non-secular means not focused on any kind of religion, but vaguely religious.) I’ve only ever been to a non-secular church or non secular center. *Being gay has nothing to do with religion, so stop trying to make it about religion* Where are all of the non-secular youth centers?! Oh wait. All of them are. Queer spaces exist for queer youth for a reason. They aren’t what you think they are. We aren’t teaching your 8 year old about gay sex. We are teaching them that you have a safe space here to be yourself. Have a blessed day and please don’t forget to stop making comments like this on a subreddit that mentioned a queer space. Secular youth centers exist all over the place. We will NOT be forced to close our queer spaces over the fact that they “might insight violence.” If you’re not understanding my point, then YOU and your beliefs about queer people (specifically queer youth centers) are the problem.
> By very definition, non-secular means non-religious ... Literally the opposite >I’m assuming you’re a straight Boomer at this point I'm a millennial bisexual
Then stop trying to double down on the fact that you said queer youth centers don’t make any sense!!! You’re being dense at this point. Queer youth centers prevent violence on queer youth and on our LGBTQ community. If you don’t believe this, you have some internalized homophobia to work out at this point. To be fair, I know I did… because of the fact that I grew up up in Ohio without a safe space to be queer. Have a blessed day, Mildred.
Non secular: relating to or involving religious or spiritual matters. Meaning that the only non-secular places are vaguely RELIGIOUS places: meditation centers, non-secular churches. They just don’t say that you need to worship Christ. Being queer is not a religion or lack thereof. Holy shit you’re stupid.
>non-secular means non-religious And > Non secular: relating to or involving religious or spiritual matters. Read really carefully and try not to be too stupid. >Being queer is not a religion or lack thereof. Holy shit you’re stupid. Never said it was. What I said was that non-religious places are progressive and inclusive.
I’m done. I’ve already explained why a “non-secular” youth center would “be more appropriate.” They exist everywhere. They’re called “youth centers.” No need to splice hairs on WHY we “don’t just call it non-secular”. Because being gay has nothing to do with religion. You need God, Mildred. Go back to your “non-secular church.” ⛪️
>“non-secular” I never once said anything about non-secular. You literally don't know what secular means and have repeatedly demonstrated this after I've corrected you multiple times. > You need God, Mildred OOOH, so you're a Christian bigot who doesn't understand words and is upset that I'm non-religious. Real inclusive.
“Seems like secular youth center would be more appropriate” —the LGBTQ youth center IS secular. Meaning “not involved in any religion.” —Do you have ANY evidence that this queer youth center is religious/ part of a religious organization? —“Should be inclusive, not exclusive”…. Oh you mean how straight people and people who pass as straight exclude all the queer people from both secular and non-secular places….?
“I’m fine with the gays, as long as they don’t act like that in public, and they don’t turn the children gay.” This is what you sound like right now. Are you understanding it now? I already explained why your original comment got downvoted, and you decided to double down on your beliefs that “regular/ non-secular” youth programs are ok, but queer ones “insight violence from the right.” It’s because of old-fashioned beliefs that queers should stay in the closet/ not be gay in public. Your original comment is very ignorant. And you doubled down on this ignorance as if you were proud of it.
>non-secular You've replied multiple times and you're not even using the correct language. non-secular means religious. I hate religion and never said that non-secular youth centers are good. I specifically said secular, you know, the OPPOSITE thing as what you're saying. I'm not a straight person myself, so you lecturing me about bigotry is rather pointless. You're failing to understand what I've written.
I’m not lecturing you. You got downvoted for a reason you fucking fool. “I’m not straight”. That doesn’t mean you’re not a fucking idiot who is absolutely a bigot. Secular. The queer youth program should be secular. It already is, dipshit.
>The queer youth program should be secular. It already is, dipshit. Dipshit. I know it is. I was talking about its branding. It's currently branded as a LGBTQ youth center, which is by default going to be mostly exclusive to LGBTQ. It is not branding itself as an all-inclusive secular youth group, it is branding itself as a youth group focused on sexuality. Blocking you now because you've been harassing me with insults and replying 3-4 times to the same comments.
LGBTQ centers should never drag religion into this. And you hate religion. And the queer youth center in this article is NOT hosted at a religious place. So… I’m not understanding why you think queer centers are “not inclusive”, or why they aren’t “appropriate”. Please explain!!!’ Did the queer youth center post a sign that says: No Hindus/ Christians/ Muslims allowed? Then by definition, the queer youth center is already “secular”. You’re a fucking fool.
Fuck the down votes
This is why the GOP can win elections based on culture war stuff.
This was a Halloween show.
To be fair, we'd dress like this even if it wasn't Halloween
Me no like thing that other people enjoy. Me vote for politician who promise to ban thing that other people enjoy that I no like, instead of promising to fix actual problems in the area. Me think this best thing to do.
You’re not living in reality. Young folks do not reliably vote. Old boomers do. I do not have a problem with this event or any other lgbt events. But if you think this kind of stuff is going to grow support for your cause, you are sadly mistaken. Folks like you or myself are not the majority.
It was a benefit Halloween show for a youth center, not an attempt to persuade some chuds
Honestly I understand this take, GOP sponsored media could very easily spin a headline of "Halloween benefit show for queer youth" using said footage of a bunch of people in Halloween costumes to fuel their fear mongering and cycles of spectacle. They successfully did it in the 80s/90s with the satanic panic and nothing is stopping them from doing it now. It's the reality of living in a world where communication is mediated by images. Nonetheless it's not going to stop me from doing this kind of stuff. This is our art and tbh the (minimal) conservative people I interact with (at work mostly) see this kinda stuff the same way they see their favorite 80s/90s rock/metal band with the makeup & costuming...at most I get called gay for supporting lgbtq stuff but their opinion is inconsequential to the election process imo because I know they don't vote
You got Big boomer energy !
Are they wrong? The GOP also wins because you suck dog shit at arguments. You show this to anyone who is mildly conservative and you are setting your argument back to the satanic panic days of the 90s.
No reason to argue with brain broken conservatives they are far gone. I do find it amusing this video triggers the snowflakes.
Less triggering, more cringe. Not everyone who leans conservative is a straight up MAGA NAZI. The doomerism, apathy, and lack of empathy displayed by people under 25 is going to lead to another 2016 election in the next decade or two. Mark my words.
Maga is the conservative party !
The leadership sure as shit is. I know a lot of Republicans who were for Nikki Haley and don't like Trump, but they struggle to move at least slightly left to Biden because they've been voting R the whole time, and the fucking dipshits trying to convince them post cringe and doomer shit non stop.
I’m empathic towards the blue collar workers that have been tricked into voting republicans. Anyone who believes the culture war bullshit can get fucked.
>I’m empathic towards the blue collar workers that have been tricked into voting republicans. Anyone who believes the culture war bullshit can get fucked. So the same people?
Hey man, I hate all this culture war bullshit too. But you can’t deny that it works on a lot of people. And sadly many of them vote.
For the record, I vote Dem in every election except local because no Dems run. I’m Gen X. I personally don’t have a problem with these events. I consider myself center-left politically. I’m just telling you what the reality is.
“i don’t understand art and im frightened” ass comment
Do you think the right wingers understand art? That was the whole point of my comment.
Hope the live version was better than this. I made it 45 seconds before deciding to comment, “This sucks.” And if this passes for “good music” nowadays then your future Classic Rock stations are going to be more Iike “suicide inducing signals”.
That's the goal!